oh god, thats hilarious, the joke builds those pve'ers come up with are adorable, id love to see him try to pvp in that. if you think thats ligit you have a lot to learn about the meta and how things actually work in pvp before you keep trying to argue
oh and if you want to kill things fastest in pve? you get ether a sci destroyer, dhlean, or elachi escort, 2 AtB it, equip GW, CSV and TS3 and watch every npc on your screen die in about 3 to 10 seconds. LOL FAW, LOL DEEPS
If you bothered to look into it more you would have noticed that is the PvE setup. He has a PvP setup as well and did use it in matches where it did perform well. Nice joke about knowing meta though immediately followed by saying the best PvE dps is done with dual A2B...which it most certainly is not, at least if your capable of taking skills of spacebar. You also left off the actual top ships for that, but you're right, I don't know PvP or PvE meta.
If you bothered to look into it more you would have noticed that is the PvE setup. He has a PvP setup as well and did use it in matches where it did perform well. Nice joke about knowing meta though immediately followed by saying the best PvE dps is done with dual A2B...which it most certainly is not, at least if your capable of taking skills of spacebar. You also left off the actual top ships for that, but you're right, I don't know PvP or PvE meta.
i ain't exploring 20 pages of pve gibberish to look for some pvp version. but let me guess, its all about max deeps, yet he still uses the sci version, that only has an advantage with single target damage?
what did i say about best pve DPS being from 2 AtB? you will have to point out exactly were i said that, because i don't recall. i did say something about killing npcs fastest, ive actually gone over and over the fact that AtB builds don't inherently push damage past a point non AtB ships can create what so ever.
i did not intend to mention every single sci heavy escort. was it the nicor your thinking of? its such a farce that those are playable i try to put them out of my mind. that extra turret though, that will really show up those other ships i mentioned big time! the 5th tac console don't hurt i suppose. the scimitar can do it to, with much larger gaps in between though. good for no win waves, not so much on a constantly slug fest like the new mirror event or some of the other qued content, the 2 AtB ships can pull it off constantly.
i ain't exploring 20 pages of pve gibberish to look for some pvp version. but let me guess, its all about max deeps, yet he still uses the sci version, that only has an advantage with single target damage?
It's about controlling the high DPS and not simply binding everything into one rotation. The user also knows how and when to use FAW for good use, not mindlessly using it just because it's available. The pressure DPS it caused was great, and when using Alpha/DEM it can create a spike.
what did i say about best pve DPS being from 2 AtB? you will have to point out exactly were i said that, because i don't recall. i did say something about killing npcs fastest, ive actually gone over and over the fact that AtB builds don't inherently push damage past a point non AtB ships can create what so ever.
i did not intend to mention every single sci heavy escort. <removed nicor comments, see below> the scimitar can do it to, with much larger gaps in between though. good for no win waves, not so much on a constantly slug fest like the new mirror event or some of the other qued content, the 2 AtB ships can pull it off constantly.
Tac Scim and Arkif, even the Jem Dread. All best with no A2B and could easily 'pull it off constantly' as I did personally with the Arkif and Dread during that mirror event.
AtB doesnt directly boost weapon damage. All it does is push a bunch of power into weapons subsystem, which is what has such a large impact on damage output. But you can do the same thing without AtB. Indeed, most of the DPS channel peoples are only using AtB when they need the technicians for cooldown management, and do not use it otherwise since power management is not an issue for them in the usual case.
It does, however, boost shields and weapons very high too, and that is what makes those ships so powerful in PVP. A dual AtB FACR can tank 3-4 attackers while blasting out overcapped beams and walk out the winner, especially when you have a tac captain in the chair adding APA/FOMM/TF/GDF. Whats even worse is that you can do the same thing with some escorts now too.
That is why I want to see the power levels capped and scaled:
AtB1 = 15 Aux -> 5 weap/shields/engine
AtB2 = 30 Aux -> 10 weap/shields/engine
AtB3 = 45 Aux -> 15 weap/shields/engine
That would actually make low-level AtB poor for power buffs (although still viable for cooldown management). High-level AtB would still be awesome, but very expensive.
And they should run that through some kind of engineering trait so that engi gets more power from it than tac or sci captain.
As someone who once attempted to educate the unwashed masses on A2B, I'm going to drop in from my status as ceiling cat to point out what everybody already knows: listen to drunk.
Remember that story of a bunch of blind guys describing an elephant? One is touching the trunk, one the tail, one the ear, one the leg, and they're all arguing about what the elephant is. Drunk is one of the few people who first acknowledges the fact that A2B is different things to different ships, and can accurately explain what it means to each ship.
Does anybody think there's any single person or team of people at Cryptic who have this nuanced perspective?
Anybody? Right.
People don't seem to want to listen to drunk because he gives complex answers. He usually starts with "Here's how this ship got kills before" then "Here's how this ship gets kills now" which branches to either "Here's how this ship healed before" or "Here's how this other ship compares to it" or "Here's how much it matters on a team with good support or pugging." A far cry from "A2B is BLARGH and that's the end of it!" Freaking unwashed masses. Just drink the kool-aid.
A round of applause please, the 'first' ever user of A2B has entered the room.
Not the first user of A2B. The first 2 A2B or double A2B. If you can't see the significance of this...
You're punching above your weight, friend. Drunk is literally the dude who figured it out and posted the build. It was months later that the PvE community linked his build and started facerolling.
It's about controlling the high DPS and not simply binding everything into one rotation. The user also knows how and when to use FAW for good use, not mindlessly using it just because it's available. The pressure DPS it caused was great, and when using Alpha/DEM it can create a spike.
You keep using these words like you know what they mean. FAW + DEM +APA =/= spike. In baseball a foul ball isn't a hit. Calling that spike is like insisting it's a hit because the bat hit the ball. Sure it did, but not in the way that matters to everybody playing that game.
Shhhh... just drink the kool-aid and listen to drunk.
Drunk is one of the few people who first acknowledges the fact that A2B is different things to different ships, and can accurately explain what it means to each ship.
