It's being said that the Iconians are the Preserver's "first children". Problem is, the Iconian civilization dates to about 200,000 years ago while the Preservers went out billions of years ago. (This also precludes them having anything to do with the planet of Hollywood Sioux refugees from TOS.) The Iconians aren't even as old as (say) the TKon.
The end of their civilization was 200,000 years ago. No mention is made of how long they had been around before that. If they were the first of the Preservers' children, they would have likely had a lot of breathing room in which to develop. Them living for even tens of millions of years before the younger species bombarded them is within the realm of possibility.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
no, the other one is the one is an old man in the corner behind the curtain when Dorthy and her 3 friends heard a voice "Please just ignore that little old man in the corner" when they are in emerald city.
The VOY ep "Dragon's Teeth" says that as of the fall of the Vaadwaur civilization c. 900 years ago the Borg had only assimilated a few systems. Whatever may have gotten into a novel notwithstanding, the Borg are not that old.
So are you stating that Guinan didn't know what she was talking about?
The problem is that FC, VOY and ENT had terrible writing that ignored and messed up most of what was established before. The only thing I can even halfway make sense of these events (which are canon) is that what happened in First Contact actually rewrote history and the Borg species completely, as in: TNG Borg are actually a completely different incarnation of the Borg than what we see past the temporal incursion. I also personally think the "Queen" is a product of Locutus integration of a semi-self-conscious mind into the collective and the temporal incursion created her because TNG Borg don't have a queen - actualy, the mere existence of the queen totally breaks and negates the concept of the Borg that was introduced in "Q, Who".
If I could magically do that I'd erase Borg canon outside of TNG since it's nonsensical. In the above quoted instance I'd rather say seven doesn't know what she's talking about as it's not plausible for her to retain the collective knowledge and databases after separation fromt he collective in her sole mind.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The VOY ep "Dragon's Teeth" says that as of the fall of the Vaadwaur civilization c. 900 years ago the Borg had only assimilated a few systems. Whatever may have gotten into a novel notwithstanding, the Borg are not that old.
But then, there's a lot wrong with the chronology already. It's being said that the Iconians are the Preserver's "first children". Problem is, the Iconian civilization dates to about 200,000 years ago while the Preservers went out billions of years ago. (This also precludes them having anything to do with the planet of Hollywood Sioux refugees from TOS.) The Iconians aren't even as old as (say) the TKon. And the idea of the Voth civilization being 75 million years old is just silly. They'd either be having tea and scones with the Organians or they'd have died out a long time ago. N.B. that the Voth should be bumping up against all of the aforementioned races but evidently have not.
Of course, this is what you get when you try to forge long-term continuity out of stuff churned out by people who couldn't keep the sex of a cat straight.
We don't know that the Iconian civilization is only 200k years old. We know that they left / were driven off 200k years ago, which is kind of a hint that they were around before that.
The VOY ep "Dragon's Teeth" says that as of the fall of the Vaadwaur civilization c. 900 years ago the Borg had only assimilated a few systems. Whatever may have gotten into a novel notwithstanding, the Borg are not that old.
So are you stating that Guinan didn't know what she was talking about?
If he ain't, I am, because it doesn't even make sense. I'm willing to bet that eventually, that will get retconned, because the very idea of the Borg having been around that long is ludicrous. Truth has to be self-referentially consistent.
why is this story sounding more and more like Babylon 5, it sounded like the other first once save them the last time from total destruction. i have a feeling that they felt in indebted to them for saving what is left of there race, that why they are doing this. this whole war thing is to repay a debt.
"You ask why we give our ships computer normal emotions. Do you really want a warship incapable of loyalty?"
You travel through time to encounter the Iconians just before they get wiped out to either make sure they all die or to simply observe them and learn more. However, it turns out they are benevolent and act friendly towards you, allowing you to explore their world and learn more about them.
Then, as they get bombed, you use an emergency time travel which transports you a few years after the bombing (since you don't have time for a proper jump), but the surviving Iconians follow you and get their mind destroyed, turning them evil.
