Shame on you we all know the STFs are all jacked up and nothing, but fails for casual players.
It fails because idiots blow generators while trash is still up. If people stopped being so <expletive deleted> stupid there wouldn't be a problem. Cube --> generators --> transformer --> trash--> repeat. You can even do it with sub par damage if the mentally challenged communicated and coordinated to blow the generators at the same time like we did in the old days.
/grumble grumble. Darn new kids and your t6 ships. Back in my day we had to do stf's by hand. Ground and space were he same mission and we did it in galaxy class ships! /grabs cane and hobbles off
Ignorance is an obstacle not an excuse
Let the stupid suffer
It fails because idiots blow generators while trash is still up. If people stopped being so <expletive deleted> stupid there wouldn't be a problem. Cube --> generators --> transformer --> trash--> repeat. You can even do it with sub par damage if the mentally challenged communicated and coordinated to blow the generators at the same time like we did in the old days.
/grumble grumble. Darn new kids and your t6 ships. Back in my day we had to do stf's by hand. Ground and space were he same mission and we did it in galaxy class ships! /grabs cane and hobbles off
The point is there is more casual players than "know how captains".
Something has to give or the casual players will just keep leaving the game.
The point is there is more casual players than "know how captains".
Something has to give or the casual players will just keep leaving the game.
I'm a casual, but I'm pretty knowledgable with Science and not so bad with engineering, but I'll admit I don't know jack about tactical and escorts.
The issue isn't between "casual" and "know how"... the issue is the fact that people are lazy.
Let me say that again.
PEOPLE ARE LAZY.
People are going to take the path of least resistance... which means they're going to either a) not care and then cry when things don't go their way and expect someone else to do the work for them or b) they're going to come to the forums, find a cookie cutter build, build it then cry when things don't go their way and expect someone else to fix something that isn't broken.
Case in point, I can find any number of posts that'll show me how to build a scimitar. I can go into ISA with said super-dreadnaught and blow the entire mission because I ignore the cube, or I blow the generators before everyone is ready and then don't turn and take the trash mobs... or in other queues I ignore the Kang totally... or I hit my powers at the wrong time putting them on cool down when I need them...
So being lazy and not taking time to actually learn the game... it's easier for me to cry that the game is broken/too hard/science sucks... pretty much insert any number of crying things we see.
It doesn't help that people are so damn entitled today and expect that I started the game yesterday why can't I join ISE today and win and get all my shiney stuff and be super-uber...
Case in point... why people say "science sucks" when they just dont' want to put the time into it because they feel it should all be given to them.
This wouldn't really help a whole lot, as there were people who couldn't even handle old elites and, are still running around with the exact same builds + player skill set.
Up the difficulty any and, they are still failsauce just as they were prior to DR.
While it is true that many were way too over powered for the old elite, there is one thing to keep in mind. Even groups that were not that powerful could still have 2 pugs that were under powered, and struggle through to complete it.
Still, there will be a few that will just not be able to make it, unless there is a queue for them made between the normal, and subelite (also known as normal) we now have. Just like there are some that couldn't beat some of the episodes on elite before, those same few are having trouble with normal when there is a group of 5 of them in the group.
However, those are very few.
I was thinking about the casual players, and the many others that would like to play the game for fun, without needing to chase DPS, or make it much harder on the team because we are not chasing it.
If they used the old elite as a gauge, they should be able to set a max cap per individual hit. This will not mean a max cap per the entire queue. If so, then ones like Vortex, or Cure would never be able to finish.
The way it would work is the cap would be sit slightly above the total DPS needed to beat the queue in a sit amount of time under idea situations. So, if your beam arrays are limited to no more than 2,000 per hit, no matter how high of mark they are, then it will help balance it out more.
Also, the hp pool for advance can be brought back down. This will do a few things.
1-It will mean that the queues will take no less than a set amount of time to complete on Advanced, no matter how much DPS your ship can put out.
2-It will mean that the developers that are playing tug-a-war with the high PDS players will have no reason to do it anymore in Advanced queues.
3-It also means that the developers would be able to bring the Advanced queues back to a level they said they were going to have them at.
4-It will increase how many casual players are playing the queues.
5-It will make those queues more balanced for players not chasing DPS.
6-Having a tank, and healer would be more effective, instead of pointless like now.
7-It will encourage the high DPS players into the elite if they want to show off how powerful they are. (That is where they are suppose to do that anyways).
Before DR hit, it was said that the elite queues were suppose to be for those that want to test themselves, and push for the highest DPS. They even added better R&D rewards for them.
However, when ones that don't care about R&D TRIBBLE can just steam roll more advanced queses quicker, and end up getting more total rewards in the same amount of time than doing elite, the developers are going to keep playing tug-a-war with them.
High DPS players complete queued missions quicker than the developers want, and get more rewards than developers wanted them to, the developers will nerf rewards, or mess with the queues in some other way to try to control the high DPS players. Though, in doing so, they are hurting the ones that don't want to play the DPS game.
Why do you think the new Mirror grind event has a timer for the first part that cannot be shortened? When higher DPS players were finishing up early, and had 3 mins to just fly around, they made it harder. And that was on normal. Instead of just making it so that you could complete closing so many rifts to reduce the timer, they give more rifts, knowing that a lot of players were also running it on multiple characters.
They are in a constant state of trying to 1-up the DPS players in advanced queues, and that was what elite is for.
That is why the game has lost its enjoyment for a lot. So much focus on DPS, and so little on quality of play for not chasing it.
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I'm a casual, but I'm pretty knowledgable with Science and not so bad with engineering, but I'll admit I don't know jack about tactical and escorts.
The issue isn't between "casual" and "know how"... the issue is the fact that people are lazy.
Let me say that again.
PEOPLE ARE LAZY.
People are going to take the path of least resistance... which means they're going to either a) not care and then cry when things don't go their way and expect someone else to do the work for them or b) they're going to come to the forums, find a cookie cutter build, build it then cry when things don't go their way and expect someone else to fix something that isn't broken.
Case in point, I can find any number of posts that'll show me how to build a scimitar. I can go into ISA with said super-dreadnaught and blow the entire mission because I ignore the cube, or I blow the generators before everyone is ready and then don't turn and take the trash mobs... or in other queues I ignore the Kang totally... or I hit my powers at the wrong time putting them on cool down when I need them...
So being lazy and not taking time to actually learn the game... it's easier for me to cry that the game is broken/too hard/science sucks... pretty much insert any number of crying things we see.
It doesn't help that people are so damn entitled today and expect that I started the game yesterday why can't I join ISE today and win and get all my shiney stuff and be super-uber...
