and both game have exploration something star trek has always been about but here is sto its all about arcade shoot um up game dont know about you but i came here to seek out new life and new civilizations to boldly go where no one has gone before
STO has not had exploration for nearly 5 years. People are still here, so obviously exploration is not important to everyone.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
STO has not had exploration for nearly 5 years. People are still here, so obviously exploration is not important to everyone.
and yet in 4 year not 5 till feb 2 2015 all you get is fleet grind 5 min grind mission rep 5 min grind mission ya sto has not a thing to worry about but you get what you pay for
and yet in 4 year not 5 till feb 2 2015 all you get is fleet grind 5 min grind mission rep 5 min grind mission ya sto has not a thing to worry about but you get what you pay for
Well, lucky for you Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous are on the horizon and you will have more options besides just Eve.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
It is quite ironic when you consider that Capitalism is a complete Ponzi Scheme at this point on this planet. The government suppresses energy technology so it can keep us all on their "grid" even swat teaming anyone brazen enough to drink raw milk, organic gardens or have solar panels and wind mills.
The only jobs left under this "capitalism" are as prison guards, police, baby killers (soldiers), IRS agents, defense contractors. There is very little made for human beings to use, its all about slavery and war.
lmao dont count on it i be more worry about your sto when both game will have what is that thing been missing from sto from the start that other thing called immersion 2 thing sto has and never will have
Actually, this is another area where I think Cryptic have done quite well; keep it casual. Instead of trying to compete with EVE's all-encompassing, life-devouring universe, they've kept STO accessible to a very casual playerbase attracted by the IP (and are specifically trying to continue doing so through DR). While I've never played EVE, the main criticism levelled against it seems to be that it has no "casual mode".
I play STO because I can play a Klingon. I have never been tempted by another MMORPG. Does this make me a narrow minded dullard? Perhaps, but I like to think that most people do not judge on the basis on MMORPG choice. Are there others like me out there? Only Cryptic's stats can hope to tell.
So let start because i just realize people know how read but don't know how understand what they read :
I never but really never say or want everything right know for free, in fact i like the rep system. i just talk about the fact the game have less and less contents and make more and more long time farming stuff for pouch people to pay more and more. I just talk about the cash politic made buy cryptic and point the fact normal subscription system work good enough for other company
And just about Eve the price depend of the kind of ship like if it's a frigate, cruiser .... and the giant cruiser you talk about are very specific ships and not meant for a single player but for very big and special space battle so 99% of the time you can't/don't want/don't need it.
So it's okay if I tell you that you don't need upgraded ships or Tier 6 ships, because it's only for special players that do PvP or want to achieve new DPS values, and you don't need them 99 % of the time?
Anyway, what I wrote is exactly the internal thought process I've been going through. So I can't afford to upgrade all my main alts and their ships straight away? It may take months of grinding, but so what - as I said, anything else is self-imposed pressure. Cryptic / PWE are certainly not *making* me spend money or time on their game, apart from enjoying playing it.
And of course - "grinding" means - playing the game. What would you do if there was no grind?
Would you play the game, or would you not play the game? And if the latter... why not just not subscribe to the grind and get out? If the former, why is it so bad that you have to play the game to earn rewards?
If you don't want grind, you probably want more story content or something like that. But think of how long it took go get through the Legacy of Romulus content. That was the biggest content updates they ever made (at least until Delta Rising is out).
So, let's think away Tier 6 ships, Tier 5 Upgrades, Mark XIII and Mark XIV Epics. If the devs didn't spend any time on that, how many extra missions could that generate? Let's say that would double the amount of content (which is unlikely, it would be far less). You think that would be enough to keep you "subscribed" for a year? That you would keep plaiyng the game if you have done all those missions, but there was no new gear grind, no new ships? What would you spend money for? What amount of money would Cryptic have to ask for such a content upgrade per player willing to pay to get their investment back?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
and both game have exploration something star trek has always been about but here is sto its all about arcade shoot um up game dont know about you but i came here to seek out new life and new civilizations to boldly go where no one has gone before
Question: how many episodes of Voyager (especially later on) devolved into "the bad guy dies." (answer: quite a few)
Star Trek has the stated idealism of "exploration" and a few episodes that try to realize it, but really what it was in fact was a 20th century sci-fi television show that tried to cater to the interest of the viewer as much as possible. Bodly going often took a back seat to character drama (most of all) and space battles.
STO does the same. Different format, different audience, different result (combat focus, welcome to video games my friend), same IP and still appropriate. This is how a Star Trek MMO evolves given its social environment.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Question: how many episodes of Voyager (especially later on) devolved into "the bad guy dies." (answer: quite a few)
Star Trek has the stated idealism of "exploration" and a few episodes that try to realize it, but really what it was in fact was a 20th century sci-fi television show that tried to cater to the interest of the viewer as much as possible. Bodly going often took a back seat to character drama (most of all) and space battles.
STO does the same. Different format, different audience, different result (combat focus, welcome to video games my friend), same IP and still appropriate. This is how a Star Trek MMO evolves given its social environment.
what was Voyager doing while on its way home ???? seeking out what? doing what?
These people work for a company that expects a profit. Greed is not some new thing they ambushed us with. Ask Quark why greed is good.
The thing here that bothers me most is that Devs have stated ships are space map characters but they are treating them like expendable items. We paid time/money for those characters and they are being relegated to second/third best with no T6 upgrade path. I have no problem with a grind in mmo games. Grinding is after all something to do. I do have a problem with my characters being obsolesced. The very clear cut comparison chart released days after the x-pac announcement has me hopping mad. T5u is not only inadequate from a marketing standpoint, it makes no sense in a highly advanced technically modular civilization fantasy. They wouldn't even be having this problem if they had implemented Bridge Officer stations as upgradeable items during development like the panels advised.
