There really needs to be a purple Doff for those of us who have maxed crafting, that either reduces crafting time, reduces input materials, or gives bonus XP or crit chance.
Also, there needs to be some balancing in the amount of materials that come from particle traces and the higher-tier materials. And some way to upconvert.
Havent tested yet at all but from what i'm reading:
1. Slider is probably a good idea
2. Dilithium has to go.I know entire fleets that wont be using this system if it has dilithium.We'll just buy all from fleet stores then.
3.14 steps to craft something, that's about half too many.
4. New system has to offer everything that old system did (Aegis etc.), plus whatever new items has been released (kits, modules).
It's probably more complicated than their typical slider would be, since each item converted returns a random item. Each sample that will give a common, will give a random of the four commons. It wouldn't just be a convert 5000 of X into 5000 of Y, it's converting 5000 of X into 5000 of Y1, Y2, Y3, Y4 randomly.
But unless they okay folks running some sort of macro program (ahem) to go through and do the conversions, yeah - they do need to take a look at some sort of quickie QoL conversion thing. It's something that might not really be required down the road - but yeah, it's definitely something that's going to be needed for folks when it goes live.
Think they underestimated just how much of those samples folks have saved up. Then again, what kind of amounts are folks complaining about? Are folks complaining about converting 100? 1000? 10000?
Me? I'm looking at needing to convert over 30k of the wee buggers...meh.
2. Dilithium has to go.I know entire fleets that wont be using this system if it has dilithium.We'll just buy all from fleet stores then.
If Dilithium goes, then the gear will be of no value...and nobody would bother, since it's so easy to get better gear. Folks might slow grind it out for the Traits and ignore it otherwise.
This is an opportunity to provide an alternative means for folks to get gear they want. Course, it definitely means addressing all the RNG aspects of it...cause in the current state, gambling and getting a Mk XII Green with a [Dmg] mod on a weapon after dropping 20k Dil - yeah, I'd expect the forums to go up in flames!
3.14 steps to craft something, that's about half too many.
I'm surprised they didn't count walking into the room, sitting at the chair, turning on the computer, turning on the monitor, logging into the computer, etc, etc, etc in their collection of steps.
One of the big hopes with the new system was that it would allow us to select the modifiers we want on the equipment. In it's current form the random quality combined with the random modifiers applied to the equipment make the new crafting system no more attractive than a random equipment box. Possibly because that's exactly what it is. Oh, the table is narrower in focus, but it's still random.
Please look at modifying this to, in some way, allow us to select which mods we would like for a piece of equipment - perhaps giving us a drop down list for preferred mods with a priority attached to each box.
One of the big hopes with the new system was that it would allow us to select the modifiers we want on the equipment. In it's current form the random quality combined with the random modifiers applied to the equipment make the new crafting system no more attractive than a random equipment box. Possibly because that's exactly what it is. Oh, the table is narrower in focus, but it's still random.
Please look at modifying this to, in some way, allow us to select which mods we would like for a piece of equipment - perhaps giving us a drop down list for preferred mods with a priority attached to each box.
Heck, it's worse than a random equipment box...cause at least you're looking at some limitations to the RNG with those. With the new R&D...meh, it's just epic /facepalm what they're doing there...
The Random system they is in use for the R and D system that is new is a really bad idea. I think what needs be done is the components you add will and put into a device determines what you get let say you want your beam array have dmg=x3, then you would need lets say 3 focus lenses to focus more of the beam onto the target there for making it do more damage, or let say you want it to be dmgx2 and acc then again 2 focus lenses and isoliner chips for precossing. Soemthing along those lines. Sam be for example armor, you want neutrnium armor then you nwould need put in neutronium sample the ore you add layer wise the better it is more layers equals more asobtion of what it does so layers would count the rarer the more layers. Something along lines let the player choose what he gets by making it on what he puts in. Not randomness that will just kill the R and D system from doable to no way aint gonna try.
It's kind of funny, but it looks like that's what they might have been thinking...but then somebody pointed out one of the many hateful posts out there, and they decided to say TRIBBLE it and went all random on us instead...meh.
Suggestion: Put Dominion Nanoenergy Cells in the ground weapons school. This would give people an incentive to buy and use the Jem'hadar set and weapons.
Very Yes. To repeat an opinion I've shared elsewhere: consumable items like these have no business being in the Lobi store. Give the players their recipes from sensible places - for example, the nanoenergy cell recipes should be a guaranteed reward from 'Boldly They Rode'; the rad crystals and web grenades should become available for manufacture once you hit a certain point in the Nukara rep.
Also as noted elsewhere (and raised here by canis36)... why not apply the ship/console (and now kit/module) logic to weapons and their mods?
Some of the folks are being overly melodramatic and hysterical...best bet is to take a look yourself to see how you feel about things.
If Dilithium goes, then the gear will be of no value...and nobody would bother, since it's so easy to get better gear. Folks might slow grind it out for the Traits and ignore it otherwise.
You being melodramatic any perchance?
The abilities and value of gear is in no way tied to how much dilithium you paid into it. Take a Mk XI blue phaser beam array - is it any different whether you get it through crafting (with Dil cost), straight from a Dil store, or as a (lucky) drop from "create experimental/prototype beam array"?
However, the amount of time it takes to get the array is different with all three methods. Store is obvious, walk up, click, have. Crafting takes a little longer, in that you have to acquire (theoretically via doing it yourself) the samples, traces, extra traces to craft the schematic, and the time it took to get all these supplies earlier so that you have a high enough level to craft Mk XI in the first place. DOffing it can be quick (first run), or extremely long (weeks / months of rolling for it on the loot tables)...
See, investing actual time can be a means to "pay" for a product instead of needing a time-gated currency. And, with the amounts of time this new crafting system proposes to require, well, I (along with many others) see no reason why we need to invest both hours and hours of actual player-time and piles of dilithium (which, at least right now, we're not gonna get if we're out getting samples, etc.). One of the things that's "killing" the current crafting system is that the combined time/dilithium costs of a crafted Mk XI is higher than the Dil store...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I'm sorry but I find this system to be a major disapointment much like the new rep trait system. This is essentialy the same system as before but now requires doffs. However I'm not one to complain without offering solutions.
