now on ISA, random 10k group, mind the equip did not change (got the Scimitar-only pets so the new price is 294248 for the entire build outside of Zen ships), no GDF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1uzJG8P6iA
It shows that if you build a ship with beams, get the proper weapontype and set power to weapons, its not overly difficult to beat ISA.
3. Why the hate for the higher DPS queues, with the whole expansion being about more power creep?
Just levelling to 60 will get you more dps. Just getting better weapons will get you more dps. Using the ship specializations, skills, and traits, will get you more dps. And you don't even have to acquire more skill for any of this.
I don't hate anything but i'll weigh in. A Sci or Engi build survives easier than a DPS'er, so if they make the mission simply who has more dps, it won't bother me running an engi build it'll bother people like those you are describing who have high dps and no tank or sci abilities.
We need a more creative solution like a mission element that requires a tank or sci ship, or some more benefits of them over just pure DPS.
-edit
To anyone saying if you can't run enough DPS you deserve to die on a mission, well it doesn't work that way, because I don't die, you do before me unless I am asleep.
Being mad at anyone doesn't help, suggesting solutions help. I'll cover your first point at the bottom quote as there is something you are missing.
Experience of the mission helps but not as much as you are inferring here. Experience in the ship build itself is vastly more helpful.
I don't hate anything but i'll weigh in. A Sci or Engi build survives easier than a DPS'er, so if they make the mission simply who has more dps, it won't bother me running an engi build it'll bother people like those you are describing who have high dps and no tank or sci abilities.
We need a more creative solution like a mission element that requires a tank or sci ship, or some more benefits of them over just pure DPS.
-edit
To anyone saying if you can't run enough DPS you deserve to die on a mission, well it doesn't work that way, because I don't die, you do before me unless I am asleep.
I agree 100% I get a chuckle when im in a stf with a dps guy and my sci ship is hitting 5,000 dps and this guy's yelling at me then starts to get one shoted and spends his time responding then starts screaming at me for a heal lol I love it
Being mad at anyone doesn't help, suggesting solutions help. I'll cover your first point at the bottom quote as there is something you are missing.
Experience of the mission helps but not as much as you are inferring here. Experience in the ship build itself is vastly more helpful.
I don't hate anything but i'll weigh in. A Sci or Engi build survives easier than a DPS'er, so if they make the mission simply who has more dps, it won't bother me running an engi build it'll bother people like those you are describing who have high dps and no tank or sci abilities.
We need a more creative solution like a mission element that requires a tank or sci ship, or some more benefits of them over just pure DPS.
-edit
To anyone saying if you can't run enough DPS you deserve to die on a mission, well it doesn't work that way, because I don't die, you do before me unless I am asleep.
Although quoting this out of context kind of....makes it make absolutely no sense (as I was replying to someone's vitriol at "DPS people"):
1. I'm referring to people who waltz into an Advanced queue and put out 2k DPS. I have a science ship. I know how to use it (and love it!). If I only put out 2k DPS, I would be horribly apologetic for being mostly useless. Sorry, I didn't create the missions. I didn't make everything require "moar deeps." It's just how it is. No solution put to the players will help. None of us designed any of this. Timers= a certain amount of required DPS, sorry. No amount of crowd control rolls back the timer.
2. If you have no experience whatsoever in a mission (IE running an advanced version of something you've never even seen on Normal), you're at a distinct disadvantage. At best, you are clueless as to what to do. At worst, you're trolling or trying to get rewards off of someone else's effort.
3. If you "don't hate anything" why weigh in on something where I was specifically quoting someone who was? Not sure why you felt it applied to you.
4. You do understand that "tanking" requires a relatively high amount of DPS to hold aggro, right? I keep seeing this explained, but just because you have a zillion hull, doesn't make you an effective tank. Staying alive does not beat a STF, IIRC.
I agree 100% I get a chuckle when im in a stf with a dps guy and my sci ship is hitting 5,000 dps and this guy's yelling at me then starts to get one shoted and spends his time responding then starts screaming at me for a heal lol I love it
Shouldn't a sci ship that is doing low dps be healing, though? Just sayin'. If you're not healing, and not putting out much damage.....?
Although quoting this out of context kind of....makes it make absolutely no sense (as I was replying to someone's vitriol at "DPS people"):
1. I'm referring to people who waltz into an Advanced queue and put out 2k DPS. I have a science ship. I know how to use it (and love it!). If I only put out 2k DPS, I would be horribly apologetic for being mostly useless. Sorry, I didn't create the missions. I didn't make everything require "moar deeps." It's just how it is. No solution put to the players will help. None of us designed any of this. Timers= a certain amount of required DPS, sorry. No amount of crowd control rolls back the timer.
2. If you have no experience whatsoever in a mission (IE running an advanced version of something you've never even seen on Normal), you're at a distinct disadvantage. At best, you are clueless as to what to do. At worst, you're trolling or trying to get rewards off of someone else's effort.
3. If you "don't hate anything" why weigh in on something where I was specifically quoting someone who was? Not sure why you felt it applied to you.
4. You do understand that "tanking" requires a relatively high amount of DPS to hold aggro, right? I keep seeing this explained, but just because you have a zillion hull, doesn't make you an effective tank. Staying alive does not beat a STF, IIRC.
3) I don't need to 'hate things' to comment
1) No amount of us designed any of this? I hate to break it to you but it's cause and effect, and when it isn't you get an outcry like you are seeing on the forum currently.
