Someone who believes that if his computer connects to his fiberoptic ISP, therefore all connections all the way to Cryptic are golden and any lag must of necessity be at their servers and they need to fix it NAOW!!
I presume he waits until the last moment to leave for work (or possibly school) because if traffic is clear outside his house, there can't possibly be any traffic jams anywhere else.
Shut Up Shut Up Shut Up Shut Up Shut Up Please Shut The Heck Up Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Your Very Action Is Taking Years Off My Life Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Also What The Heck Are You Trying To Do Saying Swtor Story Is Anything Like Trek. Warp Lizard Babies Is Better Wrote Than Anything That Game.
Okay now that I read the OP and the premise for this thread here goes:
I don't give a rats whiskers about high DPS'ers and the fact they can make the rest of a pug look bad or make it boring; I don't give a pair of Dingos kidneys about the low DPS'ers and their b***h whining that they can't or won't catch up!
Unless something is obviously broken like an ability doesn't work when clicked just shut up or ship out :mad:
Why do people hate Tovan Khev? Why do people hate the Kobali? THEY'RE GREAT PEOPLE!! TOVAN AT LEAST ACTS FU*KING HUMAN!!
I think that's part of the problem. Tovan ISN'T "fu*king human". He's a fu*king alien - a Romulan, to be exact. (On the other tentacle, most folks seem to hate him because he has Romulan Operative, but not Superior Romulan Operative, which makes a very tiny difference. Personally, I like him - he gives me a roleplaying hook for all my Roms, from Nniol tr'Keiniadh, who likes Tovan because he doesn't ask a lot of questions about the past, to my newest, Aeiell t'Shael, who once considered Tovan as a possible mate, until they both decided they were better friends than lovers.)
The Kobali are basically the Zombie Horde, repurposing the corpses of the dead of other species to make more of their own. (I'm of the opinion that the Kobali per se are extinct, and the beings we think of as "Kobali" today are in fact sapient retroviral colonies that rewrite their host bodies to resemble their old creators, but that's totally headcanon at the moment.)
My version of Tovan has an attitude, and does not have the discipline of an actual military officer, but because of remaining anti-Reman prejudice, I felt a Romulan man willing to ignore nasty comments, looks, and innuendos to serve subordinate to a Reman female was going to have an attitude and major case of don't-give-a-frak-itis about some of the finer "niceties" of society, especially since he thinks some of those established proprieties (like not being friends with a Reman) are just garbage anyway and he's not afraid to put his life on the line for it. This does also make him hot-tempered, liable to mouth off in situations where he shouldn't, and sometimes headstrong and not always making the right decisions for the long term and needing to be reined in by his captain (one of the few he respects enough to actually take a warning to curb his hotheadedness seriously).
So for me it all tied together into a neat little package that actually worked for my captain and my Tovan both: a high-strung, hot-tempered man who also doesn't care about BS excuses to discriminate and kill others, and is unswervingly loyal to the rare few he actually gives his loyalty to even if people try to attack or mock her or him for it. Anyone else--well, they don't want to get on his bad side.
Personally, I liked the character possibilities inherent in Tovan's volatile nature, and the fact that sometimes he made wrong decisions or misplaced his priorities and needed to be reined in from time to time. These types of people occur in real life, too...heck, St. Peter is a great example of this low-born, rough-around-the-edges background, prone to bursts of passion and sometimes violent temper and putting the short term ahead of the long term or sometimes just flat out failing to do the right thing sometimes. But like St. Peter, there's still a lot for me to like about Tovan and that loyalty he has ultimately sets him right.
As far as the Kobali, I despise their actions but would not allow genocide to be committed against them, and believe there is a possibility of negotiation but I would give them harder terms than seen in game if they want my help.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Vranuk was a representitive from Crataris coming to negotiate trade with Virinat. He and Tovan became freinds during the two months Vranuk was there. BONUS: Veril is Vranuk's wife
R'Tath grew up on Romulus with Tovan. while Tovan got off before the Hobus disaster R'Tath got off at the last second and he took a few scars and burns. NOTE: R'Tath wanted Rinna back as much as Tovan because they were engaged when the Tal Shiar attacked Virinat
Ta'eth was born and raised off-world and her family finally found a home on Virinat. She and Tovan are in the freind zone. NOTE: Ta'eth swore vengence on the Tal Shiar because her mother and two brothers died and she watched her father die on Station Alpha from a rare side effect from the Elachi virus.
To be honest Tovan is pretty much the same guy to each toon. But nice how gulberat portrays him differantly
Captain Joseph Riker, U.S.S. Odyssey==General V'Mar, U.S.S. Blackwater-A==Admiral Laura Holmes, U.S.S. Forward Unto Dawn Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
That's another pretty baseless complaint some folks have about Tovan - "he doesn't act like a military officer! He's insubordinate!"
Well, that's because he's not a military officer; he's a wrench-jockey from Virinat's starport who just happens to be an acquaintance of the PC as the story opens. I'm not entirely sure why he's a Tac officer - he should be an Engineer, given his backstory.
Even though there are three paragraphs there, I can't help but feel like I'm looking at three walls of text...so I guess I'm glad there's not a fourth and I can make a run for it.
