paareth, what you are looking for does not exist in STO. There is no need for the Trinity (and IMO, nor should there be, it is an outdated and pointless system anywhere, let alone in a Star Trek game) in STO PvE.
You already have a trinity, it's just not being a trinity anymore.
It is just a bag of hitpoints and a timer to kill said bag of hitpoints. Thus, anyone bringing a healboat or a tank is just a detriment to the team's completion of the content.
Tough really, I run a engineer build that's what I use. I put the best weapons I can find on there but that's it, that's how I play. With my tact officer I play DPS, playing DPS with an engineer makes no sense at all as they can't put out the same amount.
So again I come back to Engineers and Healers needing a Buff to their various support abilities.
The game was only ever specced for DPS. All that is different post DR is you now need to be vaguely useful as a player to do said minimum DPS, whereas before a shuttle could put out enough DPS to do STO PvE, so people in 2k DPS failboats didn't matter.
I put out enough DPS to usually get 2-3rd on the crystaline advanced mission with 1 year old gear I am upgrading, it wasn't peak gear then but it was okay. I am not an elite DPS'er by any means as I run a tanking build, I won't change that for anyone, my point is however that you can handle the content just fine running a tank build.
It should be noted in AOE missions I don't top the list by a long shot, just single target missions where I can move in close and not be bothered what's hitting me.
As I stated, those are not mutually exclusive.
Especially a tank is dependend on is own dps, and thats how it works in every game. If the healer draws to much heal-aggro or the dps-er does too much dps, the tank has to counter it with dps*threat.
Except they are mutually exclusive. Are you seriously telling me in a game that is becoming so focused on DPS that the other two classes are not at a disadvantage, I won't go to the numbers as I am not that guy, but I find extremely hard to believe an engineer player can put out the same DPS as a tactical officer.
So thusly again, engineers either need a buff to their support abilities or for us to say to hell with it, let's make all 3 classes DPS focused, in fact ditch classes altogether then.
I saw this happen with battlestar galactica online, one ship class (Big) outperformed everything else and people just ended up playing a big ship, when the game was originally based around fighters.
Here it's happened in the extreme the other way around, escorts with tactical officers outperform everything, if you can't see that as a problem, I don't know what to say. Startrek was about people working together to achieve an end from a variety of backgrounds, skillsets and abilities.
The problem with trinity system is that it is so highly artificial, ppl think it should work that way. The tank just magically becomes a tank, with abilities to draw a vast amount of aggro. That is stupid. Especially when you get those abilities predefined from a skilltree.
This is a game, everything is artificial.
If you want me to pick out different tanking situations that happened in the series I could do that all day, if that's what you are really asking here.
Here you have to think how to do it. While in trinity the tank is a meatshield with magical aggro draw (aside from dps), here it is something which -while also magically being boosted by threat control- is far more scientific. Sure, you still dont do the dps of the high-dpser (which any sane enemy would attack first, and if that wouldnt help, the "healer") you just look more threatful, but with substance (3k dps cant hold aggro against a standard 30k-40k player, no matter how many doffs, gear, and skillpoints you invest). You dont just klick on a button and say "i am a tank", you must really work to get there. E.g. if you want to do something really well here, you must go on the drawing board.
Any half decent tank, of which i've done a lot of in various games, as well as healers will tell you, you are talking nonesense.
You have to think a lot to heal well in many games, you have to think a lot to tank well in many games. Sure maybe some MMO's have tried to dumb it down to a point and click level, and STO isn't there, but that's those MMO's game design fault not the fact a trinity exists or doesn't exist.
I played rift for sometime, where trinity is at least partially enforced, and found the skillsystem just stupid. Klicking "I am tank" and for every few levels you get passives and abilities for tanks.
Without any need to think about how to use it. Here you need to consider synergies from gear, doffs, boffs, and skillset (and playstyle), which also gives you the ability to do anything in this game with any career. Sure, a tac wont be as good of a tank as a engineer (and will waste lots of dps to compensate), but he also can be a undying tank, while doing dps. Engineer has it easier though, he comes from tanking and can sacrifice a good amount of robustness for dps before he even recognices the enemies as a threat for his ship.