To those saying "You don't HAVE to upgrade, or (insert smug adversarial TRIBBLE)" of course we don't. What we do have to do is decide whether we CAN deal with mothballing our old ships/gear so our peers won't look down their noses at us in fleet actions. And that is the bottom line here. Social pressure is a major motivating factor in these games. If it didn't matter we would be playing some single person game.
Most people will suck it up and grind if that's what it takes, but when they go after our character/avatar it is a deal breaker. We trust that our characters will have a difficult path to glory, and if that path leads to a scrapyard we have a problem.
and both game have exploration something star trek has always been about but here is sto its all about arcade shoot um up game dont know about you but i came here to seek out new life and new civilizations to boldly go where no one has gone before
I have yet t wonder how that exploration will work out.
Is it just about "Look, a new source for Unabtonium. Quick, make your claim and turn on the drill?".
Exploration in Star Trek shows was often about meeting aliens or weird lifeforms or new space anomalies and interacting in a meaningful way with them. Say, escape the anomaly, comvince the weird lifeform that you meant no harm.
Nothing you can actually generated procedurally, certainly not without becoming repetitive or silly. "Oh, look, another Space Amoeba!" You may be able procedurally generate a cool vista to look at, and maybe place some rocks to mine, but is that really interesting and engaging in the long run?
And "scripted" Exploration exists in Startrek Online, even if you ignore the Foundry completely. The whole Dyson Arc contains a lot of exploration - from discovering the whole Dyson Sphere in the first place to exploring the Solar Station. There is a lot of exploration on New Romulus.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
In all honestly, nothing in STO requires spending actual money. Everything....mostly everything, can be got via earning currency in game and then turning it into Zen to buy stuff.
They cater for everyone, the rich whales, the impatient and the smart sensible player.
You just need to choose which one of those you want to be...
indeed, also i feel its not so much pay to win as pay to win quicker.
you will still be able to do all the story lines stf type stuff and such that DR has to offer in that free event ship you got last christmas or the one you get next christmas for newer players, with a free upgrade to T5u you will be all set with any weapons you have picked up in game.
you may take a few minutes longer to kill that nasty then the guy with the T6 ship and all the top gear that have cost him a small fortune and you may not get the top score in a stf type event but who cares its still fun none the less.
and if there is somthing in the store that you want save up your dil and convert to zen, you may find the exchange rate drop with the gear upgrade thing on the go.
I have yet t wonder how that exploration will work out.
Is it just about "Look, a new source for Unabtonium. Quick, make your claim and turn on the drill?".
Exploration in Star Trek shows was often about meeting aliens or weird lifeforms or new space anomalies and interacting in a meaningful way with them. Say, escape the anomaly, comvince the weird lifeform that you meant no harm.
Nothing you can actually generated procedurally, certainly not without becoming repetitive or silly. "Oh, look, another Space Amoeba!" You may be able procedurally generate a cool vista to look at, and maybe place some rocks to mine, but is that really interesting and engaging in the long run?
And "scripted" Exploration exists in Startrek Online, even if you ignore the Foundry completely. The whole Dyson Arc contains a lot of exploration - from discovering the whole Dyson Sphere in the first place to exploring the Solar Station. There is a lot of exploration on New Romulus.
i have said in another thread even with the exploration clusters gone there is still loads to explore in sto, apart from all the story missions you also have all the pve events, loads of encounter events, all of the foundry stuff plus all the differant star systems that can be visited and accolades to earn, i have been playing sto 3 years and there is still loads i havent accomplished yet.
and they are adding new stuff all the time.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
dont have to tell me just got my 75$ Avenger and next month plan to join the 75$ beta also for ED
And you're calling STO greedy? The should pay players to Beta test. Star Citizen has a few red flags for me, especially the "donation" way they try to avoid tax laws.
what was Voyager doing while on its way home ???? seeking out what? doing what?
If so why take so many pit stops? Well naturaly to fill out the format of a 90's sci-fi TV show complete with villians, character drama, shoot-em-up space battles, thrills, chills, and the rest of what people tuned in for every week.
It wasn't a documentary contemplating the challenges of crossing the galaxy. It entertainment mixed with small a bit of idealism to try to invoke a few other mental proccesses than "Weeeeeeee" (though still largely based in modern social conventions, not free-minded exploration.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
And you're calling STO greedy? The should pay players to Beta test. Star Citizen has a few red flags for me, especially the "donation" way they try to avoid tax laws.
one im backing star citizen and with that 75$ purchase i get 2 game squadron 42 and star citizen oh and Aeroview Hangar Digital Game Soundtrack Starting Money: 2,000 UEC 6 Month Insurance Beta Access Digital Star Map ED im just getting a beta to see if i like it next time do some research
So it's okay if I tell you that you don't need upgraded ships or Tier 6 ships, because it's only for special players that do PvP or want to achieve new DPS values, and you don't need them 99 % of the time?
Actually - yes . This is precisely what Cryptic have been doing, by making it clear that large parts of the new content don't require T5U / T6 ships, which I assume is so that low-budget players realise they can still play.
The point is this; PVP aside, *why* does it matter that your ship / gear / skill levels are not absolutely maxed out? Answer - it doesn't, apart from the OCD gamer impulse that pushes a lot of us onwards. T5U with all Mk XII gear will be plenty for all of the new content; there will be no more game to play if you've got more gear than that. Once you set an axiom of "it doesn't matter about being top-of-the-line", how much it costs to have a T6 ship with all gold gear becomes rather academic.
And of course - "grinding" means - playing the game. What would you do if there was no grind?
