1: Don't think its really next to Earth, but the travel times were squewed. I think it took days at least for the NX-01 to reach Qo'nos from Earth at around Warp 4, and that was with detours to find Klang after the Suliban took him.
2: Probably never perfected or put into widespread use. Kinda like the Genesis Device over traditional Terraforming. Would also probably make Starfleet redundant, and that wouldn't exactly work out.
3: Not all Klingons may have been affected by the Augment Virus that made them look more human, or some were affected in a different way. And the Romulans looked about the same as they did through TNG with the facial features. The fact most of them were bald "Thugs" probably went with the fact they were actually miners and not Military. The hologram of Nero's wife had hair.
4: Again, the Transwarp Beaming may not have been put into widespread use. And it was tachnically a Vulcan design, not Federation.
5: Again, the Narada's crew were Miners, not Military. Also... being hellbent on revenge kinda causes tunnel vision.
1) Yes, the travel time was screwed.
2) Old Spock and scotty whipped one together pretty easily. Genesis device was a dead end failure anyways.
3) They were all pointless and unnecessary 'reinventions' of thigns that were fine before. The Romulans were quite clearly different. The lack of forehead ridges should be a giveaway, for one. Making them miners was just a lazy excuse to reinvent Romulans as generic bald, trenchcoat wearing badguys. Long hair+ Gowns weren't exactly something we saw Romulans wear TNG onwards either. So the accusation that they retconned the Romulans has a lot of merit I think.
4) a) Vulcans are part of the Federation. It's a Federation design. b) If one could be so easily jury-rigged as it was in trek 2009 in such short a timeframe, there really isn't much of an excuse for them not being in widespread use in Primeverse.
5) A Thin excuse. They wanted some generic, evil looking aliens and 'Romulan' was just the name they drew from a hat. They didn't act or look anything like any Romulan from any of the series. For that matter, neither did their ship. The only similarity with their species was the name and the pointy ears. Heck, they almost didn't even catch the fact that Romulans have green blood.
Sorry, but I wanna vent here a bit cuz I keep seeing the JJ Abrams version getting dissed.
Simple as this; JJ Trek is an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE Trek. If the Prime future was erased, then Prime Spock would cease to exist. And if he ceased to exist, then he could not have gone back in time with Nero in the 2400's, could he?
Spock & Nero just migrated over to the other Universe much like we would move a character from one Instance/Server to another. Wibbly-Wobbly, Timey-Wimey!
Funny how everyone loses their marbles about the Abrams Trek, yet no one has the slightest bit of worry about the Abrams Star Wars. Are we really more immature than SW fans??
(And BTW, yes I know about the typo in the title. I'd correct it if I could)
well
1) JJ has stated he was a bigger SW fan instead of a ST fan so I expect better things in SW VII.
2) for SW JJ is adding to the Lore (set after VI) whereas in ST he "f'd" with the lore by means of alternate universes
3) I loved the new Enterprise......up until we go to Engineering.....for a vessel launched in 2245 why does engineering and the warp core look like something off of an aircraft carrier.... its NCC-1701 not CVN-80 for god sake.
It doesn't 'replace' Trek, and it isn't as good to me as the Trek versions I love, but it's still good fun nonetheless.
Folks who freak out over JJ-Trek just really need to lighten up.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,862Community Moderator
edited November 2014
I disagree with the Romulans being retconned. The lack of ridges could be a regional thing, kinda like Asian facial features compared to European, or it could be a nod to the fact that the TOS Romulans didn't have them either. And the Narada not behaving like a Romulan ship is due to the fact she isn't a standard Romulan ship anymore. In a couple outside sources, one being STO itself and another the Countdown comics, it is explained that the Narada was retrofitted with Borg tech at the Vault by the Tal Shiar. And miners aren't as organized as military, which is what we're used to seeing on screen. Most of the Romulans we've seen on screen were either military or government. We didn't see many civilians. I saw some behind the scenes stuff, and they WANTED the miners to have a dirty look because mining isn't a clean job.
As to how quickly Prime Spock and Scotty made a Transwarp Beaming system... Scotty was the guy who originally came up with the theory, and Spock just provided his complete formula from the future. From there, it was apparently easy to beam aboard the Enterprise from a ready Transporter Pad after inputting the formula into the computer and letting it calculate. The rest could be explained as the ever popular... Plot Hole.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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Sorry, but I wanna vent here a bit cuz I keep seeing the JJ Abrams version getting dissed.
Simple as this; JJ Trek is an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE Trek. If the Prime future was erased, then Prime Spock would cease to exist. And if he ceased to exist, then he could not have gone back in time with Nero in the 2400's, could he?
Spock & Nero just migrated over to the other Universe much like we would move a character from one Instance/Server to another. Wibbly-Wobbly, Timey-Wimey!
Funny how everyone loses their marbles about the Abrams Trek, yet no one has the slightest bit of worry about the Abrams Star Wars. Are we really more immature than SW fans??
(And BTW, yes I know about the typo in the title. I'd correct it if I could)
Well for one thing Abrams loves Star Wars so much that he was afraid to even touch it at first.. Star Trek he had no previous interest in, and decided to recreate it into something he enjoyed more..
For another.. the Star Wars prequels were soooo horrible.. It's actually a giant relief to have Abrams on them.. He's shown himself to make good movies..
I felt Star Trek 2009 was a good movie.. it was just kind of was a disservice to the franchise.. The time travel was a thoughtless plot device that paid no bearing to how time travel worked in the previous stories.. The alternate reality thing seemed like just an afterthought.. They mentioned it briefly, as a possibility, in the film with no logic to bring them to that conclusion..
