Decided to flip through some torps just looking at TS stuff (HY gets more complicated with the Salvo and Heavy options)...
9 Starship Weapon Training
9 Starship Projectile Weapons
Intel Phantom Mastery: Enhanced Weapon Systems
Missile Commander
No consoles, no set bonuses, no traits, no ability buffs.
Note: Just listing the Available Skills info/tooltip numbers, but tested each to check the actual number of torps firing and if the damage was near what the tooltip stated. Will add comments for each if the tooltip itself is off.
So, I was all prepared to talk about all the little different things going on up there; when I did a preview and saw another post which kind of ticked me off but also got me thinking about what they had quoted.
So rather than go through all of the above, I just going to cut to the chase...basically, why can't the various Torpedo Weapon Enhancements provide the same % buffs regardless of the torpedo type? Why can't it just work like everything else? +31.9% Tac Console is +31.9% regardless, the Nukara Aux Offensive is the same regardless, APO/APA, etc, etc, etc...all standardized buffs, yeah? So why are the Torpedo Weapon Enhancements all over the place like this instead of standardized?
What to standardize them at? Well, that's where the part of that reply and what it quoted got me thinking...
So if we take a look at the numbers Neut was giving before to translate the quote/snippet into numbers along the lines of the rest in this post.
And that ~171%, ~200%, ~231% kind of comes into play matching up pretty close to some of the torps we were already seeing, yeah?
So what if it were simply TS1 = 170%; TS2 = 200%; TS3 = 230% the damage of a Standard shot? With that being a fixed modifier that's not modified up here and down there as was apparent with the numbers at the start of this post?
That any balancing concerns of the torps be left to what's going on outside of the Weapon Enhancements, eh? That instead we had Weapon Enhancements that provided a consistent % buff?
(Yeah, I know I said in a previous post I'm not a fan of ratios/percentages, but they're not going to be going anywhere - so I'd rather have some consistency.)
* * * * *
Note 1
TS1 tooltip states: Up to 3 enemies - your main target, and up to 2 more.
TS2 tooltip states: Up to 4 enemies - your main target, and up to 5 more.
TS3 tooltip states: Up to 5 enemies - your main target, and up to 8 more.
Does not display number of torps per target (no x2, x3, etc).
Note 2
TS1 tooltip states: Up to 3 enemies - your main target, and up to 2 more.
TS2 tooltip states: Up to 4 enemies - your main target, and up to 5 more.
TS3 tooltip states: Up to 5 enemies - your main target, and up to 8 more.
Displays number of torps per target (x2, x3, etc).
Note 3
TS1 tooltip states: Up to 3 enemies - your main target, and up to 2 more.
TS2 tooltip states: Up to 4 enemies - your main target, and up to 5 more.
TS3 tooltip states: Up to 5 enemies - your main target, and up to 8 more.
Displays the incorrect number of torps per target.
The bad thing is, that you dear Virus know as well as anyone else, that this games tool tips are at most times incorrect and, very misleading which leads us to example results like you described.
We (as in people like yourself), are the one's who do the actual testing most often for the Dev's and, they decide if they agree with our (meaning player(s)) findings, than they may make proper changes for balance purposes or, they may state it was all WAI but, wasn't displaying it as such!
Always the battle of what is WAI and, what isn't WAI!
Excellent, Virus! I may have to reassess my initial thoughts. Will still do the testing I outlined earlier. Would you mind looking over my notes & results when I am finished?
Me? Look over stuff? I'm the junior assistant to the assistant guy...I babble forth a bunch of raw data for the smart guys out there to explain to me.
The bad thing is, that you dear Virus know as well as anyone else, that this games tool tips are at most times incorrect and, very misleading which leads us to example results like you described.
We (as in people like yourself), are the one's who do the actual testing most often for the Dev's and, they decide if they agree with our (meaning player(s)) findings, than they may make proper changes for balance purposes or, they may state it was all WAI but, wasn't displaying it as such!
Always the battle of what is WAI and, what isn't WAI!
Either way, keep the chin up and, nice report!
It's rough at times, because of that range on damage - but with TS3 at least, heh, you can grab enough samples pretty quickly to see that your numbers are falling within a range above or below that tooltip number or if they're nowhere near that tooltip number. It's not precise though...can't remember if they ever told us what percentage range the numbers would land in +/- that tooltip number to be able to check if things were in range or not. Meh...
Me? Look over stuff? I'm the junior assistant to the assistant guy...I babble forth a bunch of raw data for the smart guys out there to explain to me.
It's rough at times, because of that range on damage - but with TS3 at least, heh, you can grab enough samples pretty quickly to see that your numbers are falling within a range above or below that tooltip number or if they're nowhere near that tooltip number. It's not precise though...can't remember if they ever told us what percentage range the numbers would land in +/- that tooltip number to be able to check if things were in range or not. Meh...
It's all in their programming logic, the math formulas they devise to factor such things but, we still have to test for ourselves, otherwise how else do we know what is and, isn't WAI since we do not get the complete information at our disposal to go over, as to we do not get the raw formula they incorporated into their programming less they themselves tell us!
1) No traits & no gear except for the Bio-Neural Gel pack (13.8% radiation damage increase + 20% cool down reduction on Neutronic)
2) Tested on hull with 44.8% kinetic resist (no extensive shield tests conducted for this test).
3) Epic Neutronic XIV vs Epic Quantum XIV CritDx3[Pen]
For the short test (less than 500 shots)...
Initial review w/ a Mk I eyeball are as follows:
TS3 Test
- Neutronic (Kinetic + Radiation) Avg dmg per hit = 4354.17 (16.67% crit rate)
- Quantum (Kinetic) Avg dmg per hit = 3992.87 (25% crit rate)
HY3 Tests
- Neutronic (Kinetic + Radiation) Avg dmg per hit = 3112.86 (16.67% crit rate)
- Quantum (Kinetic) Avg dmg per hit = 4008.68 (16.67% crit rate)
NOTE on drain component:
For a target with 26 in the Power Insulator stat, the drain component matched the tooltip. In all firing modes, the drain lasted ~6 seconds (slightly longer for TS & HY, as it refreshes the counter upon impact of the final projectile). In both the TS & HY firing modes, the drain component spikes to values expected as if each projectile applied the drain value additively, but this spike lasts for less than one second.
