I control. I debuff. I make thing happen that make things happen for others to get big numbers. But in the end, day in and day out, it's about my own personal DPS. What debuff I give the enemy that lets Tom hit harder or focus fire doesn't matter to most people in elites. Some will toss a thank you. Most will ignore you. And some will fill your ears with curses.
I rolled a Science officer some years ago. Had I known about APA and GDF before I put years of work and life, if I may say so, into my captain, I might consider playing Star Tac Online, but that is the crux of the issue here. It's about the only viable class in the game. If you are not that class, you are already at a disadvantage. I think my version of APA does what? Gives a boost to shield healing? Engies? Gives a boost to hull healing. My other powers call a photonic fleet that can be more trouble than help since there is no control over them at all and a subnuc beam. Nothing in that package helps my DPS. The engi can heal himself and reverse his shield polarity. The third tac speeds up the cooldown on their team abilities.
It's more than players playing badly. It's players playing badly gimped classes and being expected to APA GDF damage their way through content. A high powered player recently put their tac into a science ship for a video. They got numbers no science captain could ever hope to get from the skills a science officer should excel at. That, to me, is just proof that this entire argument is because of a fundamental imbalance in this game at its core.
I mostly play science characters myself, and think they do fine. While you are not going to be seeing the large numbers that a tac can pull off, there are things that you can do, that he cannot.
Sensor scan debuffs a target's damage resistance, and if you have the sensor officer slotted on your active duty officer roster, then it will also debuff the target's damage output.
Photonic fleet is also pretty useful. More often than not those photonic ships will draw fire off of you. They also can, when properly used, inflict a fair amount of damage. The KDF version can fire bio-neural warheads (raptors) , and isometric charges (neghvar). The fed version has torpedo spread 3 (Typhoon). Combine this with your sensor scan, and other debuffs. If you have the photonic capacitor trait slotted then this ability will cycle faster every time you activate a science ability.
Subnucleonic beam is a very nice ability. I love it. It strips buffs off a target. There are many very nasty buffs npcs get in queued events. One example is feedback pulse the borg queen has in both Hive Onslaught, and Borg Disconnected. There is also the attack pattern delta that the Voth boss ship has which is really nasty. Being able to strip those away will save your group a great deal of grief. A tactical officer will do 0 damage when he is flying a debris field.
Scattering field is very useful in mitigating enemy damage output. Any sort of energy damage is reduced in the field's area. CE's beam is mitigated by this (so is the shockwave, but it's better to not be hit by that :P).
Remember, it's not just about you. It's about what you can bring to the table in a group environment. Damage is part of it, the other is playing smart, and using your abilities effectively. Knowing the mission you queued for, and understanding the fight mechanics goes quite a ways toward this, so that you know what bridge officer abilities, consoles, and devices will be optimal.
Tac officers are not the end of the game. They are just a part of it.
Please just sell ships with Hard fixed weapons and consoles. Develop a system to let people upgrade them a bit if you want to try to make some extra cash.
BUT Stop giving people options.
Cause when you give them options they start thinking the stupidest things you can imagine are good ideas for there ship builds.
I am sick of popping in now and then to play this game and realizing that a quick PvE Que is a no go because the average player in this game is beyond help.
Just spoon feed them please. There is no excuse for ships doing under 10k DPS anymore. The only conclusion is that players doing under that are Trolls / RPers that might as well be trolls... or just not intelligent enough to realize the game design is DPS DPS DPS....
Some stuff just won't work folks... One of each weapon type... Torp/Beam/Single Canon/Torp... ect ect.
Just sell them preset STF Approved ships... they need it.
You're so cool... I want to grow up and be an TRIBBLE just like you... can you tell me how... you're my trollish TRIBBLE hero... tell you what... you don't like the fact that they're not up to your standards... GTFO... why should they leave because of you.... GTFO...
By the way I end up doing about 20k on my science ship... and I'm an RPer... so you have no clue what you're talking about.
A lot of people are jumping on the OP and making him out to be saying, "Everyone needs to be hypercompetitive level or GTFO." I don't think that's it. What I understand is that there are waaaaay too many people who don't seem to have any idea how to play the game, to the point that they are simply not viable in Advanced/Elite, and yet persist in joining and forcing others to make up for their lack. Granted, a fair bit of rage there, but frankly, IMO, it's justified in many cases.
Sure, if you want to play your way, all well and good. But since you expect people not to interfere with your desire to play your way, why are you interfering with other's desire to play their way, aka to win? Isn't it courteous to at least achieve minimum viability so that you don't waste another player's time?
There is a difference between wanting everyone to focus on DPS and nothing else, and wanting others to at least be viable enough to successfully complete a mission. One is being elitist, and the other is plain common sense. Isn't it?
Anyway, cookie cutter equip builds would be interesting, to say the least. But I doubt it solves the root problem, which is an ignorance of how the game works. And frankly, I don't blame them. This game is pretty darn esoteric even at its easiest.
I think Cryptic should sell Dmgx3 gear loadouts (ie. bundles of 8 Dmgx3 weapons) while adjusting what Dmg does as a weapon modifier to make it "dumb damage".
This is why I've favored making Dmg weapon haste or some type of BIG enhancement to autofire damage that does nothing to ability damage.
If balanced well, it could allow a weak player (or player who intends to focus on non-damage tasks) to coast on easy to acquire Dmgx3 gear. Whereas skilled players would get more by continuing to avoid Dmg.
Just balance the Dmg mod so that someone with Dmgx4 pressing spacebar can do maybe 80-90% of what a fairly skilled player can do but loses damage scaling ability to surpass skilled players.
Load up on Dmg. Hit spacebar. Do 30k DPS. But also be unable to MORE than 30k DPS. Then cracking 30k would involve ditching Dmg in stages and learning skills.
A lot of people are jumping on the OP and making him out to be saying, "Everyone needs to be hypercompetitive level or GTFO." I don't think that's it. What I understand is that there are waaaaay too many people who don't seem to have any idea how to play the game, to the point that they are simply not viable in Advanced/Elite, and yet persist in joining and forcing others to make up for their lack.
