Remaining issues we probably won't tackle until next week: - Energy Drain strengths and resistances
I may have been lying, this appears to be easy to fix. It was not flagged properly to allow for resistances, despite being allowed to scale with Flow Capacitors.
I'm having trouble finding a thread explaining the issue as reported by players... does the above cover it? Just that the energy drain is currently unresistable?
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
that does sound about right from what ive heard as well Borticus sounds like it would be an easy test grab someone with no insulators and someone with and compare the drain.
yall are really on the ball latley ^.^ is salami feeding yall steak sandviches for lunch ?
I may have been lying, this appears to be easy to fix. It was not flagged properly to allow for resistances, despite being allowed to scale with Flow Capacitors.
I'm having trouble finding a thread explaining the issue as reported by players... does the above cover it? Just that the energy drain is currently unresistable?
Energy drain was unresistable/unclearable
Energy drain only spiked instead of lasting for the duration (6 seconds) for PvE and PvP.
Not tested/not properly understood: if the Energy Drain is also an AoE effect.
*EDIT* Is the Radiation damage supposed to be lower for HY than TS?
This is the kind of back and forth I like to see. Devs ans players swapping info, getting to the root of a problem, updating and clarifying more info as needed (including explanations), and finally fixing the issue (then continuing the process with secondary issues if needed).
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Could I get some clarification on what base damage is, please? Want to make sure that I am reading and understanding this properly before posting.
Thanks.
*EDIT* Specifically, what the base dmg should be for each torp, including TS, HY, and Transport. I'm seeing some inconsistencies in the logs between HY3 and 1.
Formerly Known as Protector from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
PPS - Could something be done about TS/HY BOff activation, yet no TS/HY being applied to the next shot? Anecdotally, it looks like it's happening with greater frequency.
I may have been lying, this appears to be easy to fix. It was not flagged properly to allow for resistances, despite being allowed to scale with Flow Capacitors.
I'm having trouble finding a thread explaining the issue as reported by players... does the above cover it? Just that the energy drain is currently unresistable?
That pretty much covers it. I shot at myself with more and more PI, no difference.
How about the effect from multiple torp hits where the drain kind of stacks for a sec and then the stacking is lost and one drain remains? Is that working as intended?
I may have been lying, this appears to be easy to fix. It was not flagged properly to allow for resistances, despite being allowed to scale with Flow Capacitors.
I'm having trouble finding a thread explaining the issue as reported by players... does the above cover it? Just that the energy drain is currently unresistable?
No never a lie just say 18% to 16% and everything will be okay.
I wish I could make HTML Tables on this board, then I'd share the actual findings I charted out. As it is, it just looks terrible.
Anyway, according to my comparative study of Neutronic vs. a few other Torpedo Types that fire the same "multi projectile" version of High Yield, it looks like Neutronic Torpedo HY 1-3 are hitting slightly harder than normal scaling would dictate. But not to a huge degree.
- HY1 multiplies the damage of a Basic torpedo attack more aggressively for Neutronics than it does for many other torpedoes, by about 15%.
- HY2 and HY3 scale according to the slightly-higher value of HY1, but perfectly in line with the same relative scaling for other Torpedoes (that is, HY2 does 116% of the damage of HY1 for all torpedoes that I checked, including Neutronic, and HY3 is in-line at 133% of HY1).
This goes against the reports I'm getting, of people saying it doesn't hit hard enough. So, I'm somewhat inclined to leave it as-is, despite being on the high end of intended damage scaling.
Hrmm, so that's curious...so the HY2 and HY3 are based off of the HY1 rather than the HY1, HY2, and HY3 being based off of the Standard?
Say we were to compare Quantums vs. the Neutronic (both are flavors of Quantum). Girlfriend went to sleep after Grimm, so I've got nothing else to do right now...lol. Starting with just the base torpedo, eh?
Quantum is 1503 base, a 8 second CD, and nothing special.
Neutronic is 1830 base, a 15 second CD, and the Neutronic AoE extra bit (3km Rad, -Pwr, -PwrTransfer).
So the Neut gets more damage and the extra bit in exchange for almost twice the CD. Not going to comment on whether that's balanced or not, but it's obviously an attempt at balancing...there's a tradeoff sort of thing going on there.
Okay, the following is just going to be tooltip stuff to start with. The build has 9 Starship Weapon Training, 9 Starship Projectile Weapons, no consoles, no AMP, no Nukara Offensive, no 2pc AMACO/KHG, no Pirate BOFFs (heh, I actually remembered to pull everything without having to go back and yank anything...for the first time).
Like the previous look, I'll go back to those numbers above and do a comparison initially of each vs. the Standard. In addition, I'll do the comparison to the Rank1 enhancement.
Before going any further with dropping out a world of hurt on any NPCs, let's take a quick look at how those compared to the previous numbers (well, the comparison to the Standard).
Give or take some rounding here and there, the Quantum numbers match up to what was seen before (various testing, what one gets (or got) from STOwiki as well, etc, etc, etc). The Neutronic likewise match up (the numbers from testing were slightly lower on average, but within that range).
Still not quite ready to get in there to do some testing (my internet's acting up, so I'm giving it a moment); what we're looking at so far then is...
For the Quantum, the HY2/TS2 are that ~116% of the HY1/TS1, HY3/TS3 are that ~132%(133%) of the HY1/TS1 as you say. For the Neutronic, the HY side plays out with those 116%/132%(133%) angles; but the TS side is hammering by comparison.
So if we just look at the HY side for a moment, yes - as you stated we've got those HY1->HY2 & HY1->HY3 percentages; but those percentages are based off of that HY1 percentage.
Neutronic: 259.81%
Quantum: 222.70%
Which would fall into your (give or take some rounding and other stuff) that ~15% difference. Not that it's 222.7 + 15, but that it's 222.7 * 1.15 (1.167ish).
Which means for HY2, even if both are ~16% better than HY1...
Neutronic: 301.64%
Quantum: 258.55%
That 16.67% better from the HY1 is being maintained. So what was the 37.11% (259.81 - 222.70) difference in boost with the HY1 is now a difference of 43.09% (301.64 - 258.55) with the HY2.
Which means for HY3, even if both are ~32% better than HY1...
Neutronic: 343.95%
Quantum: 294.81%
That 16.67% better from the HY1 is still being maintained. So that 37.11% difference with the HY1 is now a 49.14% difference (343.95 - 294.81) at HY3.
Say were to strip everything away to run a TRIBBLE/Mk0 version of each with some rounding going on (I'm feeling lazy)...
Okay then, now for an aside. It's no secret that I'm not a fan of the way you guys do percentages/ratios. But I want to point out something here that elaborates a bit on that.
Say we've got a shield with a capacity of 5000.
Shield Mod (1.4): 7000
Shield Mod (0.9): 4500
Then say we add 10% shields.
7000 * 1.1 = 7700
4500 * 1.1 = 4950
That difference of 2500 is now a difference of 2750. The 10% the one guy got was 700 and the other guy got 450.
10% of 100 is 10. 10% of 1000 is 100. 10% of 10000 is 1000. They're all 10%, but the actual value represented by that 10% has gone from 10 to 1000.
So when you're working with a damage formula along the lines of the following...