People don't seem to want to listen to drunk because he gives complex answers. He usually starts with "Here's how this ship got kills before" then "Here's how this ship gets kills now" which branches to either "Here's how this ship healed before" or "Here's how this other ship compares to it" or "Here's how much it matters on a team with good support or pugging." A far cry from "A2B is BLARGH and that's the end of it!" Freaking unwashed masses. Just drink the kool-aid.
He gave points, I gave counter-points, with the same level of explanation.
You're punching above your weight, friend. Drunk is literally the dude who figured it out and posted the build. It was months later that the PvE community linked his build and started facerolling.
Again here we are how many years/expansions/buffs/nerfs/fixes later? Not the same game as it was when A2B first started showing up. Also who are you to start classing people into 'weights' on the forums? Can no one challenge DDIS and his opinions simply because he has thousands of posts and contributions before? Has this now made him infallible? Pfft.
You keep using these words like you know what they mean. FAW + DEM +APA =/= spike. In baseball a foul ball isn't a hit. Calling that spike is like insisting it's a hit because the bat hit the ball. Sure it did, but not in the way that matters to everybody playing that game.
If you don't know when to use it, sure it would be a 'foul ball' and wasted. Actually knowing when to use it makes it a completely viable spike. Vape levels? No. Still a good spike? Yes. The best spike? Probably not, but that should belong to escorts anyway. As for FAW being the mix, why not swap for a BO if you're so worried about things being shot at that shouldn't be. This further highlights the need for FAW to be split into Beam: Rapid Fire and Beam: Scatter Fire (in my opinion).
if they really want fix something simply fix the chaining in boff powers
every boff power, no matter what should not be none stop or overlapping, all the cooldown doffs, % chance reduction, etc should NOT be able to make any ability overlap or run perfectly back to back
put gaps between every boff power so if someone runs emergency power shields and emergency power weapons there then would be a HARD 5 second gap no matter what doffs or boff powers are run,
There's an issue with A2B putting everything on global, so now we have to take away cooldowns? I don't think we need to tear down the house for a leaking faucet...
one of the problems we see in pvp is folks flying around with both emergency power shields AND engines up at the same time for periods of time, now those folks pat themselves on their own back on how clever they have been with some doffs and a keybind, but the fact is the game should not allow that
But being clever with doffs for A2B should be allowed? I think the term double standard has been thrown around in this thread already, why not add it here too. The EPtX chaining is still just a CHANCE. If you want the best chance you put 3 DCEs on your build, taking up HALF your doff slots for two abilities. If you want the best cooldown reduction for A2B (which is guaranteed), you put 3 Techs on your build, again taking up half your doff slots but effecting ALL your boff powers.
they put a hard gap between the beam overloads, they should do the same for the rest of all the powers
It's called global cooldowns and already in the game. The 'hard gap' for BOs was to take away the double tap you could line up by not firing the first BO before the global cooldown was over.
BESIDES! all the cooldown reduction doffs and boffs out there really strike me as intented for those that run a single copy of an ability to simulate close to what it feels like to have 2 copies of the same ability
Or get them closer to their own global cooldown, great, nps. The problem is one type of doff can bring almost all abilities to global.
I do agree that a2b is out of step in terms of effectiveness compared to other Doff CD reducers.
However, as Adjudicatorhawk said, it's a quick and dirty solution to ship imbalance.
Does it need a rethink? Yes. Can that work without a systemwide rebalance? I don't think so.
I use a2b for two reasons. I adopted it early with FAW as a reaction to the insanely spammy queue matches that were prevalent at the time - there were very few a2b FAWboats at that time, and it was a unique-ish solution to the uberspam.
I still use my a2b excelsior for one reason, and one reason alone. Recently I have a lot less time to play STO, sometimes going months without a chance. I can't keep up with the rep grind, or with the timing skills I need to run my escorts or non-a2b builds. I'm not saying good players don't have skills with a2b boats - good players like DDIS and others whomp me heartily with nearly identical builds. But, the FAW build lets me queue up and not get instavaped,,even if I do die more often than I used too.
Is it a crutch? I guess, in the same way leg braces on a polio survivor might be - without the chance to grind obsessively and practice several times a week, it allows me to leverage the fact that at one point in the past I put a lot of thought and a lot of EC into a ship which still dies, but lets me at least lets me enjoy doing it.
My guess is "hope" keeps people not playing but posting on the forums. For others, its a path of sad realization and closure. Grieving takes time. The worst "haters" here love the game, or did at some point.
I think there are plenty of ideas floating around that could fix this issue without harming anything else at all. Whether it be with the tech doffs, the power being transferred, tie-ins with EPtX skills, etc. One skill plus doffs honestly shouldn't be enough to level the playing field with someone who has been able to spend the time grinding rep and getting the best gear and those who haven't. Why shouldn't he who has played more and spent more ec/dil have an edge over someone with the same player-based skill? That's what drives a lot of us to keep doing the snoozefest of PvE in the first place.
I feel now is a good time to reiterate the fact that many A2B users say "cruisers aren't viable without it," but as I continue to show there are already great cruiser builds in game running without it, even in PvP.
One skill plus doffs honestly shouldn't be enough to level the playing field with someone who has been able to spend the time grinding rep and getting the best gear and those who haven't. Why shouldn't he who has played more and spent more ec/dil have an edge over someone with the same player-based skill?
I did spend the time grinding. I farmed the EC for Marion, and my purple techs. I farmed ungodly amounts of FC and dilithium for the romulan rep, omega rep, and fleet gear/ships I have. I just don't/can't do it anymore. On one hand you say that those who don't grind don't deserve a level playing field, yet you are also saying those who did a different grind for something else also don't because it's based on a mechanic you disagree with.
Again, yes, it is a band aid fix, and yes, there are ways to remove it and fix the underlying problem, but from the dev comments we have seen, it's a long way off.
