So... Should we apply the [Stl] deflector mod bug time frame base line to extrapolate the eta on a fix for this torp?
ROFL, normally I make a snarky comment and repost all the old bugs I've reported and are still hanging in the gameplay bugs report, but Frost has appeased me.
Sorry you feel that way, but the torpedo is very broken. The fact that you spent resources getting it doesn't mean it's working as intended. This is not the first time they release a torpedo that works too well thanks to it being buggy (Remember the biomulecular one?). It needs to get fixed, and that's all there is too it.
The numbers are off and it's clear to see. It doesn't make any sense that the kinetic damage from each torp using torp spread should be greater than the individual torps. You want more bugs? The high yield torp seems to have been written like the more weaker torps (like transphasic) and even that is buggy. High yield 1 is extremely more effective than high yield 2 and 3. They need to review all the tactical torp skills numbers with these torps.
IMHO, a complete review of projectiles & mines (heck, all kinetic-based weapons, set bonuses, and effects/procs) is needed. The scaling of upgrades is not consistent between AND WITHIN the sub-class for each torp (photon, quantum, their reputation equivalents, etc).
The problem is not in the power of the torp, but how people want to lazily be OP themselves. AstroZombie and I do a 1v1 PvP match on occasion, and he can withstand multiple TS3 bombardments w/ Neutronic because he has built his ship to counter it. Do I cry that he's OP? If he can withstand MULTIPLE TS3's/HY3's w/ cd's popped (TF/IF, GDF, APO), does that make him OP? Does he need to be nerfed? What happens when a SS1 guy shows up and vapes him whle just popping APO + OSS1? Is that guy suddenly OP? Should he be nerfed, too?
Taking things in an isolated circumstance without seeing both the small scale implications and the overall big picture, is, imho, extremely dangerous and unfair when you are attempting to advocate for parity (assuming that IS your intention). If someone is just butthurt that they lost in a PvP match because a handful of people figured out how to focus their build to maximize a weapon that does have a hard counter, go back to the kiddie pool until you can learn to swim in the ocean.
This is not to say that there are not issues (go look at the bug reports and the awesome suggestions by the community on how to fix it), but don't nit-pick on one item because you had a very bad experience taking the receiving end of <insert item/ability here>. The entire game needs a proper overhaul (or even a rebuild from the ground up).
PS. Neutronic's true strength is not in the kinetic damage that it does, and even that component is not WAI *AGAINST* Neutronic users. HINT: Flowcaps. If it worked properly for the proper time alloted for it in all firing modes, even more people would be crying.
i agree that a wide sweeping review is something we need for weapons in general torps beams cannnons all of them.
atm cryptic has focused on the story line and making the game more challenging but because of the oddities and outlying equipment they increased challenge by putting more hp and lower timers on things, based on what a decent margin of players could put out however that was a slightly inaccurate change.
so as much as we all hate things being "nerfed" should we not be aiming to push the devs in a direction that in the end will make the game more fun for everyone? I mean noone likes having little chance of success in pve if they are not using some of these overperforming mechanics. And noone likes going into pvp and getting poped 9/10 if they dont have lightning reflexes.
so in summery why not aim for the closest balance we can get if it would lead to more fun and enjoyment?
if you detest nerfs then online gaming is not for you. i would suggest moving to a different type of game or getting used to it.
HINT: Flowcaps. If it worked properly for the proper time alloted for it in all firing modes, even more people would be crying.
Lol, did you not see my post with the picture in this thread? I have my flow caps just 10 points below the max base amount. That torp drains power without even taking into consideration power insulators. That being said, the torp spread drain is junk because only 1 of the drains sticks after the initial strike. It drains more initially, but you get the extra power drained back very quickly. The whole part where it drains ignoring power insulators is also broken. The torpedo seems to have been something put together haphazardly at last minute and without enough testing.
I apologize for allowing it to take this long before reviewing the Neutronic+TS issue. This thread finally pulled the issue back to the front of our radar, so we were able to spend some time to verify the reports.
Yes, the torpedo is bugged.
The current magnitude values being referenced by all ranks of Torpedo Spread is incorrect, pointing to the wrong variables, which results in far more damage output than is intended for any torpedo launcher. The same is also true for this weapon when used with Rank II and III of Transport Warhead, except it's dealing far less damage than intended.
