"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
What you don't realize about Ocampa is that if anyone had bothered to look anywhere on the planet besides the one place where humanoids lived, they'd have seen the giant worms tunneling through the sand, entrapping all the planetary water and leaving pockets of spice melange...
Hey, the naturist girl graduated...we're not THAT weird; I mean, it's not like we have a "naked tree" like Reed does*.
We do have Psi Phi (not a frat), and Anime Club, and the LARP that's tomorrow, and the Dactyl Hunt which is basically the LARP with a different theme and a lot of yelling and supersoakers, but we're not weird, really.
Vulcanoids (a) live considerably longer than Humans and (b) have incredibly violent and passionate emotions. Without their logic, Vulcans are mercurial and often vicious.
It also blatantly ignores science that's actually pretty damn well-documented and already internally consistent, and which does NOT allow for some space BS being a vital part of it.
It's also fiction... Fiction does not have to meet your criteria to be considered valid... You might not like it, and that's fine, but that does not diminish the work... Writer's License...
V
People throw that justification at me, and I just say "OK, so the explanation that Native Americans were half-animal savages until magic space white guys taught them how to be human, that's OK?"
I've been told, that Native Americans didn't ride horses until they were exposed to them by the White Man, and were existing in a Stone Age level. Now, I don't know how true that is, but I consider it plausible (Are horses indigenous to North America?) The idea that aliens have contacted Human cultures (especially South American ones, such as the Nazca Lines) in the past is neither new, nor offensive (unless you choose to allow yourself to find it offensive because Native American history is something you care about) it could even be accurate...
Internal consistency is mandatory, but if you're going to use real-world science, at least use a technobabble explanation that any adult won't instantly see through!
I would counter that most adults would simply accept that they are watching a story and not insist that it be literal or accurate...
Look, all they needed to do was have Harry Kim say "There's a really low percentage of water on that planet, but I'm seeing architecture and rock formations that only form in the presence of oceans. Something caused this planet to lose 95% of its water." And then have the Caretaker say "Reason X caused the planet to lose most of its water, which destroyed the environment, and it's sort of our fault because Y, so I have to help this species".
They could have had that, but they didn't. It's Star Trek, they chose to go with technobabble... If you can't deal with that because it doesn't fit with your scientific knowledge...
Hmmm. I...eh, I dunno. Several of my professors would say that the more intractable someone is the more they need the advice.
Please apply this to what has been said to you (by several people) about your 'compulsion to comment' in instances such as the thread which you drove Shevet to have closed or other discussions where you have been accused of using your opinion as objective fact...
...that's the same thing. If you say "I wrote this thing, thoughts?", you're tacitly asking if there's any ways to make it better.
I disagree. Asking someone for their opinion does not imply the desire to revise one's work, merely to seek an opinion on what is presented as it is presented.
For example, your initial comment on Chapter 8, is telling a character how to (not)proceed. As mentioned, this does not become an issue, but had we chosen to actually have Kian go into a spiral of pheromone addiction or obsessively hanging out with Deltans just to feel the effect of their pheromones, that would be our decision and privilege as writers, and not something for you to dictate in such a manner. If you then decide to choose to not read on because you don't like reading about substance abuse, that is then your decision and privilege as reader...
Something else to bear in mind with your commentaries, are that they are not always accurate...
In Chapter 6 when Lonnie was stalking Noakes, you expressed disbelief about his nanite-camo suit -- Despite the fact that nanites had never been mentioned, and his suit had been clearly described as being holographic in nature -- A better point to raise, would have been that, if his suit was masking his presence both visually and technologically, why did the door sensor react to his presence? ;-) I admit, that was me giving the readers too much of a clue, but it would at least have been a legitimate point to raise for critique, and I would have held my hands up to it ^_^
In Chapter 8, you asserted that Kian should be in one on one therapy, but in Chapter 7 it was stated that she was in therapy with Dr. Rache, whom Ael then identified as a specialist in counselling victims/survivors of sexual assaults, and given her group therapies had been identified as group therapies, it's not unreasonable to infer that those sessions were one on one, as Lees and Cheron's sessions were one on one...
Also, you haven't been outraged (or perhaps not noted) that what Kian did to I'K'rR'h was later identified as being, by Pentaxian standards, the equivalent of sticking a hand in her underwear and feeling her up (although as noted, I'K'rR'h was rather amused by it, and not at all offended, and do bear in mind that the scene was written months ago, and not written as reaction to recent discussions to bait a response) nor outraged that Ashiyana hugged Kian, who has often been described as having touch issues. Perhaps the difference there being that Ashiyana had not been told of Kian's issues, and was simply being friendly, and once she came into contact with her, sensed her pain/turmoil, and allowed her to draw comfort from her for as long as she (Kian) needed... Feedback is most certainly welcome, but please understand that it is strictly as review, not guiding/shaping the story (which is almost wrapped up) and mostly, we just want folks to enjoy it and hopefully find the characters interesting and engaging :cool:
I may have dropped the word "Mary-Sue" when a girl with a supermodel figure and 6 names killed Sauron and resurrected Boromir...in the same paragraph...
Ahh, one of those kind of fanfics... 'Nuff said ;-)
And even if I was wearing something stereotypically homosexual, I would have been completely within my rights to be surprised at experiencing homophobic abuse*.
*Since I wasn't really paying attention and didn't recognize that the person who leveled the abuse was a certain type of bigot until they were already hurling nasty words at me. If I HAD been paying attention, then I could've expected it either way, because that particular person...well, let's just say that they live in a very small and hateful world.
I just recalled your comment about wearing a nighty somewhere... And fair enough, sounds like someone not smart enough to come up with anything more creative/witty than calling someone a f*g...
You're talking to a man who was homeschooled, lives at a school where pyjamas and a shirt without stains is considered well-dressed, and whose roommate has worn the same jacket for the past six months without washing it once.
I just don't have the perspective to understand your experiences.
Those aren't exactly things to be brought up as defence points But as for my experiences, I've not been subjected to ridicule for what I wear in public, because when I leave the house, I wear conventional clothing :-D I was simply pointing out that if people dress in unconventional ways, while that is quite within their rights, they really shouldn't express surprise if they are then mocked by others... We have people around here who will shout "Bwaaargh" or something equally inane out of a car window while passing a pedestrian just to get some kind of reaction... (My reaction is to regret not having 2nd Amendment rights, and not having a Walther P99 on my hip, because I'm a pretty good shot, and people like that are just contaminating the gene pool... ;-) ) My sister in law is the same generation as yourself (a few years older but close enough) and having been around a few of her loser friends as they were growing up, got to see all the stupid fashions, and hear all the angst about people making fun of what they were wearing... Simple answer (in general, not you specifically) is don't want people to make fun, the wear regular clothes (although to be fair, the tool you've described sounds like the kind of wanker who will just be abusive to anyone who's not one of their friends...)
Well, given that certain Bio professors here regularly look like they were dressed by blind monkeys...and all of the professors here really don't care what you wear as long as you get the work done on time and you're learning stuff and enjoying the material...seems like a harsh attitude.
Being stricter than what one is used to, is not harsh... As before, it's about respect for oneself and others... Every school I attended had a set uniform, and although when I was at college, my course (essentially film and media studies, with English, photography and a few other things thrown in) there was no uniform, everyone was expected to dress appropriately (ie Outdoor Clothes) Hair and makeup students had to wear the same kind of 'scrubs' which professional beauticians wear... Try rocking up to work in pyjamas and see how long you stay employed
Ehhhhh, more like the Trabe having their own society, and deciding to keep stupid, incompetent Kazon in charge while assassinating those Kazon which show signs of intelligence; thus freeing the Trabe to have their own quiet little society while the Kazon brag about how great they are.
There were two aliens with similar make-up in that Tom/Harry Hurt-Comfort fic--uh, I mean, "The Chute", but that doesn't mean much, they could've been caught trying to fiddle with the local government.
Don't diminish, it's not a fic, it's released canon... And either way, they are described as Trabe, and shows that they weren't in any way 'buffered' by the Kazon...
Anyway, I like my hypothesis simply because it's better than the alternative...which is that the Trabe and Kazon are both really as dumb as they seem.
And what would be wrong with that? And who's to say the Kazon were dumb? You? Because a few managed to 'blow themselves up with a replicator'? I would have thought that someone with such an interest in the sciences of the natural world would have a more rational anthropological mind, rather than to judge a group(s) to the extent which you do... What you say about the Kazon, is the same as what some bigots say about the African-Americans gang-bangers who live in near-slum conditions, and view them as nothing more than a bunch of 'dumb ni**ers'. Doesn't matter that they are the disenfranchised remnants of a slave culture which (until recently) has not had the same access to education, housing, career prospects as White people. It's real easy to look down on someone who hasn't had the same opportunities, but that doesn't mean seeing the whole picture or being correct in said judgement. The Kazon were created specifically as a Bloods and Crips analogue, and so everything which drives and shapes gang culture applies to them.
To use a fic-example... (something I usually try and refrain from) If you were to send William Abel Kane (the current generation) into mid-90s South-Central LA from his snooty Boston upbringing and Harvard schooling, he's going to get turned over and lucky to walk out alive. If Lamar Wilkins gets sent up north to 'high society', he's going to look like a pig-ignorant thug... Yet each man is the 'king of his own jungle'. In fact, this gives me an idea for a novel...
But back on point... I'd say the Kazon are at about the same social/technological level as Humanity at the point of First Contact with the Vulcans, and to judge them by comparison to the Federation, is to not only do them a disservice, but to willfully ignore what they actually are, and the forces which made them that way...
Supported by what canon examples of senior Vulcans (or Romulans) suffering long-term mental traumas such as PTSD?
Well, first off all of the senior Vulcanoids we saw were Ambassadors and military leaders, where insanity would be an even bigger problem than normal...but I will note that Sarek was suffering from some pretty severe mental illness in TNG.
Primarily I'm drawing conclusions based on canonical facts.
It's also fiction... Fiction does not have to meet your criteria to be considered valid... You might not like it, and that's fine, but that does not diminish the work... Writer's License...
IMO, it DOES diminish the work. If you have to resort to something obviously wrong and ridiculous to justify something, then you're doing it wrong.
Sort of how Quick & Ruben (2009) gets anyone who cites it laughed out of the room, because the authors used an anatomical diagram that any three-year-old, much less a specialist in the field, could have told them was wrong--and the fact that these men WERE ostensibly specialists says that they KNEW what they were doing was BS, yet they did it anyway...
I've been told, that Native Americans didn't ride horses until they were exposed to them by the White Man, and were existing in a Stone Age level. Now, I don't know how true that is, but I consider it plausible (Are horses indigenous to North America?)
Look up Cahokia.
Horses evolved in North America, but went extinct in the region fairly early on in the Ice Ages. Some hippidiform horses survived a little longer in South America, but from at least the last Ice Age onwards they were gone from the hemisphere. Notably, they were gone for longer than the rest of the Ice Age megafauna--even mammoths survived after the last glacial retreat in the form of the grazing-specialist Jefferson's Mammoth (a descendant of the Ice Age Columbian mammoth), before Human predation wiped them out.
The idea that aliens have contacted Human cultures (especially South American ones, such as the Nazca Lines) in the past is neither new, nor offensive (unless you choose to allow yourself to find it offensive because Native American history is something you care about) it could even be accurate...
Since I do care about Native American history, I AM offended (and it's not a choice, it's an instinctive reaction) to the very idea. Saying that aliens were involved insinuates that the Nazca culture lacked the mathematical tools to create the sculptures...which is BS, because Cahokia clearly did and nobody accuses THEM of having been taught by magic space white men.
They could have had that, but they didn't. It's Star Trek, they chose to go with technobabble... If you can't deal with that because it doesn't fit with your scientific knowledge...
Again, the fact that they went with obviously ridiculous technobabble weakens the story by being a flimsy cover-up for the weaknesses of the script.
I disagree. Asking someone for their opinion does not imply the desire to revise one's work, merely to seek an opinion on what is presented as it is presented.
...yeah, that's the same thing. If you want to know what people think, you're tacitly expecting people to point out flaws in your writing so that you can fix them and/or not make the same mistakes again.
For example, your initial comment on Chapter 8, is telling a character how to (not)proceed. As mentioned, this does not become an issue, but had we chosen to actually have Kian go into a spiral of pheromone addiction or obsessively hanging out with Deltans just to feel the effect of their pheromones, that would be our decision and privilege as writers, and not something for you to dictate in such a manner. If you then decide to choose to not read on because you don't like reading about substance abuse, that is then your decision and privilege as reader...
Something else to bear in mind with your commentaries, are that they are not always accurate...
In Chapter 6 when Lonnie was stalking Noakes, you expressed disbelief about his nanite-camo suit -- Despite the fact that nanites had never been mentioned, and his suit had been clearly described as being holographic in nature -- A better point to raise, would have been that, if his suit was masking his presence both visually and technologically, why did the door sensor react to his presence? ;-) I admit, that was me giving the readers too much of a clue, but it would at least have been a legitimate point to raise for critique, and I would have held my hands up to it ^_^
In Chapter 8, you asserted that Kian should be in one on one therapy, but in Chapter 7 it was stated that she was in therapy with Dr. Rache, whom Ael then identified as a specialist in counselling victims/survivors of sexual assaults, and given her group therapies had been identified as group therapies, it's not unreasonable to infer that those sessions were one on one, as Lees and Cheron's sessions were one on one...
Hmmm, the dev team thinks of everything.
I officially retract that recommendation, since it's already been covered. However, I do question the usefulness of group therapy in her case.
Also, you haven't been outraged (or perhaps not noted) that what Kian did to I'K'rR'h was later identified as being, by Pentaxian standards, the equivalent of sticking a hand in her underwear and feeling her up (although as noted, I'K'rR'h was rather amused by it, and not at all offended, and do bear in mind that the scene was written months ago, and not written as reaction to recent discussions to bait a response) nor outraged that Ashiyana hugged Kian, who has often been described as having touch issues. Perhaps the difference there being that Ashiyana had not been told of Kian's issues, and was simply being friendly, and once she came into contact with her, sensed her pain/turmoil, and allowed her to draw comfort from her for as long as she (Kian) needed... Feedback is most certainly welcome, but please understand that it is strictly as review, not guiding/shaping the story (which is almost wrapped up) and mostly, we just want folks to enjoy it and hopefully find the characters interesting and engaging :cool:
I'm not outraged about those cases because they were both cases of ignorance...just like D'trel would be the one in the wrong if someone who didn't know who she is started praising the Tal'Shiar and got her sword in his lungs, it's not scream-inducingly bad if you don't know someone's culture or personal history.
I did consider mentioning both cases, but I anticipated that you'd say something like "yeah, that's just because character X doesn't realize the cultural/personal significance of that" and it would just waste space.
I just recalled your comment about wearing a nighty somewhere... And fair enough, sounds like someone not smart enough to come up with anything more creative/witty than calling someone a f*g...
oh, THAT. That was a bet.
Heh, it was totally worth it, too. I didn't know there were Doctor Who comics but boy am I glad I had the cash from that bet to get them.
Those aren't exactly things to be brought up as defence points But as for my experiences, I've not been subjected to ridicule for what I wear in public, because when I leave the house, I wear conventional clothing :-D I was simply pointing out that if people dress in unconventional ways, while that is quite within their rights, they really shouldn't express surprise if they are then mocked by others... We have people around here who will shout "Bwaaargh" or something equally inane out of a car window while passing a pedestrian just to get some kind of reaction... (My reaction is to regret not having 2nd Amendment rights, and not having a Walther P99 on my hip, because I'm a pretty good shot, and people like that are just contaminating the gene pool... ;-) ) My sister in law is the same generation as yourself (a few years older but close enough) and having been around a few of her loser friends as they were growing up, got to see all the stupid fashions, and hear all the angst about people making fun of what they were wearing... Simple answer (in general, not you specifically) is don't want people to make fun, the wear regular clothes (although to be fair, the tool you've described sounds like the kind of wanker who will just be abusive to anyone who's not one of their friends...)
Being stricter than what one is used to, is not harsh... As before, it's about respect for oneself and others... Every school I attended had a set uniform, and although when I was at college, my course (essentially film and media studies, with English, photography and a few other things thrown in) there was no uniform, everyone was expected to dress appropriately (ie Outdoor Clothes) Hair and makeup students had to wear the same kind of 'scrubs' which professional beauticians wear... Try rocking up to work in pyjamas and see how long you stay employed
Then I guess you're coming from a completely different environment, because here...honestly, nobody cares, not even the professors.
Don't diminish, it's not a fic, it's released canon... And either way, they are described as Trabe, and shows that they weren't in any way 'buffered' by the Kazon...
Really? Huh.
I dunno, it's certainly possible that they were trying something on that planet and got caught.
As for the fic thing--dude, it's a hurt-comfort story. Sure it's canon, doesn't make it any less of a trope.
And what would be wrong with that? And who's to say the Kazon were dumb? You? Because a few managed to 'blow themselves up with a replicator'? I would have thought that someone with such an interest in the sciences of the natural world would have a more rational anthropological mind, rather than to judge a group(s) to the extent which you do... What you say about the Kazon, is the same as what some bigots say about the African-Americans gang-bangers who live in near-slum conditions, and view them as nothing more than a bunch of 'dumb ni**ers'. Doesn't matter that they are the disenfranchised remnants of a slave culture which (until recently) has not had the same access to education, housing, career prospects as White people. It's real easy to look down on someone who hasn't had the same opportunities, but that doesn't mean seeing the whole picture or being correct in said judgement. The Kazon were created specifically as a Bloods and Crips analogue, and so everything which drives and shapes gang culture applies to them.
Which is part of why I loathe the Kazon so much, because they're not just uneducated, but they're stupid and misogynistic as well. The Voyager writers created them as street-gang analogues...and forgot that street gangs are actually extremely canny and relatively gender-egalitarian, mostly because it's a meritocracy by necessity.
It's insulting that they would compare those semi-sentient thugs that could barely perform a pincer maneuver with help to street gangs, who create their own code languages to avoid police surveillance and understand when to cut their losses.
To use a fic-example... (something I usually try and refrain from) If you were to send William Abel Kane (the current generation) into mid-90s South-Central LA from his snooty Boston upbringing and Harvard schooling, he's going to get turned over and lucky to walk out alive. If Lamar Wilkins gets sent up north to 'high society', he's going to look like a pig-ignorant thug... Yet each man is the 'king of his own jungle'. In fact, this gives me an idea for a novel...
