Now on to the issue about what me and gameverseman was talking about which you want:
Pay per amount of zen to upgrade a starship?
OR
Would you want something better to have either grandfathered, trade in or redeem, so that you save your ships, your money, heck everything you invested that you don't have to upgrade every ship here and keep shelling money for something you already shelled for in what the "past few expansions". YES, it's investing we are talking about and reinvesting vs pay pay pay. And feel you have holes in the pockets for Perfectworld to just pick from?
On the whole "is STO really canon" and "how Cryptic's mangling the Franchise" - this is not the argument.
The argument, for this ship discussion only, revolves around Cryptic's - and by extension PWE's - attempts to "monetize" a popular portion of Star Trek gaming, specifically the ships being flown.
In this situation, "canon" is invoked over one thing. Players, myself included if the ToS Connie was to come into play at T6, especially as a Science Vessel, would pay once for their "canon" starship - then elect to ignore every further offering from Cryptic until such time as the offering was significantly more compelling to use in a gameplay aspect than my "canon ship of choice".
Obviously, if I can see that I ain't paying if "my" ship is powerful, then the beancounters see the same thing and won't let the "canon" ships become so powerful that the player's can "pay once and ride"...
So now we get to the second point. The whole "pay" thing. Whether I like it or not, the whole purpose of this expansion revolves around two things - hopefully please the players with new content and new challenges, and monetize enough stuff to please the PWE overlords (I mean PWE beancounters, but a lot of the time they're one and the same).
Now, let's examine fact #1. Cryptic has given all of us a 100% free path to T5U11 - which is theoretically "equal" to T6 as they will have +10% shields and +10% hull over a T6, and an 11th console instead of 10 consoles, the special BOff, and that 13th BOff slot.
Said path requires that the player in question has grinded out one of the 5 different "event" ships - specifically the 2 Breen ships, the 2 Risian ships, and/or the DSD during the "grindiversary". All 5 of these ships have an automatic, and free, upgrade pending. Therefore, the requirement to give F2P peeps a "bare minimum of competitiveness" has been met.
Fact #2. Look up my earlier posts for the math. Lockbox ships net Cryptic an average of $1,250 - whether from the buyer themselves or the "whales" who flood the markets with zen or master keys. Lobi ships net an average of $200. If you think a beancounter's going to spite that level of investment to get an extra $5 or $10, then you don't understand business. They can see that, if no free upgrade is provided here, nobody's gonna pay those outlandish levels of money. These ships are getting exactly what you want, a free upgrade because of major financial input.
That leaves the C-store left - both straight from the store and upgraded through the fleet path. Sadly, because they weren't "major" investments in the multi hundreds of dollars, they need that "touch up" payment. And they're not going "free" because, well, people are, and have proven, to be more than willing to pay for that touch of "canon", especially if the choices are the Breen, Risian, and DSDs.
TL;DR. Game has to be monetized somehow, somewhen, and "right now" as opposed to before within certain price ranges. This is being met while still allowing a F2P path - as long as prior requirements of being F2P were met. Come back when you can legitimately argue that the business will survive if player-desired non-monetization happens.
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
All right. *Puts Ferengi ears on* Here are a few schemes for PWE to make money:
1: Make Tier 6 version upgrade for the Tier 5 ships, and make it cost as much as getting a Tier 6 ship would.
2: Make an expensive account wide T6 upgrade. Like 10k zen or such.
3: Why do Lockbox ships get a free upgrade? You can buy them for EC on the market. If anything, Zen ships should get free upgrade, not lockbox ones.... or event ones.
4: Sell account wide "item upgrade" for zen, that boosts your items up to XIV....for zen.
5: Let Subscribers/lifers upgrade one ship to Tier 6 a month. No I'm not sub/lifer.
There, some ideas how to milk it for Cryptic. *takes Ferengi ears off*
1. There's some funky thing about the Meta, ship recognition and available abilities, blah blah that makes it where you can't have, say, escort-y Excelsiors, Scientific Galaxies spamming CC, or orange disruptors.
2. I'd rather pay $15 to upgrade my most used ships, and then catch the rest "later", than pay $100 and "forget about it"...
3. $1,250 from the whales in exchanged keys, or zen on the Dilex. $200 per lobi ship. Based off of "stated averages" and "stated odds" - math earlier in thread. Can't kill these golden geese.
Event ships get the free ride to meet that "bare minimum for F2P people to be able to compete".
4. The gear chase is what drives people to play the game. See S5 prior to the release of fleets and people being only around for the FEs.
5. Subs / Lifers get a 500 zen/month stipend. If player so desires (and upgrades are 500 zen), they could use that free monthly stipend to upgrade a ship that month.
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
On the whole "is STO really canon" and "how Cryptic's mangling the Franchise" - this is not the argument.
The argument, for this ship discussion only, revolves around Cryptic's - and by extension PWE's - attempts to "monetize" a popular portion of Star Trek gaming, specifically the ships being flown.
In this situation, "canon" is invoked over one thing. Players, myself included if the ToS Connie was to come into play at T6, especially as a Science Vessel, would pay once for their "canon" starship - then elect to ignore every further offering from Cryptic until such time as the offering was significantly more compelling to use in a gameplay aspect than my "canon ship of choice".
Obviously, if I can see that I ain't paying if "my" ship is powerful, then the beancounters see the same thing and won't let the "canon" ships become so powerful that the player's can "pay once and ride"...
So now we get to the second point. The whole "pay" thing. Whether I like it or not, the whole purpose of this expansion revolves around two things - hopefully please the players with new content and new challenges, and monetize enough stuff to please the PWE overlords (I mean PWE beancounters, but a lot of the time they're one and the same).
Now, let's examine fact #1. Cryptic has given all of us a 100% free path to T5U11 - which is theoretically "equal" to T6 as they will have +10% shields and +10% hull over a T6, and an 11th console instead of 10 consoles, the special BOff, and that 13th BOff slot.
Said path requires that the player in question has grinded out one of the 5 different "event" ships - specifically the 2 Breen ships, the 2 Risian ships, and/or the DSD during the "grindiversary". All 5 of these ships have an automatic, and free, upgrade pending. Therefore, the requirement to give F2P peeps a "bare minimum of competitiveness" has been met.
Fact #2. Look up my earlier posts for the math. Lockbox ships net Cryptic an average of $1,250 - whether from the buyer themselves or the "whales" who flood the markets with zen or master keys. Lobi ships net an average of $200. If you think a beancounter's going to spite that level of investment to get an extra $5 or $10, then you don't understand business. They can see that, if no free upgrade is provided here, nobody's gonna pay those outlandish levels of money. These ships are getting exactly what you want, a free upgrade because of major financial input.
That leaves the C-store left - both straight from the store and upgraded through the fleet path. Sadly, because they weren't "major" investments in the multi hundreds of dollars, they need that "touch up" payment. And they're not going "free" because, well, people are, and have proven, to be more than willing to pay for that touch of "canon", especially if the choices are the Breen, Risian, and DSDs.
TL;DR. Game has to be monetized somehow, somewhen, and "right now" as opposed to before within certain price ranges. This is being met while still allowing a F2P path - as long as prior requirements of being F2P were met. Come back when you can legitimately argue that the business will survive if player-desired non-monetization happens.
Dareau you.....................you don't get it. NOTHING is CANON regarding STO. The only reason why Perfectworld would even hint at it being "canon" is because Perfectworld is now on CBS's leash. Which means? If they say, "It isn't"? Then CBS could have their way with them regarding Trademark and Controlling Rights.
Now which factors back it 1:
It's an MMO, since when are things even canon much anymore?
Now onto factor 2:
Beancounters and PWE Overlords................I am guessing this is one of those conspiracy theories right?
Factor 3:
Either way as Virusdancer said it, the well you call PWE Overlords have been meeting their shareholding quota's even within the past projected year. So, either way I don't think PWE is going to lose money at all. Well even when you factor all the Lifetime Membership Subscriptions, Gold Membership Subscriptions, Lock Box Keys they sale unless the Exchange on STO messes with that one. Enough said, they're going to be happy one way or another if their getting returns on the investments. Enough said there as well.
Factor 4:
The word Investment:
Dareau, we're talking investment through the following and "following" regarding "ship builds".
1. Lock Boxes
2. Reputation
3. Fleet Projects
4. Z Store
5. Exchange
6. R and D
All the following above are means for resources for ship builds. This is regarding to the means to a ship, the consoles, the Doff's, and also yes the Boff's and Perks as well. This "is" the "investing" me and GameVerseMan had been talking about. "This" is what your PWE Overlords and Bean Counters you claim put out for us to use in ship builds. "This" is what that well $5 to $10 ship upgrade fee will result into having "us" players conflict with in having to cough out more cash so that unless we pay for the upgrade fee all "that" above will mean "Sqwuat" in regards to ship builds. I understand yes how PWE is thinking. So yes, I reject your opinion, your reality, and submit to my own. ~ Adam Savage. Done!
...they are nevertheless looking to hire a Monetization Designer.
"We are currently looking for a full-time Monetization Designer to work on our exciting new and ongoing projects. This design position is responsible for driving the monetization strategy of our games. Were looking for candidates that love to utilize game player data to make the ultimate player experience for our customers."
And here I thought I was just imagining the more blatant money grabbing :P
They must have fired the Ferengi in charge for not going far enough in monetization. I wouldn't be surprised if we start getting hit with docking fees. Or maybe ESD will start to have valet parking? "Yes Captain, you can self park in general parking, but don't be surprised when you return to your ship your warp core is missing."
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Cryptic: If you think the bugs are bad, wait until you see our fixes!
Now, let's examine fact #1. Cryptic has given all of us a 100% free path to T5U11 - which is theoretically "equal" to T6 as they will have +10% shields and +10% hull over a T6, and an 11th console instead of 10 consoles, the special BOff, and that 13th BOff slot.
T5U/T5FU will NOT have a special boff OR 13th boff ability slot.
T5FU will retain it's +10% over T5U just as Fleet currently does over standard T5. I have not seen where it was stated that T5FU has +10% over T6. There has been a statement made about the hit points being roughly equal, but that was very carefully qualified to mention "at level 50" so the scaling could be still be different so that by 60 there's a clear superiority. There was also a comment about some T5U ships "generally speaking" having more than T6, but again a qualified response about lockbox/lobi ships, specifically.
Said path requires that the player in question has grinded out one of the 5 different "event" ships - specifically the 2 Breen ships, the 2 Risian ships, and/or the DSD during the "grindiversary". All 5 of these ships have an automatic, and free, upgrade pending. Therefore, the requirement to give F2P peeps a "bare minimum of competitiveness" has been met.
Assuming they were on during specific times doing specific activities.
Not quite as universal as you try to make it sound.
Almost nothing from "fact #1" is even true, so I'm not even going to bother with the rest.
And here I thought I was just imagining the more blatant money grabbing :P
What we'd like to see:
2+ years of industry experience.
Credit on at least one previous shipped F2P game title
Passion for monetization and online games
Solid understanding of the F2P business model
MMO experience as player or designer
4-year degree required (or equivalent experience in relevant field)
So they want an economic specialist who also plays MMOs and helped make one before.
Damn, this is almost like looking for that millionarie supermodel that wants to be your wife and help you play videogames for the rest of your lives.....
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
On the whole "is STO really canon" and "how Cryptic's mangling the Franchise" - this is not the argument.
