I feel the that the new crafting system is too random right now. The fact that we can't choose the modifiers for the items we create makes the system feel less like a crafting system and more like a gambling system where we put our hands into a bag and grab out a random item. The way that the current system is it is good for crafting consoles, but not so worthwhile crafting other things like deflector dishes or warp cores, where specific mods can really make the difference between a great item or a trash one.
This problem is made worse by the steep Dil costs for the system, to make a a MKXII item right now it takes 20,000 dil, or about 2.5 days worth of grinding for those people who don't have access to extra refinery methods. and with that cost you don't know what quality or what mods are going to be on the item. Contrast this to the Rep system where spending 28,000 dil, or one day more of grinding, gets you access to a purple mark XII weapons where you can essentially choose the mods.
I also feel that the fact that the various components that you craft for your items should give more than 1 crafting xp, esp the green blues and purple components. It would help with the feeling that the system is very grindy by giving you other ways to earn xp besides the final product, and make those components feel more complicated and advanced than lesser components.
TLDR Let us choose our own modifiers if that is possible
"Wesley - He wants the Impossible
Geordi - That's the short definition of Captain" - and the STO Forums
converting large numbers of old crafting materials into the news is inefficient and time consuming, it would be a lot easier if there ere a slider or some way to do it in bulk.
Let us upgrade the Seleya Ceremonial Lirpa and Kri'stak Blade
For the materials conversion, maybe go steal whatever CO did with their crafting revamp. I double clicked on one of the old materials and it just automatically converted everything in my inv, bank, etc. into the new ones. Took all of 2 seconds.
With some reading / thinking / reflecting time under my belt...
1. So far, the primary resemblance between STO crafting and "other" MMO crafting seems to be in the "start with raw material, combine into components, build finished product" system we have here.
2. Building components is fairly easy, "barely" time consuming, and goes quicker than you can switch slots. However, the fact that the list loves to pick the +15 DOff instead of the +30 DOff - with no rational reason as to why they are in that order, is beyond me. "Hidden" stats perhaps?
3. Catalysts? What are they, white DOffs? Other classes? More of the same? Haven't found one for the handful of projects I've done.
4. Is Drozana gonna get the rarer components (all of them once the "not taking raw materials during conversion to component" phase)? Burnt through my "smallish pile" of traces, (about 100) and barely got enough to make 2 mark XII components...
4.5 Why are traces giving commons and uncommons during conversion?
5. Now, having popped out at least 3 Mk VI graviton generators (best I can do till I hit Scientist L5 and can craft the rare components) and a half dozen or so Aegis shields, I'm left wondering if the "progression" of crafting = the progression available to a "new" toon. I glanced at the NW Wiki about their crafting system, and it seems the various "+ levels" are geared to unlock at the same levels the character(s) will need them in-game, with appropriate "conversion" of non-class mats to class mats on the exchange. IE, NW lets you craft a +1 item around character level 4 or so (is D&D still 20 levels, so 20 crafting stages = 1 stage per character level) +2s around 8, up to +5s at 20. Doesn't feel that way here, since "tutorial" takes you through most of your Lt. rank, I'd say "Tier 1" is supposed to be progressed through the Lt Cmdr levels, Tier 2, Cmdr, Tier 3, Captain, and Tier 4 Admiral, so you're a 20th level crafter at 50. Of course, since this can be done in what, 2 weeks, the amounts of XP being given vs. amounts necessary with inclusion of time-sinking aren't lining up.
6. Random factor - not "too" bad for the low levels, but once you're a master, the randomness of mods and rarity level should be long gone, you and your "trusty crew" that never gets reassigned should be able to do what they want, when they want. Mk XII ultraviolet with 4x mods, 2 of which being unique to the crafting system? Yours after the time-sink.
7. Does any other MMO use more timesink than 30 seconds or so, even for the "final" step?
Taking NWs "Peasants do the work" viewpoint, and since this is an STO-itized port, the fact that the DOffs do the work, this "crafting" system isn't "personal" crafting, it's the level of "your crafting shops"...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
...Taking NWs "Peasants do the work" viewpoint, and since this is an STO-itized port, the fact that the DOffs do the work, this "crafting" system isn't "personal" crafting, it's the level of "your crafting shops"...
I guess I just prefer the "Tony Stark" method (IE personal), since it feels more like progressing my captain. Plus the back stories I have in mind for some of my characters actually involve them being tinkerers and innovaters, spending their off time building things.
3 things... That bother me... a lot. This does not sound like an improvement...
1. Am I crafting an item that I want or am I "Opening a Crafting Lock Box and praying to the powers that be that I get what I want??" Because I don't feel like farming for the chance to maybe be able to craft the item I need... like I'm somehow farming lockboxes...
2. Why does it sound like although I am a maxed crafter now ... It sounds like I am basically going to get nothing for that and get to start all over again... I mean I can understand having to work at it again but really???
3. Why do none of the discounts seem to apply and why should I have to buy even more just for a chance to actually craft items I want... Seems kind of like I get to work my rear off too gamble on crafting???
