Interesting side thought, what if the disabling field that stalled the Enterprise near the Klingon border via the 72 torp-icicles was projectable by the Vengeance directly (or it's drone that shoots torps). Defiant getting knocked out by Breen disable is what killed the original one.
Interesting side thought, what if the disabling field that stalled the Enterprise near the Klingon border via the 72 torp-icicles was projectable by the Vengeance directly (or it's drone that shoots torps). Defiant getting knocked out by Breen disable is what killed the original one.
that is an interesting point. How much did the film say about that?
Still think that Defiant would've smoked Nero too.Weapon;s officer blindfolded, Troi in command.
You're forgetting the bit where Nero disables the Enterprise-E with a single shot. Remember, there are not many things in Trek that are more dangerous than a Romulan who is near-insane with grief and rage, and who has a kilometers-long Borg-enhanced semi-sentient uber-dreadnought.
EDIT: Oh, and he also tears apart a 24th-century Prime Universe Klingon fleet commanded by Worf.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
Interesting side thought, what if the disabling field that stalled the Enterprise near the Klingon border via the 72 torp-icicles was projectable by the Vengeance directly (or it's drone that shoots torps). Defiant getting knocked out by Breen disable is what killed the original one.
I don't recall a disabling field. IIRC, it was a coolant system malfunction caused by Section 31 sabotage which forced Chekov to pull an emergency stop.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
USS Defiant from DS9, as-is, vs JJ-verse Vengeance as shown in Into Darkness? One is way older technology. Defiant all the way. It'll be like taking IJN Yamato against HMS Victory. It's not going to end well for the older ship.
More like a modern fast attack craft against the HMS Warrior IMO. The size difference would still be a factor, despite the technology gap.
Plus it depends on what changed technologically over the years.
I remember in another discussion about the Vengeance someone pointed out that modern naval warships don't really have the firepower to deal with the armored hulls of older warships since they aren't expected to deal with that sort of thing anymore.
That may be the case in real naval combat but not so much in Trek. 24th century stuff just is better than the 23rd stuff even with the slight upgrade from "studying" (really just seeing that it's way superior cause it blew up before they could actually "study" anything) the Narada. Shields are stronger, energy weapons hit harder, torpedos are much more devastating.
Pitting the Vengeance vs. the Defiant is like pitting a medieval battering ram vs. a modern tank. It's just too much of a technology gap.
garaks usual banter aside as funny as it is at times, the negh'var was at least 10x bigger then the defiant, but the defiants small size and speed easily got the better of the negh'var. so if there was a defiant vs vengence it would simply be the defiant if it managed to get up close where the vengence is mostly useless, near the hull. however at range if the vengence captain was right on it, the defiant wouldnt stand much of a chance.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
JJ Verse are not more "militaristic". Those morons flew right into an unknown "planetary emergency" without even sending a probe ahead....
It wouldn't have mattered because they couldn't receive any transmissions from Vulcan space. Also, they figured that they would get a briefing once they arrived, as the disaster was happening to a core world.
And how does the fact that they didn't send probes make a society more or less militaristic? I submit that the fact that AR Starfleet ships are more heavily armed than Prime Starfleet ships is enough.
EDIT: The KDF is more militaristic than Prime Starfleet, yet when the Rotarran heads out to rescue the B'Moth, do they launch probes? No, they warp right to it. Probes can't help in the rescue attempt, and if there is an enemy attack in progress, they just announce their sender's impending arrival.
Post edited by themetalstickman on
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
JJ Verse are not more "militaristic". Those morons flew right into an unknown "planetary emergency" without even sending a probe ahead....
Okay, list the times they did that on one of the shows.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Still think that Defiant would've smoked Nero too.Weapon;s officer blindfolded, Troi in command.
You're forgetting the bit where Nero disables the Enterprise-E with a single shot. Remember, there are not many things in Trek that are more dangerous than a Romulan who is near-insane with grief and rage, and who has a kilometers-long Borg-enhanced semi-sentient uber-dreadnought.
EDIT: Oh, and he also tears apart a 24th-century Prime Universe Klingon fleet commanded by Worf.
I am! Wow ! I totally missed the that awesome scene in the movie. I also missed the Epic battle against Worf.....wait, oh that happened in a storybook.
I don't count fan fiction novels as canon.
Even if CBS got their cut.
Still think that Defiant would've smoked Nero too.Weapon;s officer blindfolded, Troi in command.
You're forgetting the bit where Nero disables the Enterprise-E with a single shot. Remember, there are not many things in Trek that are more dangerous than a Romulan who is near-insane with grief and rage, and who has a kilometers-long Borg-enhanced semi-sentient uber-dreadnought.
EDIT: Oh, and he also tears apart a 24th-century Prime Universe Klingon fleet commanded by Worf.
I am! Wow ! I totally missed the that awesome scene in the movie. I also missed the Epic battle against Worf.....wait, oh that happened in a storybook.
I don't count fan fiction novels as canon.
Even if CBS got their cut.
Officially licensed comics aren't "fan fiction."