Case in point... why people say "science sucks" when they just dont' want to put the time into it because they feel it should all be given to them.
Took all that time over a defination, it's pretty clear we have different thoughts on player ranks.
Something has to give, players don't give they just go.
So go ahead and argue, disagree, say people should do this and that.
End of it all you cannot make people do anything.
Just because someone said lets make the game this way.
Doesn't mean people will like it or play heck they just might stop playing.
It wasn't optional before. The Nanite Probes getting to the Trans was a fail condition in ISN (still is) back before DR...just like the Nanite Spheres getting to the Trans was a fail condition in ISE back before DR. That didn't change with the introduction of ISA. Before DR, I had more ISN fails because of the Nanite Probes than I ever did with ISE and the Nanite Spheres.
Eh sry Virus, but when the transformer was healt before, the only thing that failed was the optional (and the hope of a short run). KASE and CSE had real fail-options though, same as HSE. ISE (and N) was the only STF where only the optional could fail without failing the mission itself.
6-Having a tank, and healer would be more effective, instead of pointless like now.
7-It will encourage the high DPS players into the elite if they want to show off how powerful they are. (That is where they are suppose to do that anyways)..
6. due to the enemy having more defense and thus can fire far longer in pugs a tank is quite welcome here. What you might want to take into consideration: A tank without dps is not a tank, but a failure, as it cant draw aggro. So tanks dont have any problem with HP-Gauges, since they have to do dps either way and -due to more hp- have an actual place in the team.
7. If we had Elite mission (korfez aside), we would play Elite. Unfortunately cryptic didnt feel the need to implement all missions on elite.
7. If we had Elite mission (korfez aside), we would play Elite. Unfortunately cryptic didnt feel the need to implement all missions on elite.
I think cryptic simply has a hard-timer with some of the PvE to get an elite mode.
Most of the missions like the Undine space ones or the Voth are miserably time gated. You know, even if you do the mission with awesome DPS it simply takes some time to do them and your rewards are limited that way.
The classic Borg space STF are a bit different there. Taking the discussion of this thread into account an elite mode would probably look that way: High DPS groups would deal with them in 3 minutes and get 2300 dil + mats + slavage while low DPS or inexperienced groups would struggle more than they already do and probably never see the reward at all.
Personally I think cryptic wants player to enjoy newer contend and we are lucky off that the old Borg STF did not share the same fate of No Win Scenario.
My Delta Toon may earn a lot of TRIBBLE next moth but the Kirks Protégé Title on top of the M.A.C.O. Operational armor I am unlikely to get.
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The classic Borg space STF are a bit different there. Taking the discussion of this thread into account an elite mode would probably look that way: High DPS groups would deal with them in 3 minutes and get 2300 dil + mats + slavage while low DPS or inexperienced groups would struggle more than they already do and probably never see the reward at all.
Elite is not meant for pugs or inexperienced or simply bad players. With the rest I dont see any problems.
Elite is not meant for pugs or inexperienced or simply bad players. With the rest I dont see any problems.
Sure you don't, neither do I ($$$). Question is just there if Cryptic has.
As far as meant for is concerned it is a matter of perspective considering that they are accessible for all.
As far as Pugs are concerned I tend to be more often surprised in a positive way as of late on elite maps especially in VCE, DRSE, NTTE. Much more than I am in ISA or ANRA.
The different maps themselves seem to have a major discrepancy in difficulty or rather "requirements". Much more than the difficulty setting itself provides. Whats meant for whom remains to be seen in my opinion.
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What many of you who berate the "casuals" seem to forget is how the game and how it's player patterns have changed over the years .
- For the first 2 years the only "endgame" was the 3 long Borg STF's and Terradome .
Players who you'd see as "casuals" complained then too about the difficulty (and length) of said STF'S , and there were plenty of teams that made it to Armek or Rebecca and fail hardcore (which is a whole lot less fun when you have an hour or more invested already in the mission) .
On the bright side , most of the player base ran with mixed teams and that supported weaker players getting better through practice and hands on examples of what to do .
- Then came F2P and the cutting up of the old Borg STF's into 15 minute "coffee break" runs while at the same time slowly introducing more powerful options into the game , in effect dumbing down of all the game's PVE content through power creep .
This had the effect of those who searched for power to make their separate channels , but it also had the effect of many players looking for the easiest STF's to run , this making the ground STF'S something of a rarity (as opposed to how many ISE got run) .
- And now we have DR , where things were made difficult again .
And putting aside the reasons for this change (to make you craft & spend Dil + cash) , one thing g that no longer is the same is the state of the player base .
We no longer hang out in Gamma Orianis calling for STF team in zone chat (and hoping for team mates who had put at least a few points in their Ground Specs) .
We are quite organised and segregated via fleets and chat channels, and that situation creates a perception difference between those who have reliable teams to run with and those who don't .
And said difference in perception is the key of the two groups not really understanding the in game experiences of the other group .
... which then leads to offensive and defensive posturing , with a side dish of presumption ...
Wasn't the fail condition for the old ISE not doing in 15 minutes?
Nope, the only "fail" encountered in the pre-DR elite as far as I recall mode was in CSE when the Kang got destroyed or 10 probes got through the vortex in KASA.
All other fails were due to players not being able to complete a mission and left map by themselves. (as in cant deactivate the reformer chain in CGE or cant kill Becca in IGA)
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Eh sry Virus, but when the transformer was healt before, the only thing that failed was the optional (and the hope of a short run). KASE and CSE had real fail-options though, same as HSE. ISE (and N) was the only STF where only the optional could fail without failing the mission itself.
Yeah, that's why I changed the font to black and quoted the bit from where I realized I was wrong later. I'll edit it and add another note at the start of the post to make sure folks realize the bit in black is wrong.
I'll argue with folks out the wahzoo...not because I need to be right, I just need the info to be right. If I'm wrong on something, I've got no problem with that...got no problem leaving proof that I was wrong there. Will usually edit the post to note that I was wrong like I tried to do there rather than hide that I was wrong...heh.
Sure you don't, neither do I ($$$). Question is just there if Cryptic has.
As far as meant for is concerned it is a matter of perspective considering that they are accessible for all.
As far as Pugs are concerned I tend to be more often surprised in a positive way as of late on elite maps especially in VCE, DRSE, NTTE. Much more than I am in ISA or ANRA.
The different maps themselves seem to have a major discrepancy in difficulty or rather "requirements". Much more than the difficulty setting itself provides. Whats meant for whom remains to be seen in my opinion.
Hrmm, with this and the other thread - it's difficult at times to keep track of things. I'm guessing I posted it in the other thread, so let me grab it from there...