1. Allow us to pick the modifiers to the items we are crafting. Be it ACC x3 CRTH or a hybrid item that does diruptor, plasma, tet, ACC.
2. Allow the crafting of universal consules.
3. As far as the rep traits go make it a universal 8 like our character traits are. If we want to run 6 space and only 2 ground traits let us.
The abilities and value of gear is in no way tied to how much dilithium you paid into it. Take a Mk XI blue phaser beam array - is it any different whether you get it through crafting (with Dil cost), straight from a Dil store, or as a (lucky) drop from "create experimental/prototype beam array"?
What kind of Rare Mk XI Phaser Array?
First issue would be that the Mk XI Phaser Array from the Dil Store is Very Rare. The price of that array is going to vary, in of itself, depending on if the player is in a fleet - and - if they are in a fleet, what tier their Dilithium mine is.
I'm in a fleet with just a T1 Mine, so it's a minimal discount - just 4%. So looking at the Dil store, I see there are two VR Mk XI Phaser Beam Arrays available for 21716 Dil.
The mods available on those two are:
[Acc][CrtD][Dmg]
[CrtD]x2[Dmg]
You know, Phaser probably wasn't the best choice. Cause there's some fun to be had looking at Antiproton, am I right?
Same price because of the discount, but with the following mod choices:
[Acc][CrtH][Dmg]
[CrtD]x2[Dmg]
Course, if you wanted one with [CrtH][Dmg]x2 instead...you could pick it up for 15230 Dil (+resources) by crafting it in the current system.
So here's the kicker...Fluid Dynamics. Yep, the mission Fluid Dynamics provides VR Mk XI [Acc][CrtH][Dmg] AP Beam Arrays as a mission reward. So an Array that would cost somebody not in a fleet (or in a fleet without a Dil discount) 22620 Dil...is a free reward for somebody running Fluid Dynamics. You can run it over and over and over - get as many as you want!
But if you wanted [Acc]x3 or [CrtH]x3...you'd be SOL. If you wanted Phaser, Tetryon, Plasma, Polaron, or Disruptor...you'd be SOL.
Now where the proposed system fails is in dropping out 5k Dil for what you'd hope to get...could get you Very Rare, Rare, Uncommon, or even Common if your skill is low...as well as ending up with random mods. That's just not the kind of gambling folks are going to do, right? Cause you could easily end up dropping 5k Dil for vendor trash.
Even if we could pick the mods, folks think that 5k Dil would be too much, right?
Let's move on to the 20k Dil and Mk XII, k? With the RNG system in place..."oh hell no!"...is pretty much the answer. Not sure what they're thinking there. You're guaranteed a Mk XII Green with some random mod...if they think that's worth 20k Dil...er...yeah...no.
But even if we could pick the mods and had a VR Mk XII there...folks think there shouldn't be Dil involved, eh?
What would that mean for other Dil based weapons? Reputation and Fleet? Heck, what would that mean for real cash based weapons? Lock Box and Lobi?
And that's where if you're going to do something comparable to those items - near them - then they need to have a comparable price, no? Otherwise the others will be avoided in favor of the cheaper, no? Well, DPS and PvP folks might go more expensive...but in general?
So if you don't make them comparable, but make them cheaper through some other means - how less comparable do they end up being? To the point that...nobody bothers?
They need to have value for folks to bother...without ruining the value of other items.
However, the amount of time it takes to get the array is different with all three methods. Store is obvious, walk up, click, have. Crafting takes a little longer, in that you have to acquire (theoretically via doing it yourself) the samples, traces, extra traces to craft the schematic, and the time it took to get all these supplies earlier so that you have a high enough level to craft Mk XI in the first place. DOffing it can be quick (first run), or extremely long (weeks / months of rolling for it on the loot tables)...
Which is where they've gone with a reduced Dil cost, taking into account the investment to get to the point to be able to craft the item...
See, investing actual time can be a means to "pay" for a product instead of needing a time-gated currency. And, with the amounts of time this new crafting system proposes to require, well, I (along with many others) see no reason why we need to invest both hours and hours of actual player-time and piles of dilithium (which, at least right now, we're not gonna get if we're out getting samples, etc.). One of the things that's "killing" the current crafting system is that the combined time/dilithium costs of a crafted Mk XI is higher than the Dil store...
Yes, that's the current system. It's part of why it's dead. It's where they've removed Dil costs for Mk X and lower. It's where a Mk XI is 5k instead of 7 to 30k+ Dil. It's where a Mk XII that didn't exist is 20k, where a Mk XI could have been 30k+.
Time isn't effort...effort is effort. Waiting isn't effort...
Don't get me wrong, I think a 20k Dil pseudo Lock Box to get random rarity/mods is stupid. That's 129 ZEN. I'd rather buy a Key. If nothing else, I'd eventually have the Lobi to buy a ship to sell to buy Lock Box weapons I want off the Exchange.
20k Dil is ridiculous for that kind of RNG. If I could pick the mods...well then, I'm looking at a cheaper alternative to some other stuff out there for alts and the like where I don't care - while I'm still looking at better stuff for other guys.
Guys you will want to look at the thread and screenshot I posted in this forum. Things are NOT ok with this system. I'm not a doomsayer, some of you know that, but this is BAD.
Annoyed and frustrated would be more likely...
<snip thought out yet somehow irrelevant fluff>
Perhaps it's your frustration showing, however, I posted a direct reply (bad example, but still) to your earlier statement that a crafting system with no dilithium input = bad enough items that nobody would want from crafting.
Then you inadvertently highlight the point that it's quite possible to get comparable gear (your example of fluid dynamics antiproton reward - repeatable) for zero dilithium cost yet a semi-decent (6-8 runs of the mission) time investment only. Chasered with a 20k dil "spin" of the die = too steep of a cost to gamble...
That's why many of us are calling for the elimination of Dil costs from crafting. Either that, or a massive uptake in Dil earnings to "offset" the costs involved... I know in the announcement thread I've been taking more the second course - more Dil and count on some reduction as considered by Hawk already...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I havent been able to test it yet but I can say I am very disappointed in what I have read.
If you get rid of all the things you click on in a crafting system you can have 4 kinds.