...it's going to be no surprise there are folks that can't do 2k DPS and there are folks around S10 when we're likely to see Fleet T6, that will have that mix of Command/Intel and normal boats where we'll see somebody pass 200k DPS.
I mean, Hell, getting somebody to switch from a Balanced preset to a Weapon preset and moving 5km closer to a target could more than double their DPS...no gear changes made. On the other hand, they could make all the gear changes they want but if they're using a Balanced preset and are 5km further out they'll never even do half the DPS they could.
And again...10% of 100, 10% of 1000, 10% of 10000, etc, etc, etc...the underlying numbers - huge differences, because of the way we've got all these ratios and percentages tripping over each other, imho.
Wow, that tangent went longer than I thought it would be and I totally forgot where I was. I need to go to the store to get more caffeine...but I'll be back.
* * * * *
Okay then, the question of why the HY1 Neut is getting the additional boost. Sure, this is more of a balance question than anything - but since it was already balanced around it's base damage, shouldn't that remain in place for any additional boosts? Cause it's always going to provide a larger underlying value for any amount because of the way the ratios/percentages work. On top of that you're also adding in multiple hits from the Neutronic extra...all of that's going to be adding up to make the Neutronic already that much better without also boosting its HY1 boost further, eh? So it's just lumping boost upon boost making it better and better. I'm not sure how the HY1 got lumped in with the TS1 issue, cause the HY1 is better - but apparently I started even parroting that along with folks...meh.
* * * * *
So the only thing I'm actually going to test is the TS stuff - see if the TS1, TS2, and TS3 are still providing those listed boosts and thus that the TS2 is 200% instead of 116.1% and the TS3 is 300% instead of the 132.38%.
So let's take a look...
The TS1 Lines
15:02:07:01:00:56.1::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317558 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread I,Pn.Blliwd,Shield,,-862.611,-1492.89
15:02:07:01:00:56.1::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317558 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread I,Pn.Blliwd,Radiation,,193.991,1133.37
15:02:07:01:00:56.1::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread I,Pn.Blliwd,Kinetic,,13121.7,8816.12
15:02:07:01:00:56.1::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread I,Pn.Blliwd,Radiation,,1706.41,1146.49
The TS2 Lines
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Shield,,-774.169,-1339.83
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Shield,,-1590.84,-11012.8
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Shield,,-803.906,-1391.29
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Shield,,-1546.77,-10707.8
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Radiation,,174.102,1017.17
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Kinetic,,1431.04,8360.72
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Radiation,,180.789,1056.24
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Kinetic,,1391.41,8129.14
The TS3 Lines
15:02:07:00:59:31.9::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-1695.03,-8617.44
15:02:07:00:59:31.9::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-769.082,-1331.02
15:02:07:00:59:31.9::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Kinetic,,957.493,8759.86
15:02:07:00:59:31.9::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Radiation,,147.892,993.646
15:02:07:00:59:32.2::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-1738.33,-8837.56
15:02:07:00:59:32.2::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-836.922,-1448.43
15:02:07:00:59:32.2::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Kinetic,,1148.38,9135.88
15:02:07:00:59:32.2::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Radiation,,188.214,1099.62
15:02:07:00:59:32.4::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-1466.68,-7456.53
15:02:07:00:59:32.4::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-867.742,-1501.77
15:02:07:00:59:32.4::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Kinetic,,968.928,7708.24
15:02:07:00:59:32.4::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Radiation,,195.145,1140.12
What the Available Skills info said each would be...
TS1: 8217.7x1
TS2: 8217.7x2
TS3: 8217.7x3
...and yeah, with the range of damage that takes place - would say that the 1 hit for TS1, 2 hits for TS2, and 3 hits for TS3 were all in line for what the tooltips gave.
Which would support that Torp Spread is broken with the Neutronic torpedo, yeah?
The "discussion" about "balance" with HY might be one thing, given the additional boost that HY1 receives, but your HY2 and HY3 are otherwise behaving as you described. It's that additional boost to the HY1 that's throwing off the comparisons of HY2 and HY3 even more when compared to another torpedo when the comparison is made to the standard torpedo...thus that "balance" complaint about HY Neuts would be better. That's before working in those Rad hits (which can drop shields and result in all sorts of extra damage that others can't do).
The TS stuff on the other hand.
We've got a TS1 that's receiving a 120.46% boost instead of the 178.16% standard torps receive (I say that because Chrons, Trans, and Elachi are all receiving a subpar boost by comparison to things like Quantums, Photons, and Plasma).
The TS2 is not 116.1% of the TS1 like it is with the Quants, but it is 200% of the TS1. The TS3 is not 132.38% of the TS1 like it is with the Quants, but it is 300% of the TS1. This actually gives us ~240% instead of ~206% and ~365% instead of ~235%.
Work in the Rad stuff on that TS3 and..
...you've got folks that even want buffs for torps complaining about what's going on there. Even folks that argued against me with the 7x issue with the E-Bio torp are complaining about what's going on with the TS3 Neutronics there.
Say we went through and did the ~16.67% with the TS1 like the HY1? Then did the 16.1% and the 32.38%?
So the Neutronic TS1 would be ~207.86% instead of ~120.46%.
With the Neutronic TS2 being ~241.32% instead of ~240.91%.
And the Neutronic TS3 would be ~275.16% instead of ~361.37%.
Kind of funny there, yeah? It looks like TS2 is almost where "it should be" based on the TS1 being boosted 16.67% compared to a standard TS1...it's just the TS1 and TS3 that are woefully off each direction by comparison.
But even if that were the case, it doesn't change that if one were to look at it because of that boost to HY1 and the potentially missing boost to TS1 and everything that's going there, that if the TS was changed to what's right above there; then the boosts would be...
And that's before you add in all the additional Rad hits that come into play.
Doh, I completely forgot I went off on that tangent earlier for a reason too...the ratios/percentages and the values they reflect.
Cause yeah, this little discussion there has just been comparing those boosts...compartmentalized so to speak.
Kinetic Precision
Concentrate Firepower
Command Torpedo Expose
Intelligence Space Flanking
Intelligence Team
Enhanced Armor Penetration (giving me a -50 DRR debuff instead of a -5 DRR debuff)
Various Tac/Gear boosts (love how that AMP works)
Debuff Stacking
And all the rest...
That wee lil' value that's represented by the example above...going to take that with the way ratios/percentages work in this game...
...and make every other single torpedo in the game wish it were even hitting as hard a cottonball because of how pathetic they will be compared to the Neutronic.
But first...er...I got to try to remember how to put Willard the Rat back together before I changed him to do the tests....lol.
edit: Oh man, I just want to say that was so cool...that was the first time in forever that I just went back to another ship and it wasn't all screwed to Hell a thousand ways...thank you guys for working on that.
Thanks for your test virus i hope with this detailed analysis it can help the devs locate the particular issue and bring the torp back in line.
and with that being said it'll still be a powerful weapon even after being readjusted to match the percentage boost of other torpedoes instead of having its own way over performing percentages.
So...Borticus tests Torp Spread 1, but that is not the problem. The problem starts to surface in Torp Spread 2, but it is glaringly obvious in Torp Spread 3.
Torp spread was coded wrong. Seems on HY, the 1 version was done wrong by 15% but Bort wants to leave it as-is. Drain resistance was never hooked up to the torp.