The argument, for this ship discussion only, revolves around Cryptic's - and by extension PWE's - attempts to "monetize" a popular portion of Star Trek gaming, specifically the ships being flown.
In this situation, "canon" is invoked over one thing. Players, myself included if the ToS Connie was to come into play at T6, especially as a Science Vessel, would pay once for their "canon" starship - then elect to ignore every further offering from Cryptic until such time as the offering was significantly more compelling to use in a gameplay aspect than my "canon ship of choice".
Obviously, if I can see that I ain't paying if "my" ship is powerful, then the beancounters see the same thing and won't let the "canon" ships become so powerful that the player's can "pay once and ride"...
So now we get to the second point. The whole "pay" thing. Whether I like it or not, the whole purpose of this expansion revolves around two things - hopefully please the players with new content and new challenges, and monetize enough stuff to please the PWE overlords (I mean PWE beancounters, but a lot of the time they're one and the same).
Now, let's examine fact #1. Cryptic has given all of us a 100% free path to T5U11 - which is theoretically "equal" to T6 as they will have +10% shields and +10% hull over a T6, and an 11th console instead of 10 consoles, the special BOff, and that 13th BOff slot.
Said path requires that the player in question has grinded out one of the 5 different "event" ships - specifically the 2 Breen ships, the 2 Risian ships, and/or the DSD during the "grindiversary". All 5 of these ships have an automatic, and free, upgrade pending. Therefore, the requirement to give F2P peeps a "bare minimum of competitiveness" has been met.
Fact #2. Look up my earlier posts for the math. Lockbox ships net Cryptic an average of $1,250 - whether from the buyer themselves or the "whales" who flood the markets with zen or master keys. Lobi ships net an average of $200. If you think a beancounter's going to spite that level of investment to get an extra $5 or $10, then you don't understand business. They can see that, if no free upgrade is provided here, nobody's gonna pay those outlandish levels of money. These ships are getting exactly what you want, a free upgrade because of major financial input.
That leaves the C-store left - both straight from the store and upgraded through the fleet path. Sadly, because they weren't "major" investments in the multi hundreds of dollars, they need that "touch up" payment. And they're not going "free" because, well, people are, and have proven, to be more than willing to pay for that touch of "canon", especially if the choices are the Breen, Risian, and DSDs.
TL;DR. Game has to be monetized somehow, somewhen, and "right now" as opposed to before within certain price ranges. This is being met while still allowing a F2P path - as long as prior requirements of being F2P were met. Come back when you can legitimately argue that the business will survive if player-desired non-monetization happens.
"Come back when you can legitimately argue that the business will survive if player-desired non-monetization happens."
Ummmm actually there are lots of MMO's that survive on Non-Monetization. They're called Free to Play. Lets see, APB Reloaded, World of Tanks, World of Warplanes, War Thunder, Uncharted Online, Shaiya. Are just to name a few. Anyways the point is there are MMO's that exist in such a means.
Dareau you.....................you don't get it. NOTHING is CANON regarding STO. The only reason why Perfectworld would even hint at it being "canon" is because Perfectworld is now on CBS's leash. Which means? If they say, "It isn't"? Then CBS could have their way with them regarding Trademark and Controlling Rights.
Now which factors back it 1:
It's an MMO, since when are things even canon much anymore?
Now onto factor 2:
Beancounters and PWE Overlords................I am guessing this is one of those conspiracy theories right?
Factor 3:
Either way as Virusdancer said it, the well you call PWE Overlords have been meeting their shareholding quota's even within the past projected year. So, either way I don't think PWE is going to lose money at all. Well even when you factor all the Lifetime Membership Subscriptions, Gold Membership Subscriptions, Lock Box Keys they sale unless the Exchange on STO messes with that one. Enough said, they're going to be happy one way or another if their getting returns on the investments. Enough said there as well.
Factor 4:
The word Investment:
Dareau, we're talking investment through the following and "following" regarding "ship builds".
1. Lock Boxes
2. Reputation
3. Fleet Projects
4. Z Store
5. Exchange
6. R and D
All the following above are means for resources for ship builds. This is regarding to the means to a ship, the consoles, the Doff's, and also yes the Boff's and Perks as well. This "is" the "investing" me and GameVerseMan had been talking about. "This" is what your PWE Overlords and Bean Counters you claim put out for us to use in ship builds. "This" is what that well $5 to $10 ship upgrade fee will result into having "us" players conflict with in having to cough out more cash so that unless we pay for the upgrade fee all "that" above will mean "Sqwuat" in regards to ship builds. I understand yes how PWE is thinking. So yes, I reject your opinion, your reality, and submit to my own. ~ Adam Savage. Done!
1. The only Canon I'm looking at is the fact that the Galaxy, Galaxy X, Intrepid, Connie, Defiant, etc. etc. have been on a screen of some sort, whether TV or movie, while just about everything else (Vesta, Oddy, Regent's base skin, Avenger, etc. hasn't.
1A - Per the argument you're thinking I'm running with, I'd be saying that if there ever was a new series set in the future of the Prime Universe (which includes STO), they're supposed to acknowledge the Romulan Republic was flagshipped by a Reman Scimitar, etc. etc.
2. Sad humor, but sometimes all but true in the business world - decisions have to be vetted by the beancounters / accountants to ensure that the proper RoI, etc. that makes the business world go around happen in the favorable methods...
3. Yes, those reports cited by Virusdancer indicate that - even though PWE's claiming losing a third of their PC logger-inners - they're still doing well enough off as a company that the shareholders aren't telling the bosses to tell the beancounters to make them more money. However, that does not mean that the bosses aren't telling the beancounters to help make "less profitable" games more profitable, or telling the devs that they need to come up with stuff that not only makes them money but gets these people back.
4. Your ship build is not being rendered invalid because DR launches. No mechanic is suddenly gonna turn your 20k DPS Scimitar into a 10k one. A Mk XII purple is just as powerful today as it will be tomorrow. Your claims of "loss of investment" are fail. On the day after DR launches, gather up a 5 pack of non-upgraded 20k Scimitars and run an "unadjusted" ISE. See if you need the full 15 minutes to get the optional, or does it still take the mighty 3 minutes.
Show me where any advertisement explicitly states that T5x is "endgame". Or that Mk XII is "endgame". And that either of these will be "endgame" for the remainder of the existence of STO. Then I might sympathize with your plight...
If you look at established history:
1. When I started in S5, the T5+1 ships were the most powerful examples of ships in the game. Season 6 made the fleet, aka T5.5 ships, the most powerful ones. Notice that there are pay for fleet versions of the T5+1 ships in the fleetyards. Exhibit #1 for "C-store ships will be pay to upgrade".
2. When T5.5 / Fleet was released, any lockbox ship at the time that did not meet the fleet standards (+10% hull & shields over the T5/5+1 versions, 10th console) received a free upgrade to the T5.5 status - because of the "average" $1,250 Cryptic made for the RNG to spit one of these ships out of a lockbox. To rehash, $1.25 per key, .1% of lockboxes spit out lockbox prize ships. Exhibit #1, massive influxes of cash to generate a ship = free upgrade. Does not matter if said ship was bought off the exchange, or the key to do it was from the exchange or the buyer traded Dil for some zen on the Dilex. Cryptic got their money from someone (most likely a "whale")...
3. Lobi ships are an average of $200. Average of 5 lobi per box, 800 per ship - means about 160 boxes, at $1.25/box... Exhibit #2, massive influx of cash = free upgrade.
4. Release of 5 modifier "ultraviolet" Mk XIIs did not generate an automatic modifier addition to every existing piece of Mk XII gear, the players needed to grind the appropriate fleet locations, provisions, credits and dilithium to get them. Did you cry that your Mk XII [Borg] stuff was suddenly useless with them. Exhibit #1, power creep invalidating equipment.
Again, I can't emphasize this enough. Tier 5.5 "fleet" and Mk XII are not "endgame", they just happen to be the most powerful equipment available today. History does not shine well on the "then current maximum" getting a free lift to "the new maximum". Give me a valid reason/rationale why this time should be different other than "I want a free, and grindless, ride"...
T5U/T5FU will NOT have a special boff OR 13th boff ability slot.
T5FU will retain it's +10% over T5U just as Fleet currently does over standard T5. I have not seen where it was stated that T5FU has +10% over T6. There has been a statement made about the hit points being roughly equal, but that was very carefully qualified to mention "at level 50" so the scaling could be still be different so that by 60 there's a clear superiority. There was also a comment about some T5U ships "generally speaking" having more than T6, but again a qualified response about lockbox/lobi ships, specifically.
Assuming they were on during specific times doing specific activities.
Not quite as universal as you try to make it sound.
Almost nothing from "fact #1" is even true, so I'm not even going to bother with the rest.
According to Geko - please dev tracker his posts instead of relying on my word alone - at the end of the "T6 ships levelling process", it will have +10% hull and +10% shields over the basic Tier 5 ships. Which then inferrs that, since T5.5s have the same +10% hull and +10% shields, as far as hull/shield and # of console stats, a maxxed out T6 will be statistically identical to an "unupgraded" T5.5 "fleet" ship.
He also states that all T5s that draw the upgrade receive the same +10% extra hull, +10% extra shield, and an extra console as part of the upgrade to T5U. Obviously, on, say, my 9 console Galaxy-X from the C-store, it'll wind up with 10 consoles and the hull/shield bonus (making it identical, statistically, to the Fleet version). However, applying that same bonus to the fleet version with it's 10th console and pre-existing bonuses means that it'll have ~20% more hull and shields than a basic T5, and an 11th console. Compared to the "claimed" T6 being +10% bigger than the basic T5s, well, do the math...
And do note that I prefaced that statement with "said path requires that the player..." I know that the "true F2P Path to T5U11" is not universal, just that if you've been a dedicated grinder and here for more than just DR then said player most likely has at least one of the 5 ships...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
1. The only Canon I'm looking at is the fact that the Galaxy, Galaxy X, Intrepid, Connie, Defiant, etc. etc. have been on a screen of some sort, whether TV or movie, while just about everything else (Vesta, Oddy, Regent's base skin, Avenger, etc. hasn't.
Just wanted to state that as far as canon goes Vesta is more canon than the entirety of STO as it was established in a Trek based book. That said, Vesta is the only ship in the game that falls under that category currently. FYI, Order of priority in canon goes like this:
1. On Screen
2. Trek Novels
3. Trek Games and Comics
Anything from a spot on the list making a contradiction with something below it on the list cancels out the lore from the item lower on the list. Same applies in any major franchise first established as a TV series or movie which expanded to those other realms later. For the most part games and comics are never considered canon, just fun little content to play and ignore long-term story implications. This system was setup by Paramount and continued as CBS took direct control after doing the same with their management of Paramount.
The Vesta was added to the game at the long term request of Trek Lit fans, where the ship had been well fleshed out in it's abilities and appearance long before Cryptic worked up their own for the game. While it is 'soft canon' as it came from literature, it is still as canon as any other Trek lit reference that permeates this game.
According to Geko - please dev tracker his posts instead of relying on my word alone - at the end of the "T6 ships levelling process", it will have +10% hull and +10% shields over the basic Tier 5 ships. Which then inferrs that, since T5.5s have the same +10% hull and +10% shields, as far as hull/shield and # of console stats, a maxxed out T6 will be statistically identical to an "unupgraded" T5.5 "fleet" ship.
