I'm not playing at the moment. When DR comes out I will run through episodes in one of the ships that got upgraded then stop again for a few more months. I'm allowed to read the forums and make replies so if that bothers you well sorry that's tough nuts for you.
Fortunately, from what I've seen, the upgrade process doesn't require all that much dilithium to use. For the cost of a full days refining (8k) you can get quite far in bringing Mk xii items to Mk XIII. I started it on tribble, and about 5k got the more than halfway there, I just ran out of materials to craft the upgrade items. The only real greed problem I've seen comes from the players on the exchange. Remember, cryptic doesn't set prices for anything but c-store and lobi items. Everything on the exchange and dilithium exchange is set by the players, and they're the ones who make it difficult to get good/needed items.
Everything on the exchange and dilithium exchange is set by the players, and they're the ones who make it difficult to get good/needed items.
Price is a function of scarcity. More supply = lower prices. Cryptic ultimately determines the supply of most things in this game, either by limiting drop rates, or limiting ability to share (bound to account), or by limiting ability to produce (eg, lvl 15 for crafting). Cryptic could make all markets bottom out tomorrow if they chose to do so. Players are operating within parameters that Cryptic finds acceptable.
I'm not playing at the moment. When DR comes out I will run through episodes in one of the ships that got upgraded then stop again for a few more months. I'm allowed to read the forums and make replies so if that bothers you well sorry that's tough nuts for you.
I am not saying you can't make replies...I am just curious why people with such a negative view of the company and the game continue to play.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
If there is such a thing as "degrading to greed", it happened when they put the first ship into the c-store for 20$. :P
I thought it was when they only offered the Galaxy-X for people that got 5 subscribers. Lots of people seemed to have simply bought 5 subscriptions.
Or maybe that wasn't greedy. I don't think they expected that to happen at all. We can probably be happy that this wasn't the price they ended up with for starships. (75 $ per ship?)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Fortunately, from what I've seen, the upgrade process doesn't require all that much dilithium to use. For the cost of a full days refining (8k) you can get quite far in bringing Mk xii items to Mk XIII.
Oh, the innocence you have. The naivete. You are just so precious!
From recent reports from Tribble, think around over 400K Dil per item. And a huge Time Gate to deal with as well.
OP, the way I look at this is that Cryptic is no longer trying to sell a good game, they are simply exploiting ST fans for $$ now. Where are the gameplay elements that customers have been asking for? Instead of improving things like exploration and diplomacy, cryptic beancounters say it is cheaper to remove them. Any new gameplay elements are simple, cheap, repetitive things, its assembly line TRIBBLE like "another rep" for the most part. There is some new episodes coming, alright, but that is not repeatable content it is one-time content. No effort made at making or selling an immersive MMORPG anymore, its just $$ now.
You cant even make a thread asking for improvements to the Galaxy class without risking a ban.
There is no game, you are a cog in a cash register
Calling bull.
Did they take exploration out to make beancounters happy, or did they take it out because they want to do something different? They explained their metrics that they interpreted as the exploration clusters being sub-par content. Which many of us agree with, by the way. How exactly was it cheap to spend development cycles on ripping them out? If they were trying to save money, they would have left them in.
As for repetition, what do you expect them to do? They tried cranking out FE's once before, remember? They couldn't crank them out fast enough to meet the demand and still work on the other stuff. They're putting new missions in the expansion, aren't they? Still continuing the storyline they started in Sphere of Influence?
And the damn Galaxy class again. I'm a fan of the ship, too. But for crying out loud, every time this comes up it's a rant for pages and pages and the forums have a meltdown. The reason we don't let you create a new thread is because people don't accept no for an answer and can't discuss it without people starting to flame each other.
I'm not saying I'm okay with no story missions and no exploration. Or that there is no room for improvement.
I'm saying that this is not a sinister conspiracy to mind control Trek fans into handing over their money. If it were exploitative, then it would be mandatory to pay to play. It's not, and it isn't. No more than any other MMO that has operating expenses to pay.
Going to point out that probably a huge amount of that money we pay them went into hiring Voyager cast members to do VO's, which will be used in missions and such. That's fan service. They didn't do that to make a fast buck.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,572Community Moderator
edited September 2014
:eek:
Holy... buckets...
Bluegeek meltdown.
*puts on bomb suit and finds cover*
Let 'em have it man!