Mostly junk in - Mostly junk out
Mostly junk in - Mostly good out
Mostly good in - Mostly good out
Mostly good in - Mostly junk out
*Junk in equals cheap in game drops and EC, good in is Dilithium
*Junk out is VR Mk XII gear with mods I dont want, good out is VR Mk XII gear with mods I do want.
Guess which one you guys have mostly good in - mostly junk out. So a little math, lets say I level to max without using Dilithium and I finally want to make 4 Beam arrays that are all Accx3. Now I am guessing but lets say I have a 50% chance to get a VR array. With the 4 mods we have there are 20 combinations. So I will have to make 40 weapons on average to get the one I want, but wait I want 4 so 160 TIMES! Or 3,200,000 Dilithium!!!! Thats 400 days of hitting the 8000 cap to grind in game or over $200 at an exchange rate of 150 Dilithium per one Zen.
You guys screwed up and now the forums are pissed and they should be. Just like my boss gets mad at me when I make a mistake.
You can fix it one of two different ways.
The easy way junk in junk out or drop the dilithium cost completely.
The better way good in good out keep the dilithium cost(maybe a little less) and let people pick their mods. Just let people pick the order mods are applied so if they are trying to make a Accx2 and CrtH they can have the CrtH go first (so if they only get a green they know it will be CrtH) or they can have CrtH go last and they know if they get a Blue it will be Accx2.
I know it sounds crazy but I think people are a lot happier almost getting what they want then not even close. Just think about when people buy lottery tickets I have heard people say I was only one number off they were happier even though they could have been a million off and the outcome was the same.
Extra bonus, make it so people can break down current weapons for a chance to get the mods. That way the old vender trash will have more value and new players can sell more drops early in game, make more EC and try more kinds of ship build. That will make them more invested in the game and more will to spend real money.
Well thats my 2 cents. And here is an extra penny keep it the way it is and I sadly will have no need for it.
also if somebody already said all this sorry I didn't read all the post before mine.
I really hate to sound negative but I have to chime in.
1: Dilithium requirements are horrid and, like the old system, I will not be using it if it has a dilithium requirement. The dilithium timesink mechanic in this game is disgusting. I have NO words for how much it sickens me. I already bought the lifetime sub, people who are playing F2P are going to do so regardless, people playing monthly subs will continue to do so. (and for the record I completely support and respect all 3 choices) We're not stupid, we don't need a carrot on a stick like dilithium to trick us into playing. I would bet money that more people have quit over stupid timesinks than get roped in long term by them.... But I digress.
2: I dump 20k dilithium to get a RANDOM reward? This is a joke, right? Whoever dreamed this (and like Dr. Sheldon Cooper I reserve this term for only when it truly applies) "malarkey" up should be publicly shamed. Why in the UNIVERSE would I waste that much time on a random reward?
I love it when game developers waste hundreds if not thousands of man hours concocting up complex systems that NO players utilize. My humble suggestion is to preplan the inevitable 2016 revamp to the useless crafting system that nobody uses that you are developing now to save yourself some time. Just forecast what this useless steaming pile of refuse will be like in 2 years, wipe the slate clean and start over. I swear on all that is holy nobody will argue if you guys scrap the whole thing and postpone it by 4 months. We'd rather get nothing than... well... engineered, advertized and hyped up nothing.
Again, I'm not trying to flame but this really is how myself and many others feel. Please take the suggestion and work on this longer to make it better. We'll all benefit for it. Thank you.
*edit*
3: Why duty officers? that's another system that should have died before it could gestate. I realize that (for some dumbfoundingly unimaginable reason) I am in the minority on this one, but I LOATHE the duty officer system. Up until now it has remained mostly optional, but if I must play spreadsheet roster online 9000 to craft, no thank you.
I agree with you. This game would be so much better without duty officers. All they are is a worthless cash dump and a way for exploiters to exploit. Tech doffs are the real power creep.
20,000 dill for mkxii with random mods i can not choose?
pass i'll save my resources for fleet gear. if it was just a dill cost to "get it now" and end the project early fine but to also get the components and then also a cost to end it early uhh no.
- Perhaps when mousing over 'Common/ Uncommon/Random Crafting Materials' a list of the items gained through conversion should pop up. It should also list the average yield of each item gained.
R & D Duty Officer Tab
- Items such as Focusing Lens, Isolinear Circuitry and EPS Conduits are shared across multiple Research Schools but fundamentally are the same. It would be preferable for universal items to be put into a single research school while more specialised items remain in each respective school.
- Perhaps a mild colour scheme to distinguish between basic crafted components, rarer components, ground items and space items in the menus?
- A cost list is shown when creating an item; the icons should show how many units of an item already exist. Clicking on an icon should also link to the relevant page for crafting more of that component.
For more feedback I'd need something specific to focus upon, otherwise I'll wait and see what further developments are made in the coming month/s.
sig.
It's not what is done or said but why.
Words and actions may be judged, but motives?
What would be nice is if the devs had a forum asking the:( player base about what they wanted in the game and how things should be improved. Much like Bioware did in the Mass Effect games.
The number of crafting resources is a little much. I think this all should have been a little more simplistic.
we have something like 4 gases per rarity and there are tons of components. would it have been so hard to limit that down to one gas per rarity, and just come up with some universal sounding name like crafting component or something and limit those to one each? its like seeing an item needs 7 components and trying to remember all the names and which field they are produced in is going to get annoying.
most of the components only offer 1 xp so they did not need to be scattered all over the different fields. they could have been put into one nice and easy field on its own. leave the actual weapons and consoles in the respective field so that its dead obvious what you need.
I dont like the dilithium cost for a random reward. the dilithium should be used as a guarantee to get the item type you want. if you spend none, you get a common, spend the full amount you get a very rare etc.
if you want a random element to be able to sell catalysts in the store then have an extra random bonus unique to crafting to give those weapons an attractive boost on a RNG. that way at worst you get a good item that is highly competitive with everything else, and at best, after you spent some money you get a little extra.
Trait: On activating Beam skill, gain 2% Beam damage for 20 sec. Stacks x3.
