Random mods are the killer for me. Quality variance is at least paritally believable, since the DOFFs can be blamed for that, but randomized mods aren't crafting they are lotto. What you should do:
1) Make each mod require special material. If you want [Acc]x3 you need (3) of the resource that grants [Acc].
(snip...)
Oh, I really like that idea.
I think the biggest problem is the lack of ability to pick what mods we want on our weapons, and we have ways of doing that already (Reps and Fleet). The crafting system need that ability to be viable.
What's going to happen to schematics? You know, that thing we had to get before we could build the thing we were creating?
I've got a few lying around that I didn't use after the system started requiring unreplicated materials. For that matter, I've got an old Delta Flyer schematic I got stuck with when I couldn't complete the old Delta Flyer mission before they put it in the C-Store.
It would be lovely if some of those schematics got translated into materials or even R&D xp.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I'll acknowledge that this is still in testing phase and there are probably graphic/balance/up tweaks in process to come, so I'll just address what seems like the biggest problem with crafting in this form:
Your end result is unknown.
Here's what I mean: If a craftsman sets out to make something, he has the end result in mind. He knows the details of what he is making and how it will turn out. However, with this new system, very little is known about what we will end up with. It's more like "experimenting" than "crafting".
I understand the needs of gameplay and your business model requiring time gating and some monetization, but in think that should come in the components, not the final product.
For instance, say I want to produce a Phaser beam array mk Xii [Acc]x2 [CrtH]
I should be able to create a Very Rare Phaser Beam Array Mk XII "frame" with three upgrade slots, and 2 [Acc] items and 1 [CrtH] items to slot in that frame as the final step in that process. Making the frame and items can each be individually difficult with random chances if success or results, but once I have collected those components I can create the device I need.
Other notes:
*the new Doff UI needs to display traits when selecting Doffs for non R&D missions
*R&D XP needs to be drastically increased. I think this is known, but I'll say it just in case.
I'll be brutally honest here, I'm disappointed. This isn't a revamp, just you guys changing the Crafting system into the DOFF system. I'm sorry Devs, but this is NOT what people wanted.
1) The UI is horrible and unintuitive
2) Instead of lowering Dilithum Costs, you actually are increasing it.
3) Recipes are bland and uncreative.
4) Inability to choose rarity type, it's all just dumb DOFF random luck in what you get.
5) Inability to choose the modifiers.
6) Recipes that once took a few seconds, now take hours. Unless you buy it immediately with a massive Dilithium Tax.
7) No room for add on recipes like the Jem'Hadar Weapon Packs.
8) No Sign of Melee Weapon Crafting
9) No Sign of Kit Module Crafting
10) No Freedom of Creativity
11) Conversion Rates from old Mats to New Mats is horrendous. I had over 200 particles, barely reached level 1 in one of the schools. So of us who are crafting vets, we have to start completely over.
12) A new mega grind.
Right now, I am extremely disappointed that in all this time, this is what you guys came up with. Especially when people who wanted a crafting revamp was asking for systems of the best crafting in all MMOs like Everquest, Dark Ages of Camelot, Star Wars Galaxies, and more. Instead, you turn this into a DOFF - Rep grind. We want to feel like we are creating the items. Look at Sisko, he was hands-on with the Defiant. Janeway was hands-on with projects. Picard was hands-on with some things too.
...
Also the crafting system is a golden opportunity for you to create new NPC vendors in dead spots that players could be sent to, to buy components for crafting.
I'm sorry Cryptic, but I do not endorse this new system.
I'm forced to agree with virtually all of the above. I am certainly willing to pay dilithium for crafted gear, but not for random crafted gear that has a high probability of being worthless.
When I set out to craft something in real life, let's say a nice meal, I have a lot of control over the results. I don't assemble my ingredients and then hope that I roll a critical hit on my ability to properly boil water for the pasta, and that I'll get fresh papardelle instead of expired gluten-free spaghetti. My ingredients, for the most part, determine the results.
I know what I'm trying to make. It may not turn out perfectly, but I'm not cooking to make a random, generic meal. I think that crafting should reflect a similar mentality. The system, as it stands, relies far too much on gambling and mass production, hoping you'll occasionally strike it rich with a purple accx3. That's what a loot table is for, in my opinion.
Combine that randomness with an impossibly cumbersome workflow in order to craft items, and you've got a system that I won't be spending any time with when it launches.
I'm not saying this just to burn the new system -- it's obvious you spent a lot of time on this. I'm saying this so that some of my thoughts might be of use to you as you re-evaluate.
I'd have like to make my first feedback post a bit longer, after I'd worked with the new system long enough to get a good impression. Unfortunately, I'm stuck unable to craft anything because I only had three particle traces on the particular character I have on Tribble. As such, I can neither craft components nor create items from said components.
My ability to get materials has been DRAMATICALLY decreased by the removal of cluster exploration. Objectively, I can understand that there was a need to reduce the availability to materials. But with material gathering options now limited to scoring well on dilithium mining and radiation scans, buying them from the exchange (at insanely inflated prices), or lucking out on repeating episodes, I've got the distinct feeling that many players won't find the system in its current form worth their time and effort.