Following what we see in the movie, considering how time travel and alternate realities are typically portrayed in Star Trek, the prime universe would have been erased..
Yeaaah just took this an excuse to vent! thanks.. >.>;
The Romulans being changed into bald, tattooed biker thugs flying around a big black ship that looks like something the Vorlons from Babylon 5 should be squaring off against was probably the most obvious change, but there are others:
the narada is a mining ship, not a war ship. the romulans on the ship were miners. they shaved their heads and gave themselves the tatoos out of rage at the destruction of romulus.
1) Qonos being right next to Earth.
in canon qo'nos is 4 days from earth at warp 4.5.
2) Primeverse has transwarp beaming technology
not exactly. scotty had it, just like spock had the caluclations for time warp. these things weren't common knowledge.
3) Klingons are also weird looking now (but not as divergent as the new Romulans were)
the only real change was all the piercings. it's common for warrior cultures to have piercing and cutting, as well as tatoos, to signify their courage. it's just not something people thought about in tos or even tng, but it makes sense.
4) We have the Jellyfish design to look forward to as an example of Federation Engineering (why do they need this if they can teleport between solar systems with a device smaller than a photon torp?)
as i said above, i don't think it was common knowledge. it's something scotty invented that spock knew about, but it might never have been relayed to starfleet.
5) Romulans are idiots. Even bigger than Nemesis turned them into.
as i said above, the romulans on the narada were not military or warriors. they were miners. they were angry at the loss of their homeworld and planet and wanted revenge on spock for letting romulus die. they didn't plan on getting thrown into the past any more then spock did.
It IS possible that the Klingons we saw were suffering from the genetics virus . Perhaps the tampering split them into two groups: the more Human-looking smoothheads ones and the darker, more viscous-looking ones from JJ. Klingons version of a Reman?
... the Star Wars prequels were soooo horrible.. It's actually a giant relief to have Abrams on them.. He's shown himself to make good movies... I felt Star Trek 2009 was a good movie.. it was just kind of was a disservice to the franchise...
This fits into the point I was making earlier about whether, and how well, an offering 'fits into' the specifics of a franchise or genre.
Star Wars 1 in particular I enjoyed, but thought it would have worked better as a Star Trek movie (trade federation planetary barricade, diplomats sent to investigate mysteriously assassinated, attempt to take a planet in a daring conspiracy that is eventually uncovered, exposed, and defeated?)
Star Trek 2009 was fine as a movie, and wouldn't have been an issue if it were "Commander Galaxy in Space!" but instead they used words from Star Trek. There was nothing particularly Trek about its underlying premise and indeed has some obvious Star Wars philosophy (the most obvious being the sense of individuals' destiny to become X, rather than it being based on merit... JJ's Kirk is more a bratty Luke Skywalker than TOS Shatner).
But then, I realized one day that the whole "Canon vs non-Canon" is irrelevant: just because some faceless studio executive somewhere decides to make some rule, doesn't mean as a fan I have to take the slightest bit of notice. So if I consider the Odyssey Class to be more Trekky than the 2009 Enterprise which is to ungraceful in its clunky finishing, then that's my business. We can discuss it, but "Some exec somewhere pronounced!" isn't going to cut it as an argument.
Now, in terms of JJ Trek, I didn't personally like it. I won't be seeing the next one either, and I hope that maybe one day we might be lucky enough to see a new TV series that will be enjoyable for me. Others like JJ's Trek? Great for them. The only reason it's even being discussed is that JJ played a very nasty little political game, with his "Oh the old fans won't like it... and that's just them complaining and hating on me!", which is the same stupid game Justin Bieber played with is "Be a Bielieber and people who don't like my music are haters to be defended against!" It's a cheap shot to deflect real criticism. The movie stands or falters on its own, regardless of JJ's lame attempt to poison the well.
Simple as this; JJ Trek is an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE Trek. If the Prime future was erased, then Prime Spock would cease to exist. And if he ceased to exist, then he could not have gone back in time with Nero in the 2400's, could he?
JJ's version of "Star Trek" is based upon the Sting Theory. Prime and alternate Trek are separated by a one degree sliver. Even though both universes may look the same, the alternate universe was different from the very beginning.
Here is the conundrum... As the Prime version of Spock entered the alternate universe, the future alternative version of Spock saved the prime universe's Romulus. Its a paradox.
I found JJ's first Trek to be fun - an interesting aberration in an alternate universe. The second wasn't Trek as much as it was Die Hard in space. Khan was an afterthought, which was disappointing. The 'mirror universe' redo of the scene in engineering was a let-down.
Not to mention the massive plot holes....
But in the end, it was 'kinda fun' for a brainless story.
I really only had two (read: 2) complaints/issues with Into Darkness.
The first, sadly, came in the first 10 minutes. Since when is a Constitution Class Cruiser transatmospheric? I realize that this was purely an issue of foreshadowing (a trick in writing to give us a glimpse of something seemingly benign now that will be important later) as the Enterprise had to correct itself whist plummeting through Earths orbit although to be honest, a ship that size falling at top speed in a flat spin should have been torn to shreds by our atmosphere but Ill ignore that blaring fact for now.