Even though there are three paragraphs there, I can't help but feel like I'm looking at three walls of text...so I guess I'm glad there's not a fourth and I can make a run for it.
makes me wonder what happened to thecosmic1.. he usually eats those "I know it better, this is stupid" for breakfast.
[War] is instinctive. But the instinct can be fought. We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands! But we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers ... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill today!
Sociologically, the Moabite Confederacy isn't even as far along as Kirk's Federation - they've been invaded by the Fek, been a Klingon protectorate, been on the front lines at Goralis and Betazed, had a brief tussle with the Pentaxians, and now are handling their own uncivil war, abetted by certain corrupt elements in Starfleet (that unknowingly take their orders from an Undine*). Kian let her molester live, despite her combat training. I'd say that puts her on equal footing with Jim up there.
And as Jim points out, sure, the Feds have a couple of centuries of civilization under their belts - but for Humans, that competes with somewhere around half a billion years of evolution, during which being "civilized" meant you were prey. We're getting better, but four hundred years hence we're still going to have deviants like Hill. And, as Niven shows in one of his Known Space short stories (a paranoid who didn't know his autodoc had run out of his meds), until someone notices and reports the deviance there's nothing to be done about it. Everyone else Hill had groped dealt with it in a "civilized" fashion, by cringing and pretending to ignore it. Kian was the first one he'd attacked who was "uncivilized" enough to fight back, which brought his behavior to official attention. Once they knew about it, you'll notice they had no trouble ordering him to obtain counseling now.
And if you think that a post-scarcity society won't result in a subclass of people who'd just as soon sit on their butts and eat the dole - well, I commend to your attention Philip Jose Farmer's "Riders of the Purple Wage", William Gibson's Count Zero (the earlier parts, about Bobby's mother the simstim addict), or a simple survey of modern sociology. There are those who will become dissatisfied with merely existing, and will seek to live - but there are also those for whom merely existing satisfies all their evolutionarily-determined needs, and who will happily sit in the warm glow of the holocube sucking down their three Big Meals a day from the replicator. Most governments actually prefer those citizens, as they're unlikely to ever become unhappy - or if they ever become unhappy, to act upon it. It's the ones who want to be more than this who wind up agitating for change, and rocking the proverbial boat...
Jonsills, I agree that Kian's reaction was entirely reasonable given local cultural norms, if a liiiiitle restrained given her own history.
My beef is with how Hill's behavior is portrayed as grudgingly tolerated by the other commuters right up until Kian kicks his butt.
On the other point, I disagree pretty heavily.
First off, I've only ever encountered two genuinely lazy people in my entire life; my uncle Eric, who isn't so much lazy as untalented and with a bad head for money, and his ex's cousin Cooter (yes, really), who is...well, he blames the Guvmint for everything and thinks that Teh TRIBBLE are spying on him through his TV antenna. Doesn't stop him from watching Faux News, tho.
Anyway. Speaking from personal experience, if I had nothing to do I'd MAKE something to do, the harder the better. I cannot believe that a significant fraction of any population would voluntarily sit and watch TV all day every day; that'd be beyond boring. Worst-case scenario, I can see a lot of semi-professional hologamers forming a sort of futuristic PVP MMO thing on the holodecks, but I can't imagine people sitting around and doing nothing all day long. It's just...alien. I am incapable of comprehending the idea of doing nothing but eat and watch brain-melting TV. I'd go insane in 3 hours of that.
I disagree, Picard was the type to help anyone who needed it.
Actually, Picard was quite happy to cite the Prime Directive and sit back and do nothing when people needed help, such as Sarjenka's people, or the Klingon civil war... He only helped Sarjenka's people because of emotioonal blackmail from his senior officers (and because to do otherwise wouldn't've been much of a story ) His interests were decidedly highbrow, and even his own brother accused him of snobbery and having a superiority complex... No chhance he'd tolerate a Benefit Monkey, not what he told Lily about why folks worked in the 24th Century...
Definitely they wouldn't tolerate institutionalized resource restriction.
I disagree, and don't think they'd tolerate resources being freely given to people not pulling their weight, regardless of how limitless those resources are.
.Hey, the US government is a POS, as is most of our upper class; there's a reason people prefer cockroaches, lice, Genghis Khan, paedos, and a hypothetical Communist takeover of the US to Congress.
Exactly, and so's he... I'm just pointing out that double-dealing is historically a typical behaviour amongst people of Lucas' social class. And that even if that is what he does, he is still 'going out doing a job' rather than just sitting on public welfare (or sitting in a vault with bikini-clad sack chasers tossing slips of latinum around like something in a rap video )
As for Lucas...Huh, I always pegged him as the sleazy executive type with a "secretary" whose job it is to be his, ah, "escort". Well, I can't wait to see his d*ckishness return. *insert grin smiley here*
No, he treats her very well, but as you'll see in a couple of chapters, for those who do TRIBBLE him off, the gloves come off bigtime...
Hill wasn't, but either you or patrickngo said above that that behavior would not elicit a reaction similar to Kian's in 25th-century San Francisco, which as I have detailed above is ridiculous.
