Heavy grav beam is a beam that does Exoctic damage, which registers in log as kinetic, so we can say there is an "exotic kinetic" damage type.
Technically, the damage is created (and buffed) as exotic, then applied to the target (and resisted) as kinetic. Sometimes damage is applied as other type, such as physical or plasma, etc. There is no exotic resist.
Technically, the damage is created (and buffed) as exotic, then applied to the target (and resisted) as kinetic. Sometimes damage is applied as other type, such as physical or plasma, etc. There is no exotic resist.
Perhaps that is the fix to all of this stuff though... perhaps We need an Exotic Dmg type... and an Exotic Resist... Just have resist all cover it, and Mono consoles (kinetic resist could do both) May make mono consoles not be pointless... and make the game a lot more clear.
Heck while we are at it... would an Exotic Spire Tac console Not be niffty for T4 Spire upgrades.... lol
Oh trust me, Mini died to FBP all the time. Sometimes, several times a day. Reaction time of Kerrat farmers have dramatically improved after being subject to continuous HOBO harassment / ganking. And Mini isn't exactly discreet about his approach, farmers are quick to press FBP and RSP - that is if PB BS didn't remove them. I think you grossly overestimated Mini's reaction time, he is not the quickest vaper out there. Maybe others use programs while he doesn't, I don't know but there are other vapers who are much harder to evade apparently because they use outside programs or something but Mini's vape takes time to set up. In fact, it takes so much for him to set up that I usually have the chance to nuke him before he launches an all out alpha on his target at which point, without APA, APO and/or TF, no EPTA, his dmg just went down the toilet and seconds later, he went boom.
Edit to add : I could also be confusing what I can see vs. what his target can see because there is a very good chance I could be seeing Mini closing on his target before he actually decloaks. Even just a few seconds of warning was enough for me to set up a rescue. I will pay more attention next time, as I don't always distinguish what I can see vs. what other Feds can see.
rom cloak trumps your weak snoop game. and fbp too.. hee hee. but i admit my greatest prowess is in settign up and not so much execution. i have a ****ty pc, slow reflexes, and fat fingers. but i do my best!
rom cloak trumps your weak snoop game. and fbp too.. hee hee. but i admit my greatest prowess is in settign up and not so much execution. i have a ****ty pc, slow reflexes, and fat fingers. but i do my best!
Sadly, you still managed to die after using rommy cloak, I do wonder if your ship is made of toilet paper sometimes... I got so bored of being able to detect you and turn you into fireworks in my sleep that I crafted a Mk XII Antiproton (very rare) DBB and gave it to Kolos for him to use you as his target practice - so much more entertaining that way.
Just to point out something thats been said in here multiple times, the trait would be underwhelming with only 100:25. I'm not sure of any changed notes, but the original release note is a blatent typo vs what is written in game. Literally, its one word changed around. The skill functions how the game describes it.
That said, if you're dying to someone with PM, you're bad. Period. There are so many ways to not die to PM'd TBR and all have been listed multiple times. To stack to 100% crit, you will be around 30% base resist and absolutely 0 res consoles. Every PM ship is a glass cannon if it's being used properly, except the palisade which imo is a terribly slow ship to really abuse PM.
Also grats mini, told you that level of damage was possible. Next time maybe you'll listen and figure it out 2 days earlier rather than tell me I'm wrong :P
Again, i have yet to see any release notes, or a dev stating anything one way or the other, but the only official statement we have, is the first release notes regarding the traits that come with R&D, and it clearly states that it should give*UP* to 25%. Saying that the trait would be underwhelming with 25% chance to crit is .. i dunno man, sheesh... imo 25% is still awesome.
And FYI, i have no problems dealing with the high particle gen builds, and i think i have proven this in several occations in ker'rat. But do you seriously want to see already insanly strong builds implement this trait onto their ship?
I mean cmon, they made the trait so mindblowingly OP, and its way to easy to implement into a ship.... and mindblowingly easy to use. It's like FBP + TBR... buff up, and hit 2 buttons. And with close to or above 100% crit chance, you have 2 skills that mostly ignore shields, and eat your hull...
And Mini has clearly shown how much burst damage you can do with several combinations... And he himself is mature enough to admit that this is sickenly OP.
I understand that alot of people wants to try to argue against it being OP because they will loose their 100% critchance TBR and overbuffed FBP.. but cmon, even without any critchance these skills are awesome if timed and used correctly. I would be happy to even get alot as 25% crit chance with this...
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
1) Yes why not... its the Tac main captain skill.. It boosts dmg that is what it does. Doesn't matter what type of ship your running. Also keep in mind I wouldn't trade a sci sci for a tac sci anyway myself. Sci have traits that bring the exotic dmg up just under that of alpha, and its up 100% of the time. Alpha boosts all dmg... just like subnuke strips all buffs and not just sci, or sensor scan kills all resist and not just resist to exotic. There is no good parallel to engi cause engis are pointless. (Having said that Engi fleet is a 30s Counter to the stuff your not liking for the entire team)
2) Yes why not... is it logical... ya you know what it is. No reason a redirected pulse couldn't pick up energy along the way or have it added on the way out. Its also still a skill that mainly only kills pugs. I won't deny having died to FBP... but its not game breaking. You figure out who has it and you count there buffs... you also have communication so that when it is seen you let your teammates know X has 10s of FBP and switch targets or you call for a nuke. If they time it so they smack you down right as you alpha... well its your fail for not counting buffs... and you take a death and come back. If you die a second time to the same trick your just bad no offense.
1. No. This absolutely makes no sence you never, saw Picard or Sicko ask a tactical officer to do something outside their career. Please inform me if Worf ever made a gravity well or did anything else science based. While I support APO and Tactical Fleet buffing all damage, I don't support APA or Going Down Fighting. Everyone get the choice to use APO, depending on the ship, and TF is a team buff.
2. You do know energy is made up of matter, there is only a fixed amount of it in hole universe. While I understand that a ship could add more energy to the pulse this would defeat the purpose of the ability if they did. If a ship could send more power back through the pulse why do they not just pulse anyways. Either way what I am trying to say is it does not make since. While I use FBP and buff over a 1:1 ratio, this is still a broken mechanic when you think about the physics and logic of it.
Again, i have yet to see any release notes, or a dev stating anything one way or the other, but the only official statement we have, is the first release notes regarding the traits that come with R&D, and it clearly states that it should give*UP* to 25%. Saying that the trait would be underwhelming with 25% chance to crit is .. i dunno man, sheesh... imo 25% is still awesome.