2) Yes but it barely takes a few missions to get the hang of it. I stand by the point that it takes a lot longer to become competent with your own build and ship.
4) 50/50. It requires decent AOE on many maps more than straight DPS. It also doesn't require a dps'ers dps, it requires a tankers dps with increased threat but this is so obvious I don't know why I have to post it.
You do touch on the point of my post there though. Tankers and Sci ships need more use in missions, and thusly a buff.
-edit I realise you were quoting someone else, but the points either stand on their own or not. Who they are directed to has no bearing on their relative merits.
1) No amount of us designed any of this? I hate to break it to you but it's cause and effect, and when it isn't you get an outcry like you are seeing on the forum currently.
2) Yes but it barely takes a few missions to get the hang of it. I stand by the point that it takes a lot longer to become competent with your own build and ship.
4) 50/50. It requires decent AOE on many maps more than straight DPS. It also doesn't require a dps'ers dps, it requires a tankers dps with increased threat but this is so obvious I don't know why I have to post it.
You do touch on the point of my post there though. Tankers and Sci ships need more use in missions, and thusly a buff.
-edit I realise you were quoting someone else, but the points either stand on their own or not. Who they are directed to has no bearing on their relative merits.
1. First, to be clear, I don't have "high DPS." I think my last ISA was under 18k. What % are you assuming are doing massive DPS, thus "causing" a complete rebalancing of the game around them? The outcry is that the Developers changed the queues. And, to be honest, IMO it's because of the power creep that came with the new expansion.
2. How is someone getting the hang of it with a horrible build? If they see that they're struggling (or failing), why go to advanced, unless they're specifically trying to get people to earn rewards for them?
3. If I tell someone that their hatred is misdirected, I'm not sure why someone without any would feel compelled to comment. Someone is spewing it because they deem it necessary. If that is the case, at least use the correct target.
4. Even without ridiculous DPS, I very often (read: almost always) grab aggro from someone who is "tanking." If someone is doing 5x the damage as you, it will happen. If it is so obvious, why do so many "tanks" hover around 3-5k DPS and think they're doing great ("I'm tanking")?
If someone obviously is looking for an outlet for his/her/its hate, and I tell them where it's best directed, it really has nothing to do with someone not in a similar state. Do sci/tank ships need a buff? I don't think so. I think the missions need rearranging. There are ways to do things to not require DPS only, but, from what is being said by the devs, they aren't there yet. More buffs just add to the power creep and the problem, IMO.
1. First, to be clear, I don't have "high DPS." I think my last ISA was under 18k. What % are you assuming are doing massive DPS, thus "causing" a complete rebalancing of the game around them? The outcry is that the Developers changed the queues. And, to be honest, IMO it's because of the power creep that came with the new expansion.
2. How is someone getting the hang of it with a horrible build? If they see that they're struggling (or failing), why go to advanced, unless they're specifically trying to get people to earn rewards for them?
3. If I tell someone that their hatred is misdirected, I'm not sure why someone without any would feel compelled to comment. Someone is spewing it because they deem it necessary. If that is the case, at least use the correct target.
4. Even without ridiculous DPS, I very often (read: almost always) grab aggro from someone who is "tanking." If someone is doing 5x the damage as you, it will happen. If it is so obvious, why do so many "tanks" hover around 3-5k DPS and think they're doing great ("I'm tanking")?
If someone obviously is looking for an outlet for his/her/its hate, and I tell them where it's best directed, it really has nothing to do with someone not in a similar state. Do sci/tank ships need a buff? I don't think so. I think the missions need rearranging. There are ways to do things to not require DPS only, but, from what is being said by the devs, they aren't there yet. More buffs just add to the power creep and the problem, IMO.
1) I am not assuming anything. I do see more tac officers than anything in PVE, there is a reason for it, which you highlight in other points, and which i've already spoken about. If the game is starting to revolve around DPS then logically, you'll get more people speccing for DPS, and the best for that are tactical characters not engineers.
2) Two things here: A) you learn by your mistakes, even and especially the best people at anything have made a lot of mistakes along the way. Your 'best build' is subjective and only highlighting the overall point, Sci and Engineers need a boost or better yet more roles and utility in the mission to achieve a more balanced 'best build' all around.
3) I am telling you why I commented. I looked at your points, and disagreed with some of them, it has nothing to do with you personally and doesn't involve 'hate'. I think you are misunderstanding the word, hate implies:
Definition:
Feel intense dislike, feel aversion towards, feel revulsion towards, feel hostile towards, be repelled by, be revolted by, regard with disgust, not be able to bear/stand, be unable to stomach, find intolerable, shudder at, recoil from, shrink from;
I feel none of those things toward your post or you. You trying to tell me why I commented is a bit humorous, and likely to lead nowhere.
4) You're only proving my point here that tanks need a buff to threat gen, or dps'ers need a cap to threat gen. We are not so far apart in our views. People do grab aggro off me but not often.
Aggro in STO works on damage and threat generation. Damage is much, much, much easier to do than threat - even at max threat, a Tank needs to kick out 15k and beyond if they want to draw aggro away from say, a 30-40k DPSer.
Anyone bringing a "Tank" with no threat generation that only does 5k as so many supposed Tank players do is just hindering team performance.