The Federation may not be a perfect utopia, but it's not the barbaric hell-hole we've got to suffer through today. Um, better metaphor...
Earth under the UFP in 2412 is to modern America and Europe as modern America and Europe are to France during the wars of religion.
Light-years more progressive in religious tolerance, women's rights, racial tolerance and gender relations. You just can't apply the most toxic ingrained cultural norms of 20th/21st century American cities to 25th century Earth.
That's why I say that Kian's reaction is entirely justified, if perhaps a little more...military than a regular commuter's "GTFOO me" and shove.
Jonsills has already addressed this point better than I could, and what he's said is exactly the case :cool:
My beef is with how Hill's behavior is portrayed as grudgingly tolerated by the other commuters right up until Kian kicks his butt.
But it wasn't tolerated. They reported the incidents to the authorities, they just didn't get physical about it, because as pointed out, that's not how civilized people react... Arguably, had he tried that s**t on Alix, she'd be as likely to ram the heel of her stilleto in his eye, then fix her makeup, because that b*tch had issues
[QUOTE=worffan101;22701031 I can't imagine people sitting around and doing nothing all day long. It's just...alien. I am incapable of comprehending the idea of doing nothing but eat and watch brain-melting TV. I'd go insane in 3 hours of that.[/QUOTE]
You might be surprized just how much 'nothing' someone with a poor work ethic can accomplish in a day...
Actually, Picard was quite happy to cite the Prime Directive and sit back and do nothing when people needed help, such as Sarjenka's people, or the Klingon civil war... He only helped Sarjenka's people because of emotioonal blackmail from his senior officers (and because to do otherwise wouldn't've been much of a story ) His interests were decidedly highbrow, and even his own brother accused him of snobbery and having a superiority complex... No chhance he'd tolerate a Benefit Monkey, not what he told Lily about why folks worked in the 24th Century...
Sarjenka was season 2, and that was run by Maurice Hurley. You know, the guy who thought that r*ping Troi with an alien space thing was a brilliant piece of drama and who created Pulaski, a character who managed to insult every good thing on the ship in her first episode?
I don't consider any actions characters took under Hurley's tenure canon if they are contradicted by later canon. Because Hurley was a toxic moron.
Klingon civil war...Gonna have to rewatch that episode, but IIRC it LOOKED like an internal matter, and interfering in that on the wrong side could have obliterated the Khitomer Accords. Only once Romulan involvement was confirmed was interference absolutely necessary and warranted.
I disagree, and don't think they'd tolerate resources being freely given to people not pulling their weight, regardless of how limitless those resources are.
There are limitless resources, ergo no weight to be pulled. That's the problem, you're applying theories for scarce-resource economies to an economy without scarcity, at least for 98% of goods and services.
Exactly, and so's he... I'm just pointing out that double-dealing is historically a typical behaviour amongst people of Lucas' social class. And that even if that is what he does, he is still 'going out doing a job' rather than just sitting on public welfare (or sitting in a vault with bikini-clad sack chasers tossing slips of latinum around like something in a rap video )
...isn't he currently hiding somewhere in his undies replicating his urine into chicken wings?
Jonsills has already addressed this point better than I could, and what he's said is exactly the case :cool:
Awfully pessimistic of you, and IMHO not held up by the evidence.
I mean, look at America from 1875-1900. Is the last 25 years of American history objectively better than that?
Yes.
We're still invading and abusing, we've still got oversized, overpowered businesses using the capitalist system to TRIBBLE over poor people, but we DO have a regulatory system to reign in business, human rights laws to constrain us from going quite so overboard with other countries, legally-enforced racial equality (it's not perfect, but it's a LOT better than what we had before), legally-enforced voting rights for all citizens (again, MUCH better than what we had), and we've actually sort of mostly apologized to the Native Americans for f*cking them over.
We are kind of objectively better than we were about a century ago.
And...well, again, I'm an optimist. I can't agree with jonsills, I can't see us stagnating that much, especially with heavy Vulcan influence and the gender-egalitarian Andorian culture alongside them.
But it wasn't tolerated. They reported the incidents to the authorities, they just didn't get physical about it, because as pointed out, that's not how civilized people react... Arguably, had he tried that s**t on Alix, she'd be as likely to ram the heel of her stilleto in his eye, then fix her makeup, because that b*tch had issues
You might be surprized just how much 'nothing' someone with a poor work ethic can accomplish in a day...
1. If the incidents were reported, in this oh-so-civilized society, why the f*ck did they not have the victims do a face rec and then go pay the guy a visit???????
Also, "that's not how civilized people do things" is weak. D'trel's civilized; she summarily executes serial war criminals. Joh'Kghan's civilized, and her culture demands that she eat fresh-caught raw meat for her meals. "Civilized" can mean anything from the Inca Empire to Airstrip One (from 1984). It can mean anything from the San people of Africa to the Klingon Empire to the Federation to indigenous South Americans...
"Civilized" can mean anything, any society of sentient beings with a culture and social norms (i.e. any society of sentient beings that's existed for longer than a couple of months) is civilized.
