Really? In the movie or in game? Could also be flip of the coin with what genetic traits they get, some get to keep their fur and others may not. IDIC.
What the vulcans never mention is that most of the combinations... don't actually work.
My impression was that caitians were not among the races resulting from seeding by the preservers, since they look radically different than the ones I know were. Does anyone know if this is correct?
As generally understood by the United Federation of Planets, a humanoid is an intelligent, bilaterally symmetrical, bipedal lifeform in possession of an upright posture, two arms, two legs, hands, feet, one thorax, a neck, and a head with a brain located in it.
Which fits a Caitian.
And, as stated on screen..."All humanoid life has a similar genetic pattern." Which fits with the whole Preservers angle. So yes, they probably did seed Cait.
Radically different, however, would be Tholian. They're non-humanoid, and were most definately not seeded by the Preservers
JJ made the gorns into some hive minded invaders from another galaxy.
The game isn't canon.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
What the vulcans never mention is that most of the combinations... don't actually work.
My impression was that caitians were not among the races resulting from seeding by the preservers, since they look radically different than the ones I know were. Does anyone know if this is correct?
Yeah, What Baelog said, but to add to that...
Only a handful of races are confirmed in canon as having been seeded by the Preservers, Humans, Klingons, Romulans/Vulcans, and Cardassians. Which is a pretty significant variety of races. now if we add game canon.... the Breen and Deferi go on the list and I'm pretty sure the Breen are less like humans than Caitians are....
What the vulcans never mention is that most of the combinations... don't actually work.
My impression was that caitians were not among the races resulting from seeding by the preservers, since they look radically different than the ones I know were. Does anyone know if this is correct?
I disagree. Caitians are Felinoids yes, but if we accept that the Preserver's control of genetics is capable enough to direct thousands of species evolution to a generally uniform endpoint then we can also accept that would develop diversity as it plays out.
Felines are still mammals. Can we actually classify the First Humanoids as specifically primate?
Cardassians for lack of any better description are humanoids evolved from cobras.
Earth alone gave rise to TWO generally humanoid species from different orders of animals, Saurian/Avians and Primates, Voth and Humans.
And if you want to see the First Humanoids work gone horribly right, look no further than the Xindi, from a planet that created sapient lifeforms from an unprecedented FIVE orders.
Keep in mind that the First Humanoids look as much like Founders as they do humans, Salome Jens not withstanding.
As generally understood by the United Federation of Planets, a humanoid is an intelligent, bilaterally symmetrical, bipedal lifeform in possession of an upright posture, two arms, two legs, hands, feet, one thorax, a neck, and a head with a brain located in it.
Which fits a Caitian.
And, as stated on screen..."All humanoid life has a similar genetic pattern." Which fits with the whole Preservers angle. So yes, they probably did seed Cait.
Radically different, however, would be Tholian. They're non-humanoid, and were most definately not seeded by the Preservers
Indeed, if the First Humanoid DNA evolved to sapient bipedal status in a mammal there's no need to say it has to be an ape. Technically via human conceit and the need to be specific, Caitians and Ferasans would be Felinoids, which isn't a disqualification from them also being humanoid, since Vulcans, Romulans, and Mintakans are all considered Vulcanoids, and are certainly Humanoid.
Because the movie crew was allowed to make species look how they deemed fit.
Part of JJ's whole thing was how he wanted to break away from the established canon so he wouldn't have be bound by it. Which is like saying I want to write a Story about the United States of America and ignore the Revolutionary War.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Indeed, if the First Humanoid DNA evolved to sapient bipedal status in a mammal there's no need to say it has to be an ape. Technically via human conceit and the need to be specific, Caitians and Ferasans would be Felinoids, which isn't a disqualification from them also being humanoid, since Vulcans, Romulans, and Mintakans are all considered Vulcanoids, and are certainly Humanoid.
Which actually supports my supposition: humans, vulcans, klingons, bajorans, tellarites, andorians, and even those reptilian cardassians all look very similar despite their different origins. Heck, cardassians can be modified to look almost exactly like humans or bajorans.
Caitians don't look like any of the others aside from walking upright and having two arms, two legs, and a head in the right proportions. Neither do the gorn, or Saurians.
Which actually supports my supposition: humans, vulcans, klingons, bajorans, tellarites, andorians, and even those reptilian cardassians all look very similar despite their different origins. Heck, cardassians can be modified to look almost exactly like humans or bajorans.
Caitians don't look like any of the others aside from walking upright and having two arms, two legs, and a head in the right proportions. Neither do the gorn, or Saurians.