And FYI, i have no problems dealing with the high particle gen builds, and i think i have proven this in several occations in ker'rat. But do you seriously want to see already insanly strong builds implement this trait onto their ship?
I mean cmon, they made the trait so mindblowingly OP, and its way to easy to implement into a ship.... and mindblowingly easy to use. It's like FBP + TBR... buff up, and hit 2 buttons. And with close to or above 100% crit chance, you have 2 skills that mostly ignore shields, and eat your hull...
And Mini has clearly shown how much burst damage you can do with several combinations... And he himself is mature enough to admit that this is sickenly OP.
I understand that alot of people wants to try to argue against it being OP because they will loose their 100% critchance TBR and overbuffed FBP.. but cmon, even without any critchance these skills are awesome if timed and used correctly. I would be happy to even get alot as 25% crit chance with this...
Forget about release notes... most likely the notes where a type. Move the 25% in there sentence over a word and it is how it works. Read the ACTUAL tool tip in game.
"Gain 25% of Particle Generators Skill as Crit Chance on Exotic Damage"
Read that is there anyway they could possibly write that Description in error ? No possible chance that is a typo. It describes exactly the way it works... it doesn't mention any caps.
Secondy it is NOT easy to build around this... if you are saying it is you have yet to try it out.
Go ahead make your self super squish by dedicating to Sci dmg. Try it out serious.
Mini max proving it does crazy dmg are you serious ? You mean it does more dmg then a 100k Always crit Overload... cause he can run nothing but dmg gear and do that as well... he will still ahve to respawn 50% of the time when he declocks... Still hey he'll be able to make sci dmg = tac dmg I guess ???? lol
lets compare overload to Pgen... he is using heavy grav right... nice he has a max 100k insta crit every 2 min... that is much worse then what you could do with an overload... which is also INSTA crit, is boosted more reliably by debuffs and dmg boosts, and joy can be fired off every 15s.
I am not seeing the issue.
Really think about what mini is doing to get to 100% crit chance... would you run that build ? No sane player would... its a suicide build all the way.
Sci ships that run 100% crit chance... are also trading off a TON of survival options. It is one of and perhaps the most squish builds you can run on a science ship right now. If someone is carrying counters to your dmg you best hope you have a good team with you.
Forget about release notes... most likely the notes where a type. Move the 25% in there sentence over a word and it is how it works. Read the ACTUAL tool tip in game.
"Gain 25% of Particle Generators Skill as Crit Chance on Exotic Damage"
Read that is there anyway they could possibly write that Description in error ? No possible chance that is a typo. It describes exactly the way it works... it doesn't mention any caps.
Secondy it is NOT easy to build around this... if you are saying it is you have yet to try it out.
Go ahead make your self super squish by dedicating to Sci dmg. Try it out serious.
Mini max proving it does crazy dmg are you serious ? You mean it does more dmg then a 100k Always crit Overload... cause he can run nothing but dmg gear and do that as well... he will still ahve to respawn 50% of the time when he declocks... Still hey he'll be able to make sci dmg = tac dmg I guess ???? lol
lets compare overload to Pgen... he is using heavy grav right... nice he has a max 100k insta crit every 2 min... that is much worse then what you could do with an overload... which is also INSTA crit, is boosted more reliably by debuffs and dmg boosts, and joy can be fired off every 15s.
I am not seeing the issue.
Really think about what mini is doing to get to 100% crit chance... would you run that build ? No sane player would... its a suicide build all the way.
Sci ships that run 100% crit chance... are also trading off a TON of survival options. It is one of and perhaps the most squish builds you can run on a science ship right now. If someone is carrying counters to your dmg you best hope you have a good team with you.
I have read the tooltip in game, but we have no means of knowing whats intended or not, the only thing we have is the release note, there are no other official statements. So we do not know if its working as intended or not. You only argue your opinion regarding this, I would like to see an official statement on this matter. That is my point, and i wont forget about the release note, because its the only statement we have atm. So if we take that to considderation it is not working as intended.
It's not that hard implementing this on an already powerful build, i already know a few people that has tried it, and its silly beyond messure. No, my goal wouldn't have been 100% You don't *need* 100% critchance for this to be insane... even 50-75% would make it silly. I already have 3 large + 1 small spike that could vape on my current build... would you really want to make that +1 small spike, to be a rather large spike... + i can equip TBR on top of this just to give it more sillyness.... Heck, i could go the easy route and equip a FBP as well.. I could do this on my build without actually loosing that much defense or dmg from my beams.....
What do you think Mini? Should I make my Nicor even more spikey that it already is?
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
I have read the tooltip in game, but we have no means of knowing whats intended or not, the only thing we have is the release note, there are no other official statements. So we do not know if its working as intended or not. You only argue your opinion regarding this, I would like to see an official statement on this matter. That is my point, and i wont forget about the release note, because its the only statement we have atm. So if we take that to considderation it is not working as intended.
It's not that hard implementing this on an already powerful build, i already know a few people that has tried it, and its silly beyond messure. No, my goal wouldn't have been 100% You don't *need* 100% critchance for this to be insane... even 50-75% would make it silly. I already have 3 large + 1 small spike that could vape on my current build... would you really want to make that +1 small spike, to be a rather large spike... + i can equip TBR on top of this just to give it more sillyness.... Heck, i could go the easy route and equip a FBP as well.. I could do this on my build without actually loosing that much defense or dmg from my beams.....
What do you think Mini? Should I make my Nicor even more spikey that it already is?
Yes please please please... Trade in ALL your sci console slots for P Gen units... Trade one of your Engi consoles and grab the new Ultra Rare Pgen console... Make sure you run a deflector that has P Gen on it. That would be a very good idea.
You will love my 100% uptime A2D scort that will remove your now extremely squish boat.
There is draw backs major ones is the point. Its not like Tac consoles where if you run DMG consoles you are trading stuff that will keep you alive.
Yes please please please... Trade in ALL your sci console slots for P Gen units... Trade one of your Engi consoles and grab the new Ultra Rare Pgen console... Make sure you run a deflector that has P Gen on it. That would be a very good idea.
You will love my 100% uptime A2D scort that will remove your now extremely squish boat.
There is draw backs major ones is the point. Its not like Tac consoles where if you run DMG consoles you are trading stuff that will keep you alive.
besides the obvious counters, do you really think 100% crit chance or even really close to 100% is good game design?
