Beams are pretty awful for Single Target DPS, cannon are vastly superior.
I have a 60 Sci Capt with All Mk XIV Ultra Rare Beams and his DPS gets outclassed by my Defiant with Mk XII Rare's with my level 52. Both ships are T5U, but the Defiant with the cannons is only level 2.
The only real difference, Cannons vs Beams.
Cannons murder a single target in seconds, beams take ages.
FAW is a better multi-target ability, but cannons are vastly superior single target DPS especially with Rapid Fire.
As a fairly newcomer to STO, I think the problem isn't just with FAW, but on the game's focus on AOE attacks as a whole. FAW is just part of a bigger balance issue in the game.
I think there should also be a shift away from the focus on AOE. Taking down a ship should involve focused fire in my opinion, not carpet bombing everything.
Like in other MMOs AOE weapon attacks should come with a penalty. For energy weapons, it could be in energy usage and accuracy and for torpedoes and mines, it should be accuracy. AOE skills should not add damage to a weapon. The energy usage or accuracy would mean there is a general drop on DPS as the AOE attack ends.
To compensate for the loss of DPS and accuracy, there should be a secondary effect added to AOE. It can be a debuff, a subsystem taken offline, a placate, confuse or a sensor jam. Secondary effects can be based off the weapon being used. These secondary effects would make it possible to pick-off targets one at a time with focused fire. Of course these skills should be fixed to affect NPCs as well.
Single target skills could remain the same to avoid increasing the power creep.
NPCs will likewise have to be rebalanced. Since the focus would move from AOE kills to taking down targets one at a time, there should be less of them. NPC hull strength should also be reduced, but each of them should gain a heal for both shields and hull. This would increase the need for spike damage to take them down.
I think a general move away from sustained AOE DPS to single target spike damage accomplished through debuffs (whether single or AOE target debuffs) and situational weapon buff abilities can be a step towards balancing PVE and PVP, while making alternate role-based-builds viable and as important as any other build.
If it's going to be done correctly, fixing FAW, or balancing all other weapons, skills will require major work at this point. It's going to hurt some builds, and it will involve a lot of nerfs, but players should adapt if the game is to be made better.
5 years and nothing in this game has ever been balanced, they aren't about to start now.
So let's say they nerf FAW, then the 2nd best ability will pop up as the meta and everyone will use that. If they aren't going to balance things then nerfing one ability is only going to replace one OP power with another. At least now FAW is something everyone can use. What happens when the meta becomes a command or intel ability? That would be allot worse.
Again why I would rather beams be the kings in the game than cannons. otherwise STO would once again be Escorts online (cruisers and science ships need not apply)
It is an amazing suprise to some people that there are those of us interested in pushing ourselves to our limit somewhere. As such, we happen to use what's optimal. And yet, for whatever reason, we're made fun of for it. And I really don't get why.
You aren't pushing yourself to the limit, but rather just limiting yourself. What's optimal is everyone using the same ship/build because the game is grossly unbalanced. You get made fun of because you have limited yourself so much just to get a big number on a dps meter when anyone can do that by limiting themselves as well. You are just chasing a shallow victory.
Beams are pretty awful for Single Target DPS, cannon are vastly superior.
I have a 60 Sci Capt with All Mk XIV Ultra Rare Beams and his DPS gets outclassed by my Defiant with Mk XII Rare's with my level 52. Both ships are T5U, but the Defiant with the cannons is only level 2.
The only real difference, Cannons vs Beams.
Cannons murder a single target in seconds, beams take ages.
FAW is a better multi-target ability, but cannons are vastly superior single target DPS especially with Rapid Fire.
That was true about 3 years ago.
That's no true nowadays, there is a difference but it's rather small. Then you have Surgical Strikes.
So many stuff were added that makes beams even better.
And then, I don't know if there is any need for single target anymore, pretty much all the content nowadays is about AOE.
You aren't pushing yourself to the limit, but rather just limiting yourself. What's optimal is everyone using the same ship/build because the game is grossly unbalanced. You get made fun of because you have limited yourself so much just to get a big number on a dps meter when anyone can do that by limiting themselves as well. You are just chasing a shallow victory.