I tend to define grinding as "repeatedly playing the same part of the game for rewards". This can be fun - a few STFs to wind down at the end of the day - but the point is that it's not novel content (unlike PVP which is different every time).
Personally, when I hit "grind breaks" - the points at which I've completed the extant Rep and got all my alts to a satisfactory standard - that's when I start to do things like replay episodes or PVP.
Would you play the game, or would you not play the game? And if the latter... why not just not subscribe to the grind and get out? If the former, why is it so bad that you have to play the game to earn rewards?
That, I think, is the question every player needs to ask themselves before complaining about the grind level. It's very personal - what seems insane to me will be nothing to others, but I'm sure I seem like an addict to some casual players. Cryptic's unenviable task is to pitch the grind at a level where it keeps enough players interested.
If you don't want grind, you probably want more story content or something like that. But think of how long it took go get through the Legacy of Romulus content. That was the biggest content updates they ever made (at least until Delta Rising is out).
So, let's think away Tier 6 ships, Tier 5 Upgrades, Mark XIII and Mark XIV Epics. If the devs didn't spend any time on that, how many extra missions could that generate? Let's say that would double the amount of content (which is unlikely, it would be far less). You think that would be enough to keep you "subscribed" for a year? That you would keep plaiyng the game if you have done all those missions, but there was no new gear grind, no new ships? What would you spend money for? What amount of money would Cryptic have to ask for such a content upgrade per player willing to pay to get their investment back?
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As a pre-F2P player, I was happy to pay my £10/month to dip into the STO universe. However, I expect that PWE's monetization of the game is yielding far greater results than the subscription model ever did; not a bad thing as it means the game keeps going. I don't have a problem with grind per se; the key, as you say, is to find a level that is fun for your preferences and just accept that it will take time to get some of the best shinies doing so.
To those saying "You don't HAVE to upgrade, or (insert smug adversarial TRIBBLE)" of course we don't. What we do have to do is decide whether we CAN deal with mothballing our old ships/gear so our peers won't look down their noses at us in fleet actions. And that is the bottom line here. Social pressure is a major motivating factor in these games. If it didn't matter we would be playing some single person game.
Sir, that is by a mile the most rational statement I've seen on the subject. All I can offer is that I've recently been running a T5 ship with Mk X Blue gear through the full range of elite content (basically because it's a new alt, but I've been unwilling to expend Dil and EC in quantity until I know what's happening with DR) - and have experienced none of the negativity you describe, hopefully because the ship is logically designed and not stupidly flown.
Also, I don't think the game is necessarily up for T5U ships (especially Fleet ones) just yet. At the moment many T5Us will still enjoy better BOff seating, stronger hulls and an extra console over their T6 counterparts. Does that balance the extra Cdr ability? Perhaps, but we've had a number of 2 LTC ships before (Tempest, Vo'quv, Fleet Norgh) and they have not been gamebreakers. As for the special abilities and Intel slots? It remains to be seen. Only thing I can see is that Cryptic have stated that not all T6 ships will have Intel seating, so that suggests that there is some effort being made to balance Intel vs the more conventional specialisations. A lot of people have pointed to T6 Fleet ships being the nail in the coffin of T5U - but we have no idea what those will look like yet.
Sir, that is by a mile the most rational statement I've seen on the subject. All I can offer is that I've recently been running a T5 ship with Mk X Blue gear through the full range of elite content (basically because it's a new alt, but I've been unwilling to expend Dil and EC in quantity until I know what's happening with DR) - and have experienced none of the negativity you describe, hopefully because the ship is logically designed and not stupidly flown.
Also, I don't think the game is necessarily up for T5U ships (especially Fleet ones) just yet. At the moment many T5Us will still enjoy better BOff seating, stronger hulls and an extra console over their T6 counterparts. Does that balance the extra Cdr ability? Perhaps, but we've had a number of 2 LTC ships before (Tempest, Vo'quv, Fleet Norgh) and they have not been gamebreakers. As for the special abilities and Intel slots? It remains to be seen. Only thing I can see is that Cryptic have stated that not all T6 ships will have Intel seating, so that suggests that there is some effort being made to balance Intel vs the more conventional specialisations. A lot of people have pointed to T6 Fleet ships being the nail in the coffin of T5U - but we have no idea what those will look like yet.
IT certainly bothers me that Tier 5 Upgrade doesn't bring your ship to full Tier 6. I think a Lt.Cmdr power is a big deal. But I am at least nomimally interested in PvP, and I would still feel like I have the option to do PvP in my favourite Star Trek design (that I intentionally bought C-Store and FLeet Retrofits for ) and not feel gimped.
I think the whole "Tier 5 U" vs "Tier 6" is a terrible mistake. And it is certainly motivitad by monetary concern - the concern being that the new ships will not be enough to finance the new expansion, that people that used to spend money on ships are already content or saturated and don't buy a new ship. So they must offer something that costs full price and you can't have any other way. And that I dislike, and I think there would be better ways - and in fact, they already have implemented everything they needed for that with Intelligence BOs.
And if they add new Specialities, and don't give this specialities to older ships (but still upgrade them to everythnig else in equal power), they will probably still see good sales.
But all that doesn't change - if the game is too grindy for you, you should remember that the only thing everything you grind for allows you to do is play the game, and the grind is just playing the game. If you don't like that, then you ran into a trap - you play to get better at playing but you do not like playing - why play to get better at it? Play as much as you can still enjoy, not more. You don't need the hottest gear.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
These people work for a company that expects a profit. Greed is not some new thing they ambushed us with. Ask Quark why greed is good.