Cannons:
Trait: On activating Cannon skill, gain +1 Turn Rate, +1 Inertia for 20 sec. Stacks x3.
Here's a silly question. How can either of these stack three times when the global cooldown is at best 15 seconds? At most they will be able to stack twice and then for only 5 seconds.
Also, would it not be better if they were swapped around? That way the Cannon trait gains 2% damage for 20 sec and the Beam trait gains the +1 Turn Rate and + 1 Inertia. This is based on the line of thought that slow moving Cruisers spamming FAW not gaining more over the top damage, but a slight increase to Turn and Inertia that would allow the Cruiser pilots who like to use torps to be a little more effective in using them.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
If they want to add the randomness in have it be at a significantly reduced cost and your basically gambling with your combine...
Then have a more expensive (Yet hopefully reasonable) Cost to make specific items when you can determine at least some of the factors (Like 3 out of 4?) if not all of them...
what Would Be Nice Is If The Devs Had A Forum Asking The:( Player Base About What They Wanted In The Game And How Things Should Be Improved. Much Like Bioware Did In The Mass Effect Games.
Question (and maybe this has been answered) but what happens to your existing crafting levels? Will anything you did there move over like when Diplomacy was its over Commendiation section?
I posted this elsewhere, but it really needs to be here:
It appears that our dedicated crafters will be reset to zero experience. This means having to make, and destroy many items before we can craft something useful.... again. So great cost and lots of time will be needed to regain what we had achieved earlier.
Crafting will be duty officer driven. Not having the right duty officers will be a serious impediment. This is yet another layer of cost and time over our heads. Then items will cost TONS of dilithium in spite of everything else. The most lame and useless gear has a dilithium cost now. I don't want to spend ANY dilithium to make trash! And lawd knows I will make piles and piles of trash before I can make anything of value.
Since you're making crafting a duty officer mission, that means I might lose everything that's invested into making a piece of high level/ high resource gear... even dilithium! No way!
Honestly, this looks to be an activity where the players lose big, and I am not sure if Cryptic will win either.
I been waiting for this from day one. First I have some very mixed feelings about this new system. Mostly because i spent 3 hours looking for this new system and ive been playing for a long time (almost every day for 2 years). To find out then i had to change over 6000 data thingys one by one didn't impress me either. So after several ours of this. i have some notes.
Good first as its the only one.
Good 1. Type.
Being able now to choice any type not just phaser or disruptors from day one. and i am glad to see Antiprotons there. that would be kick TRIBBLE in lower levels.
Bad. 1. Set up.
When i saw the new interface my heart fell to the floor. Its no only a mess but very hard to find your duty officers or see clearly which duty officer does what. The question i have whats wrong with the old pie chart? And where are all those all headings for type like "Diplomacy" or "Science". Are you trying to kill the game for new players and overwhelm them make them quit or have a heart-attack?
2. Changing items into other things then make the thing you want.... maybe.
This is a mess its not clear and and its better then the old system. I thought the idea was to cut down on so much items?
3. Cost.
The Dil is not worth it. At least with the old system even thought you couldn't choice the effects the item had you at least knew it was a blue or purple item (sometimes green went starting out). But You have WHITE items as a reward for all the time and energy you put in to this system? Why dont you just slap me a few times while your at it!
Dil a side the fact you have no control is just insulting. for some purple beams weapons took me 17 goes and that was just the not cost alot gear (or dil). and mostly white and green gear and took even more to get other console items but i deleted those as i need room.
Too sum up. I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED. The old system may had its floors but it did make you feel that ever step was worth it and you never got junk (and if you did you could give to new players or what ever. But white gear should NEVER be part of a crafting system unless its parts to make the better gear. It also was half of the dil store costs and a simple interface which was easy to understand with less parts then what this new system has. You could make versions of the same gear without using Dil at least till end game items and had no time you had to wait but that of the making the item which was 5 secs.
I have to agree with my predacessor here. I like the concept behind the new crafting system, make component and then build an item. I dont like the chance randomness. and whites as a reward? that is truely insulting. Not to mention the grind of the new system. Im at level 3 beams and nothing new to make unlocks, just same old stuff. Thatsays grind fest, in 7 different areas. Cryptic...How the HELL did you you think This was better?! I'd be fine with crafting whites as long as there are ways to use that white to make it a blue or purple later on. So far as I see Lots of grind vs. TRIBBLE reward.
Also as an insult it is no longer crafting in your hands its using doff's. Some people dont like the doff system but liked to craft, so now their screwed. It was a bad idea to tie these two systems together. Also take the dilithium component away from crafting. Thats what killed it in the first place.
After spending some time on Tribble playing around with the new system my original excitement over a crafting revamp has compltely vanished, to be replaced with massive disappointment because of the following issues:
1. While it is GOOD that we can trade in our old materials for new ones, it is NOT good that we are forced to do it one at a time. It would be nice if there were a "trade all" option added for each type, or at the very least a slider up to 100 like we have for buying commodities.
2. Total randomness for what rarity an item is. This isn't so bad for crafting a bunch of low level gear for alts or friends who are just starting when it's only going to be used for probably a day at most, but when you want to make MK XII stuff for endgame use it is horrible. Especially when dilithium cost is thrown into the mix, and even moreso for weapons when the mods are totally random too. I could see the current dilithium costs MAYBE working out if we were able to choose what mods go onto weapons, but having to pay that much when you'll most likely get something with mods you do not want just makes it not worth it. I would much rather spend time grinding fleet marks and buying some elite fleet gear, and if it stays this way I can say with a fair amount of confidence that the crafting revamp is going to be very ill received.
3. Mat overload. Moreso when you have to use mats to craft other mats, this is fine for veteran crafters who have done this song and dance before in other games but may scare away newer players. But what really bugs me is dilithium cost attached to certain mats. THAT is not cool.
That being said there are some things I do like:
1. Doff based crafting system. Call me crazy but I actually like that it's assignment based and not something you have to stand around a console doing, now we'll be able to do it from anywhere at any time.
2. Bonuses for doffs tied to rarity and not specific stats. This is good because it won't cause hyperinflation of prices for certain doffs which would be virtually required while leaving the rest as mostly worthless.