They easily could have just done something to increase base damage, this might have just been an easy way out, but realistically a 2 min ability that requires extreme investment into being a glass cannon topped off with needing rommie cloak to get the extra boost (5 min ability) vs beam overload which tops out around the same potentially at current. This is one of the cases I have to agree with borts old this community throws the term overpowered around like confetti comment in this case.
They easily could have just done something to increase base damage, this might have just been an easy way out, but realistically a 2 min ability that requires extreme investment into being a glass cannon topped off with needing rommie cloak to get the extra boost (5 min ability) vs beam overload which tops out around the same potentially at current. This is one of the cases I have to agree with borts old this community throws the term overpowered around like confetti comment in this case.
Do I think its good design no... but its not my game... and its not as broken as people are QQing about.
1) Well I'm personally not one of the QQers. I've been using TBR pull + warp poo + GW since a week after season 8 (waited for the prices to go down). I actually max out grav gens for a mega well and a stronger TBR pull. I know very well it's easy to get out of my spam.
2) Pointing out another problem doesn't make PM not a problem.
3) I like Antonio's previous suggestion to change PM.
4) In game tool tip formula numbers are automagically created by the game. It could be wrong same as the release notes can be wrong.
3) I like Antonio's previous suggestion to change PM.
Didn't mean to sound curt. There are many things in this game I would change if it was up to me. I just don't agree that it is super broken even at 100%... it didn't crit at ALL before so the dmg has always been steady on the skill...
Really I would like to see the mechanic change from the go... What should likely happen is Pgen should effect Crit chance on exotic BASE with no trait... and the trait should boost it a bit more and add some more Dmg. Would bring the trait / no trait mechanics more in line with each other.
Yes please please please... Trade in ALL your sci console slots for P Gen units... Trade one of your Engi consoles and grab the new Ultra Rare Pgen console... Make sure you run a deflector that has P Gen on it. That would be a very good idea.
You will love my 100% uptime A2D scort that will remove your now extremely squish boat.
There is draw backs major ones is the point. Its not like Tac consoles where if you run DMG consoles you are trading stuff that will keep you alive.
LOL wut? Apparently you are under the impression that i would follow the crowds in how i setup my ship? On my current build i do not have any sort of consoles that would give me any benefits towards protection what so ever. So I wouldnt be sacrificing any defenses.
Yes, please come kill my squishy Nicor with your A2D scort.
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
Do I think its good design no... but its not my game... and its not as broken as people are QQing about.
Let me preface this by saying I don't like the BO changes of 100% crit or zero weapon power drain. At least they did reduce the amount of damage it could hit for overall. With PM you now get 100% crit (or damn near close enough) and more damage. Saying one broken thing is okay by stating another broken thing isn't good, especially not in terms of how this game will continue to develop.
Let me preface this by saying I don't like the BO changes of 100% crit or zero weapon power drain. At least they did reduce the amount of damage it could hit for overall. With PM you now get 100% crit (or damn near close enough) and more damage. Saying one broken thing is okay by stating another broken thing isn't good, especially not in terms of how this game will continue to develop.
The BO changes combined with that [Over] beam proc were horrible changes. The worst part, R&D is buggy as all hell, so only beams and cannons get the new modifiers so no new toys for anyone except more DPS.
Let me preface this by saying I don't like the BO changes of 100% crit or zero weapon power drain. At least they did reduce the amount of damage it could hit for overall. With PM you now get 100% crit (or damn near close enough) and more damage. Saying one broken thing is okay by stating another broken thing isn't good, especially not in terms of how this game will continue to develop.
I have no issue with the overload change though. Its not exactly what I would have done However it is fine. It did fix what cryptic considered broken.
They wanted to change overload so that it was 1) still very effective 2) a dmg boost 3) not a drain on overall dps (why pve people never used it) 4) Was no longer a skill that was so often a WTH just happened. 5) Reduce the crazy min max nature of the skill
All you have to do is look and see if it took care of that....
1) yes its very effective still (15-50k hits)
2) Yes it is indeed a very nice 10-20x dmg boost on a single beam
3) it no longer drops overall DPS if all you care about is wailing on a single target like a gate.
4) Yes it is no longer a skill that crits for 100k
5) Yes overload dmg is mostly now in the same range 20-30k I would say 95% of the time.
Overload is now 100% fine... it honestly needed a fix. I know people don't like to hear that... but it was broken for a long time. Yes I use it, Yes I fly an escort. Nothing at all wrong with overload.
So I guess I'm saying I don't believe I'm comparing something Broken to something Broken. I don't find Overload broken. I was saying I would have perhaps fixed it another way (I would have made it not Crit at ALL, to remove the ability for specific races to boost it higher then others)
As for ParticleM I would have went about it slightly different as well... that doesn't mean I don't like the idea of allowing Sci to use a trait to create a pure dmg dealer spec. (it requires heavy dedication to a skill that doesn't boost healing or CC)
Now we need more interesting traits that allow the other 2 classes to build outside of there little boxes. I would love to see Captain specific traits now that would allow them to do make odd combos more effective like Tac Healer or Engi Dmg.
I have no issue with the overload change though. Its not exactly what I would have done However it is fine. It did fix what cryptic considered broken.
They wanted to change overload so that it was 1) still very effective 2) a dmg boost 3) not a drain on overall dps (why pve people never used it) 4) Was no longer a skill that was so often a WTH just happened. 5) Reduce the crazy min max nature of the skill
All you have to do is look and see if it took care of that....
1) yes its very effective still (15-50k hits)
2) Yes it is indeed a very nice 10-20x dmg boost on a single beam
3) it no longer drops overall DPS if all you care about is wailing on a single target like a gate.
4) Yes it is no longer a skill that crits for 100k
5) Yes overload dmg is mostly now in the same range 20-30k I would say 95% of the time.
Overload is now 100% fine... it honestly needed a fix. I know people don't like to hear that... but it was broken for a long time. Yes I use it, Yes I fly an escort. Nothing at all wrong with overload.
So I guess I'm saying I don't believe I'm comparing something Broken to something Broken. I don't find Overload broken. I was saying I would have perhaps fixed it another way (I would have made it not Crit at ALL, to remove the ability for specific races to boost it higher then others)
As for ParticleM I would have went about it slightly different as well... that doesn't mean I don't like the idea of allowing Sci to use a trait to create a pure dmg dealer spec. (it requires heavy dedication to a skill that doesn't boost healing or CC)
Now we need more interesting traits that allow the other 2 classes to build outside of there little boxes. I would love to see Captain specific traits now that would allow them to do make odd combos more effective like Tac Healer or Engi Dmg.
ya after i thought about it a bit, this was the conclusion i came to about that BO change, before it even made it to holo. i just thought the reduction to base damage was too little, and it was and that got further reduced, but otherwise it was a great change that accomplished all those goals. escorts could regularly 1 shot anything with just BO crits, now its big damage, but should never 1 shot alone. also beam array boats can primarily use it over FAW in pvp, and only fallback on faw when spam needs clearing. just BO2 on an array regularly gets me 10k hits, its great
justifying so many sci crits because BO always crits though is a stretch. this is a single hit, not a string of FBP pulses, or a whole bunch of TBR cycles. when FAW and CRF always crit too, thats a fair analogy.