The thing here that bothers me most is that Devs have stated ships are space map characters but they are treating them like expendable items. We paid time/money for those characters and they are being relegated to second/third best with no T6 upgrade path. I have no problem with a grind in mmo games. Grinding is after all something to do. I do have a problem with my characters being obsolesced. The very clear cut comparison chart released days after the x-pac announcement has me hopping mad. T5u is not only inadequate from a marketing standpoint, it makes no sense in a highly advanced technically modular civilization fantasy. They wouldn't even be having this problem if they had implemented Bridge Officer stations as upgradeable items during development like the panels advised.
To those saying "You don't HAVE to upgrade, or (insert smug adversarial TRIBBLE)" of course we don't. What we do have to do is decide whether we CAN deal with mothballing our old ships/gear so our peers won't look down their noses at us in fleet actions. And that is the bottom line here. Social pressure is a major motivating factor in these games. If it didn't matter we would be playing some single person game.
Most people will suck it up and grind if that's what it takes, but when they go after our character/avatar it is a deal breaker. We trust that our characters will have a difficult path to glory, and if that path leads to a scrapyard we have a problem.
I think you need better fleetmates. Me and mine think the ausmonaughts are awesome for running estfs in tier 1 ships, and when we get a new member who is silver and can't afford a level 50 ship, we help them out, not mock them for flying a free40.
And there's plenty of solid mirror ships in estfs that are farther back hind a t5.5 than a 5u will be behind a t6.
You know i will maybe surprise you but when you have a job, a wife, childrens, dog ..... is hardly possible to even make 8000 per day so 3 toons during 2 weeks stop dreaming.
Infected Space elite will net you ~2500 dil. 960 for finishing 1500 for turning in the 150 marks for dil. Every third time turn in the bnps for 1000 dil. CCE will get you ~2000 per 960 for finishing turn in 100 marks for 1000 dil. So 4500 + 480 for the test =5000, go to Vtulga and that is 6k in maybe 30 minutes. If you got room for toons I'd recommend leveling some Klingons for marauding. The use the contraband on Fed toons. That is what I am doing. I like you have a family and commitments, this is why I am leveling KDF for bonus xp for my limited time.
Infected Space elite will net you ~2500 dil. 960 for finishing 1500 for turning in the 150 marks for dil. Every third time turn in the bnps for 1000 dil. CCE will get you ~2000 per 960 for finishing turn in 100 marks for 1000 dil. So 4500 + 480 for the test =5000, go to Vtulga and that is 6k in maybe 30 minutes. If you got room for toons I'd recommend leveling some Klingons for marauding. The use the contraband on Fed toons. That is what I am doing. I like you have a family and commitments, this is why I am leveling KDF for bonus xp for my limited time.
Also, try to save your reputation tier 5 rewards for turning in during the bonus dil weekends. That makes a huge difference, like a free 20k dil.
And there's plenty of solid mirror ships in estfs that are farther back hind a t5.5 than a 5u will be behind a t6.
yep, my mirror heavy cruisers :P
Social pressure is a major motivating factor in these games. If it didn't matter we would be playing some single person game.
are you a kid/teen?
i don't care about the others; i play first of all for myself, but in the stfs i do my best for the mission and for my teamates even if i don't have an
There has been an impressive field of game design that has been forming for awhile now. MMO's have generated many books worth of game design, economic, and even psychology.
There are ways to make games more "addictive". There are ways to lock people into grinds. Even the establishing of loot drop rates are tailored to a unique persistence in living brains that goes all the way back to rats frantically pushing levers that only reward a special treat "sometimes".
Now, while the design of MMO's has changed (and STO is even more unique yet given all the unique mechanics), there are still problems which people frequently argue about. I rarely come to the forums, but I hear about these things plenty whenever I make the mistake of paying attention to Zone chat.
"Pay to Win". Please do not dismiss this concept quite so quickly. Instead, simply consider whether it is still up to date. Pay to Win did not work out as well. It was too obvious, it gated too much genuine material, and grated with players the internet over. So it was changed. It's no longer pay to win, but the underlying mechanic has not been removed. I think it has become an unholy combination of "Pay to have fun", "pay to be complete", and "pay to be competitive".
As odd as those sound, let me explain: Much of the new C-store, lobi, and expensive dilithium stuff is just plain fun. I love my Mobius and since at the time I had no grinding experience it nearly killed me to get it. But I am have quite a bit of fun with it. I'd also like to try one of the new Xindi Narcine Carriers on an alt even though I don't know a darned thing about carriers simply because of how awesome it looks. For someone who isn't wallet-warrior and who doesn't know how to play the market or set up a multi-account dilithium refinery that's going to be quite a bit of effort for the sake of something "that looks nice".
When I say "pay to be complete" it refers not only to maxing out your gear but even simpler stuff. Most new and intermediate players will have a great deal of difficulty attempting to get skills distributed properly for a target end-game build while they're still trying to reach 50. Used to be, when you reached 50 you'd get a free captain re-training token. Now, you only get that if you're "gold" and if you're not, that's $5. All these little things, if you want to finish them, to set things straight, you're going to have to start paying either your money, or someone else's money.
As for the pay to be competitive, well that's easy. Though yes you can certainly do quite well in the PvE queue with the stuff you don't have to pay for one way or the other, there is a certain flair, a certain edge that isn't obvious but is still there that people with access to alot of C-store and lobi gear can develop. This is intentional. Not all the lobi and C-store stuff is awesome but it does closely tie in to the "having fun" and frankly some of it really does give you some nice advantages like my plasmionic leech + embassy flow caps console.
