There will always be a 'most viable' build or skill that works better than most. If you nerf or change FAW, then something else will take it's place.
As has been said, FAW is the best thing for most PVE's because you have AOE targets in organised groups, but it doesn't work so well in PVP where you need targeted spike damage on a single target.
People will always find the path of least resistance for maximum gain. It's human nature.
If people want more build diversity, there should be more game diversity. Less AOE DPS based missions to encourage different skills, tactics and abilities.
In ground, it's common to use different weapon types for different enemies (TR for borg, Pulswave for BHE etc). It should be a similar situation for space PVE. The closest we had to that was NWS, but that's gone.
The problem with this idea, is that a large portion of the player base want a 1 build fits all solution, and it has to be their build and the way they want to play. So if different missions needed different gear, people would cry foul because they don't wanna change, or it's too much grind or too much of a dil sink.
Ultimately, I don't think there's any real solution. There's always going to be an optimised build/strategy, no matter what get's nerfed. The only thing that will ever change is the numbers at the end.
The problem is, when is the wrong time to use FAW?
SB24 when you're not at cap?
My DRecruit picked up the mission while passing by, so I popped in.
The key strategy there, especially when (from what I could see) everybody was a Commander, was to know when not to use FAW. I saw a lot of people spamming FAW and getting blown to bits, while I only used it if there were only a few ships in range.
Came in first in spite of not using FAW most of the time.
Of course, my Fleet Admirals can safely use FAW in there and massacre everything.
That's idiotic. How in the hell will single target abilities be effective when AOE/multiple target abilities maintain effectiveness, even on single targets?
By balancing the abilities? It's certainly there for CRF and CSV.
CRF does +50% to one target. CSV does +25% to three targets.
Against groups of three or more targets, CSV is more effective.
Against groups of two targets, CRF and CSV are equally effective.
Against single targets, CRF is more effective.
Even an idiot can figure that one out.
The only issue is properly mixing enemy groups - half the time there should be more than two enemies, half the time there should be less than two enemies.
Want to draw all the aggro of the map? FAW. Though drawing aggro from anything on the map is usually not the smart choice
Where to begin with this...
If you do poor damage, that doesn't mean FAW is broken or going to get you killed. It means you have bad gear and/or a bad build. When you do good damage, you don't have to worry much about getting killed.
You have less to worry about if everyone you're playing with also does good damage, because things die faster.
WTB T6 ship, for $30 of hard-earned money, with the following:
1. 8 Weapons, Battle Cloak, and 11 consoles (5 Tac/4 Sci)
2. At least 39,000 Hull at lvl 50 and at least 1.25 Shield mod
3. Commander Tac/Int BOFF and Uni Lt Comm BOFF stations
It could have 5 turn rate and look like a box, but I'd buy it ASAP!
meanwhile I'm sitting here building my ship and I just wonder how anyone can be using that ability :P
well but I'm a king of a guy that when point guns at a target want that target dead at priori - and everytime I used FAW it hit everything except what I wanted to die first....
actually the only time I used FAW and it wasn't terrabad was yesterday during temporeal ambassador mission when I got put into enterprice-C and I was like flying in circles randomly shoting everything with face like "i have no idea what I'm doing"....
This is only a problem because you do poor damage. When you get elite gear, overpowering gear, FAW is the most effective thing. Using it when you do, say, 5k DPS (or less) isn't the best thing in the world because you won't get enough shots on your target to kill it. When you're 50k DPS, it means you kill everything, not just the thing you're targeting. The difference is gear, build, and ship.
WTB T6 ship, for $30 of hard-earned money, with the following:
1. 8 Weapons, Battle Cloak, and 11 consoles (5 Tac/4 Sci)
2. At least 39,000 Hull at lvl 50 and at least 1.25 Shield mod
3. Commander Tac/Int BOFF and Uni Lt Comm BOFF stations
It could have 5 turn rate and look like a box, but I'd buy it ASAP!
The problem with this idea, is that a large portion of the player base want a 1 build fits all solution, and it has to be their build and the way they want to play. So if different missions needed different gear, people would cry foul because they don't wanna change, or it's too much grind or too much of a dil sink.
Don't stop. Ask why they want that and don't assume it's because they're lazy.