But back on point... I'd say the Kazon are at about the same social/technological level as Humanity at the point of First Contact with the Vulcans, and to judge them by comparison to the Federation, is to not only do them a disservice, but to willfully ignore what they actually are, and the forces which made them that way...
I have to disagree. Humans at the time of First Contact would not have needed outside assistance to perform a pincer maneuver.
Supported by what canon examples of senior Vulcans (or Romulans) suffering long-term mental traumas such as PTSD?
Not a senior, but we do have Chu'lak, driven insane by Dominion War-induced PTSD. (DS9: "Field of Fire")
I don't think the long lifespan really enters into it, personally.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Worffan, given the background you describe, you really don't have the life experience necessary to understand any world other than the one you grew up in. This is not to be condescending, but logical - perhaps you should pay attention to the statements of those who have lived different lives. A wider perspective is a good thing. Yours appears to be narrowly focused into a view considered at best unrealistic by the rest of the world. (Assuming you go into paleontology or ornithology as a career, you might be amazed how few universities are willing to extend tenure to someone who shows up in pajamas, for instance. And there is no place on this planet other than where you are that considers it "polite", or even necessary, to ask someone what pronouns they prefer before talking to them. To many of us, in fact, that's a downright ludicrous level of political correctness.)
Worffan, given the background you describe, you really don't have the life experience necessary to understand any world other than the one you grew up in.
The same could be said of you. Or MDK. Or anyone else in the world.
See, I'm not an idiot. I've read a LOT (mostly history and science, sure, but history's kind of relevant here) and I read the NY Times and the Guardian every day to keep up on world affairs.
I may not know anything about the subtleties of social interaction beyond the most basic rules, and I may be extremely cautious for fear of hurting people, but I'm not a complete moron. I wouldn't be in this school if I was.
This is not to be condescending, but logical - perhaps you should pay attention to the statements of those who have lived different lives. A wider perspective is a good thing. Yours appears to be narrowly focused into a view considered at best unrealistic by the rest of the world.
Then frankly, the rest of the world bites.
If the world's all about fitting people into 2 or 3 cookie-cutter boxes and judging them based on that...then frankly, I'm fine with being unrealistic.
But honestly, it doesn't seem that strange to me. Would you refer to a man as "she", for example? To said person's face? It just seems like common decency to make sure you know what gender or lack thereof someone is before using gendered pronouns*.
*Which is why I prefer the genderless "xe/xir" for regular use.
(Assuming you go into paleontology or ornithology as a career, you might be amazed how few universities are willing to extend tenure to someone who shows up in pajamas, for instance. And there is no place on this planet other than where you are that considers it "polite", or even necessary, to ask someone what pronouns they prefer before talking to them. To many of us, in fact, that's a downright ludicrous level of political correctness.)
First, I know that I'm expected to show up to job interviews in a suit and tie. That doesn't mean I have to, say, wear that into the field; in fact, I'd be insane to do so.
Field clothes, in order of importance, are:
Broad-brimmed floppy hat
Binoculars
Cargo pants--long but light, with drawstrings at the bottom, pale colored for easy tick sighting
Boots, non-thermal lined but comfortable.
Good, light socks.
Bug spray. Lots of bug spray.
Sunscreen
A shirt, generally short-sleeved
Bug spray.
That's a range that goes from "All I have are cargo pants and snarky shirts so I just threw the ones that smelled the least awful on this morning" to "Pure, unstained white T-shirt and flawless, just-washed pants".
Point is, field clothes look ridiculous, and everyone knows it. It's simply basic decency not to laugh. And I just extend that to everything.
Reading is good. Reading is a great start. It begins to open the mind.
Now meet more people. People who aren't home-schooled, and who don't go to your apparently rather unusual institute of higher education. (The University of Washington may have a loose dress code, but it still has a dress code...) And when they want to talk to you about their lives, here's the part that's hardest for most people - listen. Don't be thinking about what you're going to reply, just take in what's being said. Most folks never do master that part; instead, they're internally comparing the other person's life to their own, or thinking about what they want to say in return, or sometimes just letting their minds wander, and it's hard to learn anything about people that way.
And it's interesting you ask that question about use of pronouns. There is at least one person of my acquaintance who is (so far) biologically male, but I still refer to her as female, because that's how she presents herself. (She's an old Army buddy of my roommate's; she didn't start transferring her gender until after she got out, of course. She's on hormone therapy right now, but plans on having reassignment surgery in a year or two. She does dress in a sterotypically feminine style; I first met her at my niece's nail salon.) But no, I didn't ask her which pronoun she prefers - she was polite, and told us. (If you're going to be at variance with the standard, the onus is on you to tell others, not on them to guess. English has no neuter case to refer to living beings, as "it" implies something sub-human or not living. "Xe" is a horrible neologism, and I will have nothing to do with it, any more than I will with words like "shiznit".)
Well, first off all of the senior Vulcanoids we saw were Ambassadors and military leaders, where insanity would be an even bigger problem than normal...but I will note that Sarek was suffering from some pretty severe mental illness in TNG.
He was also suffering from a chronic illness, where mental deterioration occurred...
Horses evolved in North America, but went extinct in the region fairly early on in the Ice Ages. Some hippidiform horses survived a little longer in South America, but from at least the last Ice Age onwards they were gone from the hemisphere. Notably, they were gone for longer than the rest of the Ice Age megafauna--even mammoths survived after the last glacial retreat in the form of the grazing-specialist Jefferson's Mammoth (a descendant of the Ice Age Columbian mammoth), before Human predation wiped them out.
I've had a quick look at Cahokia, and couldn't see anything pertaining to horses (but it's getting late here, and I'll research more thoroughly at a later date...)
So there were no horses in North America until they were (re)introduced by Europeans?
Again, I'm not really trying to make a point here, I'm just repeating something I'd heard...
Since I do care about Native American history, I AM offended (and it's not a choice, it's an instinctive reaction) to the very idea.
No, it's not an instinctive reaction, because it is not one which all people would automatically share. The only instinctive fears a Human is born with, are falling, and loud noises. Everything else, is conditioned/developed. It is a trained reaction due to it being a subject you have chosen to care about, and so as Fry pointed out about 'being offended', 'so f*cking what?' Being offended does not obligate others to act differently.
Saying that aliens were involved insinuates that the Nazca culture lacked the mathematical tools to create the sculptures...which is BS, because Cahokia clearly did and nobody accuses THEM of having been taught by magic space white men.
Wasn't my theory, just one I was using to illustrate the point that that is not the first time that it has been suggested that aliens have had an impact on an ancient culture in Central or South America. Regardless of what you feel that insinuates about the Nazca culture, the question they raise for me, is why would they have bothered going to the trouble of creating something which can only be appreciated when viewed from altitude? 'For the lols' doesn't really seem adequate in such a situation. Also, given your rejection of 'magic space white men', I consider it ironic that one of the series is identified on the provided link as 'the astronaut'
...yeah, that's the same thing. If you want to know what people think, you're tacitly expecting people to point out flaws in your writing so that you can fix them and/or not make the same mistakes again.
No it isn't. I would expect a solicited general opinion to note highlights as well as addressing flaws. 'Picking holes' and 'constructive criticism' are not the same thing. And as before, just because I ask someone what they think of something, that does not mean that I intend to actually implement anything, it just means I've asked what they thought, because it's good to get views other than one's own.
I officially retract that recommendation, since it's already been covered. However, I do question the usefulness of group therapy in her case.
Condescension aside, yes, we do try and take things into consideration when writing to remain as internally consistent as possible... The point I was making, is that you started commenting and objecting about something (nanites) which had not only not been mentioned, but where the actual specifics (holography) had been, and then suggested one on one therapy, where it could already be inferred that she was attending on on one therapy
And the usefulness of group therapy, is that Kian is massively isolated from her home, in an environment where she would not be looked upon favourably by the general population (Military veterans are notoriously scorned by their societies...) Group therapy would allow her to feel less isolated, by being amongst others who not only share her experiences and issues, but can help her to overcome them...
I'm not outraged about those cases because they were both cases of ignorance...just like D'trel would be the one in the wrong if someone who didn't know who she is started praising the Tal'Shiar and got her sword in his lungs, it's not scream-inducingly bad if you don't know someone's culture or personal history.
I did consider mentioning both cases, but I anticipated that you'd say something like "yeah, that's just because character X doesn't realize the cultural/personal significance of that" and it would just waste space.
Fair enough, and it wouldn't've been a case of saying anything, just a matter of thought when writing as to what was reasonable under the circumstances in terms of the behaviours and reactions of those involved... Kian was trying to demonstrate the subtlety of movement of her armour with a gesture which, in any other species, would be considered harmlessly playful (The fact that Pentaxians in mourning shave their heads, is a visible indication that they are not receptive to such gestures) and Ashiyana was simply being friendly, and then giving comfort to someone in desperate need of it...
I know a person who wears a glorified blanket everywhere. They is definitely among the quirkier people on campus, but nobody cares what they wears...
:eek: Quite frankly, I find that shocking, and an inexcusable enabling of bizarre eccentricities which will not be tolerated in the outside world... Turning up to class wearing a blanket here in the UK, and I would have thought anywhere else in the world, would likely result in said person being asked some serious psychological questions...
Heh, it was totally worth it, too. I didn't know there were Doctor Who comics but boy am I glad I had the cash from that bet to get them.
Fair enough, I just wondered if you'd been wearing it at the time you were yelled at. While it wouldn't've excused the comments, it might've explained it, but from what you've said, as mentioned the person just sounds like a tool who's abusive to others... Glad you found a use for the $$s :cool:
Then I guess you're coming from a completely different environment, because here...honestly, nobody cares, not even the professors.
As above, I find it disturbing. It is certainly not the kind of behaviour I would expect any facility of higher learning to allow or permit to continue...
I dunno, it's certainly possible that they were trying something on that planet and got caught.
Yup, Memory Alpha specifically identifies them as Trabe. And maybe, but it's irrelevant what they were doing, as the point is, they were clearly doing 'something away from their society' to wind up in an alien prison, not keeping to themselves or using Kazon as some kind of unwitting buffer...
As for the fic thing--dude, it's a hurt-comfort story. Sure it's canon, doesn't make it any less of a trope.
Just because it fits the criteria of a trope, that doesn't make it any less valid a story, and again, as a released episode, it is most certainly not 'a fic'... Tropes aren't the be all end all of literary analysis...
Which is part of why I loathe the Kazon so much, because they're not just uneducated, but they're stupid and misogynistic as well. The Voyager writers created them as street-gang analogues...and forgot that street gangs are actually extremely canny and relatively gender-egalitarian, mostly because it's a meritocracy by necessity.
It's insulting that they would compare those semi-sentient thugs that could barely perform a pincer maneuver with help to street gangs, who create their own code languages to avoid police surveillance and understand when to cut their losses.
They weren't comparing them to gangs, the gangs were the inspiration for the concept. Also, you're ignoring the fact that the Kazon were written as the villains. The deck was constantly stacked against them, so they could never really be shown in a more dimensional manner...
Again. Fiction not factual writing... It might not be what you enjoy, but that doesn't mean no one else can/does...
I think that we're completely in disagreement here...and I don't know how to resolve the dispute, so I'm just going to leave it here by saying that if a writer, ESPECIALLY a fiction writer, has to resort to something OBVIOUSLY scientifically incorrect without using a built-in aspect of the fictional universe to justify it, that's lazy writing.
I've had a quick look at Cahokia, and couldn't see anything pertaining to horses (but it's getting late here, and I'll research more thoroughly at a later date...)
Horses? I was referring to the mound-building and advanced society.
So there were no horses in North America until they were (re)introduced by Europeans?
Again, I'm not really trying to make a point here, I'm just repeating something I'd heard...
Correct. And it was a different species, domestic horses as opposed to American horses.
Interestingly, the ecosystem has evolved without horses for just long enough that they may qualify as an invasive species in the Great Plains. They certainly do without natural predators, which is why I get angry whenever I see protesters trying to stop the government from rounding up feral horses to keep the population under control.
No, it's not an instinctive reaction, because it is not one which all people would automatically share. The only instinctive fears a Human is born with, are falling, and loud noises. Everything else, is conditioned/developed. It is a trained reaction due to it being a subject you have chosen to care about, and so as Fry pointed out about 'being offended', 'so f*cking what?' Being offended does not obligate others to act differently.
Um...I can't control the fact that I was unable to speak from shock after seeing the epic racism of "Tattoo". Trust me. If I had been able to speak I would've been cursing. A lot.
Wasn't my theory, just one I was using to illustrate the point that that is not the first time that it has been suggested that aliens have had an impact on an ancient culture in Central or South America. Regardless of what you feel that insinuates about the Nazca culture, the question they raise for me, is why would they have bothered going to the trouble of creating something which can only be appreciated when viewed from altitude? 'For the lols' doesn't really seem adequate in such a situation. Also, given your rejection of 'magic space white men', I consider it ironic that one of the series is identified on the provided link as 'the astronaut'
Maybe these people believed that their deity or deities looked down on them from above, and built those structures as a form of temple? The Cahokian culture did the same, and several South American cultures worshiped an anthropomorphic sun god.
It's no less reasonable than a bunch of Sumerians deciding that they worship a magic sky daddy and setting out for Palestine.
No it isn't. I would expect a solicited general opinion to note highlights as well as addressing flaws. 'Picking holes' and 'constructive criticism' are not the same thing. And as before, just because I ask someone what they think of something, that does not mean that I intend to actually implement anything, it just means I've asked what they thought, because it's good to get views other than one's own.
That's...that's not how I've been taught to critique and take critique.
When I write, I know it's not perfect. Hell, I don't even give most of my stuff titles because I think it'd be too arrogant.
Ergo, it'd be arrogant and stupid of me to not take criticism.
Condescension aside, yes, we do try and take things into consideration when writing to remain as internally consistent as possible... The point I was making, is that you started commenting and objecting about something (nanites) which had not only not been mentioned, but where the actual specifics (holography) had been, and then suggested one on one therapy, where it could already be inferred that she was attending on on one therapy.
And the usefulness of group therapy, is that Kian is massively isolated from her home, in an environment where she would not be looked upon favourably by the general population (Military veterans are notoriously scorned by their societies...) Group therapy would allow her to feel less isolated, by being amongst others who not only share her experiences and issues, but can help her to overcome them...
Nanites or holography, it's one glitch and he's SCREWED.
As for Kian...ok, this may be my background, but I've always been taught to be respectful to military vets and tread gently around their issues. Being there for them is best, apparently, just like for people with depression. I get really disgusted when people bad-mouth such people, it's not the soldiers' fault that Bush threw us into an illegal war. That's Bush and Cheney's fault.
Dunn how effective that group therapy would be compared to just having friends, though...at the risk of sounding arrogant, what she needs most is someone like me, who's instinctively put friends first from a young age (to the point that my parents kept telling me to be more selfish because people kept walking over me--my brother has it even worse). She needs a platonic friend or two about her age who act as a support network.
Sort of like how Omek'ti'kallan is a "keeper" for D'trel.
:eek: Quite frankly, I find that shocking, and an inexcusable enabling of bizarre eccentricities which will not be tolerated in the outside world... Turning up to class wearing a blanket here in the UK, and I would have thought anywhere else in the world, would likely result in said person being asked some serious psychological questions...
Well, here it's just "do the work and have fun with it" (we like to enjoy our learning), and the professors really don't care what you dress like because most of them only dress up for board meetings and such anyway.
And then there's the annual valentine's day ninja outing, Ninjagrams, where I and a bunch of other people dress up as ninjas with this cool dude called Raymond and deliver valentines in class. It's fun, the professors are all in on it (Williamson's Tolkein-Pullman class is always a 10-minute reenactment of a LOTR scene, this year it was Weathertop, I took down Raymond and was about to "kill" him when Williamson used mangled Latin to stun me, it was awesome), the Organic Chemistry professor methylates the DNA of a bunch of ninjas, and we raise a metric butt ton of money for charity doing it.
We're a pretty laid-back school. Doesn't change the fact that our graduates can effectively pick their graduate school.
Fair enough, I just wondered if you'd been wearing it at the time you were yelled at. While it wouldn't've excused the comments, it might've explained it, but from what you've said, as mentioned the person just sounds like a tool who's abusive to others... Glad you found a use for the $$s :cool:
Nah, that was a different time...and yeah, there's comics for 10, 11 (bleah), and even 12.
As above, I find it disturbing. It is certainly not the kind of behaviour I would expect any facility of higher learning to allow or permit to continue...
I have seen the Kazon. I'll repeat the question: based upon what evidence?
This is a species that needed outside assistance to perform a pincer maneuver.
Let me quantify that: Dabulamanzi kaMpande could do an unassisted pincer maneuver. A man who got beaten by a force 1/20th of his own, with the enemy low on ammo, tired, injured, and trapped in a kill box, could manage a pincer maneuver. The most legendary incompetent in Zulu military history could manage a pincer maneuver.
The pincer maneuver is so basic that you don't even need to be sentient to manage it. Pack-hunting animals do it all the time.
Needing assistance to perform a pincer maneuver is the ultimate mark of idiocy.
Yup, Memory Alpha specifically identifies them as Trabe. And maybe, but it's irrelevant what they were doing, as the point is, they were clearly doing 'something away from their society' to wind up in an alien prison, not keeping to themselves or using Kazon as some kind of unwitting buffer...
If you get caught trying to sabotage an alien government, you're going to get caught and thrown in prison, not the space pirate thugs you use as open cover.
Just because it fits the criteria of a trope, that doesn't make it any less valid a story, and again, as a released episode, it is most certainly not 'a fic'... Tropes aren't the be all end all of literary analysis...
True, and I could've chosen better words, but I was obviously being snarky and let's face it, it fits ever criterion for hurt-comfort.
Which is humorous because the official Trek magazine's fanfic contest banned hurt-comfort at the time.
They weren't comparing them to gangs, the gangs were the inspiration for the concept. Also, you're ignoring the fact that the Kazon were written as the villains. The deck was constantly stacked against them, so they could never really be shown in a more dimensional manner...
Which is kind of the same thing...and your second point, I'm calling BS, just look at the Cardassians (other than Garak). Villains, at least until late DS9, but still varied and multidimensional.
Look at the Ferengi, the Klingons...we've seen people of all stripes from those species.
Have we ever seen a Kazon that was not a violent, unintelligent thug with terrible hair?
No, just to overcome bigotry, racism, many diseases, develop (or acquire) new technology to enable colonisation etc...
