To extrapolate a bit; For me, for the artists that work on this game (any game really), we spend months working on a painting. We put our heart and soul into the painting. We try to make everything as good as we can possibly make it. We put it in a gallery, we hang it on the wall, we light it just right. And on opening night, everyone rushes into the room, and starts inspecting the bench sitting in front of the painting. Then, if/when we remove the bench, to try and focus people's attentions on the painting that was meant to be the focal point in the first place, everyone complains about how much they love that bench, and how we've ruined the gallery by removing the bench.
I hope you can understand how depressing and frustrating that can be.
You guys say it's flattery, and that's appreciated, but from my side of things, it's a different story.
(Also from the above quoted Reddit thread)
You have a very solid point there, but consider that there's nothing preventing people from liking both the painting and the bench, although in this case I'd say that the shuttlebay is more like... the frame of the painting. It had less effort put into it because it wasn't something that people were going to focus on- rather, it was something they'd see while looking at the real painting- but people should be welcome to like the frame *and* the painting, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that the painting is worthless and all we should have is the frame.
Also a consideration is that Star Trek Online has a serious lack of player accessible shuttle bays. There's only one shuttlebay in the entire game that can be accessed outside of missions, and that's the romulan embassy. There are no ship shuttlebays, for obvious reasons, there are no station shuttlebays, no starbase shuttlebays, no freighter shuttlebays, no planetside shuttlebays except the romulan embassy.
There are however a number of those that are partially completed for various reasons that are not hooked up or accessible, and to a lot of players, finding ways into those spaces to go explore them is something that seems to attract a lot of attention.
I imagine some of it is just getting to where other people can't go, and some of it is likely a matter of people just really liking shuttlebays.
I mean there are other places you can go on the new ESD to get outside the map, there were other places on SFA back when you could do that- but everyone wanted, talked about, and did their best to get into the shuttlebay.
Also, the shuttlebay on ESD has the most closely viewable animation, in parts, so that's something people like too. I've been down to the other end of it, and obviously it's not a finished space nor meant to be. But it is something that has a certain attraction to it for players, and that in no way diminishes the respect or enjoyment we have of the rest of the station and all the other work you guys have done.
I think the best way to describe it is... If you've ever watched the Animatrix, there's this one short where some kids find an abandoned house with a glitch in the matrix that basically turns off gravity in places, and they're all having fun and ****. And then a bunch of agents in hazmat suits storm the place one day, block it off, and 'process it', and when the kids come back, it's just a normal house interior. The magic is gone.
The same sort of thing happens with cordened off spaces in STO and other games, particularly if it's something not everyone knows how to get into, and is a fun place to be. That exclusivity and uniqueness of the space is really attractive, but when the space is 'fixed' and blocked off for access, the way it was 'meant' to be, that magic of experience goes away.
Players will always try to find places that they can get to that other players may not easily be able to get to, and they will always lament when those places are either opened up to everyone, or blocked off- because in either case they are losing a sort of magic that attracted them to it in the first place. Unfortunately there's not a lot that can be done about that.
You guys say it's flattery, and that's appreciated, but from my side of things, it's a different story.
Yeah you are right mate, it is flattery but we have to take into account your side. i want to say STo is the best and most creative MMO's I have ever played. I love every minute of it. Long may it last.
I apologize if any words i said offended in any way, none was ever meant.
I'm an artist myself, i paint and draw and design but for my own enjoyment (although I am film trained but I never pursued it.) So I know how passionate you must feel towards your work.
Never fear Taco, your art and that of your fellow STo develpers is appreciated. Thank you.
Monkey see, Monkey do. Monkey flings Feathered Monkey poo...
I think the best way to describe it is... If you've ever watched the Animatrix, there's this one short where some kids find an abandoned house with a glitch in the matrix that basically turns off gravity in places, and they're all having fun and ****. And then a bunch of agents in hazmat suits storm the place one day, block it off, and 'process it', and when the kids come back, it's just a normal house interior. The magic is gone.
Wow, you so nailed it with that analogy. I enjoy immersion but I also enjoy the little snippets of magic that leak through. Exploring the shuttle bay was very much like that. I knew I was seeing the cracks in the geometry, but being in that lovely space, and learning the rules of this accidental space, occupied me for quite a few hours.
I will miss it, but at least I got a few snapshots to remind me of a past magical moment.
I see both sides of the story. I can see how the shuttlebay has no clear indication you're not supposed to go down there and therefore players are under the impression they should be able to go down there -- and try to find ways to do so.