He also states that all T5s that draw the upgrade receive the same +10% extra hull, +10% extra shield, and an extra console as part of the upgrade to T5U. Obviously, on, say, my 9 console Galaxy-X from the C-store, it'll wind up with 10 consoles and the hull/shield bonus (making it identical, statistically, to the Fleet version). However, applying that same bonus to the fleet version with it's 10th console and pre-existing bonuses means that it'll have ~20% more hull and shields than a basic T5, and an 11th console. Compared to the "claimed" T6 being +10% bigger than the basic T5s, well, do the math...
But nowhere has it been said that over those 10 levels T6 and T5U gain health/shields at the same rate. That simple fact leaves this conclusion an assumption and not fact, regardless of how many statements are tied together to reach it as we are still missing critical numbers to prove that to be the end result of the equation.
1. The only Canon I'm looking at is the fact that the Galaxy, Galaxy X, Intrepid, Connie, Defiant, etc. etc. have been on a screen of some sort, whether TV or movie, while just about everything else (Vesta, Oddy, Regent's base skin, Avenger, etc. hasn't.
1A - Per the argument you're thinking I'm running with, I'd be saying that if there ever was a new series set in the future of the Prime Universe (which includes STO), they're supposed to acknowledge the Romulan Republic was flagshipped by a Reman Scimitar, etc. etc.
2. Sad humor, but sometimes all but true in the business world - decisions have to be vetted by the beancounters / accountants to ensure that the proper RoI, etc. that makes the business world go around happen in the favorable methods...
3. Yes, those reports cited by Virusdancer indicate that - even though PWE's claiming losing a third of their PC logger-inners - they're still doing well enough off as a company that the shareholders aren't telling the bosses to tell the beancounters to make them more money. However, that does not mean that the bosses aren't telling the beancounters to help make "less profitable" games more profitable, or telling the devs that they need to come up with stuff that not only makes them money but gets these people back.
4. Your ship build is not being rendered invalid because DR launches. No mechanic is suddenly gonna turn your 20k DPS Scimitar into a 10k one. A Mk XII purple is just as powerful today as it will be tomorrow. Your claims of "loss of investment" are fail. On the day after DR launches, gather up a 5 pack of non-upgraded 20k Scimitars and run an "unadjusted" ISE. See if you need the full 15 minutes to get the optional, or does it still take the mighty 3 minutes.
Show me where any advertisement explicitly states that T5x is "endgame". Or that Mk XII is "endgame". And that either of these will be "endgame" for the remainder of the existence of STO. Then I might sympathize with your plight...
If you look at established history:
1. When I started in S5, the T5+1 ships were the most powerful examples of ships in the game. Season 6 made the fleet, aka T5.5 ships, the most powerful ones. Notice that there are pay for fleet versions of the T5+1 ships in the fleetyards. Exhibit #1 for "C-store ships will be pay to upgrade".
2. When T5.5 / Fleet was released, any lockbox ship at the time that did not meet the fleet standards (+10% hull & shields over the T5/5+1 versions, 10th console) received a free upgrade to the T5.5 status - because of the "average" $1,250 Cryptic made for the RNG to spit one of these ships out of a lockbox. To rehash, $1.25 per key, .1% of lockboxes spit out lockbox prize ships. Exhibit #1, massive influxes of cash to generate a ship = free upgrade. Does not matter if said ship was bought off the exchange, or the key to do it was from the exchange or the buyer traded Dil for some zen on the Dilex. Cryptic got their money from someone (most likely a "whale")...
3. Lobi ships are an average of $200. Average of 5 lobi per box, 800 per ship - means about 160 boxes, at $1.25/box... Exhibit #2, massive influx of cash = free upgrade.
4. Release of 5 modifier "ultraviolet" Mk XIIs did not generate an automatic modifier addition to every existing piece of Mk XII gear, the players needed to grind the appropriate fleet locations, provisions, credits and dilithium to get them. Did you cry that your Mk XII [Borg] stuff was suddenly useless with them. Exhibit #1, power creep invalidating equipment.
Again, I can't emphasize this enough. Tier 5.5 "fleet" and Mk XII are not "endgame", they just happen to be the most powerful equipment available today. History does not shine well on the "then current maximum" getting a free lift to "the new maximum". Give me a valid reason/rationale why this time should be different other than "I want a free, and grindless, ride"...
According to Geko - please dev tracker his posts instead of relying on my word alone - at the end of the "T6 ships levelling process", it will have +10% hull and +10% shields over the basic Tier 5 ships. Which then inferrs that, since T5.5s have the same +10% hull and +10% shields, as far as hull/shield and # of console stats, a maxxed out T6 will be statistically identical to an "unupgraded" T5.5 "fleet" ship.
He also states that all T5s that draw the upgrade receive the same +10% extra hull, +10% extra shield, and an extra console as part of the upgrade to T5U. Obviously, on, say, my 9 console Galaxy-X from the C-store, it'll wind up with 10 consoles and the hull/shield bonus (making it identical, statistically, to the Fleet version). However, applying that same bonus to the fleet version with it's 10th console and pre-existing bonuses means that it'll have ~20% more hull and shields than a basic T5, and an 11th console. Compared to the "claimed" T6 being +10% bigger than the basic T5s, well, do the math...
And do note that I prefaced that statement with "said path requires that the player..." I know that the "true F2P Path to T5U11" is not universal, just that if you've been a dedicated grinder and here for more than just DR then said player most likely has at least one of the 5 ships...
1. It's a game, and PWE has to adhere to CBS. Done
1A: Now about one leading from thread.
2: Really, the obsession with beans and overlords. Leading away from thread.
3: Virusdancer right, and yes still leading away from thread.
4: Didn't grasp issue, charge fee to upgrade ship to new expansion. Related but illrelevant.
"Show me where any advertisement explicitly states that T5x is "endgame". Or that Mk XII is "endgame". And that either of these will be "endgame" for the remainder of the existence of STO. Then I might sympathize with your plight..."
I could swear challenging define as provocation. Highly illogical.
"According to Geko - please dev tracker his posts instead of relying on my word alone - at the end of the "T6 ships levelling process", it will have +10% hull and +10% shields over the basic Tier 5 ships. Which then inferrs that, since T5.5s have the same +10% hull and +10% shields, as far as hull/shield and # of console stats, a maxxed out T6 will be statistically identical to an "unupgraded" T5.5 "fleet" ship."
Yes like Virusdancer said, already articale done about that.
And do note that I prefaced that statement with "said path requires that the player..." I know that the "true F2P Path to T5U11" is not universal, just that if you've been a dedicated grinder and here for more than just DR then said player most likely has at least one of the 5 ships...[/QUOTE]
Just wanted to state that as far as canon goes Vesta is more canon than the entirety of STO as it was established in a Trek based book. That said, Vesta is the only ship in the game that falls under that category currently. FYI, Order of priority in canon goes like this:
1. On Screen
2. Trek Novels
3. Trek Games and Comics
Anything from a spot on the list making a contradiction with something below it on the list cancels out the lore from the item lower on the list. Same applies in any major franchise first established as a TV series or movie which expanded to those other realms later. For the most part games and comics are never considered canon, just fun little content to play and ignore long-term story implications. This system was setup by Paramount and continued as CBS took direct control after doing the same with their management of Paramount.
The Vesta was added to the game at the long term request of Trek Lit fans, where the ship had been well fleshed out in it's abilities and appearance long before Cryptic worked up their own for the game. While it is 'soft canon' as it came from literature, it is still as canon as any other Trek lit reference that permeates this game.
But nowhere has it been said that over those 10 levels T6 and T5U gain health/shields at the same rate. That simple fact leaves this conclusion an assumption and not fact, regardless of how many statements are tied together to reach it as we are still missing critical numbers to prove that to be the end result of the equation.
Actually again canon, illrelevant from thread. Also novels are debateable to any genre and franchise as canon. Lets see Star Trek: The Return, by William Shatner. Debateable, and illogical. Period. As far as games go, again CBS does not reconize any of the following games itself from the Interplay and onward and yes that includes Klingon Academy as part of their canon. So video games canon? Invalid. Now on screen? Yes that can be canon being that both Paramount and CBS well since CBS controls the rights to all the old movies do classify that as canon. So yes that is valid. Out of best two out of three I say majority goes to invalid. Illogical.
24.2ANY APPLICABLE ZEN, FEES AND OTHER CHARGES ARE PAYABLE IN ADVANCE AND NON REFUNDABLE. ZEN HAVE NO MONETARY VALUE AND CANNOT BE REDEEMED FOR CASH. ZEN AND THE RIGHT TO USE APPLICABLE ZEN ARE NON-TRANSFERABLE, IN WHOLE OR PART. THE RIGHT TO USE ZEN IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE LICENSE TO USE THE SERVICE AND GAME.
While the EULA, may say that Zen doesn't have a monetary value, Accounting will say different. And usually the EULA is protect the company from reprisals from customers. If they did not state Zen had no monetary value, a case could be made for customers to exchange dilithium into zen, and then into cash.
At the hospital I used to work at, we had Volunteers who performed certain duties. These duties included (but not limited to) delivering items to patients and medical units, working in the gift shop, and answering phones. For some reason, a financial report was mistakenly published for all employees to see. Even though the volunteers made zero dollars for their time, accounting had to place a dollar amount on the hours the volunteers performed their duties.
When a zen purchase is made, Accounting takes notice of the purchase and to which game the zen is sent to. That game gets the monetary amount, used to purchase the zen, as an income. That is how it has a monetary value, for them, not us.
You can get refunds for Kumari weapons. It may be in dill, but you can use zen to get dill to get weapons to get dill to get zen.
...none of which say what you said there either though. Instead we have:
So a T5-U (11 console) has +1 console, as well as +hull/shields compared to a Standard T6 (10 console) ship.
Which is a comparison between the T5-U (11 console) and the T5-U (10 console)...no comparison to the T6 - which was already compared to the T5-U (11 console) previously, with the Standard T6 have -1 console & -hull/shields compared to the T5-U (11 console).
So uh, not only do we not see what you said Geko said...we actually see gorngonzolla saying quite the opposite.
Can you provide some links for where you got the info in your post I quoted up there?
I appreciate you linking all that, I had literally just gathered the same info up and was about to start the reply :9.
However, I will again point out the very, very targeted nature of his subjects.
He was referring specifically about "existing lockbox ships" which will "generally have superior hull and shield mods" and we should be careful not to assume that is true of all T5U11 ships and by extension how T5U10 ships will compare.
Another problem with the system they've devised...the convoluted array of designators we have to use and how easy it is to blur the lines. T5, T5.5, T5U, T5U10, T5U11, T5FU...
I appreciate you linking all that, I had literally just gathered the same info up and was about to start the reply :9.
However, I will again point out the very, very targeted nature of his subjects.
He was referring specifically about "existing lockbox ships" which will "generally have superior hull and shield mods" and we should be careful not to assume that is true of all T5U11 ships and by extension how T5U10 ships will compare.
Another problem with the system they've devised...the convoluted array of designators we have to use and how easy it is to blur the lines. T5, T5.5, T5U, T5U10, T5U11, T5FU...
Much of this T5 U business seems convoluted to me.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I really wouldn't give a TRIBBLE about any of this if it was just sold to me in a FUN way. If my Doffs and R&D guys could be sent off to upgrade my T5 ships with step by step benefits, hell, maybe I'd be happy to blow 1000 zen scrounging components to build it myself. Would it just be another grind? Maybe - it would depend on how such a system was executed.
