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fix for a2b wanted

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  • jjdezjjdez Member Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    i think the only intelligent or correct thing you have said so far is there are builds that beat AtB builds, and if thats so, how can it be a problem? have fun with your beemz beemz beemz, if thats what your into do what you love! don't let anyone get ya down :)

    Have you actually been reading this thread? If you had you would have picked up in a few other posts that I'm not a beam user.
    maybe you should learn how parcers work though if your gonna bring up big DPS builds,

    So does this mean you don't have any sort of proof to back up your claim, because you still haven't shown any.
    and ask the no win pro's what to bring to one of their groups, if they didn't all agree before hand to bring beam boats

    Arkif with cannons is best, but why are we even going over this? Are you saying the proclaimed NWS pros would use beams without question?

    Nope, no beams here

    I remember the days long ago where I would take your posts/comments/opinions seriously, but that time is definitely over now. Someone needs to start walking back down the other side of ego mountain and catch back up with the game in its current state.
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  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    There is only one glaring bug in aux2bat. When using a dual aux2bat build, your Aux power doesn't stick down at 5 after you use the 2nd one. Frankly, getting the global cooldowns AND having more than 5 Aux power (Barring power boosts) is too much of an advantage. The Aux power should be locked down to 5 to 10 seconds on use of Aux2bat and only rise from that while aux2bat is active because of Aux power boosts.
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  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    edalgo wrote: »
    When people bind A2B to spacebar that will happen.

    But also keep in mind that those who do will not receive the power transfer benefits of A2B. They're not overcapping weapons much, shield power isn't as high as well as engine power. It's pure CD reduction.

    I try to let power transfer back into Aux before hitting A2B. Sometimes rotations get thrown off in the heat of battle but that's how I do it generally. I'm also in the minority that don't use any keybinds on my A2B Avenger the USS Sharknado!

    Yes, but they still receive the global cooldowns benefit.

    Aux should be set to 5 for 10 seconds on use of aux2bat always, and the user of aux2bat would have to worry about raising that aux power somehow through boosts. It would also leave the aux2bat user more vulnerable to getting their Aux power drained and loosing all their science abilities while at zero. The video that virus put out shows the Aux power going as high as 60 while aux2bat is active. If someone were using the leech console, that would mean having aux at around 80 while aux2bat is active. Too much benefit, no downside.

    If aux got locked down to 5 on use of aux2bat, then the leech would get most PvPers Aux power up to 21, and would be forced to use an Aux battery to hike it more than that. It's easier to mess with an aux2bat ship whose aux power is at 21 than one whose Aux power is at 80. At 80, most people would have to drain about 160 total power to bring that 80 to zero (50% PI resistance from skill at 100). At 21, you just use 42 which even a good energy siphon can do.

    My main problem is, they have no downside to using aux2bat right now because of how the power mechanics are working.
  • jjdezjjdez Member Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    beameddown wrote: »
    are you dying alot to aux2bat boats?
    is it aux2bat cruisers or escorts, what kind of ship is giving you trouble?
    also, is it beams, cannons, or sci mixed in there as well?

    Sorry didn't respond to your other post there, forgot to go back to it after dealing with more unverified/unproven claims from someone else.

    In short, no I'm not, but I know how/when to get out of dodge. Again it's not the noobs using it blindly, it's when people who know how to overcap etc get in groups. Not the groups you see in team vs team (as those we are prepared for), but the groups you come across in the solo/duo by chance. I can't remember if it was this thread or another, but I posted how the solo/duo has become overrun with A2B, which should clue everyone in that there is something making it better/easier than other builds. Now that STO is filled to the brim with A2B pilots, and non-cruiser ships that were apparently designed around using it, the "quick fix" or "third rail" for the average cruiser pilot has spilled over to make more problems with escorts running rampant with it.
    edalgo wrote: »
    I think the problem here is really force multipliers.
    Single beam boat can be dealt with if smartly flown against. 2? 3? 4 or even 5? Too much to deal with solo!
    But wouldn't you have the same problem with 3 on 1 all escorts? ??
    Best way to deal with force multipliers is by having your own. And by that I mean a competent TEAM!
    TEAMWORK! MOST OP ABILITY IN GAME!