And it doesn't bring TRIBBLE players to parity with good players. It allows decent players to compete, using ships other than former-FotM escorts. Are there a some cruiser builds that allow a tac captain to have some killing power in PvP? A few, and a good pilot in them will roflstomp a decent a2b pilot. So really, if a2b isn't causing nubs to pwn 1337s 24/7, what is the issue?
It only brings a modicum of balance to formerly useless ships. It isn't the be-all end-all approach, and it never was. Until the issues that make a decent majority of ships suck at PvP are comprehensively remedied, a2b is actually one of the most elegant quick-and-dirty balance passes I've ever seen in an MMO.
My guess is "hope" keeps people not playing but posting on the forums. For others, its a path of sad realization and closure. Grieving takes time. The worst "haters" here love the game, or did at some point.
I did spend the time grinding. I farmed the EC for Marion, and my purple techs. I farmed ungodly amounts of FC and dilithium for the romulan rep, omega rep, and fleet gear/ships I have. I just don't/can't do it anymore. On one hand you say that those who don't grind don't deserve a level playing field, yet you are also saying those who did a different grind for something else also don't because it's based on a mechanic you disagree with.
So you can't continue to keep up with it, sorry to hear that, but the lack of whatever it is you aren't keeping up with shouldn't be held against those who have kept up. That's my point, you don't/can't complete the new reps and get the new gear, don't use that as an excuse to justify A2B to compete without having to keep up.
Again, yes, it is a band aid fix, and yes, there are ways to remove it and fix the underlying problem, but from the dev comments we have seen, it's a long way off.
To be honest, I don't see it ever happening. Too many of Cryptic's PvE heroes rely on this alone and would be dead in the water without it as all they can do is copy builds and smash spacebar.
It allows decent players to compete, using ships other than former-FotM escorts. Are there a some cruiser builds that allow a tac captain to have some killing power in PvP? A few, and a good pilot in them will roflstomp a decent a2b pilot. So really, if a2b isn't causing nubs to pwn 1337s 24/7, what is the issue?
Like I just said in my last post, there are already other cruiser builds that decent players are using to compete on a high level. Also once again escorts should be better at tac builds than tac CRUISERS. The problem with escorts now is the fotm is escorts running A2B. The problem isn't the noobs using it blindly, it's the good players who know how to fly it without spacebar mashing.
It only brings a modicum of balance to formerly useless ships. It isn't the be-all end-all approach, and it never was. Until the issues that make a decent majority of ships suck at PvP are comprehensively remedied, a2b is actually one of the most elegant quick-and-dirty balance passes I've ever seen in an MMO.
Quick and dirty, years later we still have it with no other solution in sight. Putting cruisers into an escorts role and abandoning the cruiser role with not even a mention is a shame, and not the players fault in the end, but the devs.
Why do people continue to consider the EC they spent on Techs to be anything other than a convenience charge that they paid because they lacked the patience to get them for free...?
Why do people continue to consider the EC they spent on Techs to be anything other than a convenience charge that they paid because they lacked the patience to get them for free...?
funny but not everyone knows that
that's part of the issue ..new ppl just copy paste a2b builds bcs they heard its the best and know lil about the game
and thats make the game less complex and uninteresting
Why do people continue to consider the EC they spent on Techs to be anything other than a convenience charge that they paid because they lacked the patience to get them for free...?
I don't, but at the time it was early days and the knowledge of the free B'tran doffs wasn't as widespread - I ground the EC because I didn't know they were free. I did my first a2b build before there was a single build thread on the forums about them. I was by no means the first, and I didn't do it "before it was cool", but I did it largely in the dark. Edit, granted they were less expensive at that point, but my EC grinding skills are limited.
@jjdez I sense that we basically agree in principle, I just have no problem using a provided mechanic, whether or not I think it flawed, to make up for my lack of time these days. We differ on the use - I agree that it can have a negative impact on the learning curve for new players. Had a2b existed when I started STO, I probably wouldn't have played with the meta as much as I did, and that would have been a personal loss. However, until and unless a2b can be removed without bringing us back to escorts online, I will remain a proponent.
My guess is "hope" keeps people not playing but posting on the forums. For others, its a path of sad realization and closure. Grieving takes time. The worst "haters" here love the game, or did at some point.
I don't, but at the time it was early days and the knowledge of the free B'tran doffs wasn't as widespread - I ground the EC because I didn't know they were free. I did my first a2b build before there was a single build thread on the forums about them. I was by no means the first, and I didn't do it "before it was cool", but I did it largely in the dark. Edit, granted they were less expensive at that point, but my EC grinding skills are limited.
@jjdez I sense that we basically agree in principle, I just have no problem using a provided mechanic, whether or not I think it flawed, to make up for my lack of time these days. We differ on the use - I agree that it can have a negative impact on the learning curve for new players. Had a2b existed when I started STO, I probably wouldn't have played with the meta as much as I did, and that would have been a personal loss. However, until and unless a2b can be removed without bringing us back to escorts online, I will remain a proponent.
Back in S5, it was already widespread knowledge in the DOFFJOBS channel of how to obtain free purples. Heck, people invited you to ships to use their OPERATIONS officer to get a lot of purples and then grind them down to blues, back to purples and easy EC (Befoe the dil tax). The wiki has had this knowledge also since back then, but most players go for STF grinding and ignore other aspects of the game.
You need accolade advice, STF groups, trading, PvPing, there are channels for each of them with extremely easy names. If you want to learn yourself, there is the wiki. Heck, my drain build was done with the help of the forums and the wiki.
Back in S5, it was already widespread knowledge in the DOFFJOBS channel of how to obtain free purples. Heck, people invited you to ships to use their OPERATIONS officer to get a lot of purples and then grind them down to blues, back to purples and easy EC (Befoe the dil tax). The wiki has had this knowledge also since back then, but most players go for STF grinding and ignore other aspects of the game.
You need accolade advice, STF groups, trading, PvPing, there are channels for each of them with extremely easy names. If you want to learn yourself, there is the wiki. Heck, my drain build was done with the help of the forums and the wiki.
