perhaps stop to consider that in a game thats "all about your story" not everyone's story includes the RR? Or perhaps it involves the RR having a brief rise and fall to a successor power? Considering how often Tal Shiar manage to get into RR facilities(even proconsul D'Tan's office) I'm still not sure how you can't see them or the imperial remnants not fielding their own versions of RR designed vessels. About 1/3 of the characters my fleet mates have utterly ignore STO's plot and have their own RP'd out stories.
That's all fine, I'm not saying there's an issue with any of that. I'm just saying that, if you're not RPing a Republic Romulan, then it's silly to want the ships made for the Republic. That kinda missing the point of RPing outside the Republic's sphere.
It's a little strange to be saying "I don't want to be a Republic Romulan... but I want all the stuff they get anyways."
The D'deridex is the iconic ship of the Romulan Star Empire throughout most of Star Trek.
Claiming that the Star Empire shouldn't have access to it at endgame is absurd.
If I can, fly a Adapted destroyer with the IRW prefix on my Federation character, not being able to fly under the IRW prefix as a Romulan, on the most iconic Romulan ship is ridiculous.
Likely just another oversight or slapped-together job by Cryptic most likely. Like the Tal Shiar uniform missing pieces.
When did I ever say RP wasn't reasonable? I just said that, if you're RPing a Romulan that isn't part of the Republic, it doesn't make sense to have a Republic ship. It makes sense to have one of the ships from the Empire.
So why can't part of my RP be that I have captured a Republic ship? Saying I can't is unreasonable.
So why can't part of my RP be that I have captured a Republic ship? Saying I can't is unreasonable.
I didn't say you couldn't. Just use the "none" option as the prefix. Or leave the RRW in place, because that's what the warbird would've been commissioned as originally.
Unless you're saying that the Star Empire is in such a poor shape that they have to fully-commission Republic / enemy ships under their banner.
The RSE has 'access' to every D'deridex except the newest one - which is a D'khellra first and foremost.
I appreciate head canon every now and then but that's all the above statement is. There is no more proof that a ship or a design hasn't been stolen then there is, leaving unofficial player assumptions.
I didn't say you couldn't. Just use the "none" option as the prefix. Or leave the RRW in place, because that's what the warbird would've been commissioned as originally.
Not if the plans or the ship was stolen. I still can't quite wrap my head around the issue that, it seems sometimes that you think it impossible for a Republic design to be stolen and copied in any way shape or form.
Unless you're saying that the Star Empire is in such a poor shape that they have to fully-commission Republic / enemy ships under their banner.
If you went by that statement most Republic recommissioned ships and designs came from the RSE. And many of the 'new' ships that the Republic has made are based on original Imperial designs, so who would hypothetically be in poor shape there.
I appreciate head canon every now and then but that's all the above statement is. There is no more proof that a ship or a design hasn't been stolen then there is, leaving unofficial player assumptions.
Having the D'khellra as an RSE warbird is more head canon than anything I've put forward. It's a new warbird, with different technology. That's a fact of the warbird itself having different technical specifications and capabilities than the old model of the D'deridex.
The new D'deridex is the 2410 model with new advancements. The RSE still uses the old model, or the variant with Borg technologies.
And as I said, a 'stolen' warbird is possible under the current naming systems.
If you went by that statement most Republic recommissioned ships and designs came from the RSE. And many of the 'new' ships that the Republic has made are based on original Imperial designs, so who would hypothetically be in poor shape there.
The RSE is still the one in a weaker position.
The Republic is pumping out new warbirds with new designs and technologies. The newer warbirds share aesthetic similarities that one would expect from the next generation of ships, inspired by those before it.
The RSE has 'access' to every D'deridex except the newest one - which is a D'khellra first and foremost.
I didn't say you couldn't. Just use the "none" option as the prefix. Or leave the RRW in place, because that's what the warbird would've been commissioned as originally.
Unless you're saying that the Star Empire is in such a poor shape that they have to fully-commission Republic / enemy ships under their banner.
There are exclusively Republic designs out there that can use the IRW prefix. Like the T4 D'ridthau, for instance, which likewise has both a 'Republic' Skin and a D'deridex skin. So it can be flown as a D'deridex or D'ridthau- even an 'Imperial' D'ridthau-despite the fact that the RSE doesn't use them.
Fleetgrade and T5u ships can also equip the IRW Prefix as well. Every non-T6 variant can.
The ship also comes with a D'deridex skin anyways, so there's no reason it couldn't just be an RSE upgraded D'deridex. Likewise no reason one can't just fly it as a captured Republic ship. Nothing stopping the Republic/KDF/Starfleet from using the Adapted ships, no reason it can't work both ways.
There's absolutely nothing about this ship that makes this a special case. Cryptic has just been slipshod with the application of prefix's again. this has happened before.
There's no good reason why people who want to RP as Imperials should have to downgrade to a lower tier in order to do so, other than spite. Are certain Republic proponents so vexed by anything that might be conceived as a bone thrown in their direction that keeping Imperial RPers from using the IRW prefix on the most important Romulan ship is somehow a sensible position?