After correcting the issue, the Neutronic Torpedo will begin scaling its damage in the same manner as other torpedoes: Each individual hit deals less damage when using Spread, but there are more torpedoes overall, still resulting in a damage increase, rank-over-rank.
In the end, the following adjustments are being made:
Torpedo Spread:
- Torpedo Spread 1 = Base Damage increased by ~42% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 2 = Base Damage reduced by ~17% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 3 = Base Damage reduced by ~36% per Torpedo
- Number of torpedoes and damage of Radiation AOE remain unchanged
Transport Warhead:
- Transport Warhead 1 = Unchanged
- Transport Warhead 2 = Base Damage increased by ~17%
- Transport Warhead 3 = Base Damage increased by ~33%
- Damage of Radiation AOE remains unchanged
In the review that resulted in the above changes, we performed extensive comparisons to the scaling of many other Torpedo types, including both basic Quantum launchers, and unique launchers like the Gravimetric Photon Torpedo, in order to arrive at a level of scaling that adhered to the relative scales used in the rest of the game. And, even after these adjustments, this Torpedo is still quite a powerhouse, to compensate for its longer recharge cycle. (Which can still be reduced using the related set bonus!)
This review didn't focus on the energy drain aspect of the torpedo's secondary effect, which I see is also reportedly not working correctly. We'll take another look at that very soon.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
I apologize for allowing it to take this long before reviewing the Neutronic+TS issue. This thread finally pulled the issue back to the front of our radar, so we were able to spend some time to verify the reports.
Yes, the torpedo is bugged.
The current magnitude values being referenced by all ranks of Torpedo Spread is incorrect, pointing to the wrong variables, which results in far more damage output than is intended for any torpedo launcher. The same is also true for this weapon when used with Rank II and III of Transport Warhead, except it's dealing far less damage than intended.
After correcting the issue, the Neutronic Torpedo will begin scaling its damage in the same manner as other torpedoes: Each individual hit deals less damage when using Spread, but there are more torpedoes overall, still resulting in a damage increase, rank-over-rank.
In the end, the following adjustments are being made:
Torpedo Spread:
- Torpedo Spread 1 = Base Damage increased by ~42% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 2 = Base Damage reduced by ~17% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 3 = Base Damage reduced by ~36% per Torpedo
- Number of torpedoes and damage of Radiation AOE remain unchanged
Transport Warhead:
- Transport Warhead 1 = Unchanged
- Transport Warhead 2 = Base Damage increased by ~17%
- Transport Warhead 3 = Base Damage increased by ~33%
- Damage of Radiation AOE remains unchanged
In the review that resulted in the above changes, we performed extensive comparisons to the scaling of many other Torpedo types, including both basic Quantum launchers, and unique launchers like the Gravimetric Photon Torpedo, in order to arrive at a level of scaling that adhered to the relative scales used in the rest of the game. And, even after these adjustments, this Torpedo is still quite a powerhouse, to compensate for its longer recharge cycle. (Which can still be reduced using the related set bonus!)
This review didn't focus on the energy drain aspect of the torpedo's secondary effect, which I see is also reportedly not working correctly. We'll take another look at that very soon.
Thank you! While I'd be lying to you in saying that I won't miss the multi-AoE bangs that come from a TS3, I do want to see this fixed as a part of improving overall gameplay. Could you also review the HY numbers, as well as look at the damage scaling for the reputation torps when they change in quality? Thank you.
PS. Don't forget to look at the Embassy Science consoles and their plasma proc rate & damage being enhances at astronomical levels by going to epic quality and boosted by +beam locator consoles.
PS. Don't forget to look at the Embassy Science consoles and their plasma proc rate & damage being enhances at astronomical levels by going to epic quality and boosted by +beam locator consoles.
Yes, we understand the issue here. The plasma procs weren't built in a way that adequately supported upgrading to higher levels/qualities, and were exclusively balanced around lvl 50 content... so we have to figure out a way (and the time) to properly rebuild them.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
I apologize for allowing it to take this long before reviewing the Neutronic+TS issue. This thread finally pulled the issue back to the front of our radar, so we were able to spend some time to verify the reports.