Conclusion: Small-scale tests provide justification for further investigation of the performance between the two projectiles. Next testing will include sample sizes of at least 1000 shots for each firing mode, including normal shot mode under the same conditions.
**EDIT: Included in the next test would be an analysis of the average radiation and kinetic damage applied per projectile for each firing mode, with a focus on the TS3 firing mode. Once an average value for kinetic damage can be extracted, the 36% kinetic damage reduction will be applied in order to assess the proposed change.
Assumption #1 - The drain component is included in the 3km AoE component for Neutronic.
Assumption #2 - Radiation damage applies full damage to shields for each projectile launched in each firing mode.
Assumption #3 - HY3 firing mode provides lower radiation damage than a normal shot or TS3 mode (as per tooltip).
Hypothesis - The Neutronic torpedo applies more potential damage to shielded targets in TS3 firing mode due to targets low Power insulator values (which lowers shield strength), plus radiation damage being applied to the (weakened) shields.
In a perfect scenario for maximum Neutronic kinetic damage, the following occurs in this order:
1) Drain is applied
2) Radiation damage is applied
3) Kinetic damage is applied
Targets with low shield values and low Power Insulator values will potentially receive the most damage from Neutronic torpedo. Multiple targets within 3km will be affected by additional drain and radiation effects at a rate of 1+n, up to a maximum of 5n.
I may have been lying, this appears to be easy to fix. It was not flagged properly to allow for resistances, despite being allowed to scale with Flow Capacitors.
I'm having trouble finding a thread explaining the issue as reported by players... does the above cover it? Just that the energy drain is currently unresistable?
Good morning Bort.
Yes, that covers it. Torpedo ignores the target's PI when draining.
Now, for multiple hits, is the current way it's working correct? Seems only 1 of the drains sticks.
Some people (haven't checked on this and can't until later) say that 1 torpedo hit's drain doesn't stick around for 6 seconds. From what I read from the previous guy that posted, the torp affects a 3km area, so it might worth the checking that all that is working as intended. (Mult targets affected AND drain sticking for 6 secs on all of them).
Assumption #3 - HY3 firing mode provides lower radiation damage than a normal shot or TS3 mode (as per tooltip).
That got me curious, so I did just at tooltip look in the Sol System (not bothering to check what's on the guy that could affect it, not stripping it down, just quick slotted the VR12 Neutronic on to the boat)...
Normal: 6649.8 Kinetic & 951.1 Rad
TS3: 8004.5x3 Kinetic & 1030.1 Rad
TS2: 8004.5x3 Kinetic & 1030.1 Rad
TS1: 8004.5x3 Kinetic & 1030.1 Rad
HY3: 5717.9x4 Kinetic & 951.1 Rad
HY2: 6686.1x3 Kinetic & 951.1 Rad
HY1: 8638.6x2 Kinetic & 951.1 Rad
8004.5 / 6649.8 = 1.2037
1030.1 / 951.1 = 1.0830
Hrmm, not what I was expecting. Okay, so let me remove the 2pc Nukara.
Normal: 6497.6 / 929.3
TS: 7821.2 / 1006.5
7821.2 / 6497.6 = 1.2037
1006.5 / 929.3 = 1.0830
So it's definitely something tied to the Weapon Enhancement Bonus...even though it's providing a different amount of bonus to the Rad than to the Kinetic...and not applying to the HY at all.
Meh, went to check the E-Bio Photon, but it doesn't list the Rad damage for the Spreads, just the same Rad damage for the HY as the Standard. So can't compare there...hrmmm.
So what's causing the boost to the Rad with the TS...and is there anything else like that taking place with other torps?
in some discussion about it ingame, what we came to is that it still doesn't beat conventional dps and the only thing it's done is revitalize ships that were useless before
I'm having Vel (@jarvisandalfred) go over my numbers just to make sure that I didn't TRIBBLE up somewhere. We'll also go over our personal assessments of what the numbers reveal, and what we *think* it should mean for DR and beyond. Again, this is Cryptic's game, and we love it, or we wouldn't care, but it's the players that support it.
I would have like to have done more testing for all of the weapons, but I need to make a living & feed my family .
Testing conditions:
-) Aggressor (myself) has max skills in kinetic/projectile and flowcaps.
-) Aggressor had no traits or gear except for the following
- Neutronic Projectile (Epic XIV)
- Quantum Projectile (Epic XIV CritDx3[Pen] )
- Gel pack
-) Aggressor's stats (via stats page):
ACC 20.00%
CritH 8.00%
CritD 57.50%
-) Tests were done to shields and then to hull for Normal (N), Torpedo Spread 3 (TS3) and High Yield 3 (HY3)
-) Player resists were recorded and they match up properly with combatlog data.
Brief on the results:
1) Radiation damage seems to have a flat ~1/3 resistance to shields vs the players we tested (with various Radiation resists).
2) [Already confirmed by the Devs] Power Insulators had no effect on the power drain affect.
3) Only one torpedo applies one stack of power drain for the full six seconds ~99.99% of the time (with the very rare occurrence of the drain only lasting for ~<1s). All other torps apply a 'spike' drain for ~<1s 100% of the time, regardless of the firing mode.
4) There appears to be a single role for hit-or-crit in determining the damage of Neutronic's kinetic and radiation damage. If a crit is rolled, they both crit. If a hit is determined, they both hit. There are zero (0) occurrences of a mix hit & crit.
5) The damage range for both the Quantum and Neutronic are interesting to look at. I want my work reviewed before posting the numbers, but the disparity between N, TS3, and HY3 is very noticeable for each torpedo (this includes the 36% reduction in Neutronic's TS3 damage).
6)Neutronic TS3 radiation damage is higher than Neutronic N & HY radiation damage (which are the same). Is this intended?
7) Awaiting numbers check, but the per-torp damage ratio between TS3 and HY3 (pre and post 36% adjustment) looks odd. The trick is in trying to determine what the intent is, and then provide proper advice as to where the numbers need to be adjusted. Is the Quantum or the Neutronic the baseline, or, should Neutronic be a special case since it's a rep torp? If so, do all other rep torps follow the same rules (Gravimetric, Enhanced Bio, etc)?
**EDIT: I agree that the TS3 & 2 numbers DO need to be adjusted downward for Neutronic, but the tests have raised more questions than provided answers.
I may have been lying, this appears to be easy to fix. It was not flagged properly to allow for resistances, despite being allowed to scale with Flow Capacitors.