There's no real need for anyone to get combative here. It's quite clear where people stand in this thread. Bottom line as much as some people may hate the I.R.W. Prefix and anything Imperial with a passion and vise versa, including it won't break the game immersion nor will it harm anyone as proved by the inclusion of it on the intel ships, mistake or no mistake.
The main thing we can do to support the I.R.W. Prefix customization option that makes sense is not take get into too many arguments, or if people try to bait to start a flame war. That way the devs will see that we're making a reasonable request, and not shut the thread.
To be fair, it wasn't my intention to be combative. I simply wished to concede the discussion. It is simply because I have re-stated my issue several times and in more than one way and it isn't driving home. I don't feel that I'm having a discussion, but an argument.
You see, you and I are on the same page here but with one difference. I am asking for one thing from Cryptic and that is better marking of consumable items (ships), if there will be a change in it's customization option. The D'Deridex warbird has been available from T3-T5U and it has always had an IRW prefix option. So there is an historical precedent that breeds a certain sensible expectation that this skin would have that same option available now. I have bought that ship under this expectation and having wasted ~$40 (including fleet module), I simply think that better descriptions can be made so that similar misunderstanding will not happen upon other customers on the various other ships moving forward.
There is also an historical precedent for Republic warbirds to have this IRW prefix. The one and only Republic ship that I have purchased is the Faeht intel warbird. This ship had the IRW prefix as well. This consideration only reinforced my purchase decision.
The long and short of that issue there is that I only expect some degree of transparency because I like to make the best decisions that I can regarding my money.
The part where we agree is that we are both in favor of customization. I'm in favor of open customization on almost all options in game. Is this always consistent with game canon? No, of course not. But in the end it doesn't harm me, the game, the IP or the other players. I'm not arguing about how an IRW prefix makes sense on an RRW ship, because I'm not arguing for the Republic or the Empire in this case, but merely customization options available to each individual player.
What I am asking for is this:
1.) Some descriptions of ships in game or on the website give a rundown of the ships custom options or at least a prompt that notes a change in the customization history. [This should probably have existed from day one on all factions/ships].
2.) That this issue either be addressed as an oversight and corrected and/or;
3.) A Cryptic dev respond to the prefix bug listing, in the bug sub-forum, and make a policy statement about RRW ships and prefix options going forward.
**I am not asking Cryptic to reverse a policy decision that they are unwilling to change, but I would encourage that they consider it**
I am advocating for prefix customization options on the Romulan ships specifically and all ships generally. I think maximum customization for each player makes sense from an individual player perspective and it does not change the game play mechanics, the story missions, the rewards and neither does it harm other players. Advocacy does not equal demand, but it is an indicator.
It could be argued that further customization will not result in a net benefit to the game, but it also will not result in a net loss. It will not damage story content and I see it unlikely that such small minorities in rp groups will result in a mass exodus. At the very least this decision would have a net neutral effect upon the game.
But I would argue that the customization option allows the following:
1.) No harm to the game.
2.) No harm to the RRW faction players
3.) Both immersion and RP game players are happy with no additional coding or cost in dev time.
4.) Maximized potential earnings for ship sales to the RP crowd (small as it may be).
I don't see the harm, but I see potential benefit to sales and consumer happiness.
Most importantly what I see here is a fundamental disparity of philosophical ideologies. I advocate for maximum freedom in gaming where it harms no player and does not harm the game. What I decide to do with my ship, crew, costumes and how I interact responsibly within my fleet has no practical bearing on the other players in the game.
But it would seem that even in STO there are going to be those people who would say, "this is the story, here's what it is, that doesn't make sense and I don't like it. If I don't agree with it, then there should be a mechanism that forces you out of the option- because it isn't consistent with the story".
It is the same as being out in the world and having someone advocate that "there should be a law against that", because someone doesn't like another person's personal/aesthetic decisions- even if it doesn't result in the harming or the use of force against anyone else.
To be fair, it wasn't my intention to be combative. I simply wished to concede the discussion. It is simply because I have re-stated my issue several times and in more than one way and it isn't driving home. I don't feel that I'm having a discussion, but an argument.
You see, you and I are on the same page here but with one difference. I am asking for one thing from Cryptic and that is better marking of consumable items (ships), if there will be a change in it's customization option. The D'Deridex warbird has been available from T3-T5U and it has always had an IRW prefix option. So there is an historical precedent that breeds a certain sensible expectation that this skin would have that same option available now. I have bought that ship under this expectation and having wasted ~$40 (including fleet module), I simply think that better descriptions can be made so that similar misunderstanding will not happen upon other customers on the various other ships moving forward.
There is also an historical precedent for Republic warbirds to have this IRW prefix. The one and only Republic ship that I have purchased is the Faeht intel warbird. This ship had the IRW prefix as well. This consideration only reinforced my purchase decision.
The long and short of that issue there is that I only expect some degree of transparency because I like to make the best decisions that I can regarding my money.
The part where we agree is that we are both in favor of customization. I'm in favor of open customization on almost all options in game. Is this always consistent with game canon? No, of course not. But in the end it doesn't harm me, the game, the IP or the other players. I'm not arguing about how an IRW prefix makes sense on an RRW ship, because I'm not arguing for the Republic or the Empire in this case, but merely customization options available to each individual player.