You flee and hide from them until you can get back to your own time before they can kill you.
And then, as you're gone, a cutscene plays showing they didn't want to kill you but wanted you to be part of the Whole as the one who rescued them from oblivion. Unfortunately, after 200k years, they don't remember what you looked like but still fondly remember the "Other", the alien who "saved" them, and are still looking for him/her, or at least his/her remains to find closure.
The VOY ep "Dragon's Teeth" says that as of the fall of the Vaadwaur civilization c. 900 years ago the Borg had only assimilated a few systems.
You are taking the Vaadwaur's claims at face value. I think that makes you Vaadwuar in the old Talaxian language. :P
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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1. The player character is a vehicle of perspective. They're not involved with the game. They're a part of it but only up to the point of being a facilitator to events (moving things along for other characters to create a plot around). That's why we got Tovan in for the Romulan Republic, the reactions and characterization come in from him, not us. Therefore its highly, highly unlikely that Cryptic will make us (particularly a complete blank of an us through the KDF and FED) the central figure to the entire star trek universe. No one would be able to say much about it (because we don't really exist as a real character) which would very definitely prevent the story from dealing with the event (despite how monumentally important it would be.)
You might get that out of a bioware RPG (in fact we did both Knights of the Old Republics), but STO is a very different game. The same twist isn't going to work.
2. The iconians have given NO indication that we're the key figure in the survival of their species (despite how they've enshrined the Other in their lore/culture). Nothing held back, nothing said, nothing even gestured. If the twist is coming its going to be the most arbitrary possible (might as well be Neelix instead of us for how well its been incorporated into the game at this point.)
3. The Other seems to have been part of "the Whole." How the hell are you going to write the player into that? Are we actually an Iconian in denial/disguise? Do you think that every player captain out there is going to be satisfied that their own derived backstory is now bunk? Of course not, this is our character/ship/crew, not Cryptic's.
4. The Iconians know that the other saved them. If that was an act of compassion from a time traveling player, to spare them from a genocide possible with temporal weaponry, then why the TRIBBLE have they declared war on all of the galaxy AFTER THE FACT?! Having the player do it (or any other time traveling party) pretty much means that reconciliation will not take place (even though as a ST property that's what's most needed.)
I think you can safely say that the other will be some other figure in the Star Trek universe (any non-corporal alien or enigmatic ancient species would do). The player is the last person to consider (and no, that doesn't mean that it's the best one to choose).
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Let me state this a bit more simply.
[...]
4. The Iconians know that the other saved them. If that was an act of compassion from a time traveling player, to spare them from a genocide possible with temporal weaponry, then why the TRIBBLE have they declared war on all of the galaxy AFTER THE FACT?! Having the player do it (or any other time traveling party) pretty much means that reconciliation will not take place (even though as a ST property that's what's most needed.)
You stopped at "player character", didn't you?
My hypothesis says it is an accident and the PC don't attempt to rescue them (since they know time travel destroys Iconian minds), but the Iconians in their twisted, destroyed mind remember an alien saved them, but they can't remember what they looked like, but are still trying.
As for declaring war on all the galaxy after being saved, well, when one person "saves" you and a coalition of species bombs you, you'll want to find this person while repay the other species for what they've done.
As I said, it's just an hypothesis that could be interesting with some tweaks
People seem to be leaning on the Fek'lhri, but if you pay attention to certain clues elsewhere in the game, you find subtle hints that the Fek'lhri we faced in the Klingon story arc were in fact Iconian machinations - some sort of genetically engineered boogieman to occupy the most stalwart fighting force in the known galaxy. I can't tell you where these clues are (and some of them have probably been nerfed anyway) but I KNOW they're there, so I'm not calling this a "theory."