Did they take exploration out to make beancounters happy, or did they take it out because they want to do something different? They explained their metrics that they interpreted as the exploration clusters being sub-par content. Which many of us agree with, by the way. How exactly was it cheap to spend development cycles on ripping them out? If they were trying to save money, they would have left them in.
They could have done so much with the concept and what they had there in place, but they didn't. Instead they just got rid of them lock stock and barrel, plus the diplo stuff that was attached effectively destroying that as well.
Would it have been cheaper to leave them in as they were? Perhaps, but imo the whole thing was deleted to just free up space. They obviously weren't going to do anything with it, which was tragic, so logic dictated they be removed.
Instead, the exploration was 'replaced' in the minds of the powers that be with the foundry, something that genuinely IS a cop-out. I could get with supplementing it with the foundry, or using the foundry as the basis with supplements from the old mission base. Just handing it all off to the foundry sucks though. I'm sorry, but it does.
Some players surprise me, that they even drop $200 lump sums on this game... Crazy :eek:
I prefer to pay smaller amounts, make me feel like I'm indulging myself but nothing too extravagant. I'm sorry cryptic I will never pay something around $200 dollars, I don't care how big of a fan I am to Star Trek.
I try not to use real money but on those occasions if do its never more then 20$ and thats a BIG if.
This may be a science fiction game, but we play it now, not in the future.
And it's not greed. It is just business.
The servers don't run itself. New missions don't make themselves (ask a Foundry author). New ships don't make themselves. new mechanics don't make themselves.
Cryptic needs money to continue making the game. They also need profits so that the shareholders of Perfect World are kept happy (which is who Perfect World is responsible to).
How would you know it's greed? How much money do you think gets reinvested into the game(s), and how much many is used to buy private Yachts or swim in gold coins?
If you think it's too expensive, you can complain, but ultimately, the only meaningful thing to do that really proves its too expensive is that you stop buying. Cryptic will only react when sales go down.
Complaints help them know why sales decline, but without a decline, there is no reason to change yet - at least if the complaints don't give a good hint how they could earn even more money and still have happy players.
"It's too grindy" doesn't help Cryptic, for example, because "less grind" means that many people play less since there is nothing for them to work for. "More Story Missions" doesn't help them, because they know by now what story content costs them to make and how much it gets them. (Why do you think weekly, bi-weekly or monthly featured episodes didn't happen?)
To be honest, I'm a bit sick of the 'its just business' argument. You can be successful while being respectful to your customers and not try and gouge them in increasingly ridiculous ways. Based on the financial statements coming out of PWE, STO has been ticking over A-okay without the dilithium consuming monster which is this upgrade system.
They could have done so much with the concept and what they had there in place, but they didn't. Instead they just got rid of them lock stock and barrel, plus the diplo stuff that was attached effectively destroying that as well.
But did they not do it because of apathy/greed/evil or because of limited development resources. The cut occured in a half-season update that's being followed by a Delta Quadrant themed expansion. If they gave us a satisfying exploration replacement as soon as it was demanded how much of what we're seeing now for DR (battlezones, fe's, patrol missions, ect.) would have needed to be lopped off to provide revamped miscellaneous alien interiors and a few more options to add to the old madlib approach to game deisgn.
They could have done better, but such is NOT the appropriate standard to use when judging content (need to consider context).
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Did they take exploration out to make beancounters happy, or did they take it out because they want to do something different? They explained their metrics that they interpreted as the exploration clusters being sub-par content. Which many of us agree with, by the way. How exactly was it cheap to spend development cycles on ripping them out? If they were trying to save money, they would have left them in.
Cryptic took the exploration zone out, for it was not generating any revenue.
To be honest, I'm a bit sick of the 'its just business' argument. You can be successful while being respectful to your customers and not try and gouge them in increasingly ridiculous ways. Based on the financial statements coming out of PWE, STO has been ticking over A-okay without the dilithium consuming monster which is this upgrade system.
Question: is the dilithium cost really all that monstrous when you consider how much you need to spend now to take a XI rep set up to XII?
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
As for repetition, what do you expect them to do? They tried cranking out FE's once before, remember? They couldn't crank them out fast enough to meet the demand and still work on the other stuff. They're putting new missions in the expansion, aren't they? Still continuing the storyline they started in Sphere of Influence?