Aye, to be honest at that point I didn't ever bother with the wiki - early on everything I'd looked at in the early days seemed rather basic.
As to doffjobs, yes it's a great resource, but I wasn't one to randomly join channels. I started playing STO as a reaction to overpowered drama in my last MMO. I got better, and now I use the resources at hand.
My guess is "hope" keeps people not playing but posting on the forums. For others, its a path of sad realization and closure. Grieving takes time. The worst "haters" here love the game, or did at some point.
However, until and unless a2b can be removed without bringing us back to escorts online, I will remain a proponent.
I think everyone here can agree it is on the verge of Science Online. Escorts online had it's day I agree, but the sun set on that a while back and it won't be rising again with an adjustment to A2B alone.
having a hard gap between 2 copies of the same abilities no matter what regardless of doff reductions, boff reductions, no matter what... would be a good thing and fix most of this angst peeps have over a variety of things,
Global cooldowns... Unless you're trying to say things like EPtE and EPtW are now the same ability?
double standard?!? dude what I am suggesting would hurt aux2bat boats just the same as any builds out there that try and side step the system with doffs and boff powers
one of the problems we see in pvp is folks flying around with both emergency power shields AND engines up at the same time for periods of time, now those folks pat themselves on their own back on how clever they have been with some doffs and a keybind, but the fact is the game should not allow that
But being clever with doffs for A2B should be allowed? I think the term double standard has been thrown around in this thread already, why not add it here too
The double standard was in regards to saying EPtX chaining should not be allowed, but you're okay with A2B.
tear it all down? jeez man, lets not jump off the deep end, just suggesting they put some hard gaps between all the boff powers as a simple fix to ALL -(cause theres a lot of other problems out there that this sort of balance would solve to at the same time)
Yeah...why go after every boff ability in the game when it's A2B causing the problem. You want to do brain surgery on a splinter by getting in the weeds of how all boff powers work.
there should be a way to make that ship take on the role of lead dps- WHY? cause look at half the escorts out there that have sucky turn rate, lame over kill boff layout, and rotten hull/shield ratings?
Having a hybrid or inbetween be just as good as the specialized ship in its specialized role? Then why even bother with boff layouts at that point. That's the same as making every ship have all uni stations and all uni console slots under that logic. You would pick a ship based solely on its looks then sail off into the sunset never needing another ship ever again.
even a bug cant survive forever vs 5 other targets pouring it on- so the neat thing about this game is other options can be brought to the table
I agree, 110%. Those other options shouldn't be non-specialized ships doing the task of a specialized ship better though, because once again why even have the specialized ship if that's possible?
and trust me when I say this, most folks that play this game want options in ships, most folks what some options for how to set up the team BESIDES the bug does damage and the rest of the ships do support EVEN THO there are many on here that would love to have the game distilled down to that simple of a pvp experience
Our own team doesn't even run two bugships, so moving along.
I want every type of ship JUSTIFIABLE to be flown in pvp, as in there is a way to make ALL boff combos have SOME merit--- got 3 tac boffs, 1 eng, 1 sci?. there should be a great pvp build out there for it, got 3 eng, 1 tac, 1 sci?, there should be a great pvp build out there for it
and so on for EVERY POSSIBLE COMBO of boff layout no matter what, between doffs and consoles and weapons, there should be a way to make it work in pvp or at least a combo in a TEAM to make it very viable
We still agree, but one boff skill to solve it all was a band-aid solution that was never returned to. A true fix for this situation will involve some sort of revamp for eng boff skills, as those are severely lacking (I think everyone can finally agree on something there).
BUT AGAIN, there are folks out there that feel ALL of what I just said is b.s. that there should be a CLEAR SIMPLE BEST team makeup with a clear simple BEST SHIP makeup, that dominates ALL OTHERS, EVERY MATCH no matter what- simply put.. pay to win
An interesting explanation when here in this very thread people justify using and keeping A2B because it's simply the best fit and dominating all others.
but notice how cryptic has been releasing very nice ships as of late? notice a lot of these ships got some excellent staying power, or come with some very flexible boff layouts, I think that's cryptics way of trying to balance the equation in regards to these pinnacle ships without nerfing the ships
Notice how all these ships are instantly turned into the next-gen A2B ships? People don't even question it anymore, they pray the next ship to come out can slot dual A2B so they won't have to buy anything new except for the ship itself.
I think its a double standard to ONLY look at the cooldown reduction abilities of technicians for aux2bat without looking at the effects of ALL cooldown reduction if from other boff powers or doffs, and come up with a general standard that can be applied to all
Techs are the only ones that effect every boff power you have, aside from what, PO? That's why they are different and should be treated differently.
easy fix, put in those gaps between uses of the same boff power wether 2 copies of the same or cooldown reduction of the single, .. then you got windows that all players can take advantage of, its good and fair
Since it's just a chance to have the cooldowns for EPtX, there is that window, it's just not a guarantee and much harder to catch. I don't know how many times I try to fly after a vaper or another escort and out of nowhere I'm just putsing along because the doff didn't trigger and now I'm trying to catch someone without EPtE handy. Long story short it happens, but only easily noticed by the pilot of that ship.
mad respect for you dez, your a hell of a great bug pilot, one of the best in my opinion- FACT
I appreciate the compliment, and as someone else in the fleet said last night: we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. Lord knows nothing is going to happen anyway. Now everyone hurry off to their crafting stations and be sure to pick up a new uniform along the way!
EDIT: Wow, this thread finally brought me to 100 posts, after all this time. lol
It's about controlling the high DPS and not simply binding everything into one rotation. The user also knows how and when to use FAW for good use, not mindlessly using it just because it's available. The pressure DPS it caused was great, and when using Alpha/DEM it can create a spike.
he sounds very typical, but beam boat+ DEM is never, ever spike. no build can out DEM my single cannon scimitar, and its still not spike.