I agree that STO has greater detail than rift, this applies to all aspects of the customisation of your build. However n the one hand you are saying we don't need tanks, and on the other you are saying people can spec as a tank. Why would they bother? Why would anyone playing an engineer right now bother to pick the class in your vision of the game and how it should progress?
Oh yeah, the keyword in this game is synergies. Manage them well, and a sci can do 20k+ while healing and CCing. Or dont, and be someone with 1k, and laughable heal and cc. Thas is STO.
Yeah I'm not bad on synergies, still nobodies getting me out of my tanking chair, either the game can cater to it or not, I can handle advanced missions and I play as a tank that's it.
People can play the game anyway they want, if it makes the content too hard for a certain class, and you hear people moaning about it, something is wrong, either with the abilities or the entire class system if we go by your definition of how to play.
Yeah I'm not bad on synergies, still nobodies getting me out of my tanking chair, either the game can cater to it or not, I can handle advanced missions and I play as a tank that's it. .
See, this is all I need to know about you to know you are not worth time and effort - you are refusing to accept basic facts about the game, and expect the game to be built around "mah playstylez!!!11!!!"
I sometimes wonder what the 2k DPS people are doing in the single-player-only Episodes. If they arent here to do damage, do they berate the enemies to death?
As an aside, I seriously don't see the disdain for the "DPS Community." I completely ignored it until recently (just because of disinterest), but the amount of information offered on the DPS channels is insane, and I have not seen anyone being condescending about it. Not even a little. I'm a little bit miffed at myself for not looking into it before.
I always wondered about these crazy low time claims for these missions. I watched this after watching their Korfez video to see what I did wrong in the final stage.
They skipped killing all of the spheres. Certainly saves 2 or 3 min there. The takedown of that tac cube is remarkably fast! It's quite impressive.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I put out enough DPS to usually get 2-3rd on the crystaline advanced mission with 1 year old gear I am upgrading, it wasn't peak gear then but it was okay. I am not an elite DPS'er by any means as I run a tanking build, I won't change that for anyone, my point is however that you can handle the content just fine running a tank build.
Didnt you know: Any half-decent scishipcaptain, or in that regard also cruisercaptain, should come out on top, as heal is far more important for placing in CC then damage. Of course a Romulan with DPS+valdore console can easily steal the show. You can make 3 times the damage then other, if they outheal you far less then 3 times, they win.
Except they are mutually exclusive. Are you seriously telling me in a game that is becoming so focused on DPS that the other two classes are not at a disadvantage, I won't go to the numbers as I am not that guy, but I find extremely hard to believe an engineer player can put out the same DPS as a tactical officer.
Maybe not the same, but if built well, the ratio is <2. But this is while the engineer still can cater high tanking abilities, which might not be needed, but taking the heat of others is still possible. You dont NEED a tank, but you can very well play a DPS-Tank. HSE is a prime example for use of a tank, as the mission (first parts) goes far faster as nobody else has any survivability problems. On the other hand of course you can do it without if quite well, still, its easier with it. But you dont have to use one, and that is a very good thing.
Especially in a pug a well build engineer can do pretty much the same as a well built tactical char with identical ships, less then 1.4 ration. Why? because the engineer can sacrifice far more tankiness on gear- and BO-Level thwn the tactical. And dps suffers extremely when you die. The difference in dps comes only if the mission is short, because then the Spike of Tacticians can become their dps. Then you got a real ratio between them. But if it takes longer (especially with pugs), they can come pretty close, because the engineer can cater a higher continouus DPS (due to efficiently using overcapping). And that is while the engineer still has good taking abilities.
Here it's happened in the extreme the other way around, escorts with tactical officers outperform everything, if you can't see that as a problem, I don't know what to say. Startrek was about people working together to achieve an end from a variety of backgrounds, skillsets and abilities.
The Dominion war was won by Ships shooting. Medics and engineers in battle were only their to patch the ships and crew, but only on their ships. So basically we have the same is star trek here: self-sufficient ships and crews.
They only helped each other when the battle was over. And on ground they also shot when engaging in battle, medics only healed behind the lines (at least not in the front row). Engineers shot too, and only repaired thing when needed or after the battle.