    Anything 5v1 (except maybe a certain PvP fleet we LOVE to fly against lol) will be a problem if you can't get away. But any time you jump in a match and realize your entire team is tacs what does everyone say? "Oh ****", especially if the other team has a nuc or two.
    lucho80 wrote: »
    There is only one glaring bug in aux2bat. When using a dual aux2bat build, your Aux power doesn't stick down at 5 after you use the 2nd one. Frankly, getting the global cooldowns AND having more than 5 Aux power (Barring power boosts) is too much of an advantage. The Aux power should be locked down to 5 to 10 seconds on use of Aux2bat and only rise from that while aux2bat is active because of Aux power boosts.

    This is indeed a problem, and I agree the aux power should be locked for the duration of A2B then have the countdown start over with each fresh activation. So chaining A2B constantly would mean constant 5 in aux, and very limited to zero power boost. Or better yet, if you hit A2B when you only have 5 in aux, make it go to 0 aux for the duration of that A2B, forcing people to wait until they have aux again before trying to continue the chain.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    jjdez wrote: »
    This is indeed a problem, and I agree the aux power should be locked for the duration of A2B then have the countdown start over with each fresh activation. So chaining A2B constantly would mean constant 5 in aux, and very limited to zero power boost. Or better yet, if you hit A2B when you only have 5 in aux, make it go to 0 aux for the duration of that A2B, forcing people to wait until they have aux again before trying to continue the chain.

    And for any PvE people that say this would nerf them, the only NPCs that would ever pose a threat with a change like this would be the Voth (Tyken's Rift) and maybe the Breen (Big maybe because they use crappy energy siphon 1). For all others, you can happily keep smashing that spacebar and it would work just the same. This is more of a PvP balance issue.
  • jjdezjjdez Member Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »
    And for any PvE people that say this would nerf them, the only NPCs that would ever pose a threat with a change like this would be the Voth (Tyken's Rift) and maybe the Breen (Big maybe because they use crappy energy siphon 1). For all others, you can happily keep smashing that spacebar and it would work just the same. This is more of a PvP balance issue.

    Yep, maybe this can get added to the OP by wast33 as a potential solution, if it isn't already there?
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    jjdez wrote: »
    Yep, maybe this can get added to the OP by wast33 as a potential solution, if it isn't already there?

    Well, it's there under capping the power at 5, but just to be clear, it's not it having a hard cap of 5 for the 10 seconds.

    You use aux2bat, your normal aux power will be 5 for those 10 seconds and you'll have to boost it with EPtA, Aux batteries, Plasmonic Leech, etc if you want it higher than that. If they don't use any of those, then pounding that spacebar will only give them global cooldowns and no power benefits as they'll be always using aux2bat @ 5 aux power which gives zero power benefits.
  • fakefivefakefive Member Posts: 94 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    why are you people crying about one of the very few skills that make cruisers competitive with escorts.

    go play bgo then. no pesky thought process involved
  • jjdezjjdez Member Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    fakefive wrote: »
    why are you people crying about one of the very few skills that make cruisers competitive with escorts.

    go play bgo then. no pesky thought process involved

    Your question would have been answered had you read the thread before dropping in a pointless comment.
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  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    fakefive wrote: »
    why are you people crying about one of the very few skills that make cruisers competitive with escorts.

    go play bgo then. no pesky thought process involved

    Locking your aux power down to 5 doesn't really affect your DPS unless you're running Aux cannons which would be silly on an Aux2bat build. You're posting without even reading what the heck people are saying.
  • jornadojornado Member Posts: 918 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    fakefive wrote: »
    why are you people crying about one of the very few skills that make cruisers competitive with escorts.

    go play bgo then. no pesky thought process involved

    I'm gonna have to go devil's advocate here. I've been convinced that bringing cruisers on par with escorts is not the real flaw in a2b.

    Number one, it's a symptom of underlying imbalance that should be addressed. Number two, if the other CD doffs were brought on par, it would achieve the same unnerf to cruisers without a million clone builds being flown. Number three, these clone builds really are a disservice to new players - such a monochromatic selection of builds kills the skills needed to design really decent, non-a2b builds. Number four, it is very possible to run with high aux levels using dual a2b due to various timing issues with the ability, removing the only penalty to using it - checks and balances are necessary in game-changing abilities.

    I still believe that in the current state of the game, a2b is a necessary evil, but I also believe that it should long ago have been discarded as the FotM band aid and the underlying problems fixed. Instead of working on season 9/9.5/ex2.

