1. Why is it the fault of people not wanting to carry people (or worse, fail because of them) in harder content?
It's not an issue of "fault" , it's an issue of setting up artificial standards where none existed before .
Back in the day , before the queues , when we all shouted around in Gamma Orianis in Zone Chat -- nobody looked for players with X DPS .
That was unheard of .
The only thing ppl looked for sometimes was a Sci player to help finish Cure ground .
That was a community that was not artificially segregated .
Then came the use of channels , some more well known , some less -- but all had the idea that was based on looking for ppl who could at least play an STF from A-Z .
Most channels were open to "carry" a newbie , to show him the ropes .
But then things changed with the rise of the DPS channels .
Suddenly you had to shoot X high to get invited .
Knowing how to finish an STF was no longer of value .
Choosing to switch and come with a low DPS ship was frowned upon (mildly or not so mildly depending on the channel) -- because behind the BS of "we will teach you" was the speed of which they were able to do the grind .
See , if you slowed down the team , you slowed down the grind , and that was bad .
So we went from "everyone is invited as long as they knew how to play" , to "jump ye high , do it , you will be parsed" .
That , along with the "cherry picking" of the regular STF channels created a situation where to put it simply , you had a bunch of guys (some of them were really good guys btw) who by their actions (which always speak louder then words) said to the folks who could carry an ESTF (pre-DR) :
"we do not want to play with you" .
And THAT , I find highly offensive ... and no amount of "we will teach you and here , use this Lockbox ship / Scimitar template to get better" will be enough for me .
You & yours , Mr. DPS Wizard / League / Whatever , do NOT want to play with the "average" STO player , until he / she meets your artificial DPS based standard .
And that is the definition of elitism .
But I also understand that for some folks faster = better .
That is all fine and dandy .
But that alone does not justify your existence , it does not justify not wanting to play with others who can finish an STF, but not as fast as you can , and it most certainly does not justify your claim of "if you only would do X you would be "better"" -- because that "better" is just an arbitrary line (chosen by you) , just the same as the DPS's channels are an arbitrary barrier between yourselves and the regular STF channels -- meaning that it's a barrier between ppl who can finish an STF and other players who can finish an STF . (well prior to DR at least )
So by the end count -- since I play on the regular STF's channels (as well as used to pug the public queues out of boredom) , I have actually helped a lot more players in this game then those who are willing to share their time & wisdom with those who will jump as high as the DPS channel owners require them to .
(even if I had to drag a lot of them through the missions , or had to give them green sniper rifles in the olden days of the long Cure)
If the DPS channels want to disband and mix in with the rest of "us" , hey , more power to them -- as we as a playerbase would all benefit .
Parsing and then cherry picking those who hit 5-10K or more ... that will just lead to segregation , and accusations of elitism (in fact it already does) -- while at the same time leaving one group short of better players , and the other smaller DPS groups in shortage of players period (at times) .
... the author of this rant has played with "LF1M" players from the DPS channels (who were short of players) and was impressed with their abilities ... , but not impressed enough to be ready to jump as high as someone else dictated ... , despite being invited to do so ... :P
The Scimitar is too good to be true. It's 17x faster than anywhere else in the game.
And then D'Angelo spake, saying, "17 shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be 17. 18 shalt thou not count, neither count thou 16, excepting that thou then proceed to 17. Once the number 17, being the 17th number, be reached, being naughty in My sight, thou shalt be called an exploiter."
I do 24k dps on my JHDC, I had not felt the need to segregate myself and team up with like minded individuals. Now I have no choice if I want to complete a simple isa. So cryptic has sent me on my way to either not play queues I used to enjoy in a pug or seek out four other players that do a minimum of 10k dps. If anything, cryptic's changes are creating even more elitism - you can't succeed without bringing the dps because the quick fix to make their metrics work in the Borg stfs was to increase the hp, and not improve the ai. Bort said he could do it, but doesn't have the time or resources.
I do 24k dps on my JHDC, I had not felt the need to segregate myself and team up with like minded individuals. Now I have no choice if I want to complete a simple isa. So cryptic has sent me on my way to either not play queues I used to enjoy in a pug or seek out four other players that do a minimum of 10k dps. If anything, cryptic's changes are creating even more elitism - you can't succeed without bringing the dps because the quick fix to make their metrics work in the Borg stfs was to increase the hp, and not improve the ai. Bort said he could do it, but doesn't have the time or resources.
Lol hey there... I dont fly a JHDC but are you me by any chance?
Best post I've read in here the past 2 weeks!
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
And then D'Angelo spake, saying, "17 shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be 17. 18 shalt thou not count, neither count thou 16, excepting that thou then proceed to 17. Once the number 17, being the 17th number, be reached, being naughty in My sight, thou shalt be called an exploiter."
:P
SOOOOO much Win with this statement!!!!!!!! Bring out your dead. . . . . .
Its almost depressing how far off some people are.
We never wanted that the game in general becomes overly difficult for the majority of people, we never asked for advanced (which was supposed to be the old elite) to be a 4 times increase. We asked for a new difficulty that would actually be challenging. These videos serve the purpose of showing, that the difficulty is not being increased by sliding the HP multiplier up. We, as well, never asked for the decrease in dilithium and neural processor gains from the STFs, Cryptic decided to do that on their own, and they can have all the credit for it.
Also this is to prove the point of "leveling 17 times faster", which they call an exploit. Well, if you can find it... tell us. Because we mostly didn't even level in Tau Dewa and stil got most of our points removed. My Federation toon was 2 mins 30 secs in a Charraya patrol at level 51, does that justify taking like 20 spec points away?
On another note, these videos may be used as a guideline, along with our guide videos where we explain how and why these builds work. But they do at no point force you to play anything like this. This is a suggestion and a practical display of how things can (!) be played, but not neccessarily have to be played. Therefore no one needs to feel vilified.
We offered talking to.. basically everyone of the staff we could find. To little/no effect at all.
Even though on the podcast one guy claimed he would like talking to us, trying to get into contact has thus far not worked. There have been some informal "yea we should talk" things, but as stated, nothing real ever came of it.
So we do this to raise some more attention.
If anyone on the Staff feels like talking, i am quite sure you know where to find us.
Quote from page4, but since no one bothers reading it, I copy pasta'ed it for you.
--
The Scimitar Is a broken ship giving more dps from hidden perks ...nothing else explains its op firepower many other romulan ships are just as good but fall short in dps...I propose its a sell gimmick by cryptic.
<- i hope thats a troll or a good display of the delusion.
I'll leave it at that, as all the other points are just as obvious trolls.
Personally, I have always been against the numbers behind the DPS-Channels names. But.. its the easiest way to tell apart to which part of the community you currently belong.
The seggragation could also be called:
DPS- Casual (Called DPS-Public)
DPS- Half ways trying (10k)
DPS- Decent (20k)
DPS - Try-Hard (30k)
Its not a random seggregation, it actually reflects your proficiency at the game mechanics, because "gear" doesnt really play a big role in this game. We also do not exclude anyone because he is flying the wrong build. I personally did 38k the other day on a particle Generator/Torpedo build.
Every half ways good player can squeeze 10k+ out of basically every ship in the game. (Level 10 Rhode Island Sci ship for example.. So if you dont do that, you're either not applying yourself, and therefore intentionally waste everyones (including your own) time, or actually don't know whats going on.
because behind the BS of "we will teach you".. is kinda real, if you dont want our help. Thats okay, I personally dont care how good or bad you play. As long as I don't have to play with you. It's a teamgame, if you deny your responsiblity towards the team, why should I feel in any way related to you? I am not getting paid to carry anyone through this.
And behind the BS of farming dilithium, we actually try to beat the hardest challenges in the game (No-Win 2 men etc.)
(btw, did a random Queue the other day on my narcine.. Did 39k, some other guy did 21k, and then we had 3 ppl splitting up a total of 5k dps between the three of them... No communication what so ever, every attempt of mine to chat was met with utter silence. But thats just a sidenote because we are all arrogant idiots.)
That , along with the "cherry picking" of the regular STF channels created a situation where to put it simply , you had a bunch of guys (some of them were really good guys btw) who by their actions (which always speak louder then words) said to the folks who could carry an ESTF (pre-DR) :
"we do not want to play with you" .
And THAT , I find highly offensive ... and no amount of "we will teach you and here , use this Lockbox ship / Scimitar template to get better" will be enough for me .
Why do the guys on the Premier League not want to play with you by the way?
Actually, lets go a little more into detail here, because thats a point that rises every now and then.
This is a misconception. What you dont understand is, that in order to maximize dps even the good players have to make some trade-offs from survivability. So if you dont at least play halfways along these ships cant take the heat forever. We fully know and understand that. That is why we take those highly specialized builds into certain missions. We prepare and exploit teamplay, if that is too much cheating, or effort for you. I am sorry, but I dont see how I am supposed to talk about your personal preferences.
Specializing in certain things allows you to achieve far higher results though... 2 Men no win scenario is a good example... Why can we beat it with 2 players, while most cant with 5?
You & yours , Mr. DPS Wizard / League / Whatever , do NOT want to play with the "average" STO player , until he / she meets your artificial DPS based standard .
And that is the definition of elitism .