The Hur'q may be a viable option, but given dialogue, that would put them on the wrong side of the galaxy - let me explain:
Sela's correspondence via the Iconian rep system (of which I've only gotten three levels in) mentions someone we are familiar with that will not listen to us, having long since hidden away deep in the Beta Quadrant. It may be a stretch, but of those mentioned and which I can recall, I think the Organians are a distinct possibility. They would be powerful enough to play the Iconians' better half - unlike the Hur'q - and seemed quite annoyed with the "younger races" of the galaxy. It is conceivable that they left "explored space" for "privacy" in the far-flung reaches of the deeper Beta Quadrant. Where this theory falls down, however, is that Sela claims they'll only talk to her. While it's conceivable she'd try guile and deceit to interact with them, they aren't fools, and would know better than to talk to Sela - trickery or not. Unless they see something in her which the rest of the galaxy does not - which I can imagine - they aren't prone to bitterness or surface considerations. Still, it's just a theory, and a bit of a stretch.
After all, my theory was always that the Iconian seen in "Surface Tension," now revealed as M'tara, was the only one left - and we see how wrong that theory was.
Please not that when I wrote my earlier post, there was only one page on this thread, so some of it may not make sense. My point and theory still stand, however.
Also, one of the leading theories is that "the Other" is a group or individual consisting of male Iconians. I urge you to play "Blood of Ancients" again and pay attention to the Cutscene played before you enter the power plant. That Iconian sounds like neither T'ket, nor a woman. I could be wrong - as I've said before. Anyway, the Iconians appear to be some sort of energy beings. If so, they would more than likely be a-sexual in nature.
Please not that when I wrote my earlier post, there was only one page on this thread, so some of it may not make sense. My point and theory still stand, however.
Also, one of the leading theories is that "the Other" is a group or individual consisting of male Iconians. I urge you to play "Blood of Ancients" again and pay attention to the Cutscene played before you enter the power plant. That Iconian sounds like neither T'ket, nor a woman. I could be wrong - as I've said before. Anyway, the Iconians appear to be some sort of energy beings. If so, they would more than likely be a-sexual in nature.
I'd gathered that either the Iconians were asexual, or that both genders were in fact represented, based on what we've heard. To me, T'Ket came off as male, whereas M'Tara comes off fairly clearly as female.
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I'd gathered that either the Iconians were asexual, or that both genders were in fact represented, based on what we've heard. To me, T'Ket came off as male, whereas M'Tara comes off fairly clearly as female.
I'd gathered that either the Iconians were asexual, or that both genders were in fact represented, based on what we've heard. To me, T'Ket came off as male, whereas M'Tara comes off fairly clearly as female.
Hmm...possibly so. That said, I wonder if our pronouns don't quite capture the whole of the matter...they do like to pretend they are far beyond us, after all...
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That said, I wonder if our pronouns don't quite capture the whole of the matter...they do like to pretend they are far beyond us, after all...
The thought occurred to me too. After all, the Undine are he, she, something, something, something, so why not the Iconians?
Even the Andorians like to confuse us, and they're supposed to be equal partners to humanity.
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Is the dialogue in the 9th tale of the war the same as in the feature episode? I'll try get the exact dialogue when I replay the episode on Thursday (weekly rewards) but the way the Iconians are talking does make it sound like "the other" refers to the male half of the species.
While the Iconians do use individual names, the way they speak stresses a very group oriented philosophy. When talking to each other, they usually refer to proposed actions by saying "we should", instead of "I think we should". The only time this is broken is when T'ket states that L'Miren's interest in the mortals is disturbing. Firstly, this is the only time on record that one Iconian speaks of the intent of another Iconian in the singular. T'ket's remark is also either an insult or aggressive wording as L'Miren states that she has to choose careful wording to diffuse the situation. Given that, I think the fact that T'ket refers to L'Miren in the singular is actually provocative in Iconian etiquette. More importantly, all the Iconian's actions are heavily geared towards the occupation of the entire group (given as the "whole"), despite the "whole" having been damaged.
Let me just list all the "Whole" and "Other" pieces in the order they appear in the story:
"Her passion had always been an essential part of the Whole..."