So please, whenever someone starts complaining about "Pay to Win" instead of getting snarky please keep in mind that it still exists, it has just evolved into something new. Something that is not as obvious and thus more difficult to point fingers at any one thing. Also keep in mind that this "technically you can get Zen without paying money for it, just get it off of the dil exchange" misses the point that somewhere, someone is still buying the Zen. It might not be your wallet, but it still originates from someone else's purchase.
As for the crafting system, it appears to be similar to lockboxes. It is a gamble. Not only is it a timegate (more on that later), but it is also a slot machine which means that those expensive and hard to grind supplies for the end-game gear will have to be gotten multiple times in "hopes" that they'll eventually cough out exactly what you want.
Do keep in mind that whenever gambling becomes involved, there is another saying not too far behind - the house always wins. There are reasons for this, and yet gambling still enraptures people so. This is a gray area, and it always will be. There will always be a delicate balance between interrupting the feel and enjoyment of the game vs. making the money needed to keep things in operating. As a playerbase we likely never will agree on where that proper balance is, so instead of trying just be mindful that it does appear to be going in a darker direction. The lockboxes alone earned STO a certain bit of infamy amongst the outsiders as a particularly brutal method of fleecing its playerbase. It is a very gray area. The research and development gamble in a continuation and may even be an attempt to refine the strategy further. Whether its lighter or darker gray we do not yet know.
As for time gates, I do believe that the people invoking that term might be aware of a legal case where one of those little shift colored blocks apps "games" for some smart phone was successfully litigated for false advertising. The game was advertised as "free to play" however in order to progress in a "timely and expected manner" you had to pay significant micro-transactions. If you didn't pay, the flow of the game was wrecked and several days worth of play time could be drawn out to some crazy amount. Though the game was technically playable, the level of interruption was ruled to be significant enough to make the game "unplayable". This is relevant in that draws the line saying that too much interruption to the game experience unless one pays micro-transactions starts to cross the shady line into "not quite as free as promised". This app however, was unique in the sheer brutality and unavoidability in which players were "pinched". STO does not "pinch" its players nearly as hard. Yes, you can buy Zen that other people played for, you can grind for weeks, months, or possibly even close to a full year to achieve your goals. And with regularly released content your wish list will never run out unless you happen to be unique personality type of a true stick in the mud. Or a non-trek fan. Either one. Or, with micro-transactions, you can start to speed that up.
Once again, by sitting more firmly in the gray area, it is more difficult to make accusations without leaving the person complaining vulnerable to rebuttal. However, this does not mean that all accusations are baseless or simply because the person in question does not conform to one of a few personality types. If you wish to invoke different playing styles and mentalities among players, than please be mindful of those who are valid players but don't have the exact ratios of time, money, and patience to snugly fit into STO's equations.
In short, MMO's have always had a dark history with money making. This has even spread to non-MMO's. As the "ferengi accountants" that people joke about start pushing every little opportunity that they can for a micro-transaction the player-base (and even external audiences) will push back. Things will end up in the gray and hopefully a subjective balance can be reached. It is the nature of such gray zones to lack the footing required to make unassailable statements from undisputed positions. As Riker once said, "Don't even try, you can't!" Instead, be mindful that you are arguing about a very complicated, detailed system that has a lot of room to be nice to players - and a lot of room to TRIBBLE them as well (possibly even both, simultaneously. These are not mutually exclusive concepts).
In order for the game to exist they have to be able to pay the bills. Before free to play this game was full of crashes and bugs. It almost got scraped. Now that it is free to play we can earn our way or pay now. We are lucky to have that option. So yea.. the grind is bad. Now that you can't earn the upgrades quickly it is worse. I don't agree with that part.
The content they are releasing.. some of it is not in line with Star Trek. If they release the same ship and weapons over and over again people will get bored. So they went outside the litter box and in some cases stained or warped the floor. :eek: Yes they make profit. The game would not exist if they didn't.
OP, the way I look at this is that Cryptic is no longer trying to sell a good game, they are simply exploiting ST fans for $$ now. Where are the gameplay elements that customers have been asking for? Instead of improving things like exploration and diplomacy, cryptic beancounters say it is cheaper to remove them. Any new gameplay elements are simple, cheap, repetitive things, its assembly line TRIBBLE like "another rep" for the most part. There is some new episodes coming, alright, but that is not repeatable content it is one-time content. No effort made at making or selling an immersive MMORPG anymore, its just $$ now.
You cant even make a thread asking for improvements to the Galaxy class without risking a ban.
There is no game, you are a cog in a cash register
OP, the way I look at this is that Cryptic is no longer trying to sell a good game, they are simply exploiting ST fans for $$ now. Where are the gameplay elements that customers have been asking for? Instead of improving things like exploration and diplomacy, cryptic beancounters say it is cheaper to remove them. Any new gameplay elements are simple, cheap, repetitive things, its assembly line TRIBBLE like "another rep" for the most part. There is some new episodes coming, alright, but that is not repeatable content it is one-time content. No effort made at making or selling an immersive MMORPG anymore, its just $$ now.
You cant even make a thread asking for improvements to the Galaxy class without risking a ban.
There is no game, you are a cog in a cash register
Then why do you play?
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I'm not playing at the moment. When DR comes out I will run through episodes in one of the ships that got upgraded then stop again for a few more months. I'm allowed to read the forums and make replies so if that bothers you well sorry that's tough nuts for you.
Comments
and yet in 4 year not 5 till feb 2 2015 all you get is fleet grind 5 min grind mission rep 5 min grind mission ya sto has not a thing to worry about but you get what you pay for
system Lord Baal is dead
The only jobs left under this "capitalism" are as prison guards, police, baby killers (soldiers), IRS agents, defense contractors. There is very little made for human beings to use, its all about slavery and war.
dont have to tell me just got my 75$ Avenger and next month plan to join the 75$ beta also for ED
system Lord Baal is dead
Actually, this is another area where I think Cryptic have done quite well; keep it casual. Instead of trying to compete with EVE's all-encompassing, life-devouring universe, they've kept STO accessible to a very casual playerbase attracted by the IP (and are specifically trying to continue doing so through DR). While I've never played EVE, the main criticism levelled against it seems to be that it has no "casual mode".