No, thats because they underperform from an objective point of view: Combatlog doesn't read out your feelings, but your contribution to the teams victory, if you win it. Sure, its not 100% accurate, there is some fake-damage. But all the effects are miniscule usually. And if that gets us killed or we have to carry him entirely through there, then yes. We are not getting paid enough to pain ourselves watching how you fail south with 3 players.
But that alone does not justify your existence , it does not justify not wanting to play with others who can finish an STF, but not as fast as you can , and it most certainly does not justify your claim of "if you only would do X you would be "better"" -- because that "better" is just an arbitrary line (chosen by you) , just the same as the DPS's channels are an arbitrary barrier between yourselves and the regular STF channels -- meaning that it's a barrier between ppl who can finish an STF and other players who can finish an STF . (well prior to DR at least )
If you do under 10k DPS in this game, you are currently not interested in dealing damage. Thats fine by me, but dont expect me to try carrying you through for free. Its not a seggregation of people I like, versus people I dont like. Its about people that apply themselves and people that dont f.ing care about gameplay, but go to the forums to explain why what they do should be valid, while there is no reflection of that in the actual gameplay.
The arbitrariness of these numbers is so low, that if you halfways think about what u'r doing, you will find it not difficult to get into 10k.
Its a line between players that will work things out, do some testing and get the mission done..
versus people that will then take those results and get the mission done;
versus people that you need to take by the hand and walk through it, but yet willing to improve;
versus people that explain to you, why you are the real problem and they dont want your solution, even if you clearly showed that it worked.
Let me actually quote a book:
,,The Scrub Mentality
"Scrub" is not a term I made up. It sounds like kind of a harsh term, but it's the one that was already in common usage in games to describe a certain type of player, and it made more sense to me to explain that rather than to coin a new term.
A scrub is not just a bad player. Everyone needs time to learn a game and get to a point where they know what they're doing. The scrub mentality is to be so shackled by self-imposed handicaps as to never have any hope of being truly good at a game. You can practice forever, but if you can't get over these common hangups, in a sense you've lost before you even started. You've lost before you even picked which game to play. You aren't playing to win.
A scrub would disagree with this though. They'd say they are trying very hard. The problem is they are only trying hard within a construct of fictitious rules that prevent them from ever truly competing.
"That's Cheap!"
Scrubs are likely to label a wide variety of moves and tactics as "cheap." For example, performing a throw in fighting games is often called cheap. A throw is a move that grabs an opponent and damages them even while they're defending against all other kinds of attacks. Throws exist specifically to allow you to damage opponents who block and don't attack.
As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it's meant to be there—yet scrubs construct their own set of principles that state they should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. Scrubs think of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect them indefinitely. Throwing violates the rules in their heads even though it doesn't violate any actual game rule.
A scrub would not throw their opponent 5 times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimize your chances of winning? It's "cheap," though, throwing is cheap. And it's not just throwing, it's also a long list of somewhat arbitrary maneuvers. If you keep a scrub away from you by zoning them with projectile attacks, you'll probably be called cheap. If you do one move over and over, that's cheap. If you get a lead, then do nothing for 30 seconds so that you can win by time-out, that's cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap.
Let's specifically consider the case where you do one move over and over. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Are they such a poor player that they can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't you be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing.
"It's Not Fun To Play That Way"
This might be true, or it might not be, depending on the game. The scrub mentality is to make this claim for basically all games though so beware of that."
We are all proud of your carrying skills, but if you want to become a better player, you need to try out new things, specialize in certain things and compare/gauge how you are doing. If you don't do that, you'll not improve, and therefore be left behind by everyone willing to improve.
We also dont cherry pick anything, we just offer assistance to players across the board: DPS-public is the entry level channel, and doesnt require you to jump over anything. But lets turn this around, how about you try to improve?
We don't force anyone to play the way we do.
(go read page 4 guys.)
If you decide that what we do is all wrong and against you playstyle thats fine, but please realize, that are not being paid to carry you through any of this, even though we do it every now and then (random Qs for fun). You have to understand, that from a 10 to 25k perspective it looks intentional if you deal 3k dps, which a freshly unboxed ship, not equipped with any consoles or bridge officers can pull, just by allocating power to weapons and shooting.
This game is an Arms-race by definition, timers on mission fail if you don't deal X amounts of DPS within the timelimit, sure it has been kinda low so far but the hp-scaling further enforced that point. You were taught over 4 years that being in the mission is enough to be rewarded, and they are breaking that mindset now. Sure its painful for everyone who was satisfied with how nice their ship looks. We just optimized on getting the job done. Can this all be done very slowly, in an inefficient way that you personally find satisfying? Probably, but why should we be forced to cater to the lowest denominator? Winning the STF is basically a foregone conclusion for us, we want to optimize within the completion of the STF. When we win ISA in 2 minutes 6 seconds, that gives another group a competitive reason to continue playing this game. To see if they can beat us on the time record.
I like to compare PvE to Golf.
On the course you fight yourself. Strive for perfection, wouldn't under par be awesome? When its done, you compare numbers.
Getting the first kill on a difficult mission is a race. Holding the speed record on a mission is a race. Holding the damage record on a mission is a race.
While on the course we enjoy good competition, when its done though, we sit down with the other competitors and drink coffe/earl grey depending on preference and reflect how we liked it.
We understand that this is highly elitist and dont force anyone to participate in it, but you have to understand that the mindset of competitive gameplay has helped us really improve on all the challenges presented, to a degree, that most people don't even understand what we are doing.
The problem with this is that Cryptic will look at this :" This is our average player. Lets balance the game for OVER NINETHOUSSAAAAAND! kdps players!"
That will leave 99% of the players ***ed up. They think this is what the average player is. I know its not the player's fault, but Cryptics, but still.
Also, Scimitars, Faw everywhere.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
It's not an issue of "fault" , it's an issue of setting up artificial standards where none existed before .
Back in the day , before the queues , when we all shouted around in Gamma Orianis in Zone Chat -- nobody looked for players with X DPS .
That was unheard of .
The only thing ppl looked for sometimes was a Sci player to help finish Cure ground .
That was a community that was not artificially segregated .
Then came the use of channels , some more well known , some less -- but all had the idea that was based on looking for ppl who could at least play an STF from A-Z .
Most channels were open to "carry" a newbie , to show him the ropes .
If by "artificial standards," you mean "able to competently perform at x level," you're correct.
How is a high DPS channel any different than a Roleplaying channel? Two different ways of enjoying the game, IMO.
But then things changed with the rise of the DPS channels .
Suddenly you had to shoot X high to get invited .
Knowing how to finish an STF was no longer of value .
Choosing to switch and come with a low DPS ship was frowned upon (mildly or not so mildly depending on the channel) -- because behind the BS of "we will teach you" was the speed of which they were able to do the grind .
See , if you slowed down the team , you slowed down the grind , and that was bad .
So we went from "everyone is invited as long as they knew how to play" , to "jump ye high , do it , you will be parsed" .
So, the amount of competence and ship building skills do not equate to your level, or how well you perceive to be. That could be changed, if you wanted to do so. If not, who cares what others do?
That , along with the "cherry picking" of the regular STF channels created a situation where to put it simply , you had a bunch of guys (some of them were really good guys btw) who by their actions (which always speak louder then words) said to the folks who could carry an ESTF (pre-DR) :
"we do not want to play with you" .
And THAT , I find highly offensive ... and no amount of "we will teach you and here , use this Lockbox ship / Scimitar template to get better" will be enough for me .
Wait...not wanting a slow, potentially failed STF is wrong...how? And having your hand held and being taught how to do it isnt enough? It seems like you're saying they should just invite incompetent people and get their rewards for them. Sorry, but that's silly to me. Me, I feel bad if I have to be carried. Pull your own weight, and all that.
You & yours , Mr. DPS Wizard / League / Whatever , do NOT want to play with the "average" STO player , until he / she meets your artificial DPS based standard .
Me and mine? I hover around 20k DPS, and have no desire to go out of my way to change what I'm doing. I don't upload my parses, I don't join DPS channels. I do, however have an issue with "I refuse to play at a higher level, but I want higher level rewards- so you should be carrying me."
But I also understand that for some folks faster = better .
That is all fine and dandy .
But that alone does not justify your existence , it does not justify not wanting to play with others who can finish an STF, but not as fast as you can , and it most certainly does not justify your claim of "if you only would do X you would be "better"" -- because that "better" is just an arbitrary line (chosen by you) , just the same as the DPS's channels are an arbitrary barrier between yourselves and the regular STF channels -- meaning that it's a barrier between ppl who can finish an STF and other players who can finish an STF . (well prior to DR at least )
You quoted me, but you seem to have no idea what I am thinking, or even saying. So probably stop telling me what it is, please. Thanks.
So by the end count -- since I play on the regular STF's channels (as well as used to pug the public queues out of boredom) , I have actually helped a lot more players in this game then those who are willing to share their time & wisdom with those who will jump as high as the DPS channel owners require them to .
(even if I had to drag a lot of them through the missions , or had to give them green sniper rifles in the olden days of the long Cure)
Where do you get your numbers from? Do you know how many people have been helped? Did you conduct a survey? By your logic, you should be dragging them through those STFs anyway, since they can't do them, yet still want the rewards.