At the same time, I know exactly what it's like to work very long and hard over a very sincere thought or idea and present it to others as a gift -- only to have it torn apart and told that it sucks and you suck and you should go diaf.
It's one of the reasons I'm hesitant to publish any Foundry missions.
A Disney artist put their talent and effort into the cinematic poster for The Little Mermaid, but all people like to point out is the phallic references either intentionally or unintentionally snuck in there.
Norman Rockwell painted a guy with a third leg and did not notice it until long after publication, and was extremely embarassed whenever it was pointed out.
Neil deGrasse Tyson is one of the smartest men alive, and has a great video of him talking about how much of a genius Isaac Newton was -- and he gets irritated that a still from that video has him saying, "Look out, we got a badass here!"
He humorously states that throughout his entire life he wants to expose people to the wonders of science, but says that in a thousand years when people dig up his life he's just going to be remembered as the "We got a badass here!" meme.
So where do I stand? I honestly have to go with Tacofangs on this. It's Cryptic's artwork. You could make a reasonable argument that there wasn't a lot of notification that the shuttlebay was not meant to be accessed, and thus quietly implied looking for a way to do so.
But in the end, I think he's rightfully irritated that people are criticising the entire work for the shuttlebay. For something that was obviously unintentional. That part of ESD was very obviously not meant to be accessed, and to criticise it based on a bug (I.E. something not intentional) is unfair to the artists.
Judge ESD (and the shuttlebay) for what it is, for how the artists present it to us. Not for what it is not, and was not intended to be.
I am irked that some players will ignore the rest of something we spent months working on, and instead spend their time getting to places we didn't want them to. I hate that there is a glitch in the code that lets you through, and that I have very little I can do about that. And honestly, the more people flaunt it, the more they say "I know how to get in and you can't stop me." the more I want to seal the whole thing off.
I'm not with the chorus trying to get you to open the area up, or trying to tell you how easy it would be.
All I'll say is this: some of us are explorers. Maybe the ones that would be joining Starfleet if this were the future and Starfleet actually existed.
It's not a "rubbing your nose in it" attitude for the vast majority of us that I'm aware of; it's a "let's see what we can do", "what's over that hill?", "Can I figure out a way to do this?" attitude.
It's the same thing that led us to climb on the lights above the Exchange in the old ESD. It's what drove us to "jump-stuck" glitch our way on top of the huge pile of crates in the ESD before that, and jump across to the boxes hanging from the ceiling in the Requisitions area. It's what motivated us to glitch our way outside of all the previous ESD incarnations. It's what inspired us to find a way into the "penthouse" above Club 47. It's what drove some of us to try to get to the old shipyard in the previous ESD because once we got outside, we could see it still sitting down there, tantalizingly within reach.
Not trying to make a funny here, but it's "to go where no one has gone before". Or "to go where no one thinks we can go".
Just because we're explorers, though, DOESN'T mean we're ignoring all the hard work you put in on the whole new beautiful ESD. One of my best in-game friends is someone whose name a lot of people would probably recognize, at least in passing, if for no other reason than she's answered a LOT of questions in ESD zonechat ever since launch, just because. And she's one of the biggest explorers of all of us.
And I can tell you this: her and I and several others were literally crawling all over the new ESD as soon as it was up on Holodeck, and if you'd had access to our channel that day, you would have ended up red with embarrassment at all the compliments we were hurling at you and he whole team that designed and created it. We weren't trying to break it...we were getting an up-close look at everything.
Yeah, we figured out how to get into the shuttlebay. But we were also marveling at the little people in the animated "corridors" up at the top of the area above the hangar. We were admiring the shuttles flying through the shuttlebay. We were playing with, and quite frankly enjoying the hell out of, the new changing booths in the Tailor area. We were trying out every sitting area in both mezzanine lounges. We were marveling that Quinn finally has a room with a view, and noted with awe the Odyssey and other ships flying around outside.
In short, our entire several-hour romp in which we got absolutely nothing useful done was a visual love-letter to all of you guys for the gift you'd given all of us.
And I know she appreciates her new perch at the top of one of the trees, which I can only assume is something else unintended. Took her a couple hours to get the hang of climbing up there though. (Jumping down from the mezzanine is "cheating" according to her.)
So please, although there are some who are "thumbing their noses at authority", and some who have been -- and will probably continue to be -- quite snotty about the entitlement angle or the "you can't stop us" angle, that's not us. And I don't think it's even the majority.
We're admiring what you've done.