In truth, my first red flag for this issue came in the first movie when we see a Constitution Class in Iowa being built. These ships were never intended to be TA. They were built in spacedock and although they could survive the upper atmosphere if needed in an emergency they were NEVER to come and go as they please ala Voyager. They have manoeuvring thrusters, which is what the writers used to correct the Enterprises fall, but those thrusters are nowhere near strong enough to provide vertical and horizontal lift within the gravitational pull of a planet!
However, I have convinced myself that with the assistance of Spock Prime and whatever technology they MAY have recovered from Neros ship we may see certain technological advancements that did not exist this early in the Prime Timeline. Its bitter tho like swallowing a handful of aspirin
Secondly, and we all saw this coming, they kicked Spock in the ol jewels on this one. I DID like the juxtaposition Wrath of Kahn and Into Darkness flipping who sacrificed themselves in the end. I saw the whole super blood thing coming a mile away so that didnt really bother me what bothered me was Spock shouting KAAAAHN!
Really? A half Vulcan having a complete emotional breakdown over this jerk Captains death? He shows absolutely NO emotion over the annihilation of his home world until Kirk started saying Your mama is SO dead The writers really effed this up. Id love to slap the stupid out of them. I know someone who works on the Paramount lot I wonder
How should Spock have responded? He should have shown little visible emotion until moment he turned and stormed off to the transporter bay and we know SOMEBODY gonna get a hurt real bad .
Spock is the posterchild for bottled up emotions. He suppresses everything and when he does manage to let go, its not an explosion or a wave its a TSUNAMI of rage that will destroy anything in its path. THIS is how this scene should have played out. If they still wanted the KAHN moment, continue with the juxtaposition and have Spock utter, barely a whisper, Kahn.
So yes, other than those two issues I dont mind the JJ verse all that much. In fact, I quite enjoy them.
3) They were all pointless and unnecessary 'reinventions' of thigns that were fine before. The Romulans were quite clearly different. The lack of forehead ridges should be a giveaway, for one.
I don't understand why this is a knock at the JJ-films. This isn't the first time we've seen Romulans without ridges, since they didn't have them in TOS. You could argue that TNG retconned the Romulans and they are supposed to have them now, but even after the Romulans were given ridges in TNG, we still saw Romulans without ridges. Look at Ambassador Nanclus who clearly lacks ridges and he appeared in a movie which came out three years after the ridged Romulans appeared on TNG.
It could have been a mistake, in which case the JJ film was not the first film to make this mistake and shouldn't be singled out and chastised for it, or there are more to the Romulans than we thought. There is an explanation for the Klingon's change in appearance so someday they could explain the Romulans as well. Or we can just cry about it. Which ever you prefer.
Making them miners was just a lazy excuse to reinvent Romulans as generic bald, trenchcoat wearing badguys.
They were bald because they voluntarily shaved their heads. It's not like ALL Romulans are now suddenly bald, like Deltans. You see Nero's wife has long hair. It's also not lazy showing us a different kind of Romulan in terms of occupation and personality. What would be lazy is giving us the same Romulans we've seen a million times before.
b) If one could be so easily jury-rigged as it was in trek 2009 in such short a timeframe, there really isn't much of an excuse for them not being in widespread use in Primeverse.
Have any of you ever watched the show? Transporters are not known for their reliability. Some people can't even trust them to get you from the surface of a planet to a ship in orbit. Do you honestly believe it could be trusted to beam you light-years across space on a regular basis? I'm sure Transwarp beaming could be used in specific applications but I highly doubt its capable of replacing the much more reliable Starship.
They didn't act or look anything like any Romulan from any of the series. For that matter, neither did their ship.
They're not soldiers or spies, they're just blue collar miners. I don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend. As for the Nerada, she didn't look like that originally. Her look in Star Trek is a result of being jury rigged with Borg technology. She's essentially an assimilated mining ship, albeit not constructed with the logical precision of the Borg Collective.
I really only had two (read: 2) complaints/issues with Into Darkness.
The first, sadly, came in the first 10 minutes. Since when is a Constitution Class Cruiser transatmospheric? I realize that this was purely an issue of foreshadowing (a trick in writing to give us a glimpse of something seemingly benign now that will be important later) as the Enterprise had to correct itself whist plummeting through Earths orbit although to be honest, a ship that size falling at top speed in a flat spin should have been torn to shreds by our atmosphere but Ill ignore that blaring fact for now.
In truth, my first red flag for this issue came in the first movie when we see a Constitution Class in Iowa being built. These ships were never intended to be TA. They were built in spacedock and although they could survive the upper atmosphere if needed in an emergency they were NEVER to come and go as they please ala Voyager. They have manoeuvring thrusters, which is what the writers used to correct the Enterprises fall, but those thrusters are nowhere near strong enough to provide vertical and horizontal lift within the gravitational pull of a planet!
However, I have convinced myself that with the assistance of Spock Prime and whatever technology they MAY have recovered from Neros ship we may see certain technological advancements that did not exist this early in the Prime Timeline. Its bitter tho like swallowing a handful of aspirin
Secondly, and we all saw this coming, they kicked Spock in the ol jewels on this one. I DID like the juxtaposition Wrath of Kahn and Into Darkness flipping who sacrificed themselves in the end. I saw the whole super blood thing coming a mile away so that didnt really bother me what bothered me was Spock shouting KAAAAHN!
Really? A half Vulcan having a complete emotional breakdown over this jerk Captains death? He shows absolutely NO emotion over the annihilation of his home world until Kirk started saying Your mama is SO dead The writers really effed this up. Id love to slap the stupid out of them. I know someone who works on the Paramount lot I wonder
How should Spock have responded? He should have shown little visible emotion until moment he turned and stormed off to the transporter bay and we know SOMEBODY gonna get a hurt real bad .