The difference between a normal cannon or beam hit vs a crit is a lot larger a gap between a non-crit tbr and a crit tbr. As far as we can tell, captain severity doesn't boost it. There are fabled 20k crits from cannons in this game. A tbr crit can be from 2-12k thanks to resists.
I'm not saying the 100% crit path is good bad or indifferent, but the bias of what crits do to energy weapons vs what crit is doing to exotic isn't in the same scale. Do I agree with this? Probably not, they simply could have made a trait that made Prtg interact with exotic skills the way it did before they changed it to be more aux than prtg. This would have resulted in about the same average damage result....and people wouldn't be crying fowl over it.
Unfortunately it's not our game, this was decided by someone who felt sci needed to better punish the borg. Is it op when used in mass? Sure. A premade of 3 PM + 2 tacscort is basically a shock and awe strat though. No global x teams on healers, ****ty lv 1/2 heals, **** resists, the list goes on. Basically turning a wells into a bop on tank level. But because its 100% crit, something that doesnt really exist elsewhere in the game (except bo) it seems a lil sudden/broken/etc.
If we were talking about nothing but TBR, none of this would sound too bad. However, the one thing that seems to be forgotten this far along is EWP, and how everyone running PM also slots this. Now I'm not to sure how long it hangs around on the map after activation, but the smart players drop this, then hit TBR to drag everyone through it. Good plan, I would do the same if I got serious into ganking. So now you've got multiple abilities critting you for god knows what, and this is before you take into account ANY of their actual weapons or other abilties.
Anyway, all the talk of hard counter this and soft counter that is easily interrupted by one TIF, one SNB, one scramble sensors doff etc, the list goes on. Then again those aren't even needed if you're smart and waiting for those to get burned off by any other number of things, or just running two TBRs, which most PM users are. The duplicate ability cooldown for TBR is 20 seconds. The duplicate ability cooldown for PH is 30 seconds, single copy is 45. A2D (single copy WITH doff) runs 23/30 seconds, without the doff it's 15 on and 15 off. Again I'm not sure how long EWP stays on the map, so I can't really get into that one, but HE duplicate copy is 30 seconds, single copy is 45 as well. So basically unless you're running dual A2D and dual HE you will have serious downtime where ridiculous crits will tick on you every second, and that's before they use literally anything else.
Lastly, let's not compare this damage to that of FAW. Everyone in this thread knows that FAW damage is worthless and normally spammed by people who think their max deeps PvE ship will dominate in cap & splode... This is AoE damage on an entirely new level, that matters more than regular freaking weapons damage. Oh, and TBR never misses your #1 target...again showing that tractor beams are magical in the sense they don't ever miss, on top of the fact they don't have to worry about those pesky shields. If this makes any sense to anyone, please let me know where I can buy some Tractor Beam Dual Heavy Cannons Mk XIV [CrtD]x3, because that's what engineers would be designing if tractor beams actually did what they have become in game with 100% accuracy, 100% shield pen, and with PM 100% CrtH.
*I would honestly like to know how long warp plasma 'hangs around', if anyone can let me know.*
No one runs EWP for the dmg. Even people running PM. Does it crit and do more dmg then with out of course. That simply isn't the reason to run it. So remove PM and people still run it and it still stalls people out which is the real reason its any good.
We talk about TBR because it is the MAIN Sci dmg skill and the only skill that really has any sustained dmg.
GW TR EWP... some torp effects are effected by PM. They increase the dmg and yes if you stack as much as you can on one target the dmg goes up.
To me its no different then a tac running DEM 2 on there escort... added dmg that is nice but not killing people alone.
PartM build TBR / EWP / GW vs. 5 DHC / Beam overload 360 Pen Doff / DEM build
Lets all get down to brass tacks here Which one is the more effective Killer ?
If you answered the PartM build... your wrong.
PartM build TBR / EWP / GW vs. 8 Beam FAW / DEM / A2B build
Which one of these is the better sustained dmg build ?
That is the real question to be asking... and to be honest its going to completely depend on the other team and what they are doing to counter. The faw has a 10k reach... and has no direct hard counters. The PartM has higher killing potential if your targets are not wise... on the reverse it can also be completely neutered and do next to nothing outside of nuke windows. (Sure in Pug matches most people won't have a clue how to counter the PartM build... which I guess is in its favor if you care about pug balance)
The main reason faw was even brought up is that it TRIBBLE up scoreboard numbers just as efficiently as mindlessly spamming tbr3/2 with PM over a decent length match. The same match that the scoreboard puts a PM sci @ 1M dmg, and a good tac at 500k, well go open the parser, you'll see the sci is realistically at 1.2-1.5m dmg, where as that tac was actually at 2.5-4m total damage. The scoreboard is not a valid meteric for "rating" a build.
TBR in general, as almost all the other sci skill even with PM do insanely low damage...well yes when 3 people run it at the same time and focus on someone, unless they're stupid and isolated from every other person/pet/spam/whatever on the field, the TBR user can't really tell TBR to hit this person indiscriminately. Add more than 3 targets at once around you, and suddenly it becomes an RNG of what's being hit, and moving to accomodate only hitting one target. Using PM efficiently vs running up the scoreboard is not the same thing. Or you can do a tac palisade with fbp and lulz the scoreboard if the other team is really THAT determined to keep exploding themselves on your hull.
