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fix for a2b wanted

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  • opo98opo98 Member Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Your assuming when I say game is broken I only mean PvP. lol

    Sure PvP you can find away to beat the A2B running folks. You can even build teams to combat full on A2B teams.

    Just because something can be countered doesn't mean it isn't over powered.

    When I say something is OP ... I am not saying it is ~ GOD mode ON

    I am saying that is MORE powerful then other options. Which is clearly the case with Tech doffs. Even you should be able to admit that.

    When something is more powerful then other things in a MMO the developer.... has to choose 1 of 3 options.
    1) Reduce its effect. (Yes the NERF oh no the NERF)
    2) Buff other things to balance the game.
    3) Ignore it and release as much as you can to $ in on your Fantastic mistake.

    So of those 3 which do you think applies. lmao

    If they fixed A2B to actually nuke your aux power, let's look at what that does.

    Auxiliary to Battery:

    Pros:
    Gain 10 Boff Powers
    Power boost to 3 other systems

    Cons:
    Extremely low and vulnerable aux power
    Sacrifice of 2 lieutenant Eng Boff powers
    Sacrifice of 3 Doff slots
    Vulnerable to complete collapse due to reliance on aux power
    Unable to use Tholian T4 rep powers
    Unable to effectively use aux based heals

    Is that really OP?
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    opo98 wrote: »
    Please don't get all rabid at Antonio beammedown. He's a smart dude with some good ideas. There is really no need for personal attacks.

    Especially when there has been a bunch of constructive things said in this thread. :)

    Its all good. I have to find someone to have some friendly Forum PvP with. :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
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  • ghyudtghyudt Member Posts: 1,112 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    AtB ability is a problem when it lets somebody max out power to weapons and shields and engines all at once, since it makes those ships extremely robust. But, it is mostly only a problem when you have a Tac captain at the helm. I have a Tac with a FACR that is almost invincible when he's using it. Engi actually gives up a lot to use it, and since subsystem power is all they have to do anything meaningful, it should still be powerful for them. Couple of ways to deal with that. One way is to cap the amount of Aux that is transferred, so that it is only a modest buff and does not peg everything to max. Also you could run it through something like the EPS Manifold trait so that Engi gets more power to the subsystems.

    Another big thing that would help this and a lot of other stuff would be to impose power drain on every ability. If PH/HE/TSS consume aux while running and AtB has only left a little to spare, those powers become useless unless you allocate more base power to Aux in the first place. This is probably the cleanest bestest fix for gameplay but the least likely to happen due to aggravating the casuals.

    Tech DOFFs are a separate problem. DOFF should never add whole new function and this is great example why. Unfortunately its needed to make the older cruisers barely functional in DPS races that subsitute for content here. There is no way to use some of the engi-heavy, tac-lite cruisers successfully without it.

    Hmmm. I think I have a solution. We currently have a system that allows a player to not only exceed the ships base power by speccing into certain skills and using certain equipment, but allows them to exceed the preset limits of each system in the same way. I think removing this mechanic would solve many issues with regards to ship power and balance. Give each ship a base power level, and make warp cores the only thing that can increase a ships power. Once we remove all the excess power, players will be unable to max out their ships power levels, and instead would have to choose which ones they want higher an lower, or go with a balanced setup. Make abilities like epts and eptw take away from the 3 other systems to enhance 1 for a short time. This would make it impossible to have the best of both worlds in 1 ship. Oh, and when a system is being used (I.e., weapons are fired, shields are hit) they either drain power and restore it slowly (in the case of weapons, or you could restore it with eptw at the cost of your other 3 systems), or they stay at full power and drain. From your other 3 systems (in the case of your shields). I think this sounds pretty fair for all, and a hell of a lot more realistic than some infinite amount of power coming from nowhere.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    opo98 wrote: »
    Is that really OP?

    I do get where you are coming from and it would hold it back a bit more. However your assuming that some ships/builds even care if they have aux power at all... which isn't the case.

    For instance I could load a Sci team and a TBR in my sci boff slots on a hunter... and really I could care less at that point if I have aux ever ever. Granted I would need team mates to toss me hazards... but for a team spike ship ya it would work just fine... and I would still be able to rely on 2 copies of RSP or DEM... and load double that tac ect ect.

    It would be something... I am just not sure it would fix things.

    Seeing as we are thrown out some ideas....

    - Reduce Tech doffs to 5% for purple. - However have them reduce skills an added 5% per system (max one system) when under the effect of a cruiser command.