If there's an incoming exploration revamp that will allow players more ways to obtain materials, that's all well and good. But if this exploration revamp isn't coming until Expansion 2 (making assumptions here), then the new crafting system will just about be dead on arrival.
Also, as others have noted, the random modifier aspect of the items we craft doesn't sit very well. Like the removal of star clusters, I recognize that it was a design decision intended to increase the length of player participation in the new system by not always giving them what they want or need. From the position of a player, however, I'd much rather have to craft additional items that can be applied to projects in order to give the resulting gear the modifiers I want. I'd even be alright with a chance for the modifiers to not take, forcing the object to be crafted again until the desired results are achieved. As it stands, there's no player agency. It's all random chance. And that will further discourage players from using the system.
That's it for now. I'm going to see if I can start scrounging up materials so that I can actually work with the system enough to come to an informed opinion.
EDIT: While typing this, the doff mission list for Delta Volanis updated, and now includes a few missions that should reward materials upon success. While still not ideal, IMO, I'm going to give them a shot and see what sort of mats I get, the quantity of said mats, and how long it takes for a cluster to give more mat missions.
Okay Dilithium requirements killed the old crafting system if you could call it that. This has seriously got to go. What about turning in old common and uncommon unreplicateable materials in the new system they can't be turned in for anything! So I take it we are all just SOL on being able to transfer them into Very Rare materials in the new system? I hate to say this but WoW has a better crafting system. For that matter Rift, LOTRO, minecraft, and many others have way better crafting systems in them.
I think the new crafting system will live or die depending on whether or not they replace the luck-based mechanic. I see some people complaining about the dilithium costs. The costs are fairly easy to change. The luck-based mechanic is a basic part of their design and probably takes a lot of work to change. That probably means that few people will use the new crafting system. Well, few people used the old crafting system, so that's basically status quo. I'm more worried about the changes to the doff system, as we've lost a bunch of functionality there.
I think I can live with everything BUT the random factor. Part of what makes a good crafting system is knowing exactly what you are getting. The luck thing can still make a difference.
Lets take a beam array, for example. In my ideal crafting system, you open up the UI, select beams, and then damage type and mark level. It tells you that you need [Subcomponent X], [Subcomponent y] and [Subcomponent Z]. I proceed to make Xs and Ys and Zs. While doing so, some of them become uncommon, rare, or very rare. They are used the same way as the common variety. When I add my higher quality components, I get access to additional modifier slots. Adding 3 uncommon (Green) would open 1 modifier, 3 Rares would open 2, very rare would open 3. You can then use DOFF missions to "refine" the subcomponents to make them higher quality.
Then, when it actually comes to producing the item, it is me, the captain that wants to get my hands dirty building the thing. Doffs can help (Add 1 to reduce the crafting time by x%, 2 for 2x%, etc...), but I don't want to hand off something to a JR officer for a random chance at greatness.
The modifiers are researched and unlocked. Material components can be crafted from resources or broken down from old equipment.
This, to me, makes a more compelling crafting system than "hand your materials to some random guy on deck 15 who may or may not know what he's doing"
Material conversion needs a slider or a convert all button
As far as crafting. I'd like to queue the crafting of multiple components. Right now it's a ton of clicking to make them.
Also I'd like Dil requirements based on the minimum quality item you can get. It's kind of TRIBBLE to spend hard earned dilithium equivalent to a purple item and get a blue.
Something I was really hoping for was the ability to put gear into crafting and improve it.
1) I dislike the new DOFF UI: As stated, we are given a 'cleaner' DOFF screen, but we don't have the information needed to make command decisions. It's like trying to cook with a recipe that just has a photo of the finished product. Also, the Dev's interpretation of 'best available' and mine may be different. I'd prefer that if I search, it is arranged in a way that makes it easier for me to find. The current holodeck layout is more than suitable, IMHO.
2) Crafting Mats: I'll only say it for posterity, but as so many others have mentioned we NEED a slider. Also, I can't fathom why anyone that has rare particle traces wouldn't get rare crafting components. It's a slap in the face to anyone that has a collection of these hanging in their banks. Some may have bought extra bank slots just to keep them around. Convert to equal level, please
3) Crafting: The UI is okay, if not cumbersome. I understand wanting to streamline the process and not have EVERY craftable mark and EVERY craftable damage type listed in the main menu, but there has to be a better way than having the user constantly have to back-track. How? Honestly, I don't know.
I do like having a few steps necessary to obtaining the finished product. It gives people a way to make a little EC by crafting minutia items to expedite an EC rich crafter hopeful. I understand the need for some randomness, so I don't have too much trouble accepting that not all of my creations will be uber. With that acceptance, though, I believe there needs to be a significantly lower DIL investment. I assume (I know, I know) that there will be some pretty exciting craftables as testing continues, but there will be no need to make them if the dilithium cost is too high. We, as the crafter, assume some of the risk at the benefit of a possible 'home run'. If you feel DIL levels are appropriate, give us the ability to choose our modifiers. That way, even a blue Mk XII AP Beam array with Crit D/ACC/Crit H will have some use/value and thus be worth the DIL investment.