    Cheers.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    My guess is "hope" keeps people not playing but posting on the forums. For others, its a path of sad realization and closure. Grieving takes time. The worst "haters" here love the game, or did at some point.
  • jjdezjjdez Member Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    jornado wrote: »
    I'm gonna have to go devil's advocate here. I've been convinced that bringing cruisers on par with escorts is not the real flaw in a2b.

    Haha, welcome to the dark side.
    jornado wrote: »
    Number one, it's a symptom of underlying imbalance that should be addressed.

    Agreed, hence why these threads exist.
    jornado wrote: »
    Number two, if the other CD doffs were brought on par, it would achieve the same unnerf to cruisers without a million clone builds being flown.

    If the other cooldown doffs did the same thing as techs, we might as well remove cooldowns from the game. I can only imagine how that would break every mechanic out there. Like I said before, let's not tear the entire house down because we have a leaky faucet.
    jornado wrote: »
    Number three, these clone builds really are a disservice to new players - such a monochromatic selection of builds kills the skills needed to design really decent, non-a2b builds.

    Again I agree with you. People hear about this wonderful A2B build that does everything for them from the very beginning. Heck they don't even have to mess with power levels because of it, just run with presets or never even notice in the first place.
    jornado wrote: »
    Number four, it is very possible to run with high aux levels using dual a2b due to various timing issues with the ability, removing the only penalty to using it - checks and balances are necessary in game-changing abilities.

    Yep.
    jornado wrote: »
    I still believe that in the current state of the game, a2b is a necessary evil, but I also believe that it should long ago have been discarded as the FotM band aid and the underlying problems fixed. Instead of working on season 9/9.5/ex2.

    Yes, but sadly cryptic needs new content to continue bringing in money. At the end of the day they are just a business, and businesses exist to make a profit. I'm sure there are some devs and programmers etc that have great ideas/fixes they want to implement, but when they go into meetings and are asked "How does this time you're spending on game improvements make us money?" Suddenly their list of projects or things to do has been changed for them and their isn't anything they can't do about it.
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  • jjdezjjdez Member Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    edalgo wrote: »
    Perhaps this is why I'm biased against the Aux2batt hate bc the way I fly my Avenger my Aux power is at 5 for 10 seconds and I don't see high Aux power unless I pop a battery.
    So the implied fix of keeping Aux locked at 5 for 10 seconds wouldn't affect me at all!
    I'm all for it then!!!

    I think my solution to offer as of now is the following:

    Activating A2B brings aux power level to 5 for 10 seconds. If any copy of A2B is activated with only 5 aux power, then aux goes to zero for 10 seconds. Correcting power level issue.

    Also make A2B(1) LtCmdr and A2B(2) Cmdr. If people want to dual A2B, they have to give up the better RSP/EPtX/DEM/A2Sif/A2D/ES/EWP (did I miss anything? lol/jk). Also removes easy access for far too many ships being able to dual A2B <cough> escorts <cough>.

    Finally, for tech doffs make the stacking effect have diminishing returns. One tech doff is 10%, two gives 18%, three gives 24%. Keep the cooldown reduction for all abilities, but tone it down a bit.
  • theshushuxtheshushux Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    jjdez wrote: »
    I think my solution to offer as of now is the following:

    Activating A2B brings aux power level to 5 for 10 seconds. If any copy of A2B is activated with only 5 aux power, then aux goes to zero for 10 seconds. Correcting power level issue.

    Also make A2B(1) LtCmdr and A2B(2) Cmdr. If people want to dual A2B, they have to give up the better RSP/EPtX/DEM/A2Sif/A2D/ES/EWP (did I miss anything? lol/jk). Also removes easy access for far too many ships being able to dual A2B <cough> escorts <cough>.

    Finally, for tech doffs make the stacking effect have diminishing returns. One tech doff is 10%, two gives 18%, three gives 24%. Keep the cooldown reduction for all abilities, but tone it down a bit.

    great ideas.. problem is it's not gonna happen..
    or it will but not all of it
    but as long A2B wiil be LtCmdr im fine with it . bcs ppl will always find ways around aux power issue anyway

    edit - also why i can stack 3 technician and not 3 a2d resistance matter-antimatter specialist?

    plz dont insult me by telling me that +resistance * 3 (that have diminishing returns anyway) can have more impact than a2b
    The original shu-shu !
  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited July 2014
    jjdez wrote: »
    I think my solution to offer as of now is the following:

    Activating A2B brings aux power level to 5 for 10 seconds. If any copy of A2B is activated with only 5 aux power, then aux goes to zero for 10 seconds. Correcting power level issue.