EWP dmg is moot. The trick 100% is to drag people through ejecting warp poo with tbr, I fully agree with this, but its the TBR doing the damage, the warp poo (doffed especially) is just a way of defeating omega, evasive, etc. Yes it does damage. The most I've ever seen a tick do is just under 1k off the top of my head without looking at an actual parse...every 3 seconds. This is a turrets level of damage. Not 3, 1 turret. EWP in itself is pretty damn broken as the amount on screen vs timer of hazards can be very unforgiving, especially when you are being forcefully pulled into it. Superman is your best friend here. I honestly do not know anyone who runs a serious pvp build without Ke'leel or his kdf/rom equal. (and lets not talk about how overly reliable the cleanse proc is, or that it clears nukes)
The biggest issue here is people are so used to shield tanking with nearly or over capped resists just pressing epts1, that suddenly their "tank" is gone. We got utterly floored by IC when they brought a shockwave build against our alpha stage PM team. They did it again recently by having an unbelievably hull heal heavy recluse that had enough hull to be -near unkillable- to TBR. Adjust your meta. Hull tanking is back in season. Elachi's, DEM, BO procs, PM + TBR. I for one welcome the end of stupidly over capped shield res and enough clickies to make a good pvp match nearly unendable time wise.
No one runs EWP for the dmg. Even people running PM. Does it crit and do more dmg then with out of course. That simply isn't the reason to run it. So remove PM and people still run it and it still stalls people out which is the real reason its any good.
I agree, but it's another added bonus and trick to put in the 100% crth pm pile, so now anyone not running it is a fool. So take EWP away again, and you're left with the comparison of dual TBR against dual PH. TBR wins the cooldown game hands down even if you run 2 PH, if you run just one... So okay, A2D, well I guess you better run dual A2D now as well. The argument for making other builds viable is double-edged here, as it forces everyone else to run something specific.
To me its no different then a tac running DEM 2 on there escort... added dmg that is nice but not killing people alone.
Except that DEM effects weapons, which still have to aimed at a target (again ignoring the FAW spam people). Also small bleedthrough vs 100% shield pen, not buying it.
PartM build TBR / EWP / GW vs. 8 Beam FAW / DEM / A2B build
Which one of these is the better sustained dmg build ?
Aux2Faw...that's an entirely different set of problems that really should be left outside of this debate. For full disclosure and to make sure it doesn't seem like I'm protecting it, I hate Aux2FAW.
That is the real question to be asking... and to be honest its going to completely depend on the other team and what they are doing to counter. The faw has a 10k reach... and has no direct hard counters. The PartM has higher killing potential if your targets are not wise... on the reverse it can also be completely neutered and do next to nothing outside of nuke windows. (Sure in Pug matches most people won't have a clue how to counter the PartM build... which I guess is in its favor if you care about pug balance)
Meh, FBP, Aceton Assims, use mines/pet spam...SHIELDS. Just like when people defend FBP (just don't shoot...) or TBR (A2D) here you can say, just get out of range.
I agree, but it's another added bonus and trick to put in the 100% crth pm pile, so now anyone not running it is a fool. So take EWP away again, and you're left with the comparison of dual TBR against dual PH. TBR wins the cooldown game hands down even if you run 2 PH, if you run just one... So okay, A2D, well I guess you better run dual A2D now as well. The argument for making other builds viable is double-edged here, as it forces everyone else to run something specific.
I will be honest I stopped reading right there.
That is MMO 101 ... and its why we call it META game.
"Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself."
There are counters to EVERYTHING... there are team setups that will beat X or Y or Z... the question is how much of X or Y or Z counter do you want to have on your team to try win all the time.
Pandas has popularized the PM team no doubt. There are counters to it... in fact right above you another Panda has detailed the makings of a team that does trump what we have been doing. Or at least competes with it very closely.
You don't need an entire team running dual a2d (BY the way with a doff ONE copy of a2d is UP for 24s and down for 6s... if you can't figure out how to avoid TBR dmg for 12s a min you have issues).
There is NOTHING anyone can bring to a match right now that can't be beaten 90% by team setup.
High end STO PvP... is 60% team make up, 30% team play... and 10% skill level. Most of the high end fleets are all darn close to = in terms of player skill. The rest comes down to bringing the right mix of ship/ builds and working well together.
I know exactly how to beat our team... I'm not going to detail every ship for the forums and what they should be doing... but I will tell you right now the team I am thinking about would drop them hard. Would it work well against other teams still running older meta team setups... no not really. That is the lovely thing about the meta game. What do you bring when vs who or do you try to hyrbid out the team build so you can handle it all... or do you gamble and show up with the completely wrong setup and get smoked. Its 99% of the fun.
Um, shouldn't a tac in an escort be the pinnacle for damage and killing? If it's not, then why would anyone bother.
Ok I did read some more...
1) Yes and no... Tippy top of the pile perhaps... the ONLY option for dmg. Um hell no.
2) THEY STILL ARE THE Tippy top of the Killing folks tree.
Anyone that watches a video of say a panda team beating up a preamde with multiple PM ships should look again at the match and see what is really happening.
Look at it like you have never seen a STO premade match before. Identify who is healing who is clearing who is killing things.
If you come back with its ALL TBR... then your not paying any attention at all.
yeah, it requires 'zero weapons'- but something on the order of four or five sci partigen consoles to actually be anything approaching to effective.
Absolutely it should match up in those cases.
'no weapons' hahahahaha.
So you give up 4 or 5 consoles for extra damage...now where have I seen this before...oh yeah, on every escort. Once again though the difference being, you still haven't used a single weapon or tac console slot. So one BOff ability (albeit with trait) + 4/5 consoles should equal 7/8 weapons +4/5 consoles? What a joke.
So you give up 4 or 5 consoles for extra damage...now where have I seen this before...oh yeah, on every escort. Once again though the difference being, you still haven't used a single weapon or tac console slot. So one BOff ability (albeit with trait) + 4/5 consoles should equal 7/8 weapons +4/5 consoles? What a joke.
Have you ever asked a PM running ship to do nothing but shoot at you with there 6 weapons slots ? lmao
That is the real joke. If you think un buffed wepaons coming out of a sci ship likely running >50 power in there weapons is doing anything... well I know you don't believe it is.
Relax escorts are not the only dmg dealing option in the game... did you scream this much when A2B faw cruiser was the thing ?
Pandas has popularized the PM team no doubt. There are counters to it... in fact right above you another Panda has detailed the makings of a team that does trump what we have been doing. Or at least competes with it very closely.
You don't need an entire team running dual a2d (BY the way with a doff ONE copy of a2d is UP for 24s and down for 6s... if you can't figure out how to avoid TBR dmg for 12s a min you have issues).
If we're going to knit-pick, it's 23 seconds up, like I said, and 7 seconds down. 14 seconds per minute, in a perfect world where you aren't effected by any debuff whatsoever, but that's not going to happen because those using it are also aware of the limitations and come prepared.
There is NOTHING anyone can bring to a match right now that can't be beaten 90% by team setup.