Torp spread was coded wrong. Seems on HY, the 1 version was done wrong by 15% but Bort wants to leave it as-is. Drain resistance was never hooked up to the torp.
Also, the drain component itself isn't working as advertised. It's a spike drain applied on the initial impact (instead of 6 seconds), then power levels rebound to normal.
I'm going to have to lad Tribble and find someone else w/ the torp to see what it does w/ 0 resists vs max resists and other values in-between. Does anyone know what the base resistance is for NPC's?
Yes, we understand the issue here. The plasma procs weren't built in a way that adequately supported upgrading to higher levels/qualities, and were exclusively balanced around lvl 50 content... so we have to figure out a way (and the time) to properly rebuild them.
Just leave them alone, they are fine as they are. You will just TRIBBLE them up like everything else.
Yes, we understand the issue here. The plasma procs weren't built in a way that adequately supported upgrading to higher levels/qualities, and were exclusively balanced around lvl 50 content... so we have to figure out a way (and the time) to properly rebuild them.
Without getting into the rebuild/fix/tweak/balance/nerf discussion, would it be possible to find out a particular tidbit of info on how they are currently working...?
Okay, so the multi-proc start is understood - one procs they all proc. 1x console? 1 DoT. 2x consoles? 2 DoTs. 3x consoles? 3 DoTs. Etc, etc, etc.
But with the way they're rolling, are they each rolling or is it just one roll?
1x console: 2.5% chance for the 1 DoT
2x consoles: 2.5% chance for the 2 DoTs or 4.9% chance for the 2 DoTs?
3x consoles: 2.5% chance for the 3 DoTs or 7.3% chance for the 3 DoTs?
Cause if that's not working the way you want, then it wouldn't just be [Pla] or even just the Rom Sci consoles that likely have an issue. If it is working the way you want, then that tidbit of info would just be nifty to have for folks out there explaining stuff to other folks out there. Thanks.
Also, the drain component itself isn't working as advertised. It's a spike drain applied on the initial impact (instead of 6 seconds), then power levels rebound to normal.
I'm going to have to lad Tribble and find someone else w/ the torp to see what it does w/ 0 resists vs max resists and other values in-between. Does anyone know what the base resistance is for NPC's?
1 drain sticks for 6 seconds with a torp spread, but the other 2 dissapear instantly. The dissapearing ones are an issue.
PS. Don't forget to look at the Embassy Science consoles and their plasma proc rate & damage being enhances at astronomical levels by going to epic quality and boosted by +beam locator consoles.
Thank you.
yeah, go ahead the TRIBBLE up one of the few things allowing people to keep up and stay competitive with the insane amount of HP and shield they have given PvE missions......
Without getting into the rebuild/fix/tweak/balance/nerf discussion, would it be possible to find out a particular tidbit of info on how they are currently working...?
Okay, so the multi-proc start is understood - one procs they all proc. 1x console? 1 DoT. 2x consoles? 2 DoTs. 3x consoles? 3 DoTs. Etc, etc, etc.
But with the way they're rolling, are they each rolling or is it just one roll?
1x console: 2.5% chance for the 1 DoT
2x consoles: 2.5% chance for the 2 DoTs or 4.9% chance for the 2 DoTs?
3x consoles: 2.5% chance for the 3 DoTs or 7.3% chance for the 3 DoTs?
Cause if that's not working the way you want, then it wouldn't just be [Pla] or even just the Rom Sci consoles that likely have an issue. If it is working the way you want, then that tidbit of info would just be nifty to have for folks out there explaining stuff to other folks out there. Thanks.
There's definitely only one roll. I don't know what the chance is, though.
My guess? They copy/pasted the tricobalt's code and then changed it to act like the others (multiple hits per target) without lowering the kinetic damage.
On another note, does the particle emission have its extra effect (plasma cloud) when using torpedo spread?
also, you need take in consideration, that w/o the set bonus, the neutronic has double the standard launch time, of a regular quantum so, the damage boost value would IMO fall inline.
What IMO, tends to throw it over the top, is the increase in rad dmg that is capable and, not always the kinetic dmg!
There's definitely only one roll. I don't know what the chance is, though.
You haven't noticed an increase in the probability of the DoTs with more consoles? It's one of those things where because of the random nature of it, there's no way to do any "simple" test to check it...it's going to be that subjective observation. Which can follow having somebody that can open five lock boxes and get five ships while you could have 500 people each opening 500 lock boxes and not see a single ship.
My subjective experience suggests an increased probability, but I could be totally wrong there...and just lucky with the [Pla] DoTs while terribly unlucky with lock boxes.
You haven't noticed an increase in the probability of the DoTs with more consoles? It's one of those things where because of the random nature of it, there's no way to do any "simple" test to check it...it's going to be that subjective observation. Which can follow having somebody that can open five lock boxes and get five ships while you could have 500 people each opening 500 lock boxes and not see a single ship.
My subjective experience suggests an increased probability, but I could be totally wrong there...and just lucky with the [Pla] DoTs while terribly unlucky with lock boxes.
If it operates in the same manner as the projectile weapon officer doffs do, it will do the following:
For each console, roll check for each energy attack.
The problems with it, afaik, are as follows:
1) the console damage jumps dramatically when upgraded to epic (Ref comment made by Bort)
2) I will need to test with CSV. FaW gives two chances per salvo for each array/dbb/omni.
3) **CONFIRMED: if a check is made for one console, all consoles apply their dot.
4) +Beam consoles boost the damage (intended?)
5?) check with sarcasmdetector and Vel (forgot his @ handle) something about the weapon mods and the console.
For those who argue that you need to dope to do any of the STF's, the answer is a resounding and firm NOPE!
Virus. Did you test a Mk xi quantum to a neutronic (Mk xii at entry level?). What mods were on the quantum?
I'll run a test w/ the epic variants in Holodeck (I have an UR critDx3+Pen quant I was playing around with, and my Neutronic is epic). That way, we will have a best-of-the-best comparison between the quants, based off of both tooltip info and live-fire testing in a production environment.
I'm on travel this weekend, but I can load the client on my laptop and do some basic testing.
I apologize for allowing it to take this long before reviewing the Neutronic+TS issue. This thread finally pulled the issue back to the front of our radar, so we were able to spend some time to verify the reports.
Yes, the torpedo is bugged.
The current magnitude values being referenced by all ranks of Torpedo Spread is incorrect, pointing to the wrong variables, which results in far more damage output than is intended for any torpedo launcher. The same is also true for this weapon when used with Rank II and III of Transport Warhead, except it's dealing far less damage than intended.
After correcting the issue, the Neutronic Torpedo will begin scaling its damage in the same manner as other torpedoes: Each individual hit deals less damage when using Spread, but there are more torpedoes overall, still resulting in a damage increase, rank-over-rank.