    Also make A2B(1) LtCmdr and A2B(2) Cmdr. If people want to dual A2B, they have to give up the better RSP/EPtX/DEM/A2Sif/A2D/ES/EWP (did I miss anything? lol/jk). Also removes easy access for far too many ships being able to dual A2B <cough> escorts <cough>.

    Finally, for tech doffs make the stacking effect have diminishing returns. One tech doff is 10%, two gives 18%, three gives 24%. Keep the cooldown reduction for all abilities, but tone it down a bit.


    bringing aux to 0 power is a no............ it cuts off your sci abilitys off so just no

    aux to batt 1 to lt cmdr..... aux to batt 2 to cmdr is a good thing puts in right into the cruiser catagory where its needed

    messing with tech doffs no there working fine as they are

    the only thing i see wrong at all is too many escorts and other ships having access to it ...when they clearly do not need it
    Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
    Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
    Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

    JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
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  • jjdezjjdez Member Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    jellico1 wrote: »
    bringing aux to 0 power is a no............ it cuts off your sci abilitys off so just no

    That's the point, it makes an actual drawback to using it blindly the second it comes available.
    jellico1 wrote: »
    messing with tech doffs no there working fine as they are

    Why? They are so far above and beyond any other cooldown reduction doff in the game.

    EDIT: @beameddown, you're killing me with these walls'o'text lol
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    jjdez wrote: »
    That's the point, it makes an actual drawback to using it blindly the second it comes available.



    Why? They are so far above and beyond any other cooldown reduction doff in the game.

    EDIT: @beameddown, you're killing me with these walls'o'text lol

    They can leave it at 5. They just get no power boost from aux2bat chaining which is fine by me.
  • jjdezjjdez Member Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    beameddown wrote: »
    -so aux2bat is not a problem to deal with if we are talking 1 or 2 silly guys flying it in a match

    Normally, not really. As we have all had plenty of time to figure out how to deal with spacebar heroes.
    beameddown wrote: »
    -aux2bat becomes a problem when run in group as in full group, and also flown by good pvpers

    Yes, and the fact that there is no drawback, or reason to make most players expand beyond it. It's become a sand trap players feel they don't even have to bother to try and get out of.
    beameddown wrote: »
    -cruisers and science ships should not do anywhere near the damage of escorts cause they are not called escorts, so dps or lead dps in a match has no connection to turn rate/boff layout/counsle layout/or synergy- these ships (sci and cruisers) should just flat out be always second fiddle to escorts by the very nature of them being a sci ship or a cruiser alone, and if either of these ships were capable of doing good damage, they should be re-named an escort and NOT be a cruiser or sci ship

    If escorts aren't the top dps ships, then what are they good for? As for sci/eng ships being able to provide good dps, sure why not. What I'm saying is a good escort should always be able to do more dps than a good sci/eng ship because that's what they were made to do.
    beameddown wrote: »
    (AGAIN-- NO DIRECT QUOTES, just trying to understand your thought process where your coming from)

    No problem!
    beameddown wrote: »
    -that you have no problem with any other cooldown reduction in the game, even if that reduction OFTEN puts 2 powers out there overlaping (like the emergency power to engines/weapons where many times during the match BOTH are up at the same time via doffs)

    The other cooldown reduction doffs only work with one skill (or set of skills with EPtX) and even then some are only a chance to reduce. The Tech doffs reduce EVERY boff ability, GUARANTEED. That's my concern, they work 100% on 100% of boff abilities. As for DCE and being able to overlap EPtX, I personally don't see anything wrong with it as you have to give up two or even three doff slots just for the CHANCE to make it work on only two of your boff skills.
    beameddown wrote: »
    am I on track with any of this? or am I way off mark?

