non AtB cruisers can be made ok, but they ares still underpowered, defensively more then for their DPS, especially in this case. hes actually using an entire 6 stations just for tac skills, when he could duplicate that with an AtB build on a ship with just a LTC and ENS tac. thats all at the expense of defense skills, and most importantly their uptime. its a relic from the pre doff days.
A "relic" that is somehow performing quite well today.
i don't understand a cruiser equipped with 6 beams and some set bonus weapons, it is to laugh. :rolleyes: there's a ton of room for optimization, like that abundance of flow cap serving no purpose, he could equip the 2 part omega set and vastly increase his shield damage, that deflector and engine hes using are just filling space.
We'll just let you keep trying to figure it out, I'm sure you'll get it eventually though. After all you said you made this build three years ago and have nothing to learn, remember?
go back, i was always talking about GW+CSV as the best way to take out groups on npcs, LOL BEEMZ remember?
Yep, I disagreed and listed ships that don't do that but are better for killing NPCs faster. I even linked the posts, how is linking and quoting exactly what you said misleading?
the gaul to insult my reading comp, when your reading comprehension of this very thing has been horrible multiple times now! this might be the 3rd time ive pointed this out!
You keep pointing something out that you're not getting. Hopefully it happens soon though, because this is getting old.
the only time beams work in no win is when everyone runs them, because so many of your shots don't land on the section your guarding, so you need everyone doing that to make up for it.
I agree, so why did you make the comment about asking the NWS pros again?
i included that bit in case you wanted to dispute the random beam boat works in no win. unnecessary i guess, cause you post a CSV+GW vid, illustrating what ive been talking about all along!
I don't dispute that, and (would) get irritated if someone tries to bring a random FAW boat to NWS (haven't actually done NWS in quite some time now). Once again, I posted the video in response to your last comment in this post.
your saying this in defense of a ship with nothing but beam arrays, proton weapon, and cutting beams that runs 2 copies of FAW. surely your were implying something totally different about an entirely different build! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
It honestly can be in defense of any cruiser that uses Alpha/DEM. Just because a skill is on the planner twice for a PvE build doesn't mean it would be used for a spike anyway.
i refer only to parces of a whole STF people post claiming what their builds can do, and how they think that proves something profound. nothing but FAW builds make giant numbers in that context. i said basically that the first time i mentioned parsing! just one more thing you were determined to turn into some kind of controversy.
Then why were you bickering about parsing PvP vaping. Also when parsing PvE (an entire STF) why shouldn't the total damage dealt over the total time it took be a good measure of DPS? Isn't the ability to maintain consistent high levels of damage the point you've been trying to make with using A2B?
that's the thing that points you guys out, you don't encourage anyone to try it and find out for themselves, make up their own mind, you push your experience, you push your opinion, and to all that disagree, rip them apart:) its fine, your not the only one that does it on the forums, its a common tactic,
but really you guys gotta see also a slant of an opinion of how the game should be?, I mean he was the guy that also pushed the whole tyler durden match stuff were all the "cheese" would be gone in fights?? so theres already some dictating whats op and whats not involved with that whole idea LOL
not that I didn't like my tyler durden matches, they were fun, and as you often advertised, closer matches, and they were, they were not pug stops, slaughter fests
but lets be honest,
just for once, you pushed that for the ability to dictate "terms" prior to a match, to have the ability to "walk away" if the rules of the match you were about to fight were not your way, and by doing so sway others in the match to retract said rules or enforce the ones you wanted
(hehe, boy I am just going way off the reservation tonight arnt I?)
I take it ALL! BACK! ANT!! IMz SORRY!! IM wrong your right, aux2bat is the worst thing in the game! they need to fix it like NOW!! period!!
*feels good drinking the coolaid again, how you boys doing?
First I'm glad your a reader and a fan.
Yes I always argue my points, why would I not ? If I believe something. I state why I believe that and I make my argument. I do indeed have a picture in my mind of the perfect STO we all do and I'm sure we have all debated it or will debate it in the future.
Contrary to your belief I have indeed changed my own mine many times when I read someones well reasoned contrary point. In the case of a2b I am yet to see anything that convinces me it isn't one of the games issues. (Of course I agree there are plenty of others). Most of the arguments for Tech doffs I have seen, don't impress me. I can stipulate some things like the fact that there are many cruisers that are under performing (I know its ddis main reason to back tech doffs)... I think I just believe the cure is worse then the disease in this case. I would rather see the real issue solved and those ships fixed.