Sure, if you want to play your way, all well and good. But since you expect people not to interfere with your desire to play your way, why are you interfering with other's desire to play their way, aka to win? Isn't it courteous to at least achieve minimum viability so that you don't waste another player's time?
There is a difference between wanting everyone to focus on DPS and nothing else, and wanting others to at least be viable enough to successfully complete a mission. One is being elitist, and the other is plain common sense. Isn't it?
Anyway, cookie cutter equip builds would be interesting, to say the least. But I doubt it solves the root problem, which is an ignorance of how the game works. And frankly, I don't blame them. This game is pretty darn esoteric even at its easiest.
Who cares... if you don't like the fact that they're not up to your level of e-peen status... then either GTFO or don't team with them... they pay for the game (or don't as the case may be) the same as you and can play how they want... you don't like it... don't play with them it's that easy... no one is forcing you to...
this is doubly true with all the teaming channels out there... if you have the e-peen size that the OP is saying he does... then you shouldn't have to team with any scrubs... of course seeing the size of his ego it's also possible that no one wants to team with him and he's forces to pug with people because no one else wants to deal with his e-peen scream TRIBBLE.
You're so cool... I want to grow up and be an TRIBBLE just like you... can you tell me how... you're my trollish TRIBBLE hero... tell you what... you don't like the fact that they're not up to your standards... GTFO... why should they leave because of you.... GTFO...
By the way I end up doing about 20k on my science ship... and I'm an RPer... so you have no clue what you're talking about.
If you are doing 20k in your science ship, then his post in no way applies to you (unless you are sitting afk or something). If you took a closer look at the substance of his complaint and the following discussion then you might see that. While he certainly comes off as an eliteist jerk in the OP, that doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.
it kind of cracks me up when people complain... but never willing to help fix or help in any way what people are complaining about..... all they want to do is rage on the Machine and wine till somebody else fixes it... but there is hope.. lot of u tube videos out there trying to help folks.. may not be the way one person dose it .. may seem like a wrong way to others .. but still .. trying... I have been doing this game from first release date.. and one thing BY GAME DESIGN. there is no perfect ship.. no perfect load out.. everyone has a style and preference that works for them.. and part of the game is finding what works and what dose not... so let it go ... when u hear the whiners and the complainers and baby sucking there thumbs about what's right or wrong... well .. they put an ignore option in here for a reason
Remember what ol Jack Burton always dose at a time like this ( Big Trouble in Little China Movie)
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the bar room wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail."
If you are doing 20k in your science ship, then his post in no way applies to you (unless you are sitting afk or something). If you took a closer look at the substance of his complaint and the following discussion then you might see that. While he certainly comes off as an eliteist jerk in the OP, that doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.
Calling someone names doesn't help your argument.
No my point pretty much is that he's an elitist jerk and doesn't have a point. You don't like the fact that someone isn't at your level that's fine but then by saying "you have to do dps and play at this level or you're a troll" is asinine at best. You don't like it, don't pug, go join a channel and team exclusively with them.
Then to lump RPers in with trolls because you obviously think we can't play the game is even more asinine.
Who died and made him the STO police to say how someone needs to play?
I think Cryptic should sell Dmgx3 gear loadouts (ie. bundles of 8 Dmgx3 weapons) while adjusting what Dmg does as a weapon modifier to make it "dumb damage".
This is why I've favored making Dmg weapon haste or some type of BIG enhancement to autofire damage that does nothing to ability damage.
If balanced well, it could allow a weak player (or player who intends to focus on non-damage tasks) to coast on easy to acquire Dmgx3 gear. Whereas skilled players would get more by continuing to avoid Dmg.
Just balance the Dmg mod so that someone with Dmgx4 pressing spacebar can do maybe 80-90% of what a fairly skilled player can do but loses damage scaling ability to surpass skilled players.
Load up on Dmg. Hit spacebar. Do 30k DPS. But also be unable to MORE than 30k DPS. Then cracking 30k would involve ditching Dmg in stages and learning skills.
While that looks good on paper, someone will find a way to maximize dps with this, and this weapon will be the new "must have" weapon. The top dps people will hit new maximums and low dps people will still be where they were before. NPCs will be balanced to compensate or nerfs will be handed out. The net change will be meaningless.
It really boils down to understanding the game mechanics, and taking the steps to make use of that knowledge.
I mostly play science characters myself, and think they do fine. While you are not going to be seeing the large numbers that a tac can pull off, there are things that you can do, that he cannot.
Science is likely the best class in the game. What you do have is Sensor scan.
...
PS.. if you are out there controlling NPCS and Debuffing you are 100% doing your job... and anyone saying otherwise are the ones not understanding the mechanics. I am not saying every sci should be doing 30k DPS either. A good control sci makes the difference... for sure when the rest of the team is low on DPS. A low DPS team can complete most STFs and perhaps even get the optional rewards done most of the time if someone like yourself is controlling the fail conditions and debuffing the heck out of the big stuff.
These are things I know. It's getting some other people to know it too. I call it offset DPS.
That damage resistance debuff we put on gives Tom less to have to punch through in mitigation. It ups his DPS. It would not happen without that debuff. A properly timed well pulls a knot in tight for torpedo spread and scatter volleys. It doesn't help the fire at will guy much but it definitely makes for shooting fish in a barrel for a cannoneer. Not all ships have Sensor Analysis but that stacks for everyone also. Without those things, Tom has less DPS. That is why it is offset. My ship allowed his ship to boost his already high DPS but the parser sees Tom doing it, not me.
But let's skip that part... new console? Name!!!! Cost is irrelevant!
While that looks good on paper, someone will find a way to maximize dps with this, and this weapon will be the new "must have" weapon. The top dps people will hit new maximums and low dps people will still be where they were before. NPCs will be balanced to compensate or nerfs will be handed out. The net change will be meaningless.
It really boils down to understanding the game mechanics, and taking the steps to make use of that knowledge.
Well, I really don't want to have to push in more depth on this but one possibility is that Dmg mod could come with a tradeoff that reduces BO ability effectiveness. Then your biggest issue is with a team setup to carry one player.
