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What people can do against cyberbullying?

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  • askrayaskray Member Posts: 3,327 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    If someone is being an annoying little jerk to you in game, then ignore them. If they're going out of their way to go around ignores to harass you, then you need to contact a GM and break it down to them on what handles, when and so fourth. If it's on the forums you can contact any Mod or Trendy and we'll look at it. That said, while the user may be warned for trolling, we won't go ban super happy on the first offense.
    Yes, I'm that [email protected] in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care.


  • dapperdrakedapperdrake Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I made a ticket to GM. The guy who is harassing me published on the internet a long letter and he explain how he's good guy and why admins should kick me off of any channels.
    On his long letter on the internet he wrote : "I've got Numbers' permission to kick @feistyfawn from the DPS-G-Channels whenever I feel funny – if Feisty ever receives an invitation"

    MMO is a social game and he wants to prevent me having social experience game. In other words. He wants I quit.
  • oldkhemaraaoldkhemaraa Member Posts: 1,039 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Put 'em on ignore..create and use private channels. Isolate your self as much as possible from the disruptive effects to your game play. There is some use full advice in the tread for you.

    Observations after 5 plus years of STO:

    Cryptic studio internal policies to trigger GM action in in game social play issues is frankly.. in a word...

    "Cryptic"

    In 5 plus years of play I have yet to figure out what it takes to get the studio to DO SOMETHING about disruptive players. And I am far from alone. GM tickets do nothing. I doesn't matter if you attach a FRAPS recording of a particular indecent to a GM ticket. They apparently just don't give a damd.

    The only time since launch where I have actually seen or heard of the Game staff actually doing anything about disruptive behavior was after the Nimoy memorial was placed in the Vulcan social zone. Some very disrespectful behavior and griefing happened and this time.. Dev staff saw it an were very displeased. Some folks got temporary and in some cases possibly permanant bans. The studio GM staff never give details....

    * They should. A players in game @ handle still gives them anonymity outside of the game .... but at least in game they might find themselves having to deal with the consequences of their activities with other players choosing to NOT game with THEM! I'm sure that the time could be found to create, maintain, add and remove players names from a "Wall of Shame" could be found. Don't ban 'em.. OUT them... Make sure everyone knows if they choose to find out that player "@iwinandyouranewb" (example name ONLY.. if someone actually has chosen this as their @ handle I am not going to group with them myself just on general principle ok?) likes to grief players in social area and is currently under a 7 play ban. Don't treat them like children.. treat them like adults with an understanding that their actions will have consequences.

    But then again, its prolly wish full thinking on my part. I seriously doubt Cryptic has the gurumba to actually consider doing something so publicly, and also showing that they are willing to take on policing their game environment in a pro active manner.

    If for no other reason then to be able to say "Yes, this matters. Yes, we do something about it when this sort of disruptive game activity happens."

    I'm sorry this has happened to you. Get past it if you can manage it. There are a lot of very very fine folk that play STO and do not engage in griefing folks game play in any matter what so ever.
    Unfortunatly.. to find them, you tend to have to run the gauntlet of some real jerks now and again.

    The good news is because STO is now longer quote "new" unquote, most of the worst of these types have moved onto other games, which may not be good for those other games *sigh* but at least they're not here any more!

    Honestly though I would bother having much faith in the GM ticketting process when it comes to matters of player harassment and griefing. Hell.. I took three years of complaining to get the studio to deal with Party Amplifiers by giving us another GPL purchase of a subspace nullifier..

    I would have made it a game preferences option.. Cryptic makes you buy an in game item that takes up space permanantly in your inventory so you can have immunity from an unwanted effect.

    Not holding my breath on this but hopefully cryptic has figured out that in game prank toys are not appropriate for a Trek MMO. We haven't seen any new ones for awhile. Hopefully this trend will continue.

    ((( prank toys have been used and abused in this game.. fun is fun... but its disrespectful of the IP, and far to many of the players to even have such items in game))

    ~fini~
    "I aim to misbehave" - Malcolm Reynolds
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,825 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    aesica wrote: »
    Pretend they don't exist, because the moment you turn off your computer, they don't exist. Cyber bullies only have power if you give it to them.

    ironic, you turn the computer off and run away from the bullies by letting them control your actions on and off the game. its a lot more exclusive then that.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • jer5488jer5488 Member Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    If it's in game, I'd just report them, ignore them, and change your privacy settings to 'only accept tells from friends or fleet'.

    If it's more widespread, you do have the option of reporting it to law enforcement - especially if threats are involved.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I thought the name looked familiar...

    ...and after seeing the mention of Numbers and the DPS League, I went looking.