Here:
In this thread, your second most recent post.
even after i repeatably point out that it is not the case, you still think that when i say something is the fastest way to kill, that means it has the highest parcer DPS. what exactly do you think LOL FAW, LOL DEEPS was supposed to mean? parcers give you garbage information if you aren't constantly applying steady damage with no down time during the entire parseing duration. it will tell you nothing accurate about cannon and torp and spike weapon DPS, because its on or off, there is no constant pressure here. the parcer will just give you your average damage during the entire duration, including your on buff time and off buff time. its hilarious how much a parse is such a holy grail to the pve folk, it doesn't tell you a damn thing about effective damage dealing, and obviously warped all thier perceptions.
wanna know something funny? of all the ships that can do the GW, CSV, TS trick, the scimitar not even using AtB hits hardest with it, it just has cant do it as often as an AtB/2AtB ship can. could throw 1 AtB on there though, just enough room. i would, because its only sensible to use it were it works.
Tac Scim and Arkif, even the Jem Dread. All best with no A2B and could easily 'pull it off constantly' as I did personally with the Arkif and Dread during that mirror event.
jem dread cant GW, an arkif using GW has only an ENS eng, it cant have a viable build like that. do you even understand that GW, CSV, TS doesn't refer to max FAW DEEPS?
He gave points, I gave counter-points, with the same level of explanation.
dude, you apparently cant even understand what im saying. much less comprehend the nuance of how AtB effects each ship its used on, and how that relates to overall balance within the goal posts created by the best ships, and you think DPS parces dictate effectiveness.
As someone who once attempted to educate the unwashed masses on A2B, I'm going to drop in from my status as ceiling cat to point out what everybody already knows: listen to drunk.
good lookin out, at least you tried.
i must give credit were credit is due, it was ricky i bounced my ideas off of wile first brain storming the possibilities, before creating the first 2 AtB build.
I've seen him squash people in PvP with his PvP modified version of this. As well as tank incoming fire.
If you think it's NOT legit then it's you who still have a lot to learn DDIS. Or at least bring your ego down a few notches.
blowing up pugies means very little when you run into such a vast variance of skill level in the ques. will someone please show me this magical PVP build he has? it wouldn't by any chance actually have any of the following
-actually has EPtS
-a use for all that flow cap other then the leach console. hes using tetryon glider at least right?
-of course it must be have set up his sci ody for single target damage, not parcer DPS wanking right? because SA is for single target damage, the sci version doesn't have an advantage over the tac if all your trying to do is blow up your score board numbers.
-surely he must be using particle gen console instead, so he can make TBR pull and EWP 3 as hot as possible, because he knows how much those things plus his sick 6 array DEEPS can blow up that scoreboard
-he must know that with a spire core and cruiser commands that ~190 weapons energy is... overcompensating dramatically right?
id be so not shocked if it had none of that.
it looks like a build in the style i was making before doffs and a all the creep since F2P were even added into the game. what exactly do i have to learn from something i was doing 3 years ago?
even after i repeatably point out that it is not the case, you still think that when i say something is the fastest way to kill, that means it has the highest parcer DPS. what exactly do you think LOL FAW, LOL DEEPS was supposed to mean?
Before we even begin talking about parser DPS, you said the fastest and named some ships that are not the fastest at all. I gave some that are (without using A2B), and proven so just by the amount of time it takes to finish missions/STFs compared to those with A2B.
parcers give you garbage information if you aren't constantly applying steady damage with no down time during the entire parseing duration. it will tell you nothing accurate about cannon and torp and spike weapon DPS, because its on or off, there is no constant pressure here. the parcer will just give you your average damage during the entire duration, including your on buff time and off buff time. its hilarious how much a parse is such a holy grail to the pve folk, it doesn't tell you a damn thing about effective damage dealing, and obviously warped all thier perceptions.
Please enlighten us by showing some sort of data or findings from a previous investigation.
wanna know something funny? of all the ships that can do the GW, CSV, TS trick, the scimitar not even using AtB hits hardest with it, it just has cant do it as often as an AtB/2AtB ship can. could throw 1 AtB on there though, just enough room. i would, because its only sensible to use it were it works.
No one said the scimitar without A2B couldn't hit the hardest. Shame you haven't figured out how to keep that going though...
dude, you apparently cant even understand what im saying. much less comprehend the nuance of how AtB effects each ship its used on, and how that relates to overall balance within the goal posts created by the best ships, and you think DPS parces dictate effectiveness.
YOU introduced this discussion for DPS parsers, not me. So not sure where you got that from. Obviously I can't "understand the nuance" because I'm not bowing before you and taking everything you say to be gospel like some people on here mindlessly do.
i must give credit were credit is due, it was ricky i bounced my ideas off of wile first brain storming the possibilities, before creating the first 2 AtB build.
For whoever said I made it up that DDIS claims to be the first, here he is again claiming it.
blowing up pugies means very little when you run into such a vast variance of skill level in the ques. will someone please show me this magical PVP build he has? it wouldn't by any chance actually have any of the following
-actually has EPtS
-a use for all that flow cap other then the leach console. hes using tetryon glider at least right?
-of course it must be have set up his sci ody for single target damage, not parcer DPS wanking right? because SA is for single target damage, the sci version doesn't have an advantage over the tac if all your trying to do is blow up your score board numbers.
-surely he must be using particle gen console instead, so he can make TBR pull and EWP 3 as hot as possible, because he knows how much those things plus his sick 6 array DEEPS can blow up that scoreboard
-he must know that with a spire core and cruiser commands that ~190 weapons energy is... overcompensating dramatically right?
id be so not shocked if it had none of that.
it looks like a build in the style i was making before doffs and a all the creep since F2P were even added into the game. what exactly do i have to learn from something i was doing 3 years ago?
Can't figure it out? Blowing your mind? I thought you were the authority on this since you were doing it three years ago and probably claim to be the first there as well. If he wants to show you the build he will, but since you're so great with all these nuances why can't you just tell us what he's doing and why it's so wrong?
Yes you can "Spike" with pressure damage albeit not it the traditional sense.