Spock is the posterchild for bottled up emotions. He suppresses everything and when he does manage to let go, its not an explosion or a wave its a TSUNAMI of rage that will destroy anything in its path. THIS is how this scene should have played out. If they still wanted the KAHN moment, continue with the juxtaposition and have Spock utter, barely a whisper, Kahn.
So yes, other than those two issues I dont mind the JJ verse all that much. In fact, I quite enjoy them.
Actually in TOS: Season 1, episode 19 "Tomorrow is Yesterday"...the Enterprise enters Earth's atmosphere. It's picked up on radar and a fighter pilot intercepts and sees it.
The Enterprise plummeted in an atmosphere before and had enough power to pul away in The Naked Time.
I can't remember where I read it but I was under the impression that the prime universe ships were built on Earth and assembled in space dock.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Actually in TOS: Season 1, episode 19 "Tomorrow is Yesterday"...the Enterprise enters Earth's atmosphere. It's picked up on radar and a fighter pilot intercepts and sees it.
The Enterprise plummeted in an atmosphere before and had enough power to pul away in The Naked Time.
I can't remember where I read it but I was under the impression that the prime universe ships were built on Earth and assembled in space dock.
I was just looking up Tomorrow is Yesterday for this very example. I don't know about ships being constructed on Earth, but a Galaxy Class was seen being constructed on the surface of Mars and she's a lot bigger than a Constitution Class. Of course Mars is smaller and has way less Gravity as well.
... Really? A half Vulcan having a complete emotional breakdown over this jerk Captains death? He shows absolutely NO emotion over the annihilation of his home world until Kirk started saying Your mama is SO dead ...How should Spock have responded? He should have shown little visible emotion until moment he turned and stormed off to the transporter bay and we know SOMEBODY gonna get a hurt real bad .
I read your post and could see the whole story in my head. Kirk dies, Spock is silent for an uncomfortable time, and just says, unemotionally "Khan." He is seen walking through corridors, eventually slowly moving into the brig. He says to the guard "Dismissed". He lowers the forcefield, grips Khan, "My mind... to your mind..." Next shot is Spock walking out of the brig, Khan's lifeless body slumped on the back wall. Bit dark, but could have been powerful.
I was just looking up Tomorrow is Yesterday for this very example. I don't know about ships being constructed on Earth, but a Galaxy Class was seen being constructed on the surface of Mars and she's a lot bigger than a Constitution Class. Of course Mars is smaller and has way less Gravity as well.
I've been researching Connies for a fan fix I am writing and I saw it somewhere. The more I was researching and rewatching TOS episodes the more I was seeing most people's complaints didn't hold up.
The biggest thing people should remember is that this is an alternate reality. We shouldn't expect JJ's Spock to act just like Prime Spock anymore than we expect Mirror Spock to.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
/snip
Secondly, and we all saw this coming, they kicked Spock in the ol jewels on this one. I DID like the juxtaposition Wrath of Kahn and Into Darkness flipping who sacrificed themselves in the end. I saw the whole super blood thing coming a mile away so that didnt really bother me what bothered me was Spock shouting KAAAAHN!
Really? A half Vulcan having a complete emotional breakdown over this jerk Captains death? He shows absolutely NO emotion over the annihilation of his home world until Kirk started saying Your mama is SO dead The writers really effed this up. Id love to slap the stupid out of them. I know someone who works on the Paramount lot I wonder
How should Spock have responded? He should have shown little visible emotion until moment he turned and stormed off to the transporter bay and we know SOMEBODY gonna get a hurt real bad .
Spock is the posterchild for bottled up emotions. He suppresses everything and when he does manage to let go, its not an explosion or a wave its a TSUNAMI of rage that will destroy anything in its path. THIS is how this scene should have played out. If they still wanted the KAHN moment, continue with the juxtaposition and have Spock utter, barely a whisper, Kahn.
So yes, other than those two issues I dont mind the JJ verse all that much. In fact, I quite enjoy them.
Did you EVER watch ToS? How bout when spock thought he killed Kirk in "Amok Time" then he saw Kirk alive and you see him have a short outburst before bottling it back up?
Spock was ALWAYS the poster child for bottled up emotions. Just shows how little you know about Spock.
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Secondly, and we all saw this coming, they kicked Spock in the ol jewels on this one. I DID like the juxtaposition Wrath of Kahn and Into Darkness flipping who sacrificed themselves in the end. I saw the whole super blood thing coming a mile away so that didnt really bother me what bothered me was Spock shouting KAAAAHN!
Really? A half Vulcan having a complete emotional breakdown over this jerk Captains death? He shows absolutely NO emotion over the annihilation of his home world until Kirk started saying Your mama is SO dead The writers really effed this up. Id love to slap the stupid out of them. I know someone who works on the Paramount lot I wonder
It's actually not too unusual for Spock to exhibit emotion, especially concerning the life of his captain. From "Amok Time."
Technically, though, I think rather than stealing Shatner's line, the ending of Into Darkness should have echoed the above clip. It seemed to be closer to the existing circumstances.
Okay okay so there are examples of a CCC entering a planets atmosphere to be honest I forgot about those episodes yet I STILL argue that a ship of that size should not, within the realms of physics, be transatmospheric.