    So Tac cruiser command (reduces Tac boff skills) - Shields (science boff skills) - Attract fire (engi boff skills) - manuvering (engi boffs).

    That would mean 10% still for cruisers on skills from ONE class of skill... and 5% on the rest.

    For escorts sci and carriers... with out Command codes... it would be 5% unless they are in a command aura. (another reaosn to work together I guess)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    Namely aux2damps with the antimatter specialists doff comes to mind... both energy and kinetic resistance for around 30 seconds (at which time the buff cd finishes around 30s) ...as your aux2damp buff has finished, you can activate the buff again because cd has finished giving you almost a perma-active aux2damp resistance.

    Well, they're not completely immune. You can disable their systems if you can drain them fast enough. Yes, they might be as annoying as trying to swat a fly, but they're fine, and you can still subnuke them.

    Note: My Aux power suggestion would NOT affect the ship's DPS. The only thing it would affect is aux2bat's power boost when constantly chained and the effectiveness of using sci skills if chaining aux2bat constantly.
    ghyudt wrote: »
    I think removing this mechanic would solve many issues with regards to ship power and balance.

    Nah, they can keep the mechanic, I know cruisers used to be completely ignored back in the past because they sucked. The problem now is that there are too many up sides to using aux2bat and not a single down side. Make the current Aux power 5 (before stuff like plasmonic leech) after each activation, and at least it gives them one downside, because I see none right now.
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    If you're going to scream bloody nerf to aux2bat, then aux2damp needs a nerf....

    they go hand in hand... aux2bat gives cruisers the ability to have some dps ( you take that away from cruisers, then it's back to "Escort Online")

    auxdamp as it is, already makes escorts op. Using aux2damp on a hirogen escort makes it almost invincible.

    Honestly I'm getting annoyed here

    Wait how often do you die in a week... stop your complaining. lol :)

    Yes tech doffs are more powerful then they should be. The thread wasn't about Anti Matter doffs... I agree the Anti Matter doff doesn't need the +resist to still be great. You know I used a2d before it was cool... and I would sitll slot the doff for the uptime alone.

    Your right nerf it... fine by me I agree.

    Anti matter doffs... Remove the +energy Resist
    Tech doffs... 5% per purple.

    What do you think ? :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • opo98opo98 Member Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I do get where you are coming from and it would hold it back a bit more. However your assuming that some ships/builds even care if they have aux power at all... which isn't the case.

    Are you aware that A2B is greyed out when your aux is disabled?
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    Seems beameddown is an expert on writing a lot without any basis for the argument.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    beameddown wrote: »
    like.. so... many... that go down this route of UNIVERSAL WORLD ENDING REDUCTION!! (cue loud music)

    {SNIPS}

    I'm going to be honest you lost me after the second line...

    What was all that.

    Rant Rant Rant... don't take my crutch... Rant Rant Rant.

    LOL I guess ? :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    opo98 wrote: »
    Are you aware that A2B is greyed out when your aux is disabled?

    Yes I'm aware... I am also aware that even VM3 disables my properly speced toons for around 3s.

    I agree it would limit the doff combo a little bit... I just don't see it as putting it in a place of balance alone.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    opo98 wrote: »
    Are you aware that A2B is greyed out when your aux is disabled?

    I'm aware, problem is dual aux2bat lets the aux power float up with each use which requires large amounts of drains directed at the aux system (considering most people use power insulators and get 35%-50% resistance) to bring it down for a couple of seconds. Add to that the fact that they can just carry a single copy of ET/ST/HE for protection AND use the debuff clearing doff to brush off debuffs with all the constant ability cycling. Engineering captains get one more protection from getting that aux power to zero.
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I'm not out of date at all...

    I don't play my hunter all that often... honestly find the play style a bit boring compared to what escorts used to be.

    I also from time to time if I'm annoyed take my galor out of the garage. I always feel bad afterwards and park it again. lol

    Really good luck trying to drain any of my a2b builds. If you did manage to get me once with it ... that would be it. Drains are almost but not quite as bad as FBP... its not something you should die to more then once a match.

    I played a Fawmitard for a few days just long enough to parse a 50k+ ISE run then I parked it. No I didn't go and faw boat up the ques with it... all those builds do when good players run them is clear the ques. (again I know I that sounds cocky and I'm sorry).

    Again I am not saying its (up down up down left right left right SSS) time... its just obvious that what tech doffs do is better then anything else you could run. Techs are more powerful then the other doffs... and I think if we are all being honest with ourselves that should be easy to admit.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • opo98opo98 Member Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I made an aux2bat build (expensive) so I could grind through pve faster.