    Ha, I think we're getting closer.
    beameddown wrote: »
    personally ANY build in the hands of a noob is going to fail, also any build in the hands of a good player is going to FAIL vs a good team doing crossing healing and focus firing

    True.
    beameddown wrote: »
    personally aux2bats gimicks are not making noobs into GODS in pvp thats for sure, and what IS doing the damage is when faw/dem is being spammed in a huge group, then ya noobs can win by dumb luck JUST LIKE sci heavy groups can win in unorganized spam fests in the cues, JUST LIKE escort heavy groups can win in unorganzied spam fests in the cues

    It (A2B) also detracts from peoples desire/need to actually learn game mechanics, as said by Lucho (I believe) in a previous post. The fact remains that it can take someone with no knowledge/experience and actually make them half-decent. Why should one skill automatically propel someone to levels above their actual skill/experience?
    beameddown wrote: »
    Look man, I know you came into this game during the era of the bug, but its obvious and NOT a TRIBBLE up on cryptics part to try and make more ships appealing to the masses, more ships VIABLE in pvp matches

    Indeed I did, and I agree that more ships should be appealing/viable. My point is that A2B isn't needed anymore for cruisers to be viable, and it's now being abused on ships other than those cruisers that once needed help.
    beameddown wrote: »
    and to put your own thought process to work here, you say seeing so many folks fly aux2bat ships MEANS there must be something broke... guess what buddy, back before all this fleet stuff, back when there was a HANDFUL of lockbox ships

    guess what was PACKED IN THE CUES, bugs

    so if theres a sign when somthing is "unbalanced" or "broken" look no further then the escort that has virtually no flaws.. the bug

    Oh I remember Escorts Online, and even being an escort pilot I'm glad it isn't that anymore. My point again is that the band-aid of A2B is no longer the needed solution, and a fix for cruisers/eng skills needs to actually be dealt with now.
    beameddown wrote: »
    AND YES, I know you dont want that, you WANT folks to fly the defiant, you want folks to try and make the advanced escort work as well as the rest of the scorts (JUST as long as its cannon on cannon combat right?), cause it means you got your advantages in the fight then against them (and the ability to say if they complain: ya well, if you can always go out and get your OWN bug LOL)

    The defiant definitely needs a rework, and I thought I read somewhere it was coming (who knows when though). There also used to be some great MVAM pilots around even during the Bugships most popular hour, not sure what happened to them though.
    beameddown wrote: »
    AGAIN FOR THE last time, no direct quotes, I am not quoting jjdez, period, just trying to understand where he stands on how pvp should be in the cues, thats all

    No worries. I guess another 'official stand' of mine is that higher-end eng boff skills need to be looked at again while making A2B less appealing. This would entice cruiser pilots to do things other than A2B that are either already available, or could be viable with a rework of boff skills.
  • jjdezjjdez Member Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »
    They can leave it at 5. They just get no power boost from aux2bat chaining which is fine by me.

    I agree that could be another good option to go with, and probably easier to make happen for the devs on the programming side of things.
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  • alejogalejog Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I think the worse problem is the crazy system of weapons overcap. While having most powers in universal can be advantageous for some ships you can get that effect in the important powers via doffs anyhow. However the overcapping issue has made a2b + faw = lol.

    We went from a point in time in which beams were near useless to where they do the most damage because of the insanity of overcapping mechanics. As usual craptic uses a neutron bomb where a scalpel is needed.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]-32nd Vipers- PvP Team

    Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
  • jjdezjjdez Member Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    edalgo wrote: »
    Honestly switching A2B1 to ltCmdr lvl won't change much than cut out only a very small portion of ships.

    RSP2, DEM2, EPTS3 all become RSP1, DEM1, EPTS2.

    Devs are only in the beginning stages of revamping many older ships and from what we've seen already that will include LtCmdr Universal stations.

    So cruisers won't be greatly affected. Only certain escorts would. So you can't make the Bug A2B anymore but it won't stop the new fleet Patrol nor Armitage, Chimera, Nicor.

    I think locking Aux @ 5 during A2B usage is a fair approach for now

    It would have to be just one piece to the solution puzzle. This alone would at least remove the ability for a lot of non-cruisers to dual A2B. Could they still use one? Yes, but tied in with the other adjustments it could actually convince people to figure out other options as well.
    alejog wrote: »
    I think the worse problem is the crazy system of weapons overcap. While having most powers in universal can be advantageous for some ships you can get that effect in the important powers via doffs anyhow. However the overcapping issue has made a2b + faw = lol.

    We went from a point in time in which beams were near useless to where they do the most damage because of the insanity of overcapping mechanics. As usual craptic uses a neutron bomb where a scalpel is needed.

    Weapon power overcap probably deserves a look as well just on its own, but the aux power/power bonus piece could at least help with this (no power transfer if already at 5 aux etc).
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