What I am asking for is this:
1.) Some descriptions of ships in game or on the website give a rundown of the ships custom options or at least a prompt that notes a change in the customization history. [This should probably have existed from day one on all factions/ships].
2.) That this issue either be addressed as an oversight and corrected and/or;
3.) A Cryptic dev respond to the prefix bug listing, in the bug sub-forum, and make a policy statement about RRW ships and prefix options going forward.
**I am not asking Cryptic to reverse a policy decision that they are unwilling to change, but I would encourage that they consider it**
I am advocating for prefix customization options on the Romulan ships specifically and all ships generally. I think maximum customization for each player makes sense from an individual player perspective and it does not change the game play mechanics, the story missions, the rewards and neither does it harm other players. Advocacy does not equal demand, but it is an indicator.
It could be argued that further customization will not result in a net benefit to the game, but it also will not result in a net loss. It will not damage story content and I see it unlikely that such small minorities in rp groups will result in a mass exodus. At the very least this decision would have a net neutral effect upon the game.
But I would argue that the customization option allows the following:
1.) No harm to the game.
2.) No harm to the RRW faction players
3.) Both immersion and RP game players are happy with no additional coding or cost in dev time.
4.) Maximized potential earnings for ship sales to the RP crowd (small as it may be).
I don't see the harm, but I see potential benefit to sales and consumer happiness.
Most importantly what I see here is a fundamental disparity of philosophical ideologies. I advocate for maximum freedom in gaming where it harms no player and does not harm the game. What I decide to do with my ship, crew, costumes and how I interact responsibly within my fleet has no practical bearing on the other players in the game.
But it would seem that even in STO there are going to be those people who would say, "this is the story, here's what it is, that doesn't make sense and I don't like it. If I don't agree with it, then there should be a mechanism that forces you out of the option- because it isn't consistent with the story".
It is the same as being out in the world and having someone advocate that "there should be a law against that", because someone doesn't like another person's personal/aesthetic decisions- even if it doesn't result in the harming or the use of force against anyone else.
Don't worry I don't mean you or anyone in particular. I just wanted to remind all who are in favor of this to not get into it too much cause it would end up with the thread closed.
But it would seem that even in STO there are going to be those people who would say, "this is the story, here's what it is, that doesn't make sense and I don't like it. If I don't agree with it, then there should be a mechanism that forces you out of the option- because it isn't consistent with the story".
It is the same as being out in the world and having someone advocate that "there should be a law against that", because someone doesn't like another person's personal/aesthetic decisions- even if it doesn't result in the harming or the use of force against anyone else.
I think you're coming at that analogy from the wrong side... you're challenging the existing status quo by wanting IRW, not defending it. So in that sense, you're challenging the "law" that exists.
A better analogy would be a contract, where a person needs to be a member, pay a fee, or something to that effect, in order to receive a product or service. In this sense, a player needs to be a member of the Republic in order to receive the warbird.
Calling for IRW on a Republic warbird is akin to a consumer arguing with a store clerk, demanding that they receive a product without signing up for the required membership.
I think you're coming at that analogy from the wrong side... you're challenging the existing status quo by wanting IRW, not defending it. So in that sense, you're challenging the "law" that exists.
A better analogy would be a contract, where a person needs to be a member, pay a fee, or something to that effect, in order to receive a product or service. In this sense, a player needs to be a member of the Republic in order to receive the warbird.
Calling for IRW on a Republic warbird is akin to a consumer arguing with a store clerk, demanding that they receive a product without signing up for the required membership.
Most stores where I live don't require you too sign up for a membership to shop there unless your talking about Costco. They offer options, you may get a discount if your a member, but you can still shop there if you aren't.
Again this looks to be slight Rp bias in your argument akin to: If you don't want to rp as Republic then you shouldn't be allowed to have a I.R.W. prefix on a endgame ship. (and again Tiers are a game mechanic) technically all players are Republic players, and that's where the glory of rp comes in, you can create new worlds and story's, and where some content comes up that you may not care for you can work around it.
There is nothing wrong if someone chooses to argue or defend a law, where one exists outside head canon. Anyway the request is simple we don't want to take away R.R.W. from people as an option. but we do want to be able to pick I.R.W. if we wish.
Most stores where I live don't require you too sign up for a membership to shop there unless your talking about Costco. They offer options, you may get a discount if your a member, but you can still shop there if you aren't.
That's why I said any contract as well. Arguing with a store clerk is an example. But in any transaction, one must usually do something to get something.
Again this looks to be slight Rp bias in your argument akin to: If you don't want to rp as Republic then you shouldn't be allowed to have a I.R.W. prefix on a endgame ship. (and again Tiers are a game mechanic) technically all players are Republic players, and that's where the glory of rp comes in, you can create new worlds and story's, and where some content comes up that you may not care for you can work around it.
There is nothing wrong if someone chooses to argue or defend a law, where one exists outside head canon. Anyway the request is simple we don't want to take away R.R.W. from people as an option. but we do want to be able to pick I.R.W. if we wish.