Two fun-facts:
-Escorts online was 2012. The time escorts reign supreme in PvE has long since ended, they are now mostly second class ships.
-Engineers on ground own tacticals in pve in harder mission. Both offensive as defensive. And Sci makes wonderful dps-debuffers. Tacticals are only good for their supportskills in a well setup team.
See, this is all I need to know about you to know you are not worth time and effort - you are refusing to accept basic facts about the game, and expect the game to be built around "mah playstylez!!!11!!!"
Just another special snowflake.
Yes I like to play as I like to play. There are three classes, have a read of them, three. Not just you, in your class, in your particular playstyle. Guess what, not everyone is an exact replica of you.
-edit difference is, I don't label you something to make my point of view look more important, you must get a kick off it, great for you eh?
----
To start Woodwhity I like you mate , you do know more about the game than me, that much is obvious. Escorts online was when I left the game in late 2013, so I will bow out to your knowledge of pvp now and go play it, and see what happens in a cruiser. If it’s other cruisers or battlecruisers wrecking me great, I’ll love it will actually learn something. I never mind losing a balanced fight.
Didnt you know: Any half-decent scishipcaptain, or in that regard also cruisercaptain, should come out on top, as heal is far more important for placing in CC then damage. Of course a Romulan with DPS+valdore console can easily steal the show. You can make 3 times the damage then other, if they outheal you far less then 3 times, they win.
I did not as I’ve never talked to a sci captain who could out do a DPS’er when it comes to rewards. I am sure they exist, do you think that is the norm? Or do you think that player is good? I am inclined to think a sci captain needs exceptional skill to be on the level of any half decent DPS’er from PVE rewards, which is another problem. Again showing you and me the imbalance. This is ignoring the white elephant in the room, the engineer, who gets screwed on both counts.
As an engi I am not great, in that one mission, I just exploit the fact I can sit close to a big thing for cannon damage, and not have to move much, while making good use of my abilities and build (such as knowing when to AOE).
Maybe not the same, but if built well, the ratio is <2. But this is while the engineer still can cater high tanking abilities, which might not be needed, but taking the heat of others is still possible. You dont NEED a tank, but you can very well play a DPS-Tank. HSE is a prime example for use of a tank, as the mission (first parts) goes far faster as nobody else has any survivability problems. On the other hand of course you can do it without if quite well, still, its easier with it. But you dont have to use one, and that is a very good thing.
Less than 2, so I am assuming half? Otherwise I apologize I don’t know what you mean. No there is no reason to roll an engineering character now, none over a dps’er unless you want an easy game at the expense of your team. That is a problem, if the game has gone beyond, around, through, whatever to trinity, then engineers need a boost in another area, specifically (as I’ve said through this thread) support skills.
I suggest, as was done in numerous startrek episodes, the ability to take fire for another ship.
The difference in dps comes only if the mission is short, because then the Spike of Tacticians can become their dps. Then you got a real ratio between them. But if it takes longer (especially with pugs), they can come pretty close, because the engineer can cater a higher continouus DPS (due to efficiently using overcapping). And that is while the engineer still has good taking abilities.
What you are saying is, for newbs roll the engineer for an easier game, for everyone else roll a tactical officer. Sorry this isn’t good enough, engineers need a boost to be on a par with DPS through the entire game, even if that is just to give engineers more DPS, if that is the pervading playstyle and thought process.
The Dominion war was won by Ships shooting. Medics and engineers in battle were only their to patch the ships and crew, but only on their ships. So basically we have the same is star trek here: self-sufficient ships and crews.
They only helped each other when the battle was over. And on ground they also shot when engaging in battle, medics only healed behind the lines (at least not in the front row). Engineers shot too, and only repaired thing when needed or after the battle.
The dominion war was won with:
Large fleet actions
Manoeuvring, being out manoeuvered.
Pushing through... engineering trait anyone?
Actions behind enemy lines.
Taking fire for other ships
Undercover operations
Intelligence Agencies.
Teamwork
Engineering to ready the technologies.
Minefields
Diplomacy
EVERY Single action that lead up to it previously.
Every single personal sacrifice of every character on that show – that is what soliders go through, not just one battle and you are done. That isn’t how it works.