Ignoring everything else that's disagreeable with your statements, why not?
What else is there to do, run the same missions over and over?
STO's endgame is either honing your build, or chatting.
Okay, since you're nerfing all the beam attack abilities so that they're no longer buffs but simply change how a weapon functions, how are you going to nerf cannon attack abilities? :rolleyes:
Abilities should never reduce effectiveness. There should never be a "click to do worse" button when there are costs to acquiring that button.
It is an amazing suprise to some people that there are those of us interested in pushing ourselves to our limit somewhere. As such, we happen to use what's optimal. And yet, for whatever reason, we're made fun of for it. And I really don't get why.
Ignoring everything else that's disagreeable with your statements, why not?
What else is there to do, run the same missions over and over?
STO's endgame is either honing your build, or chatting.
What's to hone? Pick the most OP ship and powers. And once you get to certain point (not even the top dps) the game becomes face roll easy anyway. And don't you just run the same missions over and over to hone your build? So you complete them a few seconds faster. Congrats you win the race.....you win nothing except maybe some feeling you accomplished something shallow and meaningless. Congrats to you.
As I said before the forums are biased towards cannons, when cannons were the kings of DPS no one seemed to complain. As I said in another thread cannons are NOT meant to be the kings of DPS cannons are meant to be weapons for burst damage not sustained damage.
That is an interesting way of looking at things seeing as the only Spike Energy dmg skill is a beam skill not cannon.
Believe it or not rapid fire is a DPS skill not a spike skill.
The first round of devs back before launch envisioned a game where beams where the universal every day weapon... lower over all DPS while being the most versatile weapons. They could target subs, sustain some pressure (faw 1.0 was far far less of a oh my word dps skill) or provide the highest spike dmg with overload. Cannons where seen as a higher dmg sustained weapon that COULD be spiky if you used the lower arc higher dmg versions. As it was never intended that we would have ships with insane turn and speed that could sit in a 45 degree with ease... the bop was closest to that, however even bop 1.0 traded a lot of Dmg potential in part as a trade for the turn.
Torps where intended to be the spike weapons... all energy was intended to be mainly sustained dmg as you would expect in a Trek game. Pound the shields then spike the hull.
It even worked that way for the first 4 or 5 months. I think the game is to far gone for us to ever get back to a point where that standard trek weapon setup would make sense anymore however. Cryptic simply power creeped all the wrong things for that to be possible.
Abilities should never reduce effectiveness. There should never be a "click to do worse" button when there are costs to acquiring that button.
That's idiotic. How in the hell will single target abilities be effective when AOE/multiple target abilities maintain effectiveness, even on single targets? Every game developer has that figured out.
Except Cryptic.
How is Beam Overload ever going to be a relevant Single Target Option when Beam Fire At Will is the best answer even on single targets as well as hitting multiple targets?
Sure, Cannons are doable; but they're nowhere near as universally usable or effective (thanks, Overcapping bug that's existed for 5 years!) as Beams.
Torps can be done too - but they need a highly specific build in order for it to do what FAW does.
FAW does it all, single target AND AoE, and it does it way too easily.
Maybe it's time we buffed up other things, to make them more desirable? Drains (both power and shield), disables, tanks, etc.
I seriously don't understand the hate of FAW. It's a great ability when used properly. Enemies drop mines, etc., FAW it. Tholian web? FAW it! Since there's no PvP I odn't see the issue...
However, when sed improperly and tossed about like a cheap wine, it can be bothersome. FAW + CE = bad. Ignore the shards and knock out the entity.... I don't know if it still does this, but the CE used to HEAL when ppl used scatter volley, full spread or FAW against the shards. Made killig the thing a nightmare.
Other than that.... my Rom has beams and DHCs on her scim and uses Toep Full Spread and FAW on occasion. It's great when that other ship moves just fast enough to stay off your bow... I could, I guess, craft the T15 DHCs with a wider arc but meh.
However, when sed improperly and tossed about like a cheap wine, it can be bothersome. FAW + CE = bad. Ignore the shards and knock out the entity.... I don't know if it still does this, but the CE used to HEAL when ppl used scatter volley, full spread or FAW against the shards. Made killig the thing a nightmare.