As for the TD channel... TD wasn't about removing X or Y or Z from matches. I never played in a match where we said no A2B that I can recall. I played in matches with things like TIFs and every console you could imagine. No TD was about balancing out the matches... so you don't have to play a team of 5 escorts with a team of 5 healers ect. The ques right now are bad for that with no match making... often times you end up in a match with very mis matched sides. That was what we tried to avoid in TD. Of course some of the people making matches found it easier to simply state up front lets none of us run X or Y... frankly it made balancing teams much easier.
Myself I'm ok with everything in the game... I have no issues with TIF or any of the consoles ect. The only time I find them to be a little uncouth is when fleet teams (or really good friends lol) decide to ratchet any one thing up to 11... teams with 5 of X or Y console ect.
my experience in the cues as of late has seen a mass rise in sci ships
but see thats the other thing I didnt think of, its time zone too that plays a factor, I could see how frustraiting it could be if your time zone finds you often playing against mass amounts of vapers (and good ones at that) or another time zone see mass amounts of sci spam, (stuck in gas while at the middle of 4 grav wells debuffed is not fun:)
)
Most grav well sci build are lackluster, but once in a while you get one of the really nasty "stuck in a spot" builds (Grav well with aftershocks, grav torpedoes, and the grav gen skill set to ridiculous). There are way more "aux2bat builds out there than "hell annoying" sci builds out there because people in general hate playing pure sci builds.
I find it very amusing you can think up all these things and not even address a single issue caused by a2b.
Anyways, you 32nd vipers folks seem like you know how to play the game, from what I've seen your team do in CnH. And unless I'm mistaken, you and your friends do take advantage of the a2b beam ball, cycling faw at global. This is a little perplexing to me, how are you not noticing the issue with abilities at global? And if you did, why do you not consider its imbalance, a very obvious/almost inevitable conclusion?
I'm sorry, but wouldn't 2 copies of FAW be just as imbalanced then? Or two copies of CRF? APO with AP doffs? Duplicate EPtX skills? How is the global cooldown via those routes less imbalanced then via A2B by comparison?
Lost and Delirious... and Disenchanted too Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine?
I'm sorry, but wouldn't 2 copies of FAW be just as imbalanced then? Or two copies of CRF? APO with AP doffs? Duplicate EPtX skills? How is the global cooldown via those routes less imbalanced then via A2B by comparison?
round and round we go...
3 dce or 3 (more like 2 because of global) tt, et, st cd doffs or cannon doffs or attack pattern doffs...but why do that when you can use AtB and also get global on RSP which does not have a CD doff. One set of doffs is specialized the other brings everything, even powers without cd reduction doffs to global. One can't fit all the doffs needed to get the same cd reduction as A2B. Therefore, there is no comparison when talking about CD reduction.
This post isn't for or against AtB but one can't make the comparison between AtB doff's CD reduction to the long list of doffs needed to do the same without AtB.
As for running 2 copies of everything... sure I can run 2 faw on a scimitar for example. I can even run 2 faw3, 1 apo3 and 1 rsp2 but with atb I can get 2 faw3, 2 apo3, and 2 rsp3. Thats the issue.
For me the cd isnt as much of an issue if one dumps aux power (aux at 5) which is what atb is supposed to do, but one can get the cd reduction and still keep a good amount of aux power most of the time and use epta and or an aux battery to fill in the gaps. In my opinion that gives atb a huge advantage with very little consequence.
I find it very amusing you can think up all these things and not even address a single issue caused by a2b.
Anyways, you 32nd vipers folks seem like you know how to play the game, from what I've seen your team do in CnH. And unless I'm mistaken, you and your friends do take advantage of the a2b beam ball, cycling faw at global. This is a little perplexing to me, how are you not noticing the issue with abilities at global? And if you did, why do you not consider its imbalance, a very obvious/almost inevitable conclusion?
You forgot they spam the black goo console left and right. Praise Cheesus!
Interesting Thread war i'm seeing between this thread and the other.. Don't fix A2B thread..
Don't see any dev postings so far in either.. doubt there will be for a while at least.. not with Season 9.5 and future bug fixes for 9.5 is on the way..