If this goes forward I'm gonna be honest I won't be using or wasting my money on it...
There really needs to be a purple Doff for those of us who have maxed crafting, that either reduces crafting time, reduces input materials, or gives bonus XP or crit chance.
Also, there needs to be some balancing in the amount of materials that come from particle traces and the higher-tier materials. And some way to upconvert.
Havent tested yet at all but from what i'm reading:
1. Slider is probably a good idea
2. Dilithium has to go.I know entire fleets that wont be using this system if it has dilithium.We'll just buy all from fleet stores then.
3.14 steps to craft something, that's about half too many.
4. New system has to offer everything that old system did (Aegis etc.), plus whatever new items has been released (kits, modules).
It's probably more complicated than their typical slider would be, since each item converted returns a random item. Each sample that will give a common, will give a random of the four commons. It wouldn't just be a convert 5000 of X into 5000 of Y, it's converting 5000 of X into 5000 of Y1, Y2, Y3, Y4 randomly.
But unless they okay folks running some sort of macro program (ahem) to go through and do the conversions, yeah - they do need to take a look at some sort of quickie QoL conversion thing. It's something that might not really be required down the road - but yeah, it's definitely something that's going to be needed for folks when it goes live.
Think they underestimated just how much of those samples folks have saved up. Then again, what kind of amounts are folks complaining about? Are folks complaining about converting 100? 1000? 10000?
Me? I'm looking at needing to convert over 30k of the wee buggers...meh.
2. Dilithium has to go.I know entire fleets that wont be using this system if it has dilithium.We'll just buy all from fleet stores then.
If Dilithium goes, then the gear will be of no value...and nobody would bother, since it's so easy to get better gear. Folks might slow grind it out for the Traits and ignore it otherwise.
This is an opportunity to provide an alternative means for folks to get gear they want. Course, it definitely means addressing all the RNG aspects of it...cause in the current state, gambling and getting a Mk XII Green with a [Dmg] mod on a weapon after dropping 20k Dil - yeah, I'd expect the forums to go up in flames!
3.14 steps to craft something, that's about half too many.
I'm surprised they didn't count walking into the room, sitting at the chair, turning on the computer, turning on the monitor, logging into the computer, etc, etc, etc in their collection of steps.
One of the big hopes with the new system was that it would allow us to select the modifiers we want on the equipment. In it's current form the random quality combined with the random modifiers applied to the equipment make the new crafting system no more attractive than a random equipment box. Possibly because that's exactly what it is. Oh, the table is narrower in focus, but it's still random.
Please look at modifying this to, in some way, allow us to select which mods we would like for a piece of equipment - perhaps giving us a drop down list for preferred mods with a priority attached to each box.
One of the big hopes with the new system was that it would allow us to select the modifiers we want on the equipment. In it's current form the random quality combined with the random modifiers applied to the equipment make the new crafting system no more attractive than a random equipment box. Possibly because that's exactly what it is. Oh, the table is narrower in focus, but it's still random.
Please look at modifying this to, in some way, allow us to select which mods we would like for a piece of equipment - perhaps giving us a drop down list for preferred mods with a priority attached to each box.
Heck, it's worse than a random equipment box...cause at least you're looking at some limitations to the RNG with those. With the new R&D...meh, it's just epic /facepalm what they're doing there...
The Random system they is in use for the R and D system that is new is a really bad idea. I think what needs be done is the components you add will and put into a device determines what you get let say you want your beam array have dmg=x3, then you would need lets say 3 focus lenses to focus more of the beam onto the target there for making it do more damage, or let say you want it to be dmgx2 and acc then again 2 focus lenses and isoliner chips for precossing. Soemthing along those lines. Sam be for example armor, you want neutrnium armor then you nwould need put in neutronium sample the ore you add layer wise the better it is more layers equals more asobtion of what it does so layers would count the rarer the more layers. Something along lines let the player choose what he gets by making it on what he puts in. Not randomness that will just kill the R and D system from doable to no way aint gonna try.
It's kind of funny, but it looks like that's what they might have been thinking...but then somebody pointed out one of the many hateful posts out there, and they decided to say TRIBBLE it and went all random on us instead...meh.
Suggestion: Put Dominion Nanoenergy Cells in the ground weapons school. This would give people an incentive to buy and use the Jem'hadar set and weapons.
Very Yes. To repeat an opinion I've shared elsewhere: consumable items like these have no business being in the Lobi store. Give the players their recipes from sensible places - for example, the nanoenergy cell recipes should be a guaranteed reward from 'Boldly They Rode'; the rad crystals and web grenades should become available for manufacture once you hit a certain point in the Nukara rep.
Also as noted elsewhere (and raised here by canis36)... why not apply the ship/console (and now kit/module) logic to weapons and their mods?
Some of the folks are being overly melodramatic and hysterical...best bet is to take a look yourself to see how you feel about things.
If Dilithium goes, then the gear will be of no value...and nobody would bother, since it's so easy to get better gear. Folks might slow grind it out for the Traits and ignore it otherwise.
You being melodramatic any perchance?