Yes, the torpedo is bugged.
The current magnitude values being referenced by all ranks of Torpedo Spread is incorrect, pointing to the wrong variables, which results in far more damage output than is intended for any torpedo launcher. The same is also true for this weapon when used with Rank II and III of Transport Warhead, except it's dealing far less damage than intended.
After correcting the issue, the Neutronic Torpedo will begin scaling its damage in the same manner as other torpedoes: Each individual hit deals less damage when using Spread, but there are more torpedoes overall, still resulting in a damage increase, rank-over-rank.
In the end, the following adjustments are being made:
Torpedo Spread:
- Torpedo Spread 1 = Base Damage increased by ~42% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 2 = Base Damage reduced by ~17% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 3 = Base Damage reduced by ~36% per Torpedo
- Number of torpedoes and damage of Radiation AOE remain unchanged
Transport Warhead:
- Transport Warhead 1 = Unchanged
- Transport Warhead 2 = Base Damage increased by ~17%
- Transport Warhead 3 = Base Damage increased by ~33%
- Damage of Radiation AOE remains unchanged
In the review that resulted in the above changes, we performed extensive comparisons to the scaling of many other Torpedo types, including both basic Quantum launchers, and unique launchers like the Gravimetric Photon Torpedo, in order to arrive at a level of scaling that adhered to the relative scales used in the rest of the game. And, even after these adjustments, this Torpedo is still quite a powerhouse, to compensate for its longer recharge cycle. (Which can still be reduced using the related set bonus!)
This review didn't focus on the energy drain aspect of the torpedo's secondary effect, which I see is also reportedly not working correctly. We'll take another look at that very soon.
You forgot High Yield is also bugged for it, specially HY2 and HY3.
Yes, we understand the issue here. The plasma procs weren't built in a way that adequately supported upgrading to higher levels/qualities, and were exclusively balanced around lvl 50 content... so we have to figure out a way (and the time) to properly rebuild them.
I look forward to what you will break in the process. Nothing against fixes, but usually in STO you fix one thing and break three others, because who the hell needs a working QA and apreciates feedback from tribble...
Yes, we understand the issue here. The plasma procs weren't built in a way that adequately supported upgrading to higher levels/qualities, and were exclusively balanced around lvl 50 content... so we have to figure out a way (and the time) to properly rebuild them.
Great news. It feels so wrong right now that all of my other weapon types are outperforming plasma at its own thing. As someone who has invested heavily in plasma weapons, I'm glad these console procs will be reigned in.
Waiting for a comment from Bort on High Yield in 3.... 2... 1...
(So the PvE crowd doesn't complain we PvP folk like to nerf everything)
P.S. Not STO related. The wait at this Olive Garden tonight sucks. Everyone decided it was so cold that they wanted to eat out it seems.
I live in FL and it feels cold to me right now. People make me cold getting ice cream when it's 50 F... WTF!
In other news; I really do HOPE they fix te HY component, as well as do a complete torpedo review. I am noticing some oddities w/ the hits I make in the logs, where the HY hit/crit does less damage than the normal hit/crit on avg. Of course, there are outliers... some REALLY BIG ones
'Nuff said. I enjoy the game, and I'd like to enjoy it even more when the vast majority of PvE AND PvP aspects are working as intended.
Great news. It feels so wrong right now that all of my other weapon types are outperforming plasma at its own thing. As someone who has invested heavily in plasma weapons, I'm glad these console procs will be reigned in.
Agreed. I always found it odd that there are consoles tha buffed plasma damage, but for non-plasma weapons, especially to such an absurd value. Makes no sense.
Now if we can keep this constructive feedback going i think we can rebuild our relationship with the devs ^.^ i know its a painful site to see your hard work insulted at times but remember there are still some of us who are trying to be constructive.
again thank you for letting us know that your looking into this and have some ideas of what you want to do about them.
This is why people hate PvPers. "X killed me, X does too much damage / is too effective, nerf it!" while us PvE players in the vast majority suffer the consequences. All we want to do is blow up the NPCs faster and more effectively (and hell, with many of the stupid difficulty increases since DR and even more recently still we NEED that ****), and you people **** it up because you don't like it being used on you.