I'm not following your logic at all there. I'm saying it's fine as it is, because of the in-game canon.
Your argument is based entirely on your own RP bias, where you want the in-game statements to be sidestepped to fit your own head canon.
Don't worry I don't mean you or anyone in particular. I just wanted to remind all who are in favor of this to not get into it too much cause it would end up with the thread closed.
I think you're coming at that analogy from the wrong side... you're challenging the existing status quo by wanting IRW, not defending it. So in that sense, you're challenging the "law" that exists.
A better analogy would be a contract, where a person needs to be a member, pay a fee, or something to that effect, in order to receive a product or service. In this sense, a player needs to be a member of the Republic in order to receive the warbird.
Calling for IRW on a Republic warbird is akin to a consumer arguing with a store clerk, demanding that they receive a product without signing up for the required membership.
No. I'm not defending either faction. I play how I want within the confines of the story, as I think that everyone else does. Whether it be total immersion or with some degree of a role play element. im simply pointing out that there is an advocacy of player choice and its opposition and how they are analogous to the same opposition that you see manifest in the real world.
What I am advocating and defending first and foremost is more disclosure about product changes. If an historical pattern is going to change with a ship or skin then it should be disclosed. I have no problem passing on a purchase if it isn't a good personal fit. I think that a large number of people consider their potential satisfaction in advance of making a purchase. This is the largest issue for me.
The ship customization issue is more of a side issue. If Cryptic makes a statement about their policy for this then I'll move on. My personal hope is that they expand the prefix option for this ship. It's a wish/hope. It doesn't mean I will get my way, but if so it means that I didn't flush ~$40. In this case I don't have to fight for it. I'd simply like some kind of resolution.
If Cryptic posts a policy about prefix options for all current and future Romulan ships, then I can make my future purchases accordingly. It may mean that my warbird will eventually be outpaced by future requirements and I will have to see what happens then. If I can keep my imperial Romulan warbird apace of current power creep, then I can keep a solid performance with my other fleet mates and I can continue to play the game with them.
TL;DR I want this issue to be settled one way or another by Cryptic so that I can adjust accordingly.
If Cryptic posts a policy about prefix options for all current and future Romulan ships, then I can make my future purchases accordingly. It may mean that my warbird will eventually be outpaced by future requirements and I will have to see what happens then. If I can keep my imperial Romulan warbird apace of current power creep, then I can keep a solid performance with my other fleet mates and I can continue to play the game with them.
So...you would cease playing the game simply for want of a prefix that doesn't fit with the games canon? Seem a rather mulish reaction to me. I would play any Romulan warbird available, even if it only had the IRW prefix, because it is ROMULAN. You won't play warbirds that dont have it because they aren't the right kind of Romulan.
Also, what historical pattern are you refering to? If its the IC pattern, that ended when the Romulans and Remans declared a Republic that has fully eclipsed the Empire. If you mean the OOC pattern, I'm reasonably certain that, like i said before, the Aelahl and Faeht having IRW was a glitch, but I'd have to take a look again.
And, unless you rp, in which case you make your own, don't make me laugh about immersion. This is a game where the Starfleet PC racks up higher body counts than Adolf Hitler, and the Klingon player helps the Bajorans get their panties untwisted, and holds Neelix's hand on moving day.
The RSE has 'access' to every D'deridex except the newest one - which is a D'khellra first and foremost.
I didn't say you couldn't. Just use the "none" option as the prefix. Or leave the RRW in place, because that's what the warbird would've been commissioned as originally.
Unless you're saying that the Star Empire is in such a poor shape that they have to fully-commission Republic / enemy ships under their banner.
So why is having no registration more acceptable than having an I.R.W. one?
Also, what historical pattern are you refering to? If its the IC pattern, that ended when the Romulans and Remans declared a Republic that has fully eclipsed the Empire. If you mean the OOC pattern, I'm reasonably certain that, like i said before, the Aelahl and Faeht having IRW was a glitch, but I'd have to take a look again.
I'd have to agree - any warbird that is established in-game as Republic probably was given IRW as a copy-paste error for the naming system.
So why is having no registration more acceptable than having an I.R.W. one?
Because it offers a lot more than just one outcome. There's RRW, and then there's everything else for head canon purposes.
Again, IRW on a Republic warbird is nothing more than your own head canon. There's nothing wrong with flying a Republic warbird while RPing an Imperial Loyalist, but it's a big leap to claim that there's been some type of injustice done over not having the IRW prefix.
Players can RP however they want, but there are mechanics and elements that need to be accounted for and accepted whenever you RP something that directly contradicts the established in-game lore. Your head canon does not trump the setup of the existing STO universe.
So a no-prefix option offers the maximum amount of options for RP purposes.
I'd have to agree - any warbird that is established in-game as Republic probably was given IRW as a copy-paste error for the naming system.
Because it offers a lot more than just one outcome. There's RRW, and then there's everything else for head canon purposes.
Again, IRW on a Republic warbird is nothing more than your own head canon. There's nothing wrong with flying a Republic warbird while RPing an Imperial Loyalist, but it's a big leap to claim that there's been some type of injustice done over not having the IRW prefix.