I'm having trouble finding a thread explaining the issue as reported by players... does the above cover it? Just that the energy drain is currently unresistable?
The problem with the Neutronic Torpedo's drain is the fact that it lasts less than a second rather than the listed 6 second duration. The EPS debuff also doesn't last the full duration and the stats sheet doesn't even update in time to see that it is working at all. A power drain and EPS debuff that lasts less than a second really doesn't even do anything. Now the power drain failing to obtain resists from Power Insulators would be a problem if the duration were fixed, but as it stands the lack of debuff duration makes this a non-issue.
Not bugged. Working. Needing balancing, but not bugged.
Get it right. They set the console to do X, and the other console to do Y. They interact logically as they should. The result is more powerful than "expected" but not bugged.
Because it's not a plasma boost. It's an additional plasma DOT. From the start it was never meant to be for plasma, it was meant for use on non-plasma. If you want to say its interaction with plasma is bugged, you'd have to determine if that was ever its intended use, or not. Otherwise, my point stands.
Because it's not a plasma boost. It's an additional plasma DOT. From the start it was never meant to be for plasma, it was meant for use on non-plasma. If you want to say its interaction with plasma is bugged, you'd have to determine if that was ever its intended use, or not. Otherwise, my point stands.
Why then does it have a percent boost for actual plasma damage instead of the DoT if it wasn't for actual plasma weapons? The DoT seems a tacked on consolation prize for non-plasma weapons.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I apologize for allowing it to take this long before reviewing the Neutronic+TS issue. This thread finally pulled the issue back to the front of our radar, so we were able to spend some time to verify the reports.
Yes, the torpedo is bugged.
The current magnitude values being referenced by all ranks of Torpedo Spread is incorrect, pointing to the wrong variables, which results in far more damage output than is intended for any torpedo launcher. The same is also true for this weapon when used with Rank II and III of Transport Warhead, except it's dealing far less damage than intended.
After correcting the issue, the Neutronic Torpedo will begin scaling its damage in the same manner as other torpedoes: Each individual hit deals less damage when using Spread, but there are more torpedoes overall, still resulting in a damage increase, rank-over-rank.
In the end, the following adjustments are being made:
Torpedo Spread:
- Torpedo Spread 1 = Base Damage increased by ~42% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 2 = Base Damage reduced by ~17% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 3 = Base Damage reduced by ~36% per Torpedo
- Number of torpedoes and damage of Radiation AOE remain unchanged
Transport Warhead:
- Transport Warhead 1 = Unchanged
- Transport Warhead 2 = Base Damage increased by ~17%
- Transport Warhead 3 = Base Damage increased by ~33%
- Damage of Radiation AOE remains unchanged
In the review that resulted in the above changes, we performed extensive comparisons to the scaling of many other Torpedo types, including both basic Quantum launchers, and unique launchers like the Gravimetric Photon Torpedo, in order to arrive at a level of scaling that adhered to the relative scales used in the rest of the game. And, even after these adjustments, this Torpedo is still quite a powerhouse, to compensate for its longer recharge cycle. (Which can still be reduced using the related set bonus!)
This review didn't focus on the energy drain aspect of the torpedo's secondary effect, which I see is also reportedly not working correctly. We'll take another look at that very soon.
I will agree that the torp needs some changes it is a bit over powered. However why in the world would you take away something that helps folks compete with the HUGE OVER POWER of these beam boats that are running 50, 75 and even some that are over 100k in DPS? its like cryptic wants not only to dictate to us whats fun and what is not (i.e. NWS) but you want to dictate in what kind of ship and weps we use as well. When do the developers of this game see that we all do not want to use beam weapons and yet unless we do we can't compete with them. So I want to know when are the developers going to put the same urgency on nerfing beam boats as they have with cannon builds? Like cannons lose power after 5k beams stay strong though out. Cannons use vast amount of power Beam FAW III doesn't drain power below 120. These types of under balances make the game far less fun that it should be. I don't want to just pull above my target and have one hand hitting the space bar my my other hand can be free to hold coffee, the phone, or what ever else that may come to mind. I want to play aggressive and I ask you to consider this when you are making your nerfs a priority.
END THE WELFARE PROGRAM CRYPTIC OR MAYBE WE NEED TO END YOURS!!!
I apologize for allowing it to take this long before reviewing the Neutronic+TS issue. This thread finally pulled the issue back to the front of our radar, so we were able to spend some time to verify the reports.
Yes, the torpedo is bugged.
The current magnitude values being referenced by all ranks of Torpedo Spread is incorrect, pointing to the wrong variables, which results in far more damage output than is intended for any torpedo launcher. The same is also true for this weapon when used with Rank II and III of Transport Warhead, except it's dealing far less damage than intended.
After correcting the issue, the Neutronic Torpedo will begin scaling its damage in the same manner as other torpedoes: Each individual hit deals less damage when using Spread, but there are more torpedoes overall, still resulting in a damage increase, rank-over-rank.
In the end, the following adjustments are being made:
Torpedo Spread:
- Torpedo Spread 1 = Base Damage increased by ~42% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 2 = Base Damage reduced by ~17% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 3 = Base Damage reduced by ~36% per Torpedo
- Number of torpedoes and damage of Radiation AOE remain unchanged
Transport Warhead:
- Transport Warhead 1 = Unchanged
- Transport Warhead 2 = Base Damage increased by ~17%
- Transport Warhead 3 = Base Damage increased by ~33%
- Damage of Radiation AOE remains unchanged
In the review that resulted in the above changes, we performed extensive comparisons to the scaling of many other Torpedo types, including both basic Quantum launchers, and unique launchers like the Gravimetric Photon Torpedo, in order to arrive at a level of scaling that adhered to the relative scales used in the rest of the game. And, even after these adjustments, this Torpedo is still quite a powerhouse, to compensate for its longer recharge cycle. (Which can still be reduced using the related set bonus!)
This review didn't focus on the energy drain aspect of the torpedo's secondary effect, which I see is also reportedly not working correctly. We'll take another look at that very soon.
I am a little confused there and a little worried. You said Each individual hit deals less damage when using Spread, but there are more torpedoes overall,
Then later on you said after the fix the number of torpedoes is unchanged. So we end up with less torpedoes and less damage? Wont that be an over nerf?
Any chance you can look at the Thoron Mines from the Delta Reputation store which are still completely broken. No proc, no thoron bonus. 20,000 dilithium and basic Quantum mines are dropped instead of Thoron mines.