I've parsed DPS as high as 115K in my Avenger. Yes it was not for long for in 5 seconds that's 575K worth of raw damage. Others can do more( Scimitars, other tac beam boats)
If you don't have RSP or teammates to heal available you are dead...That is pressure spike.
If you're unfamiliar with it then maybe you should listen more and speak less
Haven't you heard? He is THE authority around here because he has a thread stickied from years ago and made the first dual A2B ship EVER.
i think the only intelligent or correct thing you have said so far is there are builds that beat AtB builds, and if thats so, how can it be a problem? have fun with your beemz beemz beemz, if thats what your into do what you love! don't let anyone get ya down
maybe you should learn how parcers work though if your gonna bring up big DPS builds, and ask the no win pro's what to bring to one of their groups, if they didn't all agree before hand to bring beam boats
That's quite the paradox, how could you nerf nerf when the nerf is nerfed. But how would the nerf be nerfed when the nerf is nerfed? This allows the nerf not to be nerfed since the nerf is nerfed? But if the nerf isn't nerfed, it could still nerf nerfs. But as soon as the nerf is nerfed, the nerf power is lost. So paradoxally it the nerf nerf lost its nerf, while it's still nerfed, which cannot be because the nerf was unable to nerf.
Comments
If you bothered to look into it more you would have noticed that is the PvE setup. He has a PvP setup as well and did use it in matches where it did perform well. Nice joke about knowing meta though immediately followed by saying the best PvE dps is done with dual A2B...which it most certainly is not, at least if your capable of taking skills of spacebar. You also left off the actual top ships for that, but you're right, I don't know PvP or PvE meta.
i ain't exploring 20 pages of pve gibberish to look for some pvp version. but let me guess, its all about max deeps, yet he still uses the sci version, that only has an advantage with single target damage?
what did i say about best pve DPS being from 2 AtB? you will have to point out exactly were i said that, because i don't recall. i did say something about killing npcs fastest, ive actually gone over and over the fact that AtB builds don't inherently push damage past a point non AtB ships can create what so ever.
i did not intend to mention every single sci heavy escort. was it the nicor your thinking of? its such a farce that those are playable i try to put them out of my mind. that extra turret though, that will really show up those other ships i mentioned big time! the 5th tac console don't hurt i suppose. the scimitar can do it to, with much larger gaps in between though. good for no win waves, not so much on a constantly slug fest like the new mirror event or some of the other qued content, the 2 AtB ships can pull it off constantly.
It's about controlling the high DPS and not simply binding everything into one rotation. The user also knows how and when to use FAW for good use, not mindlessly using it just because it's available. The pressure DPS it caused was great, and when using Alpha/DEM it can create a spike.
Here:
In this thread, your second most recent post.
Tac Scim and Arkif, even the Jem Dread. All best with no A2B and could easily 'pull it off constantly' as I did personally with the Arkif and Dread during that mirror event.
We actually agree on the Nicor, I too can't believe Undine ships are playable. Oh well, they're here to stay now.
It does, however, boost shields and weapons very high too, and that is what makes those ships so powerful in PVP. A dual AtB FACR can tank 3-4 attackers while blasting out overcapped beams and walk out the winner, especially when you have a tac captain in the chair adding APA/FOMM/TF/GDF. Whats even worse is that you can do the same thing with some escorts now too.
That is why I want to see the power levels capped and scaled:
AtB1 = 15 Aux -> 5 weap/shields/engine
AtB2 = 30 Aux -> 10 weap/shields/engine
AtB3 = 45 Aux -> 15 weap/shields/engine
That would actually make low-level AtB poor for power buffs (although still viable for cooldown management). High-level AtB would still be awesome, but very expensive.
And they should run that through some kind of engineering trait so that engi gets more power from it than tac or sci captain.
Remember that story of a bunch of blind guys describing an elephant? One is touching the trunk, one the tail, one the ear, one the leg, and they're all arguing about what the elephant is. Drunk is one of the few people who first acknowledges the fact that A2B is different things to different ships, and can accurately explain what it means to each ship.
Does anybody think there's any single person or team of people at Cryptic who have this nuanced perspective?
Anybody? Right.
People don't seem to want to listen to drunk because he gives complex answers. He usually starts with "Here's how this ship got kills before" then "Here's how this ship gets kills now" which branches to either "Here's how this ship healed before" or "Here's how this other ship compares to it" or "Here's how much it matters on a team with good support or pugging." A far cry from "A2B is BLARGH and that's the end of it!" Freaking unwashed masses. Just drink the kool-aid.
Also: Not the first user of A2B. The first 2 A2B or double A2B. If you can't see the significance of this...
You're punching above your weight, friend. Drunk is literally the dude who figured it out and posted the build. It was months later that the PvE community linked his build and started facerolling. You keep using these words like you know what they mean. FAW + DEM +APA =/= spike. In baseball a foul ball isn't a hit. Calling that spike is like insisting it's a hit because the bat hit the ball. Sure it did, but not in the way that matters to everybody playing that game.
Shhhh... just drink the kool-aid and listen to drunk.
I did, doesn't mean I have to agree.
He gave points, I gave counter-points, with the same level of explanation.
He said he was the first, I simply quoted him. Does being the first to do something now make them king forever? Not even close.
Again here we are how many years/expansions/buffs/nerfs/fixes later? Not the same game as it was when A2B first started showing up. Also who are you to start classing people into 'weights' on the forums? Can no one challenge DDIS and his opinions simply because he has thousands of posts and contributions before? Has this now made him infallible? Pfft.
If you don't know when to use it, sure it would be a 'foul ball' and wasted. Actually knowing when to use it makes it a completely viable spike. Vape levels? No. Still a good spike? Yes. The best spike? Probably not, but that should belong to escorts anyway. As for FAW being the mix, why not swap for a BO if you're so worried about things being shot at that shouldn't be. This further highlights the need for FAW to be split into Beam: Rapid Fire and Beam: Scatter Fire (in my opinion).
I'll pass, thanks though.
There's an issue with A2B putting everything on global, so now we have to take away cooldowns? I don't think we need to tear down the house for a leaking faucet...