Easiest fix to A2B.. Only allow 1 Tech doff equipped at a time.
And I suspect that'll probably be Cryptic's answer at first..
And its probably already been mentioned either here, or the other thread. So I'm sure I'm safe and not going to be "blaimed" if that actually does happen.
Do I care if they fix A2b? No. Not really. Would I be sad to see the current incarnation go? Maybe a little. Couple builds were fun with it.
But I can also see the reason for a thread like this, and the other one defending A2B. Its too common place and could also almost be considered a must have. Especially on Cruisers.
But either way it'll probably be months, if not even years before anything gets done.. Just like how long it took for them to finally make changes to PVP... or the Crafting System they are abo- I mean adjusting. :rolleyes:
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Don't see any dev postings so far in either.. doubt there will be for a while at least.. not with Season 9.5 and future bug fixes for 9.5 is on the way..
Easiest fix to A2B.. Only allow 1 Tech doff equipped at a time.
And I suspect that'll probably be Cryptic's answer at first..
In the first post in this thread, Wast33 posted a link to Hawk's comment on it. Basically the Devs aren't happy with it in its current form. Hawk did however make an error in his statement and said "the right fix to it." I think that he may have meant "the right fix for it," but I could be wrong.
While there have been a few good suggestions on how to fix it, there are some that would tick off the playerbase. Aux2Batt has become so common in use, I believe it may have gotten to the point where it falls into the beams vs cannon performance not too long ago; with Aux2Batt being cannons. Gecko had made a comment during a podcast, that he thought beams were fine and that if anything, he thought that cannons were overpowered. He had stated that if he were to bring cannons down to the performance level of beams there would be too much outcry, and the interviewers in the podcast voiced their opinions of being against such a change. Gecko said that's why they wouldn't do that.
If Aux2Batt was restricted to just one tech doff, I think there would be such an outcry.
Wast33 was kind enough to edit his initial post to include some of the suggestions presented in this thread. While I don't believe that a single one would do it, a combination of them may be better.
For Example:
- Cap Auxiliary power to 5 while Aux2Batt is in use
- Moving Aux2Batt-1 to Lt Commander and Aux2Batt-2 to Commander
- Extending the global cooldown from 10 to 20 (though I think 15 may be better, I haven't done the math)
- reduce the power bonus granted from Aux2Batt.
It's just a matter of time before the Devs find a fix that they think the playerbase could live with.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
Easiest fix to A2B.. Only allow 1 Tech doff equipped at a time.
This. A2B stops being "the" build (for many), and actually rolling your own build becomes a thing again for a while. Until the next borderline-exploit combo is found to be "the" build.
There should be no "easy mode" build. You should have to work to find your DPS, and it should be a giant rock-paper-scissors game.
next read over, updated op (those walls'o'text are really kinda challenging to read over quick and find something ).
keep it rollin and plz tell me if i missed or messed something, thx folks .
edit:
and one more from me that i'm not sure about if it already got mentioned.
- change tech-doffs to not grant their safe cd-reduce of 10%. make them chance-based, like f.e. crf-doffs. chance to reduce cd's for 10% could be 30% f.e..
There should be no "easy mode" build. You should have to work to find your DPS, and it should be a giant rock-paper-scissors game.
this ^^
good mmo will make ppl work to develop their own build..
if the game is just copy-paste build its make the whole game less interesting
and i'm not even talk about if a2b itself is good or not
And unless I'm mistaken, you and your friends do take advantage of the a2b beam ball, cycling faw at global.
I think I know the exact C&H match you're talking about, and the ships you saw used there were definitely not what we normally use. The other Vipers were giving me a hard time about the A2B threads (in good fun), so we all agreed to get in Aux2Faw ships for one match just to TRIBBLE around.
@lucho:
You came across us in a match with an irregular team set up (for us), where two people happened to be using it. No prior coordination of this took place.
Why don't we nerf Zemok or M/AM doff builds too? Let's go whole hog! Cookie cutter builds are the result of an efficient staple being recognised and a widespread adoption following. You can nerf the Borg 2-piece, nerf the impact of duty officers, nerf ATB itself, nerf EPTx cycling, put TT back on a shared cooldown with ET/ST. Maybe even nerf the latest FOTM and say the Nukara 2-piece is too powerful. You can "fix" absolutely anything but players will always gravitate towards the simplest and deadliest option, especially if it has been popularised as being reliable and universally applicable.