The abilities and value of gear is in no way tied to how much dilithium you paid into it. Take a Mk XI blue phaser beam array - is it any different whether you get it through crafting (with Dil cost), straight from a Dil store, or as a (lucky) drop from "create experimental/prototype beam array"?
However, the amount of time it takes to get the array is different with all three methods. Store is obvious, walk up, click, have. Crafting takes a little longer, in that you have to acquire (theoretically via doing it yourself) the samples, traces, extra traces to craft the schematic, and the time it took to get all these supplies earlier so that you have a high enough level to craft Mk XI in the first place. DOffing it can be quick (first run), or extremely long (weeks / months of rolling for it on the loot tables)...
See, investing actual time can be a means to "pay" for a product instead of needing a time-gated currency. And, with the amounts of time this new crafting system proposes to require, well, I (along with many others) see no reason why we need to invest both hours and hours of actual player-time and piles of dilithium (which, at least right now, we're not gonna get if we're out getting samples, etc.). One of the things that's "killing" the current crafting system is that the combined time/dilithium costs of a crafted Mk XI is higher than the Dil store...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I'm sorry but I find this system to be a major disapointment much like the new rep trait system. This is essentialy the same system as before but now requires doffs. However I'm not one to complain without offering solutions.
1. Allow us to pick the modifiers to the items we are crafting. Be it ACC x3 CRTH or a hybrid item that does diruptor, plasma, tet, ACC.
2. Allow the crafting of universal consules.
3. As far as the rep traits go make it a universal 8 like our character traits are. If we want to run 6 space and only 2 ground traits let us.
The abilities and value of gear is in no way tied to how much dilithium you paid into it. Take a Mk XI blue phaser beam array - is it any different whether you get it through crafting (with Dil cost), straight from a Dil store, or as a (lucky) drop from "create experimental/prototype beam array"?
What kind of Rare Mk XI Phaser Array?
First issue would be that the Mk XI Phaser Array from the Dil Store is Very Rare. The price of that array is going to vary, in of itself, depending on if the player is in a fleet - and - if they are in a fleet, what tier their Dilithium mine is.
I'm in a fleet with just a T1 Mine, so it's a minimal discount - just 4%. So looking at the Dil store, I see there are two VR Mk XI Phaser Beam Arrays available for 21716 Dil.
The mods available on those two are:
[Acc][CrtD][Dmg]
[CrtD]x2[Dmg]
You know, Phaser probably wasn't the best choice. Cause there's some fun to be had looking at Antiproton, am I right?
Same price because of the discount, but with the following mod choices:
[Acc][CrtH][Dmg]
[CrtD]x2[Dmg]
Course, if you wanted one with [CrtH][Dmg]x2 instead...you could pick it up for 15230 Dil (+resources) by crafting it in the current system.
So here's the kicker...Fluid Dynamics. Yep, the mission Fluid Dynamics provides VR Mk XI [Acc][CrtH][Dmg] AP Beam Arrays as a mission reward. So an Array that would cost somebody not in a fleet (or in a fleet without a Dil discount) 22620 Dil...is a free reward for somebody running Fluid Dynamics. You can run it over and over and over - get as many as you want!
But if you wanted [Acc]x3 or [CrtH]x3...you'd be SOL. If you wanted Phaser, Tetryon, Plasma, Polaron, or Disruptor...you'd be SOL.
Now where the proposed system fails is in dropping out 5k Dil for what you'd hope to get...could get you Very Rare, Rare, Uncommon, or even Common if your skill is low...as well as ending up with random mods. That's just not the kind of gambling folks are going to do, right? Cause you could easily end up dropping 5k Dil for vendor trash.
Even if we could pick the mods, folks think that 5k Dil would be too much, right?
Let's move on to the 20k Dil and Mk XII, k? With the RNG system in place..."oh hell no!"...is pretty much the answer. Not sure what they're thinking there. You're guaranteed a Mk XII Green with some random mod...if they think that's worth 20k Dil...er...yeah...no.
But even if we could pick the mods and had a VR Mk XII there...folks think there shouldn't be Dil involved, eh?
What would that mean for other Dil based weapons? Reputation and Fleet? Heck, what would that mean for real cash based weapons? Lock Box and Lobi?
And that's where if you're going to do something comparable to those items - near them - then they need to have a comparable price, no? Otherwise the others will be avoided in favor of the cheaper, no? Well, DPS and PvP folks might go more expensive...but in general?
So if you don't make them comparable, but make them cheaper through some other means - how less comparable do they end up being? To the point that...nobody bothers?
They need to have value for folks to bother...without ruining the value of other items.
However, the amount of time it takes to get the array is different with all three methods. Store is obvious, walk up, click, have. Crafting takes a little longer, in that you have to acquire (theoretically via doing it yourself) the samples, traces, extra traces to craft the schematic, and the time it took to get all these supplies earlier so that you have a high enough level to craft Mk XI in the first place. DOffing it can be quick (first run), or extremely long (weeks / months of rolling for it on the loot tables)...
Which is where they've gone with a reduced Dil cost, taking into account the investment to get to the point to be able to craft the item...