Or does it? Aside from having fur, Caitians aren't much different from those. Especially when you consider the biochemical differences between those races.
Which actually supports my supposition: humans, vulcans, klingons, bajorans, tellarites, andorians, and even those reptilian cardassians all look very similar despite their different origins. Heck, cardassians can be modified to look almost exactly like humans or bajorans.
Caitians don't look like any of the others aside from walking upright and having two arms, two legs, and a head in the right proportions. Neither do the gorn, or Saurians.
On the other hand the Caitians resemble Earth felines, in other words a species common to our own eco-system. Sehlats on Vulcan as well.
I can't imagine that the First Humanoid's genetic planning was hyper precise enough to just breed humanoids, it would be easier for them to create genetic codes that would spawn ecosystems favorable to the rise of humanoid life in a variety of forms.
I don't think can be easily modified into another species should be the determining factor of whether a species qualifies as humanoid.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Actually... half what he said is froma tie-in game that wasn't done by JJ...
that and Khan's status as a Sikh was never canon....
And the original was Mexican.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I don't believe that all of the galaxy's lifeforms - which so happen to have two arms and two legs - are derivative of Preserver genetic meddling. That is just taking the role of the Preservers too far. IMO, the Caitians - therefore the Ferasan - came into existence without Preserver influence whatsoever.
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
Really it's a beautiful makeup and it would've been perfectly fine....if they had never anywhere mentioned that they were supposed to be Caitians. Ever. It's rather insulting to the concept. Even saying Anime Catgirls is an insult. I have nothing against catgirls, but these aren't even that. Catgirls at least have feline ears. You know, on top of their heads. :mad:
Or an actual Indian. They couldn't have picked a whiter, white dude.
In their defense, you really can't replicate Ricardo Montalban, it's like following up the 2008 Olympics opening ceremony. Going in a completely different direction isn't a bad idea.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
I don't believe that all of the galaxy's lifeforms - which so happen to have two arms and two legs - are derivative of Preserver genetic meddling. That is just taking the role of the Preservers too far. IMO, the Caitians - therefore the Ferasan - came into existence without Preserver influence whatsoever.
Let's be perfectly clear here. Cryptic got it dead wrong. The First Humanoids and the Preservers are two different species. We're talking about species whose actions are KNOWN to be apart on the scale of billions of years. The First Humanoids seeded their species something like two to four billion years ago and went extinct. The Preservers were active just a little over a thousand years ago. If the First Humanoids were to have survived long enough to be the Preservers then there would be no need for the puzzle, they could just reveal themselves.
I'm not opposed to the Caitians and Ferasans being humanoid in arrangement by convergent evolution though, but I would also like to point out that like most of the other species we call Humanoid and the First Humanoids themselves, Caitians are mammals.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Let's be perfectly clear here. Cryptic got it dead wrong. The First Humanoids and the Preservers are two different species. We're talking about species whose actions are KNOWN to be apart on the scale of billions of years. The First Humanoids seeded their species something like two to four billion years ago and went extinct. The Preservers were active just a little over a thousand years ago. If the First Humanoids were to have survived long enough to be the Preservers then there would be no need for the puzzle, they could just reveal themselves.
I'm not opposed to the Caitians and Ferasans being humanoid in arrangement by convergent evolution though, but I would also like to point out that like most of the other species we call Humanoid and the First Humanoids themselves, Caitians are mammals.
I know we are so far off-topic that it's not even funny. :eek:
I understand your distaste for how Cryptic handled it. As the connection was never specified in an episode or film. However, Ron Moore - who co-wrote, The Chase - did suggest the possibility. He just chose to not formalize it in the script. This is knowledge that I'm sure the game's writer's are aware of and chose to run with it. So blame Ron for permitting himself to be quoted on the subject.
That said, I don't equate Felinoid species with a Humanoid species. And since mammalian descriptions are applied to Humanoid species, I don't think applying it a Felinoid makes a great deal of sense. It may be accurate, from a Humanoid point of view, that the Felinoid displays mammalian characteristics. But isn't in and of itself a mammal. And while I'm sure there is some slash fiction out there with Caitian/Human offspring, I wouldn't have chosen to write it. Just sayin'.
Back on topic, I don't have any issue with Alien Gen offering a version of tails to design into other species. Be they Humanoid or Felinoid. Permitting the tails are original art and not copy/paste from the Caitian/Ferasan.
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
Well honestly it doesn't actually matter that much, and is completely irrelevant to the thread anyway, but since I love explaining my POV on arbitrary character race changes, I'm going to take this opportunity to do exactly that.