"The Whole was shattered..."
"But the Other …"
"The Other has not been seen since the Day of Fire.
"The Other is still a part of us," L'Miren said. "The Whole must be as One."
The important part here is that only the Iconians and the "Other" are referenced as being part of the whole. There has never (to my knowledge) been any reference to the servitors or lesser races as being part of the Whole.
The most pivotal piece here is completely contained in the last sentence ["The Other is still a part of us," L'Miren said. "The Whole must be as One."] "The fact that the Iconians (in their short screen time) always identify themselves as (and strive to be) a single entity (queue group chanting), suggests to me that the "Other" could also be a group that the Iconians choose to identify as a single entity (the "Other" may or may not view itself as a single entity if it is composed of multiple beings).
And finally, while hardly hard evidence, given that we get to view the entirety of the Iconian invasion force, they all seem to be distinctively female lookin - that or they like to wear strips of metal detailing where TRIBBLE usually appear on lesser species -.-
As proposed previously in this forum. I think the "Other" is the male half of the species - who left because "them TRIBBLE be crazy".
I also personally think the "Queen" is a product of Locutus integration of a semi-self-conscious mind into the collective and the temporal incursion created her because TNG Borg don't have a queen - actualy, the mere existence of the queen totally breaks and negates the concept of the Borg that was introduced in "Q, Who".
Except that she was pretty much retconned to be on that cube that assimilated Picard in First Contact, so it really can't be a shadow of his mind left behind. Also, because she acts nothing like him. I had no problem with the Queen, as I saw her more of a computer processor than an actual... leader.
The VOY ep "Dragon's Teeth" says that as of the fall of the Vaadwaur civilization c. 900 years ago the Borg had only assimilated a few systems. Whatever may have gotten into a novel notwithstanding, the Borg are not that old.
So are you stating that Guinan didn't know what she was talking about?
If he ain't, I am, because it doesn't even make sense. I'm willing to bet that eventually, that will get retconned, because the very idea of the Borg having been around that long is ludicrous. Truth has to be self-referentially consistent.
Except as pointed out by the guy above, Borg history appears to be consistently inconsistent. How is it ludicrous that the Borg have been around that long? Perhaps they were merely limited to a few star systems for centuries and centuries until they assimilated a warp drive, or maybe my theory that someone put a serious hurting on the Borg sometime ago is correct? (Don't act like it isn't possible, as we've seen differently.) All we know is Borg memory is fragmentary "900 years ago," but nothing is ever said about before or where they even came from.
why is this story sounding more and more like Babylon 5, it sounded like the other first once save them the last time from total destruction. i have a feeling that they felt in indebted to them for saving what is left of there race, that why they are doing this. this whole war thing is to repay a debt.
Last stand at Coriana 6? ...let me just prepare the nukes!
Beta, LTA, CE, Multiple preorder Versions, all Addon Packs except AoY, nearly all KDF/Rom and ~50% of all Fedships, over 25 LockboxShips, Endurer of Atari's "Year of Hell", but...
Except that she was pretty much retconned to be on that cube that assimilated Picard in First Contact, so it really can't be a shadow of his mind left behind. Also, because she acts nothing like him. I had no problem with the Queen, as I saw her more of a computer processor than an actual... leader. (...)
The thing is, I am pretty much allergic to retcons . When Picard said that she was there I... pretty much like to quote a famous line from a different sci-fi franchise from the seventies
That's why I said the whole thing rewrote history. She was there after the time incursion happened, so naturally Picard encountered her back then. I am well aware that the ships are supposed to be not affected by the incursion, but that doesn't really make sense - just as the Queen doesn't make any sense. The principle of a collective consciousness is that all drones are one. The Borg is pretty much one organism, all drones are one. There doesn't need to be some individual in "control" or "bringing order to chaos" - it's a collective. The collective minds "bring order" - it's like the majority of minds determine the action for every single drone at any point in the collective. That's an awesome and alien concept that makes the Borg so fearsome. They dont really have a agenda aside from perfecting themselves. The Queen negates all of that to merely a vampiress with lots of drones doing as she pleases and she is without a doubt very emotional and mustache twirling evil in her ways - the complete opposite of what the Borg is supposed to be. When Locutus was conceived to negotiate for the collective he was unique, individual while still being integrated in the collective. That would leave it's mark - like I said, this is how I try to manage the ill-written mess that the Borg became later on
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Please not that when I wrote my earlier post, there was only one page on this thread, so some of it may not make sense. My point and theory still stand, however.