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1347981&page=6

    Yeah, the post was deleted. Guessing the poster just got back from a temp ban for it too.
  • dapperdrakedapperdrake Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I thought the name looked familiar...

    ...and after seeing the mention of Numbers and the DPS League, I went looking.

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1347981&page=6

    Yeah, the post was deleted. Guessing the poster just got back from a temp ban for it too.

    I didn't get any ban.

    But this such torsten should stop harrassing me.
    I think using his relationship with channel admins to kick me off because I told him what people from "Oradour sur Glane" think about his family. He has childish behaviour asking channel admins to kick me. He's not able to face someone who hasn't the same opinion and he's not able to face someone who thinks he's kind of r****h..
    He's bullying me for 9 months. It's time to stop, no?
    Is it necessary to publish on the internet 4 pages of lies about me?
    What does he want? Does he want I go to police station to say he's ahrassing me, he's hi-jacked my account. He's euro and me too. What does he thinks, german police wont invite him to police station to explain to the officer why he has this kind of behaviour? I just want he stops. The game is enough big to play without meet each other of us. Harassing me is not the way.
  • torsten1009torsten1009 Member Posts: 454 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I didn't get any ban.
    I'm sorry to hear that.
    But this such torsten should stop harrassing me. <Snipped> He's bullying me for 9 months. It's time to stop, no?
    Ahh, still naming and shaming. The rest of your posts are so predictable:
    A) Baseless accusations with
    B) Insults.

    You are still trying to play the victim? Well, those 3 hate threads (with the typical naming and shaming, some A, some B and showing my @handle) at Reddit are showing something else.
    Is it necessary to publish on the internet 4 pages of lies about me?
    What does he want? Does he want I go to police station to say he's ahrassing me, he's hi-jacked my account.
    I must admit, I wrote a 4 pages long letter to the owner of the DPS-Channels, he asked me to clarify what's going on, to tell him my version of the story. I should link it here, so everybody has the chance to evaluate for him-/herself if it's all fake - like you are suggesting - or if it might be true.
    But, then I wouldn't be better then you. It would be a clear violation of the forum-rules, since it contains names, @handles and so on. The fact that you were able to quote 2 lines out of 4 pages shows that you are afraid of the rest.
    By the way, those were the only 2 lines that made me look like the attacker. The rest of those 4 pages was dealing with your lies.

    Well, "account-hijacking". What should I say? Let me demonstrate how I dealt with your lies:
    Even if you can proove that somebody (from germany) hijacked your account, there are round about 80 million people. So you've got a 1:80,000,000 chance to proof that I was using the IP that TRIBBLE your account at that time (that is, if you can proof that it was a german IP).
    I think it's more likely that one of the security-measures of the game produced a "false-positive".

    So, who wants to tell me that I may not defend myself?
    If defending against her is „cyberbulling“ and getting rid of her lies is „faking evidence“, then you know the strange way Feisty is looking at the whole story.
    I just want he stops. The game is enough big to play without meet each other of us. Harassing me is not the way.
    You are right, this has to stop - one way or another. But you are saying this while you are producing new hate-threads. If you want to prove that you are the smart one, why don't you simply stop?

    When the original post of your last hate-thread at Reddit was deleted, you came here. Why? - Well, I know the answer, it is in the original Post of that Reddit thread. Luckily I've got a screenshot of that. But let me guess your reply to this: "It's a fake!".
    I made a ticket to GM.
    Well, save me and those GMs at Cryptic some work, the corresponding ticket from my side is:
    Incident: 150520-000670

    Btw, Cryptic can proof that mail/screenshots are authentic and not a fake.
    I'm lifetime, I spend money to play and there is no way to play in safety.
    So what people can do against cyberbullying? Quit the game?

    Does the fact that you are a lifetimer make you better then anybody else? Well surprise, look at my title here in the forums, I'm lifetimer, too.

    In the worst case you could try to ask Cryptic to change your @handle. In the worst case to "@BadHandleXYZ&quot; - might not be so sexy, but it would allow you to start over, to get a second chance.
    But changing the @handle doesn't help you much, if you continue to make your own game miserable and boring, you've got to change yourself, too.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
  • belidosbelidos Member Posts: 452 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    aesica wrote: »
    I've endured my share of bullying, and it wasn't until I embraced the "sticks and stones philosophy" that you seem to be condemning that it truly went away and I started to feel good about myself. Once a person realizes that cyber bullies are irrelevant, pitiable gasbags who's opinions don't matter, everything gets better.