So, if (as I assume) the decision stands to keep the shuttlebay off-limits, I understand and respect that. But know that some of us will likely continue trying to find ways into it. And most of us that do so are only doing what comes naturally: exploring. Seeing what's behind that thing we can't see behind.
TL;DR: Tacofangs doesn't need a TL;DR, so I'm not writing one. Read, ya lazy bastidges.
The thing is you can bring a horse to water but you cant make it drink. You worked hard on ESD and poured your hearts into it. You and your team made it yours .... BANG the problem !
It has too much of you all in it its not, well trek. The shuttle bay however has trek stamped all over it. Yes your ESD was a grand design but that's the problem its like an Abu Dabi shopping mall, it in no way reminds me of trek, whereas the shuttle bay does.
And the detail down there is awesome I was one of the privileged few to explore down there and was blown away by some of the detail !
The day you forced us to look at your painting was a dark day !
I take no offense at any of this. As I said in the first post I quoted, I absolutely understand the appeal/draw/interest in getting into those otherwise inaccessible areas. I appreciate the desire to explore those areas, and again, I would have no problem with that, if you were essentially invisible while doing so. However, because you are visible, you are also acting as a draw to others that can see you out there, which causes the glitch to get exploited more and more. When people start advertising the glitch, and throwing dance parties on top of runabouts, it's no longer harmless.
I don't like blocking off areas, unless they become a problem. The shuttlebay was a problem.
I take no offense at any of this. As I said in the first post I quoted, I absolutely understand the appeal/draw/interest in getting into those otherwise inaccessible areas. I appreciate the desire to explore those areas, and again, I would have no problem with that, if you were essentially invisible while doing so. However, because you are visible, you are also acting as a draw to others that can see you out there, which causes the glitch to get exploited more and more. When people start advertising the glitch, and throwing dance parties on top of runabouts, it's no longer harmless.
I don't like blocking off areas, unless they become a problem. The shuttlebay was a problem.
The solution is to release the map as a Foundry map. People can explore or make missions in impossible to reach areas or explore it in the Foundry but it has no social consequence.
ESD and the New Tutorial Academy would be ideal candidates for the Foundry. As would new Risa (heck, give us a jetpacks enabled volume effect), Romulan command, the Romulan tutorial colony, and a number of other maps.
I haven't done much on the Foundry in some time because most of the more interesting possibilities seem walled off and the costumes are not only limited but broken.
But having the map in the Foundry would be the perfect "vent" for this impulse.
I take no offense at any of this. As I said in the first post I quoted, I absolutely understand the appeal/draw/interest in getting into those otherwise inaccessible areas. I appreciate the desire to explore those areas, and again, I would have no problem with that, if you were essentially invisible while doing so. However, because you are visible, you are also acting as a draw to others that can see you out there, which causes the glitch to get exploited more and more. When people start advertising the glitch, and throwing dance parties on top of runabouts, it's no longer harmless.
I don't like blocking off areas, unless they become a problem. The shuttlebay was a problem.
So, the problem is that people were able to see you? I guess that must be the reason why the problem has actually not been fixed? I can still get into the shuttlebay without any problems at all. All that's there now is a layer that beams you back to the transporters once you touch the ground. So as a matter of fact.... I can still get stuck there
As for the rest. I do understand your reasoning. It also reminds me a lot of some RP'ers who want people to play the way they tell them to.
I take no offense at any of this. As I said in the first post I quoted, I absolutely understand the appeal/draw/interest in getting into those otherwise inaccessible areas. I appreciate the desire to explore those areas, and again, I would have no problem with that, if you were essentially invisible while doing so. However, because you are visible, you are also acting as a draw to others that can see you out there, which causes the glitch to get exploited more and more. When people start advertising the glitch, and throwing dance parties on top of runabouts, it's no longer harmless.
I don't like blocking off areas, unless they become a problem. The shuttlebay was a problem.
You could have set the shuttle bay doors to spontaneously open every 5 minutes and jettison everybody inside the shuttlebay out into space where they immediately die and need to respawn.
I take no offense at any of this. As I said in the first post I quoted, I absolutely understand the appeal/draw/interest in getting into those otherwise inaccessible areas. I appreciate the desire to explore those areas, and again, I would have no problem with that, if you were essentially invisible while doing so. However, because you are visible, you are also acting as a draw to others that can see you out there, which causes the glitch to get exploited more and more. When people start advertising the glitch, and throwing dance parties on top of runabouts, it's no longer harmless.