I am a little confused there and a little worried. You said Each individual hit deals less damage when using Spread, but there are more torpedoes overall,
Then later on you said after the fix the number of torpedoes is unchanged. So we end up with less torpedoes and less damage? Wont that be an over nerf?
Any chance you can look at the Thoron Mines from the Delta Reputation store which are still completely broken. No proc, no thoron bonus. 20,000 dilithium and basic Quantum mines are dropped instead of Thoron mines.
I've heard about this, but haven't gotten around to testing it. IMHO, a complete review is needed for all weapons. My strong suit is in the Kinetics because I didn't want to run a cookie-cutter beam boat, and cannons do not perform to the same scale as they did back in 2011-2012.
The game could use some serious diversity in weapon use and team coordination. The Undine Space STO's are a good step in the right direction, but the power creep (tsunami) eroded the team aspect and coordination part.
Because it's not a plasma boost. It's an additional plasma DOT. From the start it was never meant to be for plasma, it was meant for use on non-plasma. If you want to say its interaction with plasma is bugged, you'd have to determine if that was ever its intended use, or not. Otherwise, my point stands.
I am going to have to disagree with you there. The consoles:
-) add a plasma dot to non-plasma energy weapons
-)have multiple plasma dots apply simultaneously to the target based on a, "if one console procs, they all proc", mechanic
-) Have the damage of the dot increase dramatically when upgraded to Epic
-) Have +Beam & +Cannon consoles increase the dot damage significantly
-) Have BFaW increase the proc chance (CSV is still being tested)
So, you're arguing for the above to remain in the game, but in a reduced capability damage-wise? This not only removes the uniqueness of using plasma energy weapons, but is an insult to plasma energy weapons, and to the community that uses it. I am grateful that I am not one of those people who do, because that reeks of second-class citizen treatment.
My guess? They copy/pasted the tricobalt's code and then changed it to act like the others (multiple hits per target) without lowering the kinetic damage.
On another note, does the particle emission have its extra effect (plasma cloud) when using torpedo spread?
That shows the Neut as underpowered and doing less damage than normal Quantum spreads. The opposite to what the devs say which worries me. It looks like the devs are about to over nerf the Neut torp.
The problem with the Neutronic Torpedo's drain is the fact that it lasts less than a second rather than the listed 6 second duration. The EPS debuff also doesn't last the full duration and the stats sheet doesn't even update in time to see that it is working at all. A power drain and EPS debuff that lasts less than a second really doesn't even do anything. Now the power drain failing to obtain resists from Power Insulators would be a problem if the duration were fixed, but as it stands the lack of debuff duration makes this a non-issue.
There is some sort of weird mechanism at work here.
Why?
You shoot one torp, no 6 second drain, goes down and comes right back up.
You shoot TS3, you get a good initial drain and 1 of the drains sticks for 6 seconds.
I keep thinking the coder fell asleep while making this torpedo.
Posting the numbers that I have to keep the discussion going.
Test conducted w/ no gear except for the two torps + the Gel pack for the cdr + radDMG increase. Spec maxed out flowcaps and kinetic damage.
Analysis pending confirmation by Vel:
(unless otherwise stated, all numbers are *Pre-Resist* Holodeck values)
Neutronic Epic XIV - base: 8655.8
Kinetic Dmg Only
Total N TS3 HY3
AVG 10698.82 12812.52 9577.98
MIN 7821.02 9759.8 6699.78
MAX 20551.6 25387.1 18379.9
Hits
AVG 8627.50 10923.90 7428.52
MIN 7821.02 9759.8 6699.78
MAX 9504.31 11855.7 8186.22
Crits
AVG 18984.11 23255.49 16742.83
MIN 17345.8 20978.4 15087.1
MAX 20551.6 25387.1 18379.9
Total
% AVG of Norm 100 119.76 89.52
% MIN of Norm 100 124.79 85.66
% MAX of Norm 100 123.53 89.43
Hits
% AVG of Norm 100 126.62 86.10
% MIN of Norm 100 124.79 85.66
% MAX of Norm 100 124.74 86.13
Crits
% AVG of Norm 100 122.50 88.19
% MIN of Norm 100 120.94 86.98
% MAX of Norm 100 123.53 89.43
***With 36% reduction:***
AVG Hit % 81.03
AVG Crit % 78.40
Total DMG TS3 (3) Total DMG HY3 (4)
AVG Hit 6991.30 7428.52 20973.89 29714.08
AVG Crit 14883.52 16742.83 44650.55 66971.33
Total N TS3 HY3
AVG 8603.98 5139.09 7395.17
MIN 4405.14 3783.83 4711.98
MAX 19138.9 11638.9 14906.5
Hits
AVG 7032.05 4165.48 5219.37
MIN 4405.14 3783.83 4711.98
MAX 7802.5 4590.13 5744.76
Crits
AVG 18349.98 10688.68 14047.58
MIN 17166.3 9606.89 13595.9
MAX 19138.9 11638.9 14906.5
Total
% AVG of Norm 100 59.73 85.95
% MIN of Norm 100 85.90 106.97
% MAX of Norm 100 60.81 77.89
Hits
% AVG of Norm 100 59.24 74.22
% MIN of Norm 100 85.90 106.97
% MAX of Norm 100 58.83 73.63
Crits
% AVG of Norm 100 58.25 76.55
% MIN of Norm 100 55.96 79.20
% MAX of Norm 100 60.81 77.89
TS3 HY3 Total DMG TS3 (4) Total DMG HY3 (4)
AVG Hit 4165.48 5219.37 16661.91 20877.50
AVG Crit 10688.68 14047.58 42754.72 56190.31
HY3 CritDMG ratio HY3 HitDMG ratio
per torp 1.3142 1.2530
per salvo 1.3142 1.2530
Comparing the HY aspect to the TS aspect, we have all been stating (anecdotally) that HY hits for less than what we were expecting. Making the assumption that the Quantum HY to TS ratio is valid, we used that as our baseline for comparison.
Quantum:
Total DMG TS3 (4) Total DMG HY3 (4)
AVG Hit 4165.48 5219.37 16661.91 20877.50
AVG Crit 10688.68 14047.58 42754.72 56190.31
HY3 CritDMG ratio HY3 HitDMG ratio
per torp 1.3142 1.2530
per salvo 1.3142 1.2530
This is a 4 torp to 3 torp comparison for Neutronic, vs a 4 torp to 4 torp comparison for the Quantum. Comparing the per-torp numbers, we see the Quant HY ratio performing better than the adjusted Neutronic HY ratio.