But being clever with doffs for A2B should be allowed? I think the term double standard has been thrown around in this thread already, why not add it here too. The EPtX chaining is still just a CHANCE. If you want the best chance you put 3 DCEs on your build, taking up HALF your doff slots for two abilities. If you want the best cooldown reduction for A2B (which is guaranteed), you put 3 Techs on your build, again taking up half your doff slots but effecting ALL your boff powers.
It's called global cooldowns and already in the game. The 'hard gap' for BOs was to take away the double tap you could line up by not firing the first BO before the global cooldown was over.
Or get them closer to their own global cooldown, great, nps. The problem is one type of doff can bring almost all abilities to global.
However, as Adjudicatorhawk said, it's a quick and dirty solution to ship imbalance.
Does it need a rethink? Yes. Can that work without a systemwide rebalance? I don't think so.
I use a2b for two reasons. I adopted it early with FAW as a reaction to the insanely spammy queue matches that were prevalent at the time - there were very few a2b FAWboats at that time, and it was a unique-ish solution to the uberspam.
I still use my a2b excelsior for one reason, and one reason alone. Recently I have a lot less time to play STO, sometimes going months without a chance. I can't keep up with the rep grind, or with the timing skills I need to run my escorts or non-a2b builds. I'm not saying good players don't have skills with a2b boats - good players like DDIS and others whomp me heartily with nearly identical builds. But, the FAW build lets me queue up and not get instavaped,,even if I do die more often than I used too.
Is it a crutch? I guess, in the same way leg braces on a polio survivor might be - without the chance to grind obsessively and practice several times a week, it allows me to leverage the fact that at one point in the past I put a lot of thought and a lot of EC into a ship which still dies, but lets me at least lets me enjoy doing it.
Cheers.
I feel now is a good time to reiterate the fact that many A2B users say "cruisers aren't viable without it," but as I continue to show there are already great cruiser builds in game running without it, even in PvP.
I did spend the time grinding. I farmed the EC for Marion, and my purple techs. I farmed ungodly amounts of FC and dilithium for the romulan rep, omega rep, and fleet gear/ships I have. I just don't/can't do it anymore. On one hand you say that those who don't grind don't deserve a level playing field, yet you are also saying those who did a different grind for something else also don't because it's based on a mechanic you disagree with.
Again, yes, it is a band aid fix, and yes, there are ways to remove it and fix the underlying problem, but from the dev comments we have seen, it's a long way off.
And it doesn't bring TRIBBLE players to parity with good players. It allows decent players to compete, using ships other than former-FotM escorts. Are there a some cruiser builds that allow a tac captain to have some killing power in PvP? A few, and a good pilot in them will roflstomp a decent a2b pilot. So really, if a2b isn't causing nubs to pwn 1337s 24/7, what is the issue?
It only brings a modicum of balance to formerly useless ships. It isn't the be-all end-all approach, and it never was. Until the issues that make a decent majority of ships suck at PvP are comprehensively remedied, a2b is actually one of the most elegant quick-and-dirty balance passes I've ever seen in an MMO.
Cheers.
So you can't continue to keep up with it, sorry to hear that, but the lack of whatever it is you aren't keeping up with shouldn't be held against those who have kept up. That's my point, you don't/can't complete the new reps and get the new gear, don't use that as an excuse to justify A2B to compete without having to keep up.
To be honest, I don't see it ever happening. Too many of Cryptic's PvE heroes rely on this alone and would be dead in the water without it as all they can do is copy builds and smash spacebar.
Like I just said in my last post, there are already other cruiser builds that decent players are using to compete on a high level. Also once again escorts should be better at tac builds than tac CRUISERS. The problem with escorts now is the fotm is escorts running A2B. The problem isn't the noobs using it blindly, it's the good players who know how to fly it without spacebar mashing.
Quick and dirty, years later we still have it with no other solution in sight. Putting cruisers into an escorts role and abandoning the cruiser role with not even a mention is a shame, and not the players fault in the end, but the devs.
funny but not everyone knows that
that's part of the issue ..new ppl just copy paste a2b builds bcs they heard its the best and know lil about the game
and thats make the game less complex and uninteresting
I don't, but at the time it was early days and the knowledge of the free B'tran doffs wasn't as widespread - I ground the EC because I didn't know they were free. I did my first a2b build before there was a single build thread on the forums about them. I was by no means the first, and I didn't do it "before it was cool", but I did it largely in the dark. Edit, granted they were less expensive at that point, but my EC grinding skills are limited.
@jjdez I sense that we basically agree in principle, I just have no problem using a provided mechanic, whether or not I think it flawed, to make up for my lack of time these days. We differ on the use - I agree that it can have a negative impact on the learning curve for new players. Had a2b existed when I started STO, I probably wouldn't have played with the meta as much as I did, and that would have been a personal loss. However, until and unless a2b can be removed without bringing us back to escorts online, I will remain a proponent.
Back in S5, it was already widespread knowledge in the DOFFJOBS channel of how to obtain free purples. Heck, people invited you to ships to use their OPERATIONS officer to get a lot of purples and then grind them down to blues, back to purples and easy EC (Befoe the dil tax). The wiki has had this knowledge also since back then, but most players go for STF grinding and ignore other aspects of the game.
You need accolade advice, STF groups, trading, PvPing, there are channels for each of them with extremely easy names. If you want to learn yourself, there is the wiki. Heck, my drain build was done with the help of the forums and the wiki.
Aye, to be honest at that point I didn't ever bother with the wiki - early on everything I'd looked at in the early days seemed rather basic.
As to doffjobs, yes it's a great resource, but I wasn't one to randomly join channels. I started playing STO as a reaction to overpowered drama in my last MMO. I got better, and now I use the resources at hand.
I think everyone here can agree it is on the verge of Science Online. Escorts online had it's day I agree, but the sun set on that a while back and it won't be rising again with an adjustment to A2B alone.
Global cooldowns... Unless you're trying to say things like EPtE and EPtW are now the same ability?