Players can RP however they want, but there are mechanics and elements that need to be accounted for and accepted whenever you RP something that directly contradicts the established in-game lore. Your head canon does not trump the setup of the existing STO universe.
So a no-prefix option offers the maximum amount of options for RP purposes.
If there's nothing wrong with it then why oppose it? Evidently other new warbirds have been given I.R.W. so what's the big deal?
If there's nothing wrong with it then why oppose it? Evidently other new warbirds have been given I.R.W. so what's the big deal?
You might want to re-read what I said.. I'd said there's nothing wrong with flying 'em, but there's no reason by the in-game lore to have IRW on the warbirds. The no-prefix option is there for RPing all things outside of Republic use.
And no, the last 3 releases of Republic warbirds haven't had IRW.
Honestly this has basically devolved into chipg7 doesn't like it so EVERYONE ELSE WRONG and must see it chipg7's way and shut up about it. Like it or not, many good reasons FOR giving any/all romulan ships the IRW option have been made and utterly ignored by him/her. Also many of chipg7's own arguments against it could be flipped around and thrown back at him/her as reasons to allow it. For all the effort chipg7 has tossed into railing against the concept.... exactly what does it hurt to allow it? nothing... your own RR bias and love is no more harmed by allowing people to fly with an IRW prefix than some feddie bear flying about in an ISS ship or a IRW adapted ship, or a frikkin elachi/voth/cardassian/etc ship
TL : DR
the 2 sides have thrown down their lines and neither side is budging, let it rest.
I agree. I'm not going to get into it with anyone, nor will I withdraw my support for the I.R.W. Prefix it's a reasonable request. Main thing everyone can do is keep things Civil so the devs notice it for what it is a nice request, and not a subject that should be in ten forward.
Honestly this has basically devolved into chipg7 doesn't like it so EVERYONE ELSE WRONG and must see it chipg7's way and shut up about it.
Funny, though, that I never resorted to hyperbole or putting words in someone's mouth. But thanks for your valuable input to the discussion nonetheless :rolleyes:
I agree. I'm not going to get into it with anyone, nor will I withdraw my support for the I.R.W. Prefix it's a reasonable request. Main thing everyone can do is keep things Civil so the devs notice it for what it is a nice request, and not a subject that should be in ten forward.
/thread
This is exactly the way it should be; unfortunately people on both sides tend to get a wee bit carried away in their zeal and it becomes more confrontational than it should be.
This is exactly the way it should be; unfortunately people on both sides tend to get a wee bit carried away in their zeal and it becomes more confrontational than it should be.
So...you would cease playing the game simply for want of a prefix that doesn't fit with the games canon? Seem a rather mulish reaction to me. I would play any Romulan warbird available, even if it only had the IRW prefix, because it is ROMULAN. You won't play warbirds that dont have it because they aren't the right kind of Romulan.
Also, what historical pattern are you refering to? If its the IC pattern, that ended when the Romulans and Remans declared a Republic that has fully eclipsed the Empire. If you mean the OOC pattern, I'm reasonably certain that, like i said before, the Aelahl and Faeht having IRW was a glitch, but I'd have to take a look again.
And, unless you rp, in which case you make your own, don't make me laugh about immersion. This is a game where the Starfleet PC racks up higher body counts than Adolf Hitler, and the Klingon player helps the Bajorans get their panties untwisted, and holds Neelix's hand on moving day.
I'll play with my imperial warbird until it's ineffective. I may change my mind, but it doesn't seem likely. It's too easy a thing to include for me to be the one to make the compromise.
The historical pattern for prefix customization has been IRW prefix for all D'Deridex warbirds, all Romulan ships I've had access to prior. Of course I understand that is suppose to exclude the Arkif- I've never used this ship, too ugly. I've heard it is also not available on the command ships, but I haven't purchased any of them.
That comment you made about the immersion made me near about cough up a lung, I laughed so hard! I tend to leave immersion to the individual. In relation to my previous comment, I simply meant story-line immersion. Getting into the whole Republic story line and mission.
But I've beamed onto the bridge of my warbird to find human crew in star fleet uniforms, that I didn't slot. That's immersion breaking. That and and Romulan parka uniforms. Man those uniforms are fugly and hard to believe.
That comment you made about the immersion made me near about cough up a lung, I laughed so hard! I tend to leave immersion to the individual. In relation to my previous comment, I simply meant story-line immersion. Getting into the whole Republic story line and mission.
But I've beamed onto the bridge of my warbird to find human crew in star fleet uniforms, that I didn't slot. That's immersion breaking. That and and Romulan parka uniforms. Man those uniforms are fugly and hard to believe.
You want Romulan Storyline immersion....yet refuse to fly a ship with the RRW prefix.......
I've also never had any experiece with non-slotted Klingon or Starfleet boffs, so i'm not sure wat you are talking about.
And the Romulan uniform is better than almost any other faction specific uniform. Much better than Starfleet issue pajama's and archaic Klingon armor. And unlike hte Tal Shiar shiny shirt, i don't feel like mommy will scold me if I get it dirty.
I'll play with my imperial warbird until it's ineffective. I may change my mind, but it doesn't seem likely. It's too easy a thing to include for me to be the one to make the compromise.