NeutRatio/QuantRatio
HY3 CritDMG ratio HY3 HitDMG ratio
0.8559 0.8480
So, if we want to have Neutronic follow the same performance metric as the Quantum, an adjustment of this ratio upwards by about 15% for HY3 is needed. Scale accordingly for each rank of HY.
-) Power Drain is applied only once in both firing modes, but it spikes for HY3 to expected values for < 1s before returning to a 1-application value for 6sec.
-) Radiation damage applied to shields = 2/3 full radDMG, regardless of resist ratings tested.
-) Radiation values for HY = Norm. TS3 value > HY3.
Suggestions:
-) Suggested to reduce the TS3 Rad value by 10% and apply new value to HY3
-) Suggested to add a working radRES mechanic, or remove said mechanic.
-) Suggested to add Power Drain mechanic for each torp fired, and is stackable. Adjust value as necessary. Value improved by flowcaps (already implemented)
-) Suggested to apply Power Insulator values to counter Power Drain
-) Suggested to make Power Drain removable via Science Team
-) Suggested no restrictions to replenish drained energy for affected target(s)
-) Suggested Power Drain function up to 3km from impact, with reduction of effect based on distance from epicenter.
While I'm glad that:
1) The damage from tac abilities is being fixed
2) The power insulators are being taken into considerations for the drain component
There is still the issue of that drain proc and how it works.
Functions fine from testing - You get hit by 1 torpedo from a normal launch and it procs correctly and it sticks for 6 seconds.
Buggy - You get hit by multiple torpedoes, initially, you get drained from every strike, but only 1 proc sticks for 6 seconds.
I would really like to know if the whole drain proc not sticking on more than one torpedo hit is an issue or not.
Yes, I asked for resistances to be added, but on the flip side, getting hit by multiple torpedoes should mean you get stuck with the 6 sec drain from each one. Right now you get hit by all the drains, but only one sticks.
I would really like to know if the whole drain proc not sticking on more than one torpedo hit is an issue or not.
Yes, I asked for resistances to be added, but on the flip side, getting hit by multiple torpedoes should mean you get stuck with the 6 sec drain from each one. Right now you get hit by all the drains, but only one sticks.
I have confirmed that the last torpedo to hit resets the timer to 6 seconds regardless of firing mode (unless if it bugs out, then it's instantly gone, but that's an extreme rarity).
I made some suggestions on my previous posts, but it's up to them to see if they want to implement any of them in some fashion.
Um, what needs to happen, is everyone.....pvp, and pve, and cryptic, perfect world, needs to get a grip. We need to go back to star trek lore. and look at what the story lines have to offer, on power, damage, distance, types of weapons..etc.. Beams have always been a precise weapon, that would mean Acc. in the game. The exception to that would be the spinal or lance type beams, which on overload should do the most beam dam. in the game. Just follow the various story lines of TV and Movies. and do accordingly. Its not really hard.
Cannons at close range should be the most powerful energy weapon in the game or the amount of power to fire one needs to be reduced by 50% at least. or increase the firing arc. to compensate for the extreme differences. Torps. again follow the story line, if it is powerful, then it is, if it is extreme long range, or if it goes threw shields then it goes threw shields....etc. and if a shield is down, a torp. should basically rip a ships hull wide open. a high yield, should be a one shot kill if the shield is down....etc. common sense kind of things. For cannons the cannon rapid fire should be the equal to a beam overload, or at the very least, a 100% of all proc. while in rapid fire mode. Hence balance.
Other examples, subsystem attacks...if you hits engines, there should be a small chance of a core breach, like the shows, now weapons, and aux. just have those with longer timers or small chance of damage requiring a repair. Shields, same with a small chance of knocking the shields out completely, instead of just one facing. Lets see other imbalances, reputation weapons that you have to buy with dilithum should either have a 25% reduction in firing delay (they fire faster) or they should have the same ability of three stats, since their damage is slightly less, than normal weapons. Fleet weapons, same thing....all this work , time and expense for very little reward. I guess on fleet the proc. can be bumped up to 5 or 7% so as to balance things. And yes sorry, someone who has been playing the game since the beginning, and is in a elite fleet, is simply put going to have better gear, that you can not simply just buy off the self....what then would be the point? Also the Vet. ships, a destroyer, has shield ratings like that of a sci or crusier. Again what is the point in owning a ship, which gives no real benefit, than something you can buy??
As for pvp and fairness, well, it sucks, but I was there at one time, and I either played the vet. players , lost, learned something, and then as time went on, I got better gear, and bonuses, and was finally able to meet them in battle. Someone should not be able to come to the game, buy a ship, and gear, and be top of the ranks over night...Just does not work that way. Now do you wish to make separate sets of gear for pve and pvp....? Sounds like more bank space to me, that does both.
Oh and the torp. in question....do not reduce the damage, just increase the timer by 5 sec. or something.....something very simple...who knows, this torp. may indeed be this powerful, we are venturing into new ground as far as story lines go.
Would it be possible, perhaps, to get a response...holy or unholy, ahem...
...regarding the other end of the spectrum regarding TS and other torps?
Basically torps like Chrons, Trans, and even Elachi getting a subpar boost from TS?
It looks like they get the incremental boost, I believe, that you wanted for going TS1->TS2->TS3, but because their TS1 is a lower boost they also end up with lower TS2 & TS3.
Comments
The bad thing is, that you dear Virus know as well as anyone else, that this games tool tips are at most times incorrect and, very misleading which leads us to example results like you described.
We (as in people like yourself), are the one's who do the actual testing most often for the Dev's and, they decide if they agree with our (meaning player(s)) findings, than they may make proper changes for balance purposes or, they may state it was all WAI but, wasn't displaying it as such!
Always the battle of what is WAI and, what isn't WAI!
Either way, keep the chin up and, nice report!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Me? Look over stuff? I'm the junior assistant to the assistant guy...I babble forth a bunch of raw data for the smart guys out there to explain to me.
It's rough at times, because of that range on damage - but with TS3 at least, heh, you can grab enough samples pretty quickly to see that your numbers are falling within a range above or below that tooltip number or if they're nowhere near that tooltip number. It's not precise though...can't remember if they ever told us what percentage range the numbers would land in +/- that tooltip number to be able to check if things were in range or not. Meh...