/rant
tl;dr: I just...can't agree.
Second point: I guess I would, because I can't imagine doing nothing all day. It's just...I can understand Cthulhu, better than I can understand that.
Anyway. Speaking from personal experience, if I had nothing to do I'd MAKE something to do, the harder the better. I cannot believe that a significant fraction of any population would voluntarily sit and watch TV all day every day; that'd be beyond boring. Worst-case scenario, I can see a lot of semi-professional hologamers forming a sort of futuristic PVP MMO thing on the holodecks, but I can't imagine people sitting around and doing nothing all day long. It's just...alien. I am incapable of comprehending the idea of doing nothing but eat and watch brain-melting TV. I'd go insane in 3 hours of that.
Congratulations! (And that's not sarcasm - I mean it.) You're part of the useful portion of society, the ones that either get co-opted by the officials or become the disruptive influences every society needs.
You're young yet, though - you'll find more and more people in the world like Uncle Eric and Cooter. Well, usually not so delusional, but evolutionarily we've been rewarded for being lazy where possible, and it'll take more than a few centuries of the Enlightenment to overcome that. Maybe by the 31st century, some progress in that direction will start to be made...
Congratulations! (And that's not sarcasm - I mean it.) You're part of the useful portion of society, the ones that either get co-opted by the officials or become the disruptive influences every society needs.
You're young yet, though - you'll find more and more people in the world like Uncle Eric and Cooter. Well, usually not so delusional, but evolutionarily we've been rewarded for being lazy where possible, and it'll take more than a few centuries of the Enlightenment to overcome that. Maybe by the 31st century, some progress in that direction will start to be made...
Well...at least among carbosilicate amorphs. Sergeant Schlock is certainly very...proactive.
Especially in assassineation.
Anyway...I always figured I was one of the pack. I just...well, everyone I know actually tries (well, except for Cooter, but he's afraid that the color pink will infect him with TRIBBLE demons, so I think we can discount him) to do stuff. Even Uncle Eric, he tries, he's just not terribly bright, skilled, or good with money (though in his defense he's gotten better with the first two more recently). In a society without scarcity, Uncle Eric would probably be just another low-level tech doing replicator maintenance for Chief O'Brien, or maybe just a replicator repairman on Earth, and he'd be happy with that.
I just can't comprehend people who act like the Talaxians, and don't even try. That means that they just don't care, not even about life.
I am incapable of comprehending the idea of doing nothing but eat and watch brain-melting TV. I'd go insane in 3 hours of that.
Take a look at cable tv sometime. Yes you'd go insane-but you're not the typical citizen. (I'd guess that most of us here don't fit in that-but then, there are so many more that DO, it explains much of TV programming...)
if you want a reason why there would be an scarcity of resources-if you don't make people go out and WORK for the stuff they want, not need but want-then why would the majority of people ever leave the holosuites? just load your favorite program, have the replicator deliver your three squares and you're set. you end up with fitter versions of the humans from Wall-E. (being you have to move for holodecks) Yes you'd have your exceptions, but if you let everyone just have all they want-thats where you'd end up.
making wants, not needs, things harder to come by-forces people to actually get out and strive for things.
"It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion. And usually easier." R.A.Heinlein
D'trel's civilized; she summarily executes serial war criminals. Joh'Kghan's civilized, and her culture demands that she eat fresh-caught raw meat for her meals. "Civilized" can mean anything from the Inca Empire to Airstrip One (from 1984). It can mean anything from the San people of Africa to the Klingon Empire to the Federation to indigenous South Americans...
"Civilized" can mean anything, any society of sentient beings with a culture and social norms (i.e. any society of sentient beings that's existed for longer than a couple of months) is civilized.
That's why I kept putting "civilized" in quotes. The civilization of Earth in the 24th Century is demonstrably more, well, sedate than we know here, and more so than most of the others out there. However, how many people on Earth, out of however many billion, have even met an Andorian? Or a Vulcan, for that matter? They might "know" about those societies, but it's in the same sense that, say, a modern American might "know" about the traditions of certain regions of Africa, yet not comprehend how ebola could spread so easily among a civilized people. (Hint: It has to do with traditional funerary rites, and the spread has been contained in large part by changing those traditions.)
And that's also why the Klingons see Humans as weak, except those who've faced actively-pissed-off Humans in combat. The ideals promulgated by Earth look to Klingons like the behavior of victims, not warriors - to them, Earth isn't civilized. The same holds true for the more old-school Romulans, like D'trel or tr'Keiniadh; they could never stomach living by the rules of "civilized" Earth, it would be far too passive for them.
For that matter, you wouldn't last long in the "civilized" United States of, say, 150 years ago, unless you struck out for the frontier or were lucky enough to be born into privilege. They still had the social stratification they'd inherited from European colonists (something we're still working on getting rid of to this day), and if you were among the underclass you'd best not be getting "uppity". (The lowest classes in the US were the ones least in favor of abolition, because without slavery there wouldn't have been anyone lower than them on the ladder. Abolition was largely supported by the middle classes, and by the upper classes of the North - so long as those newly-freed slaves, I won't use the temporally-appropriate word, remembered their place.)