Not sure how long you've been out of the loop on, but that's not how it works anymore. The large spawns chase people, on contact with one of your allies, they damage it and split into small shards, which, if they return to the entity (as they to can be destroyed) heal it and grant it increased damage. So, AOE is king in CCA.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
Not sure how long you've been out of the loop on, but that's not how it works anymore. The large spawns chase people, on contact with one of your allies, they damage it and split into small shards, which, if they return to the entity (as they to can be destroyed) heal it and grant it increased damage. So, AOE is king in CCA.
Shards don't heal it anymore, but other than that you're spot on
Shards don't heal it anymore, but other than that you're spot on
I'm pretty sure it has some source of self-healing; I know I do significant damage to the point where it's hp shouldn't be static or climbing in a pug. Or am I just crazy?
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
Not sure how long you've been out of the loop on, but that's not how it works anymore. The large spawns chase people, on contact with one of your allies, they damage it and split into small shards, which, if they return to the entity (as they to can be destroyed) heal it and grant it increased damage. So, AOE is king in CCA.
Other than the CCA event recently I haven't taken the CE on in YEARS....
I'm pretty sure it has some source of self-healing; I know I do significant damage to the point where it's hp shouldn't be static or climbing in a pug. Or am I just crazy?
I think it's just a fast regeneration rate. The shards did heal it in the past but was removed (last year maybe? I'm not too sure). I remember seeing it in the patch notes.
I seriously don't understand the hate of FAW. It's a great ability when used properly. Enemies drop mines, etc., FAW it. Tholian web? FAW it! Since there's no PvP I odn't see the issue...
The problem is, when is the wrong time to use FAW?
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Heh - every time I think back at the TNG episode where a million Enterprises popped into existence and the whacked out Riker got blown to bits by the "prime" Enterprise I keep hearing "Fire at Will!" in my head over and over...
I don't see this as a hate thread towards FAW and I agree it is a very good ability. The problem is that it is currently the most viable skill to build your ship around of if you want to deal high enough DPS for higher tier STFs and missions. To me at least, the lack of build options is hurting the game. More varieties of viable builds and play tactics would make the game more fun IMO.
I don't see this as a hate thread towards FAW and I agree it is a very good ability. The problem is that it is currently the most viable skill to build your ship around of if you want to deal high enough DPS for higher tier STFs and missions. To me at least, the lack of build options is hurting the game. More varieties of viable builds and play tactics would make the game more fun IMO.
meanwhile I'm sitting here building my ship and I just wonder how anyone can be using that ability :P
well but I'm a king of a guy that when point guns at a target want that target dead at priori - and everytime I used FAW it hit everything except what I wanted to die first....
actually the only time I used FAW and it wasn't terrabad was yesterday during temporeal ambassador mission when I got put into enterprice-C and I was like flying in circles randomly shoting everything with face like "i have no idea what I'm doing"....
well my warbird of same tier build mostly around canons would kill that group a way faster.....
I think biggest issues with FAW is that building ship around it does not require much thinking especially when piloting - you don't think about primary targets or any advanced tactics - you just fly around spamming skill shooting everything in range.
and it works best when all team does the same hence most of people does not even try to research any other way to get the job done.
for same reason I keep hearing people calling anti-proton best dps build and meanwhile my firend that tends to overthinking build mathematically proved plasma beating it (especially on rom ships)
[if interested on details pm this is not thread for that :P]
do I think that FAW needs much tweaking?
well in my opinion it would work better if it was scatter volley of beams (would actually consider using it) but it does not requires any nerf or so - it's issue not withthe skill itself but of the community overal state of the mind....
Comments
I have a 60 Sci Capt with All Mk XIV Ultra Rare Beams and his DPS gets outclassed by my Defiant with Mk XII Rare's with my level 52. Both ships are T5U, but the Defiant with the cannons is only level 2.
The only real difference, Cannons vs Beams.
Cannons murder a single target in seconds, beams take ages.
FAW is a better multi-target ability, but cannons are vastly superior single target DPS especially with Rapid Fire.
the server is laggy as hell but FAW didnt help
I think there should also be a shift away from the focus on AOE. Taking down a ship should involve focused fire in my opinion, not carpet bombing everything.