The game has built in incentives for that exact outcome as follows:
Everything can and is won by anything, thus little need for more than one build
The high cost of upgrading makes multiple top-end builds out the question for all but the hard core
The high price of bank space combined with nothing but a single shelf in the bank make storing and organizing expensive and difficult
A broken loadout system means you can't easily swap builds (they *say* they've fixed it this week, let us see).
The trait and skill systems are not part of the loadout system making swapping traits and skills to match different builds difficult.
Deal with those five items, and you'll see more than one build.
Don't stop. Ask why they want that and don't assume it's because they're lazy.
The game has built in incentives for that exact outcome as follows:
Everything can and is won by anything, thus little need for more than one build
The high cost of upgrading makes multiple top-end builds out the question for all but the hard core
The high price of bank space combined with nothing but a single shelf in the bank make storing and organizing expensive and difficult
A broken loadout system means you can't easily swap builds (they *say* they've fixed it this week, let us see).
The trait and skill systems are not point of the loadout system making swapping traits and skills to match different builds difficult.
Deal with those five items, and you'll see more than one build.
Mostly agreed. Except, there are still lazy people and addressing those 5 issues would be in direct conflict with PWE's revenue generation (AKA sales) plans. Otherwise, great point.
WTB T6 ship, for $30 of hard-earned money, with the following:
1. 8 Weapons, Battle Cloak, and 11 consoles (5 Tac/4 Sci)
2. At least 39,000 Hull at lvl 50 and at least 1.25 Shield mod
3. Commander Tac/Int BOFF and Uni Lt Comm BOFF stations
It could have 5 turn rate and look like a box, but I'd buy it ASAP!
By balancing the abilities? It's certainly there for CRF and CSV.
CRF does +50% to one target. CSV does +25% to three targets.
Against groups of three or more targets, CSV is more effective.
Against groups of two targets, CRF and CSV are equally effective.
Against single targets, CRF is more effective.
Even an idiot can figure that one out.
The only issue is properly mixing enemy groups - half the time there should be more than two enemies, half the time there should be less than two enemies.
Your math is bad and you should feel bad.
If I do let's day 1k dps to my one target by default, in your example here's what happens:
Against groups of three targets, CSV does 1.25k to three targets, or 3.75k dps. CRF does it's 1.5k dps.
Against groups of two targets, CRF does it's 1.5k dps, and CSV does it's 1.25k dps to two targets, aka 2.5k dps, aka still significantly ahead.
Don't call other people idiots when you can't even add.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
Acetons are more of a threat vs Cannons, since they only have a 5km range.
That is assuming you know its there or its been deployed already. What if you pop FAW and the ship next to you, one of the targets you want to FAW and is within 5 KM, drops an Aceton? Guess what? FAW doesn't discriminate between hostile targets. It will nail anything hostile it can touch. And that Aceton that just got dropped right on top of you is included.
Also... if you're teamed up with people and Acetons are in play... do you really want to cause the death of a teammate because you wanna unleash your almighty FAW?
I have seen some people in Fleet Alert, with the Gorn as an enemy, pop FAW or just straight up attack an Aceton with energy weapons.
This is fundamentally untrue. If you really understood what makes you feeel that way, you'd realize that you have that totally wrong - BoPs don't work. It's not that FAW doesn't work on BoPs. FAW works on everything.
You see, BoPs generally can't stand up to the punishment it takes to sit there and maintain direct fire on an enemy, regardless of what type of weapon you choose. Straffing attacks won't give you the sustained DPS required to do those videos you speak of. And, yes, you strafe - that's why you fly the lowest hull ship with the highest turn rate. If you wanted to sit there and tank it, you'd use a cruiser. Again, there is no way a ship that basically strafes will actually be able to provide truly elite, sustained DPS.
Of course, BoPs only have 6 weapons. This limits their ability to do DPS. Carriers and science vessels have 6 weapons - and some even have BoP pets Your BoP has less damage potential than a Wells. It has virtually nothing to do with FAW.