Also, one of the leading theories is that "the Other" is a group or individual consisting of male Iconians. I urge you to play "Blood of Ancients" again and pay attention to the Cutscene played before you enter the power plant. That Iconian sounds like neither T'ket, nor a woman. I could be wrong - as I've said before. Anyway, the Iconians appear to be some sort of energy beings. If so, they would more than likely be a-sexual in nature.
I don't buy the idea that gender is something an "energy being" would not have. Smells like dualism to me, and dualism stinks (the philosophical expression is "Dualism is metaphysically unsatisfying.").
Except that she was pretty much retconned to be on that cube that assimilated Picard in First Contact, so it really can't be a shadow of his mind left behind. Also, because she acts nothing like him. I had no problem with the Queen, as I saw her more of a computer processor than an actual... leader. (...)
The thing is, I am pretty much allergic to retcons . When Picard said that she was there I... pretty much like to quote a famous line from a different sci-fi franchise from the seventies
That's why I said the whole thing rewrote history. She was there after the time incursion happened, so naturally Picard encountered her back then. I am well aware that the ships are supposed to be not affected by the incursion, but that doesn't really make sense - just as the Queen doesn't make any sense. The principle of a collective consciousness is that all drones are one. The Borg is pretty much one organism, all drones are one. There doesn't need to be some individual in "control" or "bringing order to chaos" - it's a collective. The collective minds "bring order" - it's like the majority of minds determine the action for every single drone at any point in the collective. That's an awesome and alien concept that makes the Borg so fearsome. They dont really have a agenda aside from perfecting themselves. The Queen negates all of that to merely a vampiress with lots of drones doing as she pleases and she is without a doubt very emotional and mustache twirling evil in her ways - the complete opposite of what the Borg is supposed to be. When Locutus was conceived to negotiate for the collective he was unique, individual while still being integrated in the collective. That would leave it's mark - like I said, this is how I try to manage the ill-written mess that the Borg became later on
Some insect species are collectives, each with a queen. Cf. The Book of Merlyn, by T.H. White.
Some insect species are collectives, each with a queen. Cf. The Book of Merlyn{/i], by T.H. White.
True. And the Borg were actually originally planned to be insectoid - but that is different from what was realized in "Q, who" and as such the insect analogy doesn't work so well anymore when talking about a race of cybernetic beings seeking perfection in becoming one with their technology.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I don't buy the idea that gender is something an "energy being" would not have. Smells like dualism to me, and dualism stinks (the philosophical expression is "Dualism is metaphysically unsatisfying.").
If they have no need of gender why would they need to have gender?
For all we know their reproduction does not need dimorphic sexes.
Do amoebae, bacteria, or viruses have genders?
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Some insect species are collectives, each with a queen. Cf. The Book of Merlyn{/i], by T.H. White.
True. And the Borg were actually originally planned to be insectoid - but that is different from what was realized in "Q, who" and as such the insect analogy doesn't work so well anymore when talking about a race of cybernetic beings seeking perfection in becoming one with their technology.
Perhaps not, but it's a meaningless quibble now. It would be like insisting that the Romulans didn't have an order of secret agents that manipulated every level of their society simply because we didn't see any sign of it in their original appearances. Little was known about how the Collective functioned in that first episode, only that they operated on a hive mind, so any complaint about later additions is pointless.