I would love if they just shut PvP the **** down and let the powers and weapons actually be powerful again.
...Or, they could just nerf the ludicrously-high HP of enemies somewhat, solving BOTH issues. (If they compensated somewhat by giving them more interesting powers and better AI in higher difficulty levels, that would help too.)
High Yield 1 damages higher than the normal torpedo hit and then 2 and 3 are very weak. Programmer took a break after coding 1 and did a mess overall.
this would explain what I have been seeing in my logs, and wondering why a normal Neut shot does more than HY3, but not 1. especially w/ the Sheshar trait (which was stealth fixed. TY.)
Sigh, the one torp in STO that didn't suck, and y'all go and nerf it.
We don't like to "get everything needed", hence why I'm trying to bring attention to High Yield being broken for the same torp.
Heck, I've been working separately to bring the AA console back to its pre-S7 glory (2 years broken). I rarely call for stuff to be scaled back, but this torp with TS3 was way over the top.
so what id like to know is this an actual bug or not
mods if you see this and dont want it here please move it to a dev section and notify them about it.I think its atleast worth their time to know about this sort of issue
I took a look at the Neutronic Torpedo as compared to three other Reputation torpedoes, the Omega Plasmic, Gravametric Photon, and Biomolecular.
I used the same ship, same captain, same tactical Boff and no Doffs. I spawned one of out Target Dummies that has no resistances, just a whole bunch of hull and regen so one can shoot it over and over without it blowing up.
The Neutronic torpedo is higher than all the others, but it also has a much higher cool-down than the others. It's a very good alpha strike weapon, but may not be the best choice if one wants sustained DPS. Even the humble Bio-molecular gets competitive under Torpedo Spread I.
Seeing these numbers, I can't write this up as a bug. I will pass this thread, and Virus Dancer's on to the Systems Team but that's all I can do at this time.
Sigh, the one torp in STO that didn't suck, and y'all go and nerf it.
I am one of those players who'd like to see kinetic weapons get some much needed functionality and love, but not to the point where it's broken in either direction (or both in the case of Neutronic).
It brings up a good issue for PvE (and PvP); If all beams is a viable build (highest mean DPS potential based on current game mechanics), why aren't other build types? (Abstract question) I get what elements of the Command Spec is trying to do by bringing back the hybrid energy + kinetic builds, but the current design affects pure kinetic builds to hybridize to be somewhat effective, ignore Command entirely, or shift to all energy (re: beam) builds.
I know the above is for long-term design direction, but know that if the intent is to shift some of the over 90% of the beam user base to hybridize via the Command Spec, the intent is not matching reality.
I took a look at the Neutronic Torpedo as compared to three other Reputation torpedoes, the Omega Plasmic, Gravametric Photon, and Biomolecular.
I used the same ship, same captain, same tactical Boff and no Doffs. I spawned one of out Target Dummies that has no resistances, just a whole bunch of hull and regen so one can shoot it over and over without it blowing up.
The Neutronic torpedo is higher than all the others, but it also has a much higher cool-down than the others. It's a very good alpha strike weapon, but may not be the best choice if one wants sustained DPS. Even the humble Bio-molecular gets competitive under Torpedo Spread I.
Seeing these numbers, I can't write this up as a bug. I will pass this thread, and Virus Dancer's on to the Systems Team but that's all I can do at this time.
Maybe my tooltips numbers got screwy because of a Cruiser close to me on ESD or someone buffing me? (Why they must constantly click on their commands there is beyond me) Anyway, seems ok then.
Frost, if you got the right numbers then maybe the tooltip for HY1 is the one that broken. It keeps showing the wrong number for me in Holodeck., HY2/3 show reasonable numbers.
Frost, if you got the right numbers then maybe the tooltip for HY1 is the one that broken. It keeps showing the wrong number for me in Holodeck., HY2/3 show reasonable numbers.
I have the logs if you'd like to see the underperforming HY3 Neut. Hence my original assessment of some coefficient swapping of some sort between HY and TS.
You forgot High Yield is also bugged for it, specially HY2 and HY3.
I wish I could make HTML Tables on this board, then I'd share the actual findings I charted out. As it is, it just looks terrible.