    "Don't feed the troll" is a popular phrase, and that's all cyber bullies really are: Obnoxious trolls who have (for whatever reason) made it their mission to try to break you. Unfortunately for them, they can't break you if you don't pay any attention to them. ;)

    So this .....

    You may not be a believer that "sticks and stones" works, but it does. I Spent most of my young life being bullied and over that time I've found the quickest way to get them to stop was to simply look them in the eye and confidently say "whatever, I really don't care" and walk alway.

    There's a reason things become common sayings, it's usually because they're true in a large number of cases (there are always exceptions) and in this case it does work most of the time.

    As to whether words can hurt you, as said they can hurt psychologically, but they're not the root of the issue, if you are hurt that badly by words then there's usually a deeper psychological issue already in play which also needs to be addressed.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,825 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Very liberal appliance of the ignore function is the only thing that really works.

    the ignore feature has/is/will always be completely useless because quite simply put a persistent cyber bully will only need to create more accounts to avoid the filter, as well as to create an illlusion of other "people" listening to it and that spreads it to more and more people, eventually your ignore list will be full up and there will be no way to block any further incoming harassment. then what? so its useless.

    running away from a bully by using the ignore feature doesnt help you and some bullies may go to any length to get to you despite what you are stating. its not as simple as that and some trolls thrive on a challenge, especially one like an ignore feature, it could make one or two so determined to get over that wall and take a thrill in the idea..

    its more complicated then you expect.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,899 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    feiqa wrote: »
    If this is in game contact a GM.
    (...)

    As others already stated, there is one huge problem in STO: There are no GMs. The game itself is literally unsupervised at all times, only when a dev notices something (like the memorial thing) something happens. But there is nobody to take care of the playerbase's concerns at all, in 4+ years I have never heard or seen a single case that has been dealt with.

    Now, I don't say Cryptic doesn't care or is intentionally ignoring people. But I realize that the budget must be very tight because employing GMs to moderate in a social MMO like STO is not an option. The forums are autonomously moderated by the community itself (all mods are volunteer users) because they can't have employees dealing with this. It's a difficult situation.
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    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
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  • torsten1009torsten1009 Member Posts: 454 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I just realized that one of the parties to this drama submitted a lengthy pdf file briefing thing with all kinds of links and quotes and stuff to NoP Central Command. For some reason.

    I was unable to make any sense out of it, and am also unable to make any sense out of this thread.

    Druk, if all that doesn't make sense to you, leave it. Nobody is forcing you to post here.

    There are only 2 things in your reply that you prove:
    - The inability of NoP to discreetly handle issues/problems (simply read the full post and you can see that the post shouldn't be there) and
    - That there are reasons that some people call NoP a Troll-Fleet.

    You could further imagine that somebody came across that post, who then broadcasted the link on certain channels.
    Well, that broadcast did happen - I'm not saying that a Fleetmember of NoP did it.

    We could speculate for hours about what happened, it doesn't change the fact that Feisty got the link.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    angrytarg wrote: »
    As others already stated, there is one huge problem in STO: There are no GMs. The game itself is literally unsupervised at all times, only when a dev notices something (like the memorial thing) something happens. But there is nobody to take care of the playerbase's concerns at all, in 4+ years I have never heard or seen a single case that has been dealt with.

    This is the best advice you're going to get.

    The honest truth is.. there are no rules in Star Trek Online. You can say anything you want to anyone you want at any time. If you don't believe it, just log in and read Zone Chat. You'll find a collection of political debates, racist hate speech, misogynistic insults, religious persecution.. anything you can imagine. There are literally no rules at all in Star Trek Online.

    It may not be the answer you want, but the truth is you can do nothing about it. No GM will help you, no one will look at your problem, no one from Cryptic will do anything about anything anyone says or does. Your options are learn to live with it or play something else. I'm sorry if that sounds insensitive, it's not meant to.. but there is no point sugar coating things into making you believe you have some recourse when in fact you don't.

    Star Trek Online is a haven for trolls and spammers. It's a great game, but it's really best played with zone chat off. There is absolutely nothing you can do outside of the ignore option. Those that say otherwise are either lying to themselves or to you.
    animated.gif
    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • minababeminababe Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    belidos wrote: »
    So this .....

    You may not be a believer that "sticks and stones" works, but it does. I Spent most of my young life being bullied and over that time I've found the quickest way to get them to stop was to simply look them in the eye and confidently say "whatever, I really don't care" and walk alway.

    There's a reason things become common sayings, it's usually because they're true in a large number of cases (there are always exceptions) and in this case it does work most of the time.