We are fully cognizant that there will be complaints that it's too hard. We have no intention of going back on Elite and making it easier to achieve. This is the brass ring for you all to aspire to.
If anything our worry is that one or two might be too easy compared to the rest. We'll take steps to remedy those situations asap.
Welcome to Delta Rising. A lot has changed in the game difficulty, and we are looking for your feedback.
Delta Rising was a massive addition, and we anticipate that we will need to make adjustments. So over the next few weeks expect changes in the baseline difficulty, advanced difficulty, and elite difficulty - and also expect rewards to change as we gather more metrics on play-times and success rates.
Our goal was to make basic difficulty and the story content something everyone can play - even with a standard T5 ship. Levels 1-50 are generally pretty easy at basic difficulty, so we felt 51-60 should step things up a bit. Although we expect 51-60 accessible everyone, those in T5 ships and non-upgraded gear should to start to feel a definite challenge as they approach level 60. We expect Advanced to be for more skilled players and those who have invested in the game (ships and gear). And we expect Elite to be for the best of the best. We don't expect most players to succeed on elite difficulty.
If I were to guess, I would expect basic to get some minor tuning, Advanced to get a little easier and Elite to get a lot harder - and rewards, like dilithium rewards, could potentially go up across queues once we are sure we are hitting the right mark. But this is just my guess at this time.
Until then, let us know your thoughts here, and we will take your feedback into consideration.
We did warn you that Elite is not for everyone. Its pretty extreme. Seriously, most players should not be able to do it.
But please note, that have already had some pretty well organized fleets blazing through Elite with apparent ease. It kinda blows me away honestly. We have a lot of diversity on skill in STO, so finding the right balance point may take time. We want to make a real challenge for our top players, so if players are succeeding easily (and they are), expect it to probably get harder.
As part of the recent Delta Rising expansion released for Star Trek Online, PvE queues underwent a major overhaul to follow a new difficulty schema providing for interesting challenges as players advanced to the new maximum rank of Fleet Admiral. Unfortunately, our first attempts at updating difficulty have not been universally successful and as a result we will be working towards bringing the challenge of these queues in line with where we think they should be.
The key change in difficulty to the PvE queues was the addition of failure conditions for Advanced and Elite difficulties. Since the release of Delta Rising, weve been monitoring several key metrics regarding player experiences in STO, including player success rates for each queue. Adding failure conditions to queues was meant to add a challenge to them and so no advanced or elite queues should have a 100% success rate. At the same time, however, we dont expect any queue to have a success rate that is so low that players who are appropriately geared will never experience a successful run.
We have already started making adjustments to content throughout STO in order to tune difficulty. Most recently there was an update to the modifiers applied to critter health and damage output for advance difficulty (not just for queues but also for solo content played with the difficulty slider set to this value). There are more, similar changes planned that will continue to tune these critter modifiers. Additionally, PvE queues will be evaluated on a per queue basis and potentially have their mission requirements, critter spawns or other aspects updated to help tune their specific difficulties.
This will be an ongoing process one that we hope we can resolve quickly but we think it is much more important to have our changes be the right ones. We will continue to communicate with the players about all these updates as they occur.
Charles Gray
Lead Content Designer
Star Trek Online
Shortly after launch of Delta Rising, I made a post asking for your input on balance for levels 51-60 balance. I wanted to take a moment and thank everyone for their input. Raising the level cap with 3 difficulty settings is a big task. The difference in skill and gear from one player to another can be very large, so getting the balance right can be a challenge.
A little over a week or so ago, we made some changes to difficulty. Based on additional feedback, as well as continuing data mining, we are in the process of making another pass. We will be noticeably reducing the HP and shields of all space critters from levels 51-60. This change will have more of an effect at level 60 than 51. This change will affect Basic and Advanced difficulty, but not affect Elite Difficulty.
Be sure to watch for additional posts from the devs on related changes. In relation to game difficulty, keep an eye out for posts on PvE queue difficulty as well as a post on changes to changes to rewards. Please focus your responses on the appropriate thread.
LLAP
Al Captain Geko Rivera
So we had them laying out initially the...
"We expect Advanced to be for more skilled players and those who have invested in the game (ships and gear). And we expect Elite to be for the best of the best. We don't expect most players to succeed on elite difficulty."
"We are fully cognizant that there will be complaints that it's too hard. We have no intention of going back on Elite and making it easier to achieve. This is the brass ring for you all to aspire to."
...then moving on to make Advanced easier through a reduction in health and damage.
But the general premise remains, and it's something that's extremely foreign to some folks who may have not played any other games but played STO prior to Delta Rising.
STO-PreDR
Elite: Girlfriend's cat playing with a toy on the keyboard.
STO-DR
Advanced: More Skilled/Better Geared.
Elite: Best of the Best.
Hell, wouldn't even need to be familiar with other games - just familiar with even the basic definitions of the two words to see how it would play out.
Normal -> Advanced (More Skilled/Better Geared than Normal) -> Elite (Best of the Advanced)
But some folks think it was perfectly fine for them not to have invested in the least, not a financial investment - but an investment in their build (not requiring any actual financial investment) or an investment in understanding the queue...to blow through Elites. That's kind of delusional...imho.
the problem is that the adv. STFs pretty much are like elite STFs
elites should have fail conditions... adv. have options that players could get if they play good enough
but since cryptic never finishes something they start we are in the situation where
1. normal difficulty missions are normal STFs
2. elite difficulty missions are adv. STFs
3. adv. difficulty missions dont really exist
So you're saying it's now a different game. I agree.
The question is - is it for 1000 people who must each pay $1000 a month
10,000 people who must pay $100 a month
or 100,000 people to pay $10 a month.
I think they're going for the 2nd option there, where before they were going for the 3rd. If they fully go for the first the game will be done well before the end of the year.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
What many of you who berate the "casuals" seem to forget is how the game and how it's player patterns have changed over the years .
- For the first 2 years the only "endgame" was the 3 long Borg STF's and Terradome .
Players who you'd see as "casuals" complained then too about the difficulty (and length) of said STF'S , and there were plenty of teams that made it to Armek or Rebecca and fail hardcore (which is a whole lot less fun when you have an hour or more invested already in the mission) .
On the bright side , most of the player base ran with mixed teams and that supported weaker players getting better through practice and hands on examples of what to do .
- Then came F2P and the cutting up of the old Borg STF's into 15 minute "coffee break" runs while at the same time slowly introducing more powerful options into the game , in effect dumbing down of all the game's PVE content through power creep .
This had the effect of those who searched for power to make their separate channels , but it also had the effect of many players looking for the easiest STF's to run , this making the ground STF'S something of a rarity (as opposed to how many ISE got run) .