Anyway, according to my comparative study of Neutronic vs. a few other Torpedo Types that fire the same "multi projectile" version of High Yield, it looks like Neutronic Torpedo HY 1-3 are hitting slightly harder than normal scaling would dictate. But not to a huge degree.
- HY1 multiplies the damage of a Basic torpedo attack more aggressively for Neutronics than it does for many other torpedoes, by about 15%.
- HY2 and HY3 scale according to the slightly-higher value of HY1, but perfectly in line with the same relative scaling for other Torpedoes (that is, HY2 does 116% of the damage of HY1 for all torpedoes that I checked, including Neutronic, and HY3 is in-line at 133% of HY1).
This goes against the reports I'm getting, of people saying it doesn't hit hard enough. So, I'm somewhat inclined to leave it as-is, despite being on the high end of intended damage scaling.
Remaining issues we probably won't tackle until next week:
- Energy Drain strengths and resistances
- Cooldown reduction Doffs
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Comments
ROFL, normally I make a snarky comment and repost all the old bugs I've reported and are still hanging in the gameplay bugs report, but Frost has appeased me.
IMHO, a complete review of projectiles & mines (heck, all kinetic-based weapons, set bonuses, and effects/procs) is needed. The scaling of upgrades is not consistent between AND WITHIN the sub-class for each torp (photon, quantum, their reputation equivalents, etc).
The problem is not in the power of the torp, but how people want to lazily be OP themselves. AstroZombie and I do a 1v1 PvP match on occasion, and he can withstand multiple TS3 bombardments w/ Neutronic because he has built his ship to counter it. Do I cry that he's OP? If he can withstand MULTIPLE TS3's/HY3's w/ cd's popped (TF/IF, GDF, APO), does that make him OP? Does he need to be nerfed? What happens when a SS1 guy shows up and vapes him whle just popping APO + OSS1? Is that guy suddenly OP? Should he be nerfed, too?
Taking things in an isolated circumstance without seeing both the small scale implications and the overall big picture, is, imho, extremely dangerous and unfair when you are attempting to advocate for parity (assuming that IS your intention). If someone is just butthurt that they lost in a PvP match because a handful of people figured out how to focus their build to maximize a weapon that does have a hard counter, go back to the kiddie pool until you can learn to swim in the ocean.
This is not to say that there are not issues (go look at the bug reports and the awesome suggestions by the community on how to fix it), but don't nit-pick on one item because you had a very bad experience taking the receiving end of <insert item/ability here>. The entire game needs a proper overhaul (or even a rebuild from the ground up).
PS. Neutronic's true strength is not in the kinetic damage that it does, and even that component is not WAI *AGAINST* Neutronic users. HINT: Flowcaps. If it worked properly for the proper time alloted for it in all firing modes, even more people would be crying.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
atm cryptic has focused on the story line and making the game more challenging but because of the oddities and outlying equipment they increased challenge by putting more hp and lower timers on things, based on what a decent margin of players could put out however that was a slightly inaccurate change.
so as much as we all hate things being "nerfed" should we not be aiming to push the devs in a direction that in the end will make the game more fun for everyone? I mean noone likes having little chance of success in pve if they are not using some of these overperforming mechanics. And noone likes going into pvp and getting poped 9/10 if they dont have lightning reflexes.
so in summery why not aim for the closest balance we can get if it would lead to more fun and enjoyment?
if you detest nerfs then online gaming is not for you. i would suggest moving to a different type of game or getting used to it.
Lol, did you not see my post with the picture in this thread? I have my flow caps just 10 points below the max base amount. That torp drains power without even taking into consideration power insulators. That being said, the torp spread drain is junk because only 1 of the drains sticks after the initial strike. It drains more initially, but you get the extra power drained back very quickly. The whole part where it drains ignoring power insulators is also broken. The torpedo seems to have been something put together haphazardly at last minute and without enough testing.
Here: http://tinypic.com/m/ih09k1/3 - Note the 32.4 drain amount.
I apologize for allowing it to take this long before reviewing the Neutronic+TS issue. This thread finally pulled the issue back to the front of our radar, so we were able to spend some time to verify the reports.
Yes, the torpedo is bugged.