I don't buy the idea that gender is something an "energy being" would not have. Smells like dualism to me, and dualism stinks (the philosophical expression is "Dualism is metaphysically unsatisfying.").
If they have no need of gender why would they need to have gender?
For all we know their reproduction does not need dimorphic sexes.
Do amoebae, bacteria, or viruses have genders?
Gender has nothing to do with the ability to reproduce. Or does a woman past menopause no longer qualify as "female"? Are prepubescent children genderless? Gender and sex are not coterminous.
Comments
The end of their civilization was 200,000 years ago. No mention is made of how long they had been around before that. If they were the first of the Preservers' children, they would have likely had a lot of breathing room in which to develop. Them living for even tens of millions of years before the younger species bombarded them is within the realm of possibility.
The problem is that FC, VOY and ENT had terrible writing that ignored and messed up most of what was established before. The only thing I can even halfway make sense of these events (which are canon) is that what happened in First Contact actually rewrote history and the Borg species completely, as in: TNG Borg are actually a completely different incarnation of the Borg than what we see past the temporal incursion. I also personally think the "Queen" is a product of Locutus integration of a semi-self-conscious mind into the collective and the temporal incursion created her because TNG Borg don't have a queen - actualy, the mere existence of the queen totally breaks and negates the concept of the Borg that was introduced in "Q, Who".
If I could magically do that I'd erase Borg canon outside of TNG since it's nonsensical. In the above quoted instance I'd rather say seven doesn't know what she's talking about as it's not plausible for her to retain the collective knowledge and databases after separation fromt he collective in her sole mind.
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We don't know that the Iconian civilization is only 200k years old. We know that they left / were driven off 200k years ago, which is kind of a hint that they were around before that.
If he ain't, I am, because it doesn't even make sense. I'm willing to bet that eventually, that will get retconned, because the very idea of the Borg having been around that long is ludicrous. Truth has to be self-referentially consistent.
You travel through time to encounter the Iconians just before they get wiped out to either make sure they all die or to simply observe them and learn more. However, it turns out they are benevolent and act friendly towards you, allowing you to explore their world and learn more about them.
Then, as they get bombed, you use an emergency time travel which transports you a few years after the bombing (since you don't have time for a proper jump), but the surviving Iconians follow you and get their mind destroyed, turning them evil.
You flee and hide from them until you can get back to your own time before they can kill you.
And then, as you're gone, a cutscene plays showing they didn't want to kill you but wanted you to be part of the Whole as the one who rescued them from oblivion. Unfortunately, after 200k years, they don't remember what you looked like but still fondly remember the "Other", the alien who "saved" them, and are still looking for him/her, or at least his/her remains to find closure.
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Let me state this a bit more simply.
1. The player character is a vehicle of perspective. They're not involved with the game. They're a part of it but only up to the point of being a facilitator to events (moving things along for other characters to create a plot around). That's why we got Tovan in for the Romulan Republic, the reactions and characterization come in from him, not us. Therefore its highly, highly unlikely that Cryptic will make us (particularly a complete blank of an us through the KDF and FED) the central figure to the entire star trek universe. No one would be able to say much about it (because we don't really exist as a real character) which would very definitely prevent the story from dealing with the event (despite how monumentally important it would be.)
You might get that out of a bioware RPG (in fact we did both Knights of the Old Republics), but STO is a very different game. The same twist isn't going to work.
2. The iconians have given NO indication that we're the key figure in the survival of their species (despite how they've enshrined the Other in their lore/culture). Nothing held back, nothing said, nothing even gestured. If the twist is coming its going to be the most arbitrary possible (might as well be Neelix instead of us for how well its been incorporated into the game at this point.)
3. The Other seems to have been part of "the Whole." How the hell are you going to write the player into that? Are we actually an Iconian in denial/disguise? Do you think that every player captain out there is going to be satisfied that their own derived backstory is now bunk? Of course not, this is our character/ship/crew, not Cryptic's.