    So I could breeze through these missions in space easier... only to find that some disgruntled pvp players screaming nerf! lol

    Ladies and gents, lets take this moment to ask the devs to nerf some escort abilities so they pop faster in pvp, so that pvp can end more quickly :D

    Especially considering some pvp matches can last up to hours.... yeah sure lets nerf the **** out of it :D so everyone can finish pvp after 10 minutes instead of hours....

    ----Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds.... just let it go! As for the global cd after activating a buff...I want that gone cause I can't stay alive when there's a perma-snb-like debuff ****ing this gameplay up :D

    Pvpers are not your enemy friend.

    Most of what I see about A2B on this thread is just the declaration that it doesn't work quite like it is supposed to.

    Surely you can't expect to have auxiliary power at 100 while using auxiliary power to battery? That's mainly the issue with the power combo.

    There are others like Antonio that insist that it is indeed overpowered... But I think erring on the side of caution and just making A2B function properly will solve most of the omgwtfbbq A2B killed me threads.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I made an aux2bat build (expensive) so I could grind through pve faster.

    So I could breeze through these missions in space easier... only to find that some disgruntled pvp players screaming nerf! lol

    Ladies and gents, lets take this moment to ask the devs to nerf some escort abilities so they pop faster in pvp, so that pvp can end more quickly :D

    Especially considering some pvp matches can last up to hours.... yeah sure lets nerf the **** out of it :D so everyone can finish pvp after 10 minutes instead of hours....

    ----Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds.... just let it go! As for the global cd after activating a buff...I want that gone cause I can't stay alive when there's a perma-snb-like debuff ****ing this gameplay up :D

    Only if they are likewise nerfing the skills that allow cruisers to tank 7-8 people at once. ;)

    To be honest I don't think the game is in that bad a place right now... matches i have been in have been shorter then they used to be... I think the rep changes account for most of that. They also make the a2b builds a lot more squishier.

    I am not saying tech doffs need nerfed to the stone age... they should have honestly done it when they changed the global and no one would have got hooked on it. At this point its like trying to take crack away from rob ford.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • opo98opo98 Member Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I'm not out of date at all...

    I don't play my hunter all that often... honestly find the play style a bit boring compared to what escorts used to be.

    I also from time to time if I'm annoyed take my galor out of the garage. I always feel bad afterwards and park it again. lol

    Really good luck trying to drain any of my a2b builds. If you did manage to get me once with it ... that would be it. Drains are almost but not quite as bad as FBP... its not something you should die to more then once a match.

    I played a Fawmitard for a few days just long enough to parse a 50k+ ISE run then I parked it. No I didn't go and faw boat up the ques with it... all those builds do when good players run them is clear the ques. (again I know I that sounds cocky and I'm sorry).

    Again I am not saying its (up down up down left right left right SSS) time... its just obvious that what tech doffs do is better then anything else you could run. Techs are more powerful then the other doffs... and I think if we are all being honest with ourselves that should be easy to admit.

    While I do respect that you can play well, I'm not sure you can play well enough to counter a drain placed on you when you have 5 aux.

    Here are the options:

    Pop a battery to fix it.
    Activate EptA
    Pop a science team and hope it clears you long enough to pop hazards.
    Call for team support.

    In which case, the sci ship can scramble you or SNB you and you would be dead trying to counter the drain.

    Hence why I say that if A2B worked properly it wouldn't be an issue.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    opo98 wrote: »
    While I do respect that you can play well, I'm not sure you can play well enough to counter a drain placed on you when you have 5 aux.

    Here are the options:

    Pop a battery to fix it.
    Activate EptA
    Pop a science team and hope it clears you long enough to pop hazards.
    Call for team support.

    In which case, the sci ship can scramble you or SNB you and you would be dead trying to counter the drain.

    Hence why I say that if A2B worked properly it wouldn't be an issue.

    Your right its possible to drain someone good with a siphen. Thing is only a handful of ships can drain hard enough to make that a bad situation. Even if I don't pop an aux bat... I can pop an engine bat, or EPTE and be 20k away for 10s and back 10s after that with no more drain on me.

    Yes I know draining works really well right now. I love my sci sci pallisade.

    I am not saying there isn't counters to an a2b build... I will say that a properly flown one can easily ignore them for the most part. (true of any build I guess).

    I don't mean to get into a if I do this you can do that argument.

    I am simply stating the obvious. The doffs are more powerful then other doffs. They need an adjustment.