- And now we have DR , where things were made difficult again .
And putting aside the reasons for this change (to make you craft & spend Dil + cash) , one thing g that no longer is the same is the state of the player base .
We no longer hang out in Gamma Orianis calling for STF team in zone chat (and hoping for team mates who had put at least a few points in their Ground Specs) .
We are quite organised and segregated via fleets and chat channels, and that situation creates a perception difference between those who have reliable teams to run with and those who don't .
And said difference in perception is the key of the two groups not really understanding the in game experiences of the other group .
... which then leads to offensive and defensive posturing , with a side dish of presumption ...
But uh...aren't there more than two groups? Cause it looks like you've broken it down into the...Channel Pug/Premade & Public Pug. Where those are the two groups kind of going back and forth at it...yeah? Unless I'm reading that wrong (it hasn't been my brightest week so far as far as the cognitive bit goes...heh).
Cause I've seen a bunch of folks from the Public Pug group arguing with each other...where one might mistake some of those folks for Channel Pug/Premade folks, but they're actually Public Pug folks that don't agree with their Public Pug fellows.
It's along the lines of the folks that want to get rid of PvP in the hopes that certain things will go away, when it's some of their PvE fellows that are raising the concerns and not PvP folks. It's like some of the PvP vs PvE arguments, where both sides are lumping folks together on the other side - even if folks on different sides might not actually be on different sides.
Hell, it's like one of the common ones that's taking place in this thread. Somebody declares they're "casual"...do they get swarmed by the "hardcore" folks? Nah, they get swarmed by "casual" folks going, "Oh Hell noes! I ain't like that!"
Outside of folks trolling, generally imho, most fights actually take place between folks that one might say are part of the same first glance overall group...but just like any group one might picture folks in, there are all sorts of subgroups and subgroups and subgroups there.
All I do are Public Pug runs...I look at some of my fellows...and yeah, I /facepalm. I'm not dropping those /facepalms as a Channel Pug/Premade person. I consider myself a "casual" player. I'm not grinding everything out to have the best, I'm not min/maxing my build for the utmost efficiency, I'm not concerned about pathing/piloting perfectly through a map, I'm not doing those countless things that I envision the "hardcore" player doing.
I mean, lol, I posted that video in the one Tachyon Beam thread of me flying around in circles and getting stuck in a Transformer. I'm just a goofball trying to have fun in the game. But if there's some content out there that has some basic requirements - I'm going to try to meet them or I'm not going to run them. It's like with all the discussion that took place after the launch of DR and what Advanced would require at the time. I knew that my goofball builds from before DR couldn't do that...so I didn't run them. Wasn't until they'd been nerfed into the ground that I actually started hitting them up at the end of December.
Even after the changes to EAP/[Pla] that took place and changed the numbers for the folks at the top there, I'm still only doing 10-20% the potential DPS out there...and that 10-20% is already overkill for Advanced. Somebody showing up doing 1-2%...why would they do that? If there were five of them...the group would fail. So yeah, I might end up having words with them so to speak. Here on the forums - I'm not going to say anything in the game. Who knows why they did that in the game, but when folks are trying to defend that on the forums...that's a different story.
The current fail conditition do not challenge a pre made team at all , they know the content and take care of the fail condititions without much to any effort. The fail conditition to a pre made team arnt a challenge
To a pug with new players in it its terrible
we don't have time to type what and how to do the content....most wouldn't listen anyway and they have there chat turned off and if there is only 1 or 2 veteran players in the instance they probably arnt powerful enough to do it by themselves or stop a new player from triggering a fail
what would be wrong with removing the fail and adding a bonus to completing the optional
Let the pugs fight longer and not receive a bonus , To make them fail without even know why they failed will make them stop playing
This is terrible gamemastering
If it isn't Fun they wont play
Rule #1 To being a gamemaster
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
So you're saying it's now a different game. I agree.
The question is - is it for 1000 people who must each pay $1000 a month
10,000 people who must pay $100 a month
or 100,000 people to pay $10 a month.
I think they're going for the 2nd option there, where before they were going for the 3rd. If they fully go for the first the game will be done well before the end of the year.
You can run Advanced using T5 9 console boats with mission rewards and random loot drops as a mediocre/average player and be overkill for the content. Before they nerfed Advanced into the ground, it might have been a different game...but they did nerf it into the ground. And they also added in a crapload more powercreep in the process, so somebody that's flying more than just that is going to be even more overkill for the content.
I've done this example elsewhere, and I should probably just quote it; but I'll go through it again...a variation of it.
Let's start with 7,000 DPS. For this 7,000 DPS, let's say the following is in play:
1) Average 100 Weapon Power.
2) Average 7km with Beams.
3) Average 75% active.
So let's take a look at two other players. First, one with the following in play:
1) Average 125 Weapon Power.
2) Average 4km with Beams.
3) Average 90% active.
125 Weapon Power vs. 100 Weapon Power. 100 Weapon Power provides +100% damage (((100 - 50) * 0.02) = 1). 125 Weapon Power provides +150% damage (((125 - 50) * 0.02) = 1.5).
7000 / 2 = 3500 * 2.5 = 8750
4km vs 7km with Beams. 7km does 76% damage. 4km does 88% damage. This is from the range penalty.
8750 / 0.76 = 11513.16 * 0.88 = 10131.58
90% active vs 75% active. Those are pseudo modifiers based on the player actively engaged instead of sitting out in the middle of nowhere doing nothing or moving at a snail's pace to the next engagement.
10131.58 / 0.75 = 13508.77 * 0.9 = 12157.89
And then the other player with what they've got in play:
1) Average 75 Weapon Power.
2) Average <10km with Beams.
3) Average 55% active.
75 Weapon Power vs. 100 Weapon Power. 100 Weapon Power provides +100% damage (((100 - 50) * 0.02) = 1). 75 Weapon Power provides +50% damage (((75 - 50) * 0.02) = 0.5).
7000 / 2 = 3500 * 1.5 = 5250
<10km vs 7km with Beams. 7km does 76% damage. <10km does 64% damage. This is from the range penalty.
5250 / 0.76 = 6907.89 * 0.64 = 4421.05
55% active vs 75% active. Those are pseudo modifiers based on the player actively engaged instead of sitting out in the middle of nowhere doing nothing or moving at a snail's pace to the next engagement.
4421.05 / 0.75 = 5894.74 * 0.55 = 3242.11
So there we are, our three players - no actual change in any gearing and let's see what we've got there in a simple three line TLDR comparison, eh?