Perhaps, but we still had R&D, and racism and sexism don't seem to have been THAT big of a problem at least on the national level given Lily (educated, intelligent, respected black woman), and we were capable of tactics that even nonsentients are capable of but the Kazon aren't.
Group therapy is more effective for military veterans, Worffan, because, to borrow a phrase, they've "seen the elephant". I can empathize all day long with Jason - but ultimately, I wasn't in Iraq, and the only war I've fought (three times a year for four years!) was theoretical, so my view only goes so far with him. When he talks to the other Iraq vets in his group, though, it helps, because they know what he's been through, and what he's going through now. (Crippling survivor's guilt and flashbacks to combat, mostly, along with a strong aversion to crowds of more than three or four and an inability to drive down the road without checking every roadsign and bush for signs of an ambush.)
Mind you, my own experience left me with a fair understanding of the night-flash version of PTSD (I had a recurring nightmare where some software mistake I'd made led to WWIII - my wife knew one of those was coming on when I started chanting six-character code groups in my sleep, targeting data for Peacekeeper missiles, which would be followed shortly by a scream). Still not the same as the demons that eat him daily, though.
As for the Vulcans helping humans overcome bigotry, in a world with more than one intelligent species there are more kinds of racism than human-on-human; we saw plenty of anti-Vulcan bigotry in ENT, and sexism was still a thing in TOS (because there was no convenient way to completely separate the scriptwriters from their upbringing, the same reason Heinlein comes across as sexist today even though he was quite progressive for his time).
It's not really my place to comment on any of this stuff, I'm not really part of the conversation.
But the way worffan101 describes his school, reminds me of my own life, about a decade ago.
I went to a college that was filled with 800 variants of me. It was an engineering school that focused on two very specific fields, we went to school 5 days a week, 8 hours a day. There wasn't much concern for hygiene, or style and I routinely rode the city bus to class in my pajamas. It was a pretty amazing experience, and my best friends went through it with me.
Once I graduated and entered the 'real world' I was shocked to find that everyone wasn't like me. Not only that, many of them were significantly different than me (not worse than me, or better than me, just different). I found myself having to fend for myself in a world where I didn't really get it (and they didn't get me). I knew my stuff technically, and did my job well, but man, I couldn't cut it socially.
It's easy to say that "you're okay being unrealistic" until you find that the promotion, or the raise or even the good projects are denied to you because you don't mesh with the team. Education and smarts only got me so far, and then I was lost.
Everything changed about a year after I graduated. I was working in a warehouse (to pay the bills) while getting job interviews, and not getting any call backs. I was living with some friends (a couple of those 800 variants) close to the local university. A group of university students moved in next door. 4 girls to be exact. The day they moved in, a neighbourhood dog got loose and attacked me. I wasn't hurt, but man, it was a hell of an icebreaker.
They were nothing like me. They were the 'cheerleader' and 'football player' stereotypes. I didn't hang out with them in highschool, and no one was like that in my college. Over the next four years, I got to know them (and their boyfriends). I hung out with them all the time. I watched my first superbowl with them (still don't get it), went clubbing, went clothes shopping, and there were a few days were I was out drinking until it was time to go to work. It was all that crazy university stuff you see in the movies, and I got a brief glimpse into it.
This wasn't 'my corruption' as some of my friends thought... It was a research project. They represented the managers, accountants, lawyers, marketing guys and hr reps I had to deal with at work. I watched them, studied them, and most importantly, I tried really hard not to judge them based on my own opinions. (I couldn't compare my own experiences to some of the stuff they went through.) Like jonsills recommended, I did my best to listen to them, to understand where they came from, and where they were going.
Somewhere in there, it got easier for me to function in the world. I got a job at an engineering firm as part of the R&D team and suddenly I was out of the warehouse and my career started.
Like it or not, the world is full of 'normies' and you need to play by their rules. You can't change that from outside the pack. I'm not saying to compromise who you are, but expand who you are to understand how to work within the system.
Anyhoo, felt like sharing my own experience. Again, sorry for butting in.
Jonsills, I bow to your experience on this matter.
proteusrex...I'm not going to be a doctor, a lawyer, or an accountant. I'm going to be an assistant professor somewhere, hopefully working my way up to full professor or maybe even a tenured position. I'll pick at rocks with dental tools while wearing a big floppy hat and talk to college students about dinosaurs for a few decades, and then I'll retire on social security but still do research and stuff because I love paleontology.
If my school's any judge, you don't need to wear a suit more than once or twice a year to be a professor.
I'm not going to be a doctor, a lawyer, or an accountant.
Neither am I, all I'm saying is that, more often than not, these are the folks that control the purse-strings. They choose which projects I work on, and which project's my bosses team gets funding for. Chances are they'll hold the key to your grant money (maybe be on the board that hires you), and you'll need to work with them to get what you want. Their opinion of you will mean as much (if not more) than how good you are at doing your job.
I'm going to be an assistant professor somewhere, hopefully working my way up to full professor or maybe even a tenured position. I'll pick at rocks with dental tools while wearing a big floppy hat and talk to college students about dinosaurs for a few decades, and then I'll retire on social security but still do research and stuff because I love paleontology.
I really hope that's how it works out for you. I worked in a warehouse for 2 years so I could afford to look for a job in my field, and when I did, I spent 3 more years working at the bottom to get close to the position I actually wanted. It was miserable. Now I am where I am, and am considering my next step, which is no longer in line with my old future plans (and I'm still 30+ years from retiring). Keep your plans as flexible as possible. I know people who are still trying to get a teaching position after years of trying, and I know others who are doing something completely different now. I hope to find out that you're one of the few who gets exactly what you want right away, but those folks are few and far between.
If my school's any judge, you don't need to wear a suit more than once or twice a year to be a professor.
Is that to get to be a professor? or once you become a professor? Regardless, hopefully your school is a good example. I thought the same of my school, and found myself horribly mistaken when I came out of it.
Anyhoo, I'll shut up soon. Unsolicited advice is the worst. :P
You're a smart person and I admire your knowledge and passion, but think of how much smarter your future self is going to be. You've only experienced/read/absorbed a fraction of the life experiences and new data you're going to encounter on your way to retiring. Keep an open mind as best you can. Everything can be a learning experience, and like it or not, all the opinions you have now will be refined, honed and possibly even changed completely.
Ok, I'll shut up now. I'm only butting in here because I feel like I was very similar to you when I was in school. It took me a long time to open my head enough to grow and I feel like it slowed me down professionally and personally.
Extreme emotions tend to exacerbate mental illness, especially depression, and make stress harder to handle.
And which we are already in agreement, that those extreme emotions are controlled, albeit by mental discipline in Vulcans, or social contracts in Romulans. Also, it has to be noted that your assertion that extreme emotions exacerbate mental illness, is very Humancentric. And again, no canonical statements about Vulcans being continually traumatised by the events of their pasts. Even the episode which lead to the Doctor making the observation about the Vulcan brain lobotomising itself, was because Tuvok had been infected with a virus which survived by mimicking a traumatic memory which its host would repress, so would typically be an unknown but constant presence, but which the Vulcan brain reacted more radically to...
Real-world psychology plus canonical statements about Vulcans equals conclusion.
Equals flawed conclusion.
You can't apply Human psychological norms or responses to non-Humans, as it won't necessarily translate. And again, there are no canonical statements about Vulcans of advanced age typically suffering from the kind of issues you describe, only exceptions, which are highlighted as specific illnesses...
I think that we're completely in disagreement here...and I don't know how to resolve the dispute, so I'm just going to leave it here by saying that if a writer, ESPECIALLY a fiction writer, has to resort to something OBVIOUSLY scientifically incorrect without using a built-in aspect of the fictional universe to justify it, that's lazy writing.
I'm happy to agree to disagree, as long as you are happy to accept that your opinion on the subject, is not the baseline by which the quality of fiction is rated.
Correct. And it was a different species, domestic horses as opposed to American horses.
So what I was told, that at the point of contact between Native Americans and Europeans, the Native Americans were living at a Stone Age level, without even the skill of equestrianism, is correct?
Um...I can't control the fact that I was unable to speak from shock after seeing the epic racism of "Tattoo". Trust me. If I had been able to speak I would've been cursing. A lot.
I'm sure you could learn... Most, if not all, behaviours can be modified, and I've heard it only takes a month to break or develop a habit. To react solely on instinct, is the behaviour of an animal. What you are describing, is a conditioned response based on something you have, consciously or otherwise, taken a stance on, not an instinct necessarily shared by all people. You might claim that you don't care about not 'being normal', but in a few years once you're out in the real world, I suspect your opinion will change...
Maybe these people believed that their deity or deities looked down on them from above, and built those structures as a form of temple? The Cahokian culture did the same, and several South American cultures worshiped an anthropomorphic sun god.
It's no less reasonable than a bunch of Sumerians deciding that they worship a magic sky daddy and setting out for Palestine.
I wonder what made these cultures all look 'to the sky'... Couldn't possibly be because that's where aliens come from...
That's...that's not how I've been taught to critique and take critique.
Critique is not just focussing on what you consider bad points, but also pointing to positive aspects as well. Equally, as was pointed out on Shevet's now-closed thread, continuing to 'give critique' in such a manner, after the author has explained their reasons for a character (who was enough to make me not want to read any more of the story) is simply rude, and no longer 'constructive criticism'...
Nanites or holography, it's one glitch and he's SCREWED.
But it didn't, and doesn't glitch. Ever. As authors, we can say that Lonnie has a perfect system, and that's all there is too it. Your opinion on if it could or should glitch, is inconsequential to that... It's a bit like if someone was to say "Starships... That's a lot of anti-matter to be hauling around, all it would take is for their containment system to breach and they're toast..." Admiral Quinn's not going to suddenly go: "Holy dogsh*t! We've got to stop using starships!!! Get everyone back before they get blown up!!!" By all means make an observation, but once it's addressed, there's no need to further assert the opinion...
As for Kian...ok, this may be my background, but I've always been taught to be respectful to military vets and tread gently around their issues. Being there for them is best, apparently, just like for people with depression. I get really disgusted when people bad-mouth such people, it's not the soldiers' fault that Bush threw us into an illegal war. That's Bush and Cheney's fault.
There's (and always has been) a lot of anti-war sentiment which personnel wind up on the receiving end of...
Dunn how effective that group therapy would be compared to just having friends, though...at the risk of sounding arrogant, what she needs most is someone like me, who's instinctively put friends first from a young age (to the point that my parents kept telling me to be more selfish because people kept walking over me--my brother has it even worse). She needs a platonic friend or two about her age who act as a support network.
As jonsills pointed out, group therapy provides a support network of people who actually share, and can relate to, the issues a veteran is experiencing. It is arrogant, but only in a psychological sense that it would actually be misguided, even if well-intentioned, as someone like yourself would simply be an enabler, rather than someone who could actually give constructive advice for coping. Most people of Kian's age have no shared frame of reference to her experiences, so they simply wouldn't understand what she has been through, nullifying their advice. The only people her own age who can relate (Cheron and Lees excluded) are on Moab III, and they would equally be a toxic influence, because they would not see the issue in their situation. I have a friend who is former US military, who has many of the same issues as D'trel:
- A victim of sexual assault in her late teens
- The father of her child was murdered (shot in the head by gang-bangers while he sat in a car wash)
- She was sexually assaulted by superior officers whilst in service
- PTSD from operational deployments
Additionally, She's also been raising a child with behavioural issues as a lone parent. Now, she's been in a relationship with a dude for about a year now. Seems a nice enough guy, and clearly treats her like a princess, doesn't smack her around, put her down or hit on her friends etc, but all of the issues in their relationship (which is one blow up away from failing) are because he simply does not understand that she is not just some 'single-mom fixer-upper', but a veteran with serious psychological issues which he, as a civilian, simply cannot relate to enough to actually provide the support which a veterans group can... Him 'being nice' to her, simply is not enough to help her cope, and no matter how well-intentioned or absolute his support, it is simply inadequate to her needs because he lacks the shared experiences to truly relate to them...
Well, here it's just "do the work and have fun with it" (we like to enjoy our learning), and the professors really don't care what you dress like because most of them only dress up for board meetings and such anyway.
Obviously this is not the school you go to, but a quick google search showed Hampton University's thoughts about dress code...
The Dress Code is based on the theory that learning to use socially acceptable manners and selecting attire appropriate to specific occasions and activities are critical factors in the total educational process. Understanding and employing these behaviors not only improves the quality of one's life, but also contributes to optimum morale, as well as embellishes the overall campus image. They also play a major role in instilling a sense of integrity and an appreciation for values and ethics.
The continuous demonstration of appropriate manners and dress insures that Hampton University students meet the very minimum standards of quality achievement in the social, physical, moral and educational aspects of their lives - essential areas of development necessary for propelling students toward successful careers.
Students will be denied admission to various functions if their manner of dress is inappropriate. On this premise, students at Hampton University are expected to dress neatly at all times. The following are examples of appropriate dress for various occasions:
Classroom, Cafeteria, Student Center and University offices - neat, modest, casual or dressy attire.
Formal programs in Ogden Hall, the Convocation Center, the Little Theater and the Memorial Chapel - business or dressy attire.
Interviews - business attire.
Social/Recreational activities, Residence hall lounges (during visitation hours) - modest, casual or dressy attire.
Balls, Galas, and Cabarets - formal, semi-formal and dressy respectively. Examples of Inappropriate Dress and/or Appearance
Do-rags, stocking caps, skullcaps and bandanas (prohibited at all times on the campus of Hampton University except in the privacy of the student's living quarters).
Head coverings and hoods for men in any building.
Baseball caps and hoods for women in any building. This policy item does not apply to headgear considered as a part of religious or cultural dress.
Bare feet.
Shorts that reveal buttocks.
Shorts, all types of jeans at programs dictating professional or formal attire, such as Musical Arts, Fall Convocation, Founder's Day, and Commencement.
Clothing with derogatory, offensive and/or lewd messages either in words or pictures.
Men's undershirts of any color worn outside of the private living quarters of the residence halls.
Sports jerseys without a conventional tee-shirt underneath.
Men and Womens pants that show underwear. Dress Code: Procedures for Cultural or Religious Head Coverings
Students seeking approval to wear headgear as an expression of religious or cultural dress may make a written request for a review through the Office of the Chaplain.
The Chaplain will forward a recommendation to the Vice President for Student Affairs for final approval.
Students that are approved will then have their new ID card picture taken by University Police with the headgear being worn.
All administrative, faculty and support staff members will be expected to monitor student behavior applicable to this dress code and report any such disregard or violations to the Offices of the Dean of Men, or Dean of Women for the attention of the Vice President for Student Affairs.
This is a species that needed outside assistance to perform a pincer maneuver.
Let me quantify that: Dabulamanzi kaMpande could do an unassisted pincer maneuver. A man who got beaten by a force 1/20th of his own, with the enemy low on ammo, tired, injured, and trapped in a kill box, could manage a pincer maneuver. The most legendary incompetent in Zulu military history could manage a pincer maneuver.
The pincer maneuver is so basic that you don't even need to be sentient to manage it. Pack-hunting animals do it all the time.
Needing assistance to perform a pincer maneuver is the ultimate mark of idiocy.
In the real world, yes. InVerse, tactics only need to be as complex or as simple, as allow a hero or villain to succeed... The Kazon can only ever be as smart as the original writers made them. As I said above, I could write about other Kazon sects who were much smarter and more dangerous than those seen, then and create an interesting story, but what would be the point? Given your treatment of Pex, MasterVerse Economics and Lonnie's tactics, I can already predict that all you'd do is TRIBBLE all over it, stating after each appearance of Maj Qallum, that the Kazon were only ever mindless thugs, so they can't be rofl-stomping Alpha Quadrant ships, because that's all Kazon are... And as Shevet did, I would eventually just think "What's the point?" and stop posting additional updates... I already think that before even beginning the project, so have no intention of undertaking it... That's how much of a toxic impact such behaviour has...
Sure. Just as I like to write old-school Cardies as My Country, Right or Wrong.
My point is, writer's license allows the writer to craft something as they see fit, and they should not then have to continually defend that authorial choice simply because one very vocal reader takes issue with it and insists upon repeating the 'critique' each time a chapter is posted which features the issue...
If you get caught trying to sabotage an alien government, you're going to get caught and thrown in prison, not the space pirate thugs you use as open cover.
What they were or may have been doing is speculative and irrelevant. The point is, they were caught and thrown in prison, which would not have happened if they had been using Kazon thugs as an open cover... Their presence in the prison completely disproves your hypothesis that the Trabe were some kind of decadent puppet-masters...
True, and I could've chosen better words, but I was obviously being snarky and let's face it, it fits ever criterion for hurt-comfort.
Which is humorous because the official Trek magazine's fanfic contest banned hurt-comfort at the time.
I didn't think it was obvious if you were being snarky or literal, and given your frequent habit of classifying characters/plots by what trope you feel they fit, I thought you were being literal, and simply trying to diminish the validity of the episode...
And I'm not surprised, as I'm sure the editors received a lot of slash entries which probably made them want to bleach their eyes
Which is kind of the same thing...and your second point, I'm calling BS, just look at the Cardassians (other than Garak). Villains, at least until late DS9, but still varied and multidimensional.
Look at the Ferengi, the Klingons...we've seen people of all stripes from those species.
Both of whom, had considerably more screen-time and development than the Kazon, and were integral to plots beyond simply being 'easy clichese for heros to overcome'...
Have we ever seen a Kazon that was not a violent, unintelligent thug with terrible hair?
Well, we never actually saw Jal Sankur, but given he united his people against the Trabe, he would certainly fit the description (although the hair comment again reveals your racist -- or at the very least, elitist -- attitude toward the Kazon...)
Had a story required there to be an intellectual Kazon, I'm sure there would have been one...
When you view the Kazon for what they were -- the disenfranchised youth of self-freed slaves who now lacked the capacity to better themselves without outside assistance -- their behaviours (as much as plot was willing to allow) made sense...
Perhaps, but we still had R&D, and racism and sexism don't seem to have been THAT big of a problem at least on the national level given Lily (educated, intelligent, respected black woman), and we were capable of tactics that even nonsentients are capable of but the Kazon aren't.
Respected by whom? A colleague who was aware of her qualifications, and someone from the future who was also aware of not only her qualifications, but who also viewed her as a Historical Figure, so had her on the pedestal of regard... That does not necessarily translate to the rest of the nation... To *shudder* quote Kanye West...
Man I promise, I'm so self conscious
That's why you always see me with at least one of my watches
Rollies and Pasha's done drove me crazy
I can't even pronounce nothing, pass that versace!