After 'Star Trek: Online' went Free to Play, the only fully featured episode series they released were 'The 2800'. Cryptic didn't attempt to release an entirely new series. I think we got one fully featured episode per season.
'Legacy of Romulus' didn't address the game's overall problem. Endgame.
Skyrim was a great game, because they wanted to make a great game, and lo they made a ton of money by selling a great game. STO is not a great game, because they do not want to make a great game, they want to make assembly line content that fits the constraints of the multi-game engine that all of their mediocre games are constrained by, with powercreep as a substitute for character development, so they can wring your little pockets with minimal effort. Maybe?
Cryptic took the exploration zone out, for it was not generating any revenue. You said it yourself with the word 'metrics'.
What also isn't generating any revenue are Bolians. Are they being removed? No because they aren't terribly designed according to any technical standard nor are they totally unused.
Money isn't the only thing that comes in numerical format.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Skyrim was a great game, because they wanted to make a great game, and lo they made a ton of money by selling a great game. STO is not a great game, because they do not want to make a great game, they want to make assembly line content that fits the constraints of the multi-game engine that all of their mediocre games are constrained by, with powercreep as a substitute for character development, so they can wring your little pockets with minimal effort. Maybe?
No, skyrim is a "great game" because it was sold as a great game. Compare crafting there and here. Combat there and here. There are just as many arguments to be had about Skyrim's mechanics as there are about STO's because each is a mechanical creation whose function doesn't abide by a definite technical standard but instead is judged according to popular conventions. The difference is merely that being closer to popular conventions its riskier and less profitable for the individual (according to group social dynamics) to question Skyrim (the popular game) than STO (the unpopular one.)
Its just a matter of mob psychology. The game exists as it exists, but how we humans interpret it depends on social context.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
No, skyrim is a "great game" because it was sold as a great game. Compare crafting there and here. Combat there and here. There are just as many arguments to be had about Skyrim's mechanics as there are about STO's because each is a mechanical creation whose function doesn't abide by a definite technical standard but instead is judged according to popular conventions. The difference is merely that being closer to popular conventions its riskier and less profitable for the individual (according to group social dynamics) to question Skyrim (the popular game) than STO (the unpopular one.)
Its just a matter of mob psychology. The game exists as it exists, but how we humans interpret it depends on social context.
Insert Dilithium or Wait Until Tomorrow is not a GREAT GAME kind of crafting system. Its moneygrab over gameplay. Cant believe you are arguing that STO crafting is anything other than that.
I had an idea, why cryptic don't simply take off the 8000 dilithium limit for people who subscribe to this game, they keep the game like that and make happy people who want support the game.
So at the end people still have the f2p and people who want a more traditional game have it too. because without dilithium limit it just about how many time you spend on the game.
I had an idea, why cryptic don't simply take off the 8000 dilithium limit for people who subscribe to this game, they keep the game like that and make happy people who want support the game.
So at the end people still have the f2p and people who want a more traditional game have it too. because without dilithium limit it just about how many time you spend on the game.
And I'm sure it will attract a lot of player.
That would destroy the game. Just look at how messed up neverwinter is from too much dil/astrals.
Comments
I'm not playing at the moment. When DR comes out I will run through episodes in one of the ships that got upgraded then stop again for a few more months. I'm allowed to read the forums and make replies so if that bothers you well sorry that's tough nuts for you.
I am not saying you can't make replies...I am just curious why people with such a negative view of the company and the game continue to play.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
My character Tsin'xing
I thought it was when they only offered the Galaxy-X for people that got 5 subscribers. Lots of people seemed to have simply bought 5 subscriptions.
Or maybe that wasn't greedy. I don't think they expected that to happen at all. We can probably be happy that this wasn't the price they ended up with for starships. (75 $ per ship?)
Oh, the innocence you have. The naivete. You are just so precious!
From recent reports from Tribble, think around over 400K Dil per item. And a huge Time Gate to deal with as well.
Calling bull.
Did they take exploration out to make beancounters happy, or did they take it out because they want to do something different? They explained their metrics that they interpreted as the exploration clusters being sub-par content. Which many of us agree with, by the way. How exactly was it cheap to spend development cycles on ripping them out? If they were trying to save money, they would have left them in.
As for repetition, what do you expect them to do? They tried cranking out FE's once before, remember? They couldn't crank them out fast enough to meet the demand and still work on the other stuff. They're putting new missions in the expansion, aren't they? Still continuing the storyline they started in Sphere of Influence?