As for Spocks emotions I never said he was incapable of showing an outburst. Remember that by the time the events took place in Amok Time Spock and Kirk had been friends and close companions. In fact, Kirk was probably the first person he had let his guard down and expressed true emotion. In Into Darkness we see pretty quickly when Admiral Pike admonishes Kirk and strips him of his rank that Spock is nowhere near as close to Kirk emotionally, as it was Spock filing a report behind Kirks back that led to his demotion in the first place.
I read your post and could see the whole story in my head. Kirk dies, Spock is silent for an uncomfortable time, and just says, unemotionally "Khan." He is seen walking through corridors, eventually slowly moving into the brig. He says to the guard "Dismissed". He lowers the forcefield, grips Khan, "My mind... to your mind..." Next shot is Spock walking out of the brig, Khan's lifeless body slumped on the back wall. Bit dark, but could have been powerful.
In Into Darkness we see pretty quickly when Admiral Pike admonishes Kirk and strips him of his rank that Spock is nowhere near as close to Kirk emotionally, as it was Spock filing a report behind Kirks back that led to his demotion in the first place.
I don't know, that just seems like Spock's standard commitment to duty and regulation. He honestly seemed rather flummoxed by Kirk's reaction to the "betrayal."
Moved to ten forward as it does not actually have any relevance to Star Trek Online, but more on how people perceive the JJ universe.
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I guess I'm not a people. Because I liked '09 Trek. It felt more like the Trek I grew up with - that is to say, TOS. And analyzed just as movies, it was a hell of a lot better than Insurrection or Nemesucks.
STID had a lot of issues, mostly to do with Orci and Kurtzman's determination to rewrite so much to TWoK instead of doing their own movie. (And, of course, that whole stupid fracking "cold fusion" thing...) The ending was a lot better than a lot of folks give it credit for, though. The "magic blood" was thrown away, as so many inventions in Trek history have been (Warp 14, anyone?), and it was made, I thought, quite plain that the magic transporter was destroyed in the crash of "Harrison"'s skycar - and that Section 31 had only built the one, and that their records were probably purged before Starfleet Intelligence could tear them apart.
Actually, old Spock would still exist. Time paradoxes are fun!
Old Spock only still exists because he was protected from the changes in the timeline in much the same was as the Enterprise crew were in First Contact, that's my theory anyway.
I don't see the JJ Trek as TRIBBLE, it's a breath of fresh air for a series that had nowhere else to go
In Into Darkness we see pretty quickly when Admiral Pike admonishes Kirk and strips him of his rank that Spock is nowhere near as close to Kirk emotionally, as it was Spock filing a report behind Kirks back that led to his demotion in the first place.
part of that peeved me in both movies.....They treated rank as if it was nothing. In TOS Kirk spent years training onboard different vessels.
1st movie Pike to Kirk/Spock "I am not the Captain now you are [that scene] "..... umm no he's a fracking Cadet. Yes you could give him a field commission but the highest rank Pike can give Kirk would be Commander. And you don't just give some cadet the command that's what Admirals are for....jesh you just let Kirk have the CON while your on an away mission.
I don't understand why this is a knock at the JJ-films. This isn't the first time we've seen Romulans without ridges, since they didn't have them in TOS. You could argue that TNG retconned the Romulans and they are supposed to have them now, but even after the Romulans were given ridges in TNG, we still saw Romulans without ridges. Look at Ambassador Nanclus who clearly lacks ridges and he appeared in a movie which came out three years after the ridged Romulans appeared on TNG.
It was stupid and unnecessary backpeddling in ST VI too. But we know Romulan hybrids lack the ridges though, so it's fairly easy to think of him as a hybrid. The entire crew of the Narada though? highly implausible.
By the Time ST 2009 rolled out though , we had four Star Trek series with universally ridged depictions of Romulans. That's a heck of a lot to miss.
It could have been a mistake, in which case the JJ film was not the first film to make this mistake and shouldn't be singled out and chastised for it, or there are more to the Romulans than we thought. There is an explanation for the Klingon's change in appearance so someday they could explain the Romulans as well. Or we can just cry about it. Which ever you prefer.
There are in development shots floating around of versions of Romulans they ended up not going with that had the ridges, so they were aware of them. They were taken to such an extreme that they were so warped as to resemble jem'hadar more than Romulans though. Seems that they wanted some sort of generic space monster badguy race before deciding to be more 'subtle'. It would explain why the Romulans in that movie act and dress like the braindead spawn of a Klingon and a reman.
Believe it or not, the tattoos are supposed to be a replacement for the ridges. They were aware, they just didn't care.
It could have been a mistake, in which case the JJ film was not They were bald because they voluntarily shaved their heads. It's not like ALL Romulans are now suddenly bald, like Deltans. You see Nero's wife has long hair. It's also not lazy showing us a different kind of Romulan in terms of occupation and personality. What would be lazy is giving us the same Romulans we've seen a million times before.
Right, long hair that likewise didn't appear in the entire TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT run (she also has tattoos). Romulans had a pretty well established look by the time Trek 2009 rolled around. Even that abortion of a film, Nemesis managed to get that right. Whether they shaved voluntarily or involuntarily is irrelevant, it was a stupid design made to make the Romulans into the lowest common denominator of bad guys.
Have any of you ever watched the show? Transporters are not known for their reliability. Some people can't even trust them to get you from the surface of a planet to a ship in orbit. Do you honestly believe it could be trusted to beam you light-years across space on a regular basis? I'm sure Transwarp beaming could be used in specific applications but I highly doubt its capable of replacing the much more reliable Starship.
The only times they used the transporters in the NUTrek movies, they worked flawlessly. Khan didn't materialize in a concrete wall or anything. I think it's fair to say they are pretty darn well accurate.