It's all in their programming logic, the math formulas they devise to factor such things but, we still have to test for ourselves, otherwise how else do we know what is and, isn't WAI since we do not get the complete information at our disposal to go over, as to we do not get the raw formula they incorporated into their programming less they themselves tell us!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
1) No traits & no gear except for the Bio-Neural Gel pack (13.8% radiation damage increase + 20% cool down reduction on Neutronic)
2) Tested on hull with 44.8% kinetic resist (no extensive shield tests conducted for this test).
3) Epic Neutronic XIV vs Epic Quantum XIV CritDx3[Pen]
For the short test (less than 500 shots)...
Initial review w/ a Mk I eyeball are as follows:
TS3 Test
- Neutronic (Kinetic + Radiation) Avg dmg per hit = 4354.17 (16.67% crit rate)
- Quantum (Kinetic) Avg dmg per hit = 3992.87 (25% crit rate)
HY3 Tests
- Neutronic (Kinetic + Radiation) Avg dmg per hit = 3112.86 (16.67% crit rate)
- Quantum (Kinetic) Avg dmg per hit = 4008.68 (16.67% crit rate)
NOTE on drain component:
For a target with 26 in the Power Insulator stat, the drain component matched the tooltip. In all firing modes, the drain lasted ~6 seconds (slightly longer for TS & HY, as it refreshes the counter upon impact of the final projectile). In both the TS & HY firing modes, the drain component spikes to values expected as if each projectile applied the drain value additively, but this spike lasts for less than one second.
Conclusion: Small-scale tests provide justification for further investigation of the performance between the two projectiles. Next testing will include sample sizes of at least 1000 shots for each firing mode, including normal shot mode under the same conditions.
**EDIT: Included in the next test would be an analysis of the average radiation and kinetic damage applied per projectile for each firing mode, with a focus on the TS3 firing mode. Once an average value for kinetic damage can be extracted, the 36% kinetic damage reduction will be applied in order to assess the proposed change.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Assumption #2 - Radiation damage applies full damage to shields for each projectile launched in each firing mode.
Assumption #3 - HY3 firing mode provides lower radiation damage than a normal shot or TS3 mode (as per tooltip).
Hypothesis - The Neutronic torpedo applies more potential damage to shielded targets in TS3 firing mode due to targets low Power insulator values (which lowers shield strength), plus radiation damage being applied to the (weakened) shields.
In a perfect scenario for maximum Neutronic kinetic damage, the following occurs in this order:
1) Drain is applied
2) Radiation damage is applied
3) Kinetic damage is applied
Targets with low shield values and low Power Insulator values will potentially receive the most damage from Neutronic torpedo. Multiple targets within 3km will be affected by additional drain and radiation effects at a rate of 1+n, up to a maximum of 5n.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Good morning Bort.
Yes, that covers it. Torpedo ignores the target's PI when draining.
Now, for multiple hits, is the current way it's working correct? Seems only 1 of the drains sticks.
Some people (haven't checked on this and can't until later) say that 1 torpedo hit's drain doesn't stick around for 6 seconds. From what I read from the previous guy that posted, the torp affects a 3km area, so it might worth the checking that all that is working as intended. (Mult targets affected AND drain sticking for 6 secs on all of them).
That got me curious, so I did just at tooltip look in the Sol System (not bothering to check what's on the guy that could affect it, not stripping it down, just quick slotted the VR12 Neutronic on to the boat)...
Normal: 6649.8 Kinetic & 951.1 Rad
TS3: 8004.5x3 Kinetic & 1030.1 Rad
TS2: 8004.5x3 Kinetic & 1030.1 Rad
TS1: 8004.5x3 Kinetic & 1030.1 Rad
HY3: 5717.9x4 Kinetic & 951.1 Rad
HY2: 6686.1x3 Kinetic & 951.1 Rad
HY1: 8638.6x2 Kinetic & 951.1 Rad
8004.5 / 6649.8 = 1.2037
1030.1 / 951.1 = 1.0830
Hrmm, not what I was expecting. Okay, so let me remove the 2pc Nukara.
Normal: 6497.6 / 929.3
TS: 7821.2 / 1006.5
7821.2 / 6497.6 = 1.2037
1006.5 / 929.3 = 1.0830
So it's definitely something tied to the Weapon Enhancement Bonus...even though it's providing a different amount of bonus to the Rad than to the Kinetic...and not applying to the HY at all.
Meh, went to check the E-Bio Photon, but it doesn't list the Rad damage for the Spreads, just the same Rad damage for the HY as the Standard. So can't compare there...hrmmm.
So what's causing the boost to the Rad with the TS...and is there anything else like that taking place with other torps?
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=22160051&postcount=40
in some discussion about it ingame, what we came to is that it still doesn't beat conventional dps and the only thing it's done is revitalize ships that were useless before
ship and build diversity is a good thing
I would have like to have done more testing for all of the weapons, but I need to make a living & feed my family
I'd like to thank the following people for serving as target dummies:
@xiixiis
@Trill_Scientist
@massamune
Testing conditions:
-) Aggressor (myself) has max skills in kinetic/projectile and flowcaps.
-) Aggressor had no traits or gear except for the following
- Neutronic Projectile (Epic XIV)
- Quantum Projectile (Epic XIV CritDx3[Pen] )
- Gel pack
-) Aggressor's stats (via stats page):
ACC 20.00%
CritH 8.00%
CritD 57.50%
-) Tests were done to shields and then to hull for Normal (N), Torpedo Spread 3 (TS3) and High Yield 3 (HY3)
-) Player resists were recorded and they match up properly with combatlog data.
Brief on the results:
1) Radiation damage seems to have a flat ~1/3 resistance to shields vs the players we tested (with various Radiation resists).
2) [Already confirmed by the Devs] Power Insulators had no effect on the power drain affect.
3) Only one torpedo applies one stack of power drain for the full six seconds ~99.99% of the time (with the very rare occurrence of the drain only lasting for ~<1s). All other torps apply a 'spike' drain for ~<1s 100% of the time, regardless of the firing mode.
4) There appears to be a single role for hit-or-crit in determining the damage of Neutronic's kinetic and radiation damage. If a crit is rolled, they both crit. If a hit is determined, they both hit. There are zero (0) occurrences of a mix hit & crit.
