Yeah, so I forgot about Seska, no need to be condescending about it.
Seska was a mad *****, but she was still a Cardassian in a series, so that shouldn't really be overlooked. There was also the Galor that featured in the pilot episode too.
I think he was pointing out the number three Flash rather than being condescending. Isnt there something about the Cardassians having a ritual about having things in sets of three?
I think he was pointing out the number three Flash rather than being condescending. Isnt there something about the Cardassians having a ritual about having things in sets of three?
Just flat out wrong, and your criteria is bizarre as well. There are more recurring cardassian characters than there are romulan, even the minor villains get almost the same amount of screen time. The cardassians have had far more episodes that went into their society/history/technology/politics in DS9 alone than we had of the romulans in the entire franchise. We learn about the Tal'shiar in one TNG episode; we had multiple episodes of DS9 that dealt with the Obsidian Order. We learn about the romulan political system in one two-parter of TNG and one episode of DS9; the actions and politics of Central Command vs Obsidian Order vs Detapa Council heavily outweighs that. In terms of technology, way, way, WAY more episodes of DS9 dealt with cardassian technology because the station was cardassian and frequently didn't work well with starfleet technology, much to O'Brien's continual suffering. It was even the subject of an episode where they boarded an abandoned Nor-class space station. Garak would tell Bashir (and by extension, us) all about cardassian literature, art, culture and the like, the episode where Major Kira gets kidnapped and cosplays as some Legate's daughter again goes into the society. We learn more about how cardassians regard family in episodes like that and the ones with Dukat finding out about Ziyal and trying to reconnect with her, or the episode where Tom Riker stole the Defiant and Dukat points out to Sisko that because of this he missed an important event in his son's life. And how his son would grow up resenting humans because of it.
The cardassians were introduced in TNG to set up DS9, and this lead to the Maquis were introduced to set up Voyager - a conflict that involved the cardassians. That's three shows where cardassians featured even on a minor level. I am willing to bet if we tally up the numbers the cardassians would have more appearances in the entire franchise.
EDIT Yep, sure enough, if you count every 'appearance' the roms have 59 across the entire franchise, and cardassians have over 70 in DS9 alone.
^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^
Also, DS9 was a Cardassian space Station. Which appeared in nearly every episode of DS9.
Even counting the soft-canon novels people under 45 will most likely never have the chance to read, the Cardassians are far more developed than the leering bad guys that were the Romulans.
Back OT, leaks suggest we're getting a T6 B'rel at the same time as the Defiant.
However - the two most obvious choices have yet to be covered. The Vor'cha has a powerful case thanks to its appearance in the alt-future of ENT: Azati Prime, fighting alongside the Ent-J and Dauntless. There is at least some evidence that a Vor'cha variant will be in-service until the 26th century.
The other is the near-immortal K't'inga; which has done everything from threaten NX-01, to ambushing Voyager in the Delta Quadrant, to fighting on the frontlines of the Dominion War.
Now, the problem is that both are technically Battlecruisers; but I'd see the Vor'cha as the Science BC, and the K't'inga as a borderline escort Tac BC, to complement the "Eng" BC that is the Negh'tev.
Romulan are present in TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, they have 2 dedicated movies (ST: Nemesis and reseted Star Trek from J.J. Abrams).
Cardassian are not present in TOS, they appear in later seasons in TNG (and have less episodes then Romulans), are present in DS9 and VOY. No Cardassian-related movie. No appearance in ENT.
As I said, even Borg is better developed. Cardassian developmnet is at Ferengi level.
Sorry, but you're totally downplaying the amount of time the Cardassians were featured in DS9. Shoot, the whole race even had a development arc... from conquerers, to reformed power, to conquered, to freedom fighters.
Even though I'm a big fan of the JJ-verse, ST09 really featured one Romulan. The race and culture of the Romulans were not the focus of that film. And, of course they weren't in ENT or TOS... the Federation didn't encounter them yet.
Sorry, but between what we saw on-screen in DS9, and with what we get in Andrew Robinson's (Garak) book A Stitch in Time... there's plenty to tap into.
I don't have the time to listen to it all the way through right now, but i'm pretty sure it's in there somewhere.
It may have been an older interview though, as he does come on quite frequently
Geko has never said a Cardassian faction is off the table... in fact, kinda the opposite.
It's one of a few options the devs have/are considering for a potential future addition. The Borg Cooperative is also one... but, they've also thought about Mirror Universe, the Dominion (don't see this one happening)... can't remember if there are others.
A token appearance in Voyager doesn't really count, if you ask me.
1. Seska was a Cardassian.
2. Dreadnought was a piece of Cardassian technology.
3. The holo-doctor that was of questionable moral standing, who saved Torres.
4. The Galor that appeared in "Caretaker."
Sure, they weren't a *focus* of Voyager, but they weren't a "token" appearance.