Didn't have any problem using it on a moving starship (presumably with raised shields), either.
They're not soldiers or spies, they're just blue collar miners. I don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend. As for the Nerada, she didn't look like that originally. Her look in Star Trek is a result of being jury rigged with Borg technology. She's essentially an assimilated mining ship, albeit not constructed with the logical precision of the Borg Collective.
Again, just a lip service excuse for redesigning Romulans however they wanted. Before they settled on the bald tattooed thugs, they had crested freaks with mohawks and weird facial ridges. They worked backwards for the explanation, same with the ship. Likewise Is there anywhere In the movie where they explain that it's a borg ship(not that it even remotely resembles a borg ship either)? Nope.
They wanted freaky Remans Mk II, but then changed their mind halfway through and made tattooed skinhead bikers instead. They wanted a generic menacing ship, so they threw a couple of Babylon 5 shadow warships together, painted them metallic, and called it a day. They were just a familiar name slapped onto some generic badguys. And it shows- there's nowhere else in any of the shows or movies where these freaks could have fitted in with the Romulans we know.
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2) Old Spock and scotty whipped one together pretty easily. Genesis device was a dead end failure anyways.
3) They were all pointless and unnecessary 'reinventions' of thigns that were fine before. The Romulans were quite clearly different. The lack of forehead ridges should be a giveaway, for one. Making them miners was just a lazy excuse to reinvent Romulans as generic bald, trenchcoat wearing badguys. Long hair+ Gowns weren't exactly something we saw Romulans wear TNG onwards either. So the accusation that they retconned the Romulans has a lot of merit I think.
4) a) Vulcans are part of the Federation. It's a Federation design. b) If one could be so easily jury-rigged as it was in trek 2009 in such short a timeframe, there really isn't much of an excuse for them not being in widespread use in Primeverse.
5) A Thin excuse. They wanted some generic, evil looking aliens and 'Romulan' was just the name they drew from a hat. They didn't act or look anything like any Romulan from any of the series. For that matter, neither did their ship. The only similarity with their species was the name and the pointy ears. Heck, they almost didn't even catch the fact that Romulans have green blood.
well
1) JJ has stated he was a bigger SW fan instead of a ST fan so I expect better things in SW VII.
2) for SW JJ is adding to the Lore (set after VI) whereas in ST he "f'd" with the lore by means of alternate universes
3) I loved the new Enterprise......up until we go to Engineering.....for a vessel launched in 2245 why does engineering and the warp core look like something off of an aircraft carrier.... its NCC-1701 not CVN-80 for god sake.
It doesn't 'replace' Trek, and it isn't as good to me as the Trek versions I love, but it's still good fun nonetheless.
Folks who freak out over JJ-Trek just really need to lighten up.
As to how quickly Prime Spock and Scotty made a Transwarp Beaming system... Scotty was the guy who originally came up with the theory, and Spock just provided his complete formula from the future. From there, it was apparently easy to beam aboard the Enterprise from a ready Transporter Pad after inputting the formula into the computer and letting it calculate. The rest could be explained as the ever popular... Plot Hole.
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For another.. the Star Wars prequels were soooo horrible.. It's actually a giant relief to have Abrams on them.. He's shown himself to make good movies..
I felt Star Trek 2009 was a good movie.. it was just kind of was a disservice to the franchise.. The time travel was a thoughtless plot device that paid no bearing to how time travel worked in the previous stories.. The alternate reality thing seemed like just an afterthought.. They mentioned it briefly, as a possibility, in the film with no logic to bring them to that conclusion..
Following what we see in the movie, considering how time travel and alternate realities are typically portrayed in Star Trek, the prime universe would have been erased..
Yeaaah just took this an excuse to vent! thanks.. >.>;
in canon qo'nos is 4 days from earth at warp 4.5.
not exactly. scotty had it, just like spock had the caluclations for time warp. these things weren't common knowledge.
the only real change was all the piercings. it's common for warrior cultures to have piercing and cutting, as well as tatoos, to signify their courage. it's just not something people thought about in tos or even tng, but it makes sense.
as i said above, i don't think it was common knowledge. it's something scotty invented that spock knew about, but it might never have been relayed to starfleet.
as i said above, the romulans on the narada were not military or warriors. they were miners. they were angry at the loss of their homeworld and planet and wanted revenge on spock for letting romulus die. they didn't plan on getting thrown into the past any more then spock did.
This fits into the point I was making earlier about whether, and how well, an offering 'fits into' the specifics of a franchise or genre.
Star Wars 1 in particular I enjoyed, but thought it would have worked better as a Star Trek movie (trade federation planetary barricade, diplomats sent to investigate mysteriously assassinated, attempt to take a planet in a daring conspiracy that is eventually uncovered, exposed, and defeated?)
Star Trek 2009 was fine as a movie, and wouldn't have been an issue if it were "Commander Galaxy in Space!" but instead they used words from Star Trek. There was nothing particularly Trek about its underlying premise and indeed has some obvious Star Wars philosophy (the most obvious being the sense of individuals' destiny to become X, rather than it being based on merit... JJ's Kirk is more a bratty Luke Skywalker than TOS Shatner).
But then, I realized one day that the whole "Canon vs non-Canon" is irrelevant: just because some faceless studio executive somewhere decides to make some rule, doesn't mean as a fan I have to take the slightest bit of notice. So if I consider the Odyssey Class to be more Trekky than the 2009 Enterprise which is to ungraceful in its clunky finishing, then that's my business. We can discuss it, but "Some exec somewhere pronounced!" isn't going to cut it as an argument.