So, race changes. Why not, right? There's no reason Peter Parker couldn't have been black, for instance. Why can't a black kid be awkward, have dead parents, live with his aunt, have his uncle get shot, be a shy genius turned wise-cracking troll superhero, etc? There's almost no reason.
But there is one reason - Peter Parker can't be black because he's white.
The character of Peter Parker was written and established as a young white male. Making him black all of the sudden would be ridiculous. Imagine if between seasons 6 and 7 of TNG, Riker turned into an Asian dude. Or if Data's cat was suddenly female, or an iguana (wait...). Or if the Enterprise turned into a Battlestar.
You don't just change something that already exists because there's not really a reason it couldn't be something else. It's dumb and jarring and doesn't add anything to anything.
Well honestly it doesn't actually matter that much, and is completely irrelevant to the thread anyway, but since I love explaining my POV on arbitrary character race changes, I'm going to take this opportunity to do exactly that.
So, race changes. Why not, right? There's no reason Peter Parker couldn't have been black, for instance. Why can't a black kid be awkward, have dead parents, live with his aunt, have his uncle get shot, be a shy genius turned wise-cracking troll superhero, etc? There's almost no reason.
But there is one reason - Peter Parker can't be black because he's white.
The character of Peter Parker was written and established as a young white male. Making him black all of the sudden would be ridiculous. Imagine if between seasons 6 and 7 of TNG, Riker turned into an Asian dude. Or if Data's cat was suddenly female, or an iguana (wait...). Or if the Enterprise turned into a Battlestar.
You don't just change something that already exists because there's not really a reason it couldn't be something else. It's dumb and jarring and doesn't add anything to anything.
Yes, that is true for many major characters in the popular franchises today. However, one thing we are dealing with here is alternate universes which can defy anything the original had.
Comments
My impression was that caitians were not among the races resulting from seeding by the preservers, since they look radically different than the ones I know were. Does anyone know if this is correct?
As generally understood by the United Federation of Planets, a humanoid is an intelligent, bilaterally symmetrical, bipedal lifeform in possession of an upright posture, two arms, two legs, hands, feet, one thorax, a neck, and a head with a brain located in it.
Which fits a Caitian.
And, as stated on screen..."All humanoid life has a similar genetic pattern." Which fits with the whole Preservers angle. So yes, they probably did seed Cait.
Radically different, however, would be Tholian. They're non-humanoid, and were most definately not seeded by the Preservers
It doesn't need to be, the Kliongons still look like Klingons, the Vulcans still look like Vulcans, why would the Caitians not look like Caitians?
The game isn't canon.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Only a handful of races are confirmed in canon as having been seeded by the Preservers, Humans, Klingons, Romulans/Vulcans, and Cardassians. Which is a pretty significant variety of races. now if we add game canon.... the Breen and Deferi go on the list and I'm pretty sure the Breen are less like humans than Caitians are....
My character Tsin'xing
Because the movie crew was allowed to make species look how they deemed fit.
I disagree. Caitians are Felinoids yes, but if we accept that the Preserver's control of genetics is capable enough to direct thousands of species evolution to a generally uniform endpoint then we can also accept that would develop diversity as it plays out.
Felines are still mammals. Can we actually classify the First Humanoids as specifically primate?
Cardassians for lack of any better description are humanoids evolved from cobras.
Earth alone gave rise to TWO generally humanoid species from different orders of animals, Saurian/Avians and Primates, Voth and Humans.
And if you want to see the First Humanoids work gone horribly right, look no further than the Xindi, from a planet that created sapient lifeforms from an unprecedented FIVE orders.
Keep in mind that the First Humanoids look as much like Founders as they do humans, Salome Jens not withstanding. Indeed, if the First Humanoid DNA evolved to sapient bipedal status in a mammal there's no need to say it has to be an ape. Technically via human conceit and the need to be specific, Caitians and Ferasans would be Felinoids, which isn't a disqualification from them also being humanoid, since Vulcans, Romulans, and Mintakans are all considered Vulcanoids, and are certainly Humanoid.
Part of JJ's whole thing was how he wanted to break away from the established canon so he wouldn't have be bound by it. Which is like saying I want to write a Story about the United States of America and ignore the Revolutionary War.
Caitians don't look like any of the others aside from walking upright and having two arms, two legs, and a head in the right proportions. Neither do the gorn, or Saurians.