And the damn Galaxy class again. I'm a fan of the ship, too. But for crying out loud, every time this comes up it's a rant for pages and pages and the forums have a meltdown. The reason we don't let you create a new thread is because people don't accept no for an answer and can't discuss it without people starting to flame each other.
I'm not saying I'm okay with no story missions and no exploration. Or that there is no room for improvement.
I'm saying that this is not a sinister conspiracy to mind control Trek fans into handing over their money. If it were exploitative, then it would be mandatory to pay to play. It's not, and it isn't. No more than any other MMO that has operating expenses to pay.
Going to point out that probably a huge amount of that money we pay them went into hiring Voyager cast members to do VO's, which will be used in missions and such. That's fan service. They didn't do that to make a fast buck.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Holy... buckets...
Bluegeek meltdown.
*puts on bomb suit and finds cover*
Let 'em have it man!
Uh yeah im going to take this momment to say
Exit stage right...even
Would it have been cheaper to leave them in as they were? Perhaps, but imo the whole thing was deleted to just free up space. They obviously weren't going to do anything with it, which was tragic, so logic dictated they be removed.
Instead, the exploration was 'replaced' in the minds of the powers that be with the foundry, something that genuinely IS a cop-out. I could get with supplementing it with the foundry, or using the foundry as the basis with supplements from the old mission base. Just handing it all off to the foundry sucks though. I'm sorry, but it does.
and that is all I disagree with you on.
That 400k had to be someone pushing an item to gold quality without ever getting a crit and paying to skip the time sink or something.
Moving a weapon, for example, from Mk XII to XIV takes 17 of the top kits without skipping timers, somewhere around 18-19k Dil.
Using the crafting level 10 upgrade (more likely to be widely available without a high EC cost), I think it's in the area of 37,000 Dil.
I try not to use real money but on those occasions if do its never more then 20$ and thats a BIG if.
To be honest, I'm a bit sick of the 'its just business' argument. You can be successful while being respectful to your customers and not try and gouge them in increasingly ridiculous ways. Based on the financial statements coming out of PWE, STO has been ticking over A-okay without the dilithium consuming monster which is this upgrade system.
But did they not do it because of apathy/greed/evil or because of limited development resources. The cut occured in a half-season update that's being followed by a Delta Quadrant themed expansion. If they gave us a satisfying exploration replacement as soon as it was demanded how much of what we're seeing now for DR (battlezones, fe's, patrol missions, ect.) would have needed to be lopped off to provide revamped miscellaneous alien interiors and a few more options to add to the old madlib approach to game deisgn.
They could have done better, but such is NOT the appropriate standard to use when judging content (need to consider context).
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Cryptic took the exploration zone out, for it was not generating any revenue.
You said it yourself with the word 'metrics'.
I trust Cryptic to be truthful to themselves.
Question: is the dilithium cost really all that monstrous when you consider how much you need to spend now to take a XI rep set up to XII?
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
'Legacy of Romulus' didn't address the game's overall problem. Endgame.
What also isn't generating any revenue are Bolians. Are they being removed? No because they aren't terribly designed according to any technical standard nor are they totally unused.
Money isn't the only thing that comes in numerical format.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
No, skyrim is a "great game" because it was sold as a great game. Compare crafting there and here. Combat there and here. There are just as many arguments to be had about Skyrim's mechanics as there are about STO's because each is a mechanical creation whose function doesn't abide by a definite technical standard but instead is judged according to popular conventions. The difference is merely that being closer to popular conventions its riskier and less profitable for the individual (according to group social dynamics) to question Skyrim (the popular game) than STO (the unpopular one.)
Its just a matter of mob psychology. The game exists as it exists, but how we humans interpret it depends on social context.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
A week can turn into a month can turn into a forgetaboutit.
Insert Dilithium or Wait Until Tomorrow is not a GREAT GAME kind of crafting system. Its moneygrab over gameplay. Cant believe you are arguing that STO crafting is anything other than that.
edit--buggy forum had the wrong quote in /tmp
So at the end people still have the f2p and people who want a more traditional game have it too. because without dilithium limit it just about how many time you spend on the game.
And I'm sure it will attract a lot of player.
That would destroy the game. Just look at how messed up neverwinter is from too much dil/astrals.