Finally, as a side, I understand that this game is F2P and as such requires income through some means other than subscription. I accept that, and have no problem with it. I would just warn Cryptic and PWE to tread lightly when increasing DIL sinks. The increase in Rep weapons DIL cost, which is pretty substantial, paired with the high DIL investment necessary in crafting, may sour some players. I'm no economist, but I am a consumer. I'm a 700+ day subscriber, a purchaser of Zen, and an avid STO player. PLEASE don't sour this for me . I'M BEGGING YOU!!!!
Are you serious? You want me to test a new system for something I'm not even remotely interested in AND you want me to hunt down "ingredients" too? No thanks.
Really hate the new way of slotting the doffs for r&d or regular can't find the ones i always use this way the old way maybe didn't look as nice but was easier :mad:
In contrast to some lines of thought, I can deal with some randomness in crafting.
The problem is that the system I am seeing (thanks for the video hrci2907!) is a little too random for something that's going to cost dilithium and quite possibly some hard cash to get dilithium.
DOFFing to influence the item quality is fine, but there is an element of chance there that you won't get the quality of item you wanted and in fact could get a lesser quality item. Then, on top of that, there's the random element of collecting enough of the materials you need to actually -make- said item. And on top of that, the modifiers you end up with are totally random and totally closed to being influenced.
If I am wanting a Very Rare Antiproton DHC Mk XII [+Acc(x3)], for example, I might be willing to gamble that it ends up being of lesser quality (Uncommon [+Acc]). Or I might be willing to gamble that it doesn't get the mods I wanted (Very Rare [+Dmg, +CritD, +CritH]). Depending on what you're interested in, you might prefer one gamble over another. But high-stakes gambling without knowing what you're gambling for?
Sure, you'll be able to buy Catalysts to improve your chances of getting a better quality item. But I don't think there's a guaranteed minimum quality, is there? Still a mostly random result and still no guarantee you'll get ANY of the mods you wanted.
I believe the term another poster used applies here: vendor trash. Why would I want to begin Crafting again, exactly?
Random is not to be unexpected in research, true. But this isn't real life and I am not a scientist with a million dollar grant to conduct that research. If the 'research' fails to produce the desired result, I personally am out the time and resources I put into it. That's what's upsetting. Too much risk, cost, and effort for what looks like too little benefit at the moment.
Remove a little bit of the risk, decrease the cost and/or effort, and/or increase the benefit?
The issue is, at this point in the development, there's only so much Cryptic is going to be willing to change.
Add a sub-system to influence the modifier result? Doubtful. If that wasn't part of the original design intent, it ain't happening in S9.5. That part of the risk, I think we're going to have to live with.
Make the items way better than anything else we have in the game? That's just influencing power-creep and pay-to-win thinking.
Make it cheaper? Maybe. That might improve the risk/reward ratio enough.
Tinker with the odds? Probably the easiest 'fix' of all, but they'll still have to either reduce costs or improve dilithium flow.
Make higher quality DOFFs count for more
Eliminate Common results completely; Research always results in Uncommon or better
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
So I've done a round of asteroid mining, and have been flying around a few sectors doing doff missions that award materials. Interesting results thus far. I'll make a new thread after a while, once I've done a few more sectors.
I will start off by saying I haven't looked at this myself on tribble yet but from comments made by others I can say with certainty that this system is neither research or development. If I am a researcher doing a prototype assembly I keep meticulous instructions to replicate what I have done in case I should wish to assemble another item the same as the one just done. The system would show this by removing the current item from the random list and put it as a known recipe. New experiments should then give another random unknown item.
As it looks right now is I assemble a few components and then give them to my doffs 5 year old to see what the ferengi on the street corner will give me for them!
I for one am almost certain to be pretty much ignoring this system as a waste of time.
Wondering what, besides the extra tracks, I'm really getting from this system?
I mean, if you compare the "create experimental blank" DOff missions and this new crafting system, both:
1. Give a result based on the quality of DOff(s) assigned.
2. Give a random result. At least crafting lets me pick the "name" of it - for example, craft experimental beam array can give me any of the 6 major energy types, crafting lets me at least pick phaser or polaron...
3. Take piles of inputs. However, the experimental runs don't make me build parts.
4. Profit is based on the graces of the RNG...
Now, do note, that in the crafting version of this system, for a Mk XII whatever I'm paying 20k, 25k, whatever-k Dil, where the old DOff mission was dilithium free, it only needed the traces...
At least these missions will stick around, though they'll ask for the "new version of traces". Still gonna get "cheap/free" parts...
Would be nice to learn (test?) the new mods, as well. Especially with a touch of "pick a mod", this might actually make crafting useful and exciting again...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
PROPOSAL
Use material based on outcome of the mission. Get purple: use all of the supplies. Get blue item :return unused dilithium acquired material. Green :return more of the unused material. Keep ECs even increase EC requirement. We need a sink.