Did you watch any of the battles where ships moved in front of other ships to shield them?
Did you watch the numerous episodes of starships or science officers saving the day with unique technologies or discoveries? – That was almost every show.
-Engineers on ground own tacticals in pve in harder mission. Both offensive as defensive. And Sci makes wonderful dps-debuffers. Tacticals are only good for their supportskills in a well setup team.
If that is true, then it is also imbalanced. I don’t play ground as it has no appeal to me.
Comments
You already have a trinity, it's just not being a trinity anymore.
Tough really, I run a engineer build that's what I use. I put the best weapons I can find on there but that's it, that's how I play. With my tact officer I play DPS, playing DPS with an engineer makes no sense at all as they can't put out the same amount.
So again I come back to Engineers and Healers needing a Buff to their various support abilities.
I put out enough DPS to usually get 2-3rd on the crystaline advanced mission with 1 year old gear I am upgrading, it wasn't peak gear then but it was okay. I am not an elite DPS'er by any means as I run a tanking build, I won't change that for anyone, my point is however that you can handle the content just fine running a tank build.
It should be noted in AOE missions I don't top the list by a long shot, just single target missions where I can move in close and not be bothered what's hitting me.
Except they are mutually exclusive. Are you seriously telling me in a game that is becoming so focused on DPS that the other two classes are not at a disadvantage, I won't go to the numbers as I am not that guy, but I find extremely hard to believe an engineer player can put out the same DPS as a tactical officer.
So thusly again, engineers either need a buff to their support abilities or for us to say to hell with it, let's make all 3 classes DPS focused, in fact ditch classes altogether then.
I saw this happen with battlestar galactica online, one ship class (Big) outperformed everything else and people just ended up playing a big ship, when the game was originally based around fighters.
Here it's happened in the extreme the other way around, escorts with tactical officers outperform everything, if you can't see that as a problem, I don't know what to say. Startrek was about people working together to achieve an end from a variety of backgrounds, skillsets and abilities.
This is a game, everything is artificial.
If you want me to pick out different tanking situations that happened in the series I could do that all day, if that's what you are really asking here.
Any half decent tank, of which i've done a lot of in various games, as well as healers will tell you, you are talking nonesense.
You have to think a lot to heal well in many games, you have to think a lot to tank well in many games. Sure maybe some MMO's have tried to dumb it down to a point and click level, and STO isn't there, but that's those MMO's game design fault not the fact a trinity exists or doesn't exist.
I agree that STO has greater detail than rift, this applies to all aspects of the customisation of your build. However n the one hand you are saying we don't need tanks, and on the other you are saying people can spec as a tank. Why would they bother? Why would anyone playing an engineer right now bother to pick the class in your vision of the game and how it should progress?
Yeah I'm not bad on synergies, still nobodies getting me out of my tanking chair, either the game can cater to it or not, I can handle advanced missions and I play as a tank that's it.
People can play the game anyway they want, if it makes the content too hard for a certain class, and you hear people moaning about it, something is wrong, either with the abilities or the entire class system if we go by your definition of how to play.
See, this is all I need to know about you to know you are not worth time and effort - you are refusing to accept basic facts about the game, and expect the game to be built around "mah playstylez!!!11!!!"
Just another special snowflake.
Tactical: Damage + MORE damage.
Science: Damage + Heals + Buffs + Debuffs.
Engineer: Damage + Heals + Tanking + Threat generation.
I see it as more variety than "Trinity" nonsense.
As an aside, I seriously don't see the disdain for the "DPS Community." I completely ignored it until recently (just because of disinterest), but the amount of information offered on the DPS channels is insane, and I have not seen anyone being condescending about it. Not even a little. I'm a little bit miffed at myself for not looking into it before.
They skipped killing all of the spheres. Certainly saves 2 or 3 min there. The takedown of that tac cube is remarkably fast! It's quite impressive.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Didnt you know: Any half-decent scishipcaptain, or in that regard also cruisercaptain, should come out on top, as heal is far more important for placing in CC then damage. Of course a Romulan with DPS+valdore console can easily steal the show. You can make 3 times the damage then other, if they outheal you far less then 3 times, they win.