I play STO because I can play a Klingon. I have never been tempted by another MMORPG. Does this make me a narrow minded dullard? Perhaps, but I like to think that most people do not judge on the basis on MMORPG choice. Are there others like me out there? Only Cryptic's stats can hope to tell.
And of course - "grinding" means - playing the game. What would you do if there was no grind?
Would you play the game, or would you not play the game? And if the latter... why not just not subscribe to the grind and get out? If the former, why is it so bad that you have to play the game to earn rewards?
If you don't want grind, you probably want more story content or something like that. But think of how long it took go get through the Legacy of Romulus content. That was the biggest content updates they ever made (at least until Delta Rising is out).
So, let's think away Tier 6 ships, Tier 5 Upgrades, Mark XIII and Mark XIV Epics. If the devs didn't spend any time on that, how many extra missions could that generate? Let's say that would double the amount of content (which is unlikely, it would be far less). You think that would be enough to keep you "subscribed" for a year? That you would keep plaiyng the game if you have done all those missions, but there was no new gear grind, no new ships? What would you spend money for? What amount of money would Cryptic have to ask for such a content upgrade per player willing to pay to get their investment back?
Question: how many episodes of Voyager (especially later on) devolved into "the bad guy dies." (answer: quite a few)
Star Trek has the stated idealism of "exploration" and a few episodes that try to realize it, but really what it was in fact was a 20th century sci-fi television show that tried to cater to the interest of the viewer as much as possible. Bodly going often took a back seat to character drama (most of all) and space battles.
STO does the same. Different format, different audience, different result (combat focus, welcome to video games my friend), same IP and still appropriate. This is how a Star Trek MMO evolves given its social environment.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
what was Voyager doing while on its way home ???? seeking out what? doing what?
system Lord Baal is dead
The thing here that bothers me most is that Devs have stated ships are space map characters but they are treating them like expendable items. We paid time/money for those characters and they are being relegated to second/third best with no T6 upgrade path. I have no problem with a grind in mmo games. Grinding is after all something to do. I do have a problem with my characters being obsolesced. The very clear cut comparison chart released days after the x-pac announcement has me hopping mad. T5u is not only inadequate from a marketing standpoint, it makes no sense in a highly advanced technically modular civilization fantasy. They wouldn't even be having this problem if they had implemented Bridge Officer stations as upgradeable items during development like the panels advised.
To those saying "You don't HAVE to upgrade, or (insert smug adversarial TRIBBLE)" of course we don't. What we do have to do is decide whether we CAN deal with mothballing our old ships/gear so our peers won't look down their noses at us in fleet actions. And that is the bottom line here. Social pressure is a major motivating factor in these games. If it didn't matter we would be playing some single person game.
Most people will suck it up and grind if that's what it takes, but when they go after our character/avatar it is a deal breaker. We trust that our characters will have a difficult path to glory, and if that path leads to a scrapyard we have a problem.
I have yet t wonder how that exploration will work out.
Is it just about "Look, a new source for Unabtonium. Quick, make your claim and turn on the drill?".
Exploration in Star Trek shows was often about meeting aliens or weird lifeforms or new space anomalies and interacting in a meaningful way with them. Say, escape the anomaly, comvince the weird lifeform that you meant no harm.
Nothing you can actually generated procedurally, certainly not without becoming repetitive or silly. "Oh, look, another Space Amoeba!" You may be able procedurally generate a cool vista to look at, and maybe place some rocks to mine, but is that really interesting and engaging in the long run?
And "scripted" Exploration exists in Startrek Online, even if you ignore the Foundry completely. The whole Dyson Arc contains a lot of exploration - from discovering the whole Dyson Sphere in the first place to exploring the Solar Station. There is a lot of exploration on New Romulus.
indeed, also i feel its not so much pay to win as pay to win quicker.
you will still be able to do all the story lines stf type stuff and such that DR has to offer in that free event ship you got last christmas or the one you get next christmas for newer players, with a free upgrade to T5u you will be all set with any weapons you have picked up in game.
you may take a few minutes longer to kill that nasty then the guy with the T6 ship and all the top gear that have cost him a small fortune and you may not get the top score in a stf type event but who cares its still fun none the less.
and if there is somthing in the store that you want save up your dil and convert to zen, you may find the exchange rate drop with the gear upgrade thing on the go.
i have said in another thread even with the exploration clusters gone there is still loads to explore in sto, apart from all the story missions you also have all the pve events, loads of encounter events, all of the foundry stuff plus all the differant star systems that can be visited and accolades to earn, i have been playing sto 3 years and there is still loads i havent accomplished yet.
and they are adding new stuff all the time.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
And you're calling STO greedy? The should pay players to Beta test. Star Citizen has a few red flags for me, especially the "donation" way they try to avoid tax laws.
If so why take so many pit stops? Well naturaly to fill out the format of a 90's sci-fi TV show complete with villians, character drama, shoot-em-up space battles, thrills, chills, and the rest of what people tuned in for every week.