1. Seska was a Cardassian.
2. Dreadnought was a piece of Cardassian technology.
3. The holo-doctor that was of questionable moral standing, who saved Torres.
4. The Galor that appeared in "Caretaker."
Sure, they weren't a *focus* of Voyager, but they weren't a "token" appearance.
... huh. That's more than I remembered. All I could remember was Seska being Seska.
1. "Appearance" doesn't mean "development" - Morn from Quark bar appeared in ~90 DS9 Episodes, but there were actually only one episode developing this character (and none episode focused on developing his race/culture). On the other hand nearly each episode with Q strongly developed this character.
2. "Character development" doesn't mean "faction development". There were a lot of episodes focused on Garak and Dukat personal character development (family relations, ambitions, fears etc.) with only minor focus on their faction.
Actually the most developed non-playable faction is Borg, then Dominion (yes, there is a lot of content related to Jem Hadar & Vorta & Changelings, a lot about their culture, politics, goals and technology), then Ferengi/Cardassian.
... huh. That's more than I remembered. All I could remember was Seska being Seska.
\
Exactly. Appearance of character being member of X race doesn't mean development of lore of X race - even if character play major role in show.
That works against the romulans as much as it does the cardassians, even if your bizarre criteria should be accepted (it shouldn't).
2. "Character development" doesn't mean "faction development". There were a lot of episodes focused on Garak and Dukat personal character development (family relations, ambitions, fears etc.) with only minor focus on their faction.
Why? The characters are the most important part about a story.
How do you get across that the cardassians are space fascists? By having a villain who's a self-justifying megalomaniac.
How do you get across that there's a dissident movement in said society? By introducing a character or two who are dissidents and show what this means for them.
How do you get across that said society has an extensive surveillance state with extreme powers? By introducing us to a number of characters who belong to the Obsidian Order.
How do you get across that family matters to the society and character of the cardassian people? By having characters you've introduced grapple with family dramas and suffer consequences for things like having affairs or betraying your father.
Without characters NONE of that would turn out as compelling drama but as a series of exposition info bites. Which is the worst way to develop anything in fiction.
1. Seska was a Cardassian.
2. Dreadnought was a piece of Cardassian technology.
3. The holo-doctor that was of questionable moral standing, who saved Torres.
4. The Galor that appeared in "Caretaker."
Sure, they weren't a *focus* of Voyager, but they weren't a "token" appearance.
And of course, the whole reason the Voyager even went on its fateful mission in the Badlands were the Cardassians. The Maquis only existed to fight the Cardies.
Though that doesn't really mean that it meant "developing" of the Cardasians.
That is what happened in DS9, in spades. DS9 overall developed Klingons, Cardassians, Ferengi and Dominion more than any of the previous or later series developed the races they featured. (I decidedly omit the Romulans, because despite their importance in one of the most mentioned DS9 episode, overall we don't go into much more detail on them then TNG did on the Cardassians, the Ferengi, the Romulans or the Klingons.)
In a way, DS9 was where the real world-building happened, since we didn't just visit the planet of the week that could be forgotten immediately after.
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1. "Appearance" doesn't mean "development" - Morn from Quark bar appeared in ~90 DS9 Episodes, but there were actually only one episode developing this character (and none episode focused on developing his race/culture). On the other hand nearly each episode with Q strongly developed this character.
2. "Character development" doesn't mean "faction development". There were a lot of episodes focused on Garak and Dukat personal character development (family relations, ambitions, fears etc.) with only minor focus on their faction.
Actually the most developed non-playable faction is Borg, then Dominion (yes, there is a lot of content related to Jem Hadar & Vorta & Changelings, a lot about their culture, politics, goals and technology), then Ferengi/Cardassian.
\
Exactly. Appearance of character being member of X race doesn't mean development of lore of X race - even if character play major role in show.
You're cherry-picking.
Sure, one person does not (and should not) define a race. However, Dukat and Garak are two different characters within themselves. Dukat signifies the arrogance of the Cardassian military, supported by the comments of Macet from TNG's "Chain of Command." Garak represents the plotting and shady side of Cardassian intelligence, backed up by characters like Tain and the lady from DS9's "Defiant."
The holo-doctor from VOY's "Nothing Human" represents the Cardassian government's stance on inhumane medical practices as an "ends justify the means" view of the world. Likewise, VOY's "Dreadnaught" shows that the same government will also construct a missile the size of a small starship to accomplish it's goals. Yet, Cardassians like we saw in DS9's "Destiny" or "Profit and Loss" show that not all Cardassians agree with this.
And that is what we saw on-screen... you're telling me that this isn't a fleshed-out species?
*was gonna say Miranda but since Cryptic/CBS or whoever has an unexplainable hate towards anything TOS/TMP there's no point. Yet the Excelsior might actually see a Tier 6 version because reasons.