But if a game is going to launch a system like this as a Zynga type cash grab? ... well that's where things get ugly don't they.
lots of stuff that mentions you might have read what I said and found a way to summarily dismiss it instead of address it...
Okay. The challenge, as I've been presenting it all day:
1. You are part of a group that believes that the entire T5U / T6 / Mk XIV / etc. etc. release of Delta Rising needs to be handed to players on a silver platter because it "invalidates" - specifically through overpowering - the "current endgame paradigm" of T5.5 "Fleet" ships and Mk XII "Ultraviolet" / Fleet level gears being the high end.
And it is not to be done with the handing out of some blue scanlined 4 nacelled cruiser, it needs to be the exact ship the player wants to fly. Whether they own it today or not.
2. Your justification for said claim stands strictly on the amount of grind/finances you've invested into the game to this point.
Am I right? Do I have your position clear?
If so, then:
1. I spell out, in no uncertain terms, that previous raises to the "endgame power level" bar was not met with a corresponding free pile of gifts - outside of Lockbox grade ships.
To me, this pulls the rug out from under your position 1, which is the heart of your entire belief system.
2. Are you aware of how a for-profit company works? Each quarter, they count the $$$ that come in only during that quarter. They count the $$$ that leave in that quarter. If In > Out, profit. If In < Out, loss. Profit = Good, Loss = Bad.
Existing good profit reports do not mean that the next profit report will be good as well. They need to repeat the amount of incomes each quarter, preferably without spending as much money.
Therefore, this expansion is an obvious, blatant attempt, to drain money out of our pockets this quarter. Next quarter, they'll have some new shiny (possibly T6 Fleet) to do the same. This is not a fact that I will dispute. I will continue to pull the rug out of any belief that seems to revolve around getting something for nothing, or that PWE's current good profit should automatically slide over into another quarter and/or give us things that they aren't planning on giving us.
At the same time, I'm arguing both the reason that T5U is getting a "separate but equal" treatment over a full on T6 treatment - through the careful application of human nature - as related to Star Trek Fan Gamers, and the careful application of "canon".
Geko has spelled out that part of the difference is because, as demonstrated in the previews, T6 will be 100% Cryptic designs that deviate greatly from the "established lore" of ship design. Blue hulls and Scanlines on Feds are quite the departure...
Now, human nature tells us that, as far as starship selection goes, we're gonna fly our favorite ship if it's available. The only thing that pries us from our favorite ship would be a compelling, significant, game-related reason. Occasionally, there will be a balance in "fugly but passable because of the extra power". Oddessy and Avenger fans demonstrate this almost every time you see one, occasionally you'll find someone who genuinely loves the look of the ship - power level be ignored. Obviously, if T6 ships have "significant new powers" that the canon T5Us don't - we're gonna abandon our favorite ships for them. Too many players are wanting - in this thread - to "fix" the "canon + powerful" stance that players naturally want (our cake - the looks we want. The eating - max level power). However, they're rolling with "separate but equal" so that people who would leave if they weren't "competitive" would have a reason to stay, and to take a spin or 30 in Cryptic's new toys...
Again, I believe that I've read how the maths will play out in the attempt to run "separate but equal" - especially in the comparison between T5U11 (ex fleet-grade ships upgraded) vs the entire stat suite advertised for T6. I try to disclaim that until we see everything about T6 - what the new BOff will do, what strength the 13th BOff slot will be, what the actual costs are gonna run us - I can't say for certain that the goal has been met...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
My bad on the Geko/Gornzilla thing. Standing corrected. Will review to find the exact statements that's leading me to my math later...
Okay. The challenge, as I've been presenting it all day:
1. You are part of a group that believes that the entire T5U / T6 / Mk XIV / etc. etc. release of Delta Rising needs to be handed to players on a silver platter because it "invalidates" - specifically through overpowering - the "current endgame paradigm" of T5.5 "Fleet" ships and Mk XII "Ultraviolet" / Fleet level gears being the high end.
And it is not to be done with the handing out of some blue scanlined 4 nacelled cruiser, it needs to be the exact ship the player wants to fly. Whether they own it today or not.
2. Your justification for said claim stands strictly on the amount of grind/finances you've invested into the game to this point.
Am I right? Do I have your position clear?
If so, then:
1. I spell out, in no uncertain terms, that previous raises to the "endgame power level" bar was not met with a corresponding free pile of gifts - outside of Lockbox grade ships.
To me, this pulls the rug out from under your position 1, which is the heart of your entire belief system.
2. Are you aware of how a for-profit company works? Each quarter, they count the $$$ that come in only during that quarter. They count the $$$ that leave in that quarter. If In > Out, profit. If In < Out, loss. Profit = Good, Loss = Bad.
Existing good profit reports do not mean that the next profit report will be good as well. They need to repeat the amount of incomes each quarter, preferably without spending as much money.
Therefore, this expansion is an obvious, blatant attempt, to drain money out of our pockets this quarter. Next quarter, they'll have some new shiny (possibly T6 Fleet) to do the same. This is not a fact that I will dispute. I will continue to pull the rug out of any belief that seems to revolve around getting something for nothing, or that PWE's current good profit should automatically slide over into another quarter and/or give us things that they aren't planning on giving us.
At the same time, I'm arguing both the reason that T5U is getting a "separate but equal" treatment over a full on T6 treatment - through the careful application of human nature - as related to Star Trek Fan Gamers, and the careful application of "canon".
Geko has spelled out that part of the difference is because, as demonstrated in the previews, T6 will be 100% Cryptic designs that deviate greatly from the "established lore" of ship design. Blue hulls and Scanlines on Feds are quite the departure...
Now, human nature tells us that, as far as starship selection goes, we're gonna fly our favorite ship if it's available. The only thing that pries us from our favorite ship would be a compelling, significant, game-related reason. Occasionally, there will be a balance in "fugly but passable because of the extra power". Oddessy and Avenger fans demonstrate this almost every time you see one, occasionally you'll find someone who genuinely loves the look of the ship - power level be ignored. Obviously, if T6 ships have "significant new powers" that the canon T5Us don't - we're gonna abandon our favorite ships for them. Too many players are wanting - in this thread - to "fix" the "canon + powerful" stance that players naturally want (our cake - the looks we want. The eating - max level power). However, they're rolling with "separate but equal" so that people who would leave if they weren't "competitive" would have a reason to stay, and to take a spin or 30 in Cryptic's new toys...
Again, I believe that I've read how the maths will play out in the attempt to run "separate but equal" - especially in the comparison between T5U11 (ex fleet-grade ships upgraded) vs the entire stat suite advertised for T6. I try to disclaim that until we see everything about T6 - what the new BOff will do, what strength the 13th BOff slot will be, what the actual costs are gonna run us - I can't say for certain that the goal has been met...
1: Said crowd of players..................Labeling, sterotyping, and of course illrelevant again to argument.
2: Things to be handed on a silver platter.............again outside of total context of agrument when the relevant argument was over the fact a fee should not be charged just to upgrade a Tier V starship.
3: The issue is Tier V Starship Upgrades, and not the concerns over how a corporation or even Fortune 500 company works. Babbling, bagering, and also spoon feeding words into someone.
4: Charging for a Starship Upgrade was outlined in the "Developers Blog" by Perfectworld itself.
Dareau, I have to say it. All you want is to get the last word, you take the game too seriously in regards to STO, the business aspect of Perfectworld as well as STO. It's a game, canon can be debated, so can profits, and both THAT is something that is all relative for another thread. You mad bro?
My bad on the Geko/Gornzilla thing. Standing corrected. Will review to find the exact statements that's leading me to my math later...
Okay. The challenge, as I've been presenting it all day:
1. You are part of a group that believes that the entire T5U / T6 / Mk XIV / etc. etc. release of Delta Rising needs to be handed to players on a silver platter because it "invalidates" - specifically through overpowering - the "current endgame paradigm" of T5.5 "Fleet" ships and Mk XII "Ultraviolet" / Fleet level gears being the high end.
And it is not to be done with the handing out of some blue scanlined 4 nacelled cruiser, it needs to be the exact ship the player wants to fly. Whether they own it today or not.
2. Your justification for said claim stands strictly on the amount of grind/finances you've invested into the game to this point.
Am I right? Do I have your position clear?
If so, then:
1. I spell out, in no uncertain terms, that previous raises to the "endgame power level" bar was not met with a corresponding free pile of gifts - outside of Lockbox grade ships.
To me, this pulls the rug out from under your position 1, which is the heart of your entire belief system.
2. Are you aware of how a for-profit company works? Each quarter, they count the $$$ that come in only during that quarter. They count the $$$ that leave in that quarter. If In > Out, profit. If In < Out, loss. Profit = Good, Loss = Bad.
Existing good profit reports do not mean that the next profit report will be good as well. They need to repeat the amount of incomes each quarter, preferably without spending as much money.
Therefore, this expansion is an obvious, blatant attempt, to drain money out of our pockets this quarter. Next quarter, they'll have some new shiny (possibly T6 Fleet) to do the same. This is not a fact that I will dispute. I will continue to pull the rug out of any belief that seems to revolve around getting something for nothing, or that PWE's current good profit should automatically slide over into another quarter and/or give us things that they aren't planning on giving us.
At the same time, I'm arguing both the reason that T5U is getting a "separate but equal" treatment over a full on T6 treatment - through the careful application of human nature - as related to Star Trek Fan Gamers, and the careful application of "canon".
Geko has spelled out that part of the difference is because, as demonstrated in the previews, T6 will be 100% Cryptic designs that deviate greatly from the "established lore" of ship design. Blue hulls and Scanlines on Feds are quite the departure...
Now, human nature tells us that, as far as starship selection goes, we're gonna fly our favorite ship if it's available. The only thing that pries us from our favorite ship would be a compelling, significant, game-related reason. Occasionally, there will be a balance in "fugly but passable because of the extra power". Oddessy and Avenger fans demonstrate this almost every time you see one, occasionally you'll find someone who genuinely loves the look of the ship - power level be ignored. Obviously, if T6 ships have "significant new powers" that the canon T5Us don't - we're gonna abandon our favorite ships for them. Too many players are wanting - in this thread - to "fix" the "canon + powerful" stance that players naturally want (our cake - the looks we want. The eating - max level power). However, they're rolling with "separate but equal" so that people who would leave if they weren't "competitive" would have a reason to stay, and to take a spin or 30 in Cryptic's new toys...
Again, I believe that I've read how the maths will play out in the attempt to run "separate but equal" - especially in the comparison between T5U11 (ex fleet-grade ships upgraded) vs the entire stat suite advertised for T6. I try to disclaim that until we see everything about T6 - what the new BOff will do, what strength the 13th BOff slot will be, what the actual costs are gonna run us - I can't say for certain that the goal has been met...
And also as before Virusdancer did ask you to show the link for all relative related data regarding all of this. As far as we all are concerned on this thread this whole bit of what you are throwing out there is conjecture and open to interpretation Dareau. So whatever your equations, data, and even conclusions tell you. Plain and simple..................unless Perfectworld "confirms" it. Then your idea of canon is illrelevant, as well as open to debate. That goes for upgrades, Tier VI Starships, and even all the bells and whistles which include all the tea in China.
You can get refunds for Kumari weapons. It may be in dill, but you can use zen to get dill to get weapons to get dill to get zen.