The current magnitude values being referenced by all ranks of Torpedo Spread is incorrect, pointing to the wrong variables, which results in far more damage output than is intended for any torpedo launcher. The same is also true for this weapon when used with Rank II and III of Transport Warhead, except it's dealing far less damage than intended.
After correcting the issue, the Neutronic Torpedo will begin scaling its damage in the same manner as other torpedoes: Each individual hit deals less damage when using Spread, but there are more torpedoes overall, still resulting in a damage increase, rank-over-rank.
In the end, the following adjustments are being made:
Torpedo Spread:
- Torpedo Spread 1 = Base Damage increased by ~42% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 2 = Base Damage reduced by ~17% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 3 = Base Damage reduced by ~36% per Torpedo
- Number of torpedoes and damage of Radiation AOE remain unchanged
Transport Warhead:
- Transport Warhead 1 = Unchanged
- Transport Warhead 2 = Base Damage increased by ~17%
- Transport Warhead 3 = Base Damage increased by ~33%
- Damage of Radiation AOE remains unchanged
In the review that resulted in the above changes, we performed extensive comparisons to the scaling of many other Torpedo types, including both basic Quantum launchers, and unique launchers like the Gravimetric Photon Torpedo, in order to arrive at a level of scaling that adhered to the relative scales used in the rest of the game. And, even after these adjustments, this Torpedo is still quite a powerhouse, to compensate for its longer recharge cycle. (Which can still be reduced using the related set bonus!)
This review didn't focus on the energy drain aspect of the torpedo's secondary effect, which I see is also reportedly not working correctly. We'll take another look at that very soon.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Thank you! While I'd be lying to you in saying that I won't miss the multi-AoE bangs that come from a TS3, I do want to see this fixed as a part of improving overall gameplay. Could you also review the HY numbers, as well as look at the damage scaling for the reputation torps when they change in quality? Thank you.
PS. Don't forget to look at the Embassy Science consoles and their plasma proc rate & damage being enhances at astronomical levels by going to epic quality and boosted by +beam locator consoles.
Thank you.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Yes, we understand the issue here. The plasma procs weren't built in a way that adequately supported upgrading to higher levels/qualities, and were exclusively balanced around lvl 50 content... so we have to figure out a way (and the time) to properly rebuild them.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
You forgot High Yield is also bugged for it, specially HY2 and HY3.
I look forward to what you will break in the process. Nothing against fixes, but usually in STO you fix one thing and break three others, because who the hell needs a working QA and apreciates feedback from tribble...
(So the PvE crowd doesn't complain we PvP folk like to nerf everything)
P.S. Not STO related. The wait at this Olive Garden tonight sucks. Everyone decided it was so cold that they wanted to eat out it seems.
Great news. It feels so wrong right now that all of my other weapon types are outperforming plasma at its own thing. As someone who has invested heavily in plasma weapons, I'm glad these console procs will be reigned in.
I live in FL and it feels cold to me right now. People make me cold getting ice cream when it's 50 F... WTF!
In other news; I really do HOPE they fix te HY component, as well as do a complete torpedo review. I am noticing some oddities w/ the hits I make in the logs, where the HY hit/crit does less damage than the normal hit/crit on avg. Of course, there are outliers... some REALLY BIG ones
'Nuff said. I enjoy the game, and I'd like to enjoy it even more when the vast majority of PvE AND PvP aspects are working as intended.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Agreed. I always found it odd that there are consoles tha buffed plasma damage, but for non-plasma weapons, especially to such an absurd value. Makes no sense.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
again thank you for letting us know that your looking into this and have some ideas of what you want to do about them.
...Or, they could just nerf the ludicrously-high HP of enemies somewhat, solving BOTH issues. (If they compensated somewhat by giving them more interesting powers and better AI in higher difficulty levels, that would help too.)
this would explain what I have been seeing in my logs, and wondering why a normal Neut shot does more than HY3, but not 1. especially w/ the Sheshar trait (which was stealth fixed. TY.)
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
We don't like to "get everything needed", hence why I'm trying to bring attention to High Yield being broken for the same torp.
Heck, I've been working separately to bring the AA console back to its pre-S7 glory (2 years broken). I rarely call for stuff to be scaled back, but this torp with TS3 was way over the top.
I took a look at the Neutronic Torpedo as compared to three other Reputation torpedoes, the Omega Plasmic, Gravametric Photon, and Biomolecular.