Now we wait to hear back from them, I'm happy that Trendy will bring up our request for I.R.W. prefix to the dev team. I'm satisfied.
You want Romulan Storyline immersion....yet refuse to fly a ship with the RRW prefix.......
I've also never had any experiece with non-slotted Klingon or Starfleet boffs, so i'm not sure wat you are talking about.
And the Romulan uniform is better than almost any other faction specific uniform. Much better than Starfleet issue pajama's and archaic Klingon armor. And unlike hte Tal Shiar shiny shirt, i don't feel like mommy will scold me if I get it dirty.
I've never been a big fan of any of the Cryptic default uniforms. Too many odd folds, flaps and overlapping materials for just reasons that can't be fathomed. It's never a simple, sleek and elegant design. I want immersion my way, not necessarily with the game story-line. Not that I hate the game's story line per se. I think Cryptoc did pretty good considering the mess they were left with post 2009. But it breaks my immersion a little to see Romulans in parka outfits on my ship, especially in the short skirts.
But once upon a time for a very short period of time there use to be this bug that would put a star fleet crew member on your non-BOFF bridge seating. It was crappy but it was fixed relatively quickly.
Comments
That's all fine, I'm not saying there's an issue with any of that. I'm just saying that, if you're not RPing a Republic Romulan, then it's silly to want the ships made for the Republic. That kinda missing the point of RPing outside the Republic's sphere.
It's a little strange to be saying "I don't want to be a Republic Romulan... but I want all the stuff they get anyways."
Claiming that the Star Empire shouldn't have access to it at endgame is absurd.
If I can, fly a Adapted destroyer with the IRW prefix on my Federation character, not being able to fly under the IRW prefix as a Romulan, on the most iconic Romulan ship is ridiculous.
Likely just another oversight or slapped-together job by Cryptic most likely. Like the Tal Shiar uniform missing pieces.
So why can't part of my RP be that I have captured a Republic ship? Saying I can't is unreasonable.
The RSE has 'access' to every D'deridex except the newest one - which is a D'khellra first and foremost.
I didn't say you couldn't. Just use the "none" option as the prefix. Or leave the RRW in place, because that's what the warbird would've been commissioned as originally.
Unless you're saying that the Star Empire is in such a poor shape that they have to fully-commission Republic / enemy ships under their banner.
I appreciate head canon every now and then but that's all the above statement is. There is no more proof that a ship or a design hasn't been stolen then there is, leaving unofficial player assumptions.
Not if the plans or the ship was stolen. I still can't quite wrap my head around the issue that, it seems sometimes that you think it impossible for a Republic design to be stolen and copied in any way shape or form.
If you went by that statement most Republic recommissioned ships and designs came from the RSE. And many of the 'new' ships that the Republic has made are based on original Imperial designs, so who would hypothetically be in poor shape there.
Again a Prefix won't kill anyone
[/SIGPIC]
Having the D'khellra as an RSE warbird is more head canon than anything I've put forward. It's a new warbird, with different technology. That's a fact of the warbird itself having different technical specifications and capabilities than the old model of the D'deridex.
The new D'deridex is the 2410 model with new advancements. The RSE still uses the old model, or the variant with Borg technologies.
And as I said, a 'stolen' warbird is possible under the current naming systems.
The RSE is still the one in a weaker position.
The Republic is pumping out new warbirds with new designs and technologies. The newer warbirds share aesthetic similarities that one would expect from the next generation of ships, inspired by those before it.
Fleetgrade and T5u ships can also equip the IRW Prefix as well. Every non-T6 variant can.
The ship also comes with a D'deridex skin anyways, so there's no reason it couldn't just be an RSE upgraded D'deridex. Likewise no reason one can't just fly it as a captured Republic ship. Nothing stopping the Republic/KDF/Starfleet from using the Adapted ships, no reason it can't work both ways.
There's absolutely nothing about this ship that makes this a special case. Cryptic has just been slipshod with the application of prefix's again. this has happened before.
There's no good reason why people who want to RP as Imperials should have to downgrade to a lower tier in order to do so, other than spite. Are certain Republic proponents so vexed by anything that might be conceived as a bone thrown in their direction that keeping Imperial RPers from using the IRW prefix on the most important Romulan ship is somehow a sensible position?
To be fair, it wasn't my intention to be combative. I simply wished to concede the discussion. It is simply because I have re-stated my issue several times and in more than one way and it isn't driving home. I don't feel that I'm having a discussion, but an argument.
You see, you and I are on the same page here but with one difference. I am asking for one thing from Cryptic and that is better marking of consumable items (ships), if there will be a change in it's customization option. The D'Deridex warbird has been available from T3-T5U and it has always had an IRW prefix option. So there is an historical precedent that breeds a certain sensible expectation that this skin would have that same option available now. I have bought that ship under this expectation and having wasted ~$40 (including fleet module), I simply think that better descriptions can be made so that similar misunderstanding will not happen upon other customers on the various other ships moving forward.
There is also an historical precedent for Republic warbirds to have this IRW prefix. The one and only Republic ship that I have purchased is the Faeht intel warbird. This ship had the IRW prefix as well. This consideration only reinforced my purchase decision.