    Sometimes we have common sayings when a culture is too simple-minded or insensitive to confront a problem head on. For example, when women used to get *****, a common phrase was "She asked for it." If a child was physically beaten or tormented by bullies to the point of needing to be hospitalized or being suicidal, another common phrase was, "Boys will be boys" or "This is just a phase."

    So this is closer to the truth of why we have "common sayings." They're meant to be dismissive, to say in so many words, "Eh, we could really talk about and understand this issue in a real way, but we don't want to. We'll just drop it with a glib phrase."
    belidos wrote: »
    As to whether words can hurt you, as said they can hurt psychologically, but they're not the root of the issue, if you are hurt that badly by words then there's usually a deeper psychological issue already in play which also needs to be addressed.

    Yes. You know what the "deeper psychological issue" is? The deep-rooted human need to be love and respected by one's peers, to be seen and respected as a human being, to not be perpetually harassed by what's essentially a stalker who's become obsessed with ruining their enjoyment of something in some way.

    And it's not your place--or anyone else's--to suggest that people who do get hurt by bullying are the "problem." People who successfully dodge the bullet in a certain situation don't get to talk down to the ones who didn't. In other words, the woman who successfully fought off her attacker doesn't get to tell the **** victim who was beaten within inches of her life to "get over it", and the guy who successfully fought off muggers with only a scratch doesn't get to tell the guy who was stabbed several times that he should've fought harder.

    Similarly, you don't get to tell those who suffered long-term psychological and emotional damage from bullying that the problem "lies with them." It's not your place, even if you were bullied yourself. Your experience is not that of the average victim's, nor would it ever be.
    My Foundry Mission--Name: Falling Star | Mission ID: HQIH36HAW | Faction: FED
  • pwefailpwefail Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    best defence is to grow a pair and laugh with them,they get bored after that.
    or just good old fashioned ignore.
    The player formerly known as Chunter.
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,252 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    reyan01 wrote: »
    That really isn't either good, or useful, advice. Read back a few posts if you need to know why.

    Works for me all the time. I again just act like a psychologist. After a while they get fed up and go elsewhere.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    reyan01 wrote: »
    That really isn't either good, or useful, advice. Read back a few posts if you need to know why.

    But in STO it's all you have.

    It's a completely non-moderated game where anything goes and there is absolutely no code of conduct whatsoever.

    Someone being harassed as absolutely no recourse. While it may not be what people want to hear, the bottom line is that 'deal with it or play something else' is the only choice anyone has.
    animated.gif
    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,241 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Where is Slappy Squirrel when you need her? She taught her nephew how to deal with a bully when proper authorities were incompetent.
    #TASforSTO
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  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    What people can do against cyberbullying?
    Even though I hug the wall and avoid making wave. A player is looking after me to make my game annoying. Fake screenshot, lies, fake situation, and so on. Any fake evidence is good to injure me.
    I'm lifetime, I spend money to play and there is no way to play in safety.
    So what people can do against cyberbullying? Quit the game?

    How exactly again? Screenshot: you can't name and shame in the forums, so it was not posted HERE or else he would be in trouble. Lies: same as screenshot.

    No way to play in safety? What can he do to you? He can't shoot at you, there is no pvp.

    Injure you? What? This word does not mean what you think it means unless he found a way to get your computer to stick a knife in you while you play.

    This smacks of fleet-drama or something. If you are in the same fleet, you may have to leave that fleet, and possibly tell your new fleet the @handle of the bully and request they do not allow him to join/follow you. If you are not in the same fleet, there is absolutely nothing he can do to you except be annoying and that is easy to ignore.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,825 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Hence the "very liberal" part.

    In my very personal experience in this very game, it works well if you are willing to ignore people at the earliest sight of potentially offensive behavior. This will mean you'll be unfair to many people, yes, and please be aware of that, but it will protect you, because it costs a lot more time to create (or even log in to) a new account than to /ignore it. Eventually, a cyberbully will simply look for an easier target, even if it takes a month or two.

    my point is that it wont protect you and any use of the ignore feature is another way of running away from the problem rather then confronting it. the problem is that you can run for a while but in the end it will catch up, you will still get the same issue, doesnt matter how liberal your usage is of the feature. it can be circumvented, thus it is useless nor will it protect you.

    you are assuming it could take forever, but it may not take as long as you may suspect to delete a toon and start a new one up, send a pm, delete it, start another, send another message, delete it... on and on. you tell me how does liberal play a part in protecting you with such a useless feature? even if that account was deleted that same cuberbully would of setup another account for exactly this purpose, once one is gone, start another up as backup if the next one fails. use hotspot shield to mask the true ip signiture thus make it look like it comes from different locations. it would be impossible to police it and impossible to call the ignore feature useful. a cyber bully can use any means if he or she wanted to.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • millimidgetmillimidget Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I'm curious as to what you did in the first place to attract a dedicated cyberbully.
    pwefail wrote: »
    best defence is to grow a pair and laugh with them,they get bored after that.
    That's a great strategy. In general, anything that prods them into boredom should resolve the issue.
    "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
  • corelogikcorelogik Member Posts: 1,039 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I'm curious as to what you did in the first place to attract a dedicated cyberbully.