Exploration clusters :increase the number off the missions to make them the same as before treat them like another sector with DOFF missions in all available categories.
Make cluster DOFF mission option available on the console on you bridge, so if you parked by the cluster you still can utilize bridge invite to share missions with other players.
It seems very difficult to find out what you actually need to build a particular item.
Also, I think it's very problematic that you can't actually choose modifiers or be certain what kind of rarity the item will be.
You may say the cost for an item is less Dilithium then for a reputation item, but that ignores that I may not even get the item that I want.
In the dilithium, fleet or rep stores, I choose what item I want. The choice is limited, of course, but I know this is exactly what I will get. I know it will be worth the Dilithium I spend for it.
I don't know that for an R&D item. It's in fact likely I will not get what I want, considering the amount of available modifiers in the first place.
You need to severely limit the amount of randomization if you want the system have a good chance of being used in the first place.
One option here:
Let us choose the modifiers we want as paramemters (like we can select the specific type of console and the Mark), but keep the quality random based on DOFF and skill level. If the highest rarity isn't reached, fill up the items modifiers from the list of selected ones.
For example:
Parameters for Beam Array:
o Energy Type
o Mark
o Primary Mod
o Secondary Mod
o Tertiary Mod
So if a player chooses to make a Phaser beam array Mark XI with Acc, CritH, Dmg a mods, if he gets a uncommon version, he gets an Phaser Beam Array XI [Acc], if he gets a rare result he gets a Phaser Beam Array XI [Acc] [CritH]and if he gets a very rare result he gets a Phaser Beam Array XI [Acc] [CritH] [DMG].
That is still less than optimal for the players, so I still think the dilithium cost need to be severely reduced, but at least you can be reasonably certain you get something along the lines you actually wanted, and something you can likely also sell on the exchange if it's not very rare.
Yes, the randomness is incredibly STUPID for crafting. What's even more crazy is that everything uses the same components. Phasers are not built the same as disruptors.
What they need to do at the base is have us acquire schematics (not preset), have a literal graphic map of a Beam Array, Photon Torpedo, etc, where we literally make the components of the weapon, put it into the device slot as if we were actually creating the device. Then when it's all assembled, we click an assembly button and presto.
And in this you can augment with gems (additional components) for the modifiers. The more modifiers, the harder to create the weapon. That way Accx3, CritHx3, etc modifiers will be incredibly difficult to construct, but highly worth it if you managed to successfully assemble it.
Add a salvaging and reverse engineering abilities.
As I said prior, prime opportunity to add new types of Vendors in dead spots. They sell common and uncommon components. Have rare missions that let you get the harder rarity components.
But as it is now, they just shortcutted everything by copying the Neverwinter crafting system, plugged it into the DOFF system and called it new. If you think about it, its no different than the existing crafting system where you gather matericals, click start and wait til it's done. Except now, DOFFs are involved.
Really, they did not put any thought into this system. As I said before, this isn't crafting. They just made a bad system, worse. If I was them, I cancel these changes, because players will not want another boring grind.
...Add a sub-system to influence the modifier result? Doubtful. If that wasn't part of the original design intent, it ain't happening in S9.5. That part of the risk, I think we're going to have to live with....
What bothers me is that there have been wonderful suggestions on the forums for years about what a good crafting system would/could look like, and then instead of using those ideas they base most, if not all, of the system on Neverwinter's (which isn't a true crafting system, IMO. The player isn't doing the work, (s)he's having someone else do the work.) So, while the current design document doesn't include a system where players can pick and choose mods for items, it could have and should have, since I know those ideas have been brought up numerous times in the crafting discussions....
Ok initial thoughts from a very quick look at the new crafting interface:-
1) As previously mentioned the current conversion mechanism is horrible. Trying to trade in 30 or 40 materials was bad enough for a test, doing that for a conversion to a live system with thousands of samples would be unbearable.
2) What's the point of the quick finish (aka pay dilithium) button on the crafting interface? I just tried making basic components and they were done in 10 seconds so paying for them or having the option too seems pointless on the quick missions and rather expensive for the longer projects (but I guess some people will want now sort of thing).
3) The outcomes text looks to need a little refinement, the text size gets larger as you go Crit Success, Success, Failure, Disaster with the Crit Success text size being a little on the small size in my opinion.
4) Doff selection, I like that doff's are auto-assigned and the selection seems to order list them. However I don't like not having the option to see success and crit criteria against doffs when you manually select them. Given the way some missions are build with success chance reducing crit chance I like to manually select doffs to maximise the crit and the new system makes this very difficult since you don't know what traits the doff's have and its not clear on what criteria the auto-select is using to select the doffs (maximised crit or maximised success)?
5) A number of Doff missions say that the reward is a special bridge officer when the cursor is held over the reward item icon rather that saying what the specific item or class rewarded is.
6) All the crafting and materials missions on defera still use the old crafting system. Presumably this is going to be updated to the new system or the unique crafting rewards somehow incorporated into the new system and the materials made tradable for new style materials?