And anyway, STO state of play means if the DPSer is competent they will bring enough heals and play well enough to not get killed. As the old maxim goes, if the tank dies it is the healer's fault, if the healer dies it is the tank's fault, if the DPSer dies it is their own frakking fault.
The PvE content in STO of course only wants one of these for its completion, and that is a separate issue.
...
We need a more creative solution like a mission element that requires a tank or sci ship, or some more benefits of them over just pure DPS.
...
They have done such things in the past and recently. Players, atleast in the PuG's I have experienced, fail those more often.
Borg Disconnected Advanced does not require you to destroy a single enemy ship. I can solo a location and rescue as they spawn. Over half of the runs fail before the undine even show up. The other half before the voth show up. Azure Nebula doesn't require DPS, Starbase Blockade is another. That Spire voth mission is yet another.
In all honesty, cannot decide whether these types of videos are supposed to be useful or, horn blowing?
As a casual, F2P type who will, on occasion, farm dil for zen; I see these and shrug them off. If you would like to teach folks then you need to use the T5 free ships, set them up (non-fleet/non-rep), and show what to do, how to do, and, when to do.
I, occasionally, run with some folks from a couple established fleets and, well...90% of the time, they forget that I (or, others) don't run these often, and do not know the sequence, the best order, or much of anything else. The flip side is that if I inadvertently TRIBBLE something up; they don't get mad but, that is when the 'Oh, we thought you knew how to do this?'...my answer, nearly every time is that they go too fast, and either A) It's over and I actually learned nothing or, I make a mistake, blow an optional (because of A).
That said, there are videos out there that can/do help. But, for many folks (myself included) they only help so much until we actually do it, preferably several times, to get it down.
I stopped reading about here in the thread. But this is me exactly. I fly an Odyssey (T5-U) because I like it and I farmed dil to get both it and the upgrade token. I have never bought zen.
I do about 3.5k DPS (last time I checked). Do I want to raise that? Yes, I do but I'm not ever going to be able to afford fleet stuff, nor will I pay for keys to get lockbox or lobi stuff. My only hope to get better gear is to craft it myself (which I'm working on).
I would like to see these guy try loading up a T5 ship with stuff a casual player could get and see what their DPS is. I'm not against these guys doing 50k DPS, I'm just wondering how well a causal player could do without spending zen or farming for weeks.
now on ISA, random 10k group, mind the equip did not change (got the Scimitar-only pets so the new price is 294248 for the entire build outside of Zen ships), no GDF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1uzJG8P6iA
It shows that if you build a ship with beams, get the proper weapontype and set power to weapons, its not overly difficult to beat ISA.
buying the equipment for 300k EC, granted, its a Zen Ship, but you also have one ;D Biggest issue is romulans being kinda stronger (which we dont fully benefit from). And we get 2 consoles that come off of zen ships, but thats basically what ur asking for..
Keep in mind, you dont even need to do half of the damage, that should make up for all that basically.
I stopped reading about here in the thread. But this is me exactly. I fly an Odyssey (T5-U) because I like it and I farmed dil to get both it and the upgrade token. I have never bought zen.
I do about 3.5k DPS (last time I checked). Do I want to raise that? Yes, I do but I'm not ever going to be able to afford fleet stuff, nor will I pay for keys to get lockbox or lobi stuff. My only hope to get better gear is to craft it myself (which I'm working on).
I would like to see these guy try loading up a T5 ship with stuff a casual player could get and see what their DPS is. I'm not against these guys doing 50k DPS, I'm just wondering how well a causal player could do without spending zen or farming for weeks.
Ooo, at least 3x 3.5k - Oddys as standard, just boffs etc. are all 10k plus flown correctly - we can set you up fairly simply to at least triple your 3.5k, for relatively little to no investment.
(Your issue is most likely in Boff seating, skill layout, and piloting, not in equipment.)
Hey look, it's concrete proof that the new Difficultly level is aimed solely at Romulan Tactical captains with an overabundance of Dilithium.
Given that every other ISA i've been in has failed due to lack of high-DPS ships, it further reinforces the idea that other ships may as well not be in the game.
You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
I stopped reading about here in the thread. But this is me exactly. I fly an Odyssey (T5-U) because I like it and I farmed dil to get both it and the upgrade token. I have never bought zen.
I do about 3.5k DPS (last time I checked). Do I want to raise that? Yes, I do but I'm not ever going to be able to afford fleet stuff, nor will I pay for keys to get lockbox or lobi stuff. My only hope to get better gear is to craft it myself (which I'm working on).
I would like to see these guy try loading up a T5 ship with stuff a casual player could get and see what their DPS is. I'm not against these guys doing 50k DPS, I'm just wondering how well a causal player could do without spending zen or farming for weeks.
Why can't you afford fleet stuff?
It's not expensive in the least. You do fleet missions, some defari ground, turn in the marks. Do your free weekly doff missions and turn in the whites. Turn your greens to whites in conversion at starfleet academy, turn those into fleet projects. In 2-3 days easily you can get both the dilithium and the credit to be able to buy a fleet tactical console.
An investment of time into effectively grinding to provide yourself the assets to be able to improve your performance then turns things on its nose.
Even now, doing a full tour in 30 minutes of Borg junk with a 20k+ per player group nets the entire day's worth of dilithium and then some. That's what the DPS brings you, the fact that the grind isn't as much of one now, since you can condense the fights due to overwhelming force.