    The main reason I stayed out of these threads for the last few days... Cryptic is NEVER EVER going to do anything to tech doffs anyway.

    So no one needs to get worked up. lol They are selling more and more ships custom designed to cash in on the Tech doff. Obviously they have chosen to ignore the issue and just make some cash off it.

    If it bothers people that I call it a crutch I'm ok with that... people can hate me for it. Its still a crutch though. :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
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  • opo98opo98 Member Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Your right its possible to drain someone good with a siphen. Thing is only a handful of ships can drain hard enough to make that a bad situation. Even if I don't pop an aux bat... I can pop an engine bat, or EPTE and be 20k away for 10s and back 10s after that with no more drain on me.

    Yes I know draining works really well right now. I love my sci sci pallisade.

    I am not saying there isn't counters to an a2b build... I will say that a properly flown one can easily ignore them for the most part. (true of any build I guess).

    I don't mean to get into a if I do this you can do that argument.

    I am simply stating the obvious. The doffs are more powerful then other doffs. They need an adjustment.

    The main reason I stayed out of these threads for the last few days... Cryptic is NEVER EVER going to do anything to tech doffs anyway.

    So no one needs to get worked up. lol They are selling more and more ships custom designed to cash in on the Tech doff. Obviously they have chosen to ignore the issue and just make some cash off it.

    If it bothers people that I call it a crutch I'm ok with that... people can hate me for it. Its still a crutch though. :)

    Totally agree.

    It's a crutch NOW. If the devs made 2xA2B work properly it wouldn't be, it would just be different.

    But then we get into the whole can of worms about how weak A2B is as a power without tech doffs.

    It almost seems like they should just fuse the Doff with A2B and then we couldn't blame tech doffs for ruining anything anymore. :D
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    beameddown wrote: »
    I LOVE the deflection, its cool man, WAIT this is the part where you start insulting me personally right? or do we go after my record? my builds? whats next? anything to burn time so you don't have to answer

    cause your not stupid, anyone that's reading this isn't stupid, they can see where I am going next with this right?

    There is no deflection... there is simply no question.

    Have I at some point attacked you or your build. I called a2b a crutch a few times I guess... attacked A2B no doubt there. Why would you take that personal though ?

    I already posted in one of these threads a brag style enough post... where I stated I rarely die to anyone build. Like everyone else that plays I have a ton of ships and toons... and sure sometimes when scorting I get killed by a sci... and sometimes when Sciing I get killed by a scort. It happens I have died sure likely to someone using a2b more then once... and for sure to people not using it more then a few times as well. lol

    What is your point. I am not stating that it is over powered because I die and there for it must be broken. No I have killed and been killed by a2b boats no doubt.

    However my death or victory over someone using 3 Tech doffs... is irrelevant to the conversation.

    Make a logical argument why you think A2B + tech doffs is perfectly balanced against the other doff options in the game.

    Do that and convince me and I'll change my tune. :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    opo98 wrote: »
    Totally agree.

    It's a crutch NOW. If the devs made 2xA2B work properly it wouldn't be, it would just be different.

    But then we get into the whole can of worms about how weak A2B is as a power without tech doffs.

    It almost seems like they should just fuse the Doff with A2B and then we couldn't blame tech doffs for ruining anything anymore. :D

    For the record I do agree with you... there is no reason why activating a second copy should be bumping power back up. Things don't work right... and yes it should be fixed regardless, if they where to decide to do anything else about it or not.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    opo98 wrote: »
    It almost seems like they should just fuse the Doff with A2B and then we couldn't blame tech doffs for ruining anything anymore. :D

    Nah, give it to Engineers as a Captain ability. ;)
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  • atlantraatlantra Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Nah, give it to Engineers as a Captain ability. ;)

    Nahh, that will never happen. It's too logical and it makes perfect sense. So yeah, never happening ;).
    The dress is gold and white. Over 70% people says so. When viewed from a certain screen angle it appears blue and black. The dress displayed on amazon is a blue and black dress, but it's not the same dress in the picture. If you're seeing blue & black you're slightly colored blind. A normal upright screen = white and gold.
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  • jjdezjjdez Member Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Nah, give it to Engineers as a Captain ability. ;)

    Out of pure curiosity, which ability would you replace with it?
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    jjdez wrote: »
    I posted this because the most common excuse given for leaving A2B alone is "it's made cruisers viable again for reason x, y, and z." With that build and other setups it has and is now being proven that cruisers are viable without it. As for the users adjustments from PvE to PvP, as I said if he wants to share them with you he will, it's not mine to give out.

    non AtB cruisers can be made ok, but they ares still underpowered, defensively more then for their DPS, especially in this case. hes actually using an entire 6 stations just for tac skills, when he could duplicate that with an AtB build on a ship with just a LTC and ENS tac. thats all at the expense of defense skills, and most importantly their uptime. its a relic from the pre doff days.

    jjdez wrote: »
    What you did was offer suggestions into a build you didn't even understand. Why would he need or want your 'improvements' if it works well and you haven't even seen it used in the first place? Speaking of running out of arguments, let's move on to deal with your two other strawmen: NWS, and the parser.