See, investing actual time can be a means to "pay" for a product instead of needing a time-gated currency. And, with the amounts of time this new crafting system proposes to require, well, I (along with many others) see no reason why we need to invest both hours and hours of actual player-time and piles of dilithium (which, at least right now, we're not gonna get if we're out getting samples, etc.). One of the things that's "killing" the current crafting system is that the combined time/dilithium costs of a crafted Mk XI is higher than the Dil store...
Yes, that's the current system. It's part of why it's dead. It's where they've removed Dil costs for Mk X and lower. It's where a Mk XI is 5k instead of 7 to 30k+ Dil. It's where a Mk XII that didn't exist is 20k, where a Mk XI could have been 30k+.
Time isn't effort...effort is effort. Waiting isn't effort...
Don't get me wrong, I think a 20k Dil pseudo Lock Box to get random rarity/mods is stupid. That's 129 ZEN. I'd rather buy a Key. If nothing else, I'd eventually have the Lobi to buy a ship to sell to buy Lock Box weapons I want off the Exchange.
20k Dil is ridiculous for that kind of RNG. If I could pick the mods...well then, I'm looking at a cheaper alternative to some other stuff out there for alts and the like where I don't care - while I'm still looking at better stuff for other guys.
Guys you will want to look at the thread and screenshot I posted in this forum. Things are NOT ok with this system. I'm not a doomsayer, some of you know that, but this is BAD.
Annoyed and frustrated would be more likely...
<snip thought out yet somehow irrelevant fluff>
Perhaps it's your frustration showing, however, I posted a direct reply (bad example, but still) to your earlier statement that a crafting system with no dilithium input = bad enough items that nobody would want from crafting.
Then you inadvertently highlight the point that it's quite possible to get comparable gear (your example of fluid dynamics antiproton reward - repeatable) for zero dilithium cost yet a semi-decent (6-8 runs of the mission) time investment only. Chasered with a 20k dil "spin" of the die = too steep of a cost to gamble...
That's why many of us are calling for the elimination of Dil costs from crafting. Either that, or a massive uptake in Dil earnings to "offset" the costs involved... I know in the announcement thread I've been taking more the second course - more Dil and count on some reduction as considered by Hawk already...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I havent been able to test it yet but I can say I am very disappointed in what I have read.
If you get rid of all the things you click on in a crafting system you can have 4 kinds.
Mostly junk in - Mostly junk out
Mostly junk in - Mostly good out
Mostly good in - Mostly good out
Mostly good in - Mostly junk out
*Junk in equals cheap in game drops and EC, good in is Dilithium
*Junk out is VR Mk XII gear with mods I dont want, good out is VR Mk XII gear with mods I do want.
Guess which one you guys have mostly good in - mostly junk out. So a little math, lets say I level to max without using Dilithium and I finally want to make 4 Beam arrays that are all Accx3. Now I am guessing but lets say I have a 50% chance to get a VR array. With the 4 mods we have there are 20 combinations. So I will have to make 40 weapons on average to get the one I want, but wait I want 4 so 160 TIMES! Or 3,200,000 Dilithium!!!! Thats 400 days of hitting the 8000 cap to grind in game or over $200 at an exchange rate of 150 Dilithium per one Zen.
You guys screwed up and now the forums are pissed and they should be. Just like my boss gets mad at me when I make a mistake.
You can fix it one of two different ways.
The easy way junk in junk out or drop the dilithium cost completely.
The better way good in good out keep the dilithium cost(maybe a little less) and let people pick their mods. Just let people pick the order mods are applied so if they are trying to make a Accx2 and CrtH they can have the CrtH go first (so if they only get a green they know it will be CrtH) or they can have CrtH go last and they know if they get a Blue it will be Accx2.
I know it sounds crazy but I think people are a lot happier almost getting what they want then not even close. Just think about when people buy lottery tickets I have heard people say I was only one number off they were happier even though they could have been a million off and the outcome was the same.
Extra bonus, make it so people can break down current weapons for a chance to get the mods. That way the old vender trash will have more value and new players can sell more drops early in game, make more EC and try more kinds of ship build. That will make them more invested in the game and more will to spend real money.
Well thats my 2 cents. And here is an extra penny keep it the way it is and I sadly will have no need for it.
also if somebody already said all this sorry I didn't read all the post before mine.
I really hate to sound negative but I have to chime in.
1: Dilithium requirements are horrid and, like the old system, I will not be using it if it has a dilithium requirement. The dilithium timesink mechanic in this game is disgusting. I have NO words for how much it sickens me. I already bought the lifetime sub, people who are playing F2P are going to do so regardless, people playing monthly subs will continue to do so. (and for the record I completely support and respect all 3 choices) We're not stupid, we don't need a carrot on a stick like dilithium to trick us into playing. I would bet money that more people have quit over stupid timesinks than get roped in long term by them.... But I digress.
2: I dump 20k dilithium to get a RANDOM reward? This is a joke, right? Whoever dreamed this (and like Dr. Sheldon Cooper I reserve this term for only when it truly applies) "malarkey" up should be publicly shamed. Why in the UNIVERSE would I waste that much time on a random reward?