Then I spent 400 bucks on this
Just to be like ni**a you ain't up on this!
And I can't even go to the grocery store
Without some ones thats clean and a shirt with a team
It seems we living the american dream
But the people highest up got the lowest self esteem
The prettiest people do the ugliest things
For the road to riches and diamond rings
We shine because they hate us, floss cause they degrade us
We trying to buy back our 40 acres
And for that paper, look how low we a'stoop
Even if you in a Benz, you still a ni**er in a coop/coupe
Jonsills, I bow to your experience on this matter.
proteusrex...I'm not going to be a doctor, a lawyer, or an accountant. I'm going to be an assistant professor somewhere, hopefully working my way up to full professor or maybe even a tenured position. I'll pick at rocks with dental tools while wearing a big floppy hat and talk to college students about dinosaurs for a few decades, and then I'll retire on social security but still do research and stuff because I love paleontology.
If my school's any judge, you don't need to wear a suit more than once or twice a year to be a professor.
I'm not going to TRIBBLE on your aspirations, but I will offer this piece of advice: Life seldom turns out the way we expect...
Touching on something I actually have some knowledge about.
So what I was told, that at the point of contact between Native Americans and Europeans, the Native Americans were living at a Stone Age level, without even the skill of equestrianism, is correct?
Essentially.
As was pointed out upthread, equines evolved in North America and then migrated to the rest of the world, but died in the Americas during the Ice Age (or rather during the depths of the Ice Age; technically we're still in the Ice Age, but that's a different barrel of oats). I don't know off the top of my head if humans had any contact with American equines prior to their extinction, but I do know that none were ever domesticated. Pre-Colombian Americans (I dislike the term "native" Americans) did not have widespread beasts of burden; the Inca and other South American civilizations had domesitcated the llama, but it didn't spread north
As for Pre-Colombian Americans living at Stone Age levels...sort of. The Inca and other societies in South America had just begun to smelt some useful metals like bronze when the Spanish arrived, but not in any widespread way. Some manipulation of soft metals like gold was quite prevalent, but prior to large industrialized societies forming gold isn't useful for anything other than looking pretty (compare silver, which actually has some anti-microbial properties). However, in other areas the Pre-Colombian Americans could be quite advanced. There is a good chance, for example, that Tenochtitlan was the largest city in the world prior to Hern
And which we are already in agreement, that those extreme emotions are controlled, albeit by mental discipline in Vulcans, or social contracts in Romulans. Also, it has to be noted that your assertion that extreme emotions exacerbate mental illness, is very Humancentric. And again, no canonical statements about Vulcans being continually traumatised by the events of their pasts. Even the episode which lead to the Doctor making the observation about the Vulcan brain lobotomising itself, was because Tuvok had been infected with a virus which survived by mimicking a traumatic memory which its host would repress, so would typically be an unknown but constant presence, but which the Vulcan brain reacted more radically to...
Equals flawed conclusion.
You can't apply Human psychological norms or responses to non-Humans, as it won't necessarily translate. And again, there are no canonical statements about Vulcans of advanced age typically suffering from the kind of issues you describe, only exceptions, which are highlighted as specific illnesses...
But they're still a sentient species that's close enough to hybridize, which provides strong evidence for similar neurobiology.
So what I was told, that at the point of contact between Native Americans and Europeans, the Native Americans were living at a Stone Age level, without even the skill of equestrianism, is correct?
Yes and no.
Native Americans can't be judged by a European yardstick in part because of the relative lack of large-scale conflict in the early Americas and in part because the available resources were different. The Americas lack easy-to-reach deposits of most metals and such, which provides a major barrier to any people going for European tech...and native cultures developed writing, road systems, calendars, advanced astronomy, complex religions, bureaucracy, and other more administrative/societal advances just as the Europeans did.
Native Americans were just as advanced as Europeans, only in a different way.
I'm sure you could learn... Most, if not all, behaviours can be modified, and I've heard it only takes a month to break or develop a habit. To react solely on instinct, is the behaviour of an animal. What you are describing, is a conditioned response based on something you have, consciously or otherwise, taken a stance on, not an instinct necessarily shared by all people. You might claim that you don't care about not 'being normal', but in a few years once you're out in the real world, I suspect your opinion will change...
Debatable. I'm perfectly comfortable with my identity if not my rather pathetic body.
Equally, as was pointed out on Shevet's now-closed thread, continuing to 'give critique' in such a manner, after the author has explained their reasons for a character (who was enough to make me not want to read any more of the story) is simply rude, and no longer 'constructive criticism'...
But it didn't, and doesn't glitch. Ever. As authors, we can say that Lonnie has a perfect system, and that's all there is too it. Your opinion on if it could or should glitch, is inconsequential to that... It's a bit like if someone was to say "Starships... That's a lot of anti-matter to be hauling around, all it would take is for their containment system to breach and they're toast..." Admiral Quinn's not going to suddenly go: "Holy dogsh*t! We've got to stop using starships!!! Get everyone back before they get blown up!!!" By all means make an observation, but once it's addressed, there's no need to further assert the opinion...
No tech is perfect, and for an author to assert such is foolish...
Perhaps. I still doubt that it's as effective as Lonnie believes, though.
As jonsills pointed out, group therapy provides a support network of people who actually share, and can relate to, the issues a veteran is experiencing. It is arrogant, but only in a psychological sense that it would actually be misguided, even if well-intentioned, as someone like yourself would simply be an enabler, rather than someone who could actually give constructive advice for coping. Most people of Kian's age have no shared frame of reference to her experiences, so they simply wouldn't understand what she has been through, nullifying their advice. The only people her own age who can relate (Cheron and Lees excluded) are on Moab III, and they would equally be a toxic influence, because they would not see the issue in their situation. I have a friend who is former US military, who has many of the same issues as D'trel:
- A victim of sexual assault in her late teens
- The father of her child was murdered (shot in the head by gang-bangers while he sat in a car wash)
- She was sexually assaulted by superior officers whilst in service
- PTSD from operational deployments
Additionally, She's also been raising a child with behavioural issues as a lone parent. Now, she's been in a relationship with a dude for about a year now. Seems a nice enough guy, and clearly treats her like a princess, doesn't smack her around, put her down or hit on her friends etc, but all of the issues in their relationship (which is one blow up away from failing) are because he simply does not understand that she is not just some 'single-mom fixer-upper', but a veteran with serious psychological issues which he, as a civilian, simply cannot relate to enough to actually provide the support which a veterans group can... Him 'being nice' to her, simply is not enough to help her cope, and no matter how well-intentioned or absolute his support, it is simply inadequate to her needs because he lacks the shared experiences to truly relate to them...
Again, I admit that I don't have direct experience here (only with people with clinical depression), so I bow to your and Jonsills' superior experience.
Obviously this is not the school you go to, but a quick google search showed Hampton University's thoughts about dress code...
Well, my friend A., who goes out most nights to wave a fake weapon around in the woods (a sturdy plastic naginata called Diplomacy) and enjoys torpedoing bad roleplays, got accepted to 6 medical schools with only a token amount of effort...and she's NOT the smartest person I know.
I know you see things differently, but we don't judge by appearance here.
In the real world, yes. InVerse, tactics only need to be as complex or as simple, as allow a hero or villain to succeed... The Kazon can only ever be as smart as the original writers made them.
As I said above, I could write about other Kazon sects who were much smarter and more dangerous than those seen, then and create an interesting story, but what would be the point? Given your treatment of Pex, MasterVerse Economics and Lonnie's tactics, I can already predict that all you'd do is TRIBBLE all over it, stating after each appearance of Maj Qallum, that the Kazon were only ever mindless thugs, so they can't be rofl-stomping Alpha Quadrant ships, because that's all Kazon are... And as Shevet did, I would eventually just think "What's the point?" and stop posting additional updates... I already think that before even beginning the project, so have no intention of undertaking it... That's how much of a toxic impact such behaviour has...
...I think you're misinterpreting a lot of what I've said.
1. My criticism of the Talaxian was that she behaved in a very stereotypically Talaxian manner, and was not penalized realistically for doing so. Also, she disrespected cops, which is not something that an intelligent person does.
2. The MV's economics have always seemed more than a little pointless (Energy Credits on Federation core worlds) and needlessly cruel (the Moab Confederacy as a whole). I recognize that you and the other guys have put a great deal of thought into those economics, but I fundamentally believe that you are too pessimistic about human nature. Which leads into a whole set of arguments about communism in a post-scarcity economy, but that's beside the point.
3. If you were to do such a story, and the Kazon characters weren't the dumb sexist space thugs we know and loathe, my only critique would be that such an interpretation is inherently noncanon, given the sheer lack of sentience displayed by the Kazon over time.
Starsword and I are actually planning on doing a story for MCNL, our "Voyager" AU, where the heroes discover that the Kazon used to be a garden-variety nomadic species on their homeworld before the Trabe showed up looking for slaves. Doesn't make Maje Culluh and such any less of incompetent goons, but at least there's some f*cking variation.
My point is, writer's license allows the writer to craft something as they see fit, and they should not then have to continually defend that authorial choice simply because one very vocal reader takes issue with it and insists upon repeating the 'critique' each time a chapter is posted which features the issue...
Uh...I partially agree.
If you make a decision, as an author, and you get negative feedback, you either change the story, say "don't think I can fix the story" and note it as such, or explain why you made the decision.
Cthulhu knows I do enough of that...
If you address a different concern than that which the reviewer has, don't expect for that person to stop reviewing. And if you keep doing the same old stuff...well, then, the reviewer can keep trying to help you forever, it's your work, and although it's wise to take feedback, you have the ultimate right to ignore it. Just don't expect nonstop glowing reviews.
What they were or may have been doing is speculative and irrelevant. The point is, they were caught and thrown in prison, which would not have happened if they had been using Kazon thugs as an open cover... Their presence in the prison completely disproves your hypothesis that the Trabe were some kind of decadent puppet-masters...
Uh...no.
I'm saying that Kazon are useless for black ops, which is the only thing that the Trabe do in their relationship with the Kazon. The Trabe in that prison were caught doing black ops, which is why they didn't use Kazon.
I didn't think it was obvious if you were being snarky or literal, and given your frequent habit of classifying characters/plots by what trope you feel they fit, I thought you were being literal, and simply trying to diminish the validity of the episode...
And I'm not surprised, as I'm sure the editors received a lot of slash entries which probably made them want to bleach their eyes
Both of whom, had considerably more screen-time and development than the Kazon, and were integral to plots beyond simply being 'easy clichese for heros to overcome'...
Which is part of why I don't like the Kazon...they never grew out of the easy mook cannon fodder role.
Well, we never actually saw Jal Sankur, but given he united his people against the Trabe, he would certainly fit the description (although the hair comment again reveals your racist -- or at the very least, elitist -- attitude toward the Kazon...)
Nah, I just find their hairdos eye-searingly ugly...
When you view the Kazon for what they were -- the disenfranchised youth of self-freed slaves who now lacked the capacity to better themselves without outside assistance -- their behaviours (as much as plot was willing to allow) made sense...
I disagree, I think that any sentient species would contain at least SOME people who would respond well to sudden self-liberation.
Respected by whom? A colleague who was aware of her qualifications, and someone from the future who was also aware of not only her qualifications, but who also viewed her as a Historical Figure, so had her on the pedestal of regard... That does not necessarily translate to the rest of the nation...
Perhaps. But nobody seemed to care that she was an educated black woman, which is admittedly partly because of the small-scale setting but it is at least a sign that that small corner of the world was beyond racism at least on a local level.
I wonder what made these cultures all look 'to the sky'... Couldn't possibly be because that's where aliens come from...
Or, y'know, weather, which was one of the things the shaman was always expected to be able to work with (through appeal to the gods, who obviously must live in the same place their effects come from). I mean, if you need rain, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to call out to a god that lived underground - how could they do anything in the sky?
The Nazca plains decorations don't make sense for anything, especially von Daniken's silly "ancient astronaut" ideas (what kind of spacecraft would require a landing field that looked like a monkey?); they're a lot like the Cathedral at Chartres that way, a place of no Earthly use to anyone, yet one the local culture put quite a bit of time and effort into constructing.
Edit: For a brilliant takedown of some of the ideas folks have about the Nazca plains, I recommend Brin's short story "Those Eyes".
Touching on something I actually have some knowledge about.
Essentially.
As was pointed out upthread, equines evolved in North America and then migrated to the rest of the world, but died in the Americas during the Ice Age (or rather during the depths of the Ice Age; technically we're still in the Ice Age, but that's a different barrel of oats). I don't know off the top of my head if humans had any contact with American equines prior to their extinction, but I do know that none were ever domesticated. Pre-Colombian Americans (I dislike the term "native" Americans) did not have widespread beasts of burden; the Inca and other South American civilizations had domesitcated the llama, but it didn't spread north
As for Pre-Colombian Americans living at Stone Age levels...sort of. The Inca and other societies in South America had just begun to smelt some useful metals like bronze when the Spanish arrived, but not in any widespread way. Some manipulation of soft metals like gold was quite prevalent, but prior to large industrialized societies forming gold isn't useful for anything other than looking pretty (compare silver, which actually has some anti-microbial properties). However, in other areas the Pre-Colombian Americans could be quite advanced. There is a good chance, for example, that Tenochtitlan was the largest city in the world prior to Hern
But they're still a sentient species that's close enough to hybridize, which provides strong evidence for similar neurobiology.
Canon details considerable differences in structure between the Humanoid and Vulcanoid brain, such as the mesiofrontal cortex, which was responsible for (or at least facilitated) their emotional suppression, as well as the previously mentioned ability of the Vulcanoid brain to effectively lobotomise itself to protect the individual from traumatic memories, and additionally, that Vulcan neural pathways are damaged by Trellium-D, where Human neural pathways are not...
Native Americans can't be judged by a European yardstick in part because of the relative lack of large-scale conflict in the early Americas and in part because the available resources were different. The Americas lack easy-to-reach deposits of most metals and such, which provides a major barrier to any people going for European tech...and native cultures developed writing, road systems, calendars, advanced astronomy, complex religions, bureaucracy, and other more administrative/societal advances just as the Europeans did.
Native Americans were just as advanced as Europeans, only in a different way.
That makes sense. I didn't think that the person who had said it was trying to be racist, and equally, I wasn't trying to suggest that Native Americans were indeed 'half animal savages', but from what I had heard, it sounded very much like the 'Noble Savage' mythos of the Native Americans (such as 'the Big Chief' sitting astride his steed) was somewhat distorted from historical fact.
Debatable. I'm perfectly comfortable with my identity if not my rather pathetic body.
But that does not mean that others necessarily are, or always will be... See the previously quoted section from Hampton University about 'socially acceptable manners'... Having atypical reactions to 'things' and then expecting others to agree with said reactions, is hardly polite, but presumptive and insistent...
I don't want to say 'you were taught wrong', but I will say that the saying goes "there's more than one way to skin a cat", and it should be noted that the same approach is not always going to work for each situation...
No tech is perfect, and for an author to assert such is foolish...
So by that rationale, Starfleet should ground its ships just incase of anti-matter containment failure... (Afterall, that was what destroyed the Valkyrie )
Never seen that myself, but I suppose historically...
Vietnam veterans were seriously shat on by the American public when returning home... Even today in the UK, opinions tend to be either unquestioning respect, or abject loathing for barely literate trigger-happy monkeys (and with many folks having a somewhat mixed opinion which is a little of both)
Well, my friend A., who goes out most nights to wave a fake weapon around in the woods (a sturdy plastic naginata called Diplomacy) and enjoys torpedoing bad roleplays, got accepted to 6 medical schools with only a token amount of effort...and she's NOT the smartest person I know.
I know you see things differently, but we don't judge by appearance here.
It's not a matter of judging someone by appearance, but by their demonstration of ability to follow societal norms, which the Hampton University blurb explains very clearly as being a crucial part of the education process...
Which part? Tactics don't need to be any more or any less complex than plot dictates, and, as before, had the writers of Voyager wanted to show a smart Kazon, they could have done so...
1. My criticism of the Talaxian was that she behaved in a very stereotypically Talaxian manner, and was not penalized realistically for doing so. Also, she disrespected cops, which is not something that an intelligent person does.
I agree. As mentioned before, I found Pex irritating, so I stopped reading the story. As for her being 'penalised realistically', if she had been, then the plot would have been considerably different. That was not the story Shevet wanted to tell, and Shevet was under no obligation to introduce what you considered 'realistic penalisation', but you couldn't accept that and kept on complaining until they simply gave up wanting to continue telling the story. As gulberat mentioned on the thread, before it was closed, breaking someone's will to share like that was simply unforgivable. As a counterpoint, in Aftermath, you expressed surprise that Chanos was sentenced as harshly as he was, even though the sentencing was derived from current UCMJ guidelines. His sentence could, arguably, have been longer, had he been found guilty of negligent murder, and that was a decision I floated amongst other writers, so the decision was not simply my own, but a consensus. I guess all I'm trying to say there, is you complained that Pex was not realistically punished (and I do agree) but also expressed surprise when Chanos was realistically punished and held to account for his error in judgement...
2. The MV's economics have always seemed more than a little pointless (Energy Credits on Federation core worlds) and needlessly cruel (the Moab Confederacy as a whole). I recognize that you and the other guys have put a great deal of thought into those economics, but I fundamentally believe that you are too pessimistic about human nature. Which leads into a whole set of arguments about communism in a post-scarcity economy, but that's beside the point.
Don't forget, the economics shown in episodes of Trek, primarily related to closed systems of life aboard a ship. DS-9 brought more 'everyday' examples into play. It also established in canon, the Bank of Bolius. Bolius is a Federation member, so there is canon precedent for a Federation world to used currency-based economics (and if one Federation world does so, it stands that others might also do so...)
3. If you were to do such a story, and the Kazon characters weren't the dumb sexist space thugs we know and loathe, my only critique would be that such an interpretation is inherently noncanon, given the sheer lack of sentience displayed by the Kazon over time.
Ergo not worth my time to write (and equally, not my place to reshape canon races in my own image, until I am writing for Trek in some official manner) I will admit to sometimes stretching canon rules on occasion, but for the most part, I attempt to keep my writing within what has been canonically established (however tenuously)
And as for your statement that the Kazon are not sentient, that is simply intellectual snobbery and racist elitism. They might not be the best educated, but they are indeed sentient beings.