By the proper team setup, yeah I get that. What happens when you can't get on a proper team all the time? Don't queue up? Swap to your own PM ship? I fully agree this is an mmo, and teamwork is the best offense and defense, but when you queue up solo it's a 100% TRIBBLE shoot. Chances are half the team won't even have team chat open, let alone do something crazy like respond to it.
Comments
Perhaps that is the fix to all of this stuff though... perhaps We need an Exotic Dmg type... and an Exotic Resist... Just have resist all cover it, and Mono consoles (kinetic resist could do both) May make mono consoles not be pointless... and make the game a lot more clear.
Heck while we are at it... would an Exotic Spire Tac console Not be niffty for T4 Spire upgrades.... lol
rom cloak trumps your weak snoop game. and fbp too.. hee hee. but i admit my greatest prowess is in settign up and not so much execution. i have a ****ty pc, slow reflexes, and fat fingers. but i do my best!
Sadly, you still managed to die after using rommy cloak, I do wonder if your ship is made of toilet paper sometimes...
Again, i have yet to see any release notes, or a dev stating anything one way or the other, but the only official statement we have, is the first release notes regarding the traits that come with R&D, and it clearly states that it should give*UP* to 25%. Saying that the trait would be underwhelming with 25% chance to crit is .. i dunno man, sheesh... imo 25% is still awesome.
And FYI, i have no problems dealing with the high particle gen builds, and i think i have proven this in several occations in ker'rat. But do you seriously want to see already insanly strong builds implement this trait onto their ship?
I mean cmon, they made the trait so mindblowingly OP, and its way to easy to implement into a ship.... and mindblowingly easy to use. It's like FBP + TBR... buff up, and hit 2 buttons. And with close to or above 100% crit chance, you have 2 skills that mostly ignore shields, and eat your hull...
And Mini has clearly shown how much burst damage you can do with several combinations... And he himself is mature enough to admit that this is sickenly OP.
I understand that alot of people wants to try to argue against it being OP because they will loose their 100% critchance TBR and overbuffed FBP.. but cmon, even without any critchance these skills are awesome if timed and used correctly. I would be happy to even get alot as 25% crit chance with this...
1. No. This absolutely makes no sence you never, saw Picard or Sicko ask a tactical officer to do something outside their career. Please inform me if Worf ever made a gravity well or did anything else science based. While I support APO and Tactical Fleet buffing all damage, I don't support APA or Going Down Fighting. Everyone get the choice to use APO, depending on the ship, and TF is a team buff.
2. You do know energy is made up of matter, there is only a fixed amount of it in hole universe. While I understand that a ship could add more energy to the pulse this would defeat the purpose of the ability if they did. If a ship could send more power back through the pulse why do they not just pulse anyways. Either way what I am trying to say is it does not make since. While I use FBP and buff over a 1:1 ratio, this is still a broken mechanic when you think about the physics and logic of it.
Forget about release notes... most likely the notes where a type. Move the 25% in there sentence over a word and it is how it works. Read the ACTUAL tool tip in game.
"Gain 25% of Particle Generators Skill as Crit Chance on Exotic Damage"
Read that is there anyway they could possibly write that Description in error ? No possible chance that is a typo. It describes exactly the way it works... it doesn't mention any caps.
Secondy it is NOT easy to build around this... if you are saying it is you have yet to try it out.
Go ahead make your self super squish by dedicating to Sci dmg. Try it out serious.
Mini max proving it does crazy dmg are you serious ? You mean it does more dmg then a 100k Always crit Overload... cause he can run nothing but dmg gear and do that as well... he will still ahve to respawn 50% of the time when he declocks... Still hey he'll be able to make sci dmg = tac dmg I guess ???? lol
lets compare overload to Pgen... he is using heavy grav right... nice he has a max 100k insta crit every 2 min... that is much worse then what you could do with an overload... which is also INSTA crit, is boosted more reliably by debuffs and dmg boosts, and joy can be fired off every 15s.
I am not seeing the issue.
Really think about what mini is doing to get to 100% crit chance... would you run that build ? No sane player would... its a suicide build all the way.
Sci ships that run 100% crit chance... are also trading off a TON of survival options. It is one of and perhaps the most squish builds you can run on a science ship right now. If someone is carrying counters to your dmg you best hope you have a good team with you.
I have read the tooltip in game, but we have no means of knowing whats intended or not, the only thing we have is the release note, there are no other official statements. So we do not know if its working as intended or not. You only argue your opinion regarding this, I would like to see an official statement on this matter. That is my point, and i wont forget about the release note, because its the only statement we have atm. So if we take that to considderation it is not working as intended.
It's not that hard implementing this on an already powerful build, i already know a few people that has tried it, and its silly beyond messure. No, my goal wouldn't have been 100% You don't *need* 100% critchance for this to be insane... even 50-75% would make it silly. I already have 3 large + 1 small spike that could vape on my current build... would you really want to make that +1 small spike, to be a rather large spike... + i can equip TBR on top of this just to give it more sillyness.... Heck, i could go the easy route and equip a FBP as well.. I could do this on my build without actually loosing that much defense or dmg from my beams.....
What do you think Mini? Should I make my Nicor even more spikey that it already is?
Yes please please please... Trade in ALL your sci console slots for P Gen units... Trade one of your Engi consoles and grab the new Ultra Rare Pgen console... Make sure you run a deflector that has P Gen on it. That would be a very good idea.
You will love my 100% uptime A2D scort that will remove your now extremely squish boat.
There is draw backs major ones is the point. Its not like Tac consoles where if you run DMG consoles you are trading stuff that will keep you alive.
besides the obvious counters, do you really think 100% crit chance or even really close to 100% is good game design?
They easily could have just done something to increase base damage, this might have just been an easy way out, but realistically a 2 min ability that requires extreme investment into being a glass cannon topped off with needing rommie cloak to get the extra boost (5 min ability) vs beam overload which tops out around the same potentially at current. This is one of the cases I have to agree with borts old this community throws the term overpowered around like confetti comment in this case.
Beam Overload says hello.
Do I think its good design no... but its not my game... and its not as broken as people are QQing about.
1) Well I'm personally not one of the QQers. I've been using TBR pull + warp poo + GW since a week after season 8 (waited for the prices to go down). I actually max out grav gens for a mega well and a stronger TBR pull. I know very well it's easy to get out of my spam.
2) Pointing out another problem doesn't make PM not a problem.
3) I like Antonio's previous suggestion to change PM.
4) In game tool tip formula numbers are automagically created by the game. It could be wrong same as the release notes can be wrong.