4. The Iconians know that the other saved them. If that was an act of compassion from a time traveling player, to spare them from a genocide possible with temporal weaponry, then why the TRIBBLE have they declared war on all of the galaxy AFTER THE FACT?! Having the player do it (or any other time traveling party) pretty much means that reconciliation will not take place (even though as a ST property that's what's most needed.)
I think you can safely say that the other will be some other figure in the Star Trek universe (any non-corporal alien or enigmatic ancient species would do). The player is the last person to consider (and no, that doesn't mean that it's the best one to choose).
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Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
You stopped at "player character", didn't you?
My hypothesis says it is an accident and the PC don't attempt to rescue them (since they know time travel destroys Iconian minds), but the Iconians in their twisted, destroyed mind remember an alien saved them, but they can't remember what they looked like, but are still trying.
As for declaring war on all the galaxy after being saved, well, when one person "saves" you and a coalition of species bombs you, you'll want to find this person while repay the other species for what they've done.
As I said, it's just an hypothesis that could be interesting with some tweaks
The Hur'q may be a viable option, but given dialogue, that would put them on the wrong side of the galaxy - let me explain:
Sela's correspondence via the Iconian rep system (of which I've only gotten three levels in) mentions someone we are familiar with that will not listen to us, having long since hidden away deep in the Beta Quadrant. It may be a stretch, but of those mentioned and which I can recall, I think the Organians are a distinct possibility. They would be powerful enough to play the Iconians' better half - unlike the Hur'q - and seemed quite annoyed with the "younger races" of the galaxy. It is conceivable that they left "explored space" for "privacy" in the far-flung reaches of the deeper Beta Quadrant. Where this theory falls down, however, is that Sela claims they'll only talk to her. While it's conceivable she'd try guile and deceit to interact with them, they aren't fools, and would know better than to talk to Sela - trickery or not. Unless they see something in her which the rest of the galaxy does not - which I can imagine - they aren't prone to bitterness or surface considerations. Still, it's just a theory, and a bit of a stretch.
After all, my theory was always that the Iconian seen in "Surface Tension," now revealed as M'tara, was the only one left - and we see how wrong that theory was.
Also, one of the leading theories is that "the Other" is a group or individual consisting of male Iconians. I urge you to play "Blood of Ancients" again and pay attention to the Cutscene played before you enter the power plant. That Iconian sounds like neither T'ket, nor a woman. I could be wrong - as I've said before. Anyway, the Iconians appear to be some sort of energy beings. If so, they would more than likely be a-sexual in nature.
I'd gathered that either the Iconians were asexual, or that both genders were in fact represented, based on what we've heard. To me, T'Ket came off as male, whereas M'Tara comes off fairly clearly as female.
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According to the "Tales...", T'Ket is a woman, too. http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9365483-star-trek-online:-tales-of-the-war-#9
To me they all are women.
Hmm...possibly so. That said, I wonder if our pronouns don't quite capture the whole of the matter...they do like to pretend they are far beyond us, after all...
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The thought occurred to me too. After all, the Undine are he, she, something, something, something, so why not the Iconians?
Even the Andorians like to confuse us, and they're supposed to be equal partners to humanity.
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While the Iconians do use individual names, the way they speak stresses a very group oriented philosophy. When talking to each other, they usually refer to proposed actions by saying "we should", instead of "I think we should". The only time this is broken is when T'ket states that L'Miren's interest in the mortals is disturbing. Firstly, this is the only time on record that one Iconian speaks of the intent of another Iconian in the singular. T'ket's remark is also either an insult or aggressive wording as L'Miren states that she has to choose careful wording to diffuse the situation. Given that, I think the fact that T'ket refers to L'Miren in the singular is actually provocative in Iconian etiquette. More importantly, all the Iconian's actions are heavily geared towards the occupation of the entire group (given as the "whole"), despite the "whole" having been damaged.
Let me just list all the "Whole" and "Other" pieces in the order they appear in the story:
"Her passion had always been an essential part of the Whole..."
"The Whole was shattered..."
