It was tested believe it or not. It was decided that 25% didn't do what they wanted it to do. (make sci ships viable dmg dealers in PvE)... so it was changed.
As Bwemo has just stated as well... it does work exactly as the tool tip describes it working.
Its working as intended.
Its also the only DMG build you can HARD COUNTER 100% of the time.
People refusing to change with the game is the only issue here.
I just don't like the 1 crit to rule them all for science powers, whether it's TBR, FBP, GW, etc because those powers tic for a while.
It actually crit rolls per pulse on tbr, per shot on fbp, per tick on grav well individually. Its just with that much crit chance, it makes virtually no observable difference without chnking logs.
Ahh I misunderstood you a bit there, sorry... sort of like the breen cluster thing you mean.
That is very true. Really though right now most of the sci PM builds have 100% crit chance anyway. Likely why I didn't think the same way.
Yeah, I could have been more clear in my original post. A lot of these science powers have clear counters, especially TBR because every ship can field a counter, be it tac heavy, eng heavy, or sci heavy.
I don't like the 100% crit chance though. I know science powers don't have the up time as energy weapons but still 100% is bad. The devs seem to want to boost exotic damage. I think it's a good thing having an alternative to conventional weapons. The new T5U science ships get a boost to exotic damage and I'm sure more boosts to exotic damage is coming. With 100% crit chance the devs aren't leaving much room before exotic damage becomes crazy OP. I'm not saying it's OP now but it can quickly become in just a few updates.
It actually crit rolls per pulse on tbr, per shot on fbp, per tick on grav well individually. Its just with that much crit chance, it makes virtually no observable difference without chnking logs.
IDK, I don't have the crafting science trait and my science powers either all crit or all don't. It's been like that for as long as I remember.
I am interested in how the other players in this forum treat the use of particle gen based skills and damage from a pvp perspective.
1. Do you think tactical should be able to boost "all dmg" with APs?
2. Do you think FBP should return more dmg than was originally dealt?
3. Do you think TBR should be direct hull dmg?
4. Do you think PartGen dmg should equal weapon dmg; if so, under what circumstances?
Opinions please. I have my bias but I would like to see what others say.
If there are any other questions you wish to pose please do so.
1. Awhile back Sci abilities had their base damage buffed a lot, but the return on Part Gen was diminished. It's analogous to saying 80% of weapon's base damage is there regardless of Weapon power. Since this change I'm more inclined to NOT have Sci abilities buffed by Tac Captain abilities. Before a Tac Captain would be much more inclined to actually spec into Sci Abilities now it's not really needed w/as high base as it has.
2. Yes w/specialty builds.
3. That's fine, TBR actually used to do more hull damage. People just stopped using things like Aux2Sif w/HE & ET. You know hull repairs. Shields got so good and w/passive hull regen/repair boosts etc people have gotten away w/low #s of hull repair boff powers for awhile now. An Engineer w/proper support layout should be able to spray around Aux2sif, HE, & ET. As others have mentioned there's other counters too.
Anecdotal story from a few years ago, I used a TBR B'rel w/Pengs and killed what was normally a tough Escort pilot b/c they didn't put in ANY hull resists for lolz b/c they were messing around w/Bugged Jem set. Fyi, it's got build in pseudo BFI boost as well.
4. Yes for specialty builds. Keep in mind part gen builds are much easier to resist & counter than other builds. Other then FBP vs high Alpha Energy damage attacks, Part Gen doesn't alpha it's a DoT.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Hmm that is interesting. I know things often change without notice like when they fixed the 1 crit chance for mines and the cluster torpedo then reverted the change a few weeks later.
It was tested believe it or not. It was decided that 25% didn't do what they wanted it to do. (make sci ships viable dmg dealers in PvE)... so it was changed.
As Bwemo has just stated as well... it does work exactly as the tool tip describes it working.
Its working as intended.
Its also the only DMG build you can HARD COUNTER 100% of the time.
People refusing to change with the game is the only issue here.
I fail to find the release note where it says it should scale with particle gen even above 25% crit chance.. if they change it, they should of had it in a release note after the initial one.