The long and short of that issue there is that I only expect some degree of transparency because I like to make the best decisions that I can regarding my money.
The part where we agree is that we are both in favor of customization. I'm in favor of open customization on almost all options in game. Is this always consistent with game canon? No, of course not. But in the end it doesn't harm me, the game, the IP or the other players. I'm not arguing about how an IRW prefix makes sense on an RRW ship, because I'm not arguing for the Republic or the Empire in this case, but merely customization options available to each individual player.
What I am asking for is this:
1.) Some descriptions of ships in game or on the website give a rundown of the ships custom options or at least a prompt that notes a change in the customization history. [This should probably have existed from day one on all factions/ships].
2.) That this issue either be addressed as an oversight and corrected and/or;
3.) A Cryptic dev respond to the prefix bug listing, in the bug sub-forum, and make a policy statement about RRW ships and prefix options going forward.
**I am not asking Cryptic to reverse a policy decision that they are unwilling to change, but I would encourage that they consider it**
I am advocating for prefix customization options on the Romulan ships specifically and all ships generally. I think maximum customization for each player makes sense from an individual player perspective and it does not change the game play mechanics, the story missions, the rewards and neither does it harm other players. Advocacy does not equal demand, but it is an indicator.
It could be argued that further customization will not result in a net benefit to the game, but it also will not result in a net loss. It will not damage story content and I see it unlikely that such small minorities in rp groups will result in a mass exodus. At the very least this decision would have a net neutral effect upon the game.
But I would argue that the customization option allows the following:
1.) No harm to the game.
2.) No harm to the RRW faction players
3.) Both immersion and RP game players are happy with no additional coding or cost in dev time.
4.) Maximized potential earnings for ship sales to the RP crowd (small as it may be).
I don't see the harm, but I see potential benefit to sales and consumer happiness.
Most importantly what I see here is a fundamental disparity of philosophical ideologies. I advocate for maximum freedom in gaming where it harms no player and does not harm the game. What I decide to do with my ship, crew, costumes and how I interact responsibly within my fleet has no practical bearing on the other players in the game.
But it would seem that even in STO there are going to be those people who would say, "this is the story, here's what it is, that doesn't make sense and I don't like it. If I don't agree with it, then there should be a mechanism that forces you out of the option- because it isn't consistent with the story".
It is the same as being out in the world and having someone advocate that "there should be a law against that", because someone doesn't like another person's personal/aesthetic decisions- even if it doesn't result in the harming or the use of force against anyone else.
Don't worry I don't mean you or anyone in particular. I just wanted to remind all who are in favor of this to not get into it too much cause it would end up with the thread closed.
[/SIGPIC]
I think you're coming at that analogy from the wrong side... you're challenging the existing status quo by wanting IRW, not defending it. So in that sense, you're challenging the "law" that exists.
A better analogy would be a contract, where a person needs to be a member, pay a fee, or something to that effect, in order to receive a product or service. In this sense, a player needs to be a member of the Republic in order to receive the warbird.
Calling for IRW on a Republic warbird is akin to a consumer arguing with a store clerk, demanding that they receive a product without signing up for the required membership.
Most stores where I live don't require you too sign up for a membership to shop there unless your talking about Costco. They offer options, you may get a discount if your a member, but you can still shop there if you aren't.
Again this looks to be slight Rp bias in your argument akin to: If you don't want to rp as Republic then you shouldn't be allowed to have a I.R.W. prefix on a endgame ship. (and again Tiers are a game mechanic) technically all players are Republic players, and that's where the glory of rp comes in, you can create new worlds and story's, and where some content comes up that you may not care for you can work around it.
There is nothing wrong if someone chooses to argue or defend a law, where one exists outside head canon. Anyway the request is simple we don't want to take away R.R.W. from people as an option. but we do want to be able to pick I.R.W. if we wish.
Not a terrible request by any way shape or form
[/SIGPIC]
That's why I said any contract as well. Arguing with a store clerk is an example. But in any transaction, one must usually do something to get something.
I'm not following your logic at all there. I'm saying it's fine as it is, because of the in-game canon.
Your argument is based entirely on your own RP bias, where you want the in-game statements to be sidestepped to fit your own head canon.
You're absolutely correct.
No. I'm not defending either faction. I play how I want within the confines of the story, as I think that everyone else does. Whether it be total immersion or with some degree of a role play element. im simply pointing out that there is an advocacy of player choice and its opposition and how they are analogous to the same opposition that you see manifest in the real world.
What I am advocating and defending first and foremost is more disclosure about product changes. If an historical pattern is going to change with a ship or skin then it should be disclosed. I have no problem passing on a purchase if it isn't a good personal fit. I think that a large number of people consider their potential satisfaction in advance of making a purchase. This is the largest issue for me.
The ship customization issue is more of a side issue. If Cryptic makes a statement about their policy for this then I'll move on. My personal hope is that they expand the prefix option for this ship. It's a wish/hope. It doesn't mean I will get my way, but if so it means that I didn't flush ~$40. In this case I don't have to fight for it. I'd simply like some kind of resolution.