Player A (Avg 100 Weapon Power, Avg 7km with Beams, Avg 75% Active): 7000 DPS
Player B (Avg 125 Weapon Power, Avg 4km with Beams, Avg 90% Active): 12157.89 DPS
Player C (Avg 75 Weapon Power, Avg <10km with Beams, Avg 55% Active): 3242.11 DPS
And keep in mind, that's without changing any gearing - just changing how the ship was flown. Hell, it's not taking into account buff/debuff cycling which would increase the gap between Player B and Player C even more. Put them on a team with similar players and that gap grows even more.
But sticking with those three lines, let's say we throw more gear at Player C, eh? We can technically see the modifiers that already exist based off of the 7000 DPS.
3242.11 / 7000 = ~0.4632
Say we threw enough gear at Player C that Player A would have been doing 15000, yeah? Then Player C would be doing...
15000 * 0.4632 = 6948
They still wouldn't be doing the original 7k Player A was and they're not touching the 12k Player B was doing. Speaking of Player B, what would happen if we threw that same gear at them?
12157.89 / 7000 = ~1.7368
15000 * 1.7368 = 26052
So we'd be looking at...
Player A) 15000 DPS
Player 26052 DPS
Player C) 6948 DPS
So the complaints about needing gearing and the like? No, at some point that Player C just needs to learn how to play.
The current fail conditition do not challenge a pre made team at all , they know the content and take care of the fail condititions without much to any effort. The fail conditition to a pre made team arnt a challenge
To a pug with new players in it its terrible
we don't have time to type what and how to do the content....most wouldn't listen anyway and they have there chat turned off and if there is only 1 or 2 veteran players in the instance they probably arnt powerful enough to do it by themselves or stop a new player from triggering a fail
what would be wrong with removing the fail and adding a bonus to completing the optional
Let the pugs fight longer and not receive a bonus , To make them fail without even know why they failed will make them stop playing
This is terrible gamemastering
If it isn't Fun they wont play
Rule #1 To being a gamemaster
So instead of questioning why new players in a pug are hitting up Advanced or Elite content...rather than gaining some experience, not being new players, and then hitting up Advanced or Elite...you want to blame Cryptic?
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
I mean, seriously, how can there be such a disconnect there?
New Player = Advanced? Nope.
New Player = Elite? Nope.
Then why on Earth are folks complaining about new players having issues in Advanced and Elite?
I love stopping in to see the "plato's and einstein's" of STO debate this important issues. Although without epic gear, and a premade group it is hard to have an end game chat debate victory.:eek:
I don't see how your reply relates to my comment in any way.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
"We expect Advanced to be for more skilled players and those who have invested in the game (ships and gear). And we expect Elite to be for the best of the best. We don't expect most players to succeed on elite difficulty."
"We are fully cognizant that there will be complaints that it's too hard. We have no intention of going back on Elite and making it easier to achieve. This is the brass ring for you all to aspire to."
...then moving on to make Advanced easier through a reduction in health and damage.
But the general premise remains, and it's something that's extremely foreign to some folks who may have not played any other games but played STO prior to Delta Rising.
STO-PreDR
Elite: Girlfriend's cat playing with a toy on the keyboard.
STO-DR
Advanced: More Skilled/Better Geared.
Elite: Best of the Best.
Hell, wouldn't even need to be familiar with other games - just familiar with even the basic definitions of the two words to see how it would play out.
Normal -> Advanced (More Skilled/Better Geared than Normal) -> Elite (Best of the Advanced)
But some folks think it was perfectly fine for them not to have invested in the least, not a financial investment - but an investment in their build (not requiring any actual financial investment) or an investment in understanding the queue...to blow through Elites. That's kind of delusional...imho.
You are referring to Advanced and Elite not meant for better or good players, I was referring to Advanced and Elite not meant for Pugs.
Pug players can be quiet good players and should be able to queue up for an elite map if they want to (without the need to set up a premade).
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
So instead of questioning why new players in a pug are hitting up Advanced or Elite content...rather than gaining some experience, not being new players, and then hitting up Advanced or Elite...you want to blame Cryptic?
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
I mean, seriously, how can there be such a disconnect there?
New Player = Advanced? Nope.
New Player = Elite? Nope.
Then why on Earth are folks complaining about new players having issues in Advanced and Elite?
The classic Borg space STF are a bit different there. Taking the discussion of this thread into account an elite mode would probably look that way: High DPS groups would deal with them in 3 minutes and get 2300 dil + mats + slavage while low DPS or inexperienced groups would struggle more than they already do and probably never see the reward at all.
Elite is not meant for pugs or inexperienced or simply bad players. With the rest I dont see any problems.
As far as meant for is concerned it is a matter of perspective considering that they are accessible for all.
...while responding that Cryptic stated their intent for Elite to be for the "best of the best" as such.
So sure, if only the "best of the best" were to attempt to pug an Elite - they might have a shot at it. Folks that aren't the "best of the best" attempting to pug it...wouldn't have a shot at it.
And to be honest, going back to the first bit there...
"High DPS groups would deal with them in 3 minutes"
...doesn't really jive with me as far as what Elite content would be.
That's basically the lolElite content we had/have.
Normal...would be a challenge for "Normal" players. They may or may not be able to get an Optional, because it is an Optional and would be a challenge for "Normal" players.
Advanced...would be a challenge for "Advanced" players. They may or may not be able to get an Optional, because it is an Optional and would be a challenge for "Advanced" players.
Elite...would be a challenge for "Elite" players. They may or may not be able to get an Optional, because it is an Optional and would be a challenge for "Elite" players.
Advanced would be an "extreme" challenge for "Normal" players and Elite would be an "impossible" challenge for "Normal" players.
It wouldn't be a case of Elite being something that the "Elite" players knocked off in 3 minutes or the like. That would get into what Cryptic said about needing to up the challenge if it were too easy.
So should a random possibly Normal or even Advanced pug be able to hit up Elite and get it done? If they're not the "best of the best"...they're not meant to tackle that content according to what Cryptic has said.
Hrmm, that pesky scapegoat..."Elitism"...evil, monstrous, it's after our virgin daughters and wants to make soup from our kittens and puppies!
STO...where folks are doing 50k-100k DPS, but the guy doing 5-7k DPS is called an elitist because he doesn't want a run to fail because of all the folks doing 0.5-2k DPS.
Comments
I was gonna have offered him cake.
Shame on you we all know the STFs are all jacked up and nothing, but fails for casual players.
It fails because idiots blow generators while trash is still up. If people stopped being so <expletive deleted> stupid there wouldn't be a problem. Cube --> generators --> transformer --> trash--> repeat. You can even do it with sub par damage if the mentally challenged communicated and coordinated to blow the generators at the same time like we did in the old days.