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
Couldn't the defiant...ya know...just hide inside the big TRIBBLE gap in the middle of the saucer and go PEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEW etc?
Funnily enough a Defiant-class did that to a D'deridex in one of the novels. Flew right into the gap between the hulls and basically just spun in a circle, split it in half like an English muffin.
That tactic never made sense to me. You have to survive getting close enough, then fly though their shields.... If you can do that it doesn't matter what part of the ship you're shooting at.
now the way it was done in one game's cutscene was way cooler. (having the Defiant fly inside a D'D to borrow it's shields)
Interesting side thought, what if the disabling field that stalled the Enterprise near the Klingon border via the 72 torp-icicles was projectable by the Vengeance directly (or it's drone that shoots torps). Defiant getting knocked out by Breen disable is what killed the original one.
I don't recall a disabling field. IIRC, it was a coolant system malfunction caused by Section 31 sabotage which forced Chekov to pull an emergency stop.
Where is the Section 31 sabotage from? I don't recall them ever saying exactly what caused it in the movie, only heavily implied it by having Scotty go off the rails and leave the ship since they didn't know what was in the torps and that they could somehow miss-balance the Warp core.
Where is the Section 31 sabotage from? I don't recall them ever saying exactly what caused it in the movie, only heavily implied it by having Scotty go off the rails and leave the ship since they didn't know what was in the torps and that they could somehow miss-balance the Warp core.
Shortly after his capture, Khan says to Kirk "Why aren't we moving? An unexpected malfunction, perhaps in your warp core?" I don't believe it was explicitly stated, but it was very heavily implied.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
Everyone is talking about the Tech advantage. The alternate Federation is more advanced for its time than the prime Federation. I mean, the size alone might tell you about the technology (e.g. structural integrity field) needed to create and power something that large.
I'm not sure this has been thought through by whoever created it. A few photos for scale:
Gonna state the obvious here, the Defiant is dwarfed by the Excelsior, which is in turn massively dwarfed by the Vengeance, or "Dreadnought-class."
And some people still wonder why the Prime-universe, 24th-century Federation is considered weak and pacifistic. They built a mosquito to fight the Borg.
Another one vote for the Defiant..BEST ship EVER!!!
Where is the Section 31 sabotage from? I don't recall them ever saying exactly what caused it in the movie, only heavily implied it by having Scotty go off the rails and leave the ship since they didn't know what was in the torps and that they could somehow miss-balance the Warp core.
Shortly after his capture, Khan says to Kirk "Why aren't we moving? An unexpected malfunction, perhaps in your warp core?" I don't believe it was explicitly stated, but it was very heavily implied.
He knows about the torps and their significance, being that there are 72 of them, so it could be that he knew Marcus would fit them with something to strand the Enterprise (to die as a martyr and start the Klingon-Federation war he so desperately wanted) or actually built that functionality in himself to make sure a 'test firing' of the new torps would go awry and he could pick up his comrades later from the miss-fires that left the launching ship unable to retrieve the prototype torps.
Still think that Defiant would've smoked Nero too.Weapon;s officer blindfolded, Troi in command.
You're forgetting the bit where Nero disables the Enterprise-E with a single shot.
It wasn't a single shot, he hit her several times and she still managed to survive despite the fact she was hit while her shields were down. Compare that to the Alt-1701 which had her shields up when hit and they dropped to 30% and failed to prevent a hull breach with a single torpedo hit. Another Torpedo probably would have finished her off and Sulu even says they couldn't take another hit like that.
Still think that Defiant would've smoked Nero too.Weapon;s officer blindfolded, Troi in command.
You're forgetting the bit where Nero disables the Enterprise-E with a single shot.
It wasn't a single shot, he hit her several times and she still managed to survive despite the fact she was hit while her shields were down. Compare that to the Alt-1701 which had her shields up when hit and they dropped to 30% and failed to prevent a hull breach with a single torpedo hit. Another Torpedo probably would have finished her off and Sulu even says they couldn't take another hit like that.
The Alt-1701 is after the Narada attack on the 1701-E by several years(relative to Narada, Nero, et al.), so it's likely that the Narada incorporated adaptations specifically for ships with their shields up between then and that encounter.
Still think that Defiant would've smoked Nero too.Weapon;s officer blindfolded, Troi in command.
You're forgetting the bit where Nero disables the Enterprise-E with a single shot.
It wasn't a single shot, he hit her several times and she still managed to survive despite the fact she was hit while her shields were down. Compare that to the Alt-1701 which had her shields up when hit and they dropped to 30% and failed to prevent a hull breach with a single torpedo hit. Another Torpedo probably would have finished her off and Sulu even says they couldn't take another hit like that.
The Alt-1701 is after the Narada attack on the 1701-E by several years(relative to Narada, Nero, et al.), so it's likely that the Narada incorporated adaptations specifically for ships with their shields up between then and that encounter.
Actually the Narada engaged the Kelvin minutes after her battle with the Enterprise-E and her weapons were still slicing the ship to pieces even with her shields up. The alt-1701 was decades more advanced than the Kelvin and her shields were just as ineffective as the Kelvin's. Plus Nero and company were in prison for that time, so it's not like they had spent the time modifying the Narada's weapons. She tore those ships to pieces because she's naturally 100+ years more advanced.