If Cryptic posts a policy about prefix options for all current and future Romulan ships, then I can make my future purchases accordingly. It may mean that my warbird will eventually be outpaced by future requirements and I will have to see what happens then. If I can keep my imperial Romulan warbird apace of current power creep, then I can keep a solid performance with my other fleet mates and I can continue to play the game with them.
TL;DR I want this issue to be settled one way or another by Cryptic so that I can adjust accordingly.
So...you would cease playing the game simply for want of a prefix that doesn't fit with the games canon? Seem a rather mulish reaction to me. I would play any Romulan warbird available, even if it only had the IRW prefix, because it is ROMULAN. You won't play warbirds that dont have it because they aren't the right kind of Romulan.
Also, what historical pattern are you refering to? If its the IC pattern, that ended when the Romulans and Remans declared a Republic that has fully eclipsed the Empire. If you mean the OOC pattern, I'm reasonably certain that, like i said before, the Aelahl and Faeht having IRW was a glitch, but I'd have to take a look again.
And, unless you rp, in which case you make your own, don't make me laugh about immersion. This is a game where the Starfleet PC racks up higher body counts than Adolf Hitler, and the Klingon player helps the Bajorans get their panties untwisted, and holds Neelix's hand on moving day.
So why is having no registration more acceptable than having an I.R.W. one?
I'd have to agree - any warbird that is established in-game as Republic probably was given IRW as a copy-paste error for the naming system.
Because it offers a lot more than just one outcome. There's RRW, and then there's everything else for head canon purposes.
Again, IRW on a Republic warbird is nothing more than your own head canon. There's nothing wrong with flying a Republic warbird while RPing an Imperial Loyalist, but it's a big leap to claim that there's been some type of injustice done over not having the IRW prefix.
Players can RP however they want, but there are mechanics and elements that need to be accounted for and accepted whenever you RP something that directly contradicts the established in-game lore. Your head canon does not trump the setup of the existing STO universe.
So a no-prefix option offers the maximum amount of options for RP purposes.
If there's nothing wrong with it then why oppose it? Evidently other new warbirds have been given I.R.W. so what's the big deal?
You might want to re-read what I said.. I'd said there's nothing wrong with flying 'em, but there's no reason by the in-game lore to have IRW on the warbirds. The no-prefix option is there for RPing all things outside of Republic use.
And no, the last 3 releases of Republic warbirds haven't had IRW.
TL : DR
the 2 sides have thrown down their lines and neither side is budging, let it rest.
[/SIGPIC]
Funny, though, that I never resorted to hyperbole or putting words in someone's mouth. But thanks for your valuable input to the discussion nonetheless :rolleyes:
/thread
This is exactly the way it should be; unfortunately people on both sides tend to get a wee bit carried away in their zeal and it becomes more confrontational than it should be.
I asked Trendy in her reddit Q&A a few hours ago and she said she'd at least bring it up. So at least there's a chance.
http://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/36wu1o/i_am_leekspinning_community_manager/
[/SIGPIC]
I'll play with my imperial warbird until it's ineffective. I may change my mind, but it doesn't seem likely. It's too easy a thing to include for me to be the one to make the compromise.
The historical pattern for prefix customization has been IRW prefix for all D'Deridex warbirds, all Romulan ships I've had access to prior. Of course I understand that is suppose to exclude the Arkif- I've never used this ship, too ugly. I've heard it is also not available on the command ships, but I haven't purchased any of them.
That comment you made about the immersion made me near about cough up a lung, I laughed so hard! I tend to leave immersion to the individual. In relation to my previous comment, I simply meant story-line immersion. Getting into the whole Republic story line and mission.
But I've beamed onto the bridge of my warbird to find human crew in star fleet uniforms, that I didn't slot. That's immersion breaking. That and and Romulan parka uniforms. Man those uniforms are fugly and hard to believe.
You want Romulan Storyline immersion....yet refuse to fly a ship with the RRW prefix.......
I've also never had any experiece with non-slotted Klingon or Starfleet boffs, so i'm not sure wat you are talking about.
And the Romulan uniform is better than almost any other faction specific uniform. Much better than Starfleet issue pajama's and archaic Klingon armor. And unlike hte Tal Shiar shiny shirt, i don't feel like mommy will scold me if I get it dirty.
Oh, yes I will.
Now we wait to hear back from them, I'm happy that Trendy will bring up our request for I.R.W. prefix to the dev team. I'm satisfied.
[/SIGPIC]
proto made a funny? THE END OF THE WORLD DRAWS NIGH!!! Seriously tho... that WAS a nice one
I've never been a big fan of any of the Cryptic default uniforms. Too many odd folds, flaps and overlapping materials for just reasons that can't be fathomed. It's never a simple, sleek and elegant design. I want immersion my way, not necessarily with the game story-line. Not that I hate the game's story line per se. I think Cryptoc did pretty good considering the mess they were left with post 2009. But it breaks my immersion a little to see Romulans in parka outfits on my ship, especially in the short skirts.
But once upon a time for a very short period of time there use to be this bug that would put a star fleet crew member on your non-BOFF bridge seating. It was crappy but it was fixed relatively quickly.