5) The damage range for both the Quantum and Neutronic are interesting to look at. I want my work reviewed before posting the numbers, but the disparity between N, TS3, and HY3 is very noticeable for each torpedo (this includes the 36% reduction in Neutronic's TS3 damage).
6)Neutronic TS3 radiation damage is higher than Neutronic N & HY radiation damage (which are the same). Is this intended?
7) Awaiting numbers check, but the per-torp damage ratio between TS3 and HY3 (pre and post 36% adjustment) looks odd. The trick is in trying to determine what the intent is, and then provide proper advice as to where the numbers need to be adjusted. Is the Quantum or the Neutronic the baseline, or, should Neutronic be a special case since it's a rep torp? If so, do all other rep torps follow the same rules (Gravimetric, Enhanced Bio, etc)?
**EDIT: I agree that the TS3 & 2 numbers DO need to be adjusted downward for Neutronic, but the tests have raised more questions than provided answers.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
The problem with the Neutronic Torpedo's drain is the fact that it lasts less than a second rather than the listed 6 second duration. The EPS debuff also doesn't last the full duration and the stats sheet doesn't even update in time to see that it is working at all. A power drain and EPS debuff that lasts less than a second really doesn't even do anything. Now the power drain failing to obtain resists from Power Insulators would be a problem if the duration were fixed, but as it stands the lack of debuff duration makes this a non-issue.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Get it right. They set the console to do X, and the other console to do Y. They interact logically as they should. The result is more powerful than "expected" but not bugged.
Why then does it have a percent boost for actual plasma damage instead of the DoT if it wasn't for actual plasma weapons? The DoT seems a tacked on consolation prize for non-plasma weapons.
I will agree that the torp needs some changes it is a bit over powered. However why in the world would you take away something that helps folks compete with the HUGE OVER POWER of these beam boats that are running 50, 75 and even some that are over 100k in DPS? its like cryptic wants not only to dictate to us whats fun and what is not (i.e. NWS) but you want to dictate in what kind of ship and weps we use as well. When do the developers of this game see that we all do not want to use beam weapons and yet unless we do we can't compete with them. So I want to know when are the developers going to put the same urgency on nerfing beam boats as they have with cannon builds? Like cannons lose power after 5k beams stay strong though out. Cannons use vast amount of power Beam FAW III doesn't drain power below 120. These types of under balances make the game far less fun that it should be. I don't want to just pull above my target and have one hand hitting the space bar my my other hand can be free to hold coffee, the phone, or what ever else that may come to mind. I want to play aggressive and I ask you to consider this when you are making your nerfs a priority.
Then later on you said after the fix the number of torpedoes is unchanged. So we end up with less torpedoes and less damage? Wont that be an over nerf?
Any chance you can look at the Thoron Mines from the Delta Reputation store which are still completely broken. No proc, no thoron bonus. 20,000 dilithium and basic Quantum mines are dropped instead of Thoron mines.
I've heard about this, but haven't gotten around to testing it. IMHO, a complete review is needed for all weapons. My strong suit is in the Kinetics because I didn't want to run a cookie-cutter beam boat, and cannons do not perform to the same scale as they did back in 2011-2012.
The game could use some serious diversity in weapon use and team coordination. The Undine Space STO's are a good step in the right direction, but the power creep (tsunami) eroded the team aspect and coordination part.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
I am going to have to disagree with you there. The consoles:
-) add a plasma dot to non-plasma energy weapons
-)have multiple plasma dots apply simultaneously to the target based on a, "if one console procs, they all proc", mechanic
-) Have the damage of the dot increase dramatically when upgraded to Epic
-) Have +Beam & +Cannon consoles increase the dot damage significantly
-) Have BFaW increase the proc chance (CSV is still being tested)
So, you're arguing for the above to remain in the game, but in a reduced capability damage-wise? This not only removes the uniqueness of using plasma energy weapons, but is an insult to plasma energy weapons, and to the community that uses it. I am grateful that I am not one of those people who do, because that reeks of second-class citizen treatment.
A complete weapons review is needed.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
That shows the Neut as underpowered and doing less damage than normal Quantum spreads. The opposite to what the devs say which worries me. It looks like the devs are about to over nerf the Neut torp.
There is some sort of weird mechanism at work here.
Why?
You shoot one torp, no 6 second drain, goes down and comes right back up.
You shoot TS3, you get a good initial drain and 1 of the drains sticks for 6 seconds.
I keep thinking the coder fell asleep while making this torpedo.
Test conducted w/ no gear except for the two torps + the Gel pack for the cdr + radDMG increase. Spec maxed out flowcaps and kinetic damage.