And actually, pre-DR I believe there was a video where some of the bored high DPS'ers in the game all blue'd out their ships and still pwned everything.
Basically, you state you want to improve yet refuse to actually take any steps towards accomplishing the goal you just set. I literally cannot fathom that thought process.
buying the equipment for 300k EC, granted, its a Zen Ship, but you also have one ;D Biggest issue is romulans being kinda stronger (which we dont fully benefit from). And we get 2 consoles that come off of zen ships, but thats basically what ur asking for..
Keep in mind, you dont even need to do half of the damage, that should make up for all that basically.
best regards
First off love the music epic sax guy ftw.
Second its really no suprise 4 scimitars even armed with white/green weapons can do that much dps. The Scimitar is the king of dps and t5u made it even stronger.
Third organized groups can not be compared to pug queue groups you are playing with other people that know how to build a proper ship and with the current way apb works that is huge since most pug groups you get in will not have apb stacking.
Now what would be impressive is taking a free tier 5 ship or even a mirror universe ship equip it with no zen consoles and limit yourself to say 500k ec and go and do a pug advanced queue and carry it to victory.
1) I am not assuming anything. I do see more tac officers than anything in PVE, there is a reason for it, which you highlight in other points, and which i've already spoken about. If the game is starting to revolve around DPS then logically, you'll get more people speccing for DPS, and the best for that are tactical characters not engineers.
2) Two things here: A) you learn by your mistakes, even and especially the best people at anything have made a lot of mistakes along the way. Your 'best build' is subjective and only highlighting the overall point, Sci and Engineers need a boost or better yet more roles and utility in the mission to achieve a more balanced 'best build' all around.
3) I am telling you why I commented. I looked at your points, and disagreed with some of them, it has nothing to do with you personally and doesn't involve 'hate'. I think you are misunderstanding the word, hate implies:
Definition:
Feel intense dislike, feel aversion towards, feel revulsion towards, feel hostile towards, be repelled by, be revolted by, regard with disgust, not be able to bear/stand, be unable to stomach, find intolerable, shudder at, recoil from, shrink from;
I feel none of those things toward your post or you. You trying to tell me why I commented is a bit humorous, and likely to lead nowhere.
4) You're only proving my point here that tanks need a buff to threat gen, or dps'ers need a cap to threat gen. We are not so far apart in our views. People do grab aggro off me but not often.
I'm not sure you are understanding what I have been saying. I never said you hate anything. Quite the opposite, actually. I'm not even sure why you keep speaking to replies to someone else, other than to try and be contrary.
Now what would be impressive is taking a free tier 5 ship or even a mirror universe ship equip it with no zen consoles and limit yourself to say 500k ec and go and do a pug advanced queue and carry it to victory.
I agree with this.
Honestly, this is a video (or series of videos) I would much more enjoy. Not saying that it isn't interesting to see the ridiculous DPS, but I'd like to see more "substandard build" videos. I know I've seen a few, and they were great.
I also think these types of things would be exponentially more helpful to people thinking "I can't because I don't have the resources."
Ooo, at least 3x 3.5k - Oddys as standard, just boffs etc. are all 10k plus flown correctly - we can set you up fairly simply to at least triple your 3.5k, for relatively little to no investment.
(Your issue is most likely in Boff seating, skill layout, and piloting, not in equipment.)
Why not just post a well written guide on the forums for all to see? Would seem a better way to help all people than all this silly segregated channels nonsense. This is the only game I have ever seen where the top builds aren't stickied at the top of a forum for them.
Why not just post a well written guide on the forums for all to see? Would seem a better way to help all people than all this silly segregated channels nonsense. This is the only game I have ever seen where the top builds aren't stickied at the top of a forum for them.
See the thread above you mate...
When we post these builds we just get flamed for supposedly being "Elitist"; claimed to be liars, because when the person saying we are liars used these builds, they did much less than it and it couldn't possibly be the way they were playing; and most players will just ignore the advice anyway.
And anyway, STO state of play means if the DPSer is competent they will bring enough heals and play well enough to not get killed. As the old maxim goes, if the tank dies it is the healer's fault, if the healer dies it is the tank's fault, if the DPSer dies it is their own frakking fault.
The PvE content in STO of course only wants one of these for its completion, and that is a separate issue.
It seems to be the issue, all sides of the same issue, which you can see nerfing dps (the most played class) caused a heck of an outcry. Whereas making tanks/sci more appealing would have done the same thing, as less dps would be in open play.
It just would have been a sneaky way to do it through the back door . This to me is the main issue, we are starting to get one played class more and more, which of course causes an imbalance in the game.
NB More appealing can be achieved in a variety of ways, all this is the main point I was trying to get across.
It seems to be the issue, all sides of the same issue, which you can see nerfing dps (the most played class) caused a heck of an outcry. Whereas making tanks/sci more appealing would have done the same thing, as less dps would be in open play.
It just would have been a sneaky way to do it through the back door . This to me is the main issue, we are starting to get one played class more and more, which of course causes an imbalance in the game.
NB More appealing can be achieved in a variety of ways, all this is the main point I was trying to get across.
.
The content is built around pure killing stuff in STO. Is it any wonder people choose to play the class most suited to the content?
there are written guides on reddit and some of the subforums.
The major issue is, a 'not-as-much" experienced player in this game can't tell apart if a guide has good or bad contents. Most of the stuff in this game is not intuitiv, so how are you supposed to know?