I don't like blocking off areas, unless they become a problem. The shuttlebay was a problem.
Well this part I can certainly understand.
While it's a harmless exploit, people still should not advertise it... If people want to go there, they should be able to figure it out for themselves.
However: Could you PLEASE tell the security officer, that the "right" side of the door is not the proper place to warn me about transporting me back to the allowed area?
He is really evil.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Hey let's continue to poke a stick at the Dev that has worked many hours to bring us a much needed update to ESD. That sounds like a fantastic idea and I think we should keep doing it after said Dev has expressed his frustrations honestly and openly.
Well I rarely agree with you, so I am happy that you make sense on this one...
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Hey let's continue to poke a stick at the Dev that has worked many hours to bring us a much needed update to ESD. That sounds like a fantastic idea and I think we should keep doing it after said Dev has expressed his frustrations honestly and openly.
Agreed. I think it's time to let sleeping tacos...um...do whatever tacos do when they sleep. (Gently leak hot sauce?)
We've expressed our views, and it was really cathartic to get my long blatherfest out there, and Taco has expressed his.
I can certainly understand the frustration with the very visible flaunting of the ability to get out there, and the need to close off a glitch that's getting to be a bit too famous. And I think he understands our need to explore and push the boundaries.
While I don't agree with closing off the shuttlebay, it sounds like Taco doesn't really either, but saw it as a necessity. Fair enough. We can move on, and hopefully can all be a bit more discreet about exploring the dark corners.
I take no offense at any of this. As I said in the first post I quoted, I absolutely understand the appeal/draw/interest in getting into those otherwise inaccessible areas. I appreciate the desire to explore those areas, and again, I would have no problem with that, if you were essentially invisible while doing so. However, because you are visible, you are also acting as a draw to others that can see you out there, which causes the glitch to get exploited more and more. When people start advertising the glitch, and throwing dance parties on top of runabouts, it's no longer harmless.
I don't like blocking off areas, unless they become a problem. The shuttlebay was a problem.
Not sure if it has "leaped out" to you Taco (as I've not followed the thread properly), but the interest in the shuttlebay compared to any other area you and your team has made - there is a major difference.
I've walked all over Qo'noS and seen that lower area below the exchange and wondered about it, I've seen the Reman area you mentioned in your first post, I've seen quite a few perspective based areas in game..... but nothing has captured the player bases imagination quite like your shuttle bay on ESD has.
I've even lost the odd 30 minutes in the middle of a mission, due to the urge to explore my surroundings and take in the view(s).... heck, even I took pictures of earth from outside of ESD on the test server.... I spent 20 minutes just taking in the view for myself... then another 15 minutes explaining to my wife why it was an amazing view !!!!
I know it gets really (REALLY REALLY REALLY) annoying, constantly explaining why we cannot make use of the shuttlebay... but I hope you and your team do understand just how much you've drawn us in to the game world with that update..... and if you boys and girls keep doing such high quality work.... this forum moaning for access to those areas will get worse - your own high standards are compelling us to want to explore those areas now :P
If I were Taco, i would put a Wall there and get rid of the shuttle bay, that way everyone wins, becasue you guys are like children who mommies told you no, but will keep asking till she gives in.
I know it gets really (REALLY REALLY REALLY) annoying, constantly explaining why we cannot make use of the shuttlebay... but I hope you and your team do understand just how much you've drawn us in to the game world with that update..... and if you boys and girls keep doing such high quality work.... this forum moaning for access to those areas will get worse - your own high standards are compelling us to want to explore those areas now :P
Tacofangs has stated ON many occasions the shuttlebay was always meant to be a vista area designed so that ESD would seem larger than it actually is. This means it was always supposed to be blocked off. Glitches happened and when it was unfinished the shuttlebay invisible walls were not in prompting people to go bananas when they couldn't get down there.
Long story short, you will not be able to access the shuttlebay by conventional means. Probably forever.
vistas are all very good if they are just two dimensional drawn images that look real but are not like skylines and such like at the star fleet academy but to create such a massive area that is a real three dimensional area that could be used if only by players for role play and such and then deny access to it is just stupid.
with 95% of the work done on the area it would not take much to open the area for players to use, come on devs don't be mean let us roam free and glory in the work you have put into creating this fine setting.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
I take no offense at any of this. As I said in the first post I quoted, I absolutely understand the appeal/draw/interest in getting into those otherwise inaccessible areas. I appreciate the desire to explore those areas, and again, I would have no problem with that, if you were essentially invisible while doing so. However, because you are visible, you are also acting as a draw to others that can see you out there, which causes the glitch to get exploited more and more. When people start advertising the glitch, and throwing dance parties on top of runabouts, it's no longer harmless.