If the DPS channels want to disband and mix in with the rest of "us" , hey , more power to them -- as we as a playerbase would all benefit .
Parsing and then cherry picking those who hit 5-10K or more ... that will just lead to segregation , and accusations of elitism (in fact it already does) -- while at the same time leaving one group short of better players , and the other smaller DPS groups in shortage of players period (at times) .
... the author of this rant has played with "LF1M" players from the DPS channels (who were short of players) and was impressed with their abilities ... , but not impressed enough to be ready to jump as high as someone else dictated ... , despite being invited to do so ... :P
At level 60, 5k is almost what I would call incompetent. Yes, I have science ships. I have a science ship with MK XI gear that does above 5k easily, and I'm not even in the same league as the people in these videos.
If you don't like what someone is doing, and it doesn't affect you, who cares? I honestly don't care if someone wants to play the game using a shuttle or T1 ship. Although, once they complain because they can't get Advanced rewards doing it, they have no leg to stand on.
If the people you're lamenting are willing to help people get to their level freely, and you don't want to listen, then you have no right to complain about them. You CAN do what they do, and they will help. You just choose not to. That's only a problem for you, the way I see it.
Just to add additional clarifications: we where approached informally by several devs but getting official communications going seemed to have fizzled.
I'm guessing the devs in question are having trouble sorting out the protocal for this kind of thing.
At this point I no longer care. I wash my hands of all of this. Maybe one of the other DPS admins still cares enough...
I'll make a suggestion here for whichever dev is interested: read and watch any and/or all of the guides that have been made, there are several good ones at www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/wiki
Do an ISA run and parse higher than 10k DPS using CombatLogReader. Upload your score to the DPS League. Within 48 hours a DPS admin will send you an invite to one of the channels (do not message any of the admins for an invite!).
Once in the channels, ask for help and advice. create your ship build in stoacademy, include your skill tree and traits.
Keep an open mind and listen carefully. The most important thing if how you fly the ship, not what gear you have.
Use one of your non dev accounts, no pink text in the DPS channels.
And then D'Angelo spake, saying, "17 shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be 17. 18 shalt thou not count, neither count thou 16, excepting that thou then proceed to 17. Once the number 17, being the 17th number, be reached, being naughty in My sight, thou shalt be called an exploiter."
:P
To bad it seems he needed better glasses (data), because I know for a fact he missed a lot of people since his data seems to suffer from the same problem as when you use "All" to search in the Exchange.
I know recent changes have left me somewhat discouraged from logging in each day, along with Real Life issues, But I just want to say this, regarding the post.
This is the exact kind of thing , that makes me want to improve my own game. I really do need to check out the DPS meter, I even have it downloaded, but I just can't get enthused enough to get it going.
That being said, before DR, with a stock Excelsior, I was pulling just under 7k, I think the guy who I spoke to said, I was pulling like 6790 DPS. (Please note, that is stock), now of course, that toon is well into the +10k crowd, @ level 58, and with a full outfit of polarons, Undine Deflector, Reman shields, Fleet TRIBBLE out the wazoo.
It will only get better and better. Then I see this, and I think, every day, I'm a little bit better, I don't care about the game goals, when I see things like the video, as much as I do my own. Things like this, will keep me logging in, as a means to better fly, to try new things, to keep pushing what I can do.
So thanks to the OP. Ya gave me a little bit of a new perspective, and a little faith in my fellow players.
Now if only the Falchion allowed for a Int. Boff!
My mother always told me to walk away from a fight, The Marines taught me how.
This post is exactly the kind of helpful constructive feedback the community needs
Thank You
Reading through from the beganing we can clearly see a huge divde in play styles.
The most common player is casual and while the other extreme is DPS.
***snip**.
Blake, if you want anyone to read your post, please do NOT type each sentence on a separate line. It is almost more annoying than ALL CAPS. It is hard to read on the eyes and most people are not or will not read it. That is why we have a little grammar trick called paragraphs. Use them. Our minds have been trained for them. Each new paragraph is to express a new idea based on a thread or point from the prior paragraph--a continuance of thought.
Writing each sentence separately is extremely annoying. Just sayin'. . . .
lol gg guys, once again the wizards' magic won over the devs' attempts to "balance".
Now onto Elite and beyond :D
Sad Pandas PvP - Starfleet Dental Member - Lag Industries Leader
--
"What a time it was, with all the world against us, what a time it was... When all we did seemed wrong,
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
Quote from page4, but since no one bothers reading it, I copy pasta'ed it for you.
Since I don't want to alienate you too early in my reply , I'll just point out that it is considered common courtesy to quote the name(s) of the ppl you're replying to .
If you do not do so , it's considered "talking at ppl" and not "talking to ppl" .
I'll leave it to you to figure out the difference .
I'll leave it at that, as all the other points are just as obvious trolls.
Yeah , since you mixed your answers to two ppl there , I'm sure whoever you've vaguely answered there will appreciate it .
Now to my stuff :
Personally, I have always been against the numbers behind the DPS-Channels names. But.. its the easiest way to tell apart to which part of the community you currently belong.
The segregation could also be called:
Wow ... loved the titles .
They say so much ... about what goes on ... in one's head .
Its not a random seggregation, it actually reflects your proficiency at the game mechanics, because "gear" doesnt really play a big role in this game.
Wait for it ... , you're about to contradict yourself ...
What you don't understand is, that in order to maximize dps even the good players have to make some trade-offs from survivability.
Ahh , so first comes the presumption that I don't understand ... -- hate to break it to you but I've seen many of your remarkably similar FAW builds , so I do understand somewhat ... .
And part of my understanding has lead me to see you contradict yourself when you claimed that gear is not a big deal ... -- while simultaneously your builds house Lobi consoles & Doffs that cost millions or even hundreds of millions on top of many a lockbox / zen ship .
So those builds are clearly from the poorhouse ... , because "gear doesn't really play a big role in this game" .
You're welcome to differ , but that's BS in my humble opinion .
Now , I talked about gear , let's talk attitude .
In my previous post , I voiced my support for dismantling the DPS channels because I saw more benefit of most of the playerbase working together , than us working apart .
What I took away from your response was this :
if you don't want our help. Thats okay, I personally dont care how good or bad you play.
As long as I don't have to play with you.
Thanks buddy .
I don't know why I bother saying this but I don't feel the same way about you , even tho I think you're a ... nevermind .
Interesting that you chose to follow up that bit with this :
It's a teamgame, if you deny your responsibility towards the team, why should I feel in any way related to you? I am not getting paid to carry anyone through this.
a) It's nice to hear you refer to lesser DPS players as a chore "getting paid to play with them" .
b) You have no idea how I play or who I've played with (hint : some of the very first ppl to defeat NWS ., not that I'm in their caliber . )
c) I've stopped counting the number of ppl I've healed (or failed to heal) who use your builds but who explode instead of preform well , because all their Eng console slots are filled with DPS junk , but they don't have the DPS synergy to blow everything up before they get targeted .
See , ultimately I have to deal with the stupid that you shoveled into the game , telling folks that "this is what I use" .
(btw, did a random Queue the other day on my narcine.. Did 39k, some other guy did 21k, and then we had 3 ppl splitting up a total of 5k dps between the three of them... No communication what so ever, every attempt of mine to chat was met with utter silence. But thats just a sidenote because we are all arrogant idiots.)
Well let's see ... , did a pug group of Borg Disconnected Advanced in a D'Deridex , my Doff loadout was unequipped due to the DR loadout bug , two other ships were not lockbox ships and not FAW builds (no idea about the other two) , no idea about my DPS , Mk 12 weapons , no communication , finished the mission , got the accolade before last Thursday's patch , didn't feel like splashing the forums with my humble achievement .
Every half ways good player can squeeze 10k+ out of basically every ship in the game. (Level 10 Rhode Island Sci ship for example.. So if you don't do that, you're either not applying yourself, and therefore intentionally waste everyones (including your own) time, or actually don't know whats going on.
Or I've just played this game enough to know what I need to know , and maybe the only thrill left for me is the unexpected ... which is only really available through the queues ... , as even on the regular STF channels most ppl won't surprise you enough that you have to pull of some minor heroics to save the day .
Situational awareness > DPS every time .
Or ... maybe you're right , maybe I actually don't know what's going on , and maybe I'm intentionally waste everyones (including my own) time .
And behind the BS of farming dilithium, we actually try to beat the hardest challenges in the game (No-Win 2 men etc.)
Sorry bud , but the true heroes of this game were the ones who mapped & beat NWS first , with a whole lot worse equipment than you're packing ... and that was 2 years ago ... .
That was after they gave up on the STF's as a challenge .
Better luck next time Jonny-come-lately . :cool:
What you dont understand is, that in order to maximize dps even the good players have to make some trade-offs from survivability. So if you dont at least play halfways along these ships cant take the heat forever. We fully know and understand that
Yeah ... yeah ... more stuff I don't understand ... -- according to your presumptions .
Want me to clue you into what leads to presumptions ?
See unlike you , I don't make presumptions about the DPS channels . I simply have friends who do that stuff to tell me what the number worshippers are up to .
That is why we take those highly specialized builds into certain missions.
As a team ... who utilizes synergy .