No my point pretty much is that he's an elitist jerk and doesn't have a point. You don't like the fact that someone isn't at your level that's fine but then by saying "you have to do dps and play at this level or you're a troll" is asinine at best. You don't like it, don't pug, go join a channel and team exclusively with them.
Then to lump RPers in with trolls because you obviously think we can't play the game is even more asinine.
Who died and made him the STO police to say how someone needs to play?
There was a point, and you missed it in your indignant rage. I am not trying to pick on you or anything like that. I just think that you should take another look at the discussion rather than explode over the single post. And again, yes, his OP was rather hostile.
The point is that people are queueing for STFs and the like with sub-optimal gear/loadouts and/or without a decent understanding of the fight mechanics. This is causing groups he finds himself in to perform poorly. The phrase "a chain is only as strong as the weakest link" comes to mind.
He wasn't taking a direct shot at RP'ers necessarily, so much as people who for whatever reason do not contribute to the successful completion of the mission. I do understand that you are angry over his offhand blanket statement about RP'ers in general, but he is just as equally unhappy about people dragging down his teams whether by malice, or negligence. I have been in his shoes, and understand his complaint, though he could have been a bit more discreet :P.
Well, I really don't want to have to push in more depth on this but one possibility is that Dmg mod could come with a tradeoff that reduces BO ability effectiveness. Then your biggest issue is with a team setup to carry one player.
Another idea, rather than messing with the damage mod (which may have unfortunate side effects) is to offer levelless weapons similar to the blue phasers from the Cstore constitution, or some of the Lobi weapons. These have a specific damage range, and have no ability to crit or benefit from damage modification (these new weapons only). Though somewhere I suspect that there is a hole in that idea somewhere.
There was a point, and you missed it in your indignant rage. I am not trying to pick on you or anything like that. I just think that you should take another look at the discussion rather than explode over the single post. And again, yes, his OP was rather hostile.
The point is that people are queueing for STFs and the like with sub-optimal gear/loadouts and/or without a decent understanding of the fight mechanics. This is causing groups he finds himself in to perform poorly. The phrase "a chain is only as strong as the weakest link" comes to mind.
He wasn't taking a direct shot at RP'ers necessarily, so much as people who for whatever reason do not contribute to the successful completion of the mission. I do understand that you are angry over his offhand blanket statement about RP'ers in general, but he is just as equally unhappy about people dragging down his teams whether by malice, or negligence. I have been in his shoes, and understand his complaint, though he could have been a bit more discreet :P.
No I actually get that we've all been there, but again, he doesn't like it...don't pug and if this isn't a pug, it's his own damn fault.
Obviously people can get better but contrary but obviously since we high dps people are the significant minirity in this game, there is very good reasons why players aren't doing it, and yez it may be because of playstyle, and he has no right to dictate someone's playstyle because he chose to pug.
The other option is to help them. Now credit where credit is due I have seen him come to help me with my science ship posts and help people, so he does help when asked, but basically if you pug you have to accept you're getting probably 5 different playstyles in there and if you don't like it...gtfo.
Who cares... if you don't like the fact that they're not up to your level of e-peen status... then either GTFO or don't team with them... they pay for the game (or don't as the case may be) the same as you and can play how they want... you don't like it... don't play with them it's that easy... no one is forcing you to...
this is doubly true with all the teaming channels out there... if you have the e-peen size that the OP is saying he does... then you shouldn't have to team with any scrubs... of course seeing the size of his ego it's also possible that no one wants to team with him and he's forces to pug with people because no one else wants to deal with his e-peen scream TRIBBLE.
Reading comprehension. You should look into your local education system and see if they offer any remedial classes in it.
Honestly yes it is 1000x easier to simply only use DPS channels... or team with my friends to run the games content.
Cryptic has however added a very handy Quick Que system... they have made a point of Locking Elite content out to those that are not at level 60 yet. They have also made it clear that Advanced is harder then Normal.. and Elite isn't intended for everyone. Yet tons of players clearly not equipped to handle the content they have qued up for continue to do just that.
So yes I say Cryptic should do something about that. Not for me... WTH do I care this game is boring I come back and play it now cause I'm trek nerd like the rest of you. If I want a real challenge why would I play STO. Only challenge in this game is trying to get a bunch of obvious NON-gamers though some STFs. (so perhaps I shouldn't be saying anything, overcoming the average level of suck is the fun in this game perhaps).
Anyway read though the thread some good ideas have come up. Cookie Cutter ships... ya not likely to happen or help really. Some training Missions... I think that is the more realistic fix for the issue.
As others have said... 5-10k DPS is more then viable if the people playing those toons understand the content they are playing and work at least somewhat as a team. If your doing under 5k then you should be spending your time on the forums reading more then posting.
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the bar room wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail."
No I actually get that we've all been there, but again, he doesn't like it...don't pug and if this isn't a pug, it's his own damn fault.
Obviously people can get better but contrary but obviously since we high dps people are the significant minirity in this game, there is very good reasons why players aren't doing it, and yez it may be because of playstyle, and he has no right to dictate someone's playstyle because he chose to pug.
The other option is to help them. Now credit where credit is due I have seen him come to help me with my science ship posts and help people, so he does help when asked, but basically if you pug you have to accept you're getting probably 5 different playstyles in there and if you don't like it...gtfo.
So it's perfectly acceptable to effectively drag a team down and waste the time of four other players who may have limited time, because a player either refuses bring themselves up to a bare minimum level of ability or refuses to learn game mechanics?
You are effectively doing what he did, telling him to play a certain way or GTFO. Why is that acceptable? If people do not want to cooperate and work for the greater good, then they should not queue. There is plenty of solo play content to accommodate.
Trying to help them only goes so far. A person has to want to accept help offered. Some people simply do not want to bothered, and spurn any offered help or advice...sometimes quite rudely.
The point is that people are queueing for STFs and the like with sub-optimal gear/loadouts and/or without a decent understanding of the fight mechanics. This is causing groups he finds himself in to perform poorly.