The content is built around pure killing stuff in STO. Is it any wonder people choose to play the class most suited to the content?
This is a more complicated question than you are making out. I could just say no, and that i've agreed with this throughout my posting but let's try to make my post here more worthwhile.
1 - What abilities could a sci or engi have that would cater to this style of gameplay?
2 - What ways could gameplay be expanded to give sci or engi's more of a role?
3 - How currently with what we have now, can sci or engi's remain useful to a DPS team?
That's a start. With one class becoming prominent, you're going to have imbalances, it's really as simple as that in a 3 class game.
Sci and engis can do high dps with cruisers and more offensive sciships/Carriers. They bring with them the ability to tank more or use CC (GW,TR), and they can build themselves more for offense, as their captains abilities are defensive. A engineer on a Ody can tank hell and do 20k in pugs. A sci in a attrox can do the same while he CCs the enemies like they are toys (AoE disable with TR3+high flowcaps, GW) and do 17-20k in a pug. A vesta is likely to do more dps, while it also caters the ability to Heal and GW/TR.
The problem of most ppl is "I fly a cruiser, and should use inferior abilities (aceton beam...)" or "I fly a sciship, I only heal", while it is quite easy to make something dps+ X. If you are on a sci-ship with limited tac abilities, a torpedoboat is the way to go. "But shieldres..." doesnt matter, bleedthrough and secondary effects (I use on my attrox Gravtorp, Rom hyperplasma, Breen cluster) compensates, and then you are there with TR3 to disables entire mobs of spheres and normal cubes. While you might not be able to disable a tac cubes, they grow far weaker (in offense as in defense).
The key is simply to think outside the box. Especially that (f***ed) up trinity thinking hast to stop. It is rigid and, bluntly, stupid. Trinity means being dependent on other, and that is just a very stupid, weak, lifestyle.
Let me start with there was some nice info in here overall woodwhity that I enjoyed and I think you'll help people sharing this kind of stuff. I wanted to put that out there so you don't think i'm picking apart the content, the content was great.
The problem of most ppl is "I fly a cruiser, and should use inferior abilities (aceton beam...)" or "I fly a sciship, I only heal", while it is quite easy to make something dps+ X.
Inferior is the problem, there shouldn't be an 'inferior' certainly not by large margins in a balanced set of classes. I use aceton as I tank, and it's one of my damage reducing abilities to me personally.
Some people do like to heal and support in an MMO, that's what they enjoy doing, so they do it.
The key is simply to think outside the box. Especially that (f***ed) up trinity thinking hast to stop. It is rigid and, bluntly, stupid.
Trinity means being dependent on other, and that is just a very stupid, weak, lifestyle.
Lifestyle? I don't think that's really the word you want to use, as it implies a lot of other things, and would take us a long way off topic. If it is, we can discuss lifestyle and interdependence if you want though.
Let's go with team, as it applies a bit more to the game. In an MMO or multiplayer game, no matter how limited the class focus or build, or whatever, you are still dependent on other people doing well for the team to do well.
paareth, what you are looking for does not exist in STO. There is no need for the Trinity (and IMO, nor should there be, it is an outdated and pointless system anywhere, let alone in a Star Trek game) in STO PvE.
It is just a bag of hitpoints and a timer to kill said bag of hitpoints. Thus, anyone bringing a healboat or a tank is just a detriment to the team's completion of the content.
The game was only ever specced for DPS. All that is different post DR is you now need to be vaguely useful as a player to do said minimum DPS, whereas before a shuttle could put out enough DPS to do STO PvE, so people in 2k DPS failboats didn't matter.
Thing is not everyone plays to DPS, some play to heal, some to tank.
As I stated, those are not mutually exclusive.
Especially a tank is dependend on is own dps, and thats how it works in every game. If the healer draws to much heal-aggro or the dps-er does too much dps, the tank has to counter it with dps*threat.
The problem with trinity system is that it is so highly artificial, ppl think it should work that way. The tank just magically becomes a tank, with abilities to draw a vast amount of aggro. That is stupid. Especially when you get those abilities predefined from a skilltree.
Here you have to think how to do it. While in trinity the tank is a meatshield with magical aggro draw (aside from dps), here it is something which -while also magically being boosted by threat control- is far more scientific. Sure, you still dont do the dps of the high-dpser (which any sane enemy would attack first, and if that wouldnt help, the "healer") you just look more threatful, but with substance (3k dps cant hold aggro against a standard 30k-40k player, no matter how many doffs, gear, and skillpoints you invest). You dont just klick on a button and say "i am a tank", you must really work to get there. E.g. if you want to do something really well here, you must go on the drawing board.
I played rift for sometime, where trinity is at least partially enforced, and found the skillsystem just stupid. Klicking "I am tank" and for every few levels you get passives and abilities for tanks. Without any need to think about how to use it. Here you need to consider synergies from gear, doffs, boffs, and skillset (and playstyle), which also gives you the ability to do anything in this game with any career. Sure, a tac wont be as good of a tank as a engineer (and will waste lots of dps to compensate), but he also can be a undying tank, while doing dps. Engineer has it easier though, he comes from tanking and can sacrifice a good amount of robustness for dps before he even recognices the enemies as a threat for his ship.