I would have had to head for the Rockies and tried to make a living as a trapper myself, or maybe gone hunting for gold in California or Alaska, because I wouldn't get on well in that "civilization" either. I'd wager that applies to rather a lot of people here; Trekkies as a whole seem to prefer a more even playing field.
Point is, "civilization" is a variable, not a constant, and contrary to popular opinion, it's not always on an "upward" trend, in part because folks disagree on what "upward" even means. (I have discussions in other places with people, honest and intelligent men, who believe that democracy is a weakness and all governments must eventually either turn toward monarchy or fall to internal corruption. We obviously disagree on what "upward" means.)
Take a look at cable tv sometime. Yes you'd go insane-but you're not the typical citizen. (I'd guess that most of us here don't fit in that-but then, there are so many more that DO, it explains much of TV programming...)
if you want a reason why there would be an scarcity of resources-if you don't make people go out and WORK for the stuff they want, not need but want-then why would the majority of people ever leave the holosuites? just load your favorite program, have the replicator deliver your three squares and you're set. you end up with fitter versions of the humans from Wall-E. (being you have to move for holodecks) Yes you'd have your exceptions, but if you let everyone just have all they want-thats where you'd end up.
making wants, not needs, things harder to come by-forces people to actually get out and strive for things.
I disagree.
I believe that the VAST majority of people would take the opportunity to go into medicine, science, art, writing, music, dance, history, architecture--whatever they wanted. I love WALL-E, but its view of humanity is a LOT darker than mine (the robots are adorable, though).
I guess this is a fundamental gulf, probably because I was homeschooled for most of my life and I've literally only ever met one person (who's frankly mentally unstable) who watches cable tv 24/7. I suppose that you guys have had more experiences with people like Cooter.
That's why I kept putting "civilized" in quotes. The civilization of Earth in the 24th Century is demonstrably more, well, sedate than we know here, and more so than most of the others out there. However, how many people on Earth, out of however many billion, have even met an Andorian? Or a Vulcan, for that matter? They might "know" about those societies, but it's in the same sense that, say, a modern American might "know" about the traditions of certain regions of Africa, yet not comprehend how ebola could spread so easily among a civilized people. (Hint: It has to do with traditional funerary rites, and the spread has been contained in large part by changing those traditions.)
Disagree. In STO, what we see of Earth is a cosmopolitan, practically alien-majority landscape (and that's not including the PCs). The President's a Saurian. Top Admirals are Vulcan, Betazoid, and Trill.
Also, Starfleet norms likely heavily influence Federation norms. Starfleet officers are heroes, celebrities; people try to imitate heroes and celebrities. When Spock and Kirk bring back their norms and the Enterprise's norms after ST IV, people are naturally going to act more like them, even unconsciously, because Spock and Kirk are heroes, and heroes are good people (at least in the public consciousness), and everyone wants to be a good person.
So no, I can't see 20th/21st century street sexism still being around in 2412.
And that's also why the Klingons see Humans as weak, except those who've faced actively-pissed-off Humans in combat. The ideals promulgated by Earth look to Klingons like the behavior of victims, not warriors - to them, Earth isn't civilized. The same holds true for the more old-school Romulans, like D'trel or tr'Keiniadh; they could never stomach living by the rules of "civilized" Earth, it would be far too passive for them.
Sure, I'll take that. Janeway's preachy faux-pacifist Federation would make D'trel punch it in the metaphorical face in seconds.
For that matter, you wouldn't last long in the "civilized" United States of, say, 150 years ago, unless you struck out for the frontier or were lucky enough to be born into privilege. They still had the social stratification they'd inherited from European colonists (something we're still working on getting rid of to this day), and if you were among the underclass you'd best not be getting "uppity". (The lowest classes in the US were the ones least in favor of abolition, because without slavery there wouldn't have been anyone lower than them on the ladder. Abolition was largely supported by the middle classes, and by the upper classes of the North - so long as those newly-freed slaves, I won't use the temporally-appropriate word, remembered their place.)
I would have had to head for the Rockies and tried to make a living as a trapper myself, or maybe gone hunting for gold in California or Alaska, because I wouldn't get on well in that "civilization" either. I'd wager that applies to rather a lot of people here; Trekkies as a whole seem to prefer a more even playing field.
Point is, "civilization" is a variable, not a constant, and contrary to popular opinion, it's not always on an "upward" trend, in part because folks disagree on what "upward" even means. (I have discussions in other places with people, honest and intelligent men, who believe that democracy is a weakness and all governments must eventually either turn toward monarchy or fall to internal corruption. We obviously disagree on what "upward" means.)
Yes...
I fail to see how this differs from what I said.
Civilization is a meaningless term at this point, but I feel that society and societal ethics are on an upward trend. Because again, I'm an optimist.
I believe that the VAST majority of people would take the opportunity to go into medicine, science, art, writing, music, dance, history, architecture--whatever they wanted. I love WALL-E, but its view of humanity is a LOT darker than mine (the robots are adorable, though).