Didn't mean to sound curt. There are many things in this game I would change if it was up to me. I just don't agree that it is super broken even at 100%... it didn't crit at ALL before so the dmg has always been steady on the skill...
Really I would like to see the mechanic change from the go... What should likely happen is Pgen should effect Crit chance on exotic BASE with no trait... and the trait should boost it a bit more and add some more Dmg. Would bring the trait / no trait mechanics more in line with each other.
LOL wut? Apparently you are under the impression that i would follow the crowds in how i setup my ship? On my current build i do not have any sort of consoles that would give me any benefits towards protection what so ever. So I wouldnt be sacrificing any defenses.
Yes, please come kill my squishy Nicor with your A2D scort.
Let me preface this by saying I don't like the BO changes of 100% crit or zero weapon power drain. At least they did reduce the amount of damage it could hit for overall. With PM you now get 100% crit (or damn near close enough) and more damage. Saying one broken thing is okay by stating another broken thing isn't good, especially not in terms of how this game will continue to develop.
The BO changes combined with that [Over] beam proc were horrible changes. The worst part, R&D is buggy as all hell, so only beams and cannons get the new modifiers so no new toys for anyone except more DPS.
I have no issue with the overload change though. Its not exactly what I would have done However it is fine. It did fix what cryptic considered broken.
They wanted to change overload so that it was 1) still very effective 2) a dmg boost 3) not a drain on overall dps (why pve people never used it) 4) Was no longer a skill that was so often a WTH just happened. 5) Reduce the crazy min max nature of the skill
All you have to do is look and see if it took care of that....
1) yes its very effective still (15-50k hits)
2) Yes it is indeed a very nice 10-20x dmg boost on a single beam
3) it no longer drops overall DPS if all you care about is wailing on a single target like a gate.
4) Yes it is no longer a skill that crits for 100k
5) Yes overload dmg is mostly now in the same range 20-30k I would say 95% of the time.
Overload is now 100% fine... it honestly needed a fix. I know people don't like to hear that... but it was broken for a long time. Yes I use it, Yes I fly an escort. Nothing at all wrong with overload.
So I guess I'm saying I don't believe I'm comparing something Broken to something Broken. I don't find Overload broken. I was saying I would have perhaps fixed it another way (I would have made it not Crit at ALL, to remove the ability for specific races to boost it higher then others)
As for ParticleM I would have went about it slightly different as well... that doesn't mean I don't like the idea of allowing Sci to use a trait to create a pure dmg dealer spec. (it requires heavy dedication to a skill that doesn't boost healing or CC)
Now we need more interesting traits that allow the other 2 classes to build outside of there little boxes. I would love to see Captain specific traits now that would allow them to do make odd combos more effective like Tac Healer or Engi Dmg.
ya after i thought about it a bit, this was the conclusion i came to about that BO change, before it even made it to holo. i just thought the reduction to base damage was too little, and it was and that got further reduced, but otherwise it was a great change that accomplished all those goals. escorts could regularly 1 shot anything with just BO crits, now its big damage, but should never 1 shot alone. also beam array boats can primarily use it over FAW in pvp, and only fallback on faw when spam needs clearing. just BO2 on an array regularly gets me 10k hits, its great
justifying so many sci crits because BO always crits though is a stretch. this is a single hit, not a string of FBP pulses, or a whole bunch of TBR cycles. when FAW and CRF always crit too, thats a fair analogy.
I'm not saying the 100% crit path is good bad or indifferent, but the bias of what crits do to energy weapons vs what crit is doing to exotic isn't in the same scale. Do I agree with this? Probably not, they simply could have made a trait that made Prtg interact with exotic skills the way it did before they changed it to be more aux than prtg. This would have resulted in about the same average damage result....and people wouldn't be crying fowl over it.
Unfortunately it's not our game, this was decided by someone who felt sci needed to better punish the borg. Is it op when used in mass? Sure. A premade of 3 PM + 2 tacscort is basically a shock and awe strat though. No global x teams on healers, ****ty lv 1/2 heals, **** resists, the list goes on. Basically turning a wells into a bop on tank level. But because its 100% crit, something that doesnt really exist elsewhere in the game (except bo) it seems a lil sudden/broken/etc.
Anyway, all the talk of hard counter this and soft counter that is easily interrupted by one TIF, one SNB, one scramble sensors doff etc, the list goes on. Then again those aren't even needed if you're smart and waiting for those to get burned off by any other number of things, or just running two TBRs, which most PM users are. The duplicate ability cooldown for TBR is 20 seconds. The duplicate ability cooldown for PH is 30 seconds, single copy is 45. A2D (single copy WITH doff) runs 23/30 seconds, without the doff it's 15 on and 15 off. Again I'm not sure how long EWP stays on the map, so I can't really get into that one, but HE duplicate copy is 30 seconds, single copy is 45 as well. So basically unless you're running dual A2D and dual HE you will have serious downtime where ridiculous crits will tick on you every second, and that's before they use literally anything else.
Lastly, let's not compare this damage to that of FAW. Everyone in this thread knows that FAW damage is worthless and normally spammed by people who think their max deeps PvE ship will dominate in cap & splode... This is AoE damage on an entirely new level, that matters more than regular freaking weapons damage. Oh, and TBR never misses your #1 target...again showing that tractor beams are magical in the sense they don't ever miss, on top of the fact they don't have to worry about those pesky shields. If this makes any sense to anyone, please let me know where I can buy some Tractor Beam Dual Heavy Cannons Mk XIV [CrtD]x3, because that's what engineers would be designing if tractor beams actually did what they have become in game with 100% accuracy, 100% shield pen, and with PM 100% CrtH.
*I would honestly like to know how long warp plasma 'hangs around', if anyone can let me know.*
We talk about TBR because it is the MAIN Sci dmg skill and the only skill that really has any sustained dmg.
GW TR EWP... some torp effects are effected by PM. They increase the dmg and yes if you stack as much as you can on one target the dmg goes up.
To me its no different then a tac running DEM 2 on there escort... added dmg that is nice but not killing people alone.
PartM build TBR / EWP / GW vs. 5 DHC / Beam overload 360 Pen Doff / DEM build
Lets all get down to brass tacks here Which one is the more effective Killer ?
If you answered the PartM build... your wrong.
PartM build TBR / EWP / GW vs. 8 Beam FAW / DEM / A2B build
Which one of these is the better sustained dmg build ?