    Here's your 'advice' post


    i don't understand a cruiser equipped with 6 beams and some set bonus weapons, it is to laugh. :rolleyes: there's a ton of room for optimization, like that abundance of flow cap serving no purpose, he could equip the 2 part omega set and vastly increase his shield damage, that deflector and engine hes using are just filling space.
    jjdez wrote: »
    What that was referencing is this comment you made:

    So I showed you a video where the No Win pros blow the NWS away, not using beams. Great reading comprehension you have.

    you made the first comment like 5 pages before the second. what are you on? are you seriously attempting to mislead that poorly or just THAT confused? go back, i was always talking about GW+CSV as the best way to take out groups on npcs, LOL BEEMZ remember? dismissive sarcasm? is that clear yet? you called that a cute trick. the gaul to insult my reading comp, when your reading comprehension of this very thing has been horrible multiple times now! this might be the 3rd time ive pointed this out!

    the only time beams work in no win is when everyone runs them, because so many of your shots don't land on the section your guarding, so you need everyone doing that to make up for it. i included that bit in case you wanted to dispute the random beam boat works in no win. unnecessary i guess, cause you post a CSV+GW vid, illustrating what ive been talking about all along!
    jjdez wrote: »
    Not even using a parser, take 5 A2B boats, and then 5 non-A2B boats, and the non-A2B, non CSV+TS+GW group will simply complete the STF faster. Oh and in case you forgot, the faceroll STFs are completed by simply killing the NPCs. So finishing the mission faster is great evidence that the non-A2B KILL THE NPCS FASTER. But again I'm sure you still think you're right, and somehow a comment about parsers will be thrown in once more...pfft.

    STF are like 50% borg structures, at least. its not about controlling groups of NPCs! no win, revamped mirror event, its nothing but! of course beam dps blanketing everything works beter in STFs. if you have AtB or not is a bit irreverent, you just need to have FAW on global!
    jjdez wrote: »
    Don't recall saying anything about FAW or CSV being spike, but if you could link it and show us that would be great. What I said was this:

    your saying this in defense of a ship with nothing but beam arrays, proton weapon, and cutting beams that runs 2 copies of FAW. surely your were implying something totally different about an entirely different build! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
    jjdez wrote: »
    I'd love to see this book of rules or guidelines you have that states what is and isn't "officially spike." Once again I believe you have taken it upon yourself to be the governing authority on something, and those who don't agree must not understand your clever nuances...or something.

    no one should have to tell you what is and isn't, its something you figure out wile playing. its all about delivering high damage in a short number of volleys, and a tiny amount of time, no more then 2 seconds, thats the drunk way to define it. if you want to define it as something different, or if your desperate to be one of the cool kids in the spike club, go ahead and define it as you see fit! everything and thus nothing can be spike!
    jjdez wrote: »
    Gee thanks for that. It's a good thing I know how to read the information a parser gives me and I can figure out the SPIKE damage I do when vaping. Who would have thought you could just run the parser for a few seconds time, or individual hits, or even still, do some simple math on your own. So keybind the start/stop of the parser, turn it on, vape, turn it off. Crazy talk, I know. As for the CSV and FAW comparison, we can all probably agree that FAW needs to be divided into what CRF and CSV are for cannons. FAW damage at the end of a PvP match is usually garbage, agreed, because once again a lot of people just spam it the second it's available. What I'm gathering is you used a parser a few times, but weren't satisfied that you might have to read into things a bit more or do some calculations on your own, and wrote it off as something only those silly "DEEPS" people would want to use.

    Still seems like a lack of trying to make the parser work the way you want it to, not anything wrong with the parser.

    i refer only to parces of a whole STF people post claiming what their builds can do, and how they think that proves something profound. nothing but FAW builds make giant numbers in that context. i said basically that the first time i mentioned parsing! just one more thing you were determined to turn into some kind of controversy.
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