My suggestions to improve it:
1. Tie rarity into crafting level, don't make it random. The higher your crafting level in a specific area the rarer the stuff you'll be able to make from that specific area.
2. Get rid of dil costs for purple mats and weapons with random rarity/mods. We already have too much to spend dil on as it is.
3. Add in the ability to force rarity, and the ability to force certain mods onto weapons for a dilithium fee. Being able to craft a MK XII ultra rare space weapon with Accx3 and CritX? I'd spend 100k dil for that and I know for sure many other people would too.
Just to reiterate and expand upon what I've previously said, and so many others have also said: The random nature of crafted gear is a major turn-off, maybe moreseo than the high-level dilithium costs.
In crafting, the tradeoff for time and resources spent has traditionally been gear that may or may not be slightly better than dropped gear of the same level and quality, but that always known stats. Crafting is an investment where a player knows that if he takes the time and effort to acquire X items and spends Y time engaged in the crafting process and away from other gameplay, the end result will be Desired Item Z. If I personally had to choose between probably going through the entire crafting process multiple times to get a particular piece of equipment, hoping it drops during gameplay (if it can drop), or just purchasing it outright, I'd likely choose the latter two -- even if the purchasing cost is higher than the stated crafting cost.
Why is this? For starters, it's very likely that needing to re-craft items will drive the overall crafting costs higher than the purchase cost, thereby making outright purchase the more desirable option. Also, because I'd actually be purchasing the item I wanted, and not purchasing a dice roll to potentially get the item I wanted. Now, there's nothing wrong with purchasing dice rolls, IMO. I see nothing wrong with lockboxes, for example. But even in the case of lockboxes, the truly desirable and valuable items are concrete in nature; you know what you're gambling for when you choose to gamble. Under the new crafting system as it currently stands, you're playing Wheel of Fish.
Given that the new crafting system is actually rather quite robust, there are two potential solutions for the issue of gear randomness. The first solution is a simple drop-down menu of gear from which we can choose to craft, similar to the old crafting system, and nearly every other MMO crafting system in existence. Or - and I'm not sure about the feasibility of doing this within the window before 9.5's launch (if at all), but it bears discussion - the addition of (craftable?) modifier traits which can then be added to crafted gear. To make crafted items more desirable, perhaps there could be extra modifier "slots" on crafted gear, or modifier combinations could be allowed that aren't normally allowed on dropped or bought gear -- things like [ACC]x3, for example. Modifier traits could have a built-in chance to not "stick" if artificially lengthening the time and resource sinks is an intentional part of the system design. Heck, even just being able to select modifiers from a menu would go fantastic lengths to add player agency to the process, and would help in justifying crafting costs at higher levels. And both of those would go a long way toward making the new crafting system something in which more players would want to participate.
Comments
Also, there needs to be some balancing in the amount of materials that come from particle traces and the higher-tier materials. And some way to upconvert.
1. Slider is probably a good idea
2. Dilithium has to go.I know entire fleets that wont be using this system if it has dilithium.We'll just buy all from fleet stores then.
3.14 steps to craft something, that's about half too many.
4. New system has to offer everything that old system did (Aegis etc.), plus whatever new items has been released (kits, modules).
Some of the folks are being overly melodramatic and hysterical...best bet is to take a look yourself to see how you feel about things.
It's probably more complicated than their typical slider would be, since each item converted returns a random item. Each sample that will give a common, will give a random of the four commons. It wouldn't just be a convert 5000 of X into 5000 of Y, it's converting 5000 of X into 5000 of Y1, Y2, Y3, Y4 randomly.
But unless they okay folks running some sort of macro program (ahem) to go through and do the conversions, yeah - they do need to take a look at some sort of quickie QoL conversion thing. It's something that might not really be required down the road - but yeah, it's definitely something that's going to be needed for folks when it goes live.
Think they underestimated just how much of those samples folks have saved up. Then again, what kind of amounts are folks complaining about? Are folks complaining about converting 100? 1000? 10000?
Me? I'm looking at needing to convert over 30k of the wee buggers...meh.
If Dilithium goes, then the gear will be of no value...and nobody would bother, since it's so easy to get better gear. Folks might slow grind it out for the Traits and ignore it otherwise.
This is an opportunity to provide an alternative means for folks to get gear they want. Course, it definitely means addressing all the RNG aspects of it...cause in the current state, gambling and getting a Mk XII Green with a [Dmg] mod on a weapon after dropping 20k Dil - yeah, I'd expect the forums to go up in flames!
I'm surprised they didn't count walking into the room, sitting at the chair, turning on the computer, turning on the monitor, logging into the computer, etc, etc, etc in their collection of steps.
Hrmm, will have to see where everything goes with that...
Please look at modifying this to, in some way, allow us to select which mods we would like for a piece of equipment - perhaps giving us a drop down list for preferred mods with a priority attached to each box.
Heck, it's worse than a random equipment box...cause at least you're looking at some limitations to the RNG with those. With the new R&D...meh, it's just epic /facepalm what they're doing there...
It's kind of funny, but it looks like that's what they might have been thinking...but then somebody pointed out one of the many hateful posts out there, and they decided to say TRIBBLE it and went all random on us instead...meh.
Very Yes. To repeat an opinion I've shared elsewhere: consumable items like these have no business being in the Lobi store. Give the players their recipes from sensible places - for example, the nanoenergy cell recipes should be a guaranteed reward from 'Boldly They Rode'; the rad crystals and web grenades should become available for manufacture once you hit a certain point in the Nukara rep.
Also as noted elsewhere (and raised here by canis36)... why not apply the ship/console (and now kit/module) logic to weapons and their mods?
You being melodramatic any perchance?
The abilities and value of gear is in no way tied to how much dilithium you paid into it. Take a Mk XI blue phaser beam array - is it any different whether you get it through crafting (with Dil cost), straight from a Dil store, or as a (lucky) drop from "create experimental/prototype beam array"?
However, the amount of time it takes to get the array is different with all three methods. Store is obvious, walk up, click, have. Crafting takes a little longer, in that you have to acquire (theoretically via doing it yourself) the samples, traces, extra traces to craft the schematic, and the time it took to get all these supplies earlier so that you have a high enough level to craft Mk XI in the first place. DOffing it can be quick (first run), or extremely long (weeks / months of rolling for it on the loot tables)...