I love it when game developers waste hundreds if not thousands of man hours concocting up complex systems that NO players utilize. My humble suggestion is to preplan the inevitable 2016 revamp to the useless crafting system that nobody uses that you are developing now to save yourself some time. Just forecast what this useless steaming pile of refuse will be like in 2 years, wipe the slate clean and start over. I swear on all that is holy nobody will argue if you guys scrap the whole thing and postpone it by 4 months. We'd rather get nothing than... well... engineered, advertized and hyped up nothing.
Again, I'm not trying to flame but this really is how myself and many others feel. Please take the suggestion and work on this longer to make it better. We'll all benefit for it. Thank you.
*edit*
3: Why duty officers? that's another system that should have died before it could gestate. I realize that (for some dumbfoundingly unimaginable reason) I am in the minority on this one, but I LOATHE the duty officer system. Up until now it has remained mostly optional, but if I must play spreadsheet roster online 9000 to craft, no thank you.
I agree with you. This game would be so much better without duty officers. All they are is a worthless cash dump and a way for exploiters to exploit. Tech doffs are the real power creep.
20,000 dill for mkxii with random mods i can not choose?
pass i'll save my resources for fleet gear. if it was just a dill cost to "get it now" and end the project early fine but to also get the components and then also a cost to end it early uhh no.
- Perhaps when mousing over 'Common/ Uncommon/Random Crafting Materials' a list of the items gained through conversion should pop up. It should also list the average yield of each item gained.
R & D Duty Officer Tab
- Items such as Focusing Lens, Isolinear Circuitry and EPS Conduits are shared across multiple Research Schools but fundamentally are the same. It would be preferable for universal items to be put into a single research school while more specialised items remain in each respective school.
- Perhaps a mild colour scheme to distinguish between basic crafted components, rarer components, ground items and space items in the menus?
- A cost list is shown when creating an item; the icons should show how many units of an item already exist. Clicking on an icon should also link to the relevant page for crafting more of that component.
For more feedback I'd need something specific to focus upon, otherwise I'll wait and see what further developments are made in the coming month/s.
sig.
It's not what is done or said but why.
Words and actions may be judged, but motives?
What would be nice is if the devs had a forum asking the:( player base about what they wanted in the game and how things should be improved. Much like Bioware did in the Mass Effect games.
Comments
This problem is made worse by the steep Dil costs for the system, to make a a MKXII item right now it takes 20,000 dil, or about 2.5 days worth of grinding for those people who don't have access to extra refinery methods. and with that cost you don't know what quality or what mods are going to be on the item. Contrast this to the Rep system where spending 28,000 dil, or one day more of grinding, gets you access to a purple mark XII weapons where you can essentially choose the mods.
I also feel that the fact that the various components that you craft for your items should give more than 1 crafting xp, esp the green blues and purple components. It would help with the feeling that the system is very grindy by giving you other ways to earn xp besides the final product, and make those components feel more complicated and advanced than lesser components.
TLDR Let us choose our own modifiers if that is possible
Geordi - That's the short definition of Captain" - and the STO Forums
Let us upgrade the Seleya Ceremonial Lirpa and Kri'stak Blade
Mine Trap Supporter
1. So far, the primary resemblance between STO crafting and "other" MMO crafting seems to be in the "start with raw material, combine into components, build finished product" system we have here.
2. Building components is fairly easy, "barely" time consuming, and goes quicker than you can switch slots. However, the fact that the list loves to pick the +15 DOff instead of the +30 DOff - with no rational reason as to why they are in that order, is beyond me. "Hidden" stats perhaps?
3. Catalysts? What are they, white DOffs? Other classes? More of the same? Haven't found one for the handful of projects I've done.
4. Is Drozana gonna get the rarer components (all of them once the "not taking raw materials during conversion to component" phase)? Burnt through my "smallish pile" of traces, (about 100) and barely got enough to make 2 mark XII components...
4.5 Why are traces giving commons and uncommons during conversion?
5. Now, having popped out at least 3 Mk VI graviton generators (best I can do till I hit Scientist L5 and can craft the rare components) and a half dozen or so Aegis shields, I'm left wondering if the "progression" of crafting = the progression available to a "new" toon. I glanced at the NW Wiki about their crafting system, and it seems the various "+ levels" are geared to unlock at the same levels the character(s) will need them in-game, with appropriate "conversion" of non-class mats to class mats on the exchange. IE, NW lets you craft a +1 item around character level 4 or so (is D&D still 20 levels, so 20 crafting stages = 1 stage per character level) +2s around 8, up to +5s at 20. Doesn't feel that way here, since "tutorial" takes you through most of your Lt. rank, I'd say "Tier 1" is supposed to be progressed through the Lt Cmdr levels, Tier 2, Cmdr, Tier 3, Captain, and Tier 4 Admiral, so you're a 20th level crafter at 50. Of course, since this can be done in what, 2 weeks, the amounts of XP being given vs. amounts necessary with inclusion of time-sinking aren't lining up.