Yes, some people are queuing for STFs in public queues, forming PUGs, and they're not ready or experienced enough for it. I'll agree on that one.
Myself, I don't do STFs unless there's some kind of special incentive (like the Borg BOff) and I'll do it at the lowest difficulty possible, one time (or just enough to get the reason for being there in the first place), with a statement on entry of something like "guys, I'm only here for the BOff, but I'll help out as best I can". Usually for those STFs, everyone knows what they're there for and it's an understood thing. Get it done and go on our way. But I know my own capabilities and they don't include STFs, I avoid them and that's fine for me 'cause I honestly don't like STFs.
Many players don't do STFs or even know WTF we're talking about or what it means.
Not everyone is like me though and they queue up unprepared for that level of play (even on Normal) either ignorant of the demands or trying to piggyback others. Happens here, happened in WoW, happens all over.
While those players are a nuisance to the OP and others like him, here's the point that he's not getting:
This is causing groups he finds himself in to perform poorly.
He's queuing for public groups knowing the danger of being grouped with such players. Now, if he's so experienced as to sit and berate others on their poor play or understanding of mechanics or numbers or the way the stars align just for him (and even has the audacity while doing so to claim that he's trying to "help" those players), then he's experienced enough to know the features of the game that allow him to separate himself from those other players and still play the STFs he finds enjoyable.
Instead, he continually chooses to put himself in those groups and subject himself to such frustration, then claims the whole game and all the population other than himself needs to change.
He's epic-level all right. Truly epic.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
These are things I know. It's getting some other people to know it too. I call it offset DPS.
That damage resistance debuff we put on gives Tom less to have to punch through in mitigation. It ups his DPS. It would not happen without that debuff. A properly timed well pulls a knot in tight for torpedo spread and scatter volleys. It doesn't help the fire at will guy much but it definitely makes for shooting fish in a barrel for a cannoneer. Not all ships have Sensor Analysis but that stacks for everyone also. Without those things, Tom has less DPS. That is why it is offset. My ship allowed his ship to boost his already high DPS but the parser sees Tom doing it, not me.
But let's skip that part... new console? Name!!!! Cost is irrelevant!
Constriction Anchor. I think it is.
If you search Gold quality in Engi consoles it should be the first to show up. Ya there dirt cheap right now as they come out of the latest box. Grab one for all your toons now.
I think its 26% or so bonus Exotic dmg base....
The Anchor thing is usable as well... another control method. Seems to work well if you fire it into a GW full of borg.
If you search Gold quality in Engi consoles it should be the first to show up. Ya there dirt cheap right now as they come out of the latest box. Grab one for all your toons now.
I think its 26% or so bonus Exotic dmg base....
The Anchor thing is usable as well... another control method. Seems to work well if you fire it into a GW full of borg.
So it's perfectly acceptable to effectively drag a team down and waste the time of four other players who may have limited time, because a player either refuses bring themselves up to a bare minimum level of ability or refuses to learn game mechanics?
You are effectively doing what he did, telling him to play a certain way or GTFO. Why is that acceptable? If people do not want to cooperate and work for the greater good, then they should not queue. There is plenty of solo play content to accommodate.
Trying to help them only goes so far. A person has to want to accept help offered. Some people simply do not want to bothered, and spurn any offered help or advice...sometimes quite rudely.
What am I saying not to do? Pug.. no he can just accept the consequences and stop trying to make people conform to his idea of fun. Stop doing stfs... nope he can do that. Stop being a total elist TRIBBLE... okay maybe on that one I am.
I am not saying it's fun... and I am not saying it doesn't suck... but stop trying to force people into cookie cutter builds because you're not having fun
Please just sell ships with Hard fixed weapons and consoles. Develop a system to let people upgrade them a bit if you want to try to make some extra cash.
BUT Stop giving people options.
Cause when you give them options they start thinking the stupidest things you can imagine are good ideas for there ship builds.
I am sick of popping in now and then to play this game and realizing that a quick PvE Que is a no go because the average player in this game is beyond help.
Just spoon feed them please. There is no excuse for ships doing under 10k DPS anymore. The only conclusion is that players doing under that are Trolls / RPers that might as well be trolls... or just not intelligent enough to realize the game design is DPS DPS DPS....
Some stuff just won't work folks... One of each weapon type... Torp/Beam/Single Canon/Torp... ect ect.
Just sell them preset STF Approved ships... they need it.
I don't even do STF's on elite level. Just normal one's. For fun, you do remember 'fun' don't you? On a serious note, STF preset ships? Fine, as long as the excisting ships keep their options for customization. People should decide for themselves how they want to build their ships for other purposes. And then jump in with these STF preset ships to do STF's. It's a good idea. But customization for excisting ships should stay.
No I actually get that we've all been there, but again, he doesn't like it...don't pug and if this isn't a pug, it's his own damn fault.
Obviously people can get better but contrary but obviously since we high dps people are the significant minirity in this game, there is very good reasons why players aren't doing it, and yez it may be because of playstyle, and he has no right to dictate someone's playstyle because he chose to pug.
The other option is to help them. Now credit where credit is due I have seen him come to help me with my science ship posts and help people, so he does help when asked, but basically if you pug you have to accept you're getting probably 5 different playstyles in there and if you don't like it...gtfo.
For what its worth though... sorry I offended you.
I wasn't trying to make blanket statements about RP players or anyone else. Though I had just finished a failed STF run where people where clearly NOT trolling they where just bad. If one of them was trying to fail it at least I could laugh it off as got trolled... but these people where clearly trying they just where running the silliest setups. (at least from what I noticed)
Anyway yes... I understand when pugging you should expect anything... and if you get a team with 4 engi cruisers that is the way it is. Still even the worst possible setup should be able to get though this games PvE... as long as the people playing understand what they should be doing in there ships.
As I have said earlier in the thread... prebuild ships... not the best idea.
Training missions I think that is something Cryptic should look into. Explain to new players that Weapons have distance fall off... explain to them what overcapping weapon power does... explain to them how Resistance and Defense work and how the 2 can allow you to tank dmg.