Like in other MMOs AOE weapon attacks should come with a penalty. For energy weapons, it could be in energy usage and accuracy and for torpedoes and mines, it should be accuracy. AOE skills should not add damage to a weapon. The energy usage or accuracy would mean there is a general drop on DPS as the AOE attack ends.
To compensate for the loss of DPS and accuracy, there should be a secondary effect added to AOE. It can be a debuff, a subsystem taken offline, a placate, confuse or a sensor jam. Secondary effects can be based off the weapon being used. These secondary effects would make it possible to pick-off targets one at a time with focused fire. Of course these skills should be fixed to affect NPCs as well.
Single target skills could remain the same to avoid increasing the power creep.
NPCs will likewise have to be rebalanced. Since the focus would move from AOE kills to taking down targets one at a time, there should be less of them. NPC hull strength should also be reduced, but each of them should gain a heal for both shields and hull. This would increase the need for spike damage to take them down.
I think a general move away from sustained AOE DPS to single target spike damage accomplished through debuffs (whether single or AOE target debuffs) and situational weapon buff abilities can be a step towards balancing PVE and PVP, while making alternate role-based-builds viable and as important as any other build.
If it's going to be done correctly, fixing FAW, or balancing all other weapons, skills will require major work at this point. It's going to hurt some builds, and it will involve a lot of nerfs, but players should adapt if the game is to be made better.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Again why I would rather beams be the kings in the game than cannons. otherwise STO would once again be Escorts online (cruisers and science ships need not apply)
You aren't pushing yourself to the limit, but rather just limiting yourself. What's optimal is everyone using the same ship/build because the game is grossly unbalanced. You get made fun of because you have limited yourself so much just to get a big number on a dps meter when anyone can do that by limiting themselves as well. You are just chasing a shallow victory.
That's no true nowadays, there is a difference but it's rather small. Then you have Surgical Strikes.
So many stuff were added that makes beams even better.
And then, I don't know if there is any need for single target anymore, pretty much all the content nowadays is about AOE.
Ignoring everything else that's disagreeable with your statements, why not?
What else is there to do, run the same missions over and over?
STO's endgame is either honing your build, or chatting.
Okay, since you're nerfing all the beam attack abilities so that they're no longer buffs but simply change how a weapon functions, how are you going to nerf cannon attack abilities? :rolleyes:
Abilities should never reduce effectiveness. There should never be a "click to do worse" button when there are costs to acquiring that button.
Crab bucket mentality. You also see it when black people accuse other black people of "selling out".
What's to hone? Pick the most OP ship and powers. And once you get to certain point (not even the top dps) the game becomes face roll easy anyway. And don't you just run the same missions over and over to hone your build? So you complete them a few seconds faster. Congrats you win the race.....you win nothing except maybe some feeling you accomplished something shallow and meaningless. Congrats to you.
That is an interesting way of looking at things seeing as the only Spike Energy dmg skill is a beam skill not cannon.
Believe it or not rapid fire is a DPS skill not a spike skill.
The first round of devs back before launch envisioned a game where beams where the universal every day weapon... lower over all DPS while being the most versatile weapons. They could target subs, sustain some pressure (faw 1.0 was far far less of a oh my word dps skill) or provide the highest spike dmg with overload. Cannons where seen as a higher dmg sustained weapon that COULD be spiky if you used the lower arc higher dmg versions. As it was never intended that we would have ships with insane turn and speed that could sit in a 45 degree with ease... the bop was closest to that, however even bop 1.0 traded a lot of Dmg potential in part as a trade for the turn.
Torps where intended to be the spike weapons... all energy was intended to be mainly sustained dmg as you would expect in a Trek game. Pound the shields then spike the hull.
It even worked that way for the first 4 or 5 months. I think the game is to far gone for us to ever get back to a point where that standard trek weapon setup would make sense anymore however. Cryptic simply power creeped all the wrong things for that to be possible.
I'm sure that was said by all the Escort & DHC users when this game was Escorts Online :cool:
That's idiotic. How in the hell will single target abilities be effective when AOE/multiple target abilities maintain effectiveness, even on single targets? Every game developer has that figured out.