Starsword and I are actually planning on doing a story for MCNL, our "Voyager" AU, where the heroes discover that the Kazon used to be a garden-variety nomadic species on their homeworld before the Trabe showed up looking for slaves. Doesn't make Maje Culluh and such any less of incompetent goons, but at least there's some f*cking variation.
And while that may indeed be accurate, it's just your own headcanon...
If you make a decision, as an author, and you get negative feedback, you either change the story, say "don't think I can fix the story" and note it as such, or explain why you made the decision.
Shevet explained their decision about Pex, but you never accepted it. Patrick explained the MV economics, but you didn't accept that either... There's little point in giving an explanation if it's not going to be accepted. As jonsills pointed out the other day when I pointed out the Talaxian pilots who helped Paris retake Voyager, and you then turned round and said it wasn't a particularly difficult challenge, because it was against the Kazon... That's just shifting the goalposts...
If you address a different concern than that which the reviewer has, don't expect for that person to stop reviewing. And if you keep doing the same old stuff...well, then, the reviewer can keep trying to help you forever, it's your work, and although it's wise to take feedback, you have the ultimate right to ignore it. Just don't expect nonstop glowing reviews.
I don't believe Shevet expected nonstop glowing reviews, but I suspect they expected that once they explained their thoughts on Pex, that you would have the courtesy to accept that and stop, rather than continuing to assume your critique was constructive/helpful/welcome, when it clearly was not.
I'm saying that Kazon are useless for black ops, which is the only thing that the Trabe do in their relationship with the Kazon. The Trabe in that prison were caught doing black ops, which is why they didn't use Kazon.
Uh, yes, because the boldened text is purely your headcanon hypothesis. It is directly contradicted by the canon, so futile to discuss it (your hypothesis)
Doctor: "I've extracted 82% of the Borg hardware."
Yet she still had whatever piece a plot required her to have... So I would say definitely possible that a smart Kazon could have been seen had the writers actually bothered to write one... Thinking about it, given how Kes had been captured by the Kazon-Ogla, and Neelix was living in an orbital junkyard, would have made more sense had his character actually been a Kazon living on the surface who had befriended Kes, rather than a Talaxian living in a floating junkyard, or, even as an additional character, a (smart)Kazon guide (who showed the same kind of gumption as Kes) who chose to leave, and would likely have been more useful than Neelix...
I disagree, I think that any sentient species would contain at least SOME people who would respond well to sudden self-liberation.
Absolutely so, but what if they don't have access to better educational facilities or better resources? This comes down to the kind of social mobility seen in America/England. While someone can improve their lot and become a self-made millionaire (I actually know someone who has achieved this in the UK) not everyone has the connections or opportunities to actually realise their potential. I'm not saying "can't win, don't try," but I am saying that for some, "winning" simply isn't in the cards, and they're never going to get beyond a certain level, and this is very much how I view the Kazon. Humanity was helped (ish) into the galactic sandbox by the Vulcans. Had the Kazon been similarly mentored (or better still, mentored by a species which wasn't trying to keep them down as the Vulcans tried to do) after their liberation over the Trabe, they might have faired better, but of course, that's pure speculation...
Perhaps. But nobody seemed to care that she was an educated black woman, which is admittedly partly because of the small-scale setting but it is at least a sign that that small corner of the world was beyond racism at least on a local level.
How many people from her time did she interact with other than Zefram? They were all Picard and his crew, who were indeed beyond petty racism, but also, who saw her as a notable historical figure... How would you react to being in the same room as say, Lucrezia Borgia, or Captain Cook, or Magellan?
Or, y'know, weather, which was one of the things the shaman was always expected to be able to work with (through appeal to the gods, who obviously must live in the same place their effects come from). I mean, if you need rain, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to call out to a god that lived underground - how could they do anything in the sky?
The Nazca plains decorations don't make sense for anything, especially von Daniken's silly "ancient astronaut" ideas (what kind of spacecraft would require a landing field that looked like a monkey?); they're a lot like the Cathedral at Chartres that way, a place of no Earthly use to anyone, yet one the local culture put quite a bit of time and effort into constructing.
Edit: For a brilliant takedown of some of the ideas folks have about the Nazca plains, I recommend Brin's short story "Those Eyes".
Sure, they might not have been landing fields ler se, but they could have been done in some kind of ongoing appeasement, like a child giving a drawing to a parent...
And thanks for the recommendation, I'll check it out when time allows :cool:
Canon details considerable differences in structure between the Humanoid and Vulcanoid brain, such as the mesiofrontal cortex, which was responsible for (or at least facilitated) their emotional suppression, as well as the previously mentioned ability of the Vulcanoid brain to effectively lobotomise itself to protect the individual from traumatic memories, and additionally, that Vulcan neural pathways are damaged by Trellium-D, where Human neural pathways are not...
Grrrrrr. Stupid Star Trek Lego genetics, ruining a perfectly good hypothesis...
But seriously, is there any evidence AGAINST my idea?
But that does not mean that others necessarily are, or always will be... See the previously quoted section from Hampton University about 'socially acceptable manners'... Having atypical reactions to 'things' and then expecting others to agree with said reactions, is hardly polite, but presumptive and insistent...
Uh...
Look, if you don't want to conform to the societal mold, that's your right and it's other people's duty to accept that*. Same as it's only polite to ask for pronouns.
Exactly... My question is 'why?' What made Humans first look up, rather than down, at the world around them?
Jonsills said it better.
Weather, the sky being more interesting than the ground...but I will note, that many cultures have legends about the Earth and its interior just as varied as those legends of the sky.
I don't want to say 'you were taught wrong', but I will say that the saying goes "there's more than one way to skin a cat", and it should be noted that the same approach is not always going to work for each situation...
So by that rationale, Starfleet should ground its ships just incase of anti-matter containment failure... (Afterall, that was what destroyed the Valkyrie )
No, they just keep multiple backups on every ship, just in case.
Of course, those backups tend to fail because space BS, which is why we have drama.
Vietnam veterans were seriously shat on by the American public when returning home... Even today in the UK, opinions tend to be either unquestioning respect, or abject loathing for barely literate trigger-happy monkeys (and with many folks having a somewhat mixed opinion which is a little of both)
Huh. Guess it's a societal thing I haven't experienced. I've read about that sort of thing, but wasn't sure how much of an exaggeration it was--I mean, look how much of a hero that racist monster Columbus is.
It's not a matter of judging someone by appearance, but by their demonstration of ability to follow societal norms, which the Hampton University blurb explains very clearly as being a crucial lart of the education process...
Which part? Tactics don't need to be any more or any less complex than plot dictates, and, as before, had the writers of Voyager wanted to show a smart Kazon, they could have done so...
And not doing so was lazy writing, turning their "space Crips" into a bunch of one-note stupid thugs.
I agree. As mentioned before, I found Pex irritating, so I stopped reading the story. As for her being 'penalised realistically', if she had been, then the plot would have been considerably different. That was not the story Shevet wanted to tell, and Shevet was under no obligation to introduce what you considered 'realistic penalisation', but you couldn't accept that and kept on complaining until they simply gave up wanting to continue telling the story. As gulberat mentioned on the thread, before it was closed, breaking someone's will to share like that was simply unforgivable. As a counterpoint, in Aftermath, you expressed surprise that Chanos was sentenced as harshly as he was, even though the sentencing was derived from current UCMJ guidelines. His sentence could, arguably, have been longer, had he been found guilty of negligent murder, and that was a decision I floated amongst other writers, so the decision was not simply my own, but a consensus. I guess all I'm trying to say there, is you complained that Pex was not realistically punished (and I do agree) but also expressed surprise when Chanos was realistically punished and held to account for his error in judgement...
I'm saying that Chanos was an otherwise-competent officer who made one error in a high-stress situation (likely with added emotional baggage). Frankly, all he had to go on was a sensor blip...which is exactly what Lulu had when she left the Ensign alone in the cell.
It was an error, and one that another officer might have avoided (by beaming the medical team DOWN instead of beaming Siri up, for example), but it was an error that was understandable.
Also, I'm a civilian pacifist. I don't know much of military justice beyond what I've read of the Romulan breed.
As for my criticism--it is never intended to harm. I offer criticism solely to praise people for a job well done or to poke holes in their writing, and if they take it as a personal attack, that's on them.
Writers are held to a different standard than regular people, because everything that is written is PERMANENT. Every story that, say, objectifies women (think ENT or Seven's outfits) contributes to a culture of objectification. If I say something offensive in writing, that's permanent. Ergo, my feelings as a writer are of less importance than the feelings of others, and frankly I have a duty to not be hurt when people criticize my writing.
Same with TV announcers and personalities, or radio talk show hosts. Nobody cares if Joe Bloggs says something racist in public (besides those around him being disgusted), but everybody cares if Bill Hannity does that because his holo-show reaches trillions.
Don't forget, the economics shown in episodes of Trek, primarily related to closed systems of life aboard a ship. DS-9 brought more 'everyday' examples into play. It also established in canon, the Bank of Bolius. Bolius is a Federation member, so there is canon precedent for a Federation world to used currency-based economics (and if one Federation world does so, it stands that others might also do so...)
Does it have to be currency, though? Non-replicated items are likely prized in the Federation, especially art and such. I generally understand banking in the Federation core worlds as being a thing for art and artifacts.
Ergo not worth my time to write (and equally, not my place to reshape canon races in my own image, until I am writing for Trek in some official manner) I will admit to sometimes stretching canon rules on occasion, but for the most part, I attempt to keep my writing within what has been canonically established (however tenuously)
And as for your statement that the Kazon are not sentient, that is simply intellectual snobbery and racist elitism. They might not be the best educated, but they are indeed sentient beings.
Really? Every sentient creature on earth (including possible sentients like dolphins), and many nonsentients are capable of the pincer maneuver. The Kazon are not.
The Kazon are incapable of doing something that fish can do. That doesn't strike me as a species capable of coherent thought.
Look, it's partly me being snarky and hyperbolic but also partly the objective fact that the Kazon could not perform the literally most basic tactical maneuver in existence without outside assistance. That was so bad that it broke my suspension of disbelief.
Also, AU fics, man. They are a thing and a popular thing.
Shevet explained their decision about Pex, but you never accepted it. Patrick explained the MV economics, but you didn't accept that either... There's little point in giving an explanation if it's not going to be accepted. As jonsills pointed out the other day when I pointed out the Talaxian pilots who helped Paris retake Voyager, and you then turned round and said it wasn't a particularly difficult challenge, because it was against the Kazon... That's just shifting the goalposts...
Well, no, it's not. Again, pincer maneuver.
I will admit that the Talaxians are capable of the simplest task in the universe (defeating the Kazon with comparable or superior tech), but honestly that isn't saying much.
Patrickngo did offer a very nice and reasoned explanation for the MV's economics, I just found it rooted in an inherently pessimistic view of humanity that I can't buy. Call it a fundamental disconnect because we're working from different starting points.
I don't believe Shevet expected nonstop glowing reviews, but I suspect they expected that once they explained their thoughts on Pex, that you would have the courtesy to accept that and stop, rather than continuing to assume your critique was constructive/helpful/welcome, when it clearly was not.
...it's my job as a reviewer to point out when someone's writing an annoying character. If they can't take that, that's there problem.
Have you ever seen me react negatively to a bad review? Sure, I'll explain my reasoning, but I accept that that won't change many people's minds. That's how I'm supposed to be, as a writer. If I let bad reviews hurt me, I go nowhere and I cease to develop.
My point being, authors shouldn't think of reviews as anything other than commentary on their work. Taking reviews personally can only end badly.
Uh, yes, because the boldened text is purely your headcanon hypothesis. It is directly contradicted by the canon, so futile to discuss it (your hypothesis)
I disagree that it is so directly contradicted, but fine, it's just a headcanon anyway.
Doctor: "I've extracted 82% of the Borg hardware."
Yet she still had whatever piece a plot required her to have... So I would say definitely possible that a smart Kazon could have been seen had the writers actually bothered to write one... Thinking about it, given how Kes had been captured by the Kazon-Ogla, and Neelix was living in an orbital junkyard, would have made more sense had his character actually been a Kazon living on the surface who had befriended Kes, rather than a Talaxian living in a floating junkyard, or, even as an additional character, a (smart)Kazon guide (who showed the same kind of gumption as Kes) who chose to leave, and would likely have been more useful than Neelix...
Remember what I said about lazy writing, and what you said about missed opportunities?
Absolutely so, but what if they don't have access to better educational facilities or better resources? This comes down to the kind of social mobility seen in America/England. While someone can improve their lot and become a self-made millionaire (I actually know someone who has achieved this in the UK) not everyone has the connections or opportunities to actually realise their potential. I'm not saying "can't win, don't try," but I am saying that for some, "winning" simply isn't in the cards, and they're never going to get beyond a certain level, and this is very much how I view the Kazon. Humanity was helped (ish) into the galactic sandbox by the Vulcans. Had the Kazon been similarly mentored (or better still, mentored by a species which wasn't trying to keep them down as the Vulcans tried to do) after their liberation over the Trabe, they might have faired better, but of course, that's oure speculation...
I disagree. Look at the Tau'ri from SG-1. They're still decent people by the time they get actually helpful interstellar allies, despite every evil overlord in the quadrant trying to kill them all and/or beat them down.
Not the best example, but my point is that people with potential and drive will see it through no matter the situation.
How many people from her time did she interact with other than Zefram? They were all Picard and his crew, who were indeed beyond petty racism, but also, who saw her as a notable historical figure... How would you react to being in the same room as say, Lucrezia Borgia, or Captain Cook, or Magellan?
1. Leaving politely but swiftly.
2. Calling him a racist jerk.
3. Calling him a foolish racist jerk.
You do have a point. But again, I'm an optimist, and if a drunk jerk like Cochrane could value her opinion and assistance...
I am going to step in and say something to you, worffan, since it seems the point is still not getting across. I am not going to debate it with you at all. But I have to speak.
Unless someone is being *paid* to write, or is preparing a submission with the *expressly stated intention* of being paid, or someone *specifically* asks for unfettered criticism, then it is not your place to shred an author to pieces. You ought to assume that absolute politeness is required and that negative remarks should be kept brief, polite, and NOT repeated, and that if a person will not change what they are doing or otherwise does not agree, you will either be quiet or walk away if you cannot find anything to do other than criticize.
Quite simply, non-professional works, even if at near-pro quality, are NOT done with the same detached and businesslike mindset that someone must by nature adopt in order to publish for money. This is actually part of the reason I have stayed out of the formal publishing world for the most part. I cannot detach from my writing sufficiently to do the kind of ruthless slashing or have others do the same--and I recognize the reality that it IS part of the formal publishing industry and know that I should not ask the industry to change for me.
But fanfic is NOT part of the publishing industry unless you are writing for Pocket Books under contract. For anyone doing fanfic--by nature unpublishable for money, it is a fact that it therefore should not be treated the same as a professional work and the authors should NOT have the expectation of being subject to the same harsh treatment.
If you are *paying* someone, whether you have personally commissioned them, or you are purchasing their product off the shelf, then they do have to accept criticism at a level much beyond any nonprofessional (but even then, without being a flaming jerk about it) and must modify their product to sell if what they are doing is unmarketable or in the case of a personal commission, not satisfying you.
Otherwise, you must back off. It is NOT the same as professional work and you must assume that harsh, repetitive criticism, and any attempts to force someone else to conform with your wishes (which you did) is wholly and completely unacceptable. And if the point is not agreed to the first time, drop it and walk away. You are DONE, and any more can justifiably be construed as harassment and if it is, you are wholly and singularly liable and the victim is NOT to be blamed in any form or fashion for their justifiable hurt and anger.
That is a tactic too often used by bullies that you yourself have pointed out as wrong under other circumstances and it is wrong to apply a different standard to yourself than the one you apply to others. You are fully and completely responsible for the results of your behavior on others. You cannot deflect it onto someone else to absolve yourself of your own words and actions.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
As a nonprofessional writer, my writing has the same potential to harm as a professional writer's work. A professional may reach a greater audience, but that's no excuse to hold back on me, and no excuse for me to take criticism personally. Since writing is permanent and a significant part of our culture, writers, professional or not, MUST divest themselves emotionally from their work. I frankly can't understand how somebody could not do so; writing is like acting in that you can inhabit and stop inhabiting characters effectively at will. The idea of being insulted or hurt by criticism, no matter how much I may disagree with it, is alien to me.
Everybody is equal, and if I am to write and publish that work where other people can see it is is only right that I be held to the same standards as professional writers are*. I accept criticism and criticize others with this concept in mind; frankly, I'm surprised that nobody's criticized me more harshly.
If other people choose to take my remarks personally...it's on them. I don't intend to hurt, I simply intend to point out problems and offer possible solutions. Sometimes, there will be a fundamental disconnect between me and an author or reviewer. That happens. I've had that happen before and it'll happen again. No reason to change the rules, or to stop expanding upon the argument in the hopes of finding common ground.
I know that I'm not the best writer, but that's no reason not to hold me or anyone else to the highest standard of making sense and avoiding Unfortunate Implications. The alternative, of course, is cases like those awful fifty shades books that glorify sexual assault being published. Or Stephen Moffat being put in charge of a show. Or Berman and Braga.
*Unfortunately not a very high standard, given that people paid money for those horrible fifty shades of abuse books, but it's still a STANDARD.
Further, Worffan, it is not "your job as a reviewer" to just keep harping on that one string, because it is not your job to be a reviewer. You aren't being employed to critique, you are reading. There's a difference. If you don't like what you're reading, you are free to stop. That's part of why I'm not repeatedly taking you to task for those multiple Mary Sues you've put into your work (especially Three - saying "she's not perfect because she's crazy" when that has no effect on the story other than "excusing" her actions puts that "flaw" on the same level as "she's just too lovable and maybe a little bit clumsy"). That's your world, and you appear to enjoy it.
Look, if you don't want to conform to the societal mold, that's your right and it's other people's duty to accept that*. Same as it's only polite to ask for pronouns.
*Criminal cases not included.
...is flat-out wrong. It is not anyone's "duty" to accept you. It may be a particular person's (or group's) responsibility to accept you, because they love you - but most of humanity doesn't love you. Most of humanity doesn't know who you are, doesn't care, and isn't going to have any patience with your status as a Special Snowflake Who Feels He Needs Catered To.
It isn't nice, it isn't fair, it may or may not even be right - but it is real. As a scientist, you should be prepared to deal with the universe as it presents itself, rather than as you would like it to be. The other way around is just poor science.