That is the real question to be asking... and to be honest its going to completely depend on the other team and what they are doing to counter. The faw has a 10k reach... and has no direct hard counters. The PartM has higher killing potential if your targets are not wise... on the reverse it can also be completely neutered and do next to nothing outside of nuke windows. (Sure in Pug matches most people won't have a clue how to counter the PartM build... which I guess is in its favor if you care about pug balance)
TBR in general, as almost all the other sci skill even with PM do insanely low damage...well yes when 3 people run it at the same time and focus on someone, unless they're stupid and isolated from every other person/pet/spam/whatever on the field, the TBR user can't really tell TBR to hit this person indiscriminately. Add more than 3 targets at once around you, and suddenly it becomes an RNG of what's being hit, and moving to accomodate only hitting one target. Using PM efficiently vs running up the scoreboard is not the same thing. Or you can do a tac palisade with fbp and lulz the scoreboard if the other team is really THAT determined to keep exploding themselves on your hull.
EWP dmg is moot. The trick 100% is to drag people through ejecting warp poo with tbr, I fully agree with this, but its the TBR doing the damage, the warp poo (doffed especially) is just a way of defeating omega, evasive, etc. Yes it does damage. The most I've ever seen a tick do is just under 1k off the top of my head without looking at an actual parse...every 3 seconds. This is a turrets level of damage. Not 3, 1 turret. EWP in itself is pretty damn broken as the amount on screen vs timer of hazards can be very unforgiving, especially when you are being forcefully pulled into it. Superman is your best friend here. I honestly do not know anyone who runs a serious pvp build without Ke'leel or his kdf/rom equal. (and lets not talk about how overly reliable the cleanse proc is, or that it clears nukes)
The biggest issue here is people are so used to shield tanking with nearly or over capped resists just pressing epts1, that suddenly their "tank" is gone. We got utterly floored by IC when they brought a shockwave build against our alpha stage PM team. They did it again recently by having an unbelievably hull heal heavy recluse that had enough hull to be -near unkillable- to TBR. Adjust your meta. Hull tanking is back in season. Elachi's, DEM, BO procs, PM + TBR. I for one welcome the end of stupidly over capped shield res and enough clickies to make a good pvp match nearly unendable time wise.
I agree, but it's another added bonus and trick to put in the 100% crth pm pile, so now anyone not running it is a fool. So take EWP away again, and you're left with the comparison of dual TBR against dual PH. TBR wins the cooldown game hands down even if you run 2 PH, if you run just one... So okay, A2D, well I guess you better run dual A2D now as well. The argument for making other builds viable is double-edged here, as it forces everyone else to run something specific.
Should a BOff ability alone really provide sustained dmg? Seriously, zero weapons required?
Isn't stacking as much damage on one target the point? We do want kills after all...
Except that DEM effects weapons, which still have to aimed at a target (again ignoring the FAW spam people). Also small bleedthrough vs 100% shield pen, not buying it.
Um, shouldn't a tac in an escort be the pinnacle for damage and killing? If it's not, then why would anyone bother.
Aux2Faw...that's an entirely different set of problems that really should be left outside of this debate. For full disclosure and to make sure it doesn't seem like I'm protecting it, I hate Aux2FAW.
Meh, FBP, Aceton Assims, use mines/pet spam...SHIELDS. Just like when people defend FBP (just don't shoot...) or TBR (A2D) here you can say, just get out of range.
Absolutely it should match up in those cases.
'no weapons' hahahahaha.
I will be honest I stopped reading right there.
That is MMO 101 ... and its why we call it META game.
"Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself."
There are counters to EVERYTHING... there are team setups that will beat X or Y or Z... the question is how much of X or Y or Z counter do you want to have on your team to try win all the time.
Pandas has popularized the PM team no doubt. There are counters to it... in fact right above you another Panda has detailed the makings of a team that does trump what we have been doing. Or at least competes with it very closely.
You don't need an entire team running dual a2d (BY the way with a doff ONE copy of a2d is UP for 24s and down for 6s... if you can't figure out how to avoid TBR dmg for 12s a min you have issues).
There is NOTHING anyone can bring to a match right now that can't be beaten 90% by team setup.
High end STO PvP... is 60% team make up, 30% team play... and 10% skill level. Most of the high end fleets are all darn close to = in terms of player skill. The rest comes down to bringing the right mix of ship/ builds and working well together.
I know exactly how to beat our team... I'm not going to detail every ship for the forums and what they should be doing... but I will tell you right now the team I am thinking about would drop them hard. Would it work well against other teams still running older meta team setups... no not really. That is the lovely thing about the meta game. What do you bring when vs who or do you try to hyrbid out the team build so you can handle it all... or do you gamble and show up with the completely wrong setup and get smoked. Its 99% of the fun.
Ok I did read some more...
1) Yes and no... Tippy top of the pile perhaps... the ONLY option for dmg. Um hell no.
2) THEY STILL ARE THE Tippy top of the Killing folks tree.
Anyone that watches a video of say a panda team beating up a preamde with multiple PM ships should look again at the match and see what is really happening.
Look at it like you have never seen a STO premade match before. Identify who is healing who is clearing who is killing things.
If you come back with its ALL TBR... then your not paying any attention at all.
So you give up 4 or 5 consoles for extra damage...now where have I seen this before...oh yeah, on every escort. Once again though the difference being, you still haven't used a single weapon or tac console slot. So one BOff ability (albeit with trait) + 4/5 consoles should equal 7/8 weapons +4/5 consoles? What a joke.
Have you ever asked a PM running ship to do nothing but shoot at you with there 6 weapons slots ? lmao
That is the real joke. If you think un buffed wepaons coming out of a sci ship likely running >50 power in there weapons is doing anything... well I know you don't believe it is.
Relax escorts are not the only dmg dealing option in the game... did you scream this much when A2B faw cruiser was the thing ?
This comparison was in response to your talk of hard/soft counters, glad you kept reading further down though afterwards (honestly, no sarcasm).
Meh, Kirk's popularized it honestly, not Pandas.
If we're going to knit-pick, it's 23 seconds up, like I said, and 7 seconds down. 14 seconds per minute, in a perfect world where you aren't effected by any debuff whatsoever, but that's not going to happen because those using it are also aware of the limitations and come prepared.
By the proper team setup, yeah I get that. What happens when you can't get on a proper team all the time? Don't queue up? Swap to your own PM ship? I fully agree this is an mmo, and teamwork is the best offense and defense, but when you queue up solo it's a 100% TRIBBLE shoot. Chances are half the team won't even have team chat open, let alone do something crazy like respond to it.