Also, I can't seem to see any official statement from PWE or Cryptic regarding this issue. Maybe you can point me in the right direction?
Also its not like its hard to deal with people overcapping their particle gens, its just utterly annoying. And im tempted to use it myself, just to show that it can be exploited to a vicious degree.
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
Also its not like its hard to deal with people overcapping their particle gens, its just utterly annoying. And im tempted to use it myself, just to show that it can be exploited to a vicious degree.
Please no... not even you...
I was respeccing my Fed tac, and Particle Generator skill crossed my mind, thinking about using a Feedback Pulse build on the Vesta. Ultimately I didn't, I don't want to fly no-skills-needed ships.
My Science captain does have Particle Generators maxed, but that's because I drain my enemy and do some CC as well to ensure it doesn't move, and such abilities will be able to deal some damage as well.
I can easily log in now, buy Fleet Particle Generators, replace Siphon and Tyken's Rift with Feedback Pulse and TBR and bring it in PvP.
But what's my ship then? No use to a team, I'm not even trying to kill someone, because all I can do is pressing those two buttons.
Sure some times someone may luck out completely and hit it at the right time. No different then someone lucking out and hitting a 50k overload on someone that just happened to get debuffed at the right time.
Baiting someone into buffing into you at the right time though yes does take some skill believe it or not. If you think it takes no skill take your feedback pulse build and fly it in a match vs any good premade. You won't get any kills at all with it... or if you do it will be early and it won't happen a second time.
I don't like the skill not because its super powerful... simply because its a one trick pony. Its easy to counter. Don't shoot. Not hard. Or shoot kinetic... it has very little effect vs another PM build as well. Nothing funnier then seeing an inept PM guy trying to kill another PM ship with a FBP. Good luck with that.
Anyway calling it a no skill way to play is no different then calling insta crit overloads no skill... or Beam overload Pen doffs no skill. Like everything in this game its how you use something, and it all comes down to timing. Really FBP is no different.
TBR isn't as reliant on timing, still its important vs good teams... and its more akin to FAW where its there for suppression dmg more then killing spike.
Sure some times someone may luck out completely and hit it at the right time. No different then someone lucking out and hitting a 50k overload on someone that just happened to get debuffed at the right time.
Baiting someone into buffing into you at the right time though yes does take some skill believe it or not. If you think it takes no skill take your feedback pulse build and fly it in a match vs any good premade. You won't get any kills at all with it... or if you do it will be early and it won't happen a second time.
I don't like the skill not because its super powerful... simply because its a one trick pony. Its easy to counter. Don't shoot. Not hard. Or shoot kinetic... it has very little effect vs another PM build as well. Nothing funnier then seeing an inept PM guy trying to kill another PM ship with a FBP. Good luck with that.
Anyway calling it a no skill way to play is no different then calling insta crit overloads no skill... or Beam overload Pen doffs no skill. Like everything in this game its how you use something, and it all comes down to timing. Really FBP is no different.
TBR isn't as reliant on timing, still its important vs good teams... and its more akin to FAW where its there for suppression dmg more then killing spike.
Only thing, you don't have control over FBP, but you do have control on Beam Overload.
Only thing, you don't have control over FBP, but you do have control on Beam Overload.
Of course you have control. There are plenty of instances where you can wisely use it knowing someone is about to decloak or an escort is switching to you... I even saw one person I know who 100% did on purpose he noticed sensor stacks building on him and predicted a team switch to him. Well timed FBP, well done... didn't make the same mistake twice, he earned the kill though.
Of course this entire conversation is rather irrelevant, because we all know cryptic isn't going to nerf/fix/adjust/change anything with their latest and greatest pay-to-win. The only chance of this ever happening will be months from now when everyone who only did the 20 hour R&D missions finally has it. Until then, it will continue to make money for them with their Mafia Wars-esque pay to finish buttons.
I was respeccing my Fed tac, and Particle Generator skill crossed my mind, thinking about using a Feedback Pulse build on the Vesta. Ultimately I didn't, I don't want to fly no-skills-needed ships.