They are also Klingon ships. Meaning:
1. They aren't Fed - the most highly played segment of the population, so, the likelyhood of a video is lower.
2. They aren't Romulan - so, using 4 SRO BOFFs is pretty much out of the question.
Now, if you compared a BoP to a Faeht Intel Warbird you would see:
1. The Faeht has 1 more weapon.
2. The Faeht has 1 more Tactical Console.
3. The Faeht is Romulan and has 1 more BOFF station, allowing for 5 SRO BOFFs.
4. The Faeht allows the use of Intel abilities, such as SS and OSS.
5. The Faeht has better shield mod, hull, and crew.
The reason you can't do elite DPS with a BoP is that the BoP is incapable of matching the DPS of many other ships. Anything you can do in a BoP, you can do better in a Faeht. As such, unless someone does it just to do it, BoPs won't get featured in many videos. They just aren't that good.
WTB T6 ship, for $30 of hard-earned money, with the following:
1. 8 Weapons, Battle Cloak, and 11 consoles (5 Tac/4 Sci)
2. At least 39,000 Hull at lvl 50 and at least 1.25 Shield mod
3. Commander Tac/Int BOFF and Uni Lt Comm BOFF stations
It could have 5 turn rate and look like a box, but I'd buy it ASAP!
That is assuming you know its there or its been deployed already. What if you pop FAW and the ship next to you, one of the targets you want to FAW and is within 5 KM, drops an Aceton? Guess what? FAW doesn't discriminate between hostile targets. It will nail anything hostile it can touch. And that Aceton that just got dropped right on top of you is included.
Also... if you're teamed up with people and Acetons are in play... do you really want to cause the death of a teammate because you wanna unleash your almighty FAW?
I have seen some people in Fleet Alert, with the Gorn as an enemy, pop FAW or just straight up attack an Aceton with energy weapons.
Acetons really aren't that dangerous, though.
Anyone with even a modicum of PI is reasonably well protected - and everyone is (or should be) running with some PI, thanks to the Sphere's Tachyon Beam.
My main point is, there's no reason to ever use CRF, CSV, or BO over FAW. The situation you described also applies to CSV, moreso since you're likely within the 5KM range of the Acetons due to the range drop off inherent to Cannons.
I have to agree, back in the day I was concerned about Aceton. These days, meh. I just move the battle out of their range if I think about them at all.
If I do let's day 1k dps to my one target by default, in your example here's what happens:
Against groups of three targets, CSV does 1.25k to three targets, or 3.75k dps. CRF does it's 1.5k dps.
Against groups of two targets, CRF does it's 1.5k dps, and CSV does it's 1.25k dps to two targets, aka 2.5k dps, aka still significantly ahead.
Don't call other people idiots when you can't even add.
Huh, you know, I've always ignored the base damage when looking at CRF vs CSV. Mostly because I only ever compare CRF vs CSV when someone claims CRF is better than CSV.
Also, I didn't call anyone an idiot, he implied I was an idiot.
Huh, you know, I've always ignored the base damage when looking at CRF vs CSV. Mostly because I only ever compare CRF vs CSV when someone claims CRF is better than CSV.
Also, I didn't call anyone an idiot, he implied I was an idiot.
I don't know why you'd ignore the base damage. That's the strength of AOE powers in the game - at rank 1, they both apply more than base dps to two targets (or 3 for CSV/TS) (before fall-off/resistances) - if the secondary targets' debuffed as much and as close, FAW 1 does twice the dps of nothing, and CSV/TS does 3x.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
I don't know why you'd ignore the base damage. That's the strength of AOE powers in the game - at rank 1, they both apply more than base dps to two targets (or 3 for CSV/TS) (before fall-off/resistances) - if the secondary targets' debuffed as much and as close, FAW 1 does twice the dps of nothing, and CSV/TS does 3x.
It had honestly never occurred to me that CSV vs CRF is so imbalanced in terms of performance. The idea that it triples the damage when CRF is just 150% boggles the mind.
It makes the people who insist CRF is better than CSV even against groups just... crazily blind.
It had honestly never occurred to me that CSV vs CRF is so imbalanced in terms of performance. The idea that it triples the damage when CRF is just 150% boggles the mind.
It makes the people who insist CRF is better than CSV even against groups just... crazily blind.
Well, first, those were random multipliers that you threw out - the actual ones paint CRF a better picture. Secondly, they assume that you have 3 targets in arc at the same distance debuffed equally - not a likely story by any means, which also paints CRF a better picture.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
Well, first, those were random multipliers that you threw out - the actual ones paint CRF a better picture. Secondly, they assume that you have 3 targets in arc at the same distance debuffed equally - not a likely story by any means, which also paints CRF a better picture.