Wasn't that because they were bugged and wasn't that bug fixed? The situation is a little different as ships aren't bugged and are working as designed.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
My main concern is that it still seems that the T6 ships that will be offered will be the ships to have. If the T6's end up looking anything like the picture in the explanation of T6 ships, an appearance only a mother could love, we really need to have 1st person mode in space. The thing has all the curb appeal of a 2006 Subaru B9 Tribeca http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Tribeca. We are talking blindfolded and "beer-bottle glasses" until you get inside it, and then some.
Cryptic, please don't force us into penalty boxes like that.
Wasn't that because they were bugged and wasn't that bug fixed? The situation is a little different as ships aren't bugged and are working as designed.
They still offered refunds. If they don't offer refunds, then they wouldn't have offered refunds.
I am not part of a fleet, never have been and have no intention to be part of one.
I don't play PvP and again, have no intention to play that part of the game.
I don't have ultra this or fleet that, I have ships and equipement that suits me.
My concern is that it's going to cost money to upgrade and that doesn't seem right. I already paid for the ships, in either zen or in time. Why do I have to pay for them again. And please don't go on about "you don't need to upgrade to experience Delta Rising" as that is going to prove to be inaccurate at best.
The game is going to be tuned, maybe the middle level or low end of the T6 ships. So running around in a T5 is just not going to cut it. Maybe it will take longer to play the mission, maybe I'll die a few times. But in the end, my T5 is not going to be able to get through the game the way that I am used to playing the game.
I'm a paying customer, have been since the game was in Beta. The impression this is giving me is not something aimed at providing fun but as "how else can we squeeze more money out of them".
I know that companies are in business to make money, Cryptic does that by making and supporting games. But this seems a little over the top.
I think that there should be no cost to upgrading any ship that was purchased from the C-Store.
The game is going to be tuned, maybe the middle level or low end of the T6 ships. So running around in a T5 is just not going to cut it. Maybe it will take longer to play the mission, maybe I'll die a few times. But in the end, my T5 is not going to be able to get through the game the way that I am used to playing the game.
If Cryptic really wants to push the whole t6/t5u thing, they would make it possible for one peep to bomb the mission for the whole team whilst running a perfectly good t5 (barring captians' error).
I am not part of a fleet, never have been and have no intention to be part of one.
I don't play PvP and again, have no intention to play that part of the game.
I don't have ultra this or fleet that, I have ships and equipement that suits me.
My concern is that it's going to cost money to upgrade and that doesn't seem right. I already paid for the ships, in either zen or in time. Why do I have to pay for them again. And please don't go on about "you don't need to upgrade to experience Delta Rising" as that is going to prove to be inaccurate at best.
The game is going to be tuned, maybe the middle level or low end of the T6 ships. So running around in a T5 is just not going to cut it. Maybe it will take longer to play the mission, maybe I'll die a few times. But in the end, my T5 is not going to be able to get through the game the way that I am used to playing the game.
I'm a paying customer, have been since the game was in Beta. The impression this is giving me is not something aimed at providing fun but as "how else can we squeeze more money out of them".
I know that companies are in business to make money, Cryptic does that by making and supporting games. But this seems a little over the top.
I think that there should be no cost to upgrading any ship that was purchased from the C-Store.
Then I say make the proposed Tier 5.5 avail for those who don't want to pay for ship updates. And then make those who will pay the 500 Zen actually update their ships into true Tier 6 ships.
You then get those who don't want to or can't easily afford a Tier 5.5 level ship and then those who want to fly their Vesta Class, like me, as a true Tier 6 ship with all the bells and whistles. And both types of ships, as Cryptic states, will be competitive at Level 60.
2+ years of industry experience.
Credit on at least one previous shipped F2P game title
Passion for monetization and online games
Solid understanding of the F2P business model
MMO experience as player or designer
4-year degree required (or equivalent experience in relevant field)
So they want an economic specialist who also plays MMOs and helped make one before.
Damn, this is almost like looking for that millionarie supermodel that wants to be your wife and help you play videogames for the rest of your lives.....
Always love the chicken/egg of 'experience needed'. To get a job you need experience, but to get experience you need a job... :rolleyes: I guess most people must lie and say they have experience and hope they get some before someone figures out they didn't have it in the first place?
If Cryptic really wants to push the whole t6/t5u thing, they would make it possible for one peep to bomb the mission for the whole team whilst running a perfectly good t5 (barring captians' error).
Otherwise, if cryptic wants all peeps to be equipped for duty, they would give as a single free upgrade or t6 ship (like they did with the other tiers).
If they give us a free t6, it doesn't have to be those shiny uglies that they have been working on, they could just take a Typhoon, a Jupiter, etc. and slap on some stats, and send them on their merry way...
That way I do not have to make life harder for my team mates just because I only have t5s.
Then I say make the proposed Tier 5.5 avail for those who don't want to pay for ship updates. And then make those who will pay the 500 Zen actually update their ships into true Tier 6 ships.
You then get those who don't want to or can't easily afford a Tier 5.5 level ship and then those who want to fly their Vesta Class, like me, as a true Tier 6 ship with all the bells and whistles. And both types of ships, as Cryptic states, will be competitive at Level 60.
1: Said crowd of players..................Labeling, sterotyping, and of course illrelevant again to argument.
2: Things to be handed on a silver platter.............again outside of total context of agrument when the relevant argument was over the fact a fee should not be charged just to upgrade a Tier V starship.
3: The issue is Tier V Starship Upgrades, and not the concerns over how a corporation or even Fortune 500 company works. Babbling, bagering, and also spoon feeding words into someone.
4: Charging for a Starship Upgrade was outlined in the "Developers Blog" by Perfectworld itself.
Dareau, I have to say it. All you want is to get the last word, you take the game too seriously in regards to STO, the business aspect of Perfectworld as well as STO. It's a game, canon can be debated, so can profits, and both THAT is something that is all relative for another thread. You mad bro?
Maybe - the level of stupidity in this thread - overall - is grating on me. Maybe because it seems I'm fighting on three fronts and all three are in "ignore / ad hominem / write off / just give me what I want" mode...
Front #1:
Yes, this front is all about charging for T5 starship upgrades. Those in my point #1, of which you seem to be a member, firmly believe that there should be no charge for the upgrade...
I've cited, directly to refute this point/belief, what happened in Season 6 when Fleet ships came out (note, not a single T5+1 got a free ride), and 5-modifier Fleet Mk XIIs "invalidated" 4 modifier ones. I also used a touch of math (that has yet to be refuted despite me repeating it 3 times) that lockbox and lobi ships are tremendous cash cows that "sorta deserve" the special treatment in that they've easily made amounts of money that are multiples above what a T6 ship is anticipated to bring - and how not factoring this amount of money could kill said method of income, and highlighted how the "grind" ships "qualify" for free upgrades so that a path to "free T5U / T6 comprability" can be attained if the prerequisites has been met... I still seek direct refutation of these points, or examples as to why precedent should be changed in this instance (and potentially future instances).
Front #2:
T5U vs T6.
As I think of it instead of just firing off in response, some of the numbers I'm coming up with are conjecture, based primarily somewhat on previous examples done, game history, but based a lot off of this:
Upgraded Lockbox ships aren't inferior to T6s ships. Existing lockbox ships lack the 13th bridge officer power once they're upgraded and they don't have a Starship Trait, but they generally have superior hull and shield mods. Additionally a T5-U upgraded lockbox/lobi ship will have 11 console slots vs. a standard T6 ship's 10 console slots.
Thanks,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
Cryptic Studios
Systems Designer
And the blog. As the blog's chart shows, T6 gets +1 console over "T5". Now, if T6s are 10 console ships, the -1 must be a 9 console "base". Looking over the shiplist and our arbitrary-ish classifications, the T5 "basic" ships (RSV, DSSV, Patrol Escort, Advanced Escort, Original Assault Cruiser, Star Cruiser) and T5+1s ("iconic" retrofits, Nebula, MVAE, etc.) are 9 console ships, but don't significantly differ in things like hull strength, shields, etc. Hence, T6 is "upgrading" from the "baseline" T5s...
Now, I can't find these exactly right now, but I vaguely recall reading somewhere that:
1. The reason that they've even generated "scaling HP" is so that, at 50, a T5 and a T6 will be "comparable", but by 60 the T6 outclasses the basic T5.
1A. Since the whole goal of T5U is to make "comparable" to T6, one would figure that the same bonuses applied during the 50-60 T6 growth would apply to 50-60 T5U growth.
2. While the "exact amount of growth" is purely conjecture, if both T5(+1) and T6 start equal, and to be "comparable" the growths are identical, and a T5.5 would grow like a T5(+1), then a T5.5 - being +10% bigger than a T5(+1) - the resultant T5U11 would be at least 10% bigger than a T6 in Hull/shield mods after the upgrade and (identical) growths are applied.
Yep. I'll (readmit) conjecture - that the difference between a T6 at 50 and the T6 at 60 will be +10%. It just seems like such a nice number, and reflective of the "historical" precedent set with T5 to T5.5. The one number hinted at in the blog itself shows a 35,000 to 40,000 hull point growth, which is more akin to a 7% boost, and advertised to be an example only, exact numbers have yet to be determined...
Still, in this argument I am attempting to cull fears that "separate but equal is never equal", and highlighting that, for now, there's a high possibility that it will work out in the end - especially if one nabs a T6 ship or one of those alternate-acquired starship traits - early in these arguments I said (and still do) that the exact level of "competitiveness / comprability" rides on the final T6 ship and specialist BOff specs, especially where that 13th BOff power lands. We need that information to truly decide if we're equal or not, and really, if one side wants to conjecture so bad that T5U is full of suck without hard numbers, can't the other one conjecture that T5U is going to be "as advertised" or mayhap unintentionally better?
Front #3:
Dispose of T5U altogether and give everyone a trip (free or paid) to T6. This front I shoot down with a logic chain of "since day 1 it was told to us that we're getting separate but equal T5U and T6. Also, if you notice, all of T5 is canon, semi-canon, and made to look canon starships, where canon is an adjective that describes the fact that the ships - for the most part - look like something that was on screen and/or could have been on screen." Not whether or not the Vesta became "hard canon" or that a future Prime Universe TV series set after 2410 would have to reference the Romulan Republic and it's Scimitar Flagship type canon.
Especially since the demonstrated T6 Feds are "nowhere near" any level of "established Star Trek Look" - aka Canon-icity...
And the first reply to this completely misread my argument and attempted to cite weapon types (canon vs cannon). I attempted clarification, and now I'm shoehorning ships / game / storyline into levels of canon that attempts to match the shows / movies. Yep, complete misunderstandings do tend to roil the old blood here some.
With this hopefully understood, let me re-phrase the whole argument attempting to avoid the word "Canon".
We already know that the T6 starships being introduced look nothing like anything ever related to Star Trek before, ever.
We also know, both from human nature and the very nature of this argument, that Star Trek Fans prefer their "iconic" ships from the shows & movies, barring that at least something kitbashed from Star Trek ship parts, or at least built to closely resemble other Star Trek Ships. Many Star Trek Gamers would gravitate to the "from screen" ships over even the "kitbashed / lookalike" ships unless the non-screen ships were given significant levels of in-game power above and beyond those that were shown on the screen before. Look at the thousands of posts requesting/arguing/demanding the improvement of a specific ship that was the primary vessel of the crew in TNG - then the thousands of posts saying that the improvement was not enough. Interspersed within those series of posts is a lot of "go fly that ship Cryptic got a fan design to "replace" the TV ship as flagship of the fleet" and/or "you know, this particular ship made to look like something from the TV's Federation and has the game stats of what the KDF usually flies" with a touch of "buy this cruiser that can be made to look like the next version of that TV ship, but from the movies"
Hence, the progression. Ship that has actually seen screen time preferred more than a ship that was built with a mixmash of parts from on-screen ships which is preferred over something that looks like it might have been on screen at some point.