Side note: these novels are widely available for download in a variety of electronic formats. I have all of them in ebook.
Also, if there is ever a T6 Sovereign/Regent with any hybrid Intel seating, it would very seriously tempt me to leave my beloved Eclipse.
The last time I had looked them up Amazon had wanted something like $14.00 on Kindle, but they've dropped to below $8.00, so I will be reading them.
To the guy arguing for Romulans being better developed,
It's not that the Romulans aren't interesting, they are very interesting. However to say they are far better developed over the Cardassians is patently absurd. In fact I would say the Cardassians are the most developed Trek species behind only Klingons, Bajorans, and maybe Vulcans. (They don't open up that much in any of the shows.). Even more so than future human culture which seems obsessed with aggressive assimilation of others, adult onesies, and an unlimited hunger for knowledge.
K'tinga Battlecruiser - The appearance should be updated somehow without detracting too much from the original design. Koro'tinga model could be used, but no thin bars and with beefier nacelles. Slimmed down mission pod is good and forward command center is good. Neck needs beefing up with thin brace removal.
Vor'cha Battlecruiser - See above comment. Mission pod should be the one used for the Vor'kang design and nacelles should be the armored version used on the Tor'khat. Neck should be the Tor'khat neck. Keep the main Vor'cha hull.
B'rel Bird of Prey - See above comment. No appearance changes whatsoever.
Gecko must love seeing these sorts of threads. "Dear Cryptic, Please let me give you $35 to repurchase something I already own. Thx!" Its sprinting on a treadmill.
I would pay real money for a full, t-6 version of the Patrol Escort family:
Even though the ships were NEVER intended to have the nacelles they have (They were put on as an afterthought) I find them to be the best, well-rounded escorts, imho.
Preferably in the form of Exeter. There's your T6 lineage ship. They don't want a T5/6 Connie but they should be amiable to Exeter and her stablemates (Excalibur CLass and Vesper Class)
I would love a T6 Sovereign, T6 Defiant, T6 BoP, T6 Vor'Cha, T6 Akira. Those are the ships that I loved to fly.
And I will certainly not mention certain postings, from certain parties, about certain things, which may certainly be coming at a certain time. I am fairly certain that I screwed that up some how.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
Comments
I think he was pointing out the number three Flash rather than being condescending. Isnt there something about the Cardassians having a ritual about having things in sets of three?
^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^
Also, DS9 was a Cardassian space Station. Which appeared in nearly every episode of DS9.
Even counting the soft-canon novels people under 45 will most likely never have the chance to read, the Cardassians are far more developed than the leering bad guys that were the Romulans.
I thought it was the Ramans
However - the two most obvious choices have yet to be covered. The Vor'cha has a powerful case thanks to its appearance in the alt-future of ENT: Azati Prime, fighting alongside the Ent-J and Dauntless. There is at least some evidence that a Vor'cha variant will be in-service until the 26th century.
The other is the near-immortal K't'inga; which has done everything from threaten NX-01, to ambushing Voyager in the Delta Quadrant, to fighting on the frontlines of the Dominion War.
Now, the problem is that both are technically Battlecruisers; but I'd see the Vor'cha as the Science BC, and the K't'inga as a borderline escort Tac BC, to complement the "Eng" BC that is the Negh'tev.
Preferably with intel and/or pilot seats.
I need my favorite sci bird! :mad:
Sorry, but you're totally downplaying the amount of time the Cardassians were featured in DS9. Shoot, the whole race even had a development arc... from conquerers, to reformed power, to conquered, to freedom fighters.
Even though I'm a big fan of the JJ-verse, ST09 really featured one Romulan. The race and culture of the Romulans were not the focus of that film. And, of course they weren't in ENT or TOS... the Federation didn't encounter them yet.
Sorry, but between what we saw on-screen in DS9, and with what we get in Andrew Robinson's (Garak) book A Stitch in Time... there's plenty to tap into.
Yes they had three...errrm....lets not go there!
EDIT: Actually I've got that wrong...it was the Centari lol
Geko has never said a Cardassian faction is off the table... in fact, kinda the opposite.
It's one of a few options the devs have/are considering for a potential future addition. The Borg Cooperative is also one... but, they've also thought about Mirror Universe, the Dominion (don't see this one happening)... can't remember if there are others.
1. Seska was a Cardassian.
2. Dreadnought was a piece of Cardassian technology.
3. The holo-doctor that was of questionable moral standing, who saved Torres.
4. The Galor that appeared in "Caretaker."
Sure, they weren't a *focus* of Voyager, but they weren't a "token" appearance.
... huh. That's more than I remembered. All I could remember was Seska being Seska.
Seconded.
And of course, the Connie.