In the end, the following adjustments are being made:
Torpedo Spread:
- Torpedo Spread 1 = Base Damage increased by ~42% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 2 = Base Damage reduced by ~17% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 3 = Base Damage reduced by ~36% per Torpedo
- Number of torpedoes and damage of Radiation AOE remain unchanged
Transport Warhead:
- Transport Warhead 1 = Unchanged
- Transport Warhead 2 = Base Damage increased by ~17%
- Transport Warhead 3 = Base Damage increased by ~33%
- Damage of Radiation AOE remains unchanged
In the review that resulted in the above changes, we performed extensive comparisons to the scaling of many other Torpedo types, including both basic Quantum launchers, and unique launchers like the Gravimetric Photon Torpedo, in order to arrive at a level of scaling that adhered to the relative scales used in the rest of the game. And, even after these adjustments, this Torpedo is still quite a powerhouse, to compensate for its longer recharge cycle. (Which can still be reduced using the related set bonus!)
This review didn't focus on the energy drain aspect of the torpedo's secondary effect, which I see is also reportedly not working correctly. We'll take another look at that very soon.
This is just like so many other mmo's in the past. You sink tons of rec's and $ into an item and it gets nerfed... all while you have overly helpful players asking the dev team to look into it. what a load of... well anyway. This is just a means of getting as much revenue generation as possible. Most of these overly helpful players who "notice" these scaling issues are the developers imo (just like on my last mmo) setting the stage and trying to influence the player base to believe it is not what it is... a bait and switch tactic employed by more and more mmo's. at the end of the day, if there is something in the game that is not working properly that allows the player base to make extra resources there will be a hot patch right now to fix it... but if there is game "content" that sucks up a lot of $ and resources it is then decided that there is got to be a change to continue their ability to generate revenue... other wise the players will be happy with the gear they have. This is a case in point of predatory practices in business to exploit the consumer base. Shame on you STO... and anyone who buys into there dis-honest way of going about it, I feel sorry for you. When all the grinders are gone.... what player base will you have then cryptic..........?
This is just like so many other mmo's in the past. You sink tons of rec's and $ into an item and it gets nerfed... all while you have overly helpful players asking the dev team to look into it. what a load of... well anyway. This is just a means of getting as much revenue generation as possible. Most of these overly helpful players who "notice" these scaling issues are the developers imo (just like on my last mmo) setting the stage and trying to influence the player base to believe it is not what it is... a bait and switch tactic employed by more and more mmo's. at the end of the day, if there is something in the game that is not working properly that allows the player base to make extra resources there will be a hot patch right now to fix it... but if there is game "content" that sucks up a lot of $ and resources it is then decided that there is got to be a change to continue their ability to generate revenue... other wise the players will be happy with the gear they have. This is a case in point of predatory practices in business to exploit the consumer base. Shame on you STO... and anyone who buys into there dis-honest way of going about it, I feel sorry for you. When all the grinders are gone.... what player base will you have then cryptic..........?
That's an awful lot of sour paranoia. If you've played MMOs before like you claim then you'd realize that sometimes stuff gets broken and has to be fixed/rebalanced. It's the way MMOs go, even if it isn't ideal. The torpedo isn't suddenly useless because its getting adjusted some.
That's an awful lot of sour paranoia. If you've played MMOs before like you claim then you'd realize that sometimes stuff gets broken and has to be fixed/rebalanced. It's the way MMOs go, even if it isn't ideal. The torpedo isn't suddenly useless because its getting adjusted some.
Auto Carbine... in game for years... top ground pounders sink tons of rec/ $ into them and suddenly nerfed
Nuetronic torp... in game for months... tons of rec/ $ put into them... nerf coming
Dil Weekend... in game for a long time... always get bonus on rep... nerfed
Dyson Ground... dinos in game for a long time.... Damage increase for reward = nerf (though I know there were people exploiting some aspects of the ground there... but that should have been dealt with on a per player basis. and it had nothing to do with the dino farming but with afk farming... but they seen the amounts of dill that was being made there and said no way in hades)
Plasma embassy consoles + Beam fleet consoles... in game for a very very long time.... tons of recs poured into them... nerf coming
Game been broken with same issue sense romy expansion and a lot of those bugs still there
Game engine has been around since the early 90's and at the point of strain... no way to fix that so get everything you can from is while you can.
As for other mmo's battle star galactica for 3.5 years is the best one for this convo... seen everything being done here there
if it is not a $grab why would they not refund all the dil spent to upgrade the equipment so the players can then decide if there is other equipment they would rather put it to now, with the "new fixes" in place. That will never happen... mark my words.
Auto Carbine... in game for years... top ground pounders sink tons of rec/ $ into them and suddenly nerfed
Worst possible example. It was bugged for about a month and doing way too much damage (along with every other full auto rifle). We noticed it immediately and reported it. It didn't get fixed for a month, suddenly that's a "nerf".
Worst possible example. It was bugged for about a month and doing way too much damage (along with every other full auto rifle). We noticed it immediately and reported it. It didn't get fixed for a month, suddenly that's a "nerf".
way to much compared to what, because it has always been the highest dps weapon (carbine/ full autos) on the ground baseline... where you been? and like I said... people poured upgrades into them and just got hung out to dry. what it boils down to is people how can't do, gripe about it and screws it up for everyone. I am sure there is a gaming company that will love to have you on the books one day... till then slow your roll fan boy.
Decided to flip through some torps just looking at TS stuff (HY gets more complicated with the Salvo and Heavy options)...
9 Starship Weapon Training
9 Starship Projectile Weapons
Intel Phantom Mastery: Enhanced Weapon Systems
Missile Commander
No consoles, no set bonuses, no traits, no ability buffs.
Note: Just listing the Available Skills info/tooltip numbers, but tested each to check the actual number of torps firing and if the damage was near what the tooltip stated. Will add comments for each if the tooltip itself is off.
So, I was all prepared to talk about all the little different things going on up there; when I did a preview and saw another post which kind of ticked me off but also got me thinking about what they had quoted.
So rather than go through all of the above, I just going to cut to the chase...basically, why can't the various Torpedo Weapon Enhancements provide the same % buffs regardless of the torpedo type? Why can't it just work like everything else? +31.9% Tac Console is +31.9% regardless, the Nukara Aux Offensive is the same regardless, APO/APA, etc, etc, etc...all standardized buffs, yeah? So why are the Torpedo Weapon Enhancements all over the place like this instead of standardized?
What to standardize them at? Well, that's where the part of that reply and what it quoted got me thinking...
Torpedo Spread:
- Torpedo Spread 1 = Base Damage increased by ~42% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 2 = Base Damage reduced by ~17% per Torpedo
- Torpedo Spread 3 = Base Damage reduced by ~36% per Torpedo
So if we take a look at the numbers Neut was giving before to translate the quote/snippet into numbers along the lines of the rest in this post.
And that ~171%, ~200%, ~231% kind of comes into play matching up pretty close to some of the torps we were already seeing, yeah?
So what if it were simply TS1 = 170%; TS2 = 200%; TS3 = 230% the damage of a Standard shot? With that being a fixed modifier that's not modified up here and down there as was apparent with the numbers at the start of this post?
That any balancing concerns of the torps be left to what's going on outside of the Weapon Enhancements, eh? That instead we had Weapon Enhancements that provided a consistent % buff?
(Yeah, I know I said in a previous post I'm not a fan of ratios/percentages, but they're not going to be going anywhere - so I'd rather have some consistency.)
* * * * *
Note 1
TS1 tooltip states: Up to 3 enemies - your main target, and up to 2 more.