I used the same ship, same captain, same tactical Boff and no Doffs. I spawned one of out Target Dummies that has no resistances, just a whole bunch of hull and regen so one can shoot it over and over without it blowing up.
Here's what I saw:
Omega Plasma (no cooldown): 1707 Kinetic + (130 * 11 Plasma) = 3137
HY I: 13057 Kinetic + (69 * 16 Plasma) = 14161
TS I: (2208 * 2 Kinetic) + (67 * 11 Plasma) = 5153
Neutronic (15s cooldown): 5715 Kinetic + 822 Radiation = 6537
HY I: (7424 + 822 Radiation) * 2 = 16492
TS I: 7144 Kinetic + 925 Radiation = 8069
Gravimetric Photon (8s cooldown): 4217 Kinetic + (730 * 4 Kinetic [Gravimetric Rift]) = 7137, [averaged over 100 shots] = 5181
HY I: 13712 Kinetic + (730 * 4 Kinetic [Gravimetric Rift]) = 16632, [averaged over 100 shots] 11248
TS I: (3656 * 2 Kinetic) + (730 * 4 Kinetic [Gravimetric Rift]) = 10232, [averaged over 100 shots] 8276
Bio-molecular (6s cooldown): 4217 Kinetic + 722 Radiation = 4939
HY I: 10284 Kinetic + 722 Radiation = 11006
TS I: (3656 * 2 Kinetic) + 722 Radiation = 8034
The Neutronic torpedo is higher than all the others, but it also has a much higher cool-down than the others. It's a very good alpha strike weapon, but may not be the best choice if one wants sustained DPS. Even the humble Bio-molecular gets competitive under Torpedo Spread I.
Seeing these numbers, I can't write this up as a bug. I will pass this thread, and Virus Dancer's on to the Systems Team but that's all I can do at this time.
I am one of those players who'd like to see kinetic weapons get some much needed functionality and love, but not to the point where it's broken in either direction (or both in the case of Neutronic).
It brings up a good issue for PvE (and PvP); If all beams is a viable build (highest mean DPS potential based on current game mechanics), why aren't other build types? (Abstract question) I get what elements of the Command Spec is trying to do by bringing back the hybrid energy + kinetic builds, but the current design affects pure kinetic builds to hybridize to be somewhat effective, ignore Command entirely, or shift to all energy (re: beam) builds.
I know the above is for long-term design direction, but know that if the intent is to shift some of the over 90% of the beam user base to hybridize via the Command Spec, the intent is not matching reality.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Maybe my tooltips numbers got screwy because of a Cruiser close to me on ESD or someone buffing me? (Why they must constantly click on their commands there is beyond me) Anyway, seems ok then.
I have the logs if you'd like to see the underperforming HY3 Neut. Hence my original assessment of some coefficient swapping of some sort between HY and TS.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
i only had images for ts1 due to me being a science guy and not having an escort etc.
and again thanks for taking the time guys this is what builds greatness!
I wish I could make HTML Tables on this board, then I'd share the actual findings I charted out. As it is, it just looks terrible.
Anyway, according to my comparative study of Neutronic vs. a few other Torpedo Types that fire the same "multi projectile" version of High Yield, it looks like Neutronic Torpedo HY 1-3 are hitting slightly harder than normal scaling would dictate. But not to a huge degree.
- HY1 multiplies the damage of a Basic torpedo attack more aggressively for Neutronics than it does for many other torpedoes, by about 15%.
- HY2 and HY3 scale according to the slightly-higher value of HY1, but perfectly in line with the same relative scaling for other Torpedoes (that is, HY2 does 116% of the damage of HY1 for all torpedoes that I checked, including Neutronic, and HY3 is in-line at 133% of HY1).
This goes against the reports I'm getting, of people saying it doesn't hit hard enough. So, I'm somewhat inclined to leave it as-is, despite being on the high end of intended damage scaling.
Remaining issues we probably won't tackle until next week:
- Energy Drain strengths and resistances
- Cooldown reduction Doffs
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=19670841&postcount=136
Virusdancer also has a thread about the neutronic torpedo:
Neutronic Torpedo - TS3, TS2, TS1