I guess this is a fundamental gulf, probably because I was homeschooled for most of my life and I've literally only ever met one person (who's frankly mentally unstable) who watches cable tv 24/7. I suppose that you guys have had more experiences with people like Cooter.
That's probably it. I've been just about everywhere, been a soldier, experienced socialism first hand (note, the berlin wall wasnt there to keep people OUT of the Glorious workers paradise). It's one of those things that looks great on paper-untill you introduce humans into the equasion. then you get Comrade Snowball saying that while all animals are equal, some are more equal than others.
Feh, maybe I'm just old and cranky. Durn kids nowadays, get offa my lawn! (shakes cane) While I do like to think that your view is how people are-reality sadly is a different situation. All we can do is try to improve the best we can.
"It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion. And usually easier." R.A.Heinlein
Comments
I presume he waits until the last moment to leave for work (or possibly school) because if traffic is clear outside his house, there can't possibly be any traffic jams anywhere else.
If anyone sees me posting in the hugbox before the end of the month, could you do me a favor and remind me I don't want to engage the crazy? Thanks!
I don't give a rats whiskers about high DPS'ers and the fact they can make the rest of a pug look bad or make it boring; I don't give a pair of Dingos kidneys about the low DPS'ers and their b***h whining that they can't or won't catch up!
Unless something is obviously broken like an ability doesn't work when clicked just shut up or ship out :mad:
There I feel much better now.
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Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
The Kobali are basically the Zombie Horde, repurposing the corpses of the dead of other species to make more of their own. (I'm of the opinion that the Kobali per se are extinct, and the beings we think of as "Kobali" today are in fact sapient retroviral colonies that rewrite their host bodies to resemble their old creators, but that's totally headcanon at the moment.)
So for me it all tied together into a neat little package that actually worked for my captain and my Tovan both: a high-strung, hot-tempered man who also doesn't care about BS excuses to discriminate and kill others, and is unswervingly loyal to the rare few he actually gives his loyalty to even if people try to attack or mock her or him for it. Anyone else--well, they don't want to get on his bad side.
Personally, I liked the character possibilities inherent in Tovan's volatile nature, and the fact that sometimes he made wrong decisions or misplaced his priorities and needed to be reined in from time to time. These types of people occur in real life, too...heck, St. Peter is a great example of this low-born, rough-around-the-edges background, prone to bursts of passion and sometimes violent temper and putting the short term ahead of the long term or sometimes just flat out failing to do the right thing sometimes. But like St. Peter, there's still a lot for me to like about Tovan and that loyalty he has ultimately sets him right.
As far as the Kobali, I despise their actions but would not allow genocide to be committed against them, and believe there is a possibility of negotiation but I would give them harder terms than seen in game if they want my help.
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Vranuk was a representitive from Crataris coming to negotiate trade with Virinat. He and Tovan became freinds during the two months Vranuk was there. BONUS: Veril is Vranuk's wife
R'Tath grew up on Romulus with Tovan. while Tovan got off before the Hobus disaster R'Tath got off at the last second and he took a few scars and burns. NOTE: R'Tath wanted Rinna back as much as Tovan because they were engaged when the Tal Shiar attacked Virinat
Ta'eth was born and raised off-world and her family finally found a home on Virinat. She and Tovan are in the freind zone. NOTE: Ta'eth swore vengence on the Tal Shiar because her mother and two brothers died and she watched her father die on Station Alpha from a rare side effect from the Elachi virus.
To be honest Tovan is pretty much the same guy to each toon. But nice how gulberat portrays him differantly
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
Well, that's because he's not a military officer; he's a wrench-jockey from Virinat's starport who just happens to be an acquaintance of the PC as the story opens. I'm not entirely sure why he's a Tac officer - he should be an Engineer, given his backstory.
Well... I dont know about that...
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
/end bad joke
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SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
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makes me wonder what happened to thecosmic1.. he usually eats those "I know it better, this is stupid" for breakfast.
Sociologically, the Moabite Confederacy isn't even as far along as Kirk's Federation - they've been invaded by the Fek, been a Klingon protectorate, been on the front lines at Goralis and Betazed, had a brief tussle with the Pentaxians, and now are handling their own uncivil war, abetted by certain corrupt elements in Starfleet (that unknowingly take their orders from an Undine*). Kian let her molester live, despite her combat training. I'd say that puts her on equal footing with Jim up there.
And as Jim points out, sure, the Feds have a couple of centuries of civilization under their belts - but for Humans, that competes with somewhere around half a billion years of evolution, during which being "civilized" meant you were prey. We're getting better, but four hundred years hence we're still going to have deviants like Hill. And, as Niven shows in one of his Known Space short stories (a paranoid who didn't know his autodoc had run out of his meds), until someone notices and reports the deviance there's nothing to be done about it. Everyone else Hill had groped dealt with it in a "civilized" fashion, by cringing and pretending to ignore it. Kian was the first one he'd attacked who was "uncivilized" enough to fight back, which brought his behavior to official attention. Once they knew about it, you'll notice they had no trouble ordering him to obtain counseling now.