Now, in terms of JJ Trek, I didn't personally like it. I won't be seeing the next one either, and I hope that maybe one day we might be lucky enough to see a new TV series that will be enjoyable for me. Others like JJ's Trek? Great for them. The only reason it's even being discussed is that JJ played a very nasty little political game, with his "Oh the old fans won't like it... and that's just them complaining and hating on me!", which is the same stupid game Justin Bieber played with is "Be a Bielieber and people who don't like my music are haters to be defended against!" It's a cheap shot to deflect real criticism. The movie stands or falters on its own, regardless of JJ's lame attempt to poison the well.
Here is the conundrum... As the Prime version of Spock entered the alternate universe, the future alternative version of Spock saved the prime universe's Romulus. Its a paradox.
Not to mention the massive plot holes....
But in the end, it was 'kinda fun' for a brainless story.
The first, sadly, came in the first 10 minutes. Since when is a Constitution Class Cruiser transatmospheric? I realize that this was purely an issue of foreshadowing (a trick in writing to give us a glimpse of something seemingly benign now that will be important later) as the Enterprise had to correct itself whist plummeting through Earths orbit although to be honest, a ship that size falling at top speed in a flat spin should have been torn to shreds by our atmosphere but Ill ignore that blaring fact for now.
In truth, my first red flag for this issue came in the first movie when we see a Constitution Class in Iowa being built. These ships were never intended to be TA. They were built in spacedock and although they could survive the upper atmosphere if needed in an emergency they were NEVER to come and go as they please ala Voyager. They have manoeuvring thrusters, which is what the writers used to correct the Enterprises fall, but those thrusters are nowhere near strong enough to provide vertical and horizontal lift within the gravitational pull of a planet!
However, I have convinced myself that with the assistance of Spock Prime and whatever technology they MAY have recovered from Neros ship we may see certain technological advancements that did not exist this early in the Prime Timeline. Its bitter tho like swallowing a handful of aspirin
Secondly, and we all saw this coming, they kicked Spock in the ol jewels on this one. I DID like the juxtaposition Wrath of Kahn and Into Darkness flipping who sacrificed themselves in the end. I saw the whole super blood thing coming a mile away so that didnt really bother me what bothered me was Spock shouting KAAAAHN!
Really? A half Vulcan having a complete emotional breakdown over this jerk Captains death? He shows absolutely NO emotion over the annihilation of his home world until Kirk started saying Your mama is SO dead The writers really effed this up. Id love to slap the stupid out of them. I know someone who works on the Paramount lot I wonder
How should Spock have responded? He should have shown little visible emotion until moment he turned and stormed off to the transporter bay and we know SOMEBODY gonna get a hurt real bad .
Spock is the posterchild for bottled up emotions. He suppresses everything and when he does manage to let go, its not an explosion or a wave its a TSUNAMI of rage that will destroy anything in its path. THIS is how this scene should have played out. If they still wanted the KAHN moment, continue with the juxtaposition and have Spock utter, barely a whisper, Kahn.
So yes, other than those two issues I dont mind the JJ verse all that much. In fact, I quite enjoy them.
I don't understand why this is a knock at the JJ-films. This isn't the first time we've seen Romulans without ridges, since they didn't have them in TOS. You could argue that TNG retconned the Romulans and they are supposed to have them now, but even after the Romulans were given ridges in TNG, we still saw Romulans without ridges. Look at Ambassador Nanclus who clearly lacks ridges and he appeared in a movie which came out three years after the ridged Romulans appeared on TNG.
It could have been a mistake, in which case the JJ film was not the first film to make this mistake and shouldn't be singled out and chastised for it, or there are more to the Romulans than we thought. There is an explanation for the Klingon's change in appearance so someday they could explain the Romulans as well. Or we can just cry about it. Which ever you prefer.
They were bald because they voluntarily shaved their heads. It's not like ALL Romulans are now suddenly bald, like Deltans. You see Nero's wife has long hair. It's also not lazy showing us a different kind of Romulan in terms of occupation and personality. What would be lazy is giving us the same Romulans we've seen a million times before.
Have any of you ever watched the show? Transporters are not known for their reliability. Some people can't even trust them to get you from the surface of a planet to a ship in orbit. Do you honestly believe it could be trusted to beam you light-years across space on a regular basis? I'm sure Transwarp beaming could be used in specific applications but I highly doubt its capable of replacing the much more reliable Starship.
They're not soldiers or spies, they're just blue collar miners. I don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend. As for the Nerada, she didn't look like that originally. Her look in Star Trek is a result of being jury rigged with Borg technology. She's essentially an assimilated mining ship, albeit not constructed with the logical precision of the Borg Collective.
Actually in TOS: Season 1, episode 19 "Tomorrow is Yesterday"...the Enterprise enters Earth's atmosphere. It's picked up on radar and a fighter pilot intercepts and sees it.
The Enterprise plummeted in an atmosphere before and had enough power to pul away in The Naked Time.
I can't remember where I read it but I was under the impression that the prime universe ships were built on Earth and assembled in space dock.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I was just looking up Tomorrow is Yesterday for this very example. I don't know about ships being constructed on Earth, but a Galaxy Class was seen being constructed on the surface of Mars and she's a lot bigger than a Constitution Class. Of course Mars is smaller and has way less Gravity as well.