/grumble grumble. Darn new kids and your t6 ships. Back in my day we had to do stf's by hand. Ground and space were he same mission and we did it in galaxy class ships! /grabs cane and hobbles off
Let the stupid suffer
The point is there is more casual players than "know how captains".
Something has to give or the casual players will just keep leaving the game.
Casuals can still be know how captains.
It's all those who refuse to change or, attempt to change that remain the vast majority problem.
Casual has nothing to really do with it, outside of not enough time to fully dedicate to more than 1 character most often.
Those who would not dedicate to getting things done, just because they do not want to, is IMO not a casual player but, is being as stubborn as a mule.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I'm a casual, but I'm pretty knowledgable with Science and not so bad with engineering, but I'll admit I don't know jack about tactical and escorts.
The issue isn't between "casual" and "know how"... the issue is the fact that people are lazy.
Let me say that again.
PEOPLE ARE LAZY.
People are going to take the path of least resistance... which means they're going to either a) not care and then cry when things don't go their way and expect someone else to do the work for them or b) they're going to come to the forums, find a cookie cutter build, build it then cry when things don't go their way and expect someone else to fix something that isn't broken.
Case in point, I can find any number of posts that'll show me how to build a scimitar. I can go into ISA with said super-dreadnaught and blow the entire mission because I ignore the cube, or I blow the generators before everyone is ready and then don't turn and take the trash mobs... or in other queues I ignore the Kang totally... or I hit my powers at the wrong time putting them on cool down when I need them...
So being lazy and not taking time to actually learn the game... it's easier for me to cry that the game is broken/too hard/science sucks... pretty much insert any number of crying things we see.
It doesn't help that people are so damn entitled today and expect that I started the game yesterday why can't I join ISE today and win and get all my shiney stuff and be super-uber...
Case in point... why people say "science sucks" when they just dont' want to put the time into it because they feel it should all be given to them.
While it is true that many were way too over powered for the old elite, there is one thing to keep in mind. Even groups that were not that powerful could still have 2 pugs that were under powered, and struggle through to complete it.
Still, there will be a few that will just not be able to make it, unless there is a queue for them made between the normal, and subelite (also known as normal) we now have. Just like there are some that couldn't beat some of the episodes on elite before, those same few are having trouble with normal when there is a group of 5 of them in the group.
However, those are very few.
I was thinking about the casual players, and the many others that would like to play the game for fun, without needing to chase DPS, or make it much harder on the team because we are not chasing it.
If they used the old elite as a gauge, they should be able to set a max cap per individual hit. This will not mean a max cap per the entire queue. If so, then ones like Vortex, or Cure would never be able to finish.
The way it would work is the cap would be sit slightly above the total DPS needed to beat the queue in a sit amount of time under idea situations. So, if your beam arrays are limited to no more than 2,000 per hit, no matter how high of mark they are, then it will help balance it out more.
Also, the hp pool for advance can be brought back down. This will do a few things.
1-It will mean that the queues will take no less than a set amount of time to complete on Advanced, no matter how much DPS your ship can put out.
2-It will mean that the developers that are playing tug-a-war with the high PDS players will have no reason to do it anymore in Advanced queues.
3-It also means that the developers would be able to bring the Advanced queues back to a level they said they were going to have them at.
4-It will increase how many casual players are playing the queues.
5-It will make those queues more balanced for players not chasing DPS.
6-Having a tank, and healer would be more effective, instead of pointless like now.
7-It will encourage the high DPS players into the elite if they want to show off how powerful they are. (That is where they are suppose to do that anyways).
Before DR hit, it was said that the elite queues were suppose to be for those that want to test themselves, and push for the highest DPS. They even added better R&D rewards for them.
However, when ones that don't care about R&D TRIBBLE can just steam roll more advanced queses quicker, and end up getting more total rewards in the same amount of time than doing elite, the developers are going to keep playing tug-a-war with them.
High DPS players complete queued missions quicker than the developers want, and get more rewards than developers wanted them to, the developers will nerf rewards, or mess with the queues in some other way to try to control the high DPS players. Though, in doing so, they are hurting the ones that don't want to play the DPS game.
Why do you think the new Mirror grind event has a timer for the first part that cannot be shortened? When higher DPS players were finishing up early, and had 3 mins to just fly around, they made it harder. And that was on normal. Instead of just making it so that you could complete closing so many rifts to reduce the timer, they give more rifts, knowing that a lot of players were also running it on multiple characters.
They are in a constant state of trying to 1-up the DPS players in advanced queues, and that was what elite is for.
That is why the game has lost its enjoyment for a lot. So much focus on DPS, and so little on quality of play for not chasing it.
Took all that time over a defination, it's pretty clear we have different thoughts on player ranks.
Something has to give, players don't give they just go.
So go ahead and argue, disagree, say people should do this and that.
End of it all you cannot make people do anything.
Just because someone said lets make the game this way.
Doesn't mean people will like it or play heck they just might stop playing.
Eh sry Virus, but when the transformer was healt before, the only thing that failed was the optional (and the hope of a short run). KASE and CSE had real fail-options though, same as HSE. ISE (and N) was the only STF where only the optional could fail without failing the mission itself.
6. due to the enemy having more defense and thus can fire far longer in pugs a tank is quite welcome here. What you might want to take into consideration: A tank without dps is not a tank, but a failure, as it cant draw aggro. So tanks dont have any problem with HP-Gauges, since they have to do dps either way and -due to more hp- have an actual place in the team.
7. If we had Elite mission (korfez aside), we would play Elite. Unfortunately cryptic didnt feel the need to implement all missions on elite.
I think cryptic simply has a hard-timer with some of the PvE to get an elite mode.
Most of the missions like the Undine space ones or the Voth are miserably time gated. You know, even if you do the mission with awesome DPS it simply takes some time to do them and your rewards are limited that way.
The classic Borg space STF are a bit different there. Taking the discussion of this thread into account an elite mode would probably look that way: High DPS groups would deal with them in 3 minutes and get 2300 dil + mats + slavage while low DPS or inexperienced groups would struggle more than they already do and probably never see the reward at all.
Personally I think cryptic wants player to enjoy newer contend and we are lucky off that the old Borg STF did not share the same fate of No Win Scenario.
My Delta Toon may earn a lot of TRIBBLE next moth but the Kirks Protégé Title on top of the M.A.C.O. Operational armor I am unlikely to get.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Elite is not meant for pugs or inexperienced or simply bad players. With the rest I dont see any problems.
Sure you don't, neither do I ($$$). Question is just there if Cryptic has.
As far as meant for is concerned it is a matter of perspective considering that they are accessible for all.