My Science captain does have Particle Generators maxed, but that's because I drain my enemy and do some CC as well to ensure it doesn't move, and such abilities will be able to deal some damage as well.
I can easily log in now, buy Fleet Particle Generators, replace Siphon and Tyken's Rift with Feedback Pulse and TBR and bring it in PvP.
But what's my ship then? No use to a team, I'm not even trying to kill someone, because all I can do is pressing those two buttons.
Oh, i would never use feedbackpulse, i find that skill utterly useless for my playing style. But I am using attacks that would benefit from getting a crit chance on exotic dmg abilities. And i tempted to exploit this broken mecanic just to show people how broken it can become.
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
Oh, i would never use feedbackpulse, i find that skill utterly useless for my playing style. But I am using attacks that would benefit from getting a crit chance on exotic dmg abilities. And i tempted to exploit this broken mecanic just to show people how broken it can become.
Lol, just parse all PvP matches in the team arena, you'll find some where FBP and TBR crit 100% for one player eventually.
So this is the real reason why Minihax has been busy testing HGB in the last week or so. Why am I not surprised, working diligently to abuse an exploit. :rolleyes:
Of course this entire conversation is rather irrelevant, because we all know cryptic isn't going to nerf/fix/adjust/change anything with their latest and greatest pay-to-win. The only chance of this ever happening will be months from now when everyone who only did the 20 hour R&D missions finally has it. Until then, it will continue to make money for them with their Mafia Wars-esque pay to finish buttons.
This is untrue.
Only doing the 20hr I have multiple toons over 10.
By dedicating my slots to crafting CHEAP consoles a few times a day... I have more then a few toons at 15 in Sci and or Projectiles. (I have 1 toon that has 15 in both). I spent ZERO D. I did spent some EC on materials... although I didn't have to (I could have sent more material I earned from toons I wasn't bothering with to toons I was). I also was able to sell most of what I crafted and recovered my costs anyway. All said I have made a lot of EC crafting... and leveled my triats.
If people are really in a its going to take months situation, or its going to cost me to much. They are simply doing it wrong. Or they barely play the game.
By dedicating my slots to crafting CHEAP consoles a few times a day... I have more then a few toons at 15 in Sci and or Projectiles. (I have 1 toon that has 15 in both). I spent ZERO D. I did spent some EC on materials... although I didn't have to (I could have sent more material I earned from toons I wasn't bothering with to toons I was). I also was able to sell most of what I crafted and recovered my costs anyway. All said I have made a lot of EC crafting... and leveled my triats.
I did the same thing on my main toon, as I can't be bothered to actually craft on alts, only doing 20 hr missions there. My point was they (cryptic) won't touch any of these traits for any reason, until the time has come where people doing only 20 hr missions have reached level 15 in a few areas. I probably should have elaborated on that more. While the opportunity still remains with the masses to potentially spend dil to get these traits faster, nothing will be done to make these look less appealing.
its so god damned obvious this trait is bogus broken batter it isnt even funny. anyone who claims otherwise is a serious fool with a hard bias. Compare to the other craftign traits, to ANY trait, it is hella op.
If u aint saying it now u damnskippy will be when i come at u with an always crit 100k grav beam 80k first hit iso 10k per tic tbr and 10k burn pe torp. its broken.
So this is the real reason why Minihax has been busy testing HGB in the last week or so. Why am I not surprised, working diligently to abuse an exploit. :rolleyes:
I totally understand why he is doing it as well, even if the trait would give a maximum of 25% it would still be more than valid to experiment with.
I wish more people had the same mentality as him. People like him is the only reason we have such a diversity in what kind of builds people fly with. This game would be utterly boring if you faced the same build over and over. Hence the point of my first reply.. its boring facing the same fbp/tbr build over and over.
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
its so god damned obvious this trait is bogus broken batter it isnt even funny. anyone who claims otherwise is a serious fool with a hard bias. Compare to the other craftign traits, to ANY trait, it is hella op.