Oh yeah, the keyword in this game is synergies. Manage them well, and a sci can do 20k+ while healing and CCing. Or dont, and be someone with 1k, and laughable heal and cc. Thas is STO.
I implemented a mentoring programm within my fleet, though I dont reinforce it (e.g. I advertise it, but it is not a requirement... which somehow hurts my elitists pride ). But I wont do anything of that in the forums (in a big guide), because I have already seen so many discussion about dps, heal, tank and co that I can make a very eduacated guess thats its not worth my time.
But I wont do anything of that in the forums (in a big guide), because I have already seen so many discussion about dps, heal, tank and co that I can make a very eduacated guess thats its not worth my time.
Comments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1uzJG8P6iA
It shows that if you build a ship with beams, get the proper weapontype and set power to weapons, its not overly difficult to beat ISA.
no 4 Scimitars, 1 Recluse.. better?:)
best regards
RyanSTO
Being mad at anyone doesn't help, suggesting solutions help. I'll cover your first point at the bottom quote as there is something you are missing.
Experience of the mission helps but not as much as you are inferring here. Experience in the ship build itself is vastly more helpful.
I don't hate anything but i'll weigh in. A Sci or Engi build survives easier than a DPS'er, so if they make the mission simply who has more dps, it won't bother me running an engi build it'll bother people like those you are describing who have high dps and no tank or sci abilities.
We need a more creative solution like a mission element that requires a tank or sci ship, or some more benefits of them over just pure DPS.
-edit
To anyone saying if you can't run enough DPS you deserve to die on a mission, well it doesn't work that way, because I don't die, you do before me unless I am asleep.
I agree 100% I get a chuckle when im in a stf with a dps guy and my sci ship is hitting 5,000 dps and this guy's yelling at me then starts to get one shoted and spends his time responding then starts screaming at me for a heal lol I love it
Although quoting this out of context kind of....makes it make absolutely no sense (as I was replying to someone's vitriol at "DPS people"):
1. I'm referring to people who waltz into an Advanced queue and put out 2k DPS. I have a science ship. I know how to use it (and love it!). If I only put out 2k DPS, I would be horribly apologetic for being mostly useless. Sorry, I didn't create the missions. I didn't make everything require "moar deeps." It's just how it is. No solution put to the players will help. None of us designed any of this. Timers= a certain amount of required DPS, sorry. No amount of crowd control rolls back the timer.
2. If you have no experience whatsoever in a mission (IE running an advanced version of something you've never even seen on Normal), you're at a distinct disadvantage. At best, you are clueless as to what to do. At worst, you're trolling or trying to get rewards off of someone else's effort.
3. If you "don't hate anything" why weigh in on something where I was specifically quoting someone who was? Not sure why you felt it applied to you.
4. You do understand that "tanking" requires a relatively high amount of DPS to hold aggro, right? I keep seeing this explained, but just because you have a zillion hull, doesn't make you an effective tank. Staying alive does not beat a STF, IIRC.
Shouldn't a sci ship that is doing low dps be healing, though? Just sayin'. If you're not healing, and not putting out much damage.....?
3) I don't need to 'hate things' to comment
1) No amount of us designed any of this? I hate to break it to you but it's cause and effect, and when it isn't you get an outcry like you are seeing on the forum currently.
2) Yes but it barely takes a few missions to get the hang of it. I stand by the point that it takes a lot longer to become competent with your own build and ship.
4) 50/50. It requires decent AOE on many maps more than straight DPS. It also doesn't require a dps'ers dps, it requires a tankers dps with increased threat but this is so obvious I don't know why I have to post it.
You do touch on the point of my post there though. Tankers and Sci ships need more use in missions, and thusly a buff.
-edit I realise you were quoting someone else, but the points either stand on their own or not. Who they are directed to has no bearing on their relative merits.
1. First, to be clear, I don't have "high DPS." I think my last ISA was under 18k. What % are you assuming are doing massive DPS, thus "causing" a complete rebalancing of the game around them? The outcry is that the Developers changed the queues. And, to be honest, IMO it's because of the power creep that came with the new expansion.
2. How is someone getting the hang of it with a horrible build? If they see that they're struggling (or failing), why go to advanced, unless they're specifically trying to get people to earn rewards for them?
3. If I tell someone that their hatred is misdirected, I'm not sure why someone without any would feel compelled to comment. Someone is spewing it because they deem it necessary. If that is the case, at least use the correct target.
4. Even without ridiculous DPS, I very often (read: almost always) grab aggro from someone who is "tanking." If someone is doing 5x the damage as you, it will happen. If it is so obvious, why do so many "tanks" hover around 3-5k DPS and think they're doing great ("I'm tanking")?
If someone obviously is looking for an outlet for his/her/its hate, and I tell them where it's best directed, it really has nothing to do with someone not in a similar state. Do sci/tank ships need a buff? I don't think so. I think the missions need rearranging. There are ways to do things to not require DPS only, but, from what is being said by the devs, they aren't there yet. More buffs just add to the power creep and the problem, IMO.
1) I am not assuming anything. I do see more tac officers than anything in PVE, there is a reason for it, which you highlight in other points, and which i've already spoken about. If the game is starting to revolve around DPS then logically, you'll get more people speccing for DPS, and the best for that are tactical characters not engineers.
2) Two things here: A) you learn by your mistakes, even and especially the best people at anything have made a lot of mistakes along the way.