It wasn't a documentary contemplating the challenges of crossing the galaxy. It entertainment mixed with small a bit of idealism to try to invoke a few other mental proccesses than "Weeeeeeee" (though still largely based in modern social conventions, not free-minded exploration.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
one im backing star citizen and with that 75$ purchase i get 2 game squadron 42 and star citizen oh and Aeroview Hangar Digital Game Soundtrack Starting Money: 2,000 UEC 6 Month Insurance Beta Access Digital Star Map ED im just getting a beta to see if i like it next time do some research
system Lord Baal is dead
Actually - yes
The point is this; PVP aside, *why* does it matter that your ship / gear / skill levels are not absolutely maxed out? Answer - it doesn't, apart from the OCD gamer impulse that pushes a lot of us onwards. T5U with all Mk XII gear will be plenty for all of the new content; there will be no more game to play if you've got more gear than that. Once you set an axiom of "it doesn't matter about being top-of-the-line", how much it costs to have a T6 ship with all gold gear becomes rather academic.
I tend to define grinding as "repeatedly playing the same part of the game for rewards". This can be fun - a few STFs to wind down at the end of the day - but the point is that it's not novel content (unlike PVP which is different every time).
Personally, when I hit "grind breaks" - the points at which I've completed the extant Rep and got all my alts to a satisfactory standard - that's when I start to do things like replay episodes or PVP.
That, I think, is the question every player needs to ask themselves before complaining about the grind level. It's very personal - what seems insane to me will be nothing to others, but I'm sure I seem like an addict to some casual players. Cryptic's unenviable task is to pitch the grind at a level where it keeps enough players interested.
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As a pre-F2P player, I was happy to pay my £10/month to dip into the STO universe. However, I expect that PWE's monetization of the game is yielding far greater results than the subscription model ever did; not a bad thing as it means the game keeps going. I don't have a problem with grind per se; the key, as you say, is to find a level that is fun for your preferences and just accept that it will take time to get some of the best shinies doing so.
Now how long is that when you can only play 2 days a week?
Sir, that is by a mile the most rational statement I've seen on the subject. All I can offer is that I've recently been running a T5 ship with Mk X Blue gear through the full range of elite content (basically because it's a new alt, but I've been unwilling to expend Dil and EC in quantity until I know what's happening with DR) - and have experienced none of the negativity you describe, hopefully because the ship is logically designed and not stupidly flown.
Also, I don't think the game is necessarily up for T5U ships (especially Fleet ones) just yet. At the moment many T5Us will still enjoy better BOff seating, stronger hulls and an extra console over their T6 counterparts. Does that balance the extra Cdr ability? Perhaps, but we've had a number of 2 LTC ships before (Tempest, Vo'quv, Fleet Norgh) and they have not been gamebreakers. As for the special abilities and Intel slots? It remains to be seen. Only thing I can see is that Cryptic have stated that not all T6 ships will have Intel seating, so that suggests that there is some effort being made to balance Intel vs the more conventional specialisations. A lot of people have pointed to T6 Fleet ships being the nail in the coffin of T5U - but we have no idea what those will look like yet.
IT certainly bothers me that Tier 5 Upgrade doesn't bring your ship to full Tier 6. I think a Lt.Cmdr power is a big deal. But I am at least nomimally interested in PvP, and I would still feel like I have the option to do PvP in my favourite Star Trek design (that I intentionally bought C-Store and FLeet Retrofits for ) and not feel gimped.
I think the whole "Tier 5 U" vs "Tier 6" is a terrible mistake. And it is certainly motivitad by monetary concern - the concern being that the new ships will not be enough to finance the new expansion, that people that used to spend money on ships are already content or saturated and don't buy a new ship. So they must offer something that costs full price and you can't have any other way. And that I dislike, and I think there would be better ways - and in fact, they already have implemented everything they needed for that with Intelligence BOs.
And if they add new Specialities, and don't give this specialities to older ships (but still upgrade them to everythnig else in equal power), they will probably still see good sales.
But all that doesn't change - if the game is too grindy for you, you should remember that the only thing everything you grind for allows you to do is play the game, and the grind is just playing the game. If you don't like that, then you ran into a trap - you play to get better at playing but you do not like playing - why play to get better at it? Play as much as you can still enjoy, not more. You don't need the hottest gear.
I think you need better fleetmates. Me and mine think the ausmonaughts are awesome for running estfs in tier 1 ships, and when we get a new member who is silver and can't afford a level 50 ship, we help them out, not mock them for flying a free40.
And there's plenty of solid mirror ships in estfs that are farther back hind a t5.5 than a 5u will be behind a t6.
Infected Space elite will net you ~2500 dil. 960 for finishing 1500 for turning in the 150 marks for dil. Every third time turn in the bnps for 1000 dil. CCE will get you ~2000 per 960 for finishing turn in 100 marks for 1000 dil. So 4500 + 480 for the test =5000, go to Vtulga and that is 6k in maybe 30 minutes. If you got room for toons I'd recommend leveling some Klingons for marauding. The use the contraband on Fed toons. That is what I am doing. I like you have a family and commitments, this is why I am leveling KDF for bonus xp for my limited time.
Also, try to save your reputation tier 5 rewards for turning in during the bonus dil weekends. That makes a huge difference, like a free 20k dil.
yep, my mirror heavy cruisers :P
are you a kid/teen?
i don't care about the others; i play first of all for myself, but in the stfs i do my best for the mission and for my teamates even if i don't have an
There are ways to make games more "addictive". There are ways to lock people into grinds. Even the establishing of loot drop rates are tailored to a unique persistence in living brains that goes all the way back to rats frantically pushing levers that only reward a special treat "sometimes".
Now, while the design of MMO's has changed (and STO is even more unique yet given all the unique mechanics), there are still problems which people frequently argue about. I rarely come to the forums, but I hear about these things plenty whenever I make the mistake of paying attention to Zone chat.