With this fact in mind, the only "encouragement" that can be given to fly those "completely never seen on screen" designs would be to make them a whole tier above the "looks like the TV show or directly from TV show" stuff. Even then, after flying a few rounds in that "oddball" ship, Trek gamers can earn that "exclusive trait", which would carry over to their upgraded "looks like or came from the screen" ship - leaving the new BOff type and extra 13th power behind to do so - especially if the claims that "these Tier 5 starships" will be comparable to the T6s in the remaining stats (aka potentially improved hull strength, shields, extra console being "worth" that 13th BOff power, and 4 levels of mastery)...
Does this mean that said gamer would, potentially, have to pay twice, one full price T6 entry and a second - minor - payment that hopefully would only cover the difference between prior investment(s) and the "full price of T6"? Yep. But then again, only half of the T5 stuff that can come "for free" is "screen or story" based, specifically the Advanced Escort (Prometheus), DSSV (Titan), and Assault Cruiser, Sovereign Model. Flying any other "from screen or story or even looks like a screen" ship meant a cash investment to begin with, so the precedent to pay is already there...
Again, seeking clarification that the playerbase is not like this, that I'm completely misreading the overall intent of those 4,000 posts and that the playerbase is gravitating to "blue hulled Scanline Federation ships" because Cryptic's designing them, not because they're carrying the next best game mechanic since sliced bread...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I think that there should be no cost to upgrading any ship that was purchased from the C-Store.
Isn't there always a cost to upgrading ships, even those purchased from the C-Store? They don't come preloaded with fleet or rep XII beams, consoles, shields, etc. Those things are never free in that you have to participate in a fleet, reputation missions, and various other things to acquire dil. And, you could also never upgrade something you bought in the C store that was a Tier 1 ship to a higher tier, so in a way, to upgrade, you have to purchase a higher level ship.
The only thing that has happened here is that the game is bigger. I didn't even realize that the cruiser I got while leveling up could never be a Tier 5 ship until a few months ago. I've been playing everything in the game with a level 4 ship that I've loaded with as many rep and fleet items as I can, and I still have several more items to go to not have any blue X level items, and I'm still shuffling my Doffs around to get the best situation there. Granted, I've not purchased anything in the sense of getting a card out and buying zen, but I've played a lot and converted a lot of dil to zen to get more doffs, hope for a cool ship, etc. So, I don't really see how its any different than all the other times we all had to face an upgrade need. Maybe you'll have to play with a T5 ship for a while to convert enough dil to get a T6 ship, but you can still even get a T6 ship for free. If it can't be RIGHT NOW well, its a game. I'm sure we'll all survive the wait and the time having to play to be able to upgrade.
Comments
On the whole "is STO really canon" and "how Cryptic's mangling the Franchise" - this is not the argument.
The argument, for this ship discussion only, revolves around Cryptic's - and by extension PWE's - attempts to "monetize" a popular portion of Star Trek gaming, specifically the ships being flown.
In this situation, "canon" is invoked over one thing. Players, myself included if the ToS Connie was to come into play at T6, especially as a Science Vessel, would pay once for their "canon" starship - then elect to ignore every further offering from Cryptic until such time as the offering was significantly more compelling to use in a gameplay aspect than my "canon ship of choice".
Obviously, if I can see that I ain't paying if "my" ship is powerful, then the beancounters see the same thing and won't let the "canon" ships become so powerful that the player's can "pay once and ride"...
So now we get to the second point. The whole "pay" thing. Whether I like it or not, the whole purpose of this expansion revolves around two things - hopefully please the players with new content and new challenges, and monetize enough stuff to please the PWE overlords (I mean PWE beancounters, but a lot of the time they're one and the same).
Now, let's examine fact #1. Cryptic has given all of us a 100% free path to T5U11 - which is theoretically "equal" to T6 as they will have +10% shields and +10% hull over a T6, and an 11th console instead of 10 consoles, the special BOff, and that 13th BOff slot.
Said path requires that the player in question has grinded out one of the 5 different "event" ships - specifically the 2 Breen ships, the 2 Risian ships, and/or the DSD during the "grindiversary". All 5 of these ships have an automatic, and free, upgrade pending. Therefore, the requirement to give F2P peeps a "bare minimum of competitiveness" has been met.
Fact #2. Look up my earlier posts for the math. Lockbox ships net Cryptic an average of $1,250 - whether from the buyer themselves or the "whales" who flood the markets with zen or master keys. Lobi ships net an average of $200. If you think a beancounter's going to spite that level of investment to get an extra $5 or $10, then you don't understand business. They can see that, if no free upgrade is provided here, nobody's gonna pay those outlandish levels of money. These ships are getting exactly what you want, a free upgrade because of major financial input.
That leaves the C-store left - both straight from the store and upgraded through the fleet path. Sadly, because they weren't "major" investments in the multi hundreds of dollars, they need that "touch up" payment. And they're not going "free" because, well, people are, and have proven, to be more than willing to pay for that touch of "canon", especially if the choices are the Breen, Risian, and DSDs.
TL;DR. Game has to be monetized somehow, somewhen, and "right now" as opposed to before within certain price ranges. This is being met while still allowing a F2P path - as long as prior requirements of being F2P were met. Come back when you can legitimately argue that the business will survive if player-desired non-monetization happens.
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
1. There's some funky thing about the Meta, ship recognition and available abilities, blah blah that makes it where you can't have, say, escort-y Excelsiors, Scientific Galaxies spamming CC, or orange disruptors.
2. I'd rather pay $15 to upgrade my most used ships, and then catch the rest "later", than pay $100 and "forget about it"...
3. $1,250 from the whales in exchanged keys, or zen on the Dilex. $200 per lobi ship. Based off of "stated averages" and "stated odds" - math earlier in thread. Can't kill these golden geese.
Event ships get the free ride to meet that "bare minimum for F2P people to be able to compete".
4. The gear chase is what drives people to play the game. See S5 prior to the release of fleets and people being only around for the FEs.
5. Subs / Lifers get a 500 zen/month stipend. If player so desires (and upgrades are 500 zen), they could use that free monthly stipend to upgrade a ship that month.
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
My apologies.
Yes, I know some of them are not Trek Lore...but yeah Trek Lore sailed some ages ago with the Lockbox ships.
Hybrid weapons are also a good idea : )
Imagine a Mega Quantum torpedo!
It would be relatively easy to do , that's why I suggested these things.
They would take little work, and not put a lot of strain on Cryptic's art team.
Just a bit of recoloring, maybe resizing a few models.
I know from my modding experience, that it would take around.... hm.. an hour or two for one person to make each of these items.
Even if only a few hundred people buy it, that would still net a big profit compared to the effort invested in it.
Dareau you.....................you don't get it. NOTHING is CANON regarding STO. The only reason why Perfectworld would even hint at it being "canon" is because Perfectworld is now on CBS's leash. Which means? If they say, "It isn't"? Then CBS could have their way with them regarding Trademark and Controlling Rights.
Now which factors back it 1:
It's an MMO, since when are things even canon much anymore?
Now onto factor 2:
Beancounters and PWE Overlords................I am guessing this is one of those conspiracy theories right?
Factor 3:
Either way as Virusdancer said it, the well you call PWE Overlords have been meeting their shareholding quota's even within the past projected year. So, either way I don't think PWE is going to lose money at all. Well even when you factor all the Lifetime Membership Subscriptions, Gold Membership Subscriptions, Lock Box Keys they sale unless the Exchange on STO messes with that one. Enough said, they're going to be happy one way or another if their getting returns on the investments. Enough said there as well.
Factor 4:
The word Investment:
Dareau, we're talking investment through the following and "following" regarding "ship builds".
1. Lock Boxes
2. Reputation
3. Fleet Projects
4. Z Store
5. Exchange
6. R and D
All the following above are means for resources for ship builds. This is regarding to the means to a ship, the consoles, the Doff's, and also yes the Boff's and Perks as well. This "is" the "investing" me and GameVerseMan had been talking about. "This" is what your PWE Overlords and Bean Counters you claim put out for us to use in ship builds. "This" is what that well $5 to $10 ship upgrade fee will result into having "us" players conflict with in having to cough out more cash so that unless we pay for the upgrade fee all "that" above will mean "Sqwuat" in regards to ship builds. I understand yes how PWE is thinking. So yes, I reject your opinion, your reality, and submit to my own. ~ Adam Savage. Done!
And here I thought I was just imagining the more blatant money grabbing :P
They must have fired the Ferengi in charge for not going far enough in monetization. I wouldn't be surprised if we start getting hit with docking fees. Or maybe ESD will start to have valet parking? "Yes Captain, you can self park in general parking, but don't be surprised when you return to your ship your warp core is missing."
Cryptic: If you think the bugs are bad, wait until you see our fixes!
T5U/T5FU will NOT have a special boff OR 13th boff ability slot.
T5FU will retain it's +10% over T5U just as Fleet currently does over standard T5. I have not seen where it was stated that T5FU has +10% over T6. There has been a statement made about the hit points being roughly equal, but that was very carefully qualified to mention "at level 50" so the scaling could be still be different so that by 60 there's a clear superiority. There was also a comment about some T5U ships "generally speaking" having more than T6, but again a qualified response about lockbox/lobi ships, specifically.
Assuming they were on during specific times doing specific activities.
Not quite as universal as you try to make it sound.
Almost nothing from "fact #1" is even true, so I'm not even going to bother with the rest.
What we'd like to see:
2+ years of industry experience.
Credit on at least one previous shipped F2P game title
Passion for monetization and online games
Solid understanding of the F2P business model
MMO experience as player or designer
4-year degree required (or equivalent experience in relevant field)
So they want an economic specialist who also plays MMOs and helped make one before.
Damn, this is almost like looking for that millionarie supermodel that wants to be your wife and help you play videogames for the rest of your lives.....
"Come back when you can legitimately argue that the business will survive if player-desired non-monetization happens."
Ummmm actually there are lots of MMO's that survive on Non-Monetization. They're called Free to Play. Lets see, APB Reloaded, World of Tanks, World of Warplanes, War Thunder, Uncharted Online, Shaiya. Are just to name a few. Anyways the point is there are MMO's that exist in such a means.
1. The only Canon I'm looking at is the fact that the Galaxy, Galaxy X, Intrepid, Connie, Defiant, etc. etc. have been on a screen of some sort, whether TV or movie, while just about everything else (Vesta, Oddy, Regent's base skin, Avenger, etc. hasn't.
1A - Per the argument you're thinking I'm running with, I'd be saying that if there ever was a new series set in the future of the Prime Universe (which includes STO), they're supposed to acknowledge the Romulan Republic was flagshipped by a Reman Scimitar, etc. etc.
2. Sad humor, but sometimes all but true in the business world - decisions have to be vetted by the beancounters / accountants to ensure that the proper RoI, etc. that makes the business world go around happen in the favorable methods...