6. Random factor - not "too" bad for the low levels, but once you're a master, the randomness of mods and rarity level should be long gone, you and your "trusty crew" that never gets reassigned should be able to do what they want, when they want. Mk XII ultraviolet with 4x mods, 2 of which being unique to the crafting system? Yours after the time-sink.
7. Does any other MMO use more timesink than 30 seconds or so, even for the "final" step?
Taking NWs "Peasants do the work" viewpoint, and since this is an STO-itized port, the fact that the DOffs do the work, this "crafting" system isn't "personal" crafting, it's the level of "your crafting shops"...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I guess I just prefer the "Tony Stark" method (IE personal), since it feels more like progressing my captain. Plus the back stories I have in mind for some of my characters actually involve them being tinkerers and innovaters, spending their off time building things.
1. Am I crafting an item that I want or am I "Opening a Crafting Lock Box and praying to the powers that be that I get what I want??" Because I don't feel like farming for the chance to maybe be able to craft the item I need... like I'm somehow farming lockboxes...
2. Why does it sound like although I am a maxed crafter now ... It sounds like I am basically going to get nothing for that and get to start all over again... I mean I can understand having to work at it again but really???
3. Why do none of the discounts seem to apply and why should I have to buy even more just for a chance to actually craft items I want... Seems kind of like I get to work my rear off too gamble on crafting???
If this goes forward I'm gonna be honest I won't be using or wasting my money on it...
My new sig till Cryptic fixes it....
Also, there needs to be some balancing in the amount of materials that come from particle traces and the higher-tier materials. And some way to upconvert.
1. Slider is probably a good idea
2. Dilithium has to go.I know entire fleets that wont be using this system if it has dilithium.We'll just buy all from fleet stores then.
3.14 steps to craft something, that's about half too many.
4. New system has to offer everything that old system did (Aegis etc.), plus whatever new items has been released (kits, modules).
Some of the folks are being overly melodramatic and hysterical...best bet is to take a look yourself to see how you feel about things.
It's probably more complicated than their typical slider would be, since each item converted returns a random item. Each sample that will give a common, will give a random of the four commons. It wouldn't just be a convert 5000 of X into 5000 of Y, it's converting 5000 of X into 5000 of Y1, Y2, Y3, Y4 randomly.
But unless they okay folks running some sort of macro program (ahem) to go through and do the conversions, yeah - they do need to take a look at some sort of quickie QoL conversion thing. It's something that might not really be required down the road - but yeah, it's definitely something that's going to be needed for folks when it goes live.
Think they underestimated just how much of those samples folks have saved up. Then again, what kind of amounts are folks complaining about? Are folks complaining about converting 100? 1000? 10000?
Me? I'm looking at needing to convert over 30k of the wee buggers...meh.
If Dilithium goes, then the gear will be of no value...and nobody would bother, since it's so easy to get better gear. Folks might slow grind it out for the Traits and ignore it otherwise.
This is an opportunity to provide an alternative means for folks to get gear they want. Course, it definitely means addressing all the RNG aspects of it...cause in the current state, gambling and getting a Mk XII Green with a [Dmg] mod on a weapon after dropping 20k Dil - yeah, I'd expect the forums to go up in flames!
I'm surprised they didn't count walking into the room, sitting at the chair, turning on the computer, turning on the monitor, logging into the computer, etc, etc, etc in their collection of steps.
Hrmm, will have to see where everything goes with that...
Please look at modifying this to, in some way, allow us to select which mods we would like for a piece of equipment - perhaps giving us a drop down list for preferred mods with a priority attached to each box.
Heck, it's worse than a random equipment box...cause at least you're looking at some limitations to the RNG with those. With the new R&D...meh, it's just epic /facepalm what they're doing there...
It's kind of funny, but it looks like that's what they might have been thinking...but then somebody pointed out one of the many hateful posts out there, and they decided to say TRIBBLE it and went all random on us instead...meh.
Very Yes. To repeat an opinion I've shared elsewhere: consumable items like these have no business being in the Lobi store. Give the players their recipes from sensible places - for example, the nanoenergy cell recipes should be a guaranteed reward from 'Boldly They Rode'; the rad crystals and web grenades should become available for manufacture once you hit a certain point in the Nukara rep.
Also as noted elsewhere (and raised here by canis36)... why not apply the ship/console (and now kit/module) logic to weapons and their mods?
You being melodramatic any perchance?
The abilities and value of gear is in no way tied to how much dilithium you paid into it. Take a Mk XI blue phaser beam array - is it any different whether you get it through crafting (with Dil cost), straight from a Dil store, or as a (lucky) drop from "create experimental/prototype beam array"?
However, the amount of time it takes to get the array is different with all three methods. Store is obvious, walk up, click, have. Crafting takes a little longer, in that you have to acquire (theoretically via doing it yourself) the samples, traces, extra traces to craft the schematic, and the time it took to get all these supplies earlier so that you have a high enough level to craft Mk XI in the first place. DOffing it can be quick (first run), or extremely long (weeks / months of rolling for it on the loot tables)...