7) The results and requirements boxes on the doff mission selection page isn't particularly user friendly. Depending on your doff window size some of the requirements/rewards are hidden from view (at least until you select the assignment) and the only way to see them is to stretch the window horizontally so that the boxes become fully visible.
8) Indication of whether R&D projects have crited or not would be nice (only way I found was by observing the rewards).
9) A school progress counter would be useful that give you a visible numerical progress update rather than just a bar.
10) Not sure whether this is down to the crafting system, but crafted a couple of low tier beam tactical consoles (Phaser and something else - tribble just went down so can't confirm) and they don't give a grade number on the console icon.
QUESTION: Memory Alpha is being pulled. What will happen to the diplomacy missions happening there (The Ferengi missions)? Are there any plans at all to improve how the old diplomacy missions are part of the current game flow?
If you lower the Dilithium costs it will be a worthwhile system but the costs for new items are rather steep and prohibitive ,and I will not be participating.
I feel you need to add sliders for the conversion mats to the new mats [The code is already there in the commodities screens just add it to the conversions]. instead of making us clicking thousands of time.
also, we need to either add options to choose the modifiers or reduce/eliminate the dilithium costs after all, who would pay 20k dilithium for random items when they can pay 25k for fleet level stuff and rep items?
leveling the crafting needs to be quicker and not require a long [over 30 days grind] for each level.
even if you would set my crafting skill to max right away for completing the original 3-branch crafting system, there is just not enough alcohol in the world to make me so drunk that I would pay dilithium for an item with randomized modifiers I have to wait an hour for if I can buy from a reputation or fleet store.
Kind regards
K'Tar
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
This system should not rely on RNG to determine what item we get. I do not want to waste resources crafting an item and rolling the dice, hoping to get something good. That's incredibly dumb and laughable.
I want to invest into a system that allows me to create the items that I want to create. I know it's an early build, but if this is what you intend for crafting to be, I feel it to be a waste of time.
Also, remove the 5 second component crafting assignments. They are pointless, tedious, and time consuming. Allow us to acquire these components directly by trading in what raw materials we have.
I just realized that I'm falling into the trap of adding commentary to an official feedback thread.
If you haven't gone onto Tribble and observed things first hand (or at least second hand from a video), you are not providing feedback. You are providing commentary that will get in the way of the Devs gathering and providing feedback.
Please test the new stuff on Tribble, then come back and post.
~Bluegeek
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I feel you need to add sliders for the conversion mats to the new mats [The code is already there in the commodities screens just add it to the conversions]. instead of making us clicking thousands of time.
also, we need to either add options to choose the modifiers or reduce/eliminate the dilithium costs after all, who would pay 20k dilithium for random items when they can pay 25k for fleet level stuff and rep items?
leveling the crafting needs to be quicker and not require a long [over 30 days grind] for each level.
1.) Got to play around with it (finally) and with all of these conversion stores... perhaps you need to spend some/alot of time actually developing a conversion UI. Drag a whatever in, it shows what you get, click accept and boom, done. No more stores with fifty currency types. If you can't convert an item, it doesn't do anything.
2.) I'll reiterate this. Pick one. Either have the random stupidness (I know that is such a wonderful helpful term, but it really does feel like random stupidness) or charge us dilithium. One or the other. If you have to delay the whole thing by three months to take a step back and re-think/re-design, I'm fine with that. If it goes live like this, I probably won't invest much time in it.
3.) Much faster... To me maxing all 7 of the crafting branches should take as long as 1 reputation (about a month).
Comments
Oh, I really like that idea.
I think the biggest problem is the lack of ability to pick what mods we want on our weapons, and we have ways of doing that already (Reps and Fleet). The crafting system need that ability to be viable.
What's going to happen to schematics? You know, that thing we had to get before we could build the thing we were creating?
I've got a few lying around that I didn't use after the system started requiring unreplicated materials. For that matter, I've got an old Delta Flyer schematic I got stuck with when I couldn't complete the old Delta Flyer mission before they put it in the C-Store.
It would be lovely if some of those schematics got translated into materials or even R&D xp.
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Your end result is unknown.
Here's what I mean: If a craftsman sets out to make something, he has the end result in mind. He knows the details of what he is making and how it will turn out. However, with this new system, very little is known about what we will end up with. It's more like "experimenting" than "crafting".
I understand the needs of gameplay and your business model requiring time gating and some monetization, but in think that should come in the components, not the final product.
For instance, say I want to produce a Phaser beam array mk Xii [Acc]x2 [CrtH]
I should be able to create a Very Rare Phaser Beam Array Mk XII "frame" with three upgrade slots, and 2 [Acc] items and 1 [CrtH] items to slot in that frame as the final step in that process. Making the frame and items can each be individually difficult with random chances if success or results, but once I have collected those components I can create the device I need.
Other notes:
*the new Doff UI needs to display traits when selecting Doffs for non R&D missions
*R&D XP needs to be drastically increased. I think this is known, but I'll say it just in case.
I'm forced to agree with virtually all of the above. I am certainly willing to pay dilithium for crafted gear, but not for random crafted gear that has a high probability of being worthless.