3. Yes, those reports cited by Virusdancer indicate that - even though PWE's claiming losing a third of their PC logger-inners - they're still doing well enough off as a company that the shareholders aren't telling the bosses to tell the beancounters to make them more money. However, that does not mean that the bosses aren't telling the beancounters to help make "less profitable" games more profitable, or telling the devs that they need to come up with stuff that not only makes them money but gets these people back.
4. Your ship build is not being rendered invalid because DR launches. No mechanic is suddenly gonna turn your 20k DPS Scimitar into a 10k one. A Mk XII purple is just as powerful today as it will be tomorrow. Your claims of "loss of investment" are fail. On the day after DR launches, gather up a 5 pack of non-upgraded 20k Scimitars and run an "unadjusted" ISE. See if you need the full 15 minutes to get the optional, or does it still take the mighty 3 minutes.
Show me where any advertisement explicitly states that T5x is "endgame". Or that Mk XII is "endgame". And that either of these will be "endgame" for the remainder of the existence of STO. Then I might sympathize with your plight...
If you look at established history:
1. When I started in S5, the T5+1 ships were the most powerful examples of ships in the game. Season 6 made the fleet, aka T5.5 ships, the most powerful ones. Notice that there are pay for fleet versions of the T5+1 ships in the fleetyards. Exhibit #1 for "C-store ships will be pay to upgrade".
2. When T5.5 / Fleet was released, any lockbox ship at the time that did not meet the fleet standards (+10% hull & shields over the T5/5+1 versions, 10th console) received a free upgrade to the T5.5 status - because of the "average" $1,250 Cryptic made for the RNG to spit one of these ships out of a lockbox. To rehash, $1.25 per key, .1% of lockboxes spit out lockbox prize ships. Exhibit #1, massive influxes of cash to generate a ship = free upgrade. Does not matter if said ship was bought off the exchange, or the key to do it was from the exchange or the buyer traded Dil for some zen on the Dilex. Cryptic got their money from someone (most likely a "whale")...
3. Lobi ships are an average of $200. Average of 5 lobi per box, 800 per ship - means about 160 boxes, at $1.25/box... Exhibit #2, massive influx of cash = free upgrade.
4. Release of 5 modifier "ultraviolet" Mk XIIs did not generate an automatic modifier addition to every existing piece of Mk XII gear, the players needed to grind the appropriate fleet locations, provisions, credits and dilithium to get them. Did you cry that your Mk XII [Borg] stuff was suddenly useless with them. Exhibit #1, power creep invalidating equipment.
Again, I can't emphasize this enough. Tier 5.5 "fleet" and Mk XII are not "endgame", they just happen to be the most powerful equipment available today. History does not shine well on the "then current maximum" getting a free lift to "the new maximum". Give me a valid reason/rationale why this time should be different other than "I want a free, and grindless, ride"...
According to Geko - please dev tracker his posts instead of relying on my word alone - at the end of the "T6 ships levelling process", it will have +10% hull and +10% shields over the basic Tier 5 ships. Which then inferrs that, since T5.5s have the same +10% hull and +10% shields, as far as hull/shield and # of console stats, a maxxed out T6 will be statistically identical to an "unupgraded" T5.5 "fleet" ship.
He also states that all T5s that draw the upgrade receive the same +10% extra hull, +10% extra shield, and an extra console as part of the upgrade to T5U. Obviously, on, say, my 9 console Galaxy-X from the C-store, it'll wind up with 10 consoles and the hull/shield bonus (making it identical, statistically, to the Fleet version). However, applying that same bonus to the fleet version with it's 10th console and pre-existing bonuses means that it'll have ~20% more hull and shields than a basic T5, and an 11th console. Compared to the "claimed" T6 being +10% bigger than the basic T5s, well, do the math...
And do note that I prefaced that statement with "said path requires that the player..." I know that the "true F2P Path to T5U11" is not universal, just that if you've been a dedicated grinder and here for more than just DR then said player most likely has at least one of the 5 ships...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Just wanted to state that as far as canon goes Vesta is more canon than the entirety of STO as it was established in a Trek based book. That said, Vesta is the only ship in the game that falls under that category currently. FYI, Order of priority in canon goes like this:
1. On Screen
2. Trek Novels
3. Trek Games and Comics
Anything from a spot on the list making a contradiction with something below it on the list cancels out the lore from the item lower on the list. Same applies in any major franchise first established as a TV series or movie which expanded to those other realms later. For the most part games and comics are never considered canon, just fun little content to play and ignore long-term story implications. This system was setup by Paramount and continued as CBS took direct control after doing the same with their management of Paramount.
The Vesta was added to the game at the long term request of Trek Lit fans, where the ship had been well fleshed out in it's abilities and appearance long before Cryptic worked up their own for the game. While it is 'soft canon' as it came from literature, it is still as canon as any other Trek lit reference that permeates this game.
But nowhere has it been said that over those 10 levels T6 and T5U gain health/shields at the same rate. That simple fact leaves this conclusion an assumption and not fact, regardless of how many statements are tied together to reach it as we are still missing critical numbers to prove that to be the end result of the equation.
1. It's a game, and PWE has to adhere to CBS. Done
1A: Now about one leading from thread.
2: Really, the obsession with beans and overlords. Leading away from thread.
3: Virusdancer right, and yes still leading away from thread.
4: Didn't grasp issue, charge fee to upgrade ship to new expansion. Related but illrelevant.
"Show me where any advertisement explicitly states that T5x is "endgame". Or that Mk XII is "endgame". And that either of these will be "endgame" for the remainder of the existence of STO. Then I might sympathize with your plight..."
I could swear challenging define as provocation. Highly illogical.
"According to Geko - please dev tracker his posts instead of relying on my word alone - at the end of the "T6 ships levelling process", it will have +10% hull and +10% shields over the basic Tier 5 ships. Which then inferrs that, since T5.5s have the same +10% hull and +10% shields, as far as hull/shield and # of console stats, a maxxed out T6 will be statistically identical to an "unupgraded" T5.5 "fleet" ship."
Yes like Virusdancer said, already articale done about that.
And do note that I prefaced that statement with "said path requires that the player..." I know that the "true F2P Path to T5U11" is not universal, just that if you've been a dedicated grinder and here for more than just DR then said player most likely has at least one of the 5 ships...[/QUOTE]
Lingering on, I spell spam?
Actually again canon, illrelevant from thread. Also novels are debateable to any genre and franchise as canon. Lets see Star Trek: The Return, by William Shatner. Debateable, and illogical. Period. As far as games go, again CBS does not reconize any of the following games itself from the Interplay and onward and yes that includes Klingon Academy as part of their canon. So video games canon? Invalid. Now on screen? Yes that can be canon being that both Paramount and CBS well since CBS controls the rights to all the old movies do classify that as canon. So yes that is valid. Out of best two out of three I say majority goes to invalid. Illogical.
You can get refunds for Kumari weapons. It may be in dill, but you can use zen to get dill to get weapons to get dill to get zen.
I appreciate you linking all that, I had literally just gathered the same info up and was about to start the reply :9.
However, I will again point out the very, very targeted nature of his subjects.
He was referring specifically about "existing lockbox ships" which will "generally have superior hull and shield mods" and we should be careful not to assume that is true of all T5U11 ships and by extension how T5U10 ships will compare.
Another problem with the system they've devised...the convoluted array of designators we have to use and how easy it is to blur the lines. T5, T5.5, T5U, T5U10, T5U11, T5FU...
Much of this T5 U business seems convoluted to me.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I really wouldn't give a TRIBBLE about any of this if it was just sold to me in a FUN way. If my Doffs and R&D guys could be sent off to upgrade my T5 ships with step by step benefits, hell, maybe I'd be happy to blow 1000 zen scrounging components to build it myself. Would it just be another grind? Maybe - it would depend on how such a system was executed.
But if a game is going to launch a system like this as a Zynga type cash grab? ... well that's where things get ugly don't they.
Okay. The challenge, as I've been presenting it all day:
1. You are part of a group that believes that the entire T5U / T6 / Mk XIV / etc. etc. release of Delta Rising needs to be handed to players on a silver platter because it "invalidates" - specifically through overpowering - the "current endgame paradigm" of T5.5 "Fleet" ships and Mk XII "Ultraviolet" / Fleet level gears being the high end.
And it is not to be done with the handing out of some blue scanlined 4 nacelled cruiser, it needs to be the exact ship the player wants to fly. Whether they own it today or not.
2. Your justification for said claim stands strictly on the amount of grind/finances you've invested into the game to this point.
Am I right? Do I have your position clear?
If so, then:
1. I spell out, in no uncertain terms, that previous raises to the "endgame power level" bar was not met with a corresponding free pile of gifts - outside of Lockbox grade ships.
To me, this pulls the rug out from under your position 1, which is the heart of your entire belief system.
2. Are you aware of how a for-profit company works? Each quarter, they count the $$$ that come in only during that quarter. They count the $$$ that leave in that quarter. If In > Out, profit. If In < Out, loss. Profit = Good, Loss = Bad.
Existing good profit reports do not mean that the next profit report will be good as well. They need to repeat the amount of incomes each quarter, preferably without spending as much money.
Therefore, this expansion is an obvious, blatant attempt, to drain money out of our pockets this quarter. Next quarter, they'll have some new shiny (possibly T6 Fleet) to do the same. This is not a fact that I will dispute. I will continue to pull the rug out of any belief that seems to revolve around getting something for nothing, or that PWE's current good profit should automatically slide over into another quarter and/or give us things that they aren't planning on giving us.
At the same time, I'm arguing both the reason that T5U is getting a "separate but equal" treatment over a full on T6 treatment - through the careful application of human nature - as related to Star Trek Fan Gamers, and the careful application of "canon".
Geko has spelled out that part of the difference is because, as demonstrated in the previews, T6 will be 100% Cryptic designs that deviate greatly from the "established lore" of ship design. Blue hulls and Scanlines on Feds are quite the departure...
Now, human nature tells us that, as far as starship selection goes, we're gonna fly our favorite ship if it's available. The only thing that pries us from our favorite ship would be a compelling, significant, game-related reason. Occasionally, there will be a balance in "fugly but passable because of the extra power". Oddessy and Avenger fans demonstrate this almost every time you see one, occasionally you'll find someone who genuinely loves the look of the ship - power level be ignored. Obviously, if T6 ships have "significant new powers" that the canon T5Us don't - we're gonna abandon our favorite ships for them. Too many players are wanting - in this thread - to "fix" the "canon + powerful" stance that players naturally want (our cake - the looks we want. The eating - max level power). However, they're rolling with "separate but equal" so that people who would leave if they weren't "competitive" would have a reason to stay, and to take a spin or 30 in Cryptic's new toys...
Again, I believe that I've read how the maths will play out in the attempt to run "separate but equal" - especially in the comparison between T5U11 (ex fleet-grade ships upgraded) vs the entire stat suite advertised for T6. I try to disclaim that until we see everything about T6 - what the new BOff will do, what strength the 13th BOff slot will be, what the actual costs are gonna run us - I can't say for certain that the goal has been met...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
1: Said crowd of players..................Labeling, sterotyping, and of course illrelevant again to argument.
2: Things to be handed on a silver platter.............again outside of total context of agrument when the relevant argument was over the fact a fee should not be charged just to upgrade a Tier V starship.
3: The issue is Tier V Starship Upgrades, and not the concerns over how a corporation or even Fortune 500 company works. Babbling, bagering, and also spoon feeding words into someone.