I read your post and could see the whole story in my head. Kirk dies, Spock is silent for an uncomfortable time, and just says, unemotionally "Khan." He is seen walking through corridors, eventually slowly moving into the brig. He says to the guard "Dismissed". He lowers the forcefield, grips Khan, "My mind... to your mind..." Next shot is Spock walking out of the brig, Khan's lifeless body slumped on the back wall. Bit dark, but could have been powerful.
I've been researching Connies for a fan fix I am writing and I saw it somewhere. The more I was researching and rewatching TOS episodes the more I was seeing most people's complaints didn't hold up.
The biggest thing people should remember is that this is an alternate reality. We shouldn't expect JJ's Spock to act just like Prime Spock anymore than we expect Mirror Spock to.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Did you EVER watch ToS? How bout when spock thought he killed Kirk in "Amok Time" then he saw Kirk alive and you see him have a short outburst before bottling it back up?
Spock was ALWAYS the poster child for bottled up emotions. Just shows how little you know about Spock.
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"Tomorrow Is Yesterday"
It's actually not too unusual for Spock to exhibit emotion, especially concerning the life of his captain. From "Amok Time."
Technically, though, I think rather than stealing Shatner's line, the ending of Into Darkness should have echoed the above clip. It seemed to be closer to the existing circumstances.
As for Spocks emotions I never said he was incapable of showing an outburst. Remember that by the time the events took place in Amok Time Spock and Kirk had been friends and close companions. In fact, Kirk was probably the first person he had let his guard down and expressed true emotion. In Into Darkness we see pretty quickly when Admiral Pike admonishes Kirk and strips him of his rank that Spock is nowhere near as close to Kirk emotionally, as it was Spock filing a report behind Kirks back that led to his demotion in the first place.
I love where your mind went.
I don't know, that just seems like Spock's standard commitment to duty and regulation. He honestly seemed rather flummoxed by Kirk's reaction to the "betrayal."
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Quite an illogical statement, valoreah, as olfactory experience is presently far beyond the capabilities of modern cinematic entertainment. [/Vulcan]
STID had a lot of issues, mostly to do with Orci and Kurtzman's determination to rewrite so much to TWoK instead of doing their own movie. (And, of course, that whole stupid fracking "cold fusion" thing...) The ending was a lot better than a lot of folks give it credit for, though. The "magic blood" was thrown away, as so many inventions in Trek history have been (Warp 14, anyone?), and it was made, I thought, quite plain that the magic transporter was destroyed in the crash of "Harrison"'s skycar - and that Section 31 had only built the one, and that their records were probably purged before Starfleet Intelligence could tear them apart.
there it is and i got nothing to state since someone else did in this quote.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Old Spock only still exists because he was protected from the changes in the timeline in much the same was as the Enterprise crew were in First Contact, that's my theory anyway.
I don't see the JJ Trek as TRIBBLE, it's a breath of fresh air for a series that had nowhere else to go
part of that peeved me in both movies.....They treated rank as if it was nothing. In TOS Kirk spent years training onboard different vessels.
1st movie Pike to Kirk/Spock "I am not the Captain now you are [that scene] "..... umm no he's a fracking Cadet. Yes you could give him a field commission but the highest rank Pike can give Kirk would be Commander. And you don't just give some cadet the command that's what Admirals are for....jesh you just let Kirk have the CON while your on an away mission.
It was stupid and unnecessary backpeddling in ST VI too. But we know Romulan hybrids lack the ridges though, so it's fairly easy to think of him as a hybrid. The entire crew of the Narada though? highly implausible.
By the Time ST 2009 rolled out though , we had four Star Trek series with universally ridged depictions of Romulans. That's a heck of a lot to miss.
There are in development shots floating around of versions of Romulans they ended up not going with that had the ridges, so they were aware of them. They were taken to such an extreme that they were so warped as to resemble jem'hadar more than Romulans though. Seems that they wanted some sort of generic space monster badguy race before deciding to be more 'subtle'. It would explain why the Romulans in that movie act and dress like the braindead spawn of a Klingon and a reman.
Believe it or not, the tattoos are supposed to be a replacement for the ridges. They were aware, they just didn't care.
Right, long hair that likewise didn't appear in the entire TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT run (she also has tattoos). Romulans had a pretty well established look by the time Trek 2009 rolled around. Even that abortion of a film, Nemesis managed to get that right. Whether they shaved voluntarily or involuntarily is irrelevant, it was a stupid design made to make the Romulans into the lowest common denominator of bad guys.
The only times they used the transporters in the NUTrek movies, they worked flawlessly. Khan didn't materialize in a concrete wall or anything. I think it's fair to say they are pretty darn well accurate.
Didn't have any problem using it on a moving starship (presumably with raised shields), either.
Again, just a lip service excuse for redesigning Romulans however they wanted. Before they settled on the bald tattooed thugs, they had crested freaks with mohawks and weird facial ridges. They worked backwards for the explanation, same with the ship. Likewise Is there anywhere In the movie where they explain that it's a borg ship(not that it even remotely resembles a borg ship either)? Nope.
They wanted freaky Remans Mk II, but then changed their mind halfway through and made tattooed skinhead bikers instead. They wanted a generic menacing ship, so they threw a couple of Babylon 5 shadow warships together, painted them metallic, and called it a day. They were just a familiar name slapped onto some generic badguys. And it shows- there's nowhere else in any of the shows or movies where these freaks could have fitted in with the Romulans we know.
ST:2009 clearly, in-movie, makes it clear that JJ-Verse is an alternate universe...