2. "Character development" doesn't mean "faction development". There were a lot of episodes focused on Garak and Dukat personal character development (family relations, ambitions, fears etc.) with only minor focus on their faction.
Actually the most developed non-playable faction is Borg, then Dominion (yes, there is a lot of content related to Jem Hadar & Vorta & Changelings, a lot about their culture, politics, goals and technology), then Ferengi/Cardassian.
\
Exactly. Appearance of character being member of X race doesn't mean development of lore of X race - even if character play major role in show.
*cough* Command Cruisers *cough*
Don't ask for things that already exist.
Why? The characters are the most important part about a story.
How do you get across that the cardassians are space fascists? By having a villain who's a self-justifying megalomaniac.
How do you get across that there's a dissident movement in said society? By introducing a character or two who are dissidents and show what this means for them.
How do you get across that said society has an extensive surveillance state with extreme powers? By introducing us to a number of characters who belong to the Obsidian Order.
How do you get across that family matters to the society and character of the cardassian people? By having characters you've introduced grapple with family dramas and suffer consequences for things like having affairs or betraying your father.
Without characters NONE of that would turn out as compelling drama but as a series of exposition info bites. Which is the worst way to develop anything in fiction.
And of course, the whole reason the Voyager even went on its fateful mission in the Badlands were the Cardassians. The Maquis only existed to fight the Cardies.
Though that doesn't really mean that it meant "developing" of the Cardasians.
That is what happened in DS9, in spades. DS9 overall developed Klingons, Cardassians, Ferengi and Dominion more than any of the previous or later series developed the races they featured. (I decidedly omit the Romulans, because despite their importance in one of the most mentioned DS9 episode, overall we don't go into much more detail on them then TNG did on the Cardassians, the Ferengi, the Romulans or the Klingons.)
In a way, DS9 was where the real world-building happened, since we didn't just visit the planet of the week that could be forgotten immediately after.
Rom: Don't care!
KDF: B'Rel
Box: Temporal Ships including Mirror variants
> <
> <
>
You're cherry-picking.
Sure, one person does not (and should not) define a race. However, Dukat and Garak are two different characters within themselves. Dukat signifies the arrogance of the Cardassian military, supported by the comments of Macet from TNG's "Chain of Command." Garak represents the plotting and shady side of Cardassian intelligence, backed up by characters like Tain and the lady from DS9's "Defiant."
The holo-doctor from VOY's "Nothing Human" represents the Cardassian government's stance on inhumane medical practices as an "ends justify the means" view of the world. Likewise, VOY's "Dreadnaught" shows that the same government will also construct a missile the size of a small starship to accomplish it's goals. Yet, Cardassians like we saw in DS9's "Destiny" or "Profit and Loss" show that not all Cardassians agree with this.
And that is what we saw on-screen... you're telling me that this isn't a fleshed-out species?
Also, if there is ever a T6 Sovereign/Regent with any hybrid Intel seating, it would very seriously tempt me to leave my beloved Eclipse.
Eclipse Class Intel Cruiser U.S.S. Dioscuria NX-91121-A - Interactive Crew Roster
Gonna throw the red flag here.
The Phantom is not the Defiant. The Command BCs are not the Excelsior.
KDF: T6 K't'inga and B'rel
ROM: T6 Dhelan
*was gonna say Miranda but since Cryptic/CBS or whoever has an unexplainable hate towards anything TOS/TMP there's no point. Yet the Excelsior might actually see a Tier 6 version because reasons.
"Let them eat static!"
The last time I had looked them up Amazon had wanted something like $14.00 on Kindle, but they've dropped to below $8.00, so I will be reading them.
To the guy arguing for Romulans being better developed,
It's not that the Romulans aren't interesting, they are very interesting. However to say they are far better developed over the Cardassians is patently absurd. In fact I would say the Cardassians are the most developed Trek species behind only Klingons, Bajorans, and maybe Vulcans. (They don't open up that much in any of the shows.). Even more so than future human culture which seems obsessed with aggressive assimilation of others, adult onesies, and an unlimited hunger for knowledge.
Oh and on-topic, T6 Defiant or bust.
Perhaps I should consult the most honored sages...
Vor'cha Battlecruiser - See above comment. Mission pod should be the one used for the Vor'kang design and nacelles should be the armored version used on the Tor'khat. Neck should be the Tor'khat neck. Keep the main Vor'cha hull.
B'rel Bird of Prey - See above comment. No appearance changes whatsoever.
Which doesn't mean most of the trek fanbase reads them.
Even though the ships were NEVER intended to have the nacelles they have (They were put on as an afterthought) I find them to be the best, well-rounded escorts, imho.
Not *thrilled* with that silhouette... which may or may not exist, of course.
You should.
And I will certainly not mention certain postings, from certain parties, about certain things, which may certainly be coming at a certain time. I am fairly certain that I screwed that up some how.