See, investing actual time can be a means to "pay" for a product instead of needing a time-gated currency. And, with the amounts of time this new crafting system proposes to require, well, I (along with many others) see no reason why we need to invest both hours and hours of actual player-time and piles of dilithium (which, at least right now, we're not gonna get if we're out getting samples, etc.). One of the things that's "killing" the current crafting system is that the combined time/dilithium costs of a crafted Mk XI is higher than the Dil store...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
1. Allow us to pick the modifiers to the items we are crafting. Be it ACC x3 CRTH or a hybrid item that does diruptor, plasma, tet, ACC.
2. Allow the crafting of universal consules.
3. As far as the rep traits go make it a universal 8 like our character traits are. If we want to run 6 space and only 2 ground traits let us.
Annoyed and frustrated would be more likely...
What kind of Rare Mk XI Phaser Array?
First issue would be that the Mk XI Phaser Array from the Dil Store is Very Rare. The price of that array is going to vary, in of itself, depending on if the player is in a fleet - and - if they are in a fleet, what tier their Dilithium mine is.
I'm in a fleet with just a T1 Mine, so it's a minimal discount - just 4%. So looking at the Dil store, I see there are two VR Mk XI Phaser Beam Arrays available for 21716 Dil.
The mods available on those two are:
[Acc][CrtD][Dmg]
[CrtD]x2[Dmg]
You know, Phaser probably wasn't the best choice. Cause there's some fun to be had looking at Antiproton, am I right?
Same price because of the discount, but with the following mod choices:
[Acc][CrtH][Dmg]
[CrtD]x2[Dmg]
Course, if you wanted one with [CrtH][Dmg]x2 instead...you could pick it up for 15230 Dil (+resources) by crafting it in the current system.
So here's the kicker...Fluid Dynamics. Yep, the mission Fluid Dynamics provides VR Mk XI [Acc][CrtH][Dmg] AP Beam Arrays as a mission reward. So an Array that would cost somebody not in a fleet (or in a fleet without a Dil discount) 22620 Dil...is a free reward for somebody running Fluid Dynamics. You can run it over and over and over - get as many as you want!
But if you wanted [Acc]x3 or [CrtH]x3...you'd be SOL. If you wanted Phaser, Tetryon, Plasma, Polaron, or Disruptor...you'd be SOL.
Now where the proposed system fails is in dropping out 5k Dil for what you'd hope to get...could get you Very Rare, Rare, Uncommon, or even Common if your skill is low...as well as ending up with random mods. That's just not the kind of gambling folks are going to do, right? Cause you could easily end up dropping 5k Dil for vendor trash.
Even if we could pick the mods, folks think that 5k Dil would be too much, right?
Let's move on to the 20k Dil and Mk XII, k? With the RNG system in place..."oh hell no!"...is pretty much the answer. Not sure what they're thinking there. You're guaranteed a Mk XII Green with some random mod...if they think that's worth 20k Dil...er...yeah...no.
But even if we could pick the mods and had a VR Mk XII there...folks think there shouldn't be Dil involved, eh?
What would that mean for other Dil based weapons? Reputation and Fleet? Heck, what would that mean for real cash based weapons? Lock Box and Lobi?
And that's where if you're going to do something comparable to those items - near them - then they need to have a comparable price, no? Otherwise the others will be avoided in favor of the cheaper, no? Well, DPS and PvP folks might go more expensive...but in general?
So if you don't make them comparable, but make them cheaper through some other means - how less comparable do they end up being? To the point that...nobody bothers?
They need to have value for folks to bother...without ruining the value of other items.
It's pretty straightforward...pretty simple.
Which is where they've gone with a reduced Dil cost, taking into account the investment to get to the point to be able to craft the item...
Yes, that's the current system. It's part of why it's dead. It's where they've removed Dil costs for Mk X and lower. It's where a Mk XI is 5k instead of 7 to 30k+ Dil. It's where a Mk XII that didn't exist is 20k, where a Mk XI could have been 30k+.
Time isn't effort...effort is effort. Waiting isn't effort...
Don't get me wrong, I think a 20k Dil pseudo Lock Box to get random rarity/mods is stupid. That's 129 ZEN. I'd rather buy a Key. If nothing else, I'd eventually have the Lobi to buy a ship to sell to buy Lock Box weapons I want off the Exchange.
20k Dil is ridiculous for that kind of RNG. If I could pick the mods...well then, I'm looking at a cheaper alternative to some other stuff out there for alts and the like where I don't care - while I'm still looking at better stuff for other guys.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1148621
Perhaps it's your frustration showing, however, I posted a direct reply (bad example, but still) to your earlier statement that a crafting system with no dilithium input = bad enough items that nobody would want from crafting.
Then you inadvertently highlight the point that it's quite possible to get comparable gear (your example of fluid dynamics antiproton reward - repeatable) for zero dilithium cost yet a semi-decent (6-8 runs of the mission) time investment only. Chasered with a 20k dil "spin" of the die = too steep of a cost to gamble...
That's why many of us are calling for the elimination of Dil costs from crafting. Either that, or a massive uptake in Dil earnings to "offset" the costs involved... I know in the announcement thread I've been taking more the second course - more Dil and count on some reduction as considered by Hawk already...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
If you get rid of all the things you click on in a crafting system you can have 4 kinds.
Mostly junk in - Mostly junk out
Mostly junk in - Mostly good out
Mostly good in - Mostly good out
Mostly good in - Mostly junk out
*Junk in equals cheap in game drops and EC, good in is Dilithium
*Junk out is VR Mk XII gear with mods I dont want, good out is VR Mk XII gear with mods I do want.
Guess which one you guys have mostly good in - mostly junk out. So a little math, lets say I level to max without using Dilithium and I finally want to make 4 Beam arrays that are all Accx3. Now I am guessing but lets say I have a 50% chance to get a VR array. With the 4 mods we have there are 20 combinations. So I will have to make 40 weapons on average to get the one I want, but wait I want 4 so 160 TIMES! Or 3,200,000 Dilithium!!!! Thats 400 days of hitting the 8000 cap to grind in game or over $200 at an exchange rate of 150 Dilithium per one Zen.