Let's review:
My response:
The double standard was in regards to saying EPtX chaining should not be allowed, but you're okay with A2B.
Yeah...why go after every boff ability in the game when it's A2B causing the problem. You want to do brain surgery on a splinter by getting in the weeds of how all boff powers work.
Having a hybrid or inbetween be just as good as the specialized ship in its specialized role? Then why even bother with boff layouts at that point. That's the same as making every ship have all uni stations and all uni console slots under that logic. You would pick a ship based solely on its looks then sail off into the sunset never needing another ship ever again.
I agree, 110%. Those other options shouldn't be non-specialized ships doing the task of a specialized ship better though, because once again why even have the specialized ship if that's possible?
Our own team doesn't even run two bugships, so moving along.
We still agree, but one boff skill to solve it all was a band-aid solution that was never returned to. A true fix for this situation will involve some sort of revamp for eng boff skills, as those are severely lacking (I think everyone can finally agree on something there).
An interesting explanation when here in this very thread people justify using and keeping A2B because it's simply the best fit and dominating all others.
Notice how all these ships are instantly turned into the next-gen A2B ships? People don't even question it anymore, they pray the next ship to come out can slot dual A2B so they won't have to buy anything new except for the ship itself.
Techs are the only ones that effect every boff power you have, aside from what, PO? That's why they are different and should be treated differently.
Since it's just a chance to have the cooldowns for EPtX, there is that window, it's just not a guarantee and much harder to catch. I don't know how many times I try to fly after a vaper or another escort and out of nowhere I'm just putsing along because the doff didn't trigger and now I'm trying to catch someone without EPtE handy. Long story short it happens, but only easily noticed by the pilot of that ship.
I appreciate the compliment, and as someone else in the fleet said last night: we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. Lord knows nothing is going to happen anyway. Now everyone hurry off to their crafting stations and be sure to pick up a new uniform along the way!
EDIT: Wow, this thread finally brought me to 100 posts, after all this time. lol
he sounds very typical, but beam boat+ DEM is never, ever spike. no build can out DEM my single cannon scimitar, and its still not spike.
even after i repeatably point out that it is not the case, you still think that when i say something is the fastest way to kill, that means it has the highest parcer DPS. what exactly do you think LOL FAW, LOL DEEPS was supposed to mean? parcers give you garbage information if you aren't constantly applying steady damage with no down time during the entire parseing duration. it will tell you nothing accurate about cannon and torp and spike weapon DPS, because its on or off, there is no constant pressure here. the parcer will just give you your average damage during the entire duration, including your on buff time and off buff time. its hilarious how much a parse is such a holy grail to the pve folk, it doesn't tell you a damn thing about effective damage dealing, and obviously warped all thier perceptions.
wanna know something funny? of all the ships that can do the GW, CSV, TS trick, the scimitar not even using AtB hits hardest with it, it just has cant do it as often as an AtB/2AtB ship can. could throw 1 AtB on there though, just enough room. i would, because its only sensible to use it were it works.
jem dread cant GW, an arkif using GW has only an ENS eng, it cant have a viable build like that. do you even understand that GW, CSV, TS doesn't refer to max FAW DEEPS?
dude, you apparently cant even understand what im saying. much less comprehend the nuance of how AtB effects each ship its used on, and how that relates to overall balance within the goal posts created by the best ships, and you think DPS parces dictate effectiveness.
good lookin out, at least you tried.
i must give credit were credit is due, it was ricky i bounced my ideas off of wile first brain storming the possibilities, before creating the first 2 AtB build.
blowing up pugies means very little when you run into such a vast variance of skill level in the ques. will someone please show me this magical PVP build he has? it wouldn't by any chance actually have any of the following
-actually has EPtS
-a use for all that flow cap other then the leach console. hes using tetryon glider at least right?
-of course it must be have set up his sci ody for single target damage, not parcer DPS wanking right? because SA is for single target damage, the sci version doesn't have an advantage over the tac if all your trying to do is blow up your score board numbers.
-surely he must be using particle gen console instead, so he can make TBR pull and EWP 3 as hot as possible, because he knows how much those things plus his sick 6 array DEEPS can blow up that scoreboard
-he must know that with a spire core and cruiser commands that ~190 weapons energy is... overcompensating dramatically right?
id be so not shocked if it had none of that.
it looks like a build in the style i was making before doffs and a all the creep since F2P were even added into the game. what exactly do i have to learn from something i was doing 3 years ago?
Yes, it can be. Don't know how to explain it to you anymore though.
Before we even begin talking about parser DPS, you said the fastest and named some ships that are not the fastest at all. I gave some that are (without using A2B), and proven so just by the amount of time it takes to finish missions/STFs compared to those with A2B.
Please enlighten us by showing some sort of data or findings from a previous investigation.
No one said the scimitar without A2B couldn't hit the hardest. Shame you haven't figured out how to keep that going though...
Didn't say it could, or even needed to.
Not for sustained, but spike NWS it is THE best. Not that we're talking about that, or that I said Arkif even needs the GW for DPS.
I was referring to max DPS, not limiting myself to having to use GW, CSV, and TS. Cute trick though, but kind of last year.
YOU introduced this discussion for DPS parsers, not me. So not sure where you got that from. Obviously I can't "understand the nuance" because I'm not bowing before you and taking everything you say to be gospel like some people on here mindlessly do.
See above, DDIS sure loves his worshipers.
For whoever said I made it up that DDIS claims to be the first, here he is again claiming it.
Can't figure it out? Blowing your mind? I thought you were the authority on this since you were doing it three years ago and probably claim to be the first there as well. If he wants to show you the build he will, but since you're so great with all these nuances why can't you just tell us what he's doing and why it's so wrong?
Haven't you heard? He is THE authority around here because he has a thread stickied from years ago and made the first dual A2B ship EVER.
maybe you should learn how parcers work though if your gonna bring up big DPS builds, and ask the no win pro's what to bring to one of their groups, if they didn't all agree before hand to bring beam boats
I call it, the Stoutes paradox.