See, investing actual time can be a means to "pay" for a product instead of needing a time-gated currency. And, with the amounts of time this new crafting system proposes to require, well, I (along with many others) see no reason why we need to invest both hours and hours of actual player-time and piles of dilithium (which, at least right now, we're not gonna get if we're out getting samples, etc.). One of the things that's "killing" the current crafting system is that the combined time/dilithium costs of a crafted Mk XI is higher than the Dil store...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
1. Allow us to pick the modifiers to the items we are crafting. Be it ACC x3 CRTH or a hybrid item that does diruptor, plasma, tet, ACC.
2. Allow the crafting of universal consules.
3. As far as the rep traits go make it a universal 8 like our character traits are. If we want to run 6 space and only 2 ground traits let us.
Annoyed and frustrated would be more likely...
What kind of Rare Mk XI Phaser Array?
First issue would be that the Mk XI Phaser Array from the Dil Store is Very Rare. The price of that array is going to vary, in of itself, depending on if the player is in a fleet - and - if they are in a fleet, what tier their Dilithium mine is.
I'm in a fleet with just a T1 Mine, so it's a minimal discount - just 4%. So looking at the Dil store, I see there are two VR Mk XI Phaser Beam Arrays available for 21716 Dil.
The mods available on those two are:
[Acc][CrtD][Dmg]
[CrtD]x2[Dmg]
You know, Phaser probably wasn't the best choice. Cause there's some fun to be had looking at Antiproton, am I right?
Same price because of the discount, but with the following mod choices:
[Acc][CrtH][Dmg]
[CrtD]x2[Dmg]
Course, if you wanted one with [CrtH][Dmg]x2 instead...you could pick it up for 15230 Dil (+resources) by crafting it in the current system.
So here's the kicker...Fluid Dynamics. Yep, the mission Fluid Dynamics provides VR Mk XI [Acc][CrtH][Dmg] AP Beam Arrays as a mission reward. So an Array that would cost somebody not in a fleet (or in a fleet without a Dil discount) 22620 Dil...is a free reward for somebody running Fluid Dynamics. You can run it over and over and over - get as many as you want!
But if you wanted [Acc]x3 or [CrtH]x3...you'd be SOL. If you wanted Phaser, Tetryon, Plasma, Polaron, or Disruptor...you'd be SOL.
Now where the proposed system fails is in dropping out 5k Dil for what you'd hope to get...could get you Very Rare, Rare, Uncommon, or even Common if your skill is low...as well as ending up with random mods. That's just not the kind of gambling folks are going to do, right? Cause you could easily end up dropping 5k Dil for vendor trash.
Even if we could pick the mods, folks think that 5k Dil would be too much, right?
Let's move on to the 20k Dil and Mk XII, k? With the RNG system in place..."oh hell no!"...is pretty much the answer. Not sure what they're thinking there. You're guaranteed a Mk XII Green with some random mod...if they think that's worth 20k Dil...er...yeah...no.
But even if we could pick the mods and had a VR Mk XII there...folks think there shouldn't be Dil involved, eh?
What would that mean for other Dil based weapons? Reputation and Fleet? Heck, what would that mean for real cash based weapons? Lock Box and Lobi?
And that's where if you're going to do something comparable to those items - near them - then they need to have a comparable price, no? Otherwise the others will be avoided in favor of the cheaper, no? Well, DPS and PvP folks might go more expensive...but in general?
So if you don't make them comparable, but make them cheaper through some other means - how less comparable do they end up being? To the point that...nobody bothers?
They need to have value for folks to bother...without ruining the value of other items.
It's pretty straightforward...pretty simple.
Which is where they've gone with a reduced Dil cost, taking into account the investment to get to the point to be able to craft the item...
Yes, that's the current system. It's part of why it's dead. It's where they've removed Dil costs for Mk X and lower. It's where a Mk XI is 5k instead of 7 to 30k+ Dil. It's where a Mk XII that didn't exist is 20k, where a Mk XI could have been 30k+.
Time isn't effort...effort is effort. Waiting isn't effort...
Don't get me wrong, I think a 20k Dil pseudo Lock Box to get random rarity/mods is stupid. That's 129 ZEN. I'd rather buy a Key. If nothing else, I'd eventually have the Lobi to buy a ship to sell to buy Lock Box weapons I want off the Exchange.
20k Dil is ridiculous for that kind of RNG. If I could pick the mods...well then, I'm looking at a cheaper alternative to some other stuff out there for alts and the like where I don't care - while I'm still looking at better stuff for other guys.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1148621
Perhaps it's your frustration showing, however, I posted a direct reply (bad example, but still) to your earlier statement that a crafting system with no dilithium input = bad enough items that nobody would want from crafting.
Then you inadvertently highlight the point that it's quite possible to get comparable gear (your example of fluid dynamics antiproton reward - repeatable) for zero dilithium cost yet a semi-decent (6-8 runs of the mission) time investment only. Chasered with a 20k dil "spin" of the die = too steep of a cost to gamble...