ATB builds are simple to engineer and provide a solution for Eng heavy ships that do not have the Tac abilities to use their ordnance. You could argue ATB exaggerates the power of starships that are adequately outfitted with Tac stations, but one can make that argument for anything. You can even argue it is unfair dragon builds are able to cycle EPTx abilities so often, as it resorts in cruisers running at constantly boosted shield power. Hell, why don't we look at the QM doff? Those battery effects are hella OP.
ATB is not limited to a career, or race. Anyone can use it. If you do not want to use it, then do not use it. Try some other cookie cutter build because I assure you, ATB is not the only one out there, just the most worthy of derision, ostensibly. Though for my Excelsior on a Science character, my tame vessel is a powerhouse with ATB and without it, is a lacklustre cruiser at best.
Then again, I am not a PvPer, so my post is not laden with frustration that I cannot subnuke a vessel swimming in power, constantly reducing powers to GCD.
No need to explain yourself man, I also use a2b but I acknowledge that it's a crutch OP build (and you showed me the crutch part when you blew up my a2b fleet ambassador engie). It's just that your friend there, beammedown or whatever his name was, didn't seem to get the OP aspect of it.
Yeah...he and I have very differing views on just about every aspect of this subject.
next read over, updated op (those walls'o'text are really kinda challenging to read over quick and find something ).
keep it rollin and plz tell me if i missed or messed something, thx folks .
OP, you have me quoted twice, the second was a clarification of the first, if you want to combine them.
Basically if low-level AtB is weak on power, then the only value to it is the CD reduction from the tech DOFFs. That actually solves the problem. Ships that need the CD reduction (like the engi cruisers with limited tac stations) will have a way to get at it, but ships that dont need it wont give up the slots if there is no power bonus.
This is an extreme example of the extreme. Constant pressure damage making premade use up their heals. Imagine the same thing in not so premady fights, which are the majority out there. Pressure damage is all that's needed to win. Yeah... The leap in logic to see that is so hard.
that looks like the typical FAW team. lately ive been in a ton of matches that are basically just like this, and they almost all come out this same way. FAW team comes on strong, but as soon as the other team can TRIBBLE their armor with some nukes and focus, force mistakes like splitting up, they lose all their momentum and cant put enough beam volume against the other team. lots of nukes, spike, and heal teams and premades always win vs beam spam.
even vs the most FAW'd, most AtB'd set of ships. take AtB out of that equation, and they lose 10% of their damage potential, but up to 40% of their survivability. but but, 44 doffs! 2 copies of every skill! it doesn't work out the way you think it does.
OP, you have me quoted twice, the second was a clarification of the first, if you want to combine them.
Basically if low-level AtB is weak on power, then the only value to it is the CD reduction from the tech DOFFs. That actually solves the problem. Ships that need the CD reduction (like the engi cruisers with limited tac stations) will have a way to get at it, but ships that dont need it wont give up the slots if there is no power bonus.
Comments
A "relic" that is somehow performing quite well today.
We'll just let you keep trying to figure it out, I'm sure you'll get it eventually though. After all you said you made this build three years ago and have nothing to learn, remember?
Yep, I disagreed and listed ships that don't do that but are better for killing NPCs faster. I even linked the posts, how is linking and quoting exactly what you said misleading?
You keep pointing something out that you're not getting. Hopefully it happens soon though, because this is getting old.
I agree, so why did you make the comment about asking the NWS pros again?
I don't dispute that, and (would) get irritated if someone tries to bring a random FAW boat to NWS (haven't actually done NWS in quite some time now). Once again, I posted the video in response to your last comment in this post.
It honestly can be in defense of any cruiser that uses Alpha/DEM. Just because a skill is on the planner twice for a PvE build doesn't mean it would be used for a spike anyway.
Yep, it can still be done.
lol, really?
Then why were you bickering about parsing PvP vaping. Also when parsing PvE (an entire STF) why shouldn't the total damage dealt over the total time it took be a good measure of DPS? Isn't the ability to maintain consistent high levels of damage the point you've been trying to make with using A2B?
First I'm glad your a reader and a fan.
Yes I always argue my points, why would I not ? If I believe something. I state why I believe that and I make my argument. I do indeed have a picture in my mind of the perfect STO we all do and I'm sure we have all debated it or will debate it in the future.