If u aint saying it now u damnskippy will be when i come at u with an always crit 100k grav beam 80k first hit iso 10k per tic tbr and 10k burn pe torp. its broken.
This is why i am saying what im saying, i mean, 25% is still insanly good.. but 100% is just sillyness on a stick.
25% is still worth putting an effort in creating a build around this. or making it apart of a build to scrub some extra burst out of it. But getting it close to 100% crit... jiiiz..
Ok, lets say you have 100 base in particle generators, It wouldn't require a whole lot of change to a build to get particle generators to close to 200 or abit above, and that would make 50% chance to crit.. only this by itself is kinda insane... If you already have very powerful boat, and you slot 1 +68 particle gen console + one +32 particle gen console from engineering r&d, + lets say nukara console for good messure, you will get around 217 in particle generators. This kinda of change could easily be worked into alot of existing very powerful builds... Without sacrificing much of their original dmg output or defense.
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
Just to point out something thats been said in here multiple times, the trait would be underwhelming with only 100:25. I'm not sure of any changed notes, but the original release note is a blatent typo vs what is written in game. Literally, its one word changed around. The skill functions how the game describes it.
That said, if you're dying to someone with PM, you're bad. Period. There are so many ways to not die to PM'd TBR and all have been listed multiple times. To stack to 100% crit, you will be around 30% base resist and absolutely 0 res consoles. Every PM ship is a glass cannon if it's being used properly, except the palisade which imo is a terribly slow ship to really abuse PM.
Also grats mini, told you that level of damage was possible. Next time maybe you'll listen and figure it out 2 days earlier rather than tell me I'm wrong :P
Science or at least sci ships should do more damage than escorts so all this is fine.The problem is to do in such a way that kirks and their beams dont get mad.
Science or at least sci ships should do more damage than escorts so all this is fine.The problem is to do in such a way that kirks and their beams dont get mad.
Kirks bring out the pitchforks every time Spocks outwit them with science. Most players just want to be mindless space bar heroes. Just look at the stupid "my T5U ship needs a 5th TAC console or it sucks" thread.
The thing is a fully built PM boat is not going to out damage a high quality tacscort. The scoreboard will say the sci won but if you're using that for dmg conparisson, you're gonna have a bad time. Evem scis without pm specd heavily into prtg can **** escort dmg on the scoreboard. Open a parse file, look at real numbers. Good escorts still do more dmg. A lot more.
65% of the time tbr when spammed is doing non focused aoe dmg on pets or the wrong target. Unless you like inflating numbers like that. This level of damage is less than that of a full faw boat in pvp. How many of you would vocally complain about faw supression dmg?
The thing is a fully built PM boat is not going to out damage a high quality tacscort. The scoreboard will say the sci won but if you're using that for dmg conparisson, you're gonna have a bad time. Evem scis without pm specd heavily into prtg can **** escort dmg on the scoreboard. Open a parse file, look at real numbers. Good escorts still do more dmg. A lot more.
65% of the time tbr when spammed is doing non focused aoe dmg on pets or the wrong target. Unless you like inflating numbers like that. This level of damage is less than that of a full faw boat in pvp. How many of you would vocally complain about faw supression dmg?
Comments
I just don't like the 1 crit to rule them all for science powers, whether it's TBR, FBP, GW, etc because those powers tic for a while.
GW doesn't tick at all if you pop either A2D or omega
TBR doesn't tick at all if you pop A2D... or if you pop omega and get out 5k.
FBP doesn't tick at all if you don't shoot the guy for 15s.
Every one of those has a HARD counter.
I don't like dmg that I can't do anything about accept Heal... Run away... or Jam.
got that...but I'm just talking about game design. Nothing that lasts for a while should rely on one crit check.
Ahh I misunderstood you a bit there, sorry... sort of like the breen cluster thing you mean.
That is very true. Really though right now most of the sci PM builds have 100% crit chance anyway. Likely why I didn't think the same way.
Yeah, I could have been more clear in my original post. A lot of these science powers have clear counters, especially TBR because every ship can field a counter, be it tac heavy, eng heavy, or sci heavy.