Further, Worffan, it is not "your job as a reviewer" to just keep harping on that one string, because it is not your job to be a reviewer. You aren't being employed to critique, you are reading. There's a difference. If you don't like what you're reading, you are free to stop.
Sure, but that doesn't mean that I should just let lazy writing slide!
Just not consuming the product only works if it's been published for money. Don't watch VOY and its ratings will drop, don't buy awful fifty whatever books and hopefully they'll go away...but for fanfiction? The only option is reviews. And it's the reader's responsibility to provide feedback, that's the only way the writer will grow.
That's part of why I'm not repeatedly taking you to task for those multiple Mary Sues you've put into your work (especially Three - saying "she's not perfect because she's crazy" when that has no effect on the story other than "excusing" her actions puts that "flaw" on the same level as "she's just too lovable and maybe a little bit clumsy"). That's your world, and you appear to enjoy it.
If that was your impression, then I wish you had told me. Repeatedly.
I like being told when I'm TRIBBLE up. Can't learn without it. Hell, half of science is TRIBBLE up and being wrong; if you don't TRIBBLE up and don't discover how you're going wrong you can't really learn anything.
On Three specifically: I'm frankly bored with the character and waiting for the chance to kill it off. And if you think that it's in any way a decent person...dude, it's evil. I use it to poke holes in the sheer stupidity of the Fed intro, game backstory, and Instant Admiral thing. It's a mass-murdering psychopath that gets off primarily on the Janeway Principle. Just like my Instant Admiral murdered xir way to level 60 one man and ship at a time, frequently under dubious circumstances (although I will admit that it's slightly less bad now that Divide et Impera has been removed). If you think that it is in any way a model for good, appropriate, or otherwise non-evil behavior or stable relationships with real sentient beings...dude, it's a monster. It's a monster that literally cannot stop itself from doing whatever a specific set of people tell it to. It's a thing designed to imitate sentience and horrify people.
You can take it another way, and that is your right. If I were still writing the character, I would be more than happy to receive advice on how I was mishandling the character. Because to do otherwise, to be hurt and insulted by such comments...I can't even comprehend that.
...is flat-out wrong. It is not anyone's "duty" to accept you. It may be a particular person's (or group's) responsibility to accept you, because they love you - but most of humanity doesn't love you. Most of humanity doesn't know who you are, doesn't care, and isn't going to have any patience with your status as a Special Snowflake Who Feels He Needs Catered To.
It isn't nice, it isn't fair, it may or may not even be right - but it is real. As a scientist, you should be prepared to deal with the universe as it presents itself, rather than as you would like it to be. The other way around is just poor science.
Nice ad hominem. More importantly...
Society sucks, I know that.
However, identity...identity is IMPORTANT. Not accepting someone's identity is wrong. Special Snowflake whatever aside, if you are something, society SHOULD accept you.
Comments
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Hey, the naturist girl graduated...we're not THAT weird; I mean, it's not like we have a "naked tree" like Reed does*.
We do have Psi Phi (not a frat), and Anime Club, and the LARP that's tomorrow, and the Dactyl Hunt which is basically the LARP with a different theme and a lot of yelling and supersoakers, but we're not weird, really.
*No joke.
Supported by what canon examples of senior Vulcans (or Romulans) suffering long-term mental traumas such as PTSD?
It's also fiction... Fiction does not have to meet your criteria to be considered valid... You might not like it, and that's fine, but that does not diminish the work... Writer's License...
I've been told, that Native Americans didn't ride horses until they were exposed to them by the White Man, and were existing in a Stone Age level. Now, I don't know how true that is, but I consider it plausible (Are horses indigenous to North America?) The idea that aliens have contacted Human cultures (especially South American ones, such as the Nazca Lines) in the past is neither new, nor offensive (unless you choose to allow yourself to find it offensive because Native American history is something you care about) it could even be accurate...
I would counter that most adults would simply accept that they are watching a story and not insist that it be literal or accurate...
They could have had that, but they didn't. It's Star Trek, they chose to go with technobabble... If you can't deal with that because it doesn't fit with your scientific knowledge...
Please apply this to what has been said to you (by several people) about your 'compulsion to comment' in instances such as the thread which you drove Shevet to have closed or other discussions where you have been accused of using your opinion as objective fact...
I disagree. Asking someone for their opinion does not imply the desire to revise one's work, merely to seek an opinion on what is presented as it is presented.
For example, your initial comment on Chapter 8, is telling a character how to (not)proceed. As mentioned, this does not become an issue, but had we chosen to actually have Kian go into a spiral of pheromone addiction or obsessively hanging out with Deltans just to feel the effect of their pheromones, that would be our decision and privilege as writers, and not something for you to dictate in such a manner. If you then decide to choose to not read on because you don't like reading about substance abuse, that is then your decision and privilege as reader...
Something else to bear in mind with your commentaries, are that they are not always accurate...
In Chapter 6 when Lonnie was stalking Noakes, you expressed disbelief about his nanite-camo suit -- Despite the fact that nanites had never been mentioned, and his suit had been clearly described as being holographic in nature -- A better point to raise, would have been that, if his suit was masking his presence both visually and technologically, why did the door sensor react to his presence? ;-) I admit, that was me giving the readers too much of a clue, but it would at least have been a legitimate point to raise for critique, and I would have held my hands up to it ^_^
In Chapter 8, you asserted that Kian should be in one on one therapy, but in Chapter 7 it was stated that she was in therapy with Dr. Rache, whom Ael then identified as a specialist in counselling victims/survivors of sexual assaults, and given her group therapies had been identified as group therapies, it's not unreasonable to infer that those sessions were one on one, as Lees and Cheron's sessions were one on one...
Also, you haven't been outraged (or perhaps not noted) that what Kian did to I'K'rR'h was later identified as being, by Pentaxian standards, the equivalent of sticking a hand in her underwear and feeling her up (although as noted, I'K'rR'h was rather amused by it, and not at all offended, and do bear in mind that the scene was written months ago, and not written as reaction to recent discussions to bait a response) nor outraged that Ashiyana hugged Kian, who has often been described as having touch issues. Perhaps the difference there being that Ashiyana had not been told of Kian's issues, and was simply being friendly, and once she came into contact with her, sensed her pain/turmoil, and allowed her to draw comfort from her for as long as she (Kian) needed... Feedback is most certainly welcome, but please understand that it is strictly as review, not guiding/shaping the story (which is almost wrapped up) and mostly, we just want folks to enjoy it and hopefully find the characters interesting and engaging :cool:
Ahh, one of those kind of fanfics... 'Nuff said ;-)
Dude, the only place you wear lounge-wear, is in the comfort of your own dwellings... Anywhere else, Outdoor Clothes!
I just recalled your comment about wearing a nighty somewhere... And fair enough, sounds like someone not smart enough to come up with anything more creative/witty than calling someone a f*g...
Those aren't exactly things to be brought up as defence points
Being stricter than what one is used to, is not harsh... As before, it's about respect for oneself and others... Every school I attended had a set uniform, and although when I was at college, my course (essentially film and media studies, with English, photography and a few other things thrown in) there was no uniform, everyone was expected to dress appropriately (ie Outdoor Clothes) Hair and makeup students had to wear the same kind of 'scrubs' which professional beauticians wear... Try rocking up to work in pyjamas and see how long you stay employed
Can you clarify? Google wasn't much help (although Bullywugs look kinda cool)
Based upon what evidence?
One or a hundred, doesn't matter. Only one episode showed Paris having an interest in all things nautical, doesn't diminish the revelation though...
Don't diminish, it's not a fic, it's released canon... And either way, they are described as Trabe, and shows that they weren't in any way 'buffered' by the Kazon...
And what would be wrong with that? And who's to say the Kazon were dumb? You? Because a few managed to 'blow themselves up with a replicator'? I would have thought that someone with such an interest in the sciences of the natural world would have a more rational anthropological mind, rather than to judge a group(s) to the extent which you do... What you say about the Kazon, is the same as what some bigots say about the African-Americans gang-bangers who live in near-slum conditions, and view them as nothing more than a bunch of 'dumb ni**ers'. Doesn't matter that they are the disenfranchised remnants of a slave culture which (until recently) has not had the same access to education, housing, career prospects as White people. It's real easy to look down on someone who hasn't had the same opportunities, but that doesn't mean seeing the whole picture or being correct in said judgement. The Kazon were created specifically as a Bloods and Crips analogue, and so everything which drives and shapes gang culture applies to them.
To use a fic-example... (something I usually try and refrain from) If you were to send William Abel Kane (the current generation) into mid-90s South-Central LA from his snooty Boston upbringing and Harvard schooling, he's going to get turned over and lucky to walk out alive. If Lamar Wilkins gets sent up north to 'high society', he's going to look like a pig-ignorant thug... Yet each man is the 'king of his own jungle'. In fact, this gives me an idea for a novel...
But back on point... I'd say the Kazon are at about the same social/technological level as Humanity at the point of First Contact with the Vulcans, and to judge them by comparison to the Federation, is to not only do them a disservice, but to willfully ignore what they actually are, and the forces which made them that way...
"Actually, if I posted what I really think of you, I'd be permabanned from the Internet."
"This what happens when somebody forgets to add enough chlorine to the gene pool."
"So, you hate this game enough you feel compelled to share the hatred with us. Excuse me, your masochism is showing. Might wanna tuck that back in."
"Would someone please wake me when we get to the part where I am supposed to care. Wouldn't want to miss it."
"If you play the way you post, you've got what? A gazillion DPS?"
"If you played half as much as you complain here, you'd have leveled everyone's character to 61 by now."
"Not only can you not have ____ now, I am in talks with Cryptic to make sure you'll never get it."
"Honestly? You're one of those people who can suck the fun out of a funeral."
"Would you like a Real Life? I think I have a spare one you can borrow."
"As long as ____ are bothering you, they are leaving me alone. I'm good with this."
"Wait, what?! Are you playing this game with your Starfleet uniform on as we speak?"
That was indeed cathartic. Again, thank you, OP.
Primarily I'm drawing conclusions based on canonical facts. IMO, it DOES diminish the work. If you have to resort to something obviously wrong and ridiculous to justify something, then you're doing it wrong.
Sort of how Quick & Ruben (2009) gets anyone who cites it laughed out of the room, because the authors used an anatomical diagram that any three-year-old, much less a specialist in the field, could have told them was wrong--and the fact that these men WERE ostensibly specialists says that they KNEW what they were doing was BS, yet they did it anyway... Look up Cahokia.
Horses evolved in North America, but went extinct in the region fairly early on in the Ice Ages. Some hippidiform horses survived a little longer in South America, but from at least the last Ice Age onwards they were gone from the hemisphere. Notably, they were gone for longer than the rest of the Ice Age megafauna--even mammoths survived after the last glacial retreat in the form of the grazing-specialist Jefferson's Mammoth (a descendant of the Ice Age Columbian mammoth), before Human predation wiped them out. Since I do care about Native American history, I AM offended (and it's not a choice, it's an instinctive reaction) to the very idea. Saying that aliens were involved insinuates that the Nazca culture lacked the mathematical tools to create the sculptures...which is BS, because Cahokia clearly did and nobody accuses THEM of having been taught by magic space white men.
Wikipedia is a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_Lines Which is why we have so much sh*t on TV, because that attitude encourages lazy writers to use BS to make their bad scripts work.
I recommend that you read John Scalzi's "Redshirts", it covers this in quite a bit of detail. Again, the fact that they went with obviously ridiculous technobabble weakens the story by being a flimsy cover-up for the weaknesses of the script. ...yeah, that's the same thing. If you want to know what people think, you're tacitly expecting people to point out flaws in your writing so that you can fix them and/or not make the same mistakes again.
Not a senior, but we do have Chu'lak, driven insane by Dominion War-induced PTSD. (DS9: "Field of Fire")
I don't think the long lifespan really enters into it, personally.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
See, I'm not an idiot. I've read a LOT (mostly history and science, sure, but history's kind of relevant here) and I read the NY Times and the Guardian every day to keep up on world affairs.
I may not know anything about the subtleties of social interaction beyond the most basic rules, and I may be extremely cautious for fear of hurting people, but I'm not a complete moron. I wouldn't be in this school if I was. Then frankly, the rest of the world bites.
If the world's all about fitting people into 2 or 3 cookie-cutter boxes and judging them based on that...then frankly, I'm fine with being unrealistic.
But honestly, it doesn't seem that strange to me. Would you refer to a man as "she", for example? To said person's face? It just seems like common decency to make sure you know what gender or lack thereof someone is before using gendered pronouns*.
*Which is why I prefer the genderless "xe/xir" for regular use.
First, I know that I'm expected to show up to job interviews in a suit and tie. That doesn't mean I have to, say, wear that into the field; in fact, I'd be insane to do so.
Field clothes, in order of importance, are:
That's a range that goes from "All I have are cargo pants and snarky shirts so I just threw the ones that smelled the least awful on this morning" to "Pure, unstained white T-shirt and flawless, just-washed pants".
Point is, field clothes look ridiculous, and everyone knows it. It's simply basic decency not to laugh. And I just extend that to everything.
Now meet more people. People who aren't home-schooled, and who don't go to your apparently rather unusual institute of higher education. (The University of Washington may have a loose dress code, but it still has a dress code...) And when they want to talk to you about their lives, here's the part that's hardest for most people - listen. Don't be thinking about what you're going to reply, just take in what's being said. Most folks never do master that part; instead, they're internally comparing the other person's life to their own, or thinking about what they want to say in return, or sometimes just letting their minds wander, and it's hard to learn anything about people that way.
And it's interesting you ask that question about use of pronouns. There is at least one person of my acquaintance who is (so far) biologically male, but I still refer to her as female, because that's how she presents herself. (She's an old Army buddy of my roommate's; she didn't start transferring her gender until after she got out, of course. She's on hormone therapy right now, but plans on having reassignment surgery in a year or two. She does dress in a sterotypically feminine style; I first met her at my niece's nail salon.) But no, I didn't ask her which pronoun she prefers - she was polite, and told us. (If you're going to be at variance with the standard, the onus is on you to tell others, not on them to guess. English has no neuter case to refer to living beings, as "it" implies something sub-human or not living. "Xe" is a horrible neologism, and I will have nothing to do with it, any more than I will with words like "shiznit".)
What the? EPIC! My rifle is officially legendary! :eek:
My Ship Builds: USS Conqueror, HMS Victorious, HMS Concord, ISS Queen Elizabeth, Black Widow III
Click here to view my DeviantArt.
Which ones?
Again. Fiction not factual writing... It might not be what you enjoy, but that doesn't mean no one else can/does...
I've had a quick look at Cahokia, and couldn't see anything pertaining to horses (but it's getting late here, and I'll research more thoroughly at a later date...)
So there were no horses in North America until they were (re)introduced by Europeans?
Again, I'm not really trying to make a point here, I'm just repeating something I'd heard...
No, it's not an instinctive reaction, because it is not one which all people would automatically share. The only instinctive fears a Human is born with, are falling, and loud noises. Everything else, is conditioned/developed. It is a trained reaction due to it being a subject you have chosen to care about, and so as Fry pointed out about 'being offended', 'so f*cking what?' Being offended does not obligate others to act differently.
Wasn't my theory, just one I was using to illustrate the point that that is not the first time that it has been suggested that aliens have had an impact on an ancient culture in Central or South America. Regardless of what you feel that insinuates about the Nazca culture, the question they raise for me, is why would they have bothered going to the trouble of creating something which can only be appreciated when viewed from altitude? 'For the lols' doesn't really seem adequate in such a situation. Also, given your rejection of 'magic space white men', I consider it ironic that one of the series is identified on the provided link as 'the astronaut'
No it isn't. I would expect a solicited general opinion to note highlights as well as addressing flaws. 'Picking holes' and 'constructive criticism' are not the same thing. And as before, just because I ask someone what they think of something, that does not mean that I intend to actually implement anything, it just means I've asked what they thought, because it's good to get views other than one's own.
Condescension aside, yes, we do try and take things into consideration when writing to remain as internally consistent as possible... The point I was making, is that you started commenting and objecting about something (nanites) which had not only not been mentioned, but where the actual specifics (holography) had been, and then suggested one on one therapy, where it could already be inferred that she was attending on on one therapy
And the usefulness of group therapy, is that Kian is massively isolated from her home, in an environment where she would not be looked upon favourably by the general population (Military veterans are notoriously scorned by their societies...) Group therapy would allow her to feel less isolated, by being amongst others who not only share her experiences and issues, but can help her to overcome them...
Fair enough, and it wouldn't've been a case of saying anything, just a matter of thought when writing as to what was reasonable under the circumstances in terms of the behaviours and reactions of those involved... Kian was trying to demonstrate the subtlety of movement of her armour with a gesture which, in any other species, would be considered harmlessly playful (The fact that Pentaxians in mourning shave their heads, is a visible indication that they are not receptive to such gestures) and Ashiyana was simply being friendly, and then giving comfort to someone in desperate need of it...
:eek: Quite frankly, I find that shocking, and an inexcusable enabling of bizarre eccentricities which will not be tolerated in the outside world... Turning up to class wearing a blanket here in the UK, and I would have thought anywhere else in the world, would likely result in said person being asked some serious psychological questions...
Fair enough, I just wondered if you'd been wearing it at the time you were yelled at. While it wouldn't've excused the comments, it might've explained it, but from what you've said, as mentioned the person just sounds like a tool who's abusive to others... Glad you found a use for the $$s :cool:
As above, I find it disturbing. It is certainly not the kind of behaviour I would expect any facility of higher learning to allow or permit to continue...
I have seen the Kazon. I'll repeat the question: based upon what evidence?
Can't say I agree with you on that
No different to gulberat's portrayal of the Cardassians as the newly reformed guardians of morality... It's writer's license...
Yup, Memory Alpha specifically identifies them as Trabe. And maybe, but it's irrelevant what they were doing, as the point is, they were clearly doing 'something away from their society' to wind up in an alien prison, not keeping to themselves or using Kazon as some kind of unwitting buffer...
Just because it fits the criteria of a trope, that doesn't make it any less valid a story, and again, as a released episode, it is most certainly not 'a fic'... Tropes aren't the be all end all of literary analysis...
They weren't comparing them to gangs, the gangs were the inspiration for the concept. Also, you're ignoring the fact that the Kazon were written as the villains. The deck was constantly stacked against them, so they could never really be shown in a more dimensional manner...
No, just to overcome bigotry, racism, many diseases, develop (or acquire) new technology to enable colonisation etc...
Extreme emotions tend to exacerbate mental illness, especially depression, and make stress harder to handle.