Contrary to your belief I have indeed changed my own mine many times when I read someones well reasoned contrary point. In the case of a2b I am yet to see anything that convinces me it isn't one of the games issues. (Of course I agree there are plenty of others). Most of the arguments for Tech doffs I have seen, don't impress me. I can stipulate some things like the fact that there are many cruisers that are under performing (I know its ddis main reason to back tech doffs)... I think I just believe the cure is worse then the disease in this case. I would rather see the real issue solved and those ships fixed.
As for the TD channel... TD wasn't about removing X or Y or Z from matches. I never played in a match where we said no A2B that I can recall. I played in matches with things like TIFs and every console you could imagine. No TD was about balancing out the matches... so you don't have to play a team of 5 escorts with a team of 5 healers ect.
Myself I'm ok with everything in the game... I have no issues with TIF or any of the consoles ect. The only time I find them to be a little uncouth is when fleet teams (or really good friends lol) decide to ratchet any one thing up to 11... teams with 5 of X or Y console ect.
It is an incredibly popular option, so surely one would wonder why?
Most grav well sci build are lackluster, but once in a while you get one of the really nasty "stuck in a spot" builds (Grav well with aftershocks, grav torpedoes, and the grav gen skill set to ridiculous). There are way more "aux2bat builds out there than "hell annoying" sci builds out there because people in general hate playing pure sci builds.
I'm sorry, but wouldn't 2 copies of FAW be just as imbalanced then? Or two copies of CRF? APO with AP doffs? Duplicate EPtX skills? How is the global cooldown via those routes less imbalanced then via A2B by comparison?
Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine? [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
round and round we go...
3 dce or 3 (more like 2 because of global) tt, et, st cd doffs or cannon doffs or attack pattern doffs...but why do that when you can use AtB and also get global on RSP which does not have a CD doff. One set of doffs is specialized the other brings everything, even powers without cd reduction doffs to global. One can't fit all the doffs needed to get the same cd reduction as A2B. Therefore, there is no comparison when talking about CD reduction.
This post isn't for or against AtB but one can't make the comparison between AtB doff's CD reduction to the long list of doffs needed to do the same without AtB.
As for running 2 copies of everything... sure I can run 2 faw on a scimitar for example. I can even run 2 faw3, 1 apo3 and 1 rsp2 but with atb I can get 2 faw3, 2 apo3, and 2 rsp3. Thats the issue.
For me the cd isnt as much of an issue if one dumps aux power (aux at 5) which is what atb is supposed to do, but one can get the cd reduction and still keep a good amount of aux power most of the time and use epta and or an aux battery to fill in the gaps. In my opinion that gives atb a huge advantage with very little consequence.
You forgot they spam the black goo console left and right. Praise Cheesus!
Don't see any dev postings so far in either.. doubt there will be for a while at least.. not with Season 9.5 and future bug fixes for 9.5 is on the way..
Easiest fix to A2B.. Only allow 1 Tech doff equipped at a time.
And I suspect that'll probably be Cryptic's answer at first..
And its probably already been mentioned either here, or the other thread. So I'm sure I'm safe and not going to be "blaimed" if that actually does happen.
Do I care if they fix A2b? No. Not really. Would I be sad to see the current incarnation go? Maybe a little. Couple builds were fun with it.
But I can also see the reason for a thread like this, and the other one defending A2B. Its too common place and could also almost be considered a must have. Especially on Cruisers.
But either way it'll probably be months, if not even years before anything gets done.. Just like how long it took for them to finally make changes to PVP... or the Crafting System they are abo- I mean adjusting. :rolleyes:
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
In the first post in this thread, Wast33 posted a link to Hawk's comment on it. Basically the Devs aren't happy with it in its current form. Hawk did however make an error in his statement and said "the right fix to it." I think that he may have meant "the right fix for it," but I could be wrong.
While there have been a few good suggestions on how to fix it, there are some that would tick off the playerbase. Aux2Batt has become so common in use, I believe it may have gotten to the point where it falls into the beams vs cannon performance not too long ago; with Aux2Batt being cannons. Gecko had made a comment during a podcast, that he thought beams were fine and that if anything, he thought that cannons were overpowered. He had stated that if he were to bring cannons down to the performance level of beams there would be too much outcry, and the interviewers in the podcast voiced their opinions of being against such a change. Gecko said that's why they wouldn't do that.