Considering the size difference, it seems perfectly sensible for the Defiant to simply sit in the area with the least/least powerful weapons and burn it down from there. The difference in manoeuvrability alone would allow the Defiant to dictate the flow of the battle.
How come the Narada is now pictured as a super strong, heavily armed dreadnought when Nero himself says in the movie: "In my time, where I come from, this is a simple mining vessel".
How come the Narada is now pictured as a super strong, heavily armed dreadnought when Nero himself says in the movie: "In my time, where I come from, this is a simple mining vessel".
Because it's a simple mining vessel covered in Borg c.rap
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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My character Tsin'xing
You're forgetting the bit where Nero disables the Enterprise-E with a single shot. Remember, there are not many things in Trek that are more dangerous than a Romulan who is near-insane with grief and rage, and who has a kilometers-long Borg-enhanced semi-sentient uber-dreadnought.
EDIT: Oh, and he also tears apart a 24th-century Prime Universe Klingon fleet commanded by Worf.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
I don't recall a disabling field. IIRC, it was a coolant system malfunction caused by Section 31 sabotage which forced Chekov to pull an emergency stop.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
That may be the case in real naval combat but not so much in Trek. 24th century stuff just is better than the 23rd stuff even with the slight upgrade from "studying" (really just seeing that it's way superior cause it blew up before they could actually "study" anything) the Narada. Shields are stronger, energy weapons hit harder, torpedos are much more devastating.
Pitting the Vengeance vs. the Defiant is like pitting a medieval battering ram vs. a modern tank. It's just too much of a technology gap.
garaks usual banter aside as funny as it is at times, the negh'var was at least 10x bigger then the defiant, but the defiants small size and speed easily got the better of the negh'var. so if there was a defiant vs vengence it would simply be the defiant if it managed to get up close where the vengence is mostly useless, near the hull. however at range if the vengence captain was right on it, the defiant wouldnt stand much of a chance.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
It wouldn't have mattered because they couldn't receive any transmissions from Vulcan space. Also, they figured that they would get a briefing once they arrived, as the disaster was happening to a core world.
And how does the fact that they didn't send probes make a society more or less militaristic? I submit that the fact that AR Starfleet ships are more heavily armed than Prime Starfleet ships is enough.
EDIT: The KDF is more militaristic than Prime Starfleet, yet when the Rotarran heads out to rescue the B'Moth, do they launch probes? No, they warp right to it. Probes can't help in the rescue attempt, and if there is an enemy attack in progress, they just announce their sender's impending arrival.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Okay, list the times they did that on one of the shows.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I don't count fan fiction novels as canon.
Even if CBS got their cut.
Officially licensed comics aren't "fan fiction."
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Officially licensed comics aren't "fan fiction." [/quote]
Sorry, my post wasn't in a "licensed," funny book. Maybe you'd take it seriously.
To be fair, Picard told her to crash it the second time.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
that just means Picards wedding gift to them was him ordering Diana to double her insurance rates on ships.
My character Tsin'xing
Where is the Section 31 sabotage from? I don't recall them ever saying exactly what caused it in the movie, only heavily implied it by having Scotty go off the rails and leave the ship since they didn't know what was in the torps and that they could somehow miss-balance the Warp core.
Shortly after his capture, Khan says to Kirk "Why aren't we moving? An unexpected malfunction, perhaps in your warp core?" I don't believe it was explicitly stated, but it was very heavily implied.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Defiant all the way...BTW love your GIF.
Another one vote for the Defiant..BEST ship EVER!!!
He knows about the torps and their significance, being that there are 72 of them, so it could be that he knew Marcus would fit them with something to strand the Enterprise (to die as a martyr and start the Klingon-Federation war he so desperately wanted) or actually built that functionality in himself to make sure a 'test firing' of the new torps would go awry and he could pick up his comrades later from the miss-fires that left the launching ship unable to retrieve the prototype torps.
It wasn't a single shot, he hit her several times and she still managed to survive despite the fact she was hit while her shields were down. Compare that to the Alt-1701 which had her shields up when hit and they dropped to 30% and failed to prevent a hull breach with a single torpedo hit. Another Torpedo probably would have finished her off and Sulu even says they couldn't take another hit like that.
The Alt-1701 is after the Narada attack on the 1701-E by several years(relative to Narada, Nero, et al.), so it's likely that the Narada incorporated adaptations specifically for ships with their shields up between then and that encounter.
Actually the Narada engaged the Kelvin minutes after her battle with the Enterprise-E and her weapons were still slicing the ship to pieces even with her shields up. The alt-1701 was decades more advanced than the Kelvin and her shields were just as ineffective as the Kelvin's. Plus Nero and company were in prison for that time, so it's not like they had spent the time modifying the Narada's weapons. She tore those ships to pieces because she's naturally 100+ years more advanced.
Because it's a simple mining vessel covered in Borg c.rap
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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