When I set out to craft something in real life, let's say a nice meal, I have a lot of control over the results. I don't assemble my ingredients and then hope that I roll a critical hit on my ability to properly boil water for the pasta, and that I'll get fresh papardelle instead of expired gluten-free spaghetti. My ingredients, for the most part, determine the results.
I know what I'm trying to make. It may not turn out perfectly, but I'm not cooking to make a random, generic meal. I think that crafting should reflect a similar mentality. The system, as it stands, relies far too much on gambling and mass production, hoping you'll occasionally strike it rich with a purple accx3. That's what a loot table is for, in my opinion.
Combine that randomness with an impossibly cumbersome workflow in order to craft items, and you've got a system that I won't be spending any time with when it launches.
I'm not saying this just to burn the new system -- it's obvious you spent a lot of time on this. I'm saying this so that some of my thoughts might be of use to you as you re-evaluate.
My ability to get materials has been DRAMATICALLY decreased by the removal of cluster exploration. Objectively, I can understand that there was a need to reduce the availability to materials. But with material gathering options now limited to scoring well on dilithium mining and radiation scans, buying them from the exchange (at insanely inflated prices), or lucking out on repeating episodes, I've got the distinct feeling that many players won't find the system in its current form worth their time and effort.
If there's an incoming exploration revamp that will allow players more ways to obtain materials, that's all well and good. But if this exploration revamp isn't coming until Expansion 2 (making assumptions here), then the new crafting system will just about be dead on arrival.
Also, as others have noted, the random modifier aspect of the items we craft doesn't sit very well. Like the removal of star clusters, I recognize that it was a design decision intended to increase the length of player participation in the new system by not always giving them what they want or need. From the position of a player, however, I'd much rather have to craft additional items that can be applied to projects in order to give the resulting gear the modifiers I want. I'd even be alright with a chance for the modifiers to not take, forcing the object to be crafted again until the desired results are achieved. As it stands, there's no player agency. It's all random chance. And that will further discourage players from using the system.
That's it for now. I'm going to see if I can start scrounging up materials so that I can actually work with the system enough to come to an informed opinion.
EDIT: While typing this, the doff mission list for Delta Volanis updated, and now includes a few missions that should reward materials upon success. While still not ideal, IMO, I'm going to give them a shot and see what sort of mats I get, the quantity of said mats, and how long it takes for a cluster to give more mat missions.
I think I can live with everything BUT the random factor. Part of what makes a good crafting system is knowing exactly what you are getting. The luck thing can still make a difference.
Lets take a beam array, for example. In my ideal crafting system, you open up the UI, select beams, and then damage type and mark level. It tells you that you need [Subcomponent X], [Subcomponent y] and [Subcomponent Z]. I proceed to make Xs and Ys and Zs. While doing so, some of them become uncommon, rare, or very rare. They are used the same way as the common variety. When I add my higher quality components, I get access to additional modifier slots. Adding 3 uncommon (Green) would open 1 modifier, 3 Rares would open 2, very rare would open 3. You can then use DOFF missions to "refine" the subcomponents to make them higher quality.
Then, when it actually comes to producing the item, it is me, the captain that wants to get my hands dirty building the thing. Doffs can help (Add 1 to reduce the crafting time by x%, 2 for 2x%, etc...), but I don't want to hand off something to a JR officer for a random chance at greatness.
The modifiers are researched and unlocked. Material components can be crafted from resources or broken down from old equipment.
This, to me, makes a more compelling crafting system than "hand your materials to some random guy on deck 15 who may or may not know what he's doing"
Remove dilithium from the crafting system
Give the ability to salvage items acquired either from crafting or from normal play
Give the ability to craft ALL ground and space items with the exception of those that are specific to missions, and reputation system
Other things posted here (such as sliders) I'm sure will be addressed
As far as crafting. I'd like to queue the crafting of multiple components. Right now it's a ton of clicking to make them.
Also I'd like Dil requirements based on the minimum quality item you can get. It's kind of TRIBBLE to spend hard earned dilithium equivalent to a purple item and get a blue.
Something I was really hoping for was the ability to put gear into crafting and improve it.
Inventory window misremembers tab
2) Crafting Mats: I'll only say it for posterity, but as so many others have mentioned we NEED a slider. Also, I can't fathom why anyone that has rare particle traces wouldn't get rare crafting components. It's a slap in the face to anyone that has a collection of these hanging in their banks. Some may have bought extra bank slots just to keep them around. Convert to equal level, please
3) Crafting: The UI is okay, if not cumbersome. I understand wanting to streamline the process and not have EVERY craftable mark and EVERY craftable damage type listed in the main menu, but there has to be a better way than having the user constantly have to back-track. How? Honestly, I don't know.