Wanna tell me why do you give builds to ppl who might not have that synergy to back them up ... and thus setting them up for ... an explosive surprise ?
We prepare and exploit teamplay, if that is too much cheating, or effort for you. I am sorry, but I dont see how I am supposed to talk about your personal preferences.
While I appreciate almost any exchange , I think you're hurting yourself more with every statement .
We simply have vastly different preferences .
We appreciate different nuances as well as accomplishments .
As far as I'm concerned , it's all good ... up till a point .
And that point is that I don't appreciate the idea that you & some of yours think that other players who do not bow before the altair of numbers are not worth playing with .
I've also told you before that there are also good players in the DPS channels -- and to clarify my statement -- I meant that those players are not infected with the elitist crud that motivates some of you . Those players are willing to play with anyone , because they still see STO for what it is .
A ****ing game .
When we win ISA in 2 minutes 6 seconds, that gives another group a competitive reason to continue playing this game. To see if they can beat us on the time record.
I like to compare PvE to Golf.
I like to compare it to Star Trek .
Sure , the scenarios are the same , but the randomness of the factors when 4 unknown elements are present are what makes it worth it while ... even after 5 years .
In fact , after 5 years , it's only those elements that matter / interest at all .
Same as PUG PVP ... , only there are more random chances & elements -- something that I often can't stomach after a hard days work .
While on the course we enjoy good competition, when its done though, we sit down with the other competitors and drink coffe/earl grey depending on preference and reflect how we liked it.
We understand that this is highly elitist and dont force anyone to participate in it, but you have to understand that the mindset of competitive gameplay has helped us really improve on all the challenges presented, to a degree, that most people don't even understand what we are doing.
I'm sure you're right on that one , but considering the many presumptions you made about me , my understandings and my play style preferences , I can assure you that lack of understanding is a two way street as far as you and I are concerned .
Let me actually quote a book:
,,The Scrub Mentality
A scrub is not just a bad player. Everyone needs time to learn a game and get to a point where they know what they're doing. The scrub mentality is to be so shackled by self-imposed handicaps as to never have any hope of being truly good at a game. You can practice forever, but if you can't get over these common hangups, in a sense you've lost before you even started. You've lost before you even picked which game to play. You aren't playing to win."
Once again you continue with your assumptions , this time backed by other ppl making assumptions .
"The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing."
So why is it that to me it feels good to heal a random stranger who is loosing health , even if I play a Tac , and even if I explode next because I'm all out of my few heals ?
Why is it that a simple 'thanks for the heals' means more to me then the dil at the end of the run ?
If you give me quotes such as those , I'm genuinely left to wonder if you are even capable of understanding what I just said ... .
if you want to become a better player, you need to try out new things, specialize in certain things and compare/gauge how you are doing. If you don't do that, you'll not improve, and therefore be left behind by everyone willing to improve.
This isn't EVE mate .
You actually have to try to be left behind because nobody is , not intentionally at least .
We also don't cherry pick anything,
Erm ... "wildchild8" , the owner of publicelitestf was publically calling for runs to be parsed in to qualify entery to one DPS channel or another .
When I called him on it -- the fact that his channel is "stiky-ed" here on these forums for actual public stf runs , and not as a recruitment tool for the DPS channels , well let's just say that it was a short conversation , and I have not seen him on publicstf for a long time after that .
We don't force anyone to play the way we do.
I read the requirements that Sarcasmdetector left for the Devs to enter your realm .
If that is your version of not forcing anyone to comply , I have to wonder what is .
If you decide that what we do is all wrong and against you playstyle thats fine, but please realize, that are not being paid to carry you through any of this, even though we do it every now and then (random Qs for fun).
That almost sounded like my version of fun -- with the exception of the "being paid" bit that again implies that you consider lesser DPS capable players as a burden ... which I do not .
This game is an Arms-race by definition,
I question that definition .
I question it by choice , not by blind ignorance .
I question it because before this game sold power and doffs and lockbox ships , this game's "endgame" , the 3 long STF's were a far truer test of team play that mixed space and ground and the need for certain professions at certain times .
It was a far superior raid game then it is now , and you had a hell of a lot LESS gear to rely on ... , which in turn forced you to rely on your team .
The game you play now is a dumbed down version of better days & gameplay and you're glorifying a game that in it's F2P design is meant to appeal to the 15 minute coffee break crowd .
And one of your problems is that you and your crew are trying to claim to be DPS kings of ... of ... this leftover ... that was truly aimed at the lowest common denominator between going F2P and DR , and you don't see how pathetic that is in itself .
You were taught over 4 years that being in the mission is enough to be rewarded, and they are breaking that mindset now. Sure its painful for everyone who was satisfied with how nice their ship looks.
Man you are so arrogant and clueless at the same time ... -- it's almost charming .
We just optimized on getting the job done. Can this all be done very slowly, in an inefficient way that you personally find satisfying? Probably, but why should we be forced to cater to the lowest denominator?
Aaaaand on calling me the lowest denominator , I think we're done .
Thank for taking the time to write up that long post .
It was far more informative then you ever wanted it to be .
In brief, you suck, you know you suck, you know we are better than you, you are just not quite ready to admit it to yourself, and apparently this is causing you to go into some deranged forum writing binge. Ok got it.
Ok, didn't read every page, skimmed it, seems to be casual's against elitists going back and forth.
I respect the DPS people can get with Uber gear/Lobi items/Scimitar's etc.
But, whats the difference between 50K people posting a speed run of ISA vs a 10K team posting a speed run of ISN?
That's what this thread feels like to me.
Cryptic did a revamp specifically to try to give Uber DPS people a more challenging mode. And yet your all still playing Advanced and calling yourself wizards? lol
It's sad that this game somehow changed from STO to ISE online. Casuals, need to ignore these kinda of threads and talk of DPS channels in general and enjoy what you are playing. Try to get as much damage as you can outta what you enjoy.
And the Wizards, if your gonna post and brag the way you do about doing a speed run in ISA, do it without the Scimitar's/Zemof/Tachyo/Bionueral/ etc.
Otherwise at least to me it's just embarrasing to post runs in Top of the line gear in any mode other then "Elite"
No other MMO or game I've ever played did people who have that kinda gear NOT play the hardest setting. And others are agreeing with you which makes no sense. And don't say its because on elite they are a Damage sponge. Your doing 50k......
Yeah no doubt 5 avengers properly setup could do the same thing we did, 5 avengers setup with some of those builds you promoted on pve bootcamp would likely fail an ISA, let alone any elite content. I mean really who combines beam arrays, dual heavy cannons, and torpedos on the front of an avenger. That ship isn't all that good to begin with and you had to go and do that to it.
I'll put my low DPS avenger against any one of the Scimitars in the video... in PVP.
We will see then if the Avenger isn't as good as you are saying.
*waits for the excuse about how they dont PVP*
rofl....
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
In all honesty, cannot decide whether these types of videos are supposed to be useful or, horn blowing?
As a casual, F2P type who will, on occasion, farm dil for zen; I see these and shrug them off. If you would like to teach folks then you need to use the T5 free ships, set them up (non-fleet/non-rep), and show what to do, how to do, and, when to do.
I, occasionally, run with some folks from a couple established fleets and, well...90% of the time, they forget that I (or, others) don't run these often, and do not know the sequence, the best order, or much of anything else. The flip side is that if I inadvertently TRIBBLE something up; they don't get mad but, that is when the 'Oh, we thought you knew how to do this?'...my answer, nearly every time is that they go too fast, and either A) It's over and I actually learned nothing or, I make a mistake, blow an optional (because of A).
That said, there are videos out there that can/do help. But, for many folks (myself included) they only help so much until we actually do it, preferably several times, to get it down.
We play on advanced because only a handful of Missions are available on Elite (Korfez has been trolled often enough). This actually is the highest available difficulty for Infected Space.
The Wizards reference comes from p1 podcast 194.
an older recording, but should be what ur looking for: (note that 12k is the current requirement for ISA which is claimed to be overly difficult) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGp-uhCqPBA
no other MMO or game I've ever played did people who have that kinda gear NOT play the hardest setting. And others are agreeing with you which makes no sense.
In all honesty, cannot decide whether these types of videos are supposed to be useful or, horn blowing?
As a casual, F2P type who will, on occasion, farm dil for zen; I see these and shrug them off. If you would like to teach folks then you need to use the T5 free ships, set them up (non-fleet/non-rep), and show what to do, how to do, and, when to do.
I did a few of those for my fleet, with mk xi blue weapons -which were and are very cheap- and gear from some episodes (noteable the shield from "where angels fear to thread" and of course subspace field modulator and nimbus pirates).
There are large timegaps between those vids and I stopped doing them.
The reason is simple: Its depressing. Its depressing when you fly such a ship in an elite stf (prior DR), and you are on top of the combatlog without using faw. 6.5k was my lowest score, 8k the usual, and 10-11k when I was on kdf (plasmonic leech is very cheap there, one-time investment ) or had another decent one with me in pugs. In premades it was of course higher, but those arent good for teaching stuff (mission tend to be too short).
Its no fun when you use a undergeared ship, no reps etc. and outperfom (not only outdps, but also outheal or outtank) others with shining gear.