TS2 tooltip states: Up to 4 enemies - your main target, and up to 5 more.
TS3 tooltip states: Up to 5 enemies - your main target, and up to 8 more.
Does not display number of torps per target (no x2, x3, etc).
Note 2
TS1 tooltip states: Up to 3 enemies - your main target, and up to 2 more.
TS2 tooltip states: Up to 4 enemies - your main target, and up to 5 more.
TS3 tooltip states: Up to 5 enemies - your main target, and up to 8 more.
Displays number of torps per target (x2, x3, etc).
Note 3
TS1 tooltip states: Up to 3 enemies - your main target, and up to 2 more.
TS2 tooltip states: Up to 4 enemies - your main target, and up to 5 more.
TS3 tooltip states: Up to 5 enemies - your main target, and up to 8 more.
Displays the incorrect number of torps per target.
Excellent, Virus! I may have to reassess my initial thoughts. Will still do the testing I outlined earlier. Would you mind looking over my notes & results when I am finished?
Comments
I may have been lying, this appears to be easy to fix. It was not flagged properly to allow for resistances, despite being allowed to scale with Flow Capacitors.
I'm having trouble finding a thread explaining the issue as reported by players... does the above cover it? Just that the energy drain is currently unresistable?
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
yall are really on the ball latley ^.^ is salami feeding yall steak sandviches for lunch ?
Energy drain was unresistable/unclearable
Energy drain only spiked instead of lasting for the duration (6 seconds) for PvE and PvP.
Not tested/not properly understood: if the Energy Drain is also an AoE effect.
*EDIT* Is the Radiation damage supposed to be lower for HY than TS?
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Joined January 2009
Thanks.
*EDIT* Specifically, what the base dmg should be for each torp, including TS, HY, and Transport. I'm seeing some inconsistencies in the logs between HY3 and 1.
TY.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Boo. Boo, I say!
Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
That pretty much covers it. I shot at myself with more and more PI, no difference.
How about the effect from multiple torp hits where the drain kind of stacks for a sec and then the stacking is lost and one drain remains? Is that working as intended?
No never a lie just say 18% to 16% and everything will be okay.
Hrmm, so that's curious...so the HY2 and HY3 are based off of the HY1 rather than the HY1, HY2, and HY3 being based off of the Standard?
Say we were to compare Quantums vs. the Neutronic (both are flavors of Quantum). Girlfriend went to sleep after Grimm, so I've got nothing else to do right now...lol. Starting with just the base torpedo, eh?
Quantum is 1503 base, a 8 second CD, and nothing special.
Neutronic is 1830 base, a 15 second CD, and the Neutronic AoE extra bit (3km Rad, -Pwr, -PwrTransfer).
So the Neut gets more damage and the extra bit in exchange for almost twice the CD. Not going to comment on whether that's balanced or not, but it's obviously an attempt at balancing...there's a tradeoff sort of thing going on there.
Okay, the following is just going to be tooltip stuff to start with. The build has 9 Starship Weapon Training, 9 Starship Projectile Weapons, no consoles, no AMP, no Nukara Offensive, no 2pc AMACO/KHG, no Pirate BOFFs (heh, I actually remembered to pull everything without having to go back and yank anything...for the first time).
It's a VR12 Neutronic and a CXI Quantum.
The Neutronic
Standard: 6822.1
HY1: 8862.4x2 (17724.8); 259.81%
HY2: 6859.4x3 (20578.2); 301.64%; 116.10%
HY3: 5866.1x4 (23464.4); 343.95%; 132.38%
TS1: 8217.7x1 (8217.7); 120.46%
TS2: 8217.7x2 (16435.4); 240.91%; 200%
TS3: 8217.7x3 (24653.1); 361.37%; 300%
The Quantum
Standard: 5309.8
HY1: 5912.4x2 (11824.8); 222.70%
HY2: 4576.1x3 (13728.3); 258.55%; 116.10%
HY3: 3913.4x4 (15653.6); 294.81%; 132.38%
TS1: 4729.9x2 (9459.8); 178.16%
TS2: 3660.9x3 (10982.7); 206.84%; 116.10%
TS3: 3130.7x4 (12522.8); 235.84%; 132.38%
Like the previous look, I'll go back to those numbers above and do a comparison initially of each vs. the Standard. In addition, I'll do the comparison to the Rank1 enhancement.
Before going any further with dropping out a world of hurt on any NPCs, let's take a quick look at how those compared to the previous numbers (well, the comparison to the Standard).
Give or take some rounding here and there, the Quantum numbers match up to what was seen before (various testing, what one gets (or got) from STOwiki as well, etc, etc, etc). The Neutronic likewise match up (the numbers from testing were slightly lower on average, but within that range).
Still not quite ready to get in there to do some testing (my internet's acting up, so I'm giving it a moment); what we're looking at so far then is...
For the Quantum, the HY2/TS2 are that ~116% of the HY1/TS1, HY3/TS3 are that ~132%(133%) of the HY1/TS1 as you say. For the Neutronic, the HY side plays out with those 116%/132%(133%) angles; but the TS side is hammering by comparison.
So if we just look at the HY side for a moment, yes - as you stated we've got those HY1->HY2 & HY1->HY3 percentages; but those percentages are based off of that HY1 percentage.
Neutronic: 259.81%
Quantum: 222.70%
Which would fall into your (give or take some rounding and other stuff) that ~15% difference. Not that it's 222.7 + 15, but that it's 222.7 * 1.15 (1.167ish).
Which means for HY2, even if both are ~16% better than HY1...
Neutronic: 301.64%
Quantum: 258.55%
That 16.67% better from the HY1 is being maintained. So what was the 37.11% (259.81 - 222.70) difference in boost with the HY1 is now a difference of 43.09% (301.64 - 258.55) with the HY2.
Which means for HY3, even if both are ~32% better than HY1...
Neutronic: 343.95%
Quantum: 294.81%
That 16.67% better from the HY1 is still being maintained. So that 37.11% difference with the HY1 is now a 49.14% difference (343.95 - 294.81) at HY3.
Say were to strip everything away to run a TRIBBLE/Mk0 version of each with some rounding going on (I'm feeling lazy)...
The Neutronic
Standard: 1830
HY1: 4754.5
HY2: 5520.0
HY3: 6294.3
TS1: 2204.4
TS2: 4408.6
TS3: 6613.1
The Quantum
Standard: 1503
HY1: 3347.1
HY2: 3886.0
HY3: 4431.0
TS1: 2677.7
TS2: 3108.8
TS3: 3544.7
The Differences
Standard: 327
HY1: 1407.4
HY2: 1634.0
HY3: 1863.3
TS1: -473.3
TS2: 1299.8
TS3: 3068.4
Okay then, now for an aside. It's no secret that I'm not a fan of the way you guys do percentages/ratios. But I want to point out something here that elaborates a bit on that.
Say we've got a shield with a capacity of 5000.
Shield Mod (1.4): 7000
Shield Mod (0.9): 4500
Then say we add 10% shields.
7000 * 1.1 = 7700
4500 * 1.1 = 4950
That difference of 2500 is now a difference of 2750. The 10% the one guy got was 700 and the other guy got 450.
10% of 100 is 10. 10% of 1000 is 100. 10% of 10000 is 1000. They're all 10%, but the actual value represented by that 10% has gone from 10 to 1000.