"But the Other …"
"The Other has not been seen since the Day of Fire.
"The Other is still a part of us," L'Miren said. "The Whole must be as One."
The important part here is that only the Iconians and the "Other" are referenced as being part of the whole. There has never (to my knowledge) been any reference to the servitors or lesser races as being part of the Whole.
The most pivotal piece here is completely contained in the last sentence ["The Other is still a part of us," L'Miren said. "The Whole must be as One."] "The fact that the Iconians (in their short screen time) always identify themselves as (and strive to be) a single entity (queue group chanting), suggests to me that the "Other" could also be a group that the Iconians choose to identify as a single entity (the "Other" may or may not view itself as a single entity if it is composed of multiple beings).
And finally, while hardly hard evidence, given that we get to view the entirety of the Iconian invasion force, they all seem to be distinctively female lookin - that or they like to wear strips of metal detailing where TRIBBLE usually appear on lesser species -.-
As proposed previously in this forum. I think the "Other" is the male half of the species - who left because "them TRIBBLE be crazy".
Except that she was pretty much retconned to be on that cube that assimilated Picard in First Contact, so it really can't be a shadow of his mind left behind. Also, because she acts nothing like him. I had no problem with the Queen, as I saw her more of a computer processor than an actual... leader.
Except as pointed out by the guy above, Borg history appears to be consistently inconsistent. How is it ludicrous that the Borg have been around that long? Perhaps they were merely limited to a few star systems for centuries and centuries until they assimilated a warp drive, or maybe my theory that someone put a serious hurting on the Borg sometime ago is correct? (Don't act like it isn't possible, as we've seen differently.) All we know is Borg memory is fragmentary "900 years ago," but nothing is ever said about before or where they even came from.
Last stand at Coriana 6? ...let me just prepare the nukes!
The thing is, I am pretty much allergic to retcons
That's why I said the whole thing rewrote history. She was there after the time incursion happened, so naturally Picard encountered her back then. I am well aware that the ships are supposed to be not affected by the incursion, but that doesn't really make sense - just as the Queen doesn't make any sense. The principle of a collective consciousness is that all drones are one. The Borg is pretty much one organism, all drones are one. There doesn't need to be some individual in "control" or "bringing order to chaos" - it's a collective. The collective minds "bring order" - it's like the majority of minds determine the action for every single drone at any point in the collective. That's an awesome and alien concept that makes the Borg so fearsome. They dont really have a agenda aside from perfecting themselves. The Queen negates all of that to merely a vampiress with lots of drones doing as she pleases and she is without a doubt very emotional and mustache twirling evil in her ways - the complete opposite of what the Borg is supposed to be. When Locutus was conceived to negotiate for the collective he was unique, individual while still being integrated in the collective. That would leave it's mark - like I said, this is how I try to manage the ill-written mess that the Borg became later on
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I don't buy the idea that gender is something an "energy being" would not have. Smells like dualism to me, and dualism stinks (the philosophical expression is "Dualism is metaphysically unsatisfying.").
Some insect species are collectives, each with a queen. Cf. The Book of Merlyn, by T.H. White.
True. And the Borg were actually originally planned to be insectoid - but that is different from what was realized in "Q, who" and as such the insect analogy doesn't work so well anymore when talking about a race of cybernetic beings seeking perfection in becoming one with their technology.
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If they have no need of gender why would they need to have gender?
For all we know their reproduction does not need dimorphic sexes.
Do amoebae, bacteria, or viruses have genders?
Perhaps not, but it's a meaningless quibble now. It would be like insisting that the Romulans didn't have an order of secret agents that manipulated every level of their society simply because we didn't see any sign of it in their original appearances. Little was known about how the Collective functioned in that first episode, only that they operated on a hive mind, so any complaint about later additions is pointless.
Gender has nothing to do with the ability to reproduce. Or does a woman past menopause no longer qualify as "female"? Are prepubescent children genderless? Gender and sex are not coterminous.