That is the reason why ryan said, that gear doesnt matter much. It simple doesnt. It matters if you want really high dps, but for around 10k, it doesnt. The lack of a plasmonic leech can be offset in those regions quite easily.
My (geared) atrox also pugs with 15-19k, while having high heal, cc, and drain-abilities.
Doing dps is very easy. Doing dps and something secondary, or something primary with addition of dps is very easy. You just need to break your rigid mindset and "think outside the box". I have had many ships, which I revamped by completely deleting their concept and starting anew, e.g. forget everything about concept one and go back to the drawing board.
So I cant really understand ppl saying "i am an healer, I dont do dps", as those things aint mutually exclusive. And the biggest BS is "I dont need dps, I am a tank", as a tank need dps so their dps*aggro is bigger then those of their teammates. If not, its not a tank, its a failboat, as it does neither tank nor dps.
Its the good old story of "It always worked this way, it will always work this way.", and that is a rigid and -pardon me- very stupid way of life.
And aside from the scrubs - the ones with a horizon with a radius of zero- the other big group are new players. And here I blame cryptic, for not implementing a real tutorial, and every fleet that doesnt have a (good) mentoring program.
Active, good mentoring is necessary. That why it wouldnt be "advanced is too hard, buhu" but rather "hey, a new adventure".
We play on advanced because only a handful of Missions are available on Elite (Korfez has been trolled often enough). This actually is the highest available difficulty for Infected Space.
The Wizards reference comes from p1 podcast 194.
an older recording, but should be what ur looking for: (note that 12k is the current requirement for ISA which is claimed to be overly difficult) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGp-uhCqPBA
But thanks for asking b4 judging.
Gotcha, don't get as much time to play since DR as I wish, Guess I missed that.
Not sure what a 4 Scimitar 1 Recluse video shows though.
now on ISA, random 10k group, mind the equip did not change (got the Scimitar-only pets so the new price is 294248 for the entire build outside of Zen ships), no GDF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1uzJG8P6iA
It shows that if you build a ship with beams, get the proper weapontype and set power to weapons, its not overly difficult to beat ISA.
3. Why the hate for the higher DPS queues, with the whole expansion being about more power creep?
Just levelling to 60 will get you more dps. Just getting better weapons will get you more dps. Using the ship specializations, skills, and traits, will get you more dps. And you don't even have to acquire more skill for any of this.
I don't hate anything but i'll weigh in. A Sci or Engi build survives easier than a DPS'er, so if they make the mission simply who has more dps, it won't bother me running an engi build it'll bother people like those you are describing who have high dps and no tank or sci abilities.
We need a more creative solution like a mission element that requires a tank or sci ship, or some more benefits of them over just pure DPS.
-edit
To anyone saying if you can't run enough DPS you deserve to die on a mission, well it doesn't work that way, because I don't die, you do before me unless I am asleep.
Being mad at anyone doesn't help, suggesting solutions help. I'll cover your first point at the bottom quote as there is something you are missing.
Experience of the mission helps but not as much as you are inferring here. Experience in the ship build itself is vastly more helpful.
I don't hate anything but i'll weigh in. A Sci or Engi build survives easier than a DPS'er, so if they make the mission simply who has more dps, it won't bother me running an engi build it'll bother people like those you are describing who have high dps and no tank or sci abilities.
We need a more creative solution like a mission element that requires a tank or sci ship, or some more benefits of them over just pure DPS.
-edit
To anyone saying if you can't run enough DPS you deserve to die on a mission, well it doesn't work that way, because I don't die, you do before me unless I am asleep.
I agree 100% I get a chuckle when im in a stf with a dps guy and my sci ship is hitting 5,000 dps and this guy's yelling at me then starts to get one shoted and spends his time responding then starts screaming at me for a heal lol I love it
Being mad at anyone doesn't help, suggesting solutions help. I'll cover your first point at the bottom quote as there is something you are missing.
Experience of the mission helps but not as much as you are inferring here. Experience in the ship build itself is vastly more helpful.
I don't hate anything but i'll weigh in. A Sci or Engi build survives easier than a DPS'er, so if they make the mission simply who has more dps, it won't bother me running an engi build it'll bother people like those you are describing who have high dps and no tank or sci abilities.
We need a more creative solution like a mission element that requires a tank or sci ship, or some more benefits of them over just pure DPS.
-edit
To anyone saying if you can't run enough DPS you deserve to die on a mission, well it doesn't work that way, because I don't die, you do before me unless I am asleep.
Although quoting this out of context kind of....makes it make absolutely no sense (as I was replying to someone's vitriol at "DPS people"):
1. I'm referring to people who waltz into an Advanced queue and put out 2k DPS. I have a science ship. I know how to use it (and love it!). If I only put out 2k DPS, I would be horribly apologetic for being mostly useless. Sorry, I didn't create the missions. I didn't make everything require "moar deeps." It's just how it is. No solution put to the players will help. None of us designed any of this. Timers= a certain amount of required DPS, sorry. No amount of crowd control rolls back the timer.
2. If you have no experience whatsoever in a mission (IE running an advanced version of something you've never even seen on Normal), you're at a distinct disadvantage. At best, you are clueless as to what to do. At worst, you're trolling or trying to get rewards off of someone else's effort.
3. If you "don't hate anything" why weigh in on something where I was specifically quoting someone who was? Not sure why you felt it applied to you.
4. You do understand that "tanking" requires a relatively high amount of DPS to hold aggro, right? I keep seeing this explained, but just because you have a zillion hull, doesn't make you an effective tank. Staying alive does not beat a STF, IIRC.
I agree 100% I get a chuckle when im in a stf with a dps guy and my sci ship is hitting 5,000 dps and this guy's yelling at me then starts to get one shoted and spends his time responding then starts screaming at me for a heal lol I love it
Shouldn't a sci ship that is doing low dps be healing, though? Just sayin'. If you're not healing, and not putting out much damage.....?
Comments
It's not an issue of "fault" , it's an issue of setting up artificial standards where none existed before .
Back in the day , before the queues , when we all shouted around in Gamma Orianis in Zone Chat -- nobody looked for players with X DPS .
That was unheard of .
The only thing ppl looked for sometimes was a Sci player to help finish Cure ground .
That was a community that was not artificially segregated .
Then came the use of channels , some more well known , some less -- but all had the idea that was based on looking for ppl who could at least play an STF from A-Z .
Most channels were open to "carry" a newbie , to show him the ropes .
But then things changed with the rise of the DPS channels .
Suddenly you had to shoot X high to get invited .
Knowing how to finish an STF was no longer of value .
Choosing to switch and come with a low DPS ship was frowned upon (mildly or not so mildly depending on the channel) -- because behind the BS of "we will teach you" was the speed of which they were able to do the grind .
See , if you slowed down the team , you slowed down the grind , and that was bad .
So we went from "everyone is invited as long as they knew how to play" , to "jump ye high , do it , you will be parsed" .
That , along with the "cherry picking" of the regular STF channels created a situation where to put it simply , you had a bunch of guys (some of them were really good guys btw) who by their actions (which always speak louder then words) said to the folks who could carry an ESTF (pre-DR) :
"we do not want to play with you" .
And THAT , I find highly offensive ... and no amount of "we will teach you and here , use this Lockbox ship / Scimitar template to get better" will be enough for me .
You & yours , Mr. DPS Wizard / League / Whatever , do NOT want to play with the "average" STO player , until he / she meets your artificial DPS based standard .
And that is the definition of elitism .
But I also understand that for some folks faster = better .
That is all fine and dandy .
But that alone does not justify your existence , it does not justify not wanting to play with others who can finish an STF, but not as fast as you can , and it most certainly does not justify your claim of "if you only would do X you would be "better"" -- because that "better" is just an arbitrary line (chosen by you) , just the same as the DPS's channels are an arbitrary barrier between yourselves and the regular STF channels -- meaning that it's a barrier between ppl who can finish an STF and other players who can finish an STF . (well prior to DR at least
So by the end count -- since I play on the regular STF's channels (as well as used to pug the public queues out of boredom) , I have actually helped a lot more players in this game then those who are willing to share their time & wisdom with those who will jump as high as the DPS channel owners require them to .
(even if I had to drag a lot of them through the missions , or had to give them green sniper rifles in the olden days of the long Cure)
If the DPS channels want to disband and mix in with the rest of "us" , hey , more power to them -- as we as a playerbase would all benefit .
Parsing and then cherry picking those who hit 5-10K or more ... that will just lead to segregation , and accusations of elitism (in fact it already does) -- while at the same time leaving one group short of better players , and the other smaller DPS groups in shortage of players period (at times) .
... the author of this rant has played with "LF1M" players from the DPS channels (who were short of players) and was impressed with their abilities ... , but not impressed enough to be ready to jump as high as someone else dictated ... , despite being invited to do so ... :P
And then D'Angelo spake, saying, "17 shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be 17. 18 shalt thou not count, neither count thou 16, excepting that thou then proceed to 17. Once the number 17, being the 17th number, be reached, being naughty in My sight, thou shalt be called an exploiter."
:P
Lol hey there... I dont fly a JHDC but are you me by any chance?
Best post I've read in here the past 2 weeks!
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
SOOOOO much Win with this statement!!!!!!!! Bring out your dead. . . . . .