So when you're working with a damage formula along the lines of the following...
Damage = Base * (1 - WeaponEnhancementBaseModifier) * (1 + WeaponPowerBoost) * (1 + WeaponEnhancementBoost) * (1 + SumAllStrengthBoost) * (1 + SumAllBonusBoost) * (1 - RangePenalty) * (1 - DamageResistance)
...it's going to be no surprise there are folks that can't do 2k DPS and there are folks around S10 when we're likely to see Fleet T6, that will have that mix of Command/Intel and normal boats where we'll see somebody pass 200k DPS.
I mean, Hell, getting somebody to switch from a Balanced preset to a Weapon preset and moving 5km closer to a target could more than double their DPS...no gear changes made. On the other hand, they could make all the gear changes they want but if they're using a Balanced preset and are 5km further out they'll never even do half the DPS they could.
And again...10% of 100, 10% of 1000, 10% of 10000, etc, etc, etc...the underlying numbers - huge differences, because of the way we've got all these ratios and percentages tripping over each other, imho.
Wow, that tangent went longer than I thought it would be and I totally forgot where I was. I need to go to the store to get more caffeine...but I'll be back.
* * * * *
Okay then, the question of why the HY1 Neut is getting the additional boost. Sure, this is more of a balance question than anything - but since it was already balanced around it's base damage, shouldn't that remain in place for any additional boosts? Cause it's always going to provide a larger underlying value for any amount because of the way the ratios/percentages work. On top of that you're also adding in multiple hits from the Neutronic extra...all of that's going to be adding up to make the Neutronic already that much better without also boosting its HY1 boost further, eh? So it's just lumping boost upon boost making it better and better. I'm not sure how the HY1 got lumped in with the TS1 issue, cause the HY1 is better - but apparently I started even parroting that along with folks...meh.
* * * * *
So the only thing I'm actually going to test is the TS stuff - see if the TS1, TS2, and TS3 are still providing those listed boosts and thus that the TS2 is 200% instead of 116.1% and the TS3 is 300% instead of the 132.38%.
So let's take a look...
The TS1 Lines
15:02:07:01:00:56.1::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317558 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread I,Pn.Blliwd,Shield,,-862.611,-1492.89
15:02:07:01:00:56.1::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317558 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread I,Pn.Blliwd,Radiation,,193.991,1133.37
15:02:07:01:00:56.1::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread I,Pn.Blliwd,Kinetic,,13121.7,8816.12
15:02:07:01:00:56.1::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread I,Pn.Blliwd,Radiation,,1706.41,1146.49
The TS2 Lines
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Shield,,-774.169,-1339.83
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Shield,,-1590.84,-11012.8
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Shield,,-803.906,-1391.29
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Shield,,-1546.77,-10707.8
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Radiation,,174.102,1017.17
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Kinetic,,1431.04,8360.72
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Radiation,,180.789,1056.24
15:02:07:00:59:57.8::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Kinetic,,1391.41,8129.14
The TS3 Lines
15:02:07:00:59:31.9::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-1695.03,-8617.44
15:02:07:00:59:31.9::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-769.082,-1331.02
15:02:07:00:59:31.9::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Kinetic,,957.493,8759.86
15:02:07:00:59:31.9::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Radiation,,147.892,993.646
15:02:07:00:59:32.2::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-1738.33,-8837.56
15:02:07:00:59:32.2::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-836.922,-1448.43
15:02:07:00:59:32.2::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Kinetic,,1148.38,9135.88
15:02:07:00:59:32.2::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Radiation,,188.214,1099.62
15:02:07:00:59:32.4::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-1466.68,-7456.53
15:02:07:00:59:32.4::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-867.742,-1501.77
15:02:07:00:59:32.4::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Kinetic,,968.928,7708.24
15:02:07:00:59:32.4::Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],,*,Kazon Cruiser,C[317557 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Radiation,,195.145,1140.12
What the Available Skills info said each would be...
TS1: 8217.7x1
TS2: 8217.7x2
TS3: 8217.7x3
...and yeah, with the range of damage that takes place - would say that the 1 hit for TS1, 2 hits for TS2, and 3 hits for TS3 were all in line for what the tooltips gave.
Which would support that Torp Spread is broken with the Neutronic torpedo, yeah?
The "discussion" about "balance" with HY might be one thing, given the additional boost that HY1 receives, but your HY2 and HY3 are otherwise behaving as you described. It's that additional boost to the HY1 that's throwing off the comparisons of HY2 and HY3 even more when compared to another torpedo when the comparison is made to the standard torpedo...thus that "balance" complaint about HY Neuts would be better. That's before working in those Rad hits (which can drop shields and result in all sorts of extra damage that others can't do).
The TS stuff on the other hand.
We've got a TS1 that's receiving a 120.46% boost instead of the 178.16% standard torps receive (I say that because Chrons, Trans, and Elachi are all receiving a subpar boost by comparison to things like Quantums, Photons, and Plasma).
The TS2 is not 116.1% of the TS1 like it is with the Quants, but it is 200% of the TS1. The TS3 is not 132.38% of the TS1 like it is with the Quants, but it is 300% of the TS1. This actually gives us ~240% instead of ~206% and ~365% instead of ~235%.
Work in the Rad stuff on that TS3 and..
...you've got folks that even want buffs for torps complaining about what's going on there. Even folks that argued against me with the 7x issue with the E-Bio torp are complaining about what's going on with the TS3 Neutronics there.
Say we went through and did the ~16.67% with the TS1 like the HY1? Then did the 16.1% and the 32.38%?
So the Neutronic TS1 would be ~207.86% instead of ~120.46%.
With the Neutronic TS2 being ~241.32% instead of ~240.91%.
And the Neutronic TS3 would be ~275.16% instead of ~361.37%.
Kind of funny there, yeah? It looks like TS2 is almost where "it should be" based on the TS1 being boosted 16.67% compared to a standard TS1...it's just the TS1 and TS3 that are woefully off each direction by comparison.
But even if that were the case, it doesn't change that if one were to look at it because of that boost to HY1 and the potentially missing boost to TS1 and everything that's going there, that if the TS was changed to what's right above there; then the boosts would be...
Neutronic HY1 ~= Quantum HY2
Neutronic HY2 ~= Quantum HY3
Neutronic HY3 ~= Quantum HY4???
Neutronic TS1 ~= Quantum TS2
Neutronic TS2 ~= Quantum TS3
Neutronic TS3 ~= Quantum TS4???
And that's before you add in all the additional Rad hits that come into play.
Doh, I completely forgot I went off on that tangent earlier for a reason too...the ratios/percentages and the values they reflect.
Cause yeah, this little discussion there has just been comparing those boosts...compartmentalized so to speak.
Kinetic Precision
Concentrate Firepower
Command Torpedo Expose
Intelligence Space Flanking
Intelligence Team
Enhanced Armor Penetration (giving me a -50 DRR debuff instead of a -5 DRR debuff)
Various Tac/Gear boosts (love how that AMP works)
Debuff Stacking
And all the rest...
That wee lil' value that's represented by the example above...going to take that with the way ratios/percentages work in this game...