I do like having a few steps necessary to obtaining the finished product. It gives people a way to make a little EC by crafting minutia items to expedite an EC rich crafter hopeful. I understand the need for some randomness, so I don't have too much trouble accepting that not all of my creations will be uber. With that acceptance, though, I believe there needs to be a significantly lower DIL investment. I assume (I know, I know) that there will be some pretty exciting craftables as testing continues, but there will be no need to make them if the dilithium cost is too high. We, as the crafter, assume some of the risk at the benefit of a possible 'home run'. If you feel DIL levels are appropriate, give us the ability to choose our modifiers. That way, even a blue Mk XII AP Beam array with Crit D/ACC/Crit H will have some use/value and thus be worth the DIL investment.
Finally, as a side, I understand that this game is F2P and as such requires income through some means other than subscription. I accept that, and have no problem with it. I would just warn Cryptic and PWE to tread lightly when increasing DIL sinks. The increase in Rep weapons DIL cost, which is pretty substantial, paired with the high DIL investment necessary in crafting, may sour some players. I'm no economist, but I am a consumer. I'm a 700+ day subscriber, a purchaser of Zen, and an avid STO player. PLEASE don't sour this for me . I'M BEGGING YOU!!!!
The problem is that the system I am seeing (thanks for the video hrci2907!) is a little too random for something that's going to cost dilithium and quite possibly some hard cash to get dilithium.
DOFFing to influence the item quality is fine, but there is an element of chance there that you won't get the quality of item you wanted and in fact could get a lesser quality item. Then, on top of that, there's the random element of collecting enough of the materials you need to actually -make- said item. And on top of that, the modifiers you end up with are totally random and totally closed to being influenced.
If I am wanting a Very Rare Antiproton DHC Mk XII [+Acc(x3)], for example, I might be willing to gamble that it ends up being of lesser quality (Uncommon [+Acc]). Or I might be willing to gamble that it doesn't get the mods I wanted (Very Rare [+Dmg, +CritD, +CritH]). Depending on what you're interested in, you might prefer one gamble over another. But high-stakes gambling without knowing what you're gambling for?
Sure, you'll be able to buy Catalysts to improve your chances of getting a better quality item. But I don't think there's a guaranteed minimum quality, is there? Still a mostly random result and still no guarantee you'll get ANY of the mods you wanted.
I believe the term another poster used applies here: vendor trash. Why would I want to begin Crafting again, exactly?
Random is not to be unexpected in research, true. But this isn't real life and I am not a scientist with a million dollar grant to conduct that research. If the 'research' fails to produce the desired result, I personally am out the time and resources I put into it. That's what's upsetting. Too much risk, cost, and effort for what looks like too little benefit at the moment.
Remove a little bit of the risk, decrease the cost and/or effort, and/or increase the benefit?
The issue is, at this point in the development, there's only so much Cryptic is going to be willing to change.
Add a sub-system to influence the modifier result? Doubtful. If that wasn't part of the original design intent, it ain't happening in S9.5. That part of the risk, I think we're going to have to live with.
Make the items way better than anything else we have in the game? That's just influencing power-creep and pay-to-win thinking.
Make it cheaper? Maybe. That might improve the risk/reward ratio enough.
Tinker with the odds? Probably the easiest 'fix' of all, but they'll still have to either reduce costs or improve dilithium flow.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
As it looks right now is I assemble a few components and then give them to my doffs 5 year old to see what the ferengi on the street corner will give me for them!
I for one am almost certain to be pretty much ignoring this system as a waste of time.
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
I mean, if you compare the "create experimental blank" DOff missions and this new crafting system, both:
1. Give a result based on the quality of DOff(s) assigned.
2. Give a random result. At least crafting lets me pick the "name" of it - for example, craft experimental beam array can give me any of the 6 major energy types, crafting lets me at least pick phaser or polaron...
3. Take piles of inputs. However, the experimental runs don't make me build parts.
4. Profit is based on the graces of the RNG...
Now, do note, that in the crafting version of this system, for a Mk XII whatever I'm paying 20k, 25k, whatever-k Dil, where the old DOff mission was dilithium free, it only needed the traces...
At least these missions will stick around, though they'll ask for the "new version of traces". Still gonna get "cheap/free" parts...
Would be nice to learn (test?) the new mods, as well. Especially with a touch of "pick a mod", this might actually make crafting useful and exciting again...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Use material based on outcome of the mission. Get purple: use all of the supplies. Get blue item :return unused dilithium acquired material. Green :return more of the unused material. Keep ECs even increase EC requirement. We need a sink.
Exploration clusters :increase the number off the missions to make them the same as before treat them like another sector with DOFF missions in all available categories.
Make cluster DOFF mission option available on the console on you bridge, so if you parked by the cluster you still can utilize bridge invite to share missions with other players.
Yes, the randomness is incredibly STUPID for crafting. What's even more crazy is that everything uses the same components. Phasers are not built the same as disruptors.
What they need to do at the base is have us acquire schematics (not preset), have a literal graphic map of a Beam Array, Photon Torpedo, etc, where we literally make the components of the weapon, put it into the device slot as if we were actually creating the device. Then when it's all assembled, we click an assembly button and presto.