Real-world psychology plus canonical statements about Vulcans equals conclusion. I think that we're completely in disagreement here...and I don't know how to resolve the dispute, so I'm just going to leave it here by saying that if a writer, ESPECIALLY a fiction writer, has to resort to something OBVIOUSLY scientifically incorrect without using a built-in aspect of the fictional universe to justify it, that's lazy writing. Horses? I was referring to the mound-building and advanced society. Correct. And it was a different species, domestic horses as opposed to American horses.
Interestingly, the ecosystem has evolved without horses for just long enough that they may qualify as an invasive species in the Great Plains. They certainly do without natural predators, which is why I get angry whenever I see protesters trying to stop the government from rounding up feral horses to keep the population under control. Um...I can't control the fact that I was unable to speak from shock after seeing the epic racism of "Tattoo". Trust me. If I had been able to speak I would've been cursing. A lot. Maybe these people believed that their deity or deities looked down on them from above, and built those structures as a form of temple? The Cahokian culture did the same, and several South American cultures worshiped an anthropomorphic sun god.
It's no less reasonable than a bunch of Sumerians deciding that they worship a magic sky daddy and setting out for Palestine. That's...that's not how I've been taught to critique and take critique.
When I write, I know it's not perfect. Hell, I don't even give most of my stuff titles because I think it'd be too arrogant.
Ergo, it'd be arrogant and stupid of me to not take criticism. Nanites or holography, it's one glitch and he's SCREWED.
As for Kian...ok, this may be my background, but I've always been taught to be respectful to military vets and tread gently around their issues. Being there for them is best, apparently, just like for people with depression. I get really disgusted when people bad-mouth such people, it's not the soldiers' fault that Bush threw us into an illegal war. That's Bush and Cheney's fault.
Dunn how effective that group therapy would be compared to just having friends, though...at the risk of sounding arrogant, what she needs most is someone like me, who's instinctively put friends first from a young age (to the point that my parents kept telling me to be more selfish because people kept walking over me--my brother has it even worse). She needs a platonic friend or two about her age who act as a support network.
Sort of like how Omek'ti'kallan is a "keeper" for D'trel. Well, here it's just "do the work and have fun with it" (we like to enjoy our learning), and the professors really don't care what you dress like because most of them only dress up for board meetings and such anyway.
And then there's the annual valentine's day ninja outing, Ninjagrams, where I and a bunch of other people dress up as ninjas with this cool dude called Raymond and deliver valentines in class. It's fun, the professors are all in on it (Williamson's Tolkein-Pullman class is always a 10-minute reenactment of a LOTR scene, this year it was Weathertop, I took down Raymond and was about to "kill" him when Williamson used mangled Latin to stun me, it was awesome), the Organic Chemistry professor methylates the DNA of a bunch of ninjas, and we raise a metric butt ton of money for charity doing it.
We're a pretty laid-back school. Doesn't change the fact that our graduates can effectively pick their graduate school. Nah, that was a different time...and yeah, there's comics for 10, 11 (bleah), and even 12. It works for us... This is a species that needed outside assistance to perform a pincer maneuver.
Let me quantify that: Dabulamanzi kaMpande could do an unassisted pincer maneuver. A man who got beaten by a force 1/20th of his own, with the enemy low on ammo, tired, injured, and trapped in a kill box, could manage a pincer maneuver. The most legendary incompetent in Zulu military history could manage a pincer maneuver.
The pincer maneuver is so basic that you don't even need to be sentient to manage it. Pack-hunting animals do it all the time.
Needing assistance to perform a pincer maneuver is the ultimate mark of idiocy. Which is your right, it's just a fan hypothesis. Sure. Just as I like to write old-school Cardies as My Country, Right or Wrong. If you get caught trying to sabotage an alien government, you're going to get caught and thrown in prison, not the space pirate thugs you use as open cover. True, and I could've chosen better words, but I was obviously being snarky and let's face it, it fits ever criterion for hurt-comfort.
Which is humorous because the official Trek magazine's fanfic contest banned hurt-comfort at the time. Which is kind of the same thing...and your second point, I'm calling BS, just look at the Cardassians (other than Garak). Villains, at least until late DS9, but still varied and multidimensional.
Look at the Ferengi, the Klingons...we've seen people of all stripes from those species.
Have we ever seen a Kazon that was not a violent, unintelligent thug with terrible hair? Perhaps, but we still had R&D, and racism and sexism don't seem to have been THAT big of a problem at least on the national level given Lily (educated, intelligent, respected black woman), and we were capable of tactics that even nonsentients are capable of but the Kazon aren't.
Mind you, my own experience left me with a fair understanding of the night-flash version of PTSD (I had a recurring nightmare where some software mistake I'd made led to WWIII - my wife knew one of those was coming on when I started chanting six-character code groups in my sleep, targeting data for Peacekeeper missiles, which would be followed shortly by a scream). Still not the same as the demons that eat him daily, though.
As for the Vulcans helping humans overcome bigotry, in a world with more than one intelligent species there are more kinds of racism than human-on-human; we saw plenty of anti-Vulcan bigotry in ENT, and sexism was still a thing in TOS (because there was no convenient way to completely separate the scriptwriters from their upbringing, the same reason Heinlein comes across as sexist today even though he was quite progressive for his time).
But the way worffan101 describes his school, reminds me of my own life, about a decade ago.
I went to a college that was filled with 800 variants of me. It was an engineering school that focused on two very specific fields, we went to school 5 days a week, 8 hours a day. There wasn't much concern for hygiene, or style and I routinely rode the city bus to class in my pajamas. It was a pretty amazing experience, and my best friends went through it with me.
Once I graduated and entered the 'real world' I was shocked to find that everyone wasn't like me. Not only that, many of them were significantly different than me (not worse than me, or better than me, just different). I found myself having to fend for myself in a world where I didn't really get it (and they didn't get me). I knew my stuff technically, and did my job well, but man, I couldn't cut it socially.
It's easy to say that "you're okay being unrealistic" until you find that the promotion, or the raise or even the good projects are denied to you because you don't mesh with the team. Education and smarts only got me so far, and then I was lost.
Everything changed about a year after I graduated. I was working in a warehouse (to pay the bills) while getting job interviews, and not getting any call backs. I was living with some friends (a couple of those 800 variants) close to the local university. A group of university students moved in next door. 4 girls to be exact. The day they moved in, a neighbourhood dog got loose and attacked me. I wasn't hurt, but man, it was a hell of an icebreaker.
They were nothing like me. They were the 'cheerleader' and 'football player' stereotypes. I didn't hang out with them in highschool, and no one was like that in my college. Over the next four years, I got to know them (and their boyfriends). I hung out with them all the time. I watched my first superbowl with them (still don't get it), went clubbing, went clothes shopping, and there were a few days were I was out drinking until it was time to go to work. It was all that crazy university stuff you see in the movies, and I got a brief glimpse into it.
This wasn't 'my corruption' as some of my friends thought... It was a research project. They represented the managers, accountants, lawyers, marketing guys and hr reps I had to deal with at work. I watched them, studied them, and most importantly, I tried really hard not to judge them based on my own opinions. (I couldn't compare my own experiences to some of the stuff they went through.) Like jonsills recommended, I did my best to listen to them, to understand where they came from, and where they were going.
Somewhere in there, it got easier for me to function in the world. I got a job at an engineering firm as part of the R&D team and suddenly I was out of the warehouse and my career started.
Like it or not, the world is full of 'normies' and you need to play by their rules. You can't change that from outside the pack. I'm not saying to compromise who you are, but expand who you are to understand how to work within the system.
Anyhoo, felt like sharing my own experience. Again, sorry for butting in.
proteusrex...I'm not going to be a doctor, a lawyer, or an accountant. I'm going to be an assistant professor somewhere, hopefully working my way up to full professor or maybe even a tenured position. I'll pick at rocks with dental tools while wearing a big floppy hat and talk to college students about dinosaurs for a few decades, and then I'll retire on social security but still do research and stuff because I love paleontology.
If my school's any judge, you don't need to wear a suit more than once or twice a year to be a professor.
Neither am I, all I'm saying is that, more often than not, these are the folks that control the purse-strings. They choose which projects I work on, and which project's my bosses team gets funding for. Chances are they'll hold the key to your grant money (maybe be on the board that hires you), and you'll need to work with them to get what you want. Their opinion of you will mean as much (if not more) than how good you are at doing your job.
I really hope that's how it works out for you. I worked in a warehouse for 2 years so I could afford to look for a job in my field, and when I did, I spent 3 more years working at the bottom to get close to the position I actually wanted. It was miserable. Now I am where I am, and am considering my next step, which is no longer in line with my old future plans (and I'm still 30+ years from retiring). Keep your plans as flexible as possible. I know people who are still trying to get a teaching position after years of trying, and I know others who are doing something completely different now. I hope to find out that you're one of the few who gets exactly what you want right away, but those folks are few and far between.
Is that to get to be a professor? or once you become a professor? Regardless, hopefully your school is a good example. I thought the same of my school, and found myself horribly mistaken when I came out of it.
Anyhoo, I'll shut up soon. Unsolicited advice is the worst. :P
You're a smart person and I admire your knowledge and passion, but think of how much smarter your future self is going to be. You've only experienced/read/absorbed a fraction of the life experiences and new data you're going to encounter on your way to retiring. Keep an open mind as best you can. Everything can be a learning experience, and like it or not, all the opinions you have now will be refined, honed and possibly even changed completely.
Ok, I'll shut up now. I'm only butting in here because I feel like I was very similar to you when I was in school. It took me a long time to open my head enough to grow and I feel like it slowed me down professionally and personally.
Of course, your actual evolution may vary.:)
Take Care
And which we are already in agreement, that those extreme emotions are controlled, albeit by mental discipline in Vulcans, or social contracts in Romulans. Also, it has to be noted that your assertion that extreme emotions exacerbate mental illness, is very Humancentric. And again, no canonical statements about Vulcans being continually traumatised by the events of their pasts. Even the episode which lead to the Doctor making the observation about the Vulcan brain lobotomising itself, was because Tuvok had been infected with a virus which survived by mimicking a traumatic memory which its host would repress, so would typically be an unknown but constant presence, but which the Vulcan brain reacted more radically to...
Equals flawed conclusion.
You can't apply Human psychological norms or responses to non-Humans, as it won't necessarily translate. And again, there are no canonical statements about Vulcans of advanced age typically suffering from the kind of issues you describe, only exceptions, which are highlighted as specific illnesses...
I'm happy to agree to disagree, as long as you are happy to accept that your opinion on the subject, is not the baseline by which the quality of fiction is rated.
No worries, I guess the points of conversation overlapped :cool:
So what I was told, that at the point of contact between Native Americans and Europeans, the Native Americans were living at a Stone Age level, without even the skill of equestrianism, is correct?
I'm sure you could learn... Most, if not all, behaviours can be modified, and I've heard it only takes a month to break or develop a habit. To react solely on instinct, is the behaviour of an animal. What you are describing, is a conditioned response based on something you have, consciously or otherwise, taken a stance on, not an instinct necessarily shared by all people. You might claim that you don't care about not 'being normal', but in a few years once you're out in the real world, I suspect your opinion will change...
I wonder what made these cultures all look 'to the sky'... Couldn't possibly be because that's where aliens come from...
Critique is not just focussing on what you consider bad points, but also pointing to positive aspects as well. Equally, as was pointed out on Shevet's now-closed thread, continuing to 'give critique' in such a manner, after the author has explained their reasons for a character (who was enough to make me not want to read any more of the story) is simply rude, and no longer 'constructive criticism'...
But it didn't, and doesn't glitch. Ever. As authors, we can say that Lonnie has a perfect system, and that's all there is too it. Your opinion on if it could or should glitch, is inconsequential to that... It's a bit like if someone was to say "Starships... That's a lot of anti-matter to be hauling around, all it would take is for their containment system to breach and they're toast..." Admiral Quinn's not going to suddenly go: "Holy dogsh*t! We've got to stop using starships!!! Get everyone back before they get blown up!!!" By all means make an observation, but once it's addressed, there's no need to further assert the opinion...
There's (and always has been) a lot of anti-war sentiment which personnel wind up on the receiving end of...
As jonsills pointed out, group therapy provides a support network of people who actually share, and can relate to, the issues a veteran is experiencing. It is arrogant, but only in a psychological sense that it would actually be misguided, even if well-intentioned, as someone like yourself would simply be an enabler, rather than someone who could actually give constructive advice for coping. Most people of Kian's age have no shared frame of reference to her experiences, so they simply wouldn't understand what she has been through, nullifying their advice. The only people her own age who can relate (Cheron and Lees excluded) are on Moab III, and they would equally be a toxic influence, because they would not see the issue in their situation. I have a friend who is former US military, who has many of the same issues as D'trel:
- A victim of sexual assault in her late teens
- The father of her child was murdered (shot in the head by gang-bangers while he sat in a car wash)
- She was sexually assaulted by superior officers whilst in service
- PTSD from operational deployments
Additionally, She's also been raising a child with behavioural issues as a lone parent. Now, she's been in a relationship with a dude for about a year now. Seems a nice enough guy, and clearly treats her like a princess, doesn't smack her around, put her down or hit on her friends etc, but all of the issues in their relationship (which is one blow up away from failing) are because he simply does not understand that she is not just some 'single-mom fixer-upper', but a veteran with serious psychological issues which he, as a civilian, simply cannot relate to enough to actually provide the support which a veterans group can... Him 'being nice' to her, simply is not enough to help her cope, and no matter how well-intentioned or absolute his support, it is simply inadequate to her needs because he lacks the shared experiences to truly relate to them...
Obviously this is not the school you go to, but a quick google search showed Hampton University's thoughts about dress code...
In the real world, yes. InVerse, tactics only need to be as complex or as simple, as allow a hero or villain to succeed... The Kazon can only ever be as smart as the original writers made them. As I said above, I could write about other Kazon sects who were much smarter and more dangerous than those seen, then and create an interesting story, but what would be the point? Given your treatment of Pex, MasterVerse Economics and Lonnie's tactics, I can already predict that all you'd do is TRIBBLE all over it, stating after each appearance of Maj Qallum, that the Kazon were only ever mindless thugs, so they can't be rofl-stomping Alpha Quadrant ships, because that's all Kazon are... And as Shevet did, I would eventually just think "What's the point?" and stop posting additional updates... I already think that before even beginning the project, so have no intention of undertaking it... That's how much of a toxic impact such behaviour has...
My point is, writer's license allows the writer to craft something as they see fit, and they should not then have to continually defend that authorial choice simply because one very vocal reader takes issue with it and insists upon repeating the 'critique' each time a chapter is posted which features the issue...
What they were or may have been doing is speculative and irrelevant. The point is, they were caught and thrown in prison, which would not have happened if they had been using Kazon thugs as an open cover... Their presence in the prison completely disproves your hypothesis that the Trabe were some kind of decadent puppet-masters...
I didn't think it was obvious if you were being snarky or literal, and given your frequent habit of classifying characters/plots by what trope you feel they fit, I thought you were being literal, and simply trying to diminish the validity of the episode...
And I'm not surprised, as I'm sure the editors received a lot of slash entries which probably made them want to bleach their eyes
Both of whom, had considerably more screen-time and development than the Kazon, and were integral to plots beyond simply being 'easy clichese for heros to overcome'...
Well, we never actually saw Jal Sankur, but given he united his people against the Trabe, he would certainly fit the description (although the hair comment again reveals your racist -- or at the very least, elitist -- attitude toward the Kazon...)
Had a story required there to be an intellectual Kazon, I'm sure there would have been one...
When you view the Kazon for what they were -- the disenfranchised youth of self-freed slaves who now lacked the capacity to better themselves without outside assistance -- their behaviours (as much as plot was willing to allow) made sense...
Respected by whom? A colleague who was aware of her qualifications, and someone from the future who was also aware of not only her qualifications, but who also viewed her as a Historical Figure, so had her on the pedestal of regard... That does not necessarily translate to the rest of the nation... To *shudder* quote Kanye West...
That's why you always see me with at least one of my watches
Rollies and Pasha's done drove me crazy
I can't even pronounce nothing, pass that versace!
Then I spent 400 bucks on this
Just to be like ni**a you ain't up on this!
And I can't even go to the grocery store
Without some ones thats clean and a shirt with a team
It seems we living the american dream
But the people highest up got the lowest self esteem
The prettiest people do the ugliest things
For the road to riches and diamond rings
We shine because they hate us, floss cause they degrade us
We trying to buy back our 40 acres
And for that paper, look how low we a'stoop
Even if you in a Benz, you still a ni**er in a coop/coupe
Essentially.
As was pointed out upthread, equines evolved in North America and then migrated to the rest of the world, but died in the Americas during the Ice Age (or rather during the depths of the Ice Age; technically we're still in the Ice Age, but that's a different barrel of oats). I don't know off the top of my head if humans had any contact with American equines prior to their extinction, but I do know that none were ever domesticated. Pre-Colombian Americans (I dislike the term "native" Americans) did not have widespread beasts of burden; the Inca and other South American civilizations had domesitcated the llama, but it didn't spread north
As for Pre-Colombian Americans living at Stone Age levels...sort of. The Inca and other societies in South America had just begun to smelt some useful metals like bronze when the Spanish arrived, but not in any widespread way. Some manipulation of soft metals like gold was quite prevalent, but prior to large industrialized societies forming gold isn't useful for anything other than looking pretty (compare silver, which actually has some anti-microbial properties). However, in other areas the Pre-Colombian Americans could be quite advanced. There is a good chance, for example, that Tenochtitlan was the largest city in the world prior to Hern
I'm not convinced. Yes and no.
Native Americans can't be judged by a European yardstick in part because of the relative lack of large-scale conflict in the early Americas and in part because the available resources were different. The Americas lack easy-to-reach deposits of most metals and such, which provides a major barrier to any people going for European tech...and native cultures developed writing, road systems, calendars, advanced astronomy, complex religions, bureaucracy, and other more administrative/societal advances just as the Europeans did.
Native Americans were just as advanced as Europeans, only in a different way. Debatable. I'm perfectly comfortable with my identity if not my rather pathetic body. European cultures did. African cultures did. Everyone looks to the sky.
It's like religion, a basic part of human nature; we look up and see eternity, and wonder.
Which is why I'm an optimist. Which I do. Again, I've been taught otherwise. No tech is perfect, and for an author to assert such is foolish...