How do the actual numbers work out?
I was just going by the "Improves base damage by 25%/50%" in the wiki (and of course forgot about the base damage).
Comments
As has been said, FAW is the best thing for most PVE's because you have AOE targets in organised groups, but it doesn't work so well in PVP where you need targeted spike damage on a single target.
People will always find the path of least resistance for maximum gain. It's human nature.
If people want more build diversity, there should be more game diversity. Less AOE DPS based missions to encourage different skills, tactics and abilities.
In ground, it's common to use different weapon types for different enemies (TR for borg, Pulswave for BHE etc). It should be a similar situation for space PVE. The closest we had to that was NWS, but that's gone.
The problem with this idea, is that a large portion of the player base want a 1 build fits all solution, and it has to be their build and the way they want to play. So if different missions needed different gear, people would cry foul because they don't wanna change, or it's too much grind or too much of a dil sink.
Ultimately, I don't think there's any real solution. There's always going to be an optimised build/strategy, no matter what get's nerfed. The only thing that will ever change is the numbers at the end.
SB24 when you're not at cap?
My DRecruit picked up the mission while passing by, so I popped in.
The key strategy there, especially when (from what I could see) everybody was a Commander, was to know when not to use FAW. I saw a lot of people spamming FAW and getting blown to bits, while I only used it if there were only a few ships in range.
Came in first in spite of not using FAW most of the time.
Of course, my Fleet Admirals can safely use FAW in there and massacre everything.
By balancing the abilities? It's certainly there for CRF and CSV.
CRF does +50% to one target. CSV does +25% to three targets.
Against groups of three or more targets, CSV is more effective.
Against groups of two targets, CRF and CSV are equally effective.
Against single targets, CRF is more effective.
Even an idiot can figure that one out.
The only issue is properly mixing enemy groups - half the time there should be more than two enemies, half the time there should be less than two enemies.
Where to begin with this...
If you do poor damage, that doesn't mean FAW is broken or going to get you killed. It means you have bad gear and/or a bad build. When you do good damage, you don't have to worry much about getting killed.
You have less to worry about if everyone you're playing with also does good damage, because things die faster.
1. 8 Weapons, Battle Cloak, and 11 consoles (5 Tac/4 Sci)
2. At least 39,000 Hull at lvl 50 and at least 1.25 Shield mod
3. Commander Tac/Int BOFF and Uni Lt Comm BOFF stations
It could have 5 turn rate and look like a box, but I'd buy it ASAP!
This is only a problem because you do poor damage. When you get elite gear, overpowering gear, FAW is the most effective thing. Using it when you do, say, 5k DPS (or less) isn't the best thing in the world because you won't get enough shots on your target to kill it. When you're 50k DPS, it means you kill everything, not just the thing you're targeting. The difference is gear, build, and ship.
1. 8 Weapons, Battle Cloak, and 11 consoles (5 Tac/4 Sci)
2. At least 39,000 Hull at lvl 50 and at least 1.25 Shield mod
3. Commander Tac/Int BOFF and Uni Lt Comm BOFF stations
It could have 5 turn rate and look like a box, but I'd buy it ASAP!
Don't stop. Ask why they want that and don't assume it's because they're lazy.
The game has built in incentives for that exact outcome as follows:
Deal with those five items, and you'll see more than one build.
Mostly agreed. Except, there are still lazy people and addressing those 5 issues would be in direct conflict with PWE's revenue generation (AKA sales) plans. Otherwise, great point.
1. 8 Weapons, Battle Cloak, and 11 consoles (5 Tac/4 Sci)
2. At least 39,000 Hull at lvl 50 and at least 1.25 Shield mod
3. Commander Tac/Int BOFF and Uni Lt Comm BOFF stations
It could have 5 turn rate and look like a box, but I'd buy it ASAP!
Your math is bad and you should feel bad.
If I do let's day 1k dps to my one target by default, in your example here's what happens:
Against groups of three targets, CSV does 1.25k to three targets, or 3.75k dps. CRF does it's 1.5k dps.
Against groups of two targets, CRF does it's 1.5k dps, and CSV does it's 1.25k dps to two targets, aka 2.5k dps, aka still significantly ahead.