Maybe not the same, but if built well, the ratio is <2. But this is while the engineer still can cater high tanking abilities, which might not be needed, but taking the heat of others is still possible. You dont NEED a tank, but you can very well play a DPS-Tank. HSE is a prime example for use of a tank, as the mission (first parts) goes far faster as nobody else has any survivability problems. On the other hand of course you can do it without if quite well, still, its easier with it. But you dont have to use one, and that is a very good thing.
Especially in a pug a well build engineer can do pretty much the same as a well built tactical char with identical ships, less then 1.4 ration. Why? because the engineer can sacrifice far more tankiness on gear- and BO-Level thwn the tactical. And dps suffers extremely when you die. The difference in dps comes only if the mission is short, because then the Spike of Tacticians can become their dps. Then you got a real ratio between them. But if it takes longer (especially with pugs), they can come pretty close, because the engineer can cater a higher continouus DPS (due to efficiently using overcapping). And that is while the engineer still has good taking abilities.
The Dominion war was won by Ships shooting. Medics and engineers in battle were only their to patch the ships and crew, but only on their ships. So basically we have the same is star trek here: self-sufficient ships and crews.
They only helped each other when the battle was over. And on ground they also shot when engaging in battle, medics only healed behind the lines (at least not in the front row). Engineers shot too, and only repaired thing when needed or after the battle.
Two fun-facts:
-Escorts online was 2012. The time escorts reign supreme in PvE has long since ended, they are now mostly second class ships.
-Engineers on ground own tacticals in pve in harder mission. Both offensive as defensive. And Sci makes wonderful dps-debuffers. Tacticals are only good for their supportskills in a well setup team.
Yes I like to play as I like to play. There are three classes, have a read of them, three. Not just you, in your class, in your particular playstyle. Guess what, not everyone is an exact replica of you.
-edit difference is, I don't label you something to make my point of view look more important, you must get a kick off it, great for you eh?
----
To start Woodwhity I like you mate
I did not as I’ve never talked to a sci captain who could out do a DPS’er when it comes to rewards. I am sure they exist, do you think that is the norm? Or do you think that player is good? I am inclined to think a sci captain needs exceptional skill to be on the level of any half decent DPS’er from PVE rewards, which is another problem. Again showing you and me the imbalance. This is ignoring the white elephant in the room, the engineer, who gets screwed on both counts.
As an engi I am not great, in that one mission, I just exploit the fact I can sit close to a big thing for cannon damage, and not have to move much, while making good use of my abilities and build (such as knowing when to AOE).
Less than 2, so I am assuming half? Otherwise I apologize I don’t know what you mean. No there is no reason to roll an engineering character now, none over a dps’er unless you want an easy game at the expense of your team. That is a problem, if the game has gone beyond, around, through, whatever to trinity, then engineers need a boost in another area, specifically (as I’ve said through this thread) support skills.
I suggest, as was done in numerous startrek episodes, the ability to take fire for another ship.
A PUG is a very random event, just to preface this reply with, it has as many variables as you can think of.
I don’t see many DPS’ers die in PVE, and at the upper end, no hardly ever.
What you are saying is, for newbs roll the engineer for an easier game, for everyone else roll a tactical officer. Sorry this isn’t good enough, engineers need a boost to be on a par with DPS through the entire game, even if that is just to give engineers more DPS, if that is the pervading playstyle and thought process.
The dominion war was won with:
Large fleet actions
Manoeuvring, being out manoeuvered.
Pushing through... engineering trait anyone?
Actions behind enemy lines.
Taking fire for other ships
Undercover operations
Intelligence Agencies.
Teamwork
Engineering to ready the technologies.
Minefields
Diplomacy
EVERY Single action that lead up to it previously.
Every single personal sacrifice of every character on that show – that is what soliders go through, not just one battle and you are done. That isn’t how it works.
Did you watch any of the battles where ships moved in front of other ships to shield them?
Did you watch the numerous episodes of starships or science officers saving the day with unique technologies or discoveries? – That was almost every show.
I could go on but that is enough.
If that is true, then it is also imbalanced. I don’t play ground as it has no appeal to me.