And if you think that a post-scarcity society won't result in a subclass of people who'd just as soon sit on their butts and eat the dole - well, I commend to your attention Philip Jose Farmer's "Riders of the Purple Wage", William Gibson's Count Zero (the earlier parts, about Bobby's mother the simstim addict), or a simple survey of modern sociology. There are those who will become dissatisfied with merely existing, and will seek to live - but there are also those for whom merely existing satisfies all their evolutionarily-determined needs, and who will happily sit in the warm glow of the holocube sucking down their three Big Meals a day from the replicator. Most governments actually prefer those citizens, as they're unlikely to ever become unhappy - or if they ever become unhappy, to act upon it. It's the ones who want to be more than this who wind up agitating for change, and rocking the proverbial boat...
My beef is with how Hill's behavior is portrayed as grudgingly tolerated by the other commuters right up until Kian kicks his butt.
On the other point, I disagree pretty heavily.
First off, I've only ever encountered two genuinely lazy people in my entire life; my uncle Eric, who isn't so much lazy as untalented and with a bad head for money, and his ex's cousin Cooter (yes, really), who is...well, he blames the Guvmint for everything and thinks that Teh TRIBBLE are spying on him through his TV antenna. Doesn't stop him from watching Faux News, tho.
Anyway. Speaking from personal experience, if I had nothing to do I'd MAKE something to do, the harder the better. I cannot believe that a significant fraction of any population would voluntarily sit and watch TV all day every day; that'd be beyond boring. Worst-case scenario, I can see a lot of semi-professional hologamers forming a sort of futuristic PVP MMO thing on the holodecks, but I can't imagine people sitting around and doing nothing all day long. It's just...alien. I am incapable of comprehending the idea of doing nothing but eat and watch brain-melting TV. I'd go insane in 3 hours of that.
I disagree, and don't think they'd tolerate resources being freely given to people not pulling their weight, regardless of how limitless those resources are.
Exactly, and so's he... I'm just pointing out that double-dealing is historically a typical behaviour amongst people of Lucas' social class. And that even if that is what he does, he is still 'going out doing a job' rather than just sitting on public welfare (or sitting in a vault with bikini-clad sack chasers tossing slips of latinum around like something in a rap video
No, he treats her very well, but as you'll see in a couple of chapters, for those who do TRIBBLE him off, the gloves come off bigtime...
Jonsills has already addressed this point better than I could, and what he's said is exactly the case :cool:
But it wasn't tolerated. They reported the incidents to the authorities, they just didn't get physical about it, because as pointed out, that's not how civilized people react... Arguably, had he tried that s**t on Alix, she'd be as likely to ram the heel of her stilleto in his eye, then fix her makeup, because that b*tch had issues
[QUOTE=worffan101;22701031 I can't imagine people sitting around and doing nothing all day long. It's just...alien. I am incapable of comprehending the idea of doing nothing but eat and watch brain-melting TV. I'd go insane in 3 hours of that.[/QUOTE]
You might be surprized just how much 'nothing' someone with a poor work ethic can accomplish in a day...
I don't consider any actions characters took under Hurley's tenure canon if they are contradicted by later canon. Because Hurley was a toxic moron.
Klingon civil war...Gonna have to rewatch that episode, but IIRC it LOOKED like an internal matter, and interfering in that on the wrong side could have obliterated the Khitomer Accords. Only once Romulan involvement was confirmed was interference absolutely necessary and warranted. There are limitless resources, ergo no weight to be pulled. That's the problem, you're applying theories for scarce-resource economies to an economy without scarcity, at least for 98% of goods and services. ...isn't he currently hiding somewhere in his undies replicating his urine into chicken wings? Aahhhh, You Have Failed Me, I see. *grinning smiley* Awfully pessimistic of you, and IMHO not held up by the evidence.
I mean, look at America from 1875-1900. Is the last 25 years of American history objectively better than that?
Yes.
We're still invading and abusing, we've still got oversized, overpowered businesses using the capitalist system to TRIBBLE over poor people, but we DO have a regulatory system to reign in business, human rights laws to constrain us from going quite so overboard with other countries, legally-enforced racial equality (it's not perfect, but it's a LOT better than what we had before), legally-enforced voting rights for all citizens (again, MUCH better than what we had), and we've actually sort of mostly apologized to the Native Americans for f*cking them over.
We are kind of objectively better than we were about a century ago.
And...well, again, I'm an optimist. I can't agree with jonsills, I can't see us stagnating that much, especially with heavy Vulcan influence and the gender-egalitarian Andorian culture alongside them.
1. If the incidents were reported, in this oh-so-civilized society, why the f*ck did they not have the victims do a face rec and then go pay the guy a visit???????
Also, "that's not how civilized people do things" is weak. D'trel's civilized; she summarily executes serial war criminals. Joh'Kghan's civilized, and her culture demands that she eat fresh-caught raw meat for her meals. "Civilized" can mean anything from the Inca Empire to Airstrip One (from 1984). It can mean anything from the San people of Africa to the Klingon Empire to the Federation to indigenous South Americans...
"Civilized" can mean anything, any society of sentient beings with a culture and social norms (i.e. any society of sentient beings that's existed for longer than a couple of months) is civilized.
/rant
tl;dr: I just...can't agree.