...and make every other single torpedo in the game wish it were even hitting as hard a cottonball because of how pathetic they will be compared to the Neutronic.
But first...er...I got to try to remember how to put Willard the Rat back together before I changed him to do the tests....lol.
edit: Oh man, I just want to say that was so cool...that was the first time in forever that I just went back to another ship and it wasn't all screwed to Hell a thousand ways...thank you guys for working on that.
and with that being said it'll still be a powerful weapon even after being readjusted to match the percentage boost of other torpedoes instead of having its own way over performing percentages.
@DevolvedOne
Also, the drain component itself isn't working as advertised. It's a spike drain applied on the initial impact (instead of 6 seconds), then power levels rebound to normal.
I'm going to have to lad Tribble and find someone else w/ the torp to see what it does w/ 0 resists vs max resists and other values in-between. Does anyone know what the base resistance is for NPC's?
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Just leave them alone, they are fine as they are. You will just TRIBBLE them up like everything else.
Without getting into the rebuild/fix/tweak/balance/nerf discussion, would it be possible to find out a particular tidbit of info on how they are currently working...?
Okay, so the multi-proc start is understood - one procs they all proc. 1x console? 1 DoT. 2x consoles? 2 DoTs. 3x consoles? 3 DoTs. Etc, etc, etc.
But with the way they're rolling, are they each rolling or is it just one roll?
1x console: 2.5% chance for the 1 DoT
2x consoles: 2.5% chance for the 2 DoTs or 4.9% chance for the 2 DoTs?
3x consoles: 2.5% chance for the 3 DoTs or 7.3% chance for the 3 DoTs?
Cause if that's not working the way you want, then it wouldn't just be [Pla] or even just the Rom Sci consoles that likely have an issue. If it is working the way you want, then that tidbit of info would just be nifty to have for folks out there explaining stuff to other folks out there. Thanks.
1 drain sticks for 6 seconds with a torp spread, but the other 2 dissapear instantly. The dissapearing ones are an issue.
yeah, go ahead the TRIBBLE up one of the few things allowing people to keep up and stay competitive with the insane amount of HP and shield they have given PvE missions......
There's definitely only one roll. I don't know what the chance is, though.
also, you need take in consideration, that w/o the set bonus, the neutronic has double the standard launch time, of a regular quantum so, the damage boost value would IMO fall inline.
What IMO, tends to throw it over the top, is the increase in rad dmg that is capable and, not always the kinetic dmg!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
You haven't noticed an increase in the probability of the DoTs with more consoles? It's one of those things where because of the random nature of it, there's no way to do any "simple" test to check it...it's going to be that subjective observation. Which can follow having somebody that can open five lock boxes and get five ships while you could have 500 people each opening 500 lock boxes and not see a single ship.
My subjective experience suggests an increased probability, but I could be totally wrong there...and just lucky with the [Pla] DoTs while terribly unlucky with lock boxes.
If it operates in the same manner as the projectile weapon officer doffs do, it will do the following:
For each console, roll check for each energy attack.
The problems with it, afaik, are as follows:
1) the console damage jumps dramatically when upgraded to epic (Ref comment made by Bort)
2) I will need to test with CSV. FaW gives two chances per salvo for each array/dbb/omni.
3) **CONFIRMED: if a check is made for one console, all consoles apply their dot.
4) +Beam consoles boost the damage (intended?)
5?) check with sarcasmdetector and Vel (forgot his @ handle) something about the weapon mods and the console.
For those who argue that you need to dope to do any of the STF's, the answer is a resounding and firm NOPE!
Say NOPE to DOPE!
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
I'll run a test w/ the epic variants in Holodeck (I have an UR critDx3+Pen quant I was playing around with, and my Neutronic is epic). That way, we will have a best-of-the-best comparison between the quants, based off of both tooltip info and live-fire testing in a production environment.
I'm on travel this weekend, but I can load the client on my laptop and do some basic testing.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
This is just like so many other mmo's in the past. You sink tons of rec's and $ into an item and it gets nerfed... all while you have overly helpful players asking the dev team to look into it. what a load of... well anyway. This is just a means of getting as much revenue generation as possible. Most of these overly helpful players who "notice" these scaling issues are the developers imo (just like on my last mmo) setting the stage and trying to influence the player base to believe it is not what it is... a bait and switch tactic employed by more and more mmo's. at the end of the day, if there is something in the game that is not working properly that allows the player base to make extra resources there will be a hot patch right now to fix it... but if there is game "content" that sucks up a lot of $ and resources it is then decided that there is got to be a change to continue their ability to generate revenue... other wise the players will be happy with the gear they have. This is a case in point of predatory practices in business to exploit the consumer base. Shame on you STO... and anyone who buys into there dis-honest way of going about it, I feel sorry for you. When all the grinders are gone.... what player base will you have then cryptic..........?
That's an awful lot of sour paranoia. If you've played MMOs before like you claim then you'd realize that sometimes stuff gets broken and has to be fixed/rebalanced. It's the way MMOs go, even if it isn't ideal. The torpedo isn't suddenly useless because its getting adjusted some.
Auto Carbine... in game for years... top ground pounders sink tons of rec/ $ into them and suddenly nerfed
Nuetronic torp... in game for months... tons of rec/ $ put into them... nerf coming
Dil Weekend... in game for a long time... always get bonus on rep... nerfed
Dyson Ground... dinos in game for a long time.... Damage increase for reward = nerf (though I know there were people exploiting some aspects of the ground there... but that should have been dealt with on a per player basis. and it had nothing to do with the dino farming but with afk farming... but they seen the amounts of dill that was being made there and said no way in hades)
Plasma embassy consoles + Beam fleet consoles... in game for a very very long time.... tons of recs poured into them... nerf coming
Game been broken with same issue sense romy expansion and a lot of those bugs still there
Game engine has been around since the early 90's and at the point of strain... no way to fix that so get everything you can from is while you can.
As for other mmo's battle star galactica for 3.5 years is the best one for this convo... seen everything being done here there
if it is not a $grab why would they not refund all the dil spent to upgrade the equipment so the players can then decide if there is other equipment they would rather put it to now, with the "new fixes" in place. That will never happen... mark my words.
Worst possible example. It was bugged for about a month and doing way too much damage (along with every other full auto rifle). We noticed it immediately and reported it. It didn't get fixed for a month, suddenly that's a "nerf".
way to much compared to what, because it has always been the highest dps weapon (carbine/ full autos) on the ground baseline... where you been? and like I said... people poured upgrades into them and just got hung out to dry. what it boils down to is people how can't do, gripe about it and screws it up for everyone. I am sure there is a gaming company that will love to have you on the books one day... till then slow your roll fan boy.
9 Starship Weapon Training
9 Starship Projectile Weapons
Intel Phantom Mastery: Enhanced Weapon Systems
Missile Commander
No consoles, no set bonuses, no traits, no ability buffs.
Note: Just listing the Available Skills info/tooltip numbers, but tested each to check the actual number of torps firing and if the damage was near what the tooltip stated. Will add comments for each if the tooltip itself is off.