You guys screwed up and now the forums are pissed and they should be. Just like my boss gets mad at me when I make a mistake.
You can fix it one of two different ways.
The easy way junk in junk out or drop the dilithium cost completely.
The better way good in good out keep the dilithium cost(maybe a little less) and let people pick their mods. Just let people pick the order mods are applied so if they are trying to make a Accx2 and CrtH they can have the CrtH go first (so if they only get a green they know it will be CrtH) or they can have CrtH go last and they know if they get a Blue it will be Accx2.
I know it sounds crazy but I think people are a lot happier almost getting what they want then not even close. Just think about when people buy lottery tickets I have heard people say I was only one number off they were happier even though they could have been a million off and the outcome was the same.
Extra bonus, make it so people can break down current weapons for a chance to get the mods. That way the old vender trash will have more value and new players can sell more drops early in game, make more EC and try more kinds of ship build. That will make them more invested in the game and more will to spend real money.
Well thats my 2 cents. And here is an extra penny keep it the way it is and I sadly will have no need for it.
also if somebody already said all this sorry I didn't read all the post before mine.
1: Dilithium requirements are horrid and, like the old system, I will not be using it if it has a dilithium requirement. The dilithium timesink mechanic in this game is disgusting. I have NO words for how much it sickens me. I already bought the lifetime sub, people who are playing F2P are going to do so regardless, people playing monthly subs will continue to do so. (and for the record I completely support and respect all 3 choices) We're not stupid, we don't need a carrot on a stick like dilithium to trick us into playing. I would bet money that more people have quit over stupid timesinks than get roped in long term by them.... But I digress.
2: I dump 20k dilithium to get a RANDOM reward? This is a joke, right? Whoever dreamed this (and like Dr. Sheldon Cooper I reserve this term for only when it truly applies) "malarkey" up should be publicly shamed. Why in the UNIVERSE would I waste that much time on a random reward?
I love it when game developers waste hundreds if not thousands of man hours concocting up complex systems that NO players utilize. My humble suggestion is to preplan the inevitable 2016 revamp to the useless crafting system that nobody uses that you are developing now to save yourself some time. Just forecast what this useless steaming pile of refuse will be like in 2 years, wipe the slate clean and start over. I swear on all that is holy nobody will argue if you guys scrap the whole thing and postpone it by 4 months. We'd rather get nothing than... well... engineered, advertized and hyped up nothing.
Again, I'm not trying to flame but this really is how myself and many others feel. Please take the suggestion and work on this longer to make it better. We'll all benefit for it. Thank you.
*edit*
3: Why duty officers? that's another system that should have died before it could gestate. I realize that (for some dumbfoundingly unimaginable reason) I am in the minority on this one, but I LOATHE the duty officer system. Up until now it has remained mostly optional, but if I must play spreadsheet roster online 9000 to craft, no thank you.
pass i'll save my resources for fleet gear. if it was just a dill cost to "get it now" and end the project early fine but to also get the components and then also a cost to end it early uhh no.
system Lord Baal is dead
Material Conversion Store
- Needs a mass convert function
- Perhaps when mousing over 'Common/ Uncommon/Random Crafting Materials' a list of the items gained through conversion should pop up. It should also list the average yield of each item gained.
R & D Duty Officer Tab
- Items such as Focusing Lens, Isolinear Circuitry and EPS Conduits are shared across multiple Research Schools but fundamentally are the same. It would be preferable for universal items to be put into a single research school while more specialised items remain in each respective school.
- Perhaps a mild colour scheme to distinguish between basic crafted components, rarer components, ground items and space items in the menus?
- A cost list is shown when creating an item; the icons should show how many units of an item already exist. Clicking on an icon should also link to the relevant page for crafting more of that component.
For more feedback I'd need something specific to focus upon, otherwise I'll wait and see what further developments are made in the coming month/s.
It's not what is done or said but why.
Words and actions may be judged, but motives?
Motives are truth to a believer
we have something like 4 gases per rarity and there are tons of components. would it have been so hard to limit that down to one gas per rarity, and just come up with some universal sounding name like crafting component or something and limit those to one each? its like seeing an item needs 7 components and trying to remember all the names and which field they are produced in is going to get annoying.
most of the components only offer 1 xp so they did not need to be scattered all over the different fields. they could have been put into one nice and easy field on its own. leave the actual weapons and consoles in the respective field so that its dead obvious what you need.
I dont like the dilithium cost for a random reward. the dilithium should be used as a guarantee to get the item type you want. if you spend none, you get a common, spend the full amount you get a very rare etc.
if you want a random element to be able to sell catalysts in the store then have an extra random bonus unique to crafting to give those weapons an attractive boost on a RNG. that way at worst you get a good item that is highly competitive with everything else, and at best, after you spent some money you get a little extra.
Here's a silly question. How can either of these stack three times when the global cooldown is at best 15 seconds? At most they will be able to stack twice and then for only 5 seconds.
Also, would it not be better if they were swapped around? That way the Cannon trait gains 2% damage for 20 sec and the Beam trait gains the +1 Turn Rate and + 1 Inertia. This is based on the line of thought that slow moving Cruisers spamming FAW not gaining more over the top damage, but a slight increase to Turn and Inertia that would allow the Cruiser pilots who like to use torps to be a little more effective in using them.
If they want to add the randomness in have it be at a significantly reduced cost and your basically gambling with your combine...
Then have a more expensive (Yet hopefully reasonable) Cost to make specific items when you can determine at least some of the factors (Like 3 out of 4?) if not all of them...
My new sig till Cryptic fixes it....
This Is That Thread!
It appears that our dedicated crafters will be reset to zero experience. This means having to make, and destroy many items before we can craft something useful.... again. So great cost and lots of time will be needed to regain what we had achieved earlier.
Crafting will be duty officer driven. Not having the right duty officers will be a serious impediment. This is yet another layer of cost and time over our heads. Then items will cost TONS of dilithium in spite of everything else. The most lame and useless gear has a dilithium cost now. I don't want to spend ANY dilithium to make trash! And lawd knows I will make piles and piles of trash before I can make anything of value.