4: Charging for a Starship Upgrade was outlined in the "Developers Blog" by Perfectworld itself.
Dareau, I have to say it. All you want is to get the last word, you take the game too seriously in regards to STO, the business aspect of Perfectworld as well as STO. It's a game, canon can be debated, so can profits, and both THAT is something that is all relative for another thread. You mad bro?
And also as before Virusdancer did ask you to show the link for all relative related data regarding all of this. As far as we all are concerned on this thread this whole bit of what you are throwing out there is conjecture and open to interpretation Dareau. So whatever your equations, data, and even conclusions tell you. Plain and simple..................unless Perfectworld "confirms" it. Then your idea of canon is illrelevant, as well as open to debate. That goes for upgrades, Tier VI Starships, and even all the bells and whistles which include all the tea in China.
Wasn't that because they were bugged and wasn't that bug fixed? The situation is a little different as ships aren't bugged and are working as designed.
Cryptic, please don't force us into penalty boxes like that.
They still offered refunds. If they don't offer refunds, then they wouldn't have offered refunds.
I don't play PvP and again, have no intention to play that part of the game.
I don't have ultra this or fleet that, I have ships and equipement that suits me.
My concern is that it's going to cost money to upgrade and that doesn't seem right. I already paid for the ships, in either zen or in time. Why do I have to pay for them again. And please don't go on about "you don't need to upgrade to experience Delta Rising" as that is going to prove to be inaccurate at best.
The game is going to be tuned, maybe the middle level or low end of the T6 ships. So running around in a T5 is just not going to cut it. Maybe it will take longer to play the mission, maybe I'll die a few times. But in the end, my T5 is not going to be able to get through the game the way that I am used to playing the game.
I'm a paying customer, have been since the game was in Beta. The impression this is giving me is not something aimed at providing fun but as "how else can we squeeze more money out of them".
I know that companies are in business to make money, Cryptic does that by making and supporting games. But this seems a little over the top.
I think that there should be no cost to upgrading any ship that was purchased from the C-Store.
If Cryptic really wants to push the whole t6/t5u thing, they would make it possible for one peep to bomb the mission for the whole team whilst running a perfectly good t5 (barring captians' error).
Then I say make the proposed Tier 5.5 avail for those who don't want to pay for ship updates. And then make those who will pay the 500 Zen actually update their ships into true Tier 6 ships.
You then get those who don't want to or can't easily afford a Tier 5.5 level ship and then those who want to fly their Vesta Class, like me, as a true Tier 6 ship with all the bells and whistles. And both types of ships, as Cryptic states, will be competitive at Level 60.
Always love the chicken/egg of 'experience needed'. To get a job you need experience, but to get experience you need a job... :rolleyes: I guess most people must lie and say they have experience and hope they get some before someone figures out they didn't have it in the first place?
Otherwise, if cryptic wants all peeps to be equipped for duty, they would give as a single free upgrade or t6 ship (like they did with the other tiers).
If they give us a free t6, it doesn't have to be those shiny uglies that they have been working on, they could just take a Typhoon, a Jupiter, etc. and slap on some stats, and send them on their merry way...
That way I do not have to make life harder for my team mates just because I only have t5s.
I'd be perfectly fine with this.
Maybe - the level of stupidity in this thread - overall - is grating on me. Maybe because it seems I'm fighting on three fronts and all three are in "ignore / ad hominem / write off / just give me what I want" mode...
Front #1:
Yes, this front is all about charging for T5 starship upgrades. Those in my point #1, of which you seem to be a member, firmly believe that there should be no charge for the upgrade...
I've cited, directly to refute this point/belief, what happened in Season 6 when Fleet ships came out (note, not a single T5+1 got a free ride), and 5-modifier Fleet Mk XIIs "invalidated" 4 modifier ones. I also used a touch of math (that has yet to be refuted despite me repeating it 3 times) that lockbox and lobi ships are tremendous cash cows that "sorta deserve" the special treatment in that they've easily made amounts of money that are multiples above what a T6 ship is anticipated to bring - and how not factoring this amount of money could kill said method of income, and highlighted how the "grind" ships "qualify" for free upgrades so that a path to "free T5U / T6 comprability" can be attained if the prerequisites has been met... I still seek direct refutation of these points, or examples as to why precedent should be changed in this instance (and potentially future instances).
Front #2:
T5U vs T6.
As I think of it instead of just firing off in response, some of the numbers I'm coming up with are conjecture, based primarily somewhat on previous examples done, game history, but based a lot off of this:
And the blog. As the blog's chart shows, T6 gets +1 console over "T5". Now, if T6s are 10 console ships, the -1 must be a 9 console "base". Looking over the shiplist and our arbitrary-ish classifications, the T5 "basic" ships (RSV, DSSV, Patrol Escort, Advanced Escort, Original Assault Cruiser, Star Cruiser) and T5+1s ("iconic" retrofits, Nebula, MVAE, etc.) are 9 console ships, but don't significantly differ in things like hull strength, shields, etc. Hence, T6 is "upgrading" from the "baseline" T5s...
Now, I can't find these exactly right now, but I vaguely recall reading somewhere that:
1. The reason that they've even generated "scaling HP" is so that, at 50, a T5 and a T6 will be "comparable", but by 60 the T6 outclasses the basic T5.
1A. Since the whole goal of T5U is to make "comparable" to T6, one would figure that the same bonuses applied during the 50-60 T6 growth would apply to 50-60 T5U growth.
2. While the "exact amount of growth" is purely conjecture, if both T5(+1) and T6 start equal, and to be "comparable" the growths are identical, and a T5.5 would grow like a T5(+1), then a T5.5 - being +10% bigger than a T5(+1) - the resultant T5U11 would be at least 10% bigger than a T6 in Hull/shield mods after the upgrade and (identical) growths are applied.
Yep. I'll (readmit) conjecture - that the difference between a T6 at 50 and the T6 at 60 will be +10%. It just seems like such a nice number, and reflective of the "historical" precedent set with T5 to T5.5. The one number hinted at in the blog itself shows a 35,000 to 40,000 hull point growth, which is more akin to a 7% boost, and advertised to be an example only, exact numbers have yet to be determined...
Still, in this argument I am attempting to cull fears that "separate but equal is never equal", and highlighting that, for now, there's a high possibility that it will work out in the end - especially if one nabs a T6 ship or one of those alternate-acquired starship traits - early in these arguments I said (and still do) that the exact level of "competitiveness / comprability" rides on the final T6 ship and specialist BOff specs, especially where that 13th BOff power lands. We need that information to truly decide if we're equal or not, and really, if one side wants to conjecture so bad that T5U is full of suck without hard numbers, can't the other one conjecture that T5U is going to be "as advertised" or mayhap unintentionally better?
Front #3:
Dispose of T5U altogether and give everyone a trip (free or paid) to T6. This front I shoot down with a logic chain of "since day 1 it was told to us that we're getting separate but equal T5U and T6. Also, if you notice, all of T5 is canon, semi-canon, and made to look canon starships, where canon is an adjective that describes the fact that the ships - for the most part - look like something that was on screen and/or could have been on screen." Not whether or not the Vesta became "hard canon" or that a future Prime Universe TV series set after 2410 would have to reference the Romulan Republic and it's Scimitar Flagship type canon.
Especially since the demonstrated T6 Feds are "nowhere near" any level of "established Star Trek Look" - aka Canon-icity...
And the first reply to this completely misread my argument and attempted to cite weapon types (canon vs cannon). I attempted clarification, and now I'm shoehorning ships / game / storyline into levels of canon that attempts to match the shows / movies. Yep, complete misunderstandings do tend to roil the old blood here some.
With this hopefully understood, let me re-phrase the whole argument attempting to avoid the word "Canon".
We already know that the T6 starships being introduced look nothing like anything ever related to Star Trek before, ever.
We also know, both from human nature and the very nature of this argument, that Star Trek Fans prefer their "iconic" ships from the shows & movies, barring that at least something kitbashed from Star Trek ship parts, or at least built to closely resemble other Star Trek Ships. Many Star Trek Gamers would gravitate to the "from screen" ships over even the "kitbashed / lookalike" ships unless the non-screen ships were given significant levels of in-game power above and beyond those that were shown on the screen before. Look at the thousands of posts requesting/arguing/demanding the improvement of a specific ship that was the primary vessel of the crew in TNG - then the thousands of posts saying that the improvement was not enough. Interspersed within those series of posts is a lot of "go fly that ship Cryptic got a fan design to "replace" the TV ship as flagship of the fleet" and/or "you know, this particular ship made to look like something from the TV's Federation and has the game stats of what the KDF usually flies" with a touch of "buy this cruiser that can be made to look like the next version of that TV ship, but from the movies"
Hence, the progression. Ship that has actually seen screen time preferred more than a ship that was built with a mixmash of parts from on-screen ships which is preferred over something that looks like it might have been on screen at some point.
With this fact in mind, the only "encouragement" that can be given to fly those "completely never seen on screen" designs would be to make them a whole tier above the "looks like the TV show or directly from TV show" stuff. Even then, after flying a few rounds in that "oddball" ship, Trek gamers can earn that "exclusive trait", which would carry over to their upgraded "looks like or came from the screen" ship - leaving the new BOff type and extra 13th power behind to do so - especially if the claims that "these Tier 5 starships" will be comparable to the T6s in the remaining stats (aka potentially improved hull strength, shields, extra console being "worth" that 13th BOff power, and 4 levels of mastery)...
Does this mean that said gamer would, potentially, have to pay twice, one full price T6 entry and a second - minor - payment that hopefully would only cover the difference between prior investment(s) and the "full price of T6"? Yep. But then again, only half of the T5 stuff that can come "for free" is "screen or story" based, specifically the Advanced Escort (Prometheus), DSSV (Titan), and Assault Cruiser, Sovereign Model. Flying any other "from screen or story or even looks like a screen" ship meant a cash investment to begin with, so the precedent to pay is already there...
Again, seeking clarification that the playerbase is not like this, that I'm completely misreading the overall intent of those 4,000 posts and that the playerbase is gravitating to "blue hulled Scanline Federation ships" because Cryptic's designing them, not because they're carrying the next best game mechanic since sliced bread...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Isn't there always a cost to upgrading ships, even those purchased from the C-Store? They don't come preloaded with fleet or rep XII beams, consoles, shields, etc. Those things are never free in that you have to participate in a fleet, reputation missions, and various other things to acquire dil. And, you could also never upgrade something you bought in the C store that was a Tier 1 ship to a higher tier, so in a way, to upgrade, you have to purchase a higher level ship.
The only thing that has happened here is that the game is bigger. I didn't even realize that the cruiser I got while leveling up could never be a Tier 5 ship until a few months ago. I've been playing everything in the game with a level 4 ship that I've loaded with as many rep and fleet items as I can, and I still have several more items to go to not have any blue X level items, and I'm still shuffling my Doffs around to get the best situation there. Granted, I've not purchased anything in the sense of getting a card out and buying zen, but I've played a lot and converted a lot of dil to zen to get more doffs, hope for a cool ship, etc. So, I don't really see how its any different than all the other times we all had to face an upgrade need. Maybe you'll have to play with a T5 ship for a while to convert enough dil to get a T6 ship, but you can still even get a T6 ship for free. If it can't be RIGHT NOW well, its a game. I'm sure we'll all survive the wait and the time having to play to be able to upgrade.