Very Rare Adaptive Transphasic Torpedo Launcher Mk XII [Borg][Dmg]x3
Standard: 3460.7
TS1: 2233.3x2 (4466.6); 129.1%
TS2: 1702x3 (5106); 147.5%; 114.3%
TS3: 1438.2x4 (5752.8); 166.2%; 128.8%
See Note 1
Common Chroniton Torpedo Launcher Mk II
Standard: 2655
TS1: 1829.7x2 (3659.4); 137.8%
TS2: 1394.4x3 (4183.2); 157.6%; 114.3%
TS3: 1178.3x4 (4713.2); 177.5%; 128.8%
See Note 1
Rare Corrosive Plasma Torpedo Launcher MK XII
Standard: 3595.1
TS1: 3030.3x2 (6060.6); 168.6%
TS2: 2391.6x3 (7174.8); 199.6%; 118.4%
TS3: 2075.4x4 (8301.6); 230.9%; 137.0%
See Note 1
Rare Elachi Subspace Torpedo Launcher Mk XII
Standard: 4549.5
TS1: 3635x2 (7270); 159.8%
TS2: 2770.3x3 (8310.9); 182.7%; 114.3%
TS3: 2341x4 (9364); 205.8%; 128.8%
See Note 2
Very Rare Enhanced Bio-Molecular Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk XII
Standard: 4582
TS1: 3885.1x2 (7770.2); 169.6%
TS2: 3066.1x3 (9198.3); 200.7%; 118.4%
TS3: 2660.8x4 (10643.2); 232.3%, 137.0%
See Note 3
Very Rare Gravimetric Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk XII
Standard: 4582
TS1: 3885.1x2 (7770.2); 169.6%
TS2: 3066.1x3 (9198.3); 200.7%; 118.4%
TS3: 2660.8x4 (10643.2); 232.3%; 137.0%
See Note 2
Very Rare Neutronic Torpedo Launcher Mk XII
Standard: 6201.9
TS1: 7470.6x1 (7470.6); 120.5%
TS2: 7470.6x2 (14941.2); 240.9%; 200%
TS3: 7470.6x3 (22411.8); 361.4%; 300%
See Note 2
Very Rare Omega Plasma Torpedo Launcher Mk XII [CrtH][Dmg]x2
Standard: 1850.6
TS1: 2272.8x2 (4545.6); 245.6%
TS2: 1793.7x3 (5381.1); 290.8%; 118.4%
TS3: 1556.6x4 (6225.6); 336.4%; 137.0%
See Note 1
Ultra Rare Particle Emission Plasma Torpedo Launcher Mk XII [Acc][CrtD][CrtH]
Standard: 3648.2
TS1: 3030.3x2 (6060.6); 166.1%;
TS2: 2391.6x3 (7174.8); 196.7%; 118.4%
TS3: 2075.4x4 (8301.6); 227.6%; 137.0%
See Note 1
Uncommon Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk I [Acc]
Standard: 2996.9
TS1: 2569.2x2 (5138.4); 171.5%
TS2: 2027.7x3 (6083.1); 203.0%; 118.4%
TS3: 1759.6x4 (7038.4); 234.9%; 137.0%
See Note 2
Uncommon Plasma Torpedo Launcher Mk I [CrtD]
Standard: 2351.4
TS1: 2004x2 (4008); 170.5%
TS2: 1581.6x3 (4744.8); 201.8%; 118.4%
TS3: 1372.5x4 (5489.6); 233.5%; 137.0%
See Note 1
Common Mk XI Quantum Torpedo Launcher Mk XI
Standard: 4827.1
TS1: 4299.9x2 (8599.8); 178.2%
TS2: 3328.1x3 (9984.3); 206.8%; 116.1%
TS3: 2846.1x4 (11384.4); 235.8%; 132.4%
See Note 2
Very Rare Romulan Hyper-Plasma Torpedo Launcher Mk XII
Standard: 2419.5x3 (7258.5)
TS1: 2419.5x2 (4839); 66.7%
TS2: 2688.4x2 (5376.8); 74.1%; 111.1%
TS3: 2957.2x2 (5914.4); 81.5%; 122.2%
See Note 2
Common Transphasic Torpedo Launcher Mk VII
Standard: 2741.7
TS1: 1889.5x2 (3779); 137.8%;
TS2: 1440x3 (4320); 157.6%; 114.3%
TS3: 1216.8x4 (4867.2); 177.5%; 128.8%
See Note 1
Common Tricobalt Torpedo Launcher MK VI
Standard: 5609.3
TS1: 5609.3x1 (5609.3); 100%
TS2: 5609.3x1 (5609.3); 100%; 100%
TS3: 5609.3x1 (5609.3); 100%; 100%
See Note 3
* * * * *
So, I was all prepared to talk about all the little different things going on up there; when I did a preview and saw another post which kind of ticked me off but also got me thinking about what they had quoted.
So rather than go through all of the above, I just going to cut to the chase...basically, why can't the various Torpedo Weapon Enhancements provide the same % buffs regardless of the torpedo type? Why can't it just work like everything else? +31.9% Tac Console is +31.9% regardless, the Nukara Aux Offensive is the same regardless, APO/APA, etc, etc, etc...all standardized buffs, yeah? So why are the Torpedo Weapon Enhancements all over the place like this instead of standardized?
What to standardize them at? Well, that's where the part of that reply and what it quoted got me thinking...
So if we take a look at the numbers Neut was giving before to translate the quote/snippet into numbers along the lines of the rest in this post.
Very Rare Neutronic Torpedo Launcher Mk XII
Standard: 6201.9
TS1: 7470.6x1 (7470.6); 120.5% ===> 10608.3; 171.1%
TS2: 7470.6x2 (14941.2); 240.9%; 200% ===> 12400.2; 199.9%; 116.9%
TS3: 7470.6x3 (22411.8); 361.4%; 300% ===> 14342.4; 231.3%; 135.2%
And that ~171%, ~200%, ~231% kind of comes into play matching up pretty close to some of the torps we were already seeing, yeah?
So what if it were simply TS1 = 170%; TS2 = 200%; TS3 = 230% the damage of a Standard shot? With that being a fixed modifier that's not modified up here and down there as was apparent with the numbers at the start of this post?
That any balancing concerns of the torps be left to what's going on outside of the Weapon Enhancements, eh? That instead we had Weapon Enhancements that provided a consistent % buff?
(Yeah, I know I said in a previous post I'm not a fan of ratios/percentages, but they're not going to be going anywhere - so I'd rather have some consistency.)
* * * * *
Note 1
TS1 tooltip states: Up to 3 enemies - your main target, and up to 2 more.
TS2 tooltip states: Up to 4 enemies - your main target, and up to 5 more.
TS3 tooltip states: Up to 5 enemies - your main target, and up to 8 more.
Does not display number of torps per target (no x2, x3, etc).
Note 2
TS1 tooltip states: Up to 3 enemies - your main target, and up to 2 more.
TS2 tooltip states: Up to 4 enemies - your main target, and up to 5 more.
TS3 tooltip states: Up to 5 enemies - your main target, and up to 8 more.
Displays number of torps per target (x2, x3, etc).
Note 3
TS1 tooltip states: Up to 3 enemies - your main target, and up to 2 more.
TS2 tooltip states: Up to 4 enemies - your main target, and up to 5 more.
TS3 tooltip states: Up to 5 enemies - your main target, and up to 8 more.
Displays the incorrect number of torps per target.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.