3) I am telling you why I commented. I looked at your points, and disagreed with some of them, it has nothing to do with you personally and doesn't involve 'hate'. I think you are misunderstanding the word, hate implies:
Definition:
Feel intense dislike, feel aversion towards, feel revulsion towards, feel hostile towards, be repelled by, be revolted by, regard with disgust, not be able to bear/stand, be unable to stomach, find intolerable, shudder at, recoil from, shrink from;
I feel none of those things toward your post or you. You trying to tell me why I commented is a bit humorous, and likely to lead nowhere.
4) You're only proving my point here that tanks need a buff to threat gen, or dps'ers need a cap to threat gen. We are not so far apart in our views. People do grab aggro off me but not often.
Anyone bringing a "Tank" with no threat generation that only does 5k as so many supposed Tank players do is just hindering team performance.
And anyway, STO state of play means if the DPSer is competent they will bring enough heals and play well enough to not get killed. As the old maxim goes, if the tank dies it is the healer's fault, if the healer dies it is the tank's fault, if the DPSer dies it is their own frakking fault.
The PvE content in STO of course only wants one of these for its completion, and that is a separate issue.
They have done such things in the past and recently. Players, atleast in the PuG's I have experienced, fail those more often.
Borg Disconnected Advanced does not require you to destroy a single enemy ship. I can solo a location and rescue as they spawn. Over half of the runs fail before the undine even show up. The other half before the voth show up. Azure Nebula doesn't require DPS, Starbase Blockade is another. That Spire voth mission is yet another.
I stopped reading about here in the thread. But this is me exactly. I fly an Odyssey (T5-U) because I like it and I farmed dil to get both it and the upgrade token. I have never bought zen.
I do about 3.5k DPS (last time I checked). Do I want to raise that? Yes, I do but I'm not ever going to be able to afford fleet stuff, nor will I pay for keys to get lockbox or lobi stuff. My only hope to get better gear is to craft it myself (which I'm working on).
I would like to see these guy try loading up a T5 ship with stuff a casual player could get and see what their DPS is. I'm not against these guys doing 50k DPS, I'm just wondering how well a causal player could do without spending zen or farming for weeks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGp-uhCqPBA
buying the equipment for 300k EC, granted, its a Zen Ship, but you also have one ;D Biggest issue is romulans being kinda stronger (which we dont fully benefit from). And we get 2 consoles that come off of zen ships, but thats basically what ur asking for..
Keep in mind, you dont even need to do half of the damage, that should make up for all that basically.
best regards
Ooo, at least 3x 3.5k - Oddys as standard, just boffs etc. are all 10k plus flown correctly - we can set you up fairly simply to at least triple your 3.5k, for relatively little to no investment.
(Your issue is most likely in Boff seating, skill layout, and piloting, not in equipment.)
Given that every other ISA i've been in has failed due to lack of high-DPS ships, it further reinforces the idea that other ships may as well not be in the game.
Why can't you afford fleet stuff?
It's not expensive in the least. You do fleet missions, some defari ground, turn in the marks. Do your free weekly doff missions and turn in the whites. Turn your greens to whites in conversion at starfleet academy, turn those into fleet projects. In 2-3 days easily you can get both the dilithium and the credit to be able to buy a fleet tactical console.
An investment of time into effectively grinding to provide yourself the assets to be able to improve your performance then turns things on its nose.
Even now, doing a full tour in 30 minutes of Borg junk with a 20k+ per player group nets the entire day's worth of dilithium and then some. That's what the DPS brings you, the fact that the grind isn't as much of one now, since you can condense the fights due to overwhelming force.
And actually, pre-DR I believe there was a video where some of the bored high DPS'ers in the game all blue'd out their ships and still pwned everything.
Basically, you state you want to improve yet refuse to actually take any steps towards accomplishing the goal you just set. I literally cannot fathom that thought process.
First off love the music epic sax guy ftw.
Second its really no suprise 4 scimitars even armed with white/green weapons can do that much dps. The Scimitar is the king of dps and t5u made it even stronger.
Third organized groups can not be compared to pug queue groups you are playing with other people that know how to build a proper ship and with the current way apb works that is huge since most pug groups you get in will not have apb stacking.
Now what would be impressive is taking a free tier 5 ship or even a mirror universe ship equip it with no zen consoles and limit yourself to say 500k ec and go and do a pug advanced queue and carry it to victory.
Because with a full tactical team is Easier and faster.
Only dps matter in this game
I'm not sure you are understanding what I have been saying. I never said you hate anything. Quite the opposite, actually. I'm not even sure why you keep speaking to replies to someone else, other than to try and be contrary.
I agree with this.
Honestly, this is a video (or series of videos) I would much more enjoy. Not saying that it isn't interesting to see the ridiculous DPS, but I'd like to see more "substandard build" videos. I know I've seen a few, and they were great.
I also think these types of things would be exponentially more helpful to people thinking "I can't because I don't have the resources."
Why not just post a well written guide on the forums for all to see? Would seem a better way to help all people than all this silly segregated channels nonsense. This is the only game I have ever seen where the top builds aren't stickied at the top of a forum for them.
See the thread above you mate...
When we post these builds we just get flamed for supposedly being "Elitist"; claimed to be liars, because when the person saying we are liars used these builds, they did much less than it and it couldn't possibly be the way they were playing; and most players will just ignore the advice anyway.