If Aux2Batt was restricted to just one tech doff, I think there would be such an outcry.
Wast33 was kind enough to edit his initial post to include some of the suggestions presented in this thread. While I don't believe that a single one would do it, a combination of them may be better.
For Example:
- Cap Auxiliary power to 5 while Aux2Batt is in use
- Moving Aux2Batt-1 to Lt Commander and Aux2Batt-2 to Commander
- Extending the global cooldown from 10 to 20 (though I think 15 may be better, I haven't done the math)
- reduce the power bonus granted from Aux2Batt.
It's just a matter of time before the Devs find a fix that they think the playerbase could live with.
There should be no "easy mode" build. You should have to work to find your DPS, and it should be a giant rock-paper-scissors game.
keep it rollin and plz tell me if i missed or messed something, thx folks
edit:
and one more from me that i'm not sure about if it already got mentioned.
- change tech-doffs to not grant their safe cd-reduce of 10%. make them chance-based, like f.e. crf-doffs. chance to reduce cd's for 10% could be 30% f.e..
this ^^
good mmo will make ppl work to develop their own build..
if the game is just copy-paste build its make the whole game less interesting
and i'm not even talk about if a2b itself is good or not
I think I know the exact C&H match you're talking about, and the ships you saw used there were definitely not what we normally use. The other Vipers were giving me a hard time about the A2B threads (in good fun), so we all agreed to get in Aux2Faw ships for one match just to TRIBBLE around.
@lucho:
You came across us in a match with an irregular team set up (for us), where two people happened to be using it. No prior coordination of this took place.
Why don't we nerf Zemok or M/AM doff builds too? Let's go whole hog! Cookie cutter builds are the result of an efficient staple being recognised and a widespread adoption following. You can nerf the Borg 2-piece, nerf the impact of duty officers, nerf ATB itself, nerf EPTx cycling, put TT back on a shared cooldown with ET/ST. Maybe even nerf the latest FOTM and say the Nukara 2-piece is too powerful. You can "fix" absolutely anything but players will always gravitate towards the simplest and deadliest option, especially if it has been popularised as being reliable and universally applicable.
ATB builds are simple to engineer and provide a solution for Eng heavy ships that do not have the Tac abilities to use their ordnance. You could argue ATB exaggerates the power of starships that are adequately outfitted with Tac stations, but one can make that argument for anything. You can even argue it is unfair dragon builds are able to cycle EPTx abilities so often, as it resorts in cruisers running at constantly boosted shield power. Hell, why don't we look at the QM doff? Those battery effects are hella OP.
ATB is not limited to a career, or race. Anyone can use it. If you do not want to use it, then do not use it. Try some other cookie cutter build because I assure you, ATB is not the only one out there, just the most worthy of derision, ostensibly. Though for my Excelsior on a Science character, my tame vessel is a powerhouse with ATB and without it, is a lacklustre cruiser at best.
Then again, I am not a PvPer, so my post is not laden with frustration that I cannot subnuke a vessel swimming in power, constantly reducing powers to GCD.
Maybe I just can't empathise.
Valdus | Charn | Costello | Typhus | Thyran
Yeah...he and I have very differing views on just about every aspect of this subject.
Basically if low-level AtB is weak on power, then the only value to it is the CD reduction from the tech DOFFs. That actually solves the problem. Ships that need the CD reduction (like the engi cruisers with limited tac stations) will have a way to get at it, but ships that dont need it wont give up the slots if there is no power bonus.
that looks like the typical FAW team. lately ive been in a ton of matches that are basically just like this, and they almost all come out this same way. FAW team comes on strong, but as soon as the other team can TRIBBLE their armor with some nukes and focus, force mistakes like splitting up, they lose all their momentum and cant put enough beam volume against the other team. lots of nukes, spike, and heal teams and premades always win vs beam spam.
even vs the most FAW'd, most AtB'd set of ships. take AtB out of that equation, and they lose 10% of their damage potential, but up to 40% of their survivability. but but, 44 doffs! 2 copies of every skill! it doesn't work out the way you think it does.
thx, done
scimitars often don't AtB, with their escort station setup there's almost no need. but, their only offense as far as i could tell was beams