I would say even go as far as have some missions that do nothing but explain the workings of the games Staple skills. Explain Hazard Emiters and what debfuffs it clears (and what NPCs are likely to hit you with those debuffs)... explain Sci team and Tac team... EPTx... it shouldn't be that hard to create a great short series of missions that could set people on the game with a lot better understanding. I would think we would see far fewer end game players in ships that melt as soon as a borg looks at them... as well as not being able to kill something like a probe even if they had 10 min to do it in. These people can be taught... they figured out how to log in and how to get there toons to 60... surely a Cryptic made training mission could help them with the basics... and YES 3-5k DPS should be basic. I would argue 10k should be... but yes I understand that some people build for Max control and sacrifice dmg to do it.
For what its worth though... sorry I offended you.
I wasn't trying to make blanket statements about RP players or anyone else. Though I had just finished a failed STF run where people where clearly NOT trolling they where just bad. If one of them was trying to fail it at least I could laugh it off as got trolled... but these people where clearly trying they just where running the silliest setups. (at least from what I noticed)
Anyway yes... I understand when pugging you should expect anything... and if you get a team with 4 engi cruisers that is the way it is. Still even the worst possible setup should be able to get though this games PvE... as long as the people playing understand what they should be doing in there ships.
As I have said earlier in the thread... prebuild ships... not the best idea.
Training missions I think that is something Cryptic should look into. Explain to new players that Weapons have distance fall off... explain to them what overcapping weapon power does... explain to them how Resistance and Defense work and how the 2 can allow you to tank dmg.
I would say even go as far as have some missions that do nothing but explain the workings of the games Staple skills. Explain Hazard Emiters and what debfuffs it clears (and what NPCs are likely to hit you with those debuffs)... explain Sci team and Tac team... EPTx... it shouldn't be that hard to create a great short series of missions that could set people on the game with a lot better understanding. I would think we would see far fewer end game players in ships that melt as soon as a borg looks at them... as well as not being able to kill something like a probe even if they had 10 min to do it in. These people can be taught... they figured out how to log in and how to get there toons to 60... surely a Cryptic made training mission could help them with the basics... and YES 3-5k DPS should be basic. I would argue 10k should be... but yes I understand that some people build for Max control and sacrifice dmg to do it.
No worries I get that we sometimes spout off in frustration. For what it's worth I do believe Cryptic can do more to gate people into advanced and elites and I think they can do advanced tutorials as well in game, though I disagree with the lesz options part.
And I get your frustration at rpers with concept builds though most od them I know stick to normals with those. I guess the point is, I know where your coming from, and you are right that people need to be gated and be helped, but you can not totally dictate play style to people, nor give them less options.
What am I saying not to do? Pug.. no he can just accept the consequences and stop trying to make people conform to his idea of fun. Stop doing stfs... nope he can do that. Stop being a total elist TRIBBLE... okay maybe on that one I am.
I am not saying it's fun... and I am not saying it doesn't suck... but stop trying to force people into cookie cutter builds because you're not having fun
Lets all break one major misconception here.
Players that are FAILING Elite or even Advanced Ques... are Not doing it cause that is how they want to play. (of course there is the odd real troll but the majority are not)
How many threads have we seen complaining about the Mission Fail stuff.
They are NOT happy either.
For the record I never blew up in any game chat... telling people they where worthless. I was annoyed sure but I'm not a **** to anyone. If anyone ever messages me in game and asks for advice I go out of my way to help. I used to the odd time offer help. (and yes I was always diplomatic and nice about it)... some times people where cool and I made a few friends that way. Other times they told me to stick it and /ignored me... so to be honest I stopped. Its not worth it.
However Cryptic is in the business of selling a game. So it should be in there interest to make sure people are having fun. (NO not talking about me here). Talking about all these people that are constantly failing missions. Clearly they are missing something... as some people can walk though the content and love to post videos of there 2min runs... while others can't manage to get past the first fail conditions.
The difference of course is know how. Yes directly its builds ect... but why do the best players use X or Y skill or item... Perhaps its time Cryptic create some basic training mission to explain at least the games broad stroke designs to newish players. We have all found out interesting things about the game by talking to each other... all of us. Think of all the stuff you have learned about this game... and then pretend your a 2 week old player and you have never heard any of that... and you have yourself a level 60 toon cause all the leveling missions where so easy the default ship setups where fine.
Those players could use a hand... and coming from me on the forums means NOTHING. Its up to Cryptic to put it in game... and imo it would make a Killer RP style chain of training missions. (See I love the RP lol)
While those players are a nuisance to the OP and others like him, here's the point that he's not getting:
He's queuing for public groups knowing the danger of being grouped with such players. Now, if he's so experienced as to sit and berate others on their poor play or understanding of mechanics or numbers or the way the stars align just for him (and even has the audacity while doing so to claim that he's trying to "help" those players), then he's experienced enough to know the features of the game that allow him to separate himself from those other players and still play the STFs he finds enjoyable.
Instead, he continually chooses to put himself in those groups and subject himself to such frustration, then claims the whole game and all the population other than himself needs to change.
He's epic-level all right. Truly epic.
He does get that point. The problem is that too many people find it acceptable to drag others down, and will make excuses for those who do it.
Just because it is a PUG and is pretty much anonymous, does NOT make it ok to drag the others down. Even though that person may never group with those players again, doesn't make it acceptable.
It is not unreasonable to expect someone who clicks on the queue for events button to be useful and understand the event they are queuing for.
50k dps is not required for advanced events. A decent understanding of mechanics and a decent ship build is not an unreasonable requirement.
I would love to see one of these discussions handled in a constructive way. A guide to builds that are effective, a way of achieving the DPS numbers that you think people should be reaching or anything at all that doesn't come across as a slightly elitist rant.
That would be a far more effective way of achieving your goal - which I presume is to find more players in random groups that will be able to handle themselves.
Please just sell ships with Hard fixed weapons and consoles. Develop a system to let people upgrade them a bit if you want to try to make some extra cash.
BUT Stop giving people options.
Cause when you give them options they start thinking the stupidest things you can imagine are good ideas for there ship builds.