Thus, we put these guides elsewhere where dealing with these forums is not an issue. Such as: http://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds
From there you can find what we do, why we do it, and what makes it work.
It seems to be the issue, all sides of the same issue, which you can see nerfing dps (the most played class) caused a heck of an outcry. Whereas making tanks/sci more appealing would have done the same thing, as less dps would be in open play.
It just would have been a sneaky way to do it through the back door
NB More appealing can be achieved in a variety of ways, all this is the main point I was trying to get across.
If something is quoted to me and I feel contrary to it, I'll reply to it... I don't sit there and think today I'll be contrary to this person.
People can reply to things on a forum, even without being originally quoted.
The content is built around pure killing stuff in STO. Is it any wonder people choose to play the class most suited to the content?
The major issue is, a 'not-as-much" experienced player in this game can't tell apart if a guide has good or bad contents. Most of the stuff in this game is not intuitiv, so how are you supposed to know?
Sarcasm has pretty concise ones, if you dont need the exact time but how build the watch: (way to much detail)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9ocZfZAHJk&list=PLMuD-YI-u3TnphAERG7O1R4oeMivCnrTB
This is a more complicated question than you are making out. I could just say no, and that i've agreed with this throughout my posting but let's try to make my post here more worthwhile.
1 - What abilities could a sci or engi have that would cater to this style of gameplay?
2 - What ways could gameplay be expanded to give sci or engi's more of a role?
3 - How currently with what we have now, can sci or engi's remain useful to a DPS team?
That's a start. With one class becoming prominent, you're going to have imbalances, it's really as simple as that in a 3 class game.
The problem of most ppl is "I fly a cruiser, and should use inferior abilities (aceton beam...)" or "I fly a sciship, I only heal", while it is quite easy to make something dps+ X. If you are on a sci-ship with limited tac abilities, a torpedoboat is the way to go. "But shieldres..." doesnt matter, bleedthrough and secondary effects (I use on my attrox Gravtorp, Rom hyperplasma, Breen cluster) compensates, and then you are there with TR3 to disables entire mobs of spheres and normal cubes. While you might not be able to disable a tac cubes, they grow far weaker (in offense as in defense).
The key is simply to think outside the box. Especially that (f***ed) up trinity thinking hast to stop. It is rigid and, bluntly, stupid. Trinity means being dependent on other, and that is just a very stupid, weak, lifestyle.
Thing is not everyone plays to DPS, some play to heal, some to tank.
Inferior is the problem, there shouldn't be an 'inferior' certainly not by large margins in a balanced set of classes. I use aceton as I tank, and it's one of my damage reducing abilities to me personally.
Some people do like to heal and support in an MMO, that's what they enjoy doing, so they do it.
Lifestyle? I don't think that's really the word you want to use, as it implies a lot of other things, and would take us a long way off topic. If it is, we can discuss lifestyle and interdependence if you want though.
Let's go with team, as it applies a bit more to the game. In an MMO or multiplayer game, no matter how limited the class focus or build, or whatever, you are still dependent on other people doing well for the team to do well.
It is just a bag of hitpoints and a timer to kill said bag of hitpoints. Thus, anyone bringing a healboat or a tank is just a detriment to the team's completion of the content.
The game was only ever specced for DPS. All that is different post DR is you now need to be vaguely useful as a player to do said minimum DPS, whereas before a shuttle could put out enough DPS to do STO PvE, so people in 2k DPS failboats didn't matter.
As I stated, those are not mutually exclusive.
Especially a tank is dependend on is own dps, and thats how it works in every game. If the healer draws to much heal-aggro or the dps-er does too much dps, the tank has to counter it with dps*threat.
The problem with trinity system is that it is so highly artificial, ppl think it should work that way. The tank just magically becomes a tank, with abilities to draw a vast amount of aggro. That is stupid. Especially when you get those abilities predefined from a skilltree.
Here you have to think how to do it. While in trinity the tank is a meatshield with magical aggro draw (aside from dps), here it is something which -while also magically being boosted by threat control- is far more scientific. Sure, you still dont do the dps of the high-dpser (which any sane enemy would attack first, and if that wouldnt help, the "healer") you just look more threatful, but with substance (3k dps cant hold aggro against a standard 30k-40k player, no matter how many doffs, gear, and skillpoints you invest). You dont just klick on a button and say "i am a tank", you must really work to get there. E.g. if you want to do something really well here, you must go on the drawing board.
I played rift for sometime, where trinity is at least partially enforced, and found the skillsystem just stupid. Klicking "I am tank" and for every few levels you get passives and abilities for tanks. Without any need to think about how to use it. Here you need to consider synergies from gear, doffs, boffs, and skillset (and playstyle), which also gives you the ability to do anything in this game with any career. Sure, a tac wont be as good of a tank as a engineer (and will waste lots of dps to compensate), but he also can be a undying tank, while doing dps. Engineer has it easier though, he comes from tanking and can sacrifice a good amount of robustness for dps before he even recognices the enemies as a threat for his ship.
Oh yeah, the keyword in this game is synergies. Manage them well, and a sci can do 20k+ while healing and CCing. Or dont, and be someone with 1k, and laughable heal and cc. Thas is STO.
I implemented a mentoring programm within my fleet, though I dont reinforce it (e.g. I advertise it, but it is not a requirement... which somehow hurts my elitists pride
Very much your last sentence IME...