Second point: I guess I would, because I can't imagine doing nothing all day. It's just...I can understand Cthulhu, better than I can understand that.
You're young yet, though - you'll find more and more people in the world like Uncle Eric and Cooter. Well, usually not so delusional, but evolutionarily we've been rewarded for being lazy where possible, and it'll take more than a few centuries of the Enlightenment to overcome that. Maybe by the 31st century, some progress in that direction will start to be made...
Well...at least among carbosilicate amorphs. Sergeant Schlock is certainly very...proactive.
Especially in assassineation.
Anyway...I always figured I was one of the pack. I just...well, everyone I know actually tries (well, except for Cooter, but he's afraid that the color pink will infect him with TRIBBLE demons, so I think we can discount him) to do stuff. Even Uncle Eric, he tries, he's just not terribly bright, skilled, or good with money (though in his defense he's gotten better with the first two more recently). In a society without scarcity, Uncle Eric would probably be just another low-level tech doing replicator maintenance for Chief O'Brien, or maybe just a replicator repairman on Earth, and he'd be happy with that.
I just can't comprehend people who act like the Talaxians, and don't even try. That means that they just don't care, not even about life.
Take a look at cable tv sometime. Yes you'd go insane-but you're not the typical citizen. (I'd guess that most of us here don't fit in that-but then, there are so many more that DO, it explains much of TV programming...)
if you want a reason why there would be an scarcity of resources-if you don't make people go out and WORK for the stuff they want, not need but want-then why would the majority of people ever leave the holosuites? just load your favorite program, have the replicator deliver your three squares and you're set. you end up with fitter versions of the humans from Wall-E. (being you have to move for holodecks) Yes you'd have your exceptions, but if you let everyone just have all they want-thats where you'd end up.
making wants, not needs, things harder to come by-forces people to actually get out and strive for things.
"he's as dangerous as a ferret with a chainsaw."
And that's also why the Klingons see Humans as weak, except those who've faced actively-pissed-off Humans in combat. The ideals promulgated by Earth look to Klingons like the behavior of victims, not warriors - to them, Earth isn't civilized. The same holds true for the more old-school Romulans, like D'trel or tr'Keiniadh; they could never stomach living by the rules of "civilized" Earth, it would be far too passive for them.
For that matter, you wouldn't last long in the "civilized" United States of, say, 150 years ago, unless you struck out for the frontier or were lucky enough to be born into privilege. They still had the social stratification they'd inherited from European colonists (something we're still working on getting rid of to this day), and if you were among the underclass you'd best not be getting "uppity". (The lowest classes in the US were the ones least in favor of abolition, because without slavery there wouldn't have been anyone lower than them on the ladder. Abolition was largely supported by the middle classes, and by the upper classes of the North - so long as those newly-freed slaves, I won't use the temporally-appropriate word, remembered their place.)
I would have had to head for the Rockies and tried to make a living as a trapper myself, or maybe gone hunting for gold in California or Alaska, because I wouldn't get on well in that "civilization" either. I'd wager that applies to rather a lot of people here; Trekkies as a whole seem to prefer a more even playing field.
Point is, "civilization" is a variable, not a constant, and contrary to popular opinion, it's not always on an "upward" trend, in part because folks disagree on what "upward" even means. (I have discussions in other places with people, honest and intelligent men, who believe that democracy is a weakness and all governments must eventually either turn toward monarchy or fall to internal corruption. We obviously disagree on what "upward" means.)
I disagree.
I believe that the VAST majority of people would take the opportunity to go into medicine, science, art, writing, music, dance, history, architecture--whatever they wanted. I love WALL-E, but its view of humanity is a LOT darker than mine (the robots are adorable, though).
I guess this is a fundamental gulf, probably because I was homeschooled for most of my life and I've literally only ever met one person (who's frankly mentally unstable) who watches cable tv 24/7. I suppose that you guys have had more experiences with people like Cooter.
Also, Starfleet norms likely heavily influence Federation norms. Starfleet officers are heroes, celebrities; people try to imitate heroes and celebrities. When Spock and Kirk bring back their norms and the Enterprise's norms after ST IV, people are naturally going to act more like them, even unconsciously, because Spock and Kirk are heroes, and heroes are good people (at least in the public consciousness), and everyone wants to be a good person.
So no, I can't see 20th/21st century street sexism still being around in 2412. Sure, I'll take that. Janeway's preachy faux-pacifist Federation would make D'trel punch it in the metaphorical face in seconds.
Yes...
I fail to see how this differs from what I said.
Civilization is a meaningless term at this point, but I feel that society and societal ethics are on an upward trend. Because again, I'm an optimist.
That's probably it. I've been just about everywhere, been a soldier, experienced socialism first hand (note, the berlin wall wasnt there to keep people OUT of the Glorious workers paradise). It's one of those things that looks great on paper-untill you introduce humans into the equasion. then you get Comrade Snowball saying that while all animals are equal, some are more equal than others.
Feh, maybe I'm just old and cranky. Durn kids nowadays, get offa my lawn! (shakes cane)
"he's as dangerous as a ferret with a chainsaw."