I don't like the 100% crit chance though. I know science powers don't have the up time as energy weapons but still 100% is bad. The devs seem to want to boost exotic damage. I think it's a good thing having an alternative to conventional weapons. The new T5U science ships get a boost to exotic damage and I'm sure more boosts to exotic damage is coming. With 100% crit chance the devs aren't leaving much room before exotic damage becomes crazy OP. I'm not saying it's OP now but it can quickly become in just a few updates.
IDK, I don't have the crafting science trait and my science powers either all crit or all don't. It's been like that for as long as I remember.
1. Awhile back Sci abilities had their base damage buffed a lot, but the return on Part Gen was diminished. It's analogous to saying 80% of weapon's base damage is there regardless of Weapon power. Since this change I'm more inclined to NOT have Sci abilities buffed by Tac Captain abilities. Before a Tac Captain would be much more inclined to actually spec into Sci Abilities now it's not really needed w/as high base as it has.
2. Yes w/specialty builds.
3. That's fine, TBR actually used to do more hull damage. People just stopped using things like Aux2Sif w/HE & ET. You know hull repairs. Shields got so good and w/passive hull regen/repair boosts etc people have gotten away w/low #s of hull repair boff powers for awhile now. An Engineer w/proper support layout should be able to spray around Aux2sif, HE, & ET. As others have mentioned there's other counters too.
Anecdotal story from a few years ago, I used a TBR B'rel w/Pengs and killed what was normally a tough Escort pilot b/c they didn't put in ANY hull resists for lolz b/c they were messing around w/Bugged Jem set. Fyi, it's got build in pseudo BFI boost as well.
4. Yes for specialty builds. Keep in mind part gen builds are much easier to resist & counter than other builds. Other then FBP vs high Alpha Energy damage attacks, Part Gen doesn't alpha it's a DoT.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
definatly rolls per pulse now
Hmm that is interesting. I know things often change without notice like when they fixed the 1 crit chance for mines and the cluster torpedo then reverted the change a few weeks later.
I fail to find the release note where it says it should scale with particle gen even above 25% crit chance.. if they change it, they should of had it in a release note after the initial one.
Also, I can't seem to see any official statement from PWE or Cryptic regarding this issue. Maybe you can point me in the right direction?
Also its not like its hard to deal with people overcapping their particle gens, its just utterly annoying. And im tempted to use it myself, just to show that it can be exploited to a vicious degree.
Please no... not even you...
I was respeccing my Fed tac, and Particle Generator skill crossed my mind, thinking about using a Feedback Pulse build on the Vesta. Ultimately I didn't, I don't want to fly no-skills-needed ships.
My Science captain does have Particle Generators maxed, but that's because I drain my enemy and do some CC as well to ensure it doesn't move, and such abilities will be able to deal some damage as well.
I can easily log in now, buy Fleet Particle Generators, replace Siphon and Tyken's Rift with Feedback Pulse and TBR and bring it in PvP.
But what's my ship then? No use to a team, I'm not even trying to kill someone, because all I can do is pressing those two buttons.
Sure some times someone may luck out completely and hit it at the right time. No different then someone lucking out and hitting a 50k overload on someone that just happened to get debuffed at the right time.
Baiting someone into buffing into you at the right time though yes does take some skill believe it or not. If you think it takes no skill take your feedback pulse build and fly it in a match vs any good premade. You won't get any kills at all with it... or if you do it will be early and it won't happen a second time.
I don't like the skill not because its super powerful... simply because its a one trick pony. Its easy to counter. Don't shoot. Not hard. Or shoot kinetic... it has very little effect vs another PM build as well. Nothing funnier then seeing an inept PM guy trying to kill another PM ship with a FBP. Good luck with that.
Anyway calling it a no skill way to play is no different then calling insta crit overloads no skill... or Beam overload Pen doffs no skill. Like everything in this game its how you use something, and it all comes down to timing. Really FBP is no different.
TBR isn't as reliant on timing, still its important vs good teams... and its more akin to FAW where its there for suppression dmg more then killing spike.