As far as Pugs are concerned I tend to be more often surprised in a positive way as of late on elite maps especially in VCE, DRSE, NTTE. Much more than I am in ISA or ANRA.
The different maps themselves seem to have a major discrepancy in difficulty or rather "requirements". Much more than the difficulty setting itself provides. Whats meant for whom remains to be seen in my opinion.
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- For the first 2 years the only "endgame" was the 3 long Borg STF's and Terradome .
Players who you'd see as "casuals" complained then too about the difficulty (and length) of said STF'S , and there were plenty of teams that made it to Armek or Rebecca and fail hardcore (which is a whole lot less fun when you have an hour or more invested already in the mission) .
On the bright side , most of the player base ran with mixed teams and that supported weaker players getting better through practice and hands on examples of what to do .
- Then came F2P and the cutting up of the old Borg STF's into 15 minute "coffee break" runs while at the same time slowly introducing more powerful options into the game , in effect dumbing down of all the game's PVE content through power creep .
This had the effect of those who searched for power to make their separate channels , but it also had the effect of many players looking for the easiest STF's to run , this making the ground STF'S something of a rarity (as opposed to how many ISE got run) .
- And now we have DR , where things were made difficult again .
And putting aside the reasons for this change (to make you craft & spend Dil + cash) , one thing g that no longer is the same is the state of the player base .
We no longer hang out in Gamma Orianis calling for STF team in zone chat (and hoping for team mates who had put at least a few points in their Ground Specs) .
We are quite organised and segregated via fleets and chat channels, and that situation creates a perception difference between those who have reliable teams to run with and those who don't .
And said difference in perception is the key of the two groups not really understanding the in game experiences of the other group .
... which then leads to offensive and defensive posturing , with a side dish of presumption ...
Nope, the only "fail" encountered in the pre-DR elite as far as I recall mode was in CSE when the Kang got destroyed or 10 probes got through the vortex in KASA.
All other fails were due to players not being able to complete a mission and left map by themselves. (as in cant deactivate the reformer chain in CGE or cant kill Becca in IGA)
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Yeah, that's why I changed the font to black and quoted the bit from where I realized I was wrong later. I'll edit it and add another note at the start of the post to make sure folks realize the bit in black is wrong.
I'll argue with folks out the wahzoo...not because I need to be right, I just need the info to be right. If I'm wrong on something, I've got no problem with that...got no problem leaving proof that I was wrong there. Will usually edit the post to note that I was wrong like I tried to do there rather than hide that I was wrong...heh.
Hrmm, with this and the other thread - it's difficult at times to keep track of things. I'm guessing I posted it in the other thread, so let me grab it from there...
Course, less than a month later...
So we had them laying out initially the...
"We expect Advanced to be for more skilled players and those who have invested in the game (ships and gear). And we expect Elite to be for the best of the best. We don't expect most players to succeed on elite difficulty."
"We are fully cognizant that there will be complaints that it's too hard. We have no intention of going back on Elite and making it easier to achieve. This is the brass ring for you all to aspire to."
...then moving on to make Advanced easier through a reduction in health and damage.
But the general premise remains, and it's something that's extremely foreign to some folks who may have not played any other games but played STO prior to Delta Rising.
STO-PreDR
Elite: Girlfriend's cat playing with a toy on the keyboard.
STO-DR
Advanced: More Skilled/Better Geared.
Elite: Best of the Best.
Hell, wouldn't even need to be familiar with other games - just familiar with even the basic definitions of the two words to see how it would play out.
Normal -> Advanced (More Skilled/Better Geared than Normal) -> Elite (Best of the Advanced)
But some folks think it was perfectly fine for them not to have invested in the least, not a financial investment - but an investment in their build (not requiring any actual financial investment) or an investment in understanding the queue...to blow through Elites. That's kind of delusional...imho.
elites should have fail conditions... adv. have options that players could get if they play good enough
but since cryptic never finishes something they start we are in the situation where
1. normal difficulty missions are normal STFs
2. elite difficulty missions are adv. STFs
3. adv. difficulty missions dont really exist
The question is - is it for 1000 people who must each pay $1000 a month
10,000 people who must pay $100 a month
or 100,000 people to pay $10 a month.
I think they're going for the 2nd option there, where before they were going for the 3rd. If they fully go for the first the game will be done well before the end of the year.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
But uh...aren't there more than two groups? Cause it looks like you've broken it down into the...Channel Pug/Premade & Public Pug. Where those are the two groups kind of going back and forth at it...yeah? Unless I'm reading that wrong (it hasn't been my brightest week so far as far as the cognitive bit goes...heh).
Cause I've seen a bunch of folks from the Public Pug group arguing with each other...where one might mistake some of those folks for Channel Pug/Premade folks, but they're actually Public Pug folks that don't agree with their Public Pug fellows.
It's along the lines of the folks that want to get rid of PvP in the hopes that certain things will go away, when it's some of their PvE fellows that are raising the concerns and not PvP folks. It's like some of the PvP vs PvE arguments, where both sides are lumping folks together on the other side - even if folks on different sides might not actually be on different sides.
Hell, it's like one of the common ones that's taking place in this thread. Somebody declares they're "casual"...do they get swarmed by the "hardcore" folks? Nah, they get swarmed by "casual" folks going, "Oh Hell noes! I ain't like that!"
Outside of folks trolling, generally imho, most fights actually take place between folks that one might say are part of the same first glance overall group...but just like any group one might picture folks in, there are all sorts of subgroups and subgroups and subgroups there.
All I do are Public Pug runs...I look at some of my fellows...and yeah, I /facepalm. I'm not dropping those /facepalms as a Channel Pug/Premade person. I consider myself a "casual" player. I'm not grinding everything out to have the best, I'm not min/maxing my build for the utmost efficiency, I'm not concerned about pathing/piloting perfectly through a map, I'm not doing those countless things that I envision the "hardcore" player doing.
I mean, lol, I posted that video in the one Tachyon Beam thread of me flying around in circles and getting stuck in a Transformer. I'm just a goofball trying to have fun in the game. But if there's some content out there that has some basic requirements - I'm going to try to meet them or I'm not going to run them. It's like with all the discussion that took place after the launch of DR and what Advanced would require at the time. I knew that my goofball builds from before DR couldn't do that...so I didn't run them. Wasn't until they'd been nerfed into the ground that I actually started hitting them up at the end of December.
Even after the changes to EAP/[Pla] that took place and changed the numbers for the folks at the top there, I'm still only doing 10-20% the potential DPS out there...and that 10-20% is already overkill for Advanced. Somebody showing up doing 1-2%...why would they do that? If there were five of them...the group would fail. So yeah, I might end up having words with them so to speak. Here on the forums - I'm not going to say anything in the game. Who knows why they did that in the game, but when folks are trying to defend that on the forums...that's a different story.