DPS Channels / League Info (STO Forums)
We never wanted that the game in general becomes overly difficult for the majority of people, we never asked for advanced (which was supposed to be the old elite) to be a 4 times increase. We asked for a new difficulty that would actually be challenging. These videos serve the purpose of showing, that the difficulty is not being increased by sliding the HP multiplier up. We, as well, never asked for the decrease in dilithium and neural processor gains from the STFs, Cryptic decided to do that on their own, and they can have all the credit for it.
Also this is to prove the point of "leveling 17 times faster", which they call an exploit. Well, if you can find it... tell us. Because we mostly didn't even level in Tau Dewa and stil got most of our points removed. My Federation toon was 2 mins 30 secs in a Charraya patrol at level 51, does that justify taking like 20 spec points away?
On another note, these videos may be used as a guideline, along with our guide videos where we explain how and why these builds work. But they do at no point force you to play anything like this. This is a suggestion and a practical display of how things can (!) be played, but not neccessarily have to be played. Therefore no one needs to feel vilified.
We offered talking to.. basically everyone of the staff we could find. To little/no effect at all.
Even though on the podcast one guy claimed he would like talking to us, trying to get into contact has thus far not worked. There have been some informal "yea we should talk" things, but as stated, nothing real ever came of it.
So we do this to raise some more attention.
If anyone on the Staff feels like talking, i am quite sure you know where to find us.
Quote from page4, but since no one bothers reading it, I copy pasta'ed it for you.
--
The Scimitar Is a broken ship giving more dps from hidden perks ...nothing else explains its op firepower many other romulan ships are just as good but fall short in dps...I propose its a sell gimmick by cryptic.
<- i hope thats a troll or a good display of the delusion.
I'll leave it at that, as all the other points are just as obvious trolls.
Personally, I have always been against the numbers behind the DPS-Channels names. But.. its the easiest way to tell apart to which part of the community you currently belong.
The seggragation could also be called:
DPS- Casual (Called DPS-Public)
DPS- Half ways trying (10k)
DPS- Decent (20k)
DPS - Try-Hard (30k)
Its not a random seggregation, it actually reflects your proficiency at the game mechanics, because "gear" doesnt really play a big role in this game. We also do not exclude anyone because he is flying the wrong build. I personally did 38k the other day on a particle Generator/Torpedo build.
Every half ways good player can squeeze 10k+ out of basically every ship in the game. (Level 10 Rhode Island Sci ship for example.. So if you dont do that, you're either not applying yourself, and therefore intentionally waste everyones (including your own) time, or actually don't know whats going on.
because behind the BS of "we will teach you".. is kinda real, if you dont want our help. Thats okay, I personally dont care how good or bad you play. As long as I don't have to play with you. It's a teamgame, if you deny your responsiblity towards the team, why should I feel in any way related to you? I am not getting paid to carry anyone through this.
And behind the BS of farming dilithium, we actually try to beat the hardest challenges in the game (No-Win 2 men etc.)
(btw, did a random Queue the other day on my narcine.. Did 39k, some other guy did 21k, and then we had 3 ppl splitting up a total of 5k dps between the three of them... No communication what so ever, every attempt of mine to chat was met with utter silence. But thats just a sidenote because we are all arrogant idiots.)
Why do the guys on the Premier League not want to play with you by the way?
Actually, lets go a little more into detail here, because thats a point that rises every now and then.
This is a misconception. What you dont understand is, that in order to maximize dps even the good players have to make some trade-offs from survivability. So if you dont at least play halfways along these ships cant take the heat forever. We fully know and understand that. That is why we take those highly specialized builds into certain missions. We prepare and exploit teamplay, if that is too much cheating, or effort for you. I am sorry, but I dont see how I am supposed to talk about your personal preferences.
Specializing in certain things allows you to achieve far higher results though... 2 Men no win scenario is a good example... Why can we beat it with 2 players, while most cant with 5?
No, thats because they underperform from an objective point of view: Combatlog doesn't read out your feelings, but your contribution to the teams victory, if you win it. Sure, its not 100% accurate, there is some fake-damage. But all the effects are miniscule usually. And if that gets us killed or we have to carry him entirely through there, then yes. We are not getting paid enough to pain ourselves watching how you fail south with 3 players.
If you do under 10k DPS in this game, you are currently not interested in dealing damage. Thats fine by me, but dont expect me to try carrying you through for free. Its not a seggregation of people I like, versus people I dont like. Its about people that apply themselves and people that dont f.ing care about gameplay, but go to the forums to explain why what they do should be valid, while there is no reflection of that in the actual gameplay.
The arbitrariness of these numbers is so low, that if you halfways think about what u'r doing, you will find it not difficult to get into 10k.
Its a line between players that will work things out, do some testing and get the mission done..
versus people that will then take those results and get the mission done;
versus people that you need to take by the hand and walk through it, but yet willing to improve;
versus people that explain to you, why you are the real problem and they dont want your solution, even if you clearly showed that it worked.
Let me actually quote a book:
,,The Scrub Mentality
"Scrub" is not a term I made up. It sounds like kind of a harsh term, but it's the one that was already in common usage in games to describe a certain type of player, and it made more sense to me to explain that rather than to coin a new term.
A scrub is not just a bad player. Everyone needs time to learn a game and get to a point where they know what they're doing. The scrub mentality is to be so shackled by self-imposed handicaps as to never have any hope of being truly good at a game. You can practice forever, but if you can't get over these common hangups, in a sense you've lost before you even started. You've lost before you even picked which game to play. You aren't playing to win.
A scrub would disagree with this though. They'd say they are trying very hard. The problem is they are only trying hard within a construct of fictitious rules that prevent them from ever truly competing.
"That's Cheap!"
Scrubs are likely to label a wide variety of moves and tactics as "cheap." For example, performing a throw in fighting games is often called cheap. A throw is a move that grabs an opponent and damages them even while they're defending against all other kinds of attacks. Throws exist specifically to allow you to damage opponents who block and don't attack.
As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it's meant to be there—yet scrubs construct their own set of principles that state they should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. Scrubs think of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect them indefinitely. Throwing violates the rules in their heads even though it doesn't violate any actual game rule.
A scrub would not throw their opponent 5 times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimize your chances of winning? It's "cheap," though, throwing is cheap. And it's not just throwing, it's also a long list of somewhat arbitrary maneuvers. If you keep a scrub away from you by zoning them with projectile attacks, you'll probably be called cheap. If you do one move over and over, that's cheap. If you get a lead, then do nothing for 30 seconds so that you can win by time-out, that's cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap.
Let's specifically consider the case where you do one move over and over. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Are they such a poor player that they can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't you be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing.
"It's Not Fun To Play That Way"
This might be true, or it might not be, depending on the game. The scrub mentality is to make this claim for basically all games though so beware of that."
David Sirlin, Playing to win
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win
We are all proud of your carrying skills, but if you want to become a better player, you need to try out new things, specialize in certain things and compare/gauge how you are doing. If you don't do that, you'll not improve, and therefore be left behind by everyone willing to improve.
We also dont cherry pick anything, we just offer assistance to players across the board: DPS-public is the entry level channel, and doesnt require you to jump over anything. But lets turn this around, how about you try to improve?
We don't force anyone to play the way we do.
(go read page 4 guys.)
If you decide that what we do is all wrong and against you playstyle thats fine, but please realize, that are not being paid to carry you through any of this, even though we do it every now and then (random Qs for fun). You have to understand, that from a 10 to 25k perspective it looks intentional if you deal 3k dps, which a freshly unboxed ship, not equipped with any consoles or bridge officers can pull, just by allocating power to weapons and shooting.
This game is an Arms-race by definition, timers on mission fail if you don't deal X amounts of DPS within the timelimit, sure it has been kinda low so far but the hp-scaling further enforced that point. You were taught over 4 years that being in the mission is enough to be rewarded, and they are breaking that mindset now. Sure its painful for everyone who was satisfied with how nice their ship looks. We just optimized on getting the job done. Can this all be done very slowly, in an inefficient way that you personally find satisfying? Probably, but why should we be forced to cater to the lowest denominator? Winning the STF is basically a foregone conclusion for us, we want to optimize within the completion of the STF. When we win ISA in 2 minutes 6 seconds, that gives another group a competitive reason to continue playing this game. To see if they can beat us on the time record.
I like to compare PvE to Golf.
On the course you fight yourself. Strive for perfection, wouldn't under par be awesome? When its done, you compare numbers.
Getting the first kill on a difficult mission is a race. Holding the speed record on a mission is a race. Holding the damage record on a mission is a race.
While on the course we enjoy good competition, when its done though, we sit down with the other competitors and drink coffe/earl grey depending on preference and reflect how we liked it.
We understand that this is highly elitist and dont force anyone to participate in it, but you have to understand that the mindset of competitive gameplay has helped us really improve on all the challenges presented, to a degree, that most people don't even understand what we are doing.
best regards
RyanSTO
That will leave 99% of the players ***ed up. They think this is what the average player is. I know its not the player's fault, but Cryptics, but still.
Also, Scimitars, Faw everywhere.
If by "artificial standards," you mean "able to competently perform at x level," you're correct.
How is a high DPS channel any different than a Roleplaying channel? Two different ways of enjoying the game, IMO.