Only thing, you don't have control over FBP, but you do have control on Beam Overload.
Of course you have control. There are plenty of instances where you can wisely use it knowing someone is about to decloak or an escort is switching to you... I even saw one person I know who 100% did on purpose he noticed sensor stacks building on him and predicted a team switch to him. Well timed FBP, well done... didn't make the same mistake twice, he earned the kill though.
Oh, i would never use feedbackpulse, i find that skill utterly useless for my playing style. But I am using attacks that would benefit from getting a crit chance on exotic dmg abilities. And i tempted to exploit this broken mecanic just to show people how broken it can become.
Lol, just parse all PvP matches in the team arena, you'll find some where FBP and TBR crit 100% for one player eventually.
This is untrue.
Only doing the 20hr I have multiple toons over 10.
By dedicating my slots to crafting CHEAP consoles a few times a day... I have more then a few toons at 15 in Sci and or Projectiles. (I have 1 toon that has 15 in both). I spent ZERO D. I did spent some EC on materials... although I didn't have to (I could have sent more material I earned from toons I wasn't bothering with to toons I was). I also was able to sell most of what I crafted and recovered my costs anyway. All said I have made a lot of EC crafting... and leveled my triats.
If people are really in a its going to take months situation, or its going to cost me to much. They are simply doing it wrong. Or they barely play the game.
I was referring to having toons level 15 in sci just to unlock the trait.
I did the same thing on my main toon, as I can't be bothered to actually craft on alts, only doing 20 hr missions there. My point was they (cryptic) won't touch any of these traits for any reason, until the time has come where people doing only 20 hr missions have reached level 15 in a few areas. I probably should have elaborated on that more. While the opportunity still remains with the masses to potentially spend dil to get these traits faster, nothing will be done to make these look less appealing.
If u aint saying it now u damnskippy will be when i come at u with an always crit 100k grav beam 80k first hit iso 10k per tic tbr and 10k burn pe torp. its broken.
I totally understand why he is doing it as well, even if the trait would give a maximum of 25% it would still be more than valid to experiment with.
I wish more people had the same mentality as him. People like him is the only reason we have such a diversity in what kind of builds people fly with. This game would be utterly boring if you faced the same build over and over. Hence the point of my first reply.. its boring facing the same fbp/tbr build over and over.
This is why i am saying what im saying, i mean, 25% is still insanly good.. but 100% is just sillyness on a stick.
25% is still worth putting an effort in creating a build around this. or making it apart of a build to scrub some extra burst out of it. But getting it close to 100% crit... jiiiz..
Ok, lets say you have 100 base in particle generators, It wouldn't require a whole lot of change to a build to get particle generators to close to 200 or abit above, and that would make 50% chance to crit.. only this by itself is kinda insane... If you already have very powerful boat, and you slot 1 +68 particle gen console + one +32 particle gen console from engineering r&d, + lets say nukara console for good messure, you will get around 217 in particle generators. This kinda of change could easily be worked into alot of existing very powerful builds... Without sacrificing much of their original dmg output or defense.
That said, if you're dying to someone with PM, you're bad. Period. There are so many ways to not die to PM'd TBR and all have been listed multiple times. To stack to 100% crit, you will be around 30% base resist and absolutely 0 res consoles. Every PM ship is a glass cannon if it's being used properly, except the palisade which imo is a terribly slow ship to really abuse PM.
Also grats mini, told you that level of damage was possible. Next time maybe you'll listen and figure it out 2 days earlier rather than tell me I'm wrong :P
Kirks bring out the pitchforks every time Spocks outwit them with science. Most players just want to be mindless space bar heroes. Just look at the stupid "my T5U ship needs a 5th TAC console or it sucks" thread.
65% of the time tbr when spammed is doing non focused aoe dmg on pets or the wrong target. Unless you like inflating numbers like that. This level of damage is less than that of a full faw boat in pvp. How many of you would vocally complain about faw supression dmg?
Lol, FAW spam is also pretty ineffective.