Since you're making crafting a duty officer mission, that means I might lose everything that's invested into making a piece of high level/ high resource gear... even dilithium! No way!
Honestly, this looks to be an activity where the players lose big, and I am not sure if Cryptic will win either.
Member since December 2009
Good first as its the only one.
Good
1. Type.
Being able now to choice any type not just phaser or disruptors from day one. and i am glad to see Antiprotons there. that would be kick TRIBBLE in lower levels.
Bad.
1. Set up.
When i saw the new interface my heart fell to the floor. Its no only a mess but very hard to find your duty officers or see clearly which duty officer does what. The question i have whats wrong with the old pie chart? And where are all those all headings for type like "Diplomacy" or "Science". Are you trying to kill the game for new players and overwhelm them make them quit or have a heart-attack?
2. Changing items into other things then make the thing you want.... maybe.
This is a mess its not clear and and its better then the old system. I thought the idea was to cut down on so much items?
3. Cost.
The Dil is not worth it. At least with the old system even thought you couldn't choice the effects the item had you at least knew it was a blue or purple item (sometimes green went starting out). But You have WHITE items as a reward for all the time and energy you put in to this system? Why dont you just slap me a few times while your at it!
Dil a side the fact you have no control is just insulting. for some purple beams weapons took me 17 goes and that was just the not cost alot gear (or dil). and mostly white and green gear and took even more to get other console items but i deleted those as i need room.
Here is a pic.
http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Sanokskyrat/crafting001_zps85fb2a4f.png
Too sum up. I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED. The old system may had its floors but it did make you feel that ever step was worth it and you never got junk (and if you did you could give to new players or what ever. But white gear should NEVER be part of a crafting system unless its parts to make the better gear. It also was half of the dil store costs and a simple interface which was easy to understand with less parts then what this new system has. You could make versions of the same gear without using Dil at least till end game items and had no time you had to wait but that of the making the item which was 5 secs.
Also as an insult it is no longer crafting in your hands its using doff's. Some people dont like the doff system but liked to craft, so now their screwed. It was a bad idea to tie these two systems together. Also take the dilithium component away from crafting. Thats what killed it in the first place.
1. While it is GOOD that we can trade in our old materials for new ones, it is NOT good that we are forced to do it one at a time. It would be nice if there were a "trade all" option added for each type, or at the very least a slider up to 100 like we have for buying commodities.
2. Total randomness for what rarity an item is. This isn't so bad for crafting a bunch of low level gear for alts or friends who are just starting when it's only going to be used for probably a day at most, but when you want to make MK XII stuff for endgame use it is horrible. Especially when dilithium cost is thrown into the mix, and even moreso for weapons when the mods are totally random too. I could see the current dilithium costs MAYBE working out if we were able to choose what mods go onto weapons, but having to pay that much when you'll most likely get something with mods you do not want just makes it not worth it. I would much rather spend time grinding fleet marks and buying some elite fleet gear, and if it stays this way I can say with a fair amount of confidence that the crafting revamp is going to be very ill received.
3. Mat overload. Moreso when you have to use mats to craft other mats, this is fine for veteran crafters who have done this song and dance before in other games but may scare away newer players. But what really bugs me is dilithium cost attached to certain mats. THAT is not cool.
That being said there are some things I do like:
1. Doff based crafting system. Call me crazy but I actually like that it's assignment based and not something you have to stand around a console doing, now we'll be able to do it from anywhere at any time.
2. Bonuses for doffs tied to rarity and not specific stats. This is good because it won't cause hyperinflation of prices for certain doffs which would be virtually required while leaving the rest as mostly worthless.
My suggestions to improve it:
1. Tie rarity into crafting level, don't make it random. The higher your crafting level in a specific area the rarer the stuff you'll be able to make from that specific area.
2. Get rid of dil costs for purple mats and weapons with random rarity/mods. We already have too much to spend dil on as it is.
3. Add in the ability to force rarity, and the ability to force certain mods onto weapons for a dilithium fee. Being able to craft a MK XII ultra rare space weapon with Accx3 and CritX? I'd spend 100k dil for that and I know for sure many other people would too.
In crafting, the tradeoff for time and resources spent has traditionally been gear that may or may not be slightly better than dropped gear of the same level and quality, but that always known stats. Crafting is an investment where a player knows that if he takes the time and effort to acquire X items and spends Y time engaged in the crafting process and away from other gameplay, the end result will be Desired Item Z. If I personally had to choose between probably going through the entire crafting process multiple times to get a particular piece of equipment, hoping it drops during gameplay (if it can drop), or just purchasing it outright, I'd likely choose the latter two -- even if the purchasing cost is higher than the stated crafting cost.
Why is this? For starters, it's very likely that needing to re-craft items will drive the overall crafting costs higher than the purchase cost, thereby making outright purchase the more desirable option. Also, because I'd actually be purchasing the item I wanted, and not purchasing a dice roll to potentially get the item I wanted. Now, there's nothing wrong with purchasing dice rolls, IMO. I see nothing wrong with lockboxes, for example. But even in the case of lockboxes, the truly desirable and valuable items are concrete in nature; you know what you're gambling for when you choose to gamble. Under the new crafting system as it currently stands, you're playing Wheel of Fish.
Given that the new crafting system is actually rather quite robust, there are two potential solutions for the issue of gear randomness. The first solution is a simple drop-down menu of gear from which we can choose to craft, similar to the old crafting system, and nearly every other MMO crafting system in existence. Or - and I'm not sure about the feasibility of doing this within the window before 9.5's launch (if at all), but it bears discussion - the addition of (craftable?) modifier traits which can then be added to crafted gear. To make crafted items more desirable, perhaps there could be extra modifier "slots" on crafted gear, or modifier combinations could be allowed that aren't normally allowed on dropped or bought gear -- things like [ACC]x3, for example. Modifier traits could have a built-in chance to not "stick" if artificially lengthening the time and resource sinks is an intentional part of the system design. Heck, even just being able to select modifiers from a menu would go fantastic lengths to add player agency to the process, and would help in justifying crafting costs at higher levels. And both of those would go a long way toward making the new crafting system something in which more players would want to participate.