So, the amount of competence and ship building skills do not equate to your level, or how well you perceive to be. That could be changed, if you wanted to do so. If not, who cares what others do?
Wait...not wanting a slow, potentially failed STF is wrong...how? And having your hand held and being taught how to do it isnt enough? It seems like you're saying they should just invite incompetent people and get their rewards for them. Sorry, but that's silly to me. Me, I feel bad if I have to be carried. Pull your own weight, and all that.
Me and mine? I hover around 20k DPS, and have no desire to go out of my way to change what I'm doing. I don't upload my parses, I don't join DPS channels. I do, however have an issue with "I refuse to play at a higher level, but I want higher level rewards- so you should be carrying me."
You quoted me, but you seem to have no idea what I am thinking, or even saying. So probably stop telling me what it is, please. Thanks.
Where do you get your numbers from? Do you know how many people have been helped? Did you conduct a survey? By your logic, you should be dragging them through those STFs anyway, since they can't do them, yet still want the rewards.
At level 60, 5k is almost what I would call incompetent. Yes, I have science ships. I have a science ship with MK XI gear that does above 5k easily, and I'm not even in the same league as the people in these videos.
If you don't like what someone is doing, and it doesn't affect you, who cares? I honestly don't care if someone wants to play the game using a shuttle or T1 ship. Although, once they complain because they can't get Advanced rewards doing it, they have no leg to stand on.
If the people you're lamenting are willing to help people get to their level freely, and you don't want to listen, then you have no right to complain about them. You CAN do what they do, and they will help. You just choose not to. That's only a problem for you, the way I see it.
This post is exactly the kind of helpful constructive feedback the community needs
Thank You
Reading through from the beganing we can clearly see a huge divde in play styles.
The most common player is casual and while the other extreme is DPS.
One solution is to elimnate that chasm with a DPS cap, not popular but would make it easy for the DEVs to balance difficulty.
Now I like my high DPS build and love smashing Borg and such, but there was a point it became too easy.
DPS is really just push fire watch blow up, from beta until recently I never really played with SCI ships.
That experience has brought a new challenge to the game for me with new aspects.
With Delta Rising some need for SCI abilities has come back.
Watching tanks with all the threat they can get then never pop laughing with joy is something I don't want to go away.
New players don't have knowledge or the means to outfit a mighty build from the start.
I see the need is to keep the experience healthy for them as the most important goal.
The game needs new people, they need an enjoyable experience that's achievable.
That means baby steps, learning what BOFF & DOFFs can do, piloting the ship to see what it can take.
One of the main goals should be to first to teach new people how to survive in a pug.
Entire teams of experience players are not always around to play with and nobody finds glass cannon fun at the respawn point.
When people learn to survive they can upgrade and grind to outfit better DOFFS and ship equipment.
Then people can take on the next level.
While this post was originally about showing what can be done it should be what can we can do for the average player.
Without the average player, keeping the ones we have, and helping future new players.
They will cut the DEV team, cut content and what we have will slowly go away.
To bad it seems he needed better glasses (data), because I know for a fact he missed a lot of people since his data seems to suffer from the same problem as when you use "All" to search in the Exchange.
This is the exact kind of thing , that makes me want to improve my own game. I really do need to check out the DPS meter, I even have it downloaded, but I just can't get enthused enough to get it going.
That being said, before DR, with a stock Excelsior, I was pulling just under 7k, I think the guy who I spoke to said, I was pulling like 6790 DPS. (Please note, that is stock), now of course, that toon is well into the +10k crowd, @ level 58, and with a full outfit of polarons, Undine Deflector, Reman shields, Fleet TRIBBLE out the wazoo.
It will only get better and better. Then I see this, and I think, every day, I'm a little bit better, I don't care about the game goals, when I see things like the video, as much as I do my own. Things like this, will keep me logging in, as a means to better fly, to try new things, to keep pushing what I can do.
So thanks to the OP. Ya gave me a little bit of a new perspective, and a little faith in my fellow players.
Now if only the Falchion allowed for a Int. Boff!
Blake, if you want anyone to read your post, please do NOT type each sentence on a separate line. It is almost more annoying than ALL CAPS. It is hard to read on the eyes and most people are not or will not read it. That is why we have a little grammar trick called paragraphs. Use them. Our minds have been trained for them. Each new paragraph is to express a new idea based on a thread or point from the prior paragraph--a continuance of thought.
Writing each sentence separately is extremely annoying. Just sayin'. . . .
DPS Channels / League Info (STO Forums)
Now onto Elite and beyond
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
Since I don't want to alienate you too early in my reply , I'll just point out that it is considered common courtesy to quote the name(s) of the ppl you're replying to .
If you do not do so , it's considered "talking at ppl" and not "talking to ppl" .
I'll leave it to you to figure out the difference .
Yeah , since you mixed your answers to two ppl there , I'm sure whoever you've vaguely answered there will appreciate it .
Now to my stuff :
Wow ... loved the titles .
They say so much ... about what goes on ... in one's head .
Wait for it ... , you're about to contradict yourself ...
Ahh , so first comes the presumption that I don't understand ... -- hate to break it to you but I've seen many of your remarkably similar FAW builds , so I do understand somewhat ... .
And part of my understanding has lead me to see you contradict yourself when you claimed that gear is not a big deal ... -- while simultaneously your builds house Lobi consoles & Doffs that cost millions or even hundreds of millions on top of many a lockbox / zen ship .
So those builds are clearly from the poorhouse ... , because "gear doesn't really play a big role in this game" .
You're welcome to differ , but that's BS in my humble opinion .
Now , I talked about gear , let's talk attitude .
In my previous post , I voiced my support for dismantling the DPS channels because I saw more benefit of most of the playerbase working together , than us working apart .
What I took away from your response was this :
Thanks buddy .
I don't know why I bother saying this but I don't feel the same way about you , even tho I think you're a ... nevermind .
Interesting that you chose to follow up that bit with this :
a) It's nice to hear you refer to lesser DPS players as a chore "getting paid to play with them" .
b) You have no idea how I play or who I've played with (hint : some of the very first ppl to defeat NWS ., not that I'm in their caliber . )
c) I've stopped counting the number of ppl I've healed (or failed to heal) who use your builds but who explode instead of preform well , because all their Eng console slots are filled with DPS junk , but they don't have the DPS synergy to blow everything up before they get targeted .
See , ultimately I have to deal with the stupid that you shoveled into the game , telling folks that "this is what I use" .
Well let's see ... , did a pug group of Borg Disconnected Advanced in a D'Deridex , my Doff loadout was unequipped due to the DR loadout bug , two other ships were not lockbox ships and not FAW builds (no idea about the other two) , no idea about my DPS , Mk 12 weapons , no communication , finished the mission , got the accolade before last Thursday's patch , didn't feel like splashing the forums with my humble achievement .
Or I've just played this game enough to know what I need to know , and maybe the only thrill left for me is the unexpected ... which is only really available through the queues ... , as even on the regular STF channels most ppl won't surprise you enough that you have to pull of some minor heroics to save the day .
Situational awareness > DPS every time .
Or ... maybe you're right , maybe I actually don't know what's going on , and maybe I'm intentionally waste everyones (including my own) time .
Sorry bud , but the true heroes of this game were the ones who mapped & beat NWS first , with a whole lot worse equipment than you're packing ... and that was 2 years ago ... .
That was after they gave up on the STF's as a challenge .
Better luck next time Jonny-come-lately . :cool:
Yeah ... yeah ... more stuff I don't understand ... -- according to your presumptions .
Want me to clue you into what leads to presumptions ?
See unlike you , I don't make presumptions about the DPS channels . I simply have friends who do that stuff to tell me what the number worshippers are up to .
As a team ... who utilizes synergy .
Wanna tell me why do you give builds to ppl who might not have that synergy to back them up ... and thus setting them up for ... an explosive surprise ?
While I appreciate almost any exchange , I think you're hurting yourself more with every statement .
We simply have vastly different preferences .
We appreciate different nuances as well as accomplishments .
As far as I'm concerned , it's all good ... up till a point .
And that point is that I don't appreciate the idea that you & some of yours think that other players who do not bow before the altair of numbers are not worth playing with .
I've also told you before that there are also good players in the DPS channels -- and to clarify my statement -- I meant that those players are not infected with the elitist crud that motivates some of you . Those players are willing to play with anyone , because they still see STO for what it is .
A ****ing game .
I like to compare it to Star Trek .
Sure , the scenarios are the same , but the randomness of the factors when 4 unknown elements are present are what makes it worth it while ... even after 5 years .
In fact , after 5 years , it's only those elements that matter / interest at all .
Same as PUG PVP ... , only there are more random chances & elements -- something that I often can't stomach after a hard days work .
I'm sure you're right on that one , but considering the many presumptions you made about me , my understandings and my play style preferences , I can assure you that lack of understanding is a two way street as far as you and I are concerned .
Once again you continue with your assumptions , this time backed by other ppl making assumptions .
So why is it that to me it feels good to heal a random stranger who is loosing health , even if I play a Tac , and even if I explode next because I'm all out of my few heals ?
Why is it that a simple 'thanks for the heals' means more to me then the dil at the end of the run ?
If you give me quotes such as those , I'm genuinely left to wonder if you are even capable of understanding what I just said ... .