I am sick of popping in now and then to play this game and realizing that a quick PvE Que is a no go because the average player in this game is beyond help.
Just spoon feed them please. There is no excuse for ships doing under 10k DPS anymore. The only conclusion is that players doing under that are Trolls / RPers that might as well be trolls... or just not intelligent enough to realize the game design is DPS DPS DPS....
Some stuff just won't work folks... One of each weapon type... Torp/Beam/Single Canon/Torp... ect ect.
Just sell them preset STF Approved ships... they need it.
No worries I get that we sometimes spout off in frustration. For what it's worth I do believe Cryptic can do more to gate people into advanced and elites and I think they can do advanced tutorials as well in game, though I disagree with the lesz options part.
And I get your frustration at rpers with concept builds though most od them I know stick to normals with those. I guess the point is, I know where your coming from, and you are right that people need to be gated and be helped, but you can not totally dictate play style to people, nor give them less options.
In fairness I have seen some very good "RP" type builds out there. There isn't anything wrong with phaser and photon ships. OR a Sovi rocking a Quantum HY. I can only remember one instance where someone told me they where RPing and I wanted to smack them... but I don't think they let you into the STFs in a shuttle anymore. lol
I hear ya though... when I am experimenting with something new, I will do it in a patrol.. or a normal que, perhaps an Advanced if I knew well enough that it would work. I don't understand why anyone would be running something completely new to them and jump right into an Elite. lol Which ever though it is just a game in the end.
Comments
I mostly play science characters myself, and think they do fine. While you are not going to be seeing the large numbers that a tac can pull off, there are things that you can do, that he cannot.
Sensor scan debuffs a target's damage resistance, and if you have the sensor officer slotted on your active duty officer roster, then it will also debuff the target's damage output.
Photonic fleet is also pretty useful. More often than not those photonic ships will draw fire off of you. They also can, when properly used, inflict a fair amount of damage. The KDF version can fire bio-neural warheads (raptors) , and isometric charges (neghvar). The fed version has torpedo spread 3 (Typhoon). Combine this with your sensor scan, and other debuffs. If you have the photonic capacitor trait slotted then this ability will cycle faster every time you activate a science ability.
Subnucleonic beam is a very nice ability. I love it. It strips buffs off a target. There are many very nasty buffs npcs get in queued events. One example is feedback pulse the borg queen has in both Hive Onslaught, and Borg Disconnected. There is also the attack pattern delta that the Voth boss ship has which is really nasty. Being able to strip those away will save your group a great deal of grief. A tactical officer will do 0 damage when he is flying a debris field.
Scattering field is very useful in mitigating enemy damage output. Any sort of energy damage is reduced in the field's area. CE's beam is mitigated by this (so is the shockwave, but it's better to not be hit by that :P).
Remember, it's not just about you. It's about what you can bring to the table in a group environment. Damage is part of it, the other is playing smart, and using your abilities effectively. Knowing the mission you queued for, and understanding the fight mechanics goes quite a ways toward this, so that you know what bridge officer abilities, consoles, and devices will be optimal.
Tac officers are not the end of the game. They are just a part of it.
You're so cool... I want to grow up and be an TRIBBLE just like you... can you tell me how... you're my trollish TRIBBLE hero... tell you what... you don't like the fact that they're not up to your standards... GTFO... why should they leave because of you.... GTFO...
By the way I end up doing about 20k on my science ship... and I'm an RPer... so you have no clue what you're talking about.
1-3K >>>>>>> 4-10K >>>>>>> OMGWTFBBQ 100K
Unviable >>>>>> Viable >>>>>>> Hypercompetitive
A lot of people are jumping on the OP and making him out to be saying, "Everyone needs to be hypercompetitive level or GTFO." I don't think that's it. What I understand is that there are waaaaay too many people who don't seem to have any idea how to play the game, to the point that they are simply not viable in Advanced/Elite, and yet persist in joining and forcing others to make up for their lack. Granted, a fair bit of rage there, but frankly, IMO, it's justified in many cases.
Sure, if you want to play your way, all well and good. But since you expect people not to interfere with your desire to play your way, why are you interfering with other's desire to play their way, aka to win? Isn't it courteous to at least achieve minimum viability so that you don't waste another player's time?
There is a difference between wanting everyone to focus on DPS and nothing else, and wanting others to at least be viable enough to successfully complete a mission. One is being elitist, and the other is plain common sense. Isn't it?
Anyway, cookie cutter equip builds would be interesting, to say the least. But I doubt it solves the root problem, which is an ignorance of how the game works. And frankly, I don't blame them. This game is pretty darn esoteric even at its easiest.
This is why I've favored making Dmg weapon haste or some type of BIG enhancement to autofire damage that does nothing to ability damage.
If balanced well, it could allow a weak player (or player who intends to focus on non-damage tasks) to coast on easy to acquire Dmgx3 gear. Whereas skilled players would get more by continuing to avoid Dmg.
Just balance the Dmg mod so that someone with Dmgx4 pressing spacebar can do maybe 80-90% of what a fairly skilled player can do but loses damage scaling ability to surpass skilled players.
Load up on Dmg. Hit spacebar. Do 30k DPS. But also be unable to MORE than 30k DPS. Then cracking 30k would involve ditching Dmg in stages and learning skills.
Who cares... if you don't like the fact that they're not up to your level of e-peen status... then either GTFO or don't team with them... they pay for the game (or don't as the case may be) the same as you and can play how they want... you don't like it... don't play with them it's that easy... no one is forcing you to...
this is doubly true with all the teaming channels out there... if you have the e-peen size that the OP is saying he does... then you shouldn't have to team with any scrubs... of course seeing the size of his ego it's also possible that no one wants to team with him and he's forces to pug with people because no one else wants to deal with his e-peen scream TRIBBLE.
If you are doing 20k in your science ship, then his post in no way applies to you (unless you are sitting afk or something). If you took a closer look at the substance of his complaint and the following discussion then you might see that. While he certainly comes off as an eliteist jerk in the OP, that doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.
Calling someone names doesn't help your argument.
Remember what ol Jack Burton always dose at a time like this ( Big Trouble in Little China Movie)
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the bar room wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail."