And in this you can augment with gems (additional components) for the modifiers. The more modifiers, the harder to create the weapon. That way Accx3, CritHx3, etc modifiers will be incredibly difficult to construct, but highly worth it if you managed to successfully assemble it.
Add a salvaging and reverse engineering abilities.
As I said prior, prime opportunity to add new types of Vendors in dead spots. They sell common and uncommon components. Have rare missions that let you get the harder rarity components.
But as it is now, they just shortcutted everything by copying the Neverwinter crafting system, plugged it into the DOFF system and called it new. If you think about it, its no different than the existing crafting system where you gather matericals, click start and wait til it's done. Except now, DOFFs are involved.
Really, they did not put any thought into this system. As I said before, this isn't crafting. They just made a bad system, worse. If I was them, I cancel these changes, because players will not want another boring grind.
What bothers me is that there have been wonderful suggestions on the forums for years about what a good crafting system would/could look like, and then instead of using those ideas they base most, if not all, of the system on Neverwinter's (which isn't a true crafting system, IMO. The player isn't doing the work, (s)he's having someone else do the work.) So, while the current design document doesn't include a system where players can pick and choose mods for items, it could have and should have, since I know those ideas have been brought up numerous times in the crafting discussions....
1) As previously mentioned the current conversion mechanism is horrible. Trying to trade in 30 or 40 materials was bad enough for a test, doing that for a conversion to a live system with thousands of samples would be unbearable.
2) What's the point of the quick finish (aka pay dilithium) button on the crafting interface? I just tried making basic components and they were done in 10 seconds so paying for them or having the option too seems pointless on the quick missions and rather expensive for the longer projects (but I guess some people will want now sort of thing).
3) The outcomes text looks to need a little refinement, the text size gets larger as you go Crit Success, Success, Failure, Disaster with the Crit Success text size being a little on the small size in my opinion.
4) Doff selection, I like that doff's are auto-assigned and the selection seems to order list them. However I don't like not having the option to see success and crit criteria against doffs when you manually select them. Given the way some missions are build with success chance reducing crit chance I like to manually select doffs to maximise the crit and the new system makes this very difficult since you don't know what traits the doff's have and its not clear on what criteria the auto-select is using to select the doffs (maximised crit or maximised success)?
5) A number of Doff missions say that the reward is a special bridge officer when the cursor is held over the reward item icon rather that saying what the specific item or class rewarded is.
6) All the crafting and materials missions on defera still use the old crafting system. Presumably this is going to be updated to the new system or the unique crafting rewards somehow incorporated into the new system and the materials made tradable for new style materials?
7) The results and requirements boxes on the doff mission selection page isn't particularly user friendly. Depending on your doff window size some of the requirements/rewards are hidden from view (at least until you select the assignment) and the only way to see them is to stretch the window horizontally so that the boxes become fully visible.
8) Indication of whether R&D projects have crited or not would be nice (only way I found was by observing the rewards).
9) A school progress counter would be useful that give you a visible numerical progress update rather than just a bar.
10) Not sure whether this is down to the crafting system, but crafted a couple of low tier beam tactical consoles (Phaser and something else - tribble just went down so can't confirm) and they don't give a grade number on the console icon.
STOWiki admin.
Look at the pretty mushroom grow
also, we need to either add options to choose the modifiers or reduce/eliminate the dilithium costs after all, who would pay 20k dilithium for random items when they can pay 25k for fleet level stuff and rep items?
leveling the crafting needs to be quicker and not require a long [over 30 days grind] for each level.
May I suggest a slider?
It takes too many clicks; this takes away from game play, plus adds to mouse finger pain.
Thanks for your consideration!
even if you would set my crafting skill to max right away for completing the original 3-branch crafting system, there is just not enough alcohol in the world to make me so drunk that I would pay dilithium for an item with randomized modifiers I have to wait an hour for if I can buy from a reputation or fleet store.
Kind regards
K'Tar
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
I want to invest into a system that allows me to create the items that I want to create. I know it's an early build, but if this is what you intend for crafting to be, I feel it to be a waste of time.
Also, remove the 5 second component crafting assignments. They are pointless, tedious, and time consuming. Allow us to acquire these components directly by trading in what raw materials we have.
If you haven't gone onto Tribble and observed things first hand (or at least second hand from a video), you are not providing feedback. You are providing commentary that will get in the way of the Devs gathering and providing feedback.
Please test the new stuff on Tribble, then come back and post.
~Bluegeek
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
1.) Got to play around with it (finally) and with all of these conversion stores... perhaps you need to spend some/alot of time actually developing a conversion UI. Drag a whatever in, it shows what you get, click accept and boom, done. No more stores with fifty currency types. If you can't convert an item, it doesn't do anything.
2.) I'll reiterate this. Pick one. Either have the random stupidness (I know that is such a wonderful helpful term, but it really does feel like random stupidness) or charge us dilithium. One or the other. If you have to delay the whole thing by three months to take a step back and re-think/re-design, I'm fine with that. If it goes live like this, I probably won't invest much time in it.
3.) Much faster... To me maxing all 7 of the crafting branches should take as long as 1 reputation (about a month).