To a pug with new players in it its terrible
we don't have time to type what and how to do the content....most wouldn't listen anyway and they have there chat turned off and if there is only 1 or 2 veteran players in the instance they probably arnt powerful enough to do it by themselves or stop a new player from triggering a fail
what would be wrong with removing the fail and adding a bonus to completing the optional
Let the pugs fight longer and not receive a bonus , To make them fail without even know why they failed will make them stop playing
This is terrible gamemastering
If it isn't Fun they wont play
Rule #1 To being a gamemaster
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
You can run Advanced using T5 9 console boats with mission rewards and random loot drops as a mediocre/average player and be overkill for the content. Before they nerfed Advanced into the ground, it might have been a different game...but they did nerf it into the ground. And they also added in a crapload more powercreep in the process, so somebody that's flying more than just that is going to be even more overkill for the content.
I've done this example elsewhere, and I should probably just quote it; but I'll go through it again...a variation of it.
Let's start with 7,000 DPS. For this 7,000 DPS, let's say the following is in play:
1) Average 100 Weapon Power.
2) Average 7km with Beams.
3) Average 75% active.
So let's take a look at two other players. First, one with the following in play:
1) Average 125 Weapon Power.
2) Average 4km with Beams.
3) Average 90% active.
125 Weapon Power vs. 100 Weapon Power. 100 Weapon Power provides +100% damage (((100 - 50) * 0.02) = 1). 125 Weapon Power provides +150% damage (((125 - 50) * 0.02) = 1.5).
7000 / 2 = 3500 * 2.5 = 8750
4km vs 7km with Beams. 7km does 76% damage. 4km does 88% damage. This is from the range penalty.
8750 / 0.76 = 11513.16 * 0.88 = 10131.58
90% active vs 75% active. Those are pseudo modifiers based on the player actively engaged instead of sitting out in the middle of nowhere doing nothing or moving at a snail's pace to the next engagement.
10131.58 / 0.75 = 13508.77 * 0.9 = 12157.89
And then the other player with what they've got in play:
1) Average 75 Weapon Power.
2) Average <10km with Beams.
3) Average 55% active.
75 Weapon Power vs. 100 Weapon Power. 100 Weapon Power provides +100% damage (((100 - 50) * 0.02) = 1). 75 Weapon Power provides +50% damage (((75 - 50) * 0.02) = 0.5).
7000 / 2 = 3500 * 1.5 = 5250
<10km vs 7km with Beams. 7km does 76% damage. <10km does 64% damage. This is from the range penalty.
5250 / 0.76 = 6907.89 * 0.64 = 4421.05
55% active vs 75% active. Those are pseudo modifiers based on the player actively engaged instead of sitting out in the middle of nowhere doing nothing or moving at a snail's pace to the next engagement.
4421.05 / 0.75 = 5894.74 * 0.55 = 3242.11
So there we are, our three players - no actual change in any gearing and let's see what we've got there in a simple three line TLDR comparison, eh?
Player A (Avg 100 Weapon Power, Avg 7km with Beams, Avg 75% Active): 7000 DPS
Player B (Avg 125 Weapon Power, Avg 4km with Beams, Avg 90% Active): 12157.89 DPS
Player C (Avg 75 Weapon Power, Avg <10km with Beams, Avg 55% Active): 3242.11 DPS
And keep in mind, that's without changing any gearing - just changing how the ship was flown. Hell, it's not taking into account buff/debuff cycling which would increase the gap between Player B and Player C even more. Put them on a team with similar players and that gap grows even more.
But sticking with those three lines, let's say we throw more gear at Player C, eh? We can technically see the modifiers that already exist based off of the 7000 DPS.
3242.11 / 7000 = ~0.4632
Say we threw enough gear at Player C that Player A would have been doing 15000, yeah? Then Player C would be doing...
15000 * 0.4632 = 6948
They still wouldn't be doing the original 7k Player A was and they're not touching the 12k Player B was doing. Speaking of Player B, what would happen if we threw that same gear at them?
12157.89 / 7000 = ~1.7368
15000 * 1.7368 = 26052
So we'd be looking at...
Player A) 15000 DPS
Player
Player C) 6948 DPS
So the complaints about needing gearing and the like? No, at some point that Player C just needs to learn how to play.
So instead of questioning why new players in a pug are hitting up Advanced or Elite content...rather than gaining some experience, not being new players, and then hitting up Advanced or Elite...you want to blame Cryptic?
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
I mean, seriously, how can there be such a disconnect there?
New Player = Advanced? Nope.
New Player = Elite? Nope.
Then why on Earth are folks complaining about new players having issues in Advanced and Elite?
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
You are referring to Advanced and Elite not meant for better or good players, I was referring to Advanced and Elite not meant for Pugs.
Pug players can be quiet good players and should be able to queue up for an elite map if they want to (without the need to set up a premade).
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Your logic seemingly has no place here.
I was replying based on this discussion...
...while responding that Cryptic stated their intent for Elite to be for the "best of the best" as such.
So sure, if only the "best of the best" were to attempt to pug an Elite - they might have a shot at it. Folks that aren't the "best of the best" attempting to pug it...wouldn't have a shot at it.
And to be honest, going back to the first bit there...
"High DPS groups would deal with them in 3 minutes"
...doesn't really jive with me as far as what Elite content would be.
That's basically the lolElite content we had/have.
Normal...would be a challenge for "Normal" players. They may or may not be able to get an Optional, because it is an Optional and would be a challenge for "Normal" players.
Advanced...would be a challenge for "Advanced" players. They may or may not be able to get an Optional, because it is an Optional and would be a challenge for "Advanced" players.
Elite...would be a challenge for "Elite" players. They may or may not be able to get an Optional, because it is an Optional and would be a challenge for "Elite" players.
Advanced would be an "extreme" challenge for "Normal" players and Elite would be an "impossible" challenge for "Normal" players.
It wouldn't be a case of Elite being something that the "Elite" players knocked off in 3 minutes or the like. That would get into what Cryptic said about needing to up the challenge if it were too easy.
So should a random possibly Normal or even Advanced pug be able to hit up Elite and get it done? If they're not the "best of the best"...they're not meant to tackle that content according to what Cryptic has said.
Hrmm, that pesky scapegoat..."Elitism"...evil, monstrous, it's after our virgin daughters and wants to make soup from our kittens and puppies!
STO...where folks are doing 50k-100k DPS, but the guy doing 5-7k DPS is called an elitist because he doesn't want a run to fail because of all the folks doing 0.5-2k DPS.