No my point pretty much is that he's an elitist jerk and doesn't have a point. You don't like the fact that someone isn't at your level that's fine but then by saying "you have to do dps and play at this level or you're a troll" is asinine at best. You don't like it, don't pug, go join a channel and team exclusively with them.
Then to lump RPers in with trolls because you obviously think we can't play the game is even more asinine.
Who died and made him the STO police to say how someone needs to play?
While that looks good on paper, someone will find a way to maximize dps with this, and this weapon will be the new "must have" weapon. The top dps people will hit new maximums and low dps people will still be where they were before. NPCs will be balanced to compensate or nerfs will be handed out. The net change will be meaningless.
It really boils down to understanding the game mechanics, and taking the steps to make use of that knowledge.
These are things I know. It's getting some other people to know it too. I call it offset DPS.
That damage resistance debuff we put on gives Tom less to have to punch through in mitigation. It ups his DPS. It would not happen without that debuff. A properly timed well pulls a knot in tight for torpedo spread and scatter volleys. It doesn't help the fire at will guy much but it definitely makes for shooting fish in a barrel for a cannoneer. Not all ships have Sensor Analysis but that stacks for everyone also. Without those things, Tom has less DPS. That is why it is offset. My ship allowed his ship to boost his already high DPS but the parser sees Tom doing it, not me.
But let's skip that part... new console? Name!!!! Cost is irrelevant!
3k DPS as e-peen status? I'm thinking that's the other thing...you know, it's not an outie it's an innie....
Well, I really don't want to have to push in more depth on this but one possibility is that Dmg mod could come with a tradeoff that reduces BO ability effectiveness. Then your biggest issue is with a team setup to carry one player.
There was a point, and you missed it in your indignant rage. I am not trying to pick on you or anything like that. I just think that you should take another look at the discussion rather than explode over the single post. And again, yes, his OP was rather hostile.
The point is that people are queueing for STFs and the like with sub-optimal gear/loadouts and/or without a decent understanding of the fight mechanics. This is causing groups he finds himself in to perform poorly. The phrase "a chain is only as strong as the weakest link" comes to mind.
He wasn't taking a direct shot at RP'ers necessarily, so much as people who for whatever reason do not contribute to the successful completion of the mission. I do understand that you are angry over his offhand blanket statement about RP'ers in general, but he is just as equally unhappy about people dragging down his teams whether by malice, or negligence. I have been in his shoes, and understand his complaint, though he could have been a bit more discreet :P.
Another idea, rather than messing with the damage mod (which may have unfortunate side effects) is to offer levelless weapons similar to the blue phasers from the Cstore constitution, or some of the Lobi weapons. These have a specific damage range, and have no ability to crit or benefit from damage modification (these new weapons only). Though somewhere I suspect that there is a hole in that idea somewhere.
No I actually get that we've all been there, but again, he doesn't like it...don't pug and if this isn't a pug, it's his own damn fault.
Obviously people can get better but contrary but obviously since we high dps people are the significant minirity in this game, there is very good reasons why players aren't doing it, and yez it may be because of playstyle, and he has no right to dictate someone's playstyle because he chose to pug.
The other option is to help them. Now credit where credit is due I have seen him come to help me with my science ship posts and help people, so he does help when asked, but basically if you pug you have to accept you're getting probably 5 different playstyles in there and if you don't like it...gtfo.
Reading comprehension. You should look into your local education system and see if they offer any remedial classes in it.
Honestly yes it is 1000x easier to simply only use DPS channels... or team with my friends to run the games content.
Cryptic has however added a very handy Quick Que system... they have made a point of Locking Elite content out to those that are not at level 60 yet. They have also made it clear that Advanced is harder then Normal.. and Elite isn't intended for everyone. Yet tons of players clearly not equipped to handle the content they have qued up for continue to do just that.
So yes I say Cryptic should do something about that. Not for me... WTH do I care this game is boring I come back and play it now cause I'm trek nerd like the rest of you. If I want a real challenge why would I play STO. Only challenge in this game is trying to get a bunch of obvious NON-gamers though some STFs. (so perhaps I shouldn't be saying anything, overcoming the average level of suck is the fun in this game perhaps).
Anyway read though the thread some good ideas have come up. Cookie Cutter ships... ya not likely to happen or help really. Some training Missions... I think that is the more realistic fix for the issue.
As others have said... 5-10k DPS is more then viable if the people playing those toons understand the content they are playing and work at least somewhat as a team. If your doing under 5k then you should be spending your time on the forums reading more then posting.
LOL made me laugh.
So it's perfectly acceptable to effectively drag a team down and waste the time of four other players who may have limited time, because a player either refuses bring themselves up to a bare minimum level of ability or refuses to learn game mechanics?
You are effectively doing what he did, telling him to play a certain way or GTFO. Why is that acceptable? If people do not want to cooperate and work for the greater good, then they should not queue. There is plenty of solo play content to accommodate.
Trying to help them only goes so far. A person has to want to accept help offered. Some people simply do not want to bothered, and spurn any offered help or advice...sometimes quite rudely.
Yes, some people are queuing for STFs in public queues, forming PUGs, and they're not ready or experienced enough for it. I'll agree on that one.
Myself, I don't do STFs unless there's some kind of special incentive (like the Borg BOff) and I'll do it at the lowest difficulty possible, one time (or just enough to get the reason for being there in the first place), with a statement on entry of something like "guys, I'm only here for the BOff, but I'll help out as best I can". Usually for those STFs, everyone knows what they're there for and it's an understood thing. Get it done and go on our way. But I know my own capabilities and they don't include STFs, I avoid them and that's fine for me 'cause I honestly don't like STFs.
Many players don't do STFs or even know WTF we're talking about or what it means.
Not everyone is like me though and they queue up unprepared for that level of play (even on Normal) either ignorant of the demands or trying to piggyback others. Happens here, happened in WoW, happens all over.