Perhaps. I still doubt that it's as effective as Lonnie believes, though. Never seen that myself, but I suppose historically... Again, I admit that I don't have direct experience here (only with people with clinical depression), so I bow to your and Jonsills' superior experience. Well, my friend A., who goes out most nights to wave a fake weapon around in the woods (a sturdy plastic naginata called Diplomacy) and enjoys torpedoing bad roleplays, got accepted to 6 medical schools with only a token amount of effort...and she's NOT the smartest person I know.
I know you see things differently, but we don't judge by appearance here. Debatable. ...I think you're misinterpreting a lot of what I've said.
1. My criticism of the Talaxian was that she behaved in a very stereotypically Talaxian manner, and was not penalized realistically for doing so. Also, she disrespected cops, which is not something that an intelligent person does.
2. The MV's economics have always seemed more than a little pointless (Energy Credits on Federation core worlds) and needlessly cruel (the Moab Confederacy as a whole). I recognize that you and the other guys have put a great deal of thought into those economics, but I fundamentally believe that you are too pessimistic about human nature. Which leads into a whole set of arguments about communism in a post-scarcity economy, but that's beside the point.
3. If you were to do such a story, and the Kazon characters weren't the dumb sexist space thugs we know and loathe, my only critique would be that such an interpretation is inherently noncanon, given the sheer lack of sentience displayed by the Kazon over time.
Starsword and I are actually planning on doing a story for MCNL, our "Voyager" AU, where the heroes discover that the Kazon used to be a garden-variety nomadic species on their homeworld before the Trabe showed up looking for slaves. Doesn't make Maje Culluh and such any less of incompetent goons, but at least there's some f*cking variation. Uh...I partially agree.
If you make a decision, as an author, and you get negative feedback, you either change the story, say "don't think I can fix the story" and note it as such, or explain why you made the decision.
Cthulhu knows I do enough of that...
If you address a different concern than that which the reviewer has, don't expect for that person to stop reviewing. And if you keep doing the same old stuff...well, then, the reviewer can keep trying to help you forever, it's your work, and although it's wise to take feedback, you have the ultimate right to ignore it. Just don't expect nonstop glowing reviews. Uh...no.
I'm saying that Kazon are useless for black ops, which is the only thing that the Trabe do in their relationship with the Kazon. The Trabe in that prison were caught doing black ops, which is why they didn't use Kazon.
And again, fan hypothesis. Sorry. Should've been clearer.
Oh, I bet... Which is part of why I don't like the Kazon...they never grew out of the easy mook cannon fodder role. Nah, I just find their hairdos eye-searingly ugly... Possibly. I disagree, I think that any sentient species would contain at least SOME people who would respond well to sudden self-liberation. Perhaps. But nobody seemed to care that she was an educated black woman, which is admittedly partly because of the small-scale setting but it is at least a sign that that small corner of the world was beyond racism at least on a local level. Indeed...
Fortunately, I have the skills to go into ecology as well.
The Nazca plains decorations don't make sense for anything, especially von Daniken's silly "ancient astronaut" ideas (what kind of spacecraft would require a landing field that looked like a monkey?); they're a lot like the Cathedral at Chartres that way, a place of no Earthly use to anyone, yet one the local culture put quite a bit of time and effort into constructing.
Edit: For a brilliant takedown of some of the ideas folks have about the Nazca plains, I recommend Brin's short story "Those Eyes".
That makes sense. I didn't think that the person who had said it was trying to be racist, and equally, I wasn't trying to suggest that Native Americans were indeed 'half animal savages', but from what I had heard, it sounded very much like the 'Noble Savage' mythos of the Native Americans (such as 'the Big Chief' sitting astride his steed) was somewhat distorted from historical fact.
But that does not mean that others necessarily are, or always will be... See the previously quoted section from Hampton University about 'socially acceptable manners'... Having atypical reactions to 'things' and then expecting others to agree with said reactions, is hardly polite, but presumptive and insistent...
Exactly... My question is 'why?' What made Humans first look up, rather than down, at the world around them?
I don't want to say 'you were taught wrong', but I will say that the saying goes "there's more than one way to skin a cat", and it should be noted that the same approach is not always going to work for each situation...
So by that rationale, Starfleet should ground its ships just incase of anti-matter containment failure... (Afterall, that was what destroyed the Valkyrie
I can assure you with certainty that it will not be seen to fail
Vietnam veterans were seriously shat on by the American public when returning home... Even today in the UK, opinions tend to be either unquestioning respect, or abject loathing for barely literate trigger-happy monkeys (and with many folks having a somewhat mixed opinion which is a little of both)
It's not a matter of judging someone by appearance, but by their demonstration of ability to follow societal norms, which the Hampton University blurb explains very clearly as being a crucial part of the education process...
Which part? Tactics don't need to be any more or any less complex than plot dictates, and, as before, had the writers of Voyager wanted to show a smart Kazon, they could have done so...
I really don't think so...
I agree. As mentioned before, I found Pex irritating, so I stopped reading the story. As for her being 'penalised realistically', if she had been, then the plot would have been considerably different. That was not the story Shevet wanted to tell, and Shevet was under no obligation to introduce what you considered 'realistic penalisation', but you couldn't accept that and kept on complaining until they simply gave up wanting to continue telling the story. As gulberat mentioned on the thread, before it was closed, breaking someone's will to share like that was simply unforgivable. As a counterpoint, in Aftermath, you expressed surprise that Chanos was sentenced as harshly as he was, even though the sentencing was derived from current UCMJ guidelines. His sentence could, arguably, have been longer, had he been found guilty of negligent murder, and that was a decision I floated amongst other writers, so the decision was not simply my own, but a consensus. I guess all I'm trying to say there, is you complained that Pex was not realistically punished (and I do agree) but also expressed surprise when Chanos was realistically punished and held to account for his error in judgement...
Don't forget, the economics shown in episodes of Trek, primarily related to closed systems of life aboard a ship. DS-9 brought more 'everyday' examples into play. It also established in canon, the Bank of Bolius. Bolius is a Federation member, so there is canon precedent for a Federation world to used currency-based economics (and if one Federation world does so, it stands that others might also do so...)
Ergo not worth my time to write (and equally, not my place to reshape canon races in my own image, until I am writing for Trek in some official manner) I will admit to sometimes stretching canon rules on occasion, but for the most part, I attempt to keep my writing within what has been canonically established (however tenuously)
And as for your statement that the Kazon are not sentient, that is simply intellectual snobbery and racist elitism. They might not be the best educated, but they are indeed sentient beings.
And while that may indeed be accurate, it's just your own headcanon...
Shevet explained their decision about Pex, but you never accepted it. Patrick explained the MV economics, but you didn't accept that either... There's little point in giving an explanation if it's not going to be accepted. As jonsills pointed out the other day when I pointed out the Talaxian pilots who helped Paris retake Voyager, and you then turned round and said it wasn't a particularly difficult challenge, because it was against the Kazon... That's just shifting the goalposts...
I don't believe Shevet expected nonstop glowing reviews, but I suspect they expected that once they explained their thoughts on Pex, that you would have the courtesy to accept that and stop, rather than continuing to assume your critique was constructive/helpful/welcome, when it clearly was not.
Uh, yes, because the boldened text is purely your headcanon hypothesis. It is directly contradicted by the canon, so futile to discuss it (your hypothesis)
No worries, I appreciate that the written word can lose intended tone and context :cool:
Which I think basically sums up the entire issue with Voyager's writing as a whole: missed opportunities to develop...
I find black women eye-searingly ugly*... Still not a racist sentiment?
*For the record, I don't, I'm just illustrating a point
Only possibly?
Doctor: "I've extracted 82% of the Borg hardware."
Yet she still had whatever piece a plot required her to have... So I would say definitely possible that a smart Kazon could have been seen had the writers actually bothered to write one... Thinking about it, given how Kes had been captured by the Kazon-Ogla, and Neelix was living in an orbital junkyard, would have made more sense had his character actually been a Kazon living on the surface who had befriended Kes, rather than a Talaxian living in a floating junkyard, or, even as an additional character, a (smart)Kazon guide (who showed the same kind of gumption as Kes) who chose to leave, and would likely have been more useful than Neelix...
Absolutely so, but what if they don't have access to better educational facilities or better resources? This comes down to the kind of social mobility seen in America/England. While someone can improve their lot and become a self-made millionaire (I actually know someone who has achieved this in the UK) not everyone has the connections or opportunities to actually realise their potential. I'm not saying "can't win, don't try," but I am saying that for some, "winning" simply isn't in the cards, and they're never going to get beyond a certain level, and this is very much how I view the Kazon. Humanity was helped (ish) into the galactic sandbox by the Vulcans. Had the Kazon been similarly mentored (or better still, mentored by a species which wasn't trying to keep them down as the Vulcans tried to do) after their liberation over the Trabe, they might have faired better, but of course, that's pure speculation...
How many people from her time did she interact with other than Zefram?
And thanks for the recommendation, I'll check it out when time allows :cool:
But seriously, is there any evidence AGAINST my idea? Uh...
Look, if you don't want to conform to the societal mold, that's your right and it's other people's duty to accept that*. Same as it's only polite to ask for pronouns.
*Criminal cases not included. Jonsills said it better.
Weather, the sky being more interesting than the ground...but I will note, that many cultures have legends about the Earth and its interior just as varied as those legends of the sky. Hmmm. Valid. I'll definitely keep that in mind. No, they just keep multiple backups on every ship, just in case.
Of course, those backups tend to fail because space BS, which is why we have drama. Pity, that guy needs to be humbled at least as much as Three does*.
*Since Three is only an imitation of sentience, she can't really BE humbled, and learning from her mistakes is...a complicated thing. Long story. Huh. Guess it's a societal thing I haven't experienced. I've read about that sort of thing, but wasn't sure how much of an exaggeration it was--I mean, look how much of a hero that racist monster Columbus is. See above. And not doing so was lazy writing, turning their "space Crips" into a bunch of one-note stupid thugs. I'm saying that Chanos was an otherwise-competent officer who made one error in a high-stress situation (likely with added emotional baggage). Frankly, all he had to go on was a sensor blip...which is exactly what Lulu had when she left the Ensign alone in the cell.
It was an error, and one that another officer might have avoided (by beaming the medical team DOWN instead of beaming Siri up, for example), but it was an error that was understandable.
Also, I'm a civilian pacifist. I don't know much of military justice beyond what I've read of the Romulan breed.
As for my criticism--it is never intended to harm. I offer criticism solely to praise people for a job well done or to poke holes in their writing, and if they take it as a personal attack, that's on them.
Writers are held to a different standard than regular people, because everything that is written is PERMANENT. Every story that, say, objectifies women (think ENT or Seven's outfits) contributes to a culture of objectification. If I say something offensive in writing, that's permanent. Ergo, my feelings as a writer are of less importance than the feelings of others, and frankly I have a duty to not be hurt when people criticize my writing.
Same with TV announcers and personalities, or radio talk show hosts. Nobody cares if Joe Bloggs says something racist in public (besides those around him being disgusted), but everybody cares if Bill Hannity does that because his holo-show reaches trillions. Does it have to be currency, though? Non-replicated items are likely prized in the Federation, especially art and such. I generally understand banking in the Federation core worlds as being a thing for art and artifacts. Really? Every sentient creature on earth (including possible sentients like dolphins), and many nonsentients are capable of the pincer maneuver. The Kazon are not.
The Kazon are incapable of doing something that fish can do. That doesn't strike me as a species capable of coherent thought.
Look, it's partly me being snarky and hyperbolic but also partly the objective fact that the Kazon could not perform the literally most basic tactical maneuver in existence without outside assistance. That was so bad that it broke my suspension of disbelief.
Also, AU fics, man. They are a thing and a popular thing. Yes, and?
This was just something I mentioned to point out that I am capable of imaging the Kazon as something other than barely-sentient thugs. Well, no, it's not. Again, pincer maneuver.
I will admit that the Talaxians are capable of the simplest task in the universe (defeating the Kazon with comparable or superior tech), but honestly that isn't saying much.
Patrickngo did offer a very nice and reasoned explanation for the MV's economics, I just found it rooted in an inherently pessimistic view of humanity that I can't buy. Call it a fundamental disconnect because we're working from different starting points. ...it's my job as a reviewer to point out when someone's writing an annoying character. If they can't take that, that's there problem.
Have you ever seen me react negatively to a bad review? Sure, I'll explain my reasoning, but I accept that that won't change many people's minds. That's how I'm supposed to be, as a writer. If I let bad reviews hurt me, I go nowhere and I cease to develop.
My point being, authors shouldn't think of reviews as anything other than commentary on their work. Taking reviews personally can only end badly. I disagree that it is so directly contradicted, but fine, it's just a headcanon anyway. Which I think is the root issue here, because I'm only trying to help. Agreed. No. I find most supermodels to be appallingly thin and unhealthy. Finding a particular physical trait or traits unattractive is not racist. Remember what I said about lazy writing, and what you said about missed opportunities? I disagree. Look at the Tau'ri from SG-1. They're still decent people by the time they get actually helpful interstellar allies, despite every evil overlord in the quadrant trying to kill them all and/or beat them down.
Not the best example, but my point is that people with potential and drive will see it through no matter the situation. 1. Leaving politely but swiftly.
2. Calling him a racist jerk.
3. Calling him a foolish racist jerk.
You do have a point. But again, I'm an optimist, and if a drunk jerk like Cochrane could value her opinion and assistance...
Unless someone is being *paid* to write, or is preparing a submission with the *expressly stated intention* of being paid, or someone *specifically* asks for unfettered criticism, then it is not your place to shred an author to pieces. You ought to assume that absolute politeness is required and that negative remarks should be kept brief, polite, and NOT repeated, and that if a person will not change what they are doing or otherwise does not agree, you will either be quiet or walk away if you cannot find anything to do other than criticize.
Quite simply, non-professional works, even if at near-pro quality, are NOT done with the same detached and businesslike mindset that someone must by nature adopt in order to publish for money. This is actually part of the reason I have stayed out of the formal publishing world for the most part. I cannot detach from my writing sufficiently to do the kind of ruthless slashing or have others do the same--and I recognize the reality that it IS part of the formal publishing industry and know that I should not ask the industry to change for me.
But fanfic is NOT part of the publishing industry unless you are writing for Pocket Books under contract. For anyone doing fanfic--by nature unpublishable for money, it is a fact that it therefore should not be treated the same as a professional work and the authors should NOT have the expectation of being subject to the same harsh treatment.
If you are *paying* someone, whether you have personally commissioned them, or you are purchasing their product off the shelf, then they do have to accept criticism at a level much beyond any nonprofessional (but even then, without being a flaming jerk about it) and must modify their product to sell if what they are doing is unmarketable or in the case of a personal commission, not satisfying you.
Otherwise, you must back off. It is NOT the same as professional work and you must assume that harsh, repetitive criticism, and any attempts to force someone else to conform with your wishes (which you did) is wholly and completely unacceptable. And if the point is not agreed to the first time, drop it and walk away. You are DONE, and any more can justifiably be construed as harassment and if it is, you are wholly and singularly liable and the victim is NOT to be blamed in any form or fashion for their justifiable hurt and anger.
That is a tactic too often used by bullies that you yourself have pointed out as wrong under other circumstances and it is wrong to apply a different standard to yourself than the one you apply to others. You are fully and completely responsible for the results of your behavior on others. You cannot deflect it onto someone else to absolve yourself of your own words and actions.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Everybody is equal, and if I am to write and publish that work where other people can see it is is only right that I be held to the same standards as professional writers are*. I accept criticism and criticize others with this concept in mind; frankly, I'm surprised that nobody's criticized me more harshly.
If other people choose to take my remarks personally...it's on them. I don't intend to hurt, I simply intend to point out problems and offer possible solutions. Sometimes, there will be a fundamental disconnect between me and an author or reviewer. That happens. I've had that happen before and it'll happen again. No reason to change the rules, or to stop expanding upon the argument in the hopes of finding common ground.
I know that I'm not the best writer, but that's no reason not to hold me or anyone else to the highest standard of making sense and avoiding Unfortunate Implications. The alternative, of course, is cases like those awful fifty shades books that glorify sexual assault being published. Or Stephen Moffat being put in charge of a show. Or Berman and Braga.
*Unfortunately not a very high standard, given that people paid money for those horrible fifty shades of abuse books, but it's still a STANDARD.
Also, this....
...is flat-out wrong. It is not anyone's "duty" to accept you. It may be a particular person's (or group's) responsibility to accept you, because they love you - but most of humanity doesn't love you. Most of humanity doesn't know who you are, doesn't care, and isn't going to have any patience with your status as a Special Snowflake Who Feels He Needs Catered To.
It isn't nice, it isn't fair, it may or may not even be right - but it is real. As a scientist, you should be prepared to deal with the universe as it presents itself, rather than as you would like it to be. The other way around is just poor science.
Just not consuming the product only works if it's been published for money. Don't watch VOY and its ratings will drop, don't buy awful fifty whatever books and hopefully they'll go away...but for fanfiction? The only option is reviews. And it's the reader's responsibility to provide feedback, that's the only way the writer will grow. If that was your impression, then I wish you had told me. Repeatedly.
I like being told when I'm TRIBBLE up. Can't learn without it. Hell, half of science is TRIBBLE up and being wrong; if you don't TRIBBLE up and don't discover how you're going wrong you can't really learn anything.
On Three specifically: I'm frankly bored with the character and waiting for the chance to kill it off. And if you think that it's in any way a decent person...dude, it's evil. I use it to poke holes in the sheer stupidity of the Fed intro, game backstory, and Instant Admiral thing. It's a mass-murdering psychopath that gets off primarily on the Janeway Principle. Just like my Instant Admiral murdered xir way to level 60 one man and ship at a time, frequently under dubious circumstances (although I will admit that it's slightly less bad now that Divide et Impera has been removed). If you think that it is in any way a model for good, appropriate, or otherwise non-evil behavior or stable relationships with real sentient beings...dude, it's a monster. It's a monster that literally cannot stop itself from doing whatever a specific set of people tell it to. It's a thing designed to imitate sentience and horrify people.
You can take it another way, and that is your right. If I were still writing the character, I would be more than happy to receive advice on how I was mishandling the character. Because to do otherwise, to be hurt and insulted by such comments...I can't even comprehend that. Nice ad hominem. More importantly...
Society sucks, I know that.
However, identity...identity is IMPORTANT. Not accepting someone's identity is wrong. Special Snowflake whatever aside, if you are something, society SHOULD accept you.
It won't, because it sucks. But it should.