Don't call other people idiots when you can't even add.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
That is assuming you know its there or its been deployed already. What if you pop FAW and the ship next to you, one of the targets you want to FAW and is within 5 KM, drops an Aceton? Guess what? FAW doesn't discriminate between hostile targets. It will nail anything hostile it can touch. And that Aceton that just got dropped right on top of you is included.
Also... if you're teamed up with people and Acetons are in play... do you really want to cause the death of a teammate because you wanna unleash your almighty FAW?
I have seen some people in Fleet Alert, with the Gorn as an enemy, pop FAW or just straight up attack an Aceton with energy weapons.
This is fundamentally untrue. If you really understood what makes you feeel that way, you'd realize that you have that totally wrong - BoPs don't work. It's not that FAW doesn't work on BoPs. FAW works on everything.
You see, BoPs generally can't stand up to the punishment it takes to sit there and maintain direct fire on an enemy, regardless of what type of weapon you choose. Straffing attacks won't give you the sustained DPS required to do those videos you speak of. And, yes, you strafe - that's why you fly the lowest hull ship with the highest turn rate. If you wanted to sit there and tank it, you'd use a cruiser. Again, there is no way a ship that basically strafes will actually be able to provide truly elite, sustained DPS.
Of course, BoPs only have 6 weapons. This limits their ability to do DPS. Carriers and science vessels have 6 weapons - and some even have BoP pets
They are also Klingon ships. Meaning:
1. They aren't Fed - the most highly played segment of the population, so, the likelyhood of a video is lower.
2. They aren't Romulan - so, using 4 SRO BOFFs is pretty much out of the question.
Now, if you compared a BoP to a Faeht Intel Warbird you would see:
1. The Faeht has 1 more weapon.
2. The Faeht has 1 more Tactical Console.
3. The Faeht is Romulan and has 1 more BOFF station, allowing for 5 SRO BOFFs.
4. The Faeht allows the use of Intel abilities, such as SS and OSS.
5. The Faeht has better shield mod, hull, and crew.
The reason you can't do elite DPS with a BoP is that the BoP is incapable of matching the DPS of many other ships. Anything you can do in a BoP, you can do better in a Faeht. As such, unless someone does it just to do it, BoPs won't get featured in many videos. They just aren't that good.
1. 8 Weapons, Battle Cloak, and 11 consoles (5 Tac/4 Sci)
2. At least 39,000 Hull at lvl 50 and at least 1.25 Shield mod
3. Commander Tac/Int BOFF and Uni Lt Comm BOFF stations
It could have 5 turn rate and look like a box, but I'd buy it ASAP!
Acetons really aren't that dangerous, though.
Anyone with even a modicum of PI is reasonably well protected - and everyone is (or should be) running with some PI, thanks to the Sphere's Tachyon Beam.
My main point is, there's no reason to ever use CRF, CSV, or BO over FAW. The situation you described also applies to CSV, moreso since you're likely within the 5KM range of the Acetons due to the range drop off inherent to Cannons.
I have to agree, back in the day I was concerned about Aceton. These days, meh. I just move the battle out of their range if I think about them at all.
Huh, you know, I've always ignored the base damage when looking at CRF vs CSV. Mostly because I only ever compare CRF vs CSV when someone claims CRF is better than CSV.
Also, I didn't call anyone an idiot, he implied I was an idiot.
I don't know why you'd ignore the base damage. That's the strength of AOE powers in the game - at rank 1, they both apply more than base dps to two targets (or 3 for CSV/TS) (before fall-off/resistances) - if the secondary targets' debuffed as much and as close, FAW 1 does twice the dps of nothing, and CSV/TS does 3x.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
It had honestly never occurred to me that CSV vs CRF is so imbalanced in terms of performance. The idea that it triples the damage when CRF is just 150% boggles the mind.
It makes the people who insist CRF is better than CSV even against groups just... crazily blind.
Well, first, those were random multipliers that you threw out - the actual ones paint CRF a better picture. Secondly, they assume that you have 3 targets in arc at the same distance debuffed equally - not a likely story by any means, which also paints CRF a better picture.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
How do the actual numbers work out?
I was just going by the "Improves base damage by 25%/50%" in the wiki (and of course forgot about the base damage).