That's why many of us are calling for the elimination of Dil costs from crafting. Either that, or a massive uptake in Dil earnings to "offset" the costs involved... I know in the announcement thread I've been taking more the second course - more Dil and count on some reduction as considered by Hawk already...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
If you get rid of all the things you click on in a crafting system you can have 4 kinds.
Mostly junk in - Mostly junk out
Mostly junk in - Mostly good out
Mostly good in - Mostly good out
Mostly good in - Mostly junk out
*Junk in equals cheap in game drops and EC, good in is Dilithium
*Junk out is VR Mk XII gear with mods I dont want, good out is VR Mk XII gear with mods I do want.
Guess which one you guys have mostly good in - mostly junk out. So a little math, lets say I level to max without using Dilithium and I finally want to make 4 Beam arrays that are all Accx3. Now I am guessing but lets say I have a 50% chance to get a VR array. With the 4 mods we have there are 20 combinations. So I will have to make 40 weapons on average to get the one I want, but wait I want 4 so 160 TIMES! Or 3,200,000 Dilithium!!!! Thats 400 days of hitting the 8000 cap to grind in game or over $200 at an exchange rate of 150 Dilithium per one Zen.
You guys screwed up and now the forums are pissed and they should be. Just like my boss gets mad at me when I make a mistake.
You can fix it one of two different ways.
The easy way junk in junk out or drop the dilithium cost completely.
The better way good in good out keep the dilithium cost(maybe a little less) and let people pick their mods. Just let people pick the order mods are applied so if they are trying to make a Accx2 and CrtH they can have the CrtH go first (so if they only get a green they know it will be CrtH) or they can have CrtH go last and they know if they get a Blue it will be Accx2.
I know it sounds crazy but I think people are a lot happier almost getting what they want then not even close. Just think about when people buy lottery tickets I have heard people say I was only one number off they were happier even though they could have been a million off and the outcome was the same.
Extra bonus, make it so people can break down current weapons for a chance to get the mods. That way the old vender trash will have more value and new players can sell more drops early in game, make more EC and try more kinds of ship build. That will make them more invested in the game and more will to spend real money.
Well thats my 2 cents. And here is an extra penny keep it the way it is and I sadly will have no need for it.
also if somebody already said all this sorry I didn't read all the post before mine.
1: Dilithium requirements are horrid and, like the old system, I will not be using it if it has a dilithium requirement. The dilithium timesink mechanic in this game is disgusting. I have NO words for how much it sickens me. I already bought the lifetime sub, people who are playing F2P are going to do so regardless, people playing monthly subs will continue to do so. (and for the record I completely support and respect all 3 choices) We're not stupid, we don't need a carrot on a stick like dilithium to trick us into playing. I would bet money that more people have quit over stupid timesinks than get roped in long term by them.... But I digress.
2: I dump 20k dilithium to get a RANDOM reward? This is a joke, right? Whoever dreamed this (and like Dr. Sheldon Cooper I reserve this term for only when it truly applies) "malarkey" up should be publicly shamed. Why in the UNIVERSE would I waste that much time on a random reward?
I love it when game developers waste hundreds if not thousands of man hours concocting up complex systems that NO players utilize. My humble suggestion is to preplan the inevitable 2016 revamp to the useless crafting system that nobody uses that you are developing now to save yourself some time. Just forecast what this useless steaming pile of refuse will be like in 2 years, wipe the slate clean and start over. I swear on all that is holy nobody will argue if you guys scrap the whole thing and postpone it by 4 months. We'd rather get nothing than... well... engineered, advertized and hyped up nothing.
Again, I'm not trying to flame but this really is how myself and many others feel. Please take the suggestion and work on this longer to make it better. We'll all benefit for it. Thank you.
*edit*
3: Why duty officers? that's another system that should have died before it could gestate. I realize that (for some dumbfoundingly unimaginable reason) I am in the minority on this one, but I LOATHE the duty officer system. Up until now it has remained mostly optional, but if I must play spreadsheet roster online 9000 to craft, no thank you.
pass i'll save my resources for fleet gear. if it was just a dill cost to "get it now" and end the project early fine but to also get the components and then also a cost to end it early uhh no.
system Lord Baal is dead
Material Conversion Store
- Needs a mass convert function
- Perhaps when mousing over 'Common/ Uncommon/Random Crafting Materials' a list of the items gained through conversion should pop up. It should also list the average yield of each item gained.
R & D Duty Officer Tab
- Items such as Focusing Lens, Isolinear Circuitry and EPS Conduits are shared across multiple Research Schools but fundamentally are the same. It would be preferable for universal items to be put into a single research school while more specialised items remain in each respective school.
- Perhaps a mild colour scheme to distinguish between basic crafted components, rarer components, ground items and space items in the menus?
- A cost list is shown when creating an item; the icons should show how many units of an item already exist. Clicking on an icon should also link to the relevant page for crafting more of that component.
For more feedback I'd need something specific to focus upon, otherwise I'll wait and see what further developments are made in the coming month/s.
It's not what is done or said but why.
Words and actions may be judged, but motives?
Motives are truth to a believer