This isn't EVE mate .
You actually have to try to be left behind because nobody is , not intentionally at least .
Erm ... "wildchild8" , the owner of publicelitestf was publically calling for runs to be parsed in to qualify entery to one DPS channel or another .
When I called him on it -- the fact that his channel is "stiky-ed" here on these forums for actual public stf runs , and not as a recruitment tool for the DPS channels , well let's just say that it was a short conversation , and I have not seen him on publicstf for a long time after that .
I read the requirements that Sarcasmdetector left for the Devs to enter your realm .
If that is your version of not forcing anyone to comply , I have to wonder what is .
That almost sounded like my version of fun -- with the exception of the "being paid" bit that again implies that you consider lesser DPS capable players as a burden ... which I do not .
I question that definition .
I question it by choice , not by blind ignorance .
I question it because before this game sold power and doffs and lockbox ships , this game's "endgame" , the 3 long STF's were a far truer test of team play that mixed space and ground and the need for certain professions at certain times .
It was a far superior raid game then it is now , and you had a hell of a lot LESS gear to rely on ... , which in turn forced you to rely on your team .
The game you play now is a dumbed down version of better days & gameplay and you're glorifying a game that in it's F2P design is meant to appeal to the 15 minute coffee break crowd .
And one of your problems is that you and your crew are trying to claim to be DPS kings of ... of ... this leftover ... that was truly aimed at the lowest common denominator between going F2P and DR , and you don't see how pathetic that is in itself .
Man you are so arrogant and clueless at the same time ... -- it's almost charming .
Aaaaand on calling me the lowest denominator , I think we're done .
Thank for taking the time to write up that long post .
It was far more informative then you ever wanted it to be .
I respect the DPS people can get with Uber gear/Lobi items/Scimitar's etc.
But, whats the difference between 50K people posting a speed run of ISA vs a 10K team posting a speed run of ISN?
That's what this thread feels like to me.
Cryptic did a revamp specifically to try to give Uber DPS people a more challenging mode. And yet your all still playing Advanced and calling yourself wizards? lol
It's sad that this game somehow changed from STO to ISE online. Casuals, need to ignore these kinda of threads and talk of DPS channels in general and enjoy what you are playing. Try to get as much damage as you can outta what you enjoy.
And the Wizards, if your gonna post and brag the way you do about doing a speed run in ISA, do it without the Scimitar's/Zemof/Tachyo/Bionueral/ etc.
Otherwise at least to me it's just embarrasing to post runs in Top of the line gear in any mode other then "Elite"
No other MMO or game I've ever played did people who have that kinda gear NOT play the hardest setting. And others are agreeing with you which makes no sense. And don't say its because on elite they are a Damage sponge. Your doing 50k......
I'll put my low DPS avenger against any one of the Scimitars in the video... in PVP.
We will see then if the Avenger isn't as good as you are saying.
*waits for the excuse about how they dont PVP*
rofl....
Still wondering if you could do that without the broken (check the last patchnotes) nukara-2-pcs-set.
aww, if it is so, then show me how you make 30k dps/beat ISA by using DSSVs.
You are not "elite" by using the best stuff available. You are elite if you succeed by using virtually anything.
And I'll put my low DPS Vesta against your Avenger ... in a Tour the Galaxy speedrun.
Apples and oranges.
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As a casual, F2P type who will, on occasion, farm dil for zen; I see these and shrug them off. If you would like to teach folks then you need to use the T5 free ships, set them up (non-fleet/non-rep), and show what to do, how to do, and, when to do.
I, occasionally, run with some folks from a couple established fleets and, well...90% of the time, they forget that I (or, others) don't run these often, and do not know the sequence, the best order, or much of anything else. The flip side is that if I inadvertently TRIBBLE something up; they don't get mad but, that is when the 'Oh, we thought you knew how to do this?'...my answer, nearly every time is that they go too fast, and either A) It's over and I actually learned nothing or,
That said, there are videos out there that can/do help. But, for many folks (myself included) they only help so much until we actually do it, preferably several times, to get it down.
Sarah Knightly - Co-leader; Frontier Explorers - U.S.S. Witchblade
Rias Gremory - Leader; Frontier Marauders - I.K.S. B'ullwinkle
Actually it would be quite amusing to show you what our 5 scimitars can do to your 5 avengers in a pvp.
Episode 3, Part 3 and Episode 4 is for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9ocZfZAHJk&list=PLMuD-YI-u3TnphAERG7O1R4oeMivCnrTB
@synthiasuicide
We play on advanced because only a handful of Missions are available on Elite (Korfez has been trolled often enough). This actually is the highest available difficulty for Infected Space.
The Wizards reference comes from p1 podcast 194.
an older recording, but should be what ur looking for: (note that 12k is the current requirement for ISA which is claimed to be overly difficult)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGp-uhCqPBA
But thanks for asking b4 judging.
I did a few of those for my fleet, with mk xi blue weapons -which were and are very cheap- and gear from some episodes (noteable the shield from "where angels fear to thread" and of course subspace field modulator and nimbus pirates).
There are large timegaps between those vids and I stopped doing them.
The reason is simple: Its depressing. Its depressing when you fly such a ship in an elite stf (prior DR), and you are on top of the combatlog without using faw. 6.5k was my lowest score, 8k the usual, and 10-11k when I was on kdf (plasmonic leech is very cheap there, one-time investment
Its no fun when you use a undergeared ship, no reps etc. and outperfom (not only outdps, but also outheal or outtank) others with shining gear.
That is the reason why ryan said, that gear doesnt matter much. It simple doesnt. It matters if you want really high dps, but for around 10k, it doesnt. The lack of a plasmonic leech can be offset in those regions quite easily.
My (geared) atrox also pugs with 15-19k, while having high heal, cc, and drain-abilities.
Doing dps is very easy. Doing dps and something secondary, or something primary with addition of dps is very easy. You just need to break your rigid mindset and "think outside the box". I have had many ships, which I revamped by completely deleting their concept and starting anew, e.g. forget everything about concept one and go back to the drawing board.
So I cant really understand ppl saying "i am an healer, I dont do dps", as those things aint mutually exclusive. And the biggest BS is "I dont need dps, I am a tank", as a tank need dps so their dps*aggro is bigger then those of their teammates. If not, its not a tank, its a failboat, as it does neither tank nor dps.
Its the good old story of "It always worked this way, it will always work this way.", and that is a rigid and -pardon me- very stupid way of life.
And aside from the scrubs - the ones with a horizon with a radius of zero- the other big group are new players. And here I blame cryptic, for not implementing a real tutorial, and every fleet that doesnt have a (good) mentoring program.
Active, good mentoring is necessary. That why it wouldnt be "advanced is too hard, buhu" but rather "hey, a new adventure".
Gotcha, don't get as much time to play since DR as I wish, Guess I missed that.
Not sure what a 4 Scimitar 1 Recluse video shows though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1uzJG8P6iA
It shows that if you build a ship with beams, get the proper weapontype and set power to weapons, its not overly difficult to beat ISA.
no 4 Scimitars, 1 Recluse.. better?:)
best regards
RyanSTO
Being mad at anyone doesn't help, suggesting solutions help. I'll cover your first point at the bottom quote as there is something you are missing.
Experience of the mission helps but not as much as you are inferring here. Experience in the ship build itself is vastly more helpful.
I don't hate anything but i'll weigh in. A Sci or Engi build survives easier than a DPS'er, so if they make the mission simply who has more dps, it won't bother me running an engi build it'll bother people like those you are describing who have high dps and no tank or sci abilities.
We need a more creative solution like a mission element that requires a tank or sci ship, or some more benefits of them over just pure DPS.
-edit
To anyone saying if you can't run enough DPS you deserve to die on a mission, well it doesn't work that way, because I don't die, you do before me unless I am asleep.
I agree 100% I get a chuckle when im in a stf with a dps guy and my sci ship is hitting 5,000 dps and this guy's yelling at me then starts to get one shoted and spends his time responding then starts screaming at me for a heal lol I love it
Although quoting this out of context kind of....makes it make absolutely no sense (as I was replying to someone's vitriol at "DPS people"):
1. I'm referring to people who waltz into an Advanced queue and put out 2k DPS. I have a science ship. I know how to use it (and love it!). If I only put out 2k DPS, I would be horribly apologetic for being mostly useless. Sorry, I didn't create the missions. I didn't make everything require "moar deeps." It's just how it is. No solution put to the players will help. None of us designed any of this. Timers= a certain amount of required DPS, sorry. No amount of crowd control rolls back the timer.
2. If you have no experience whatsoever in a mission (IE running an advanced version of something you've never even seen on Normal), you're at a distinct disadvantage. At best, you are clueless as to what to do. At worst, you're trolling or trying to get rewards off of someone else's effort.
3. If you "don't hate anything" why weigh in on something where I was specifically quoting someone who was? Not sure why you felt it applied to you.
4. You do understand that "tanking" requires a relatively high amount of DPS to hold aggro, right? I keep seeing this explained, but just because you have a zillion hull, doesn't make you an effective tank. Staying alive does not beat a STF, IIRC.
Shouldn't a sci ship that is doing low dps be healing, though? Just sayin'. If you're not healing, and not putting out much damage.....?