    That's a great strategy. In general, anything that prods them into boredom should resolve the issue.

    I'm curious as to the assumption that a target of harassment/bullying "did something" to attract said attention.

    That being said, "cyber"-bullies are properly dealt with the same way real life ones are. When they come at you, stand up and smack them dead in the nose. They tend to think twice when their "victims" hit back.

    In the case of online stuff, companies and sites need to start standing up for their users and actually enforcing some rules. Quit letting people hide behind a "right" to free speech that doesn't exist online or on a private game/site.

    At the same time, only well documented cases should be dealt with in that way. Screenshots, chat logs etc,...

    On a final note, and it probably won't be a popular one. People need to get over this idea that they have a "right" not to be offended or insulted. If you join in a public or semi-public discussion, it is as likely as not that you will offend someone. If that happens, it's possible that someone will carry the disagreement too far. In those cases, the company in question needs some measures in place to deal decisively with the situation.
    "Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me
    "There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
  • dapperdrakedapperdrake Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I'm sorry to hear that.


    Ahh, still naming and shaming. The rest of your posts are so predictable:
    A) Baseless accusations with
    B) Insults.

    You are still trying to play the victim? Well, those 3 hate threads (with the typical naming and shaming, some A, some B and showing my @handle) at Reddit are showing something else.

    And you published 4 pages of lies about me on the internet. Who is worst? I think that's you because you don't want to stop and you don't want to leave me alone.

    The worst. You confess you're are spying me on the internet. I think you should go to psy. You are sick. Happiness you're coward, you wont kill anyone but... Who knows. Today you're spying people, tomorrow you are killing them in their bed. Psychopath do this...
    I must admit, I wrote a 4 pages long letter to the owner of the DPS-Channels, he asked me to clarify what's going on, to tell him my version of the story. I should link it here, so everybody has the chance to evaluate for him-/herself if it's all fake - like you are suggesting - or if it might be true.
    But, then I wouldn't be better then you. It would be a clear violation of the forum-rules, since it contains names, @handles and so on. The fact that you were able to quote 2 lines out of 4 pages shows that you are afraid of the rest.

    I quoted the best of your lies. The best lie is claiming I was in Nerd of Prey. You have a lot of imagination.
    By the way, those were the only
    2 lines that made me look like the attacker. The rest of those 4 pages was dealing with your lies.

    Yeah! You don't mock at people. You don't lookdown at people. Look the answer you made to someone. Arrogant person you are.


    In the worst case you could try to ask Cryptic to change your @handle. In the worst case to "@BadHandleXYZ&quot; - might not be so sexy, but it would allow you to start over, to get a second chance.
    But changing the @handle doesn't help you much, if you continue to make your own game miserable and boring, you've got to change yourself, too.

    Is it your business? My game is mine and my own. Do your business and leave me alone. I play the way I want. Are you able to understand this?
    As I said you are not able to face people who are different and who are playing in another way. So because you have no real life you waste your time to bully them.

    I really don't care of you. I'm not interested on you. I just want you leave me alone.
    Anyone can translate this in german to this guy? I think he is not able to understand what does mean "leave me alone".
  • racialstereotyperacialstereotype Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I used to be bullied, but then I got a job and now I don't spend ANY time at the computer! At the end of the day, I either go out shooting with my friends or hang out with my family. I haven't played this game in a while and I feel a lot better about it. I hope this helps!
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I used to be bullied, but then I got a job and now I don't spend ANY time at the computer! At the end of the day, I either go out shooting with my friends or hang out with my family. I haven't played this game in a while and I feel a lot better about it. I hope this helps!

    There is wisdom here, I don't know any shooters who have self esteem or bully problems, and I know a bunch. There is a lot to be said for self confidence, and that comes with the sport. Same is true for a number of other activities, of course, but there is an added self confidence from handing dangerous objects -- the same could be said of learning to drive etc too...

    Getting away from the PC and doing something that makes you realize how petty words on the internet is a great idea and highly recommended if you can't mentally get to the "ignore the idiot" state on your own.

    If you quit the game, the bully won. If you grow beyond caring what some moron on the internet thinks or says or does, YOU win.
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