While those players are a nuisance to the OP and others like him, here's the point that he's not getting:
He's queuing for public groups knowing the danger of being grouped with such players. Now, if he's so experienced as to sit and berate others on their poor play or understanding of mechanics or numbers or the way the stars align just for him (and even has the audacity while doing so to claim that he's trying to "help" those players), then he's experienced enough to know the features of the game that allow him to separate himself from those other players and still play the STFs he finds enjoyable.
Instead, he continually chooses to put himself in those groups and subject himself to such frustration, then claims the whole game and all the population other than himself needs to change.
He's epic-level all right. Truly epic.
Constriction Anchor. I think it is.
If you search Gold quality in Engi consoles it should be the first to show up. Ya there dirt cheap right now as they come out of the latest box. Grab one for all your toons now.
I think its 26% or so bonus Exotic dmg base....
The Anchor thing is usable as well... another control method. Seems to work well if you fire it into a GW full of borg.
+23.7% Bonus Exotic Damage...and yeah, they're pretty cheap.
What am I saying not to do? Pug.. no he can just accept the consequences and stop trying to make people conform to his idea of fun. Stop doing stfs... nope he can do that. Stop being a total elist TRIBBLE... okay maybe on that one I am.
I am not saying it's fun... and I am not saying it doesn't suck... but stop trying to force people into cookie cutter builds because you're not having fun
I don't even do STF's on elite level. Just normal one's. For fun, you do remember 'fun' don't you? On a serious note, STF preset ships? Fine, as long as the excisting ships keep their options for customization. People should decide for themselves how they want to build their ships for other purposes. And then jump in with these STF preset ships to do STF's. It's a good idea. But customization for excisting ships should stay.
For what its worth though... sorry I offended you.
I wasn't trying to make blanket statements about RP players or anyone else. Though I had just finished a failed STF run where people where clearly NOT trolling they where just bad. If one of them was trying to fail it at least I could laugh it off as got trolled... but these people where clearly trying they just where running the silliest setups. (at least from what I noticed)
Anyway yes... I understand when pugging you should expect anything... and if you get a team with 4 engi cruisers that is the way it is. Still even the worst possible setup should be able to get though this games PvE... as long as the people playing understand what they should be doing in there ships.
As I have said earlier in the thread... prebuild ships... not the best idea.
Training missions I think that is something Cryptic should look into. Explain to new players that Weapons have distance fall off... explain to them what overcapping weapon power does... explain to them how Resistance and Defense work and how the 2 can allow you to tank dmg.
I would say even go as far as have some missions that do nothing but explain the workings of the games Staple skills. Explain Hazard Emiters and what debfuffs it clears (and what NPCs are likely to hit you with those debuffs)... explain Sci team and Tac team... EPTx... it shouldn't be that hard to create a great short series of missions that could set people on the game with a lot better understanding. I would think we would see far fewer end game players in ships that melt as soon as a borg looks at them... as well as not being able to kill something like a probe even if they had 10 min to do it in. These people can be taught... they figured out how to log in and how to get there toons to 60... surely a Cryptic made training mission could help them with the basics... and YES 3-5k DPS should be basic. I would argue 10k should be... but yes I understand that some people build for Max control and sacrifice dmg to do it.
No worries I get that we sometimes spout off in frustration. For what it's worth I do believe Cryptic can do more to gate people into advanced and elites and I think they can do advanced tutorials as well in game, though I disagree with the lesz options part.
And I get your frustration at rpers with concept builds though most od them I know stick to normals with those. I guess the point is, I know where your coming from, and you are right that people need to be gated and be helped, but you can not totally dictate play style to people, nor give them less options.
Lets all break one major misconception here.
Players that are FAILING Elite or even Advanced Ques... are Not doing it cause that is how they want to play. (of course there is the odd real troll but the majority are not)
How many threads have we seen complaining about the Mission Fail stuff.
They are NOT happy either.
For the record I never blew up in any game chat... telling people they where worthless. I was annoyed sure but I'm not a **** to anyone. If anyone ever messages me in game and asks for advice I go out of my way to help. I used to the odd time offer help. (and yes I was always diplomatic and nice about it)... some times people where cool and I made a few friends that way. Other times they told me to stick it and /ignored me... so to be honest I stopped. Its not worth it.
However Cryptic is in the business of selling a game. So it should be in there interest to make sure people are having fun. (NO not talking about me here). Talking about all these people that are constantly failing missions. Clearly they are missing something... as some people can walk though the content and love to post videos of there 2min runs... while others can't manage to get past the first fail conditions.
The difference of course is know how. Yes directly its builds ect... but why do the best players use X or Y skill or item... Perhaps its time Cryptic create some basic training mission to explain at least the games broad stroke designs to newish players. We have all found out interesting things about the game by talking to each other... all of us. Think of all the stuff you have learned about this game... and then pretend your a 2 week old player and you have never heard any of that... and you have yourself a level 60 toon cause all the leveling missions where so easy the default ship setups where fine.
Those players could use a hand... and coming from me on the forums means NOTHING. Its up to Cryptic to put it in game... and imo it would make a Killer RP style chain of training missions. (See I love the RP lol)
He does get that point. The problem is that too many people find it acceptable to drag others down, and will make excuses for those who do it.
Just because it is a PUG and is pretty much anonymous, does NOT make it ok to drag the others down. Even though that person may never group with those players again, doesn't make it acceptable.
It is not unreasonable to expect someone who clicks on the queue for events button to be useful and understand the event they are queuing for.
50k dps is not required for advanced events. A decent understanding of mechanics and a decent ship build is not an unreasonable requirement.
That would be a far more effective way of achieving your goal - which I presume is to find more players in random groups that will be able to handle themselves.
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In fairness I have seen some very good "RP" type builds out there. There isn't anything wrong with phaser and photon ships. OR a Sovi rocking a Quantum HY. I can only remember one instance where someone told me they where RPing and I wanted to smack them... but I don't think they let you into the STFs in a shuttle anymore.
I hear ya though... when I am experimenting with something new, I will do it in a patrol.. or a normal que, perhaps an Advanced if I knew well enough that it would work. I don't understand why anyone would be running something completely new to them and jump right into an Elite. lol Which ever though it is just a game in the end.