Analysis pending confirmation by Vel:
(unless otherwise stated, all numbers are *Pre-Resist* Holodeck values)
Neutronic Epic XIV - base: 8655.8
Kinetic Dmg Only
Total N TS3 HY3
AVG 10698.82 12812.52 9577.98
MIN 7821.02 9759.8 6699.78
MAX 20551.6 25387.1 18379.9
Hits
AVG 8627.50 10923.90 7428.52
MIN 7821.02 9759.8 6699.78
MAX 9504.31 11855.7 8186.22
Crits
AVG 18984.11 23255.49 16742.83
MIN 17345.8 20978.4 15087.1
MAX 20551.6 25387.1 18379.9
Total
% AVG of Norm 100 119.76 89.52
% MIN of Norm 100 124.79 85.66
% MAX of Norm 100 123.53 89.43
Hits
% AVG of Norm 100 126.62 86.10
% MIN of Norm 100 124.79 85.66
% MAX of Norm 100 124.74 86.13
Crits
% AVG of Norm 100 122.50 88.19
% MIN of Norm 100 120.94 86.98
% MAX of Norm 100 123.53 89.43
***With 36% reduction:***
AVG Hit % 81.03
AVG Crit % 78.40
Total DMG TS3 (3) Total DMG HY3 (4)
AVG Hit 6991.30 7428.52 20973.89 29714.08
AVG Crit 14883.52 16742.83 44650.55 66971.33
*********************************************************************
Quantum Epic XIV CritDx3[Pen] - base: 7097
Total N TS3 HY3
AVG 8603.98 5139.09 7395.17
MIN 4405.14 3783.83 4711.98
MAX 19138.9 11638.9 14906.5
Hits
AVG 7032.05 4165.48 5219.37
MIN 4405.14 3783.83 4711.98
MAX 7802.5 4590.13 5744.76
Crits
AVG 18349.98 10688.68 14047.58
MIN 17166.3 9606.89 13595.9
MAX 19138.9 11638.9 14906.5
Total
% AVG of Norm 100 59.73 85.95
% MIN of Norm 100 85.90 106.97
% MAX of Norm 100 60.81 77.89
Hits
% AVG of Norm 100 59.24 74.22
% MIN of Norm 100 85.90 106.97
% MAX of Norm 100 58.83 73.63
Crits
% AVG of Norm 100 58.25 76.55
% MIN of Norm 100 55.96 79.20
% MAX of Norm 100 60.81 77.89
TS3 HY3 Total DMG TS3 (4) Total DMG HY3 (4)
AVG Hit 4165.48 5219.37 16661.91 20877.50
AVG Crit 10688.68 14047.58 42754.72 56190.31
HY3 CritDMG ratio HY3 HitDMG ratio
per torp 1.3142 1.2530
per salvo 1.3142 1.2530
*********************************************************************
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Quantum:
Total DMG TS3 (4) Total DMG HY3 (4)
AVG Hit 4165.48 5219.37 16661.91 20877.50
AVG Crit 10688.68 14047.58 42754.72 56190.31
HY3 CritDMG ratio HY3 HitDMG ratio
per torp 1.3142 1.2530
per salvo 1.3142 1.2530
**********************************************************************
Neutronic (with 36% kinetic DMG reduction for TS3):
HY3 CritDMG ratio HY3 HitDMG ratio
per torp 1.1249 1.0625
per salvo 1.4999 1.4167
Pre36% Crit Pre36% Hit (for comparison)
0.7200 0.6800
0.9599 0.9067
**********************************************************************
This is a 4 torp to 3 torp comparison for Neutronic, vs a 4 torp to 4 torp comparison for the Quantum. Comparing the per-torp numbers, we see the Quant HY ratio performing better than the adjusted Neutronic HY ratio.
NeutRatio/QuantRatio
HY3 CritDMG ratio HY3 HitDMG ratio
0.8559 0.8480
So, if we want to have Neutronic follow the same performance metric as the Quantum, an adjustment of this ratio upwards by about 15% for HY3 is needed. Scale accordingly for each rank of HY.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
-) Radiation damage applied to shields = 2/3 full radDMG, regardless of resist ratings tested.
-) Radiation values for HY = Norm. TS3 value > HY3.
Suggestions:
-) Suggested to reduce the TS3 Rad value by 10% and apply new value to HY3
-) Suggested to add a working radRES mechanic, or remove said mechanic.
-) Suggested to add Power Drain mechanic for each torp fired, and is stackable. Adjust value as necessary. Value improved by flowcaps (already implemented)
-) Suggested to apply Power Insulator values to counter Power Drain
-) Suggested to make Power Drain removable via Science Team
-) Suggested no restrictions to replenish drained energy for affected target(s)
-) Suggested Power Drain function up to 3km from impact, with reduction of effect based on distance from epicenter.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
thanks bort,
regards
1) The damage from tac abilities is being fixed
2) The power insulators are being taken into considerations for the drain component
There is still the issue of that drain proc and how it works.
Functions fine from testing - You get hit by 1 torpedo from a normal launch and it procs correctly and it sticks for 6 seconds.
Buggy - You get hit by multiple torpedoes, initially, you get drained from every strike, but only 1 proc sticks for 6 seconds.
Yes, I asked for resistances to be added, but on the flip side, getting hit by multiple torpedoes should mean you get stuck with the 6 sec drain from each one. Right now you get hit by all the drains, but only one sticks.
I have confirmed that the last torpedo to hit resets the timer to 6 seconds regardless of firing mode (unless if it bugs out, then it's instantly gone, but that's an extreme rarity).
I made some suggestions on my previous posts, but it's up to them to see if they want to implement any of them in some fashion.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Cannons at close range should be the most powerful energy weapon in the game or the amount of power to fire one needs to be reduced by 50% at least. or increase the firing arc. to compensate for the extreme differences. Torps. again follow the story line, if it is powerful, then it is, if it is extreme long range, or if it goes threw shields then it goes threw shields....etc. and if a shield is down, a torp. should basically rip a ships hull wide open. a high yield, should be a one shot kill if the shield is down....etc. common sense kind of things. For cannons the cannon rapid fire should be the equal to a beam overload, or at the very least, a 100% of all proc. while in rapid fire mode. Hence balance.
Other examples, subsystem attacks...if you hits engines, there should be a small chance of a core breach, like the shows, now weapons, and aux. just have those with longer timers or small chance of damage requiring a repair. Shields, same with a small chance of knocking the shields out completely, instead of just one facing. Lets see other imbalances, reputation weapons that you have to buy with dilithum should either have a 25% reduction in firing delay (they fire faster) or they should have the same ability of three stats, since their damage is slightly less, than normal weapons. Fleet weapons, same thing....all this work , time and expense for very little reward. I guess on fleet the proc. can be bumped up to 5 or 7% so as to balance things. And yes sorry, someone who has been playing the game since the beginning, and is in a elite fleet, is simply put going to have better gear, that you can not simply just buy off the self....what then would be the point? Also the Vet. ships, a destroyer, has shield ratings like that of a sci or crusier. Again what is the point in owning a ship, which gives no real benefit, than something you can buy??
As for pvp and fairness, well, it sucks, but I was there at one time, and I either played the vet. players , lost, learned something, and then as time went on, I got better gear, and bonuses, and was finally able to meet them in battle. Someone should not be able to come to the game, buy a ship, and gear, and be top of the ranks over night...Just does not work that way. Now do you wish to make separate sets of gear for pve and pvp....? Sounds like more bank space to me, that does both.
Oh and the torp. in question....do not reduce the damage, just increase the timer by 5 sec. or something.....something very simple...who knows, this torp. may indeed be this powerful, we are venturing into new ground as far as story lines go.
Would it be possible, perhaps, to get a response...holy or unholy, ahem...
...regarding the other end of the spectrum regarding TS and other torps?
Basically torps like Chrons, Trans, and even Elachi getting a subpar boost from TS?
It looks like they get the incremental boost, I believe, that you wanted for going TS1->TS2->TS3, but because their TS1 is a lower boost they also end up with lower TS2 & TS3.