Except Cryptic.
How is Beam Overload ever going to be a relevant Single Target Option when Beam Fire At Will is the best answer even on single targets as well as hitting multiple targets?
FAW3 is a Lt Commander skill while CSV3 is a Commander skill!
this is not normal. put CSV at same level than FAW
even TS3 is a Lt Comander skill
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I seriously don't understand the hate of FAW. It's a great ability when used properly. Enemies drop mines, etc., FAW it. Tholian web? FAW it! Since there's no PvP I odn't see the issue...
However, when sed improperly and tossed about like a cheap wine, it can be bothersome. FAW + CE = bad. Ignore the shards and knock out the entity.... I don't know if it still does this, but the CE used to HEAL when ppl used scatter volley, full spread or FAW against the shards. Made killig the thing a nightmare.
Other than that.... my Rom has beams and DHCs on her scim and uses Toep Full Spread and FAW on occasion. It's great when that other ship moves just fast enough to stay off your bow... I could, I guess, craft the T15 DHCs with a wider arc but meh.
Not sure how long you've been out of the loop on, but that's not how it works anymore. The large spawns chase people, on contact with one of your allies, they damage it and split into small shards, which, if they return to the entity (as they to can be destroyed) heal it and grant it increased damage. So, AOE is king in CCA.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Shards don't heal it anymore, but other than that you're spot on
I'm pretty sure it has some source of self-healing; I know I do significant damage to the point where it's hp shouldn't be static or climbing in a pug. Or am I just crazy?
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
No, he didn't. As in, he didn't generalize an entire race.
Did you abandon logic as soon as you saw the word "black?"
Other than the CCA event recently I haven't taken the CE on in YEARS....
I think it's just a fast regeneration rate. The shards did heal it in the past but was removed (last year maybe? I'm not too sure). I remember seeing it in the patch notes.
The problem is, when is the wrong time to use FAW?
In PvP vs anyone with FBP, and in BDE when freeing...
in NWS, if your ship could slot cannons (JK that's gone)...
Umm... we're in an AOE-Centric game. Either FAW or TS or CSV should be dominant.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
When someone drops Aceton Assimilators.
Also around anyone named Will. :P
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Heh - every time I think back at the TNG episode where a million Enterprises popped into existence and the whacked out Riker got blown to bits by the "prime" Enterprise I keep hearing "Fire at Will!" in my head over and over...
Actually, FAW is arguably the "safest" of all of the energy weapons buffs to be using when someone pops a surprise FBP on you.
Acetons are more of a threat vs Cannons, since they only have a 5km range.
Oh you know how it is. They're not really running away, they're merely advancing in a different direction.
I don't see this as a hate thread towards FAW and I agree it is a very good ability. The problem is that it is currently the most viable skill to build your ship around of if you want to deal high enough DPS for higher tier STFs and missions. To me at least, the lack of build options is hurting the game. More varieties of viable builds and play tactics would make the game more fun IMO.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
meanwhile I'm sitting here building my ship and I just wonder how anyone can be using that ability :P
well but I'm a king of a guy that when point guns at a target want that target dead at priori - and everytime I used FAW it hit everything except what I wanted to die first....
actually the only time I used FAW and it wasn't terrabad was yesterday during temporeal ambassador mission when I got put into enterprice-C and I was like flying in circles randomly shoting everything with face like "i have no idea what I'm doing"....
well my warbird of same tier build mostly around canons would kill that group a way faster.....
I think biggest issues with FAW is that building ship around it does not require much thinking especially when piloting - you don't think about primary targets or any advanced tactics - you just fly around spamming skill shooting everything in range.
and it works best when all team does the same hence most of people does not even try to research any other way to get the job done.
for same reason I keep hearing people calling anti-proton best dps build and meanwhile my firend that tends to overthinking build mathematically proved plasma beating it (especially on rom ships)
[if interested on details pm this is not thread for that :P]
do I think that FAW needs much tweaking?
well in my opinion it would work better if it was scatter volley of beams (would actually consider using it) but it does not requires any nerf or so - it's issue not withthe skill itself but of the community overal state of the mind....