"Pay to Win". Please do not dismiss this concept quite so quickly. Instead, simply consider whether it is still up to date. Pay to Win did not work out as well. It was too obvious, it gated too much genuine material, and grated with players the internet over. So it was changed. It's no longer pay to win, but the underlying mechanic has not been removed. I think it has become an unholy combination of "Pay to have fun", "pay to be complete", and "pay to be competitive".
As odd as those sound, let me explain: Much of the new C-store, lobi, and expensive dilithium stuff is just plain fun. I love my Mobius and since at the time I had no grinding experience it nearly killed me to get it. But I am have quite a bit of fun with it. I'd also like to try one of the new Xindi Narcine Carriers on an alt even though I don't know a darned thing about carriers simply because of how awesome it looks. For someone who isn't wallet-warrior and who doesn't know how to play the market or set up a multi-account dilithium refinery that's going to be quite a bit of effort for the sake of something "that looks nice".
When I say "pay to be complete" it refers not only to maxing out your gear but even simpler stuff. Most new and intermediate players will have a great deal of difficulty attempting to get skills distributed properly for a target end-game build while they're still trying to reach 50. Used to be, when you reached 50 you'd get a free captain re-training token. Now, you only get that if you're "gold" and if you're not, that's $5. All these little things, if you want to finish them, to set things straight, you're going to have to start paying either your money, or someone else's money.
As for the pay to be competitive, well that's easy. Though yes you can certainly do quite well in the PvE queue with the stuff you don't have to pay for one way or the other, there is a certain flair, a certain edge that isn't obvious but is still there that people with access to alot of C-store and lobi gear can develop. This is intentional. Not all the lobi and C-store stuff is awesome but it does closely tie in to the "having fun" and frankly some of it really does give you some nice advantages like my plasmionic leech + embassy flow caps console.
So please, whenever someone starts complaining about "Pay to Win" instead of getting snarky please keep in mind that it still exists, it has just evolved into something new. Something that is not as obvious and thus more difficult to point fingers at any one thing. Also keep in mind that this "technically you can get Zen without paying money for it, just get it off of the dil exchange" misses the point that somewhere, someone is still buying the Zen. It might not be your wallet, but it still originates from someone else's purchase.
As for the crafting system, it appears to be similar to lockboxes. It is a gamble. Not only is it a timegate (more on that later), but it is also a slot machine which means that those expensive and hard to grind supplies for the end-game gear will have to be gotten multiple times in "hopes" that they'll eventually cough out exactly what you want.
Do keep in mind that whenever gambling becomes involved, there is another saying not too far behind - the house always wins. There are reasons for this, and yet gambling still enraptures people so. This is a gray area, and it always will be. There will always be a delicate balance between interrupting the feel and enjoyment of the game vs. making the money needed to keep things in operating. As a playerbase we likely never will agree on where that proper balance is, so instead of trying just be mindful that it does appear to be going in a darker direction. The lockboxes alone earned STO a certain bit of infamy amongst the outsiders as a particularly brutal method of fleecing its playerbase. It is a very gray area. The research and development gamble in a continuation and may even be an attempt to refine the strategy further. Whether its lighter or darker gray we do not yet know.
As for time gates, I do believe that the people invoking that term might be aware of a legal case where one of those little shift colored blocks apps "games" for some smart phone was successfully litigated for false advertising. The game was advertised as "free to play" however in order to progress in a "timely and expected manner" you had to pay significant micro-transactions. If you didn't pay, the flow of the game was wrecked and several days worth of play time could be drawn out to some crazy amount. Though the game was technically playable, the level of interruption was ruled to be significant enough to make the game "unplayable". This is relevant in that draws the line saying that too much interruption to the game experience unless one pays micro-transactions starts to cross the shady line into "not quite as free as promised". This app however, was unique in the sheer brutality and unavoidability in which players were "pinched". STO does not "pinch" its players nearly as hard. Yes, you can buy Zen that other people played for, you can grind for weeks, months, or possibly even close to a full year to achieve your goals. And with regularly released content your wish list will never run out unless you happen to be unique personality type of a true stick in the mud. Or a non-trek fan. Either one. Or, with micro-transactions, you can start to speed that up.
Once again, by sitting more firmly in the gray area, it is more difficult to make accusations without leaving the person complaining vulnerable to rebuttal. However, this does not mean that all accusations are baseless or simply because the person in question does not conform to one of a few personality types. If you wish to invoke different playing styles and mentalities among players, than please be mindful of those who are valid players but don't have the exact ratios of time, money, and patience to snugly fit into STO's equations.
In short, MMO's have always had a dark history with money making. This has even spread to non-MMO's. As the "ferengi accountants" that people joke about start pushing every little opportunity that they can for a micro-transaction the player-base (and even external audiences) will push back. Things will end up in the gray and hopefully a subjective balance can be reached. It is the nature of such gray zones to lack the footing required to make unassailable statements from undisputed positions. As Riker once said, "Don't even try, you can't!" Instead, be mindful that you are arguing about a very complicated, detailed system that has a lot of room to be nice to players - and a lot of room to TRIBBLE them as well (possibly even both, simultaneously. These are not mutually exclusive concepts).
The content they are releasing.. some of it is not in line with Star Trek. If they release the same ship and weapons over and over again people will get bored. So they went outside the litter box and in some cases stained or warped the floor. :eek: Yes they make profit. The game would not exist if they didn't.
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You cant even make a thread asking for improvements to the Galaxy class without risking a ban.
There is no game, you are a cog in a cash register
Then why do you play?
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I'm not playing at the moment. When DR comes out I will run through episodes in one of the ships that got upgraded then stop again for a few more months. I'm allowed to read the forums and make replies so if that bothers you well sorry that's tough nuts for you.