My character Tsin'xing
On the other hand the Caitians resemble Earth felines, in other words a species common to our own eco-system. Sehlats on Vulcan as well.
I can't imagine that the First Humanoid's genetic planning was hyper precise enough to just breed humanoids, it would be easier for them to create genetic codes that would spawn ecosystems favorable to the rise of humanoid life in a variety of forms.
I don't think can be easily modified into another species should be the determining factor of whether a species qualifies as humanoid.
My character Tsin'xing
Or if some dudes obsessed with anime cat-girls got their hands on Trek.
Except that isn't what Selhats are supposed to look like.
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/Rab4ZknoLq0/maxresdefault.jpg A better look at their makeup
So yeah, anime-style catgirls.
So, in this alternate timeline/reality/last neurons of a dead man, we have...
Catgirls instead of Caitians.
The Gorn are from a different galaxy and are hive-minded.
Mudd is a woman.
Khan is so white he's British instead of possibly being mistaken for a Sikh.
Well, at least the Deltans are still bald humanoids... http://scifanatic.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/baldies.jpg
And suddenly I hate JJ even more.
The make-up is even worse than I thought.
that and Khan's status as a Sikh was never canon....
My character Tsin'xing
And the original was Mexican.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
They could have at least gotten a Latin actor for the part instead of Bellatrix Cumblebunch.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Or an actual Indian. They couldn't have picked a whiter, white dude.
Seeing that just demonstrates how lazy that was.
At least use the live action version.
Filmation did some truly excellent cartoons, but their art style does not hold up well.
I understand that it's a sabretooth bear for lack of a better term. But it does have distinctly feline traits.
In their defense, you really can't replicate Ricardo Montalban, it's like following up the 2008 Olympics opening ceremony. Going in a completely different direction isn't a bad idea.
Let's be perfectly clear here. Cryptic got it dead wrong. The First Humanoids and the Preservers are two different species. We're talking about species whose actions are KNOWN to be apart on the scale of billions of years. The First Humanoids seeded their species something like two to four billion years ago and went extinct. The Preservers were active just a little over a thousand years ago. If the First Humanoids were to have survived long enough to be the Preservers then there would be no need for the puzzle, they could just reveal themselves.
I'm not opposed to the Caitians and Ferasans being humanoid in arrangement by convergent evolution though, but I would also like to point out that like most of the other species we call Humanoid and the First Humanoids themselves, Caitians are mammals.
Because arbitrarily changing the race of an established character is stupid.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Still not seeing how it really matters.
I know we are so far off-topic that it's not even funny. :eek:
I understand your distaste for how Cryptic handled it. As the connection was never specified in an episode or film. However, Ron Moore - who co-wrote, The Chase - did suggest the possibility. He just chose to not formalize it in the script. This is knowledge that I'm sure the game's writer's are aware of and chose to run with it. So blame Ron for permitting himself to be quoted on the subject.
That said, I don't equate Felinoid species with a Humanoid species. And since mammalian descriptions are applied to Humanoid species, I don't think applying it a Felinoid makes a great deal of sense. It may be accurate, from a Humanoid point of view, that the Felinoid displays mammalian characteristics. But isn't in and of itself a mammal. And while I'm sure there is some slash fiction out there with Caitian/Human offspring, I wouldn't have chosen to write it. Just sayin'.
Back on topic, I don't have any issue with Alien Gen offering a version of tails to design into other species. Be they Humanoid or Felinoid. Permitting the tails are original art and not copy/paste from the Caitian/Ferasan.
Well honestly it doesn't actually matter that much, and is completely irrelevant to the thread anyway, but since I love explaining my POV on arbitrary character race changes, I'm going to take this opportunity to do exactly that.
So, race changes. Why not, right? There's no reason Peter Parker couldn't have been black, for instance. Why can't a black kid be awkward, have dead parents, live with his aunt, have his uncle get shot, be a shy genius turned wise-cracking troll superhero, etc? There's almost no reason.
But there is one reason - Peter Parker can't be black because he's white.
The character of Peter Parker was written and established as a young white male. Making him black all of the sudden would be ridiculous. Imagine if between seasons 6 and 7 of TNG, Riker turned into an Asian dude. Or if Data's cat was suddenly female, or an iguana (wait...). Or if the Enterprise turned into a Battlestar.
You don't just change something that already exists because there's not really a reason it couldn't be something else. It's dumb and jarring and doesn't add anything to anything.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
You know what, I aint even mad over this.
Yes, that is true for many major characters in the popular franchises today. However, one thing we are dealing with here is alternate universes which can defy anything the original had.