I don't like blocking off areas, unless they become a problem. The shuttlebay was a problem.
Honestly, my solution would have only been slightly more complex:
1)Add a ramp.
2)Add some NPCs
3)Add some invisi-walls to the shuttle force-field doors
4)We all win.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
You guys say it's flattery, and that's appreciated, but from my side of things, it's a different story.
(Also from the above quoted Reddit thread)
Originally Posted by Me
To extrapolate a bit; For me, for the artists that work on this game (any game really), we spend months working on a painting. We put our heart and soul into the painting. We try to make everything as good as we can possibly make it. We put it in a gallery, we hang it on the wall, we light it just right. And on opening night, everyone rushes into the room, and starts inspecting the bench sitting in front of the painting. Then, if/when we remove the bench, to try and focus people's attentions on the painting that was meant to be the focal point in the first place, everyone complains about how much they love that bench, and how we've ruined the gallery by removing the bench.
I hope you can understand how depressing and frustrating that can be.
its interesting that you compare your work to a painting in a gallery, I then take it that holodeck is the gallery.
the trouble is that the shuttlebay is not a painting it is more like a large auditorium filled with fine statues, the only problem with statues is you need to get up close so you can inspect all the minute details.
the only problem is this auditorium is permanently closed to public so we can only peek at it through the doorway and we will never be able to fully appreciate your fine work , and I can attest after viewing it on tribble that apart from a couple of force fields and a access stairway it was fine as it was and sadly many players are denied the ability to enjoy it fully.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Hey let's continue to poke a stick at the Dev that has worked many hours to bring us a much needed update to ESD. That sounds like a fantastic idea and I think we should keep doing it after said Dev has expressed his frustrations honestly and openly.
Unless it escaped peoples notice that's his job.
His job is to provide us with content, if some of us dont like certain content and prefer other content regardless of what it is (100% of the player base) then that's each individuals opinion. I am sorry my opinion does not agree with others, but hey it is my opinion and it would seem a fair few others here. I am not going to feel bad because a dev is upset that some players prefer his crappy work over his masterpiece !
Maybe instead of being told what we SHOULD like, we could have a choice of what we actually like, or am I asking too much here ?
ESD certainly did need an update and it got it. Just because its all shiny and new does not mean we all have to like it, on the contrary all of us agree that the update is good. We just disagree on which parts are better and I do not see how that is a problem and why should we have to feel guilty in any way for that opinion.
Comments
(Also from the above quoted Reddit thread)
You have a very solid point there, but consider that there's nothing preventing people from liking both the painting and the bench, although in this case I'd say that the shuttlebay is more like... the frame of the painting. It had less effort put into it because it wasn't something that people were going to focus on- rather, it was something they'd see while looking at the real painting- but people should be welcome to like the frame *and* the painting, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that the painting is worthless and all we should have is the frame.
Also a consideration is that Star Trek Online has a serious lack of player accessible shuttle bays. There's only one shuttlebay in the entire game that can be accessed outside of missions, and that's the romulan embassy. There are no ship shuttlebays, for obvious reasons, there are no station shuttlebays, no starbase shuttlebays, no freighter shuttlebays, no planetside shuttlebays except the romulan embassy.
There are however a number of those that are partially completed for various reasons that are not hooked up or accessible, and to a lot of players, finding ways into those spaces to go explore them is something that seems to attract a lot of attention.
I imagine some of it is just getting to where other people can't go, and some of it is likely a matter of people just really liking shuttlebays.
I mean there are other places you can go on the new ESD to get outside the map, there were other places on SFA back when you could do that- but everyone wanted, talked about, and did their best to get into the shuttlebay.
Also, the shuttlebay on ESD has the most closely viewable animation, in parts, so that's something people like too. I've been down to the other end of it, and obviously it's not a finished space nor meant to be. But it is something that has a certain attraction to it for players, and that in no way diminishes the respect or enjoyment we have of the rest of the station and all the other work you guys have done.
I think the best way to describe it is... If you've ever watched the Animatrix, there's this one short where some kids find an abandoned house with a glitch in the matrix that basically turns off gravity in places, and they're all having fun and ****. And then a bunch of agents in hazmat suits storm the place one day, block it off, and 'process it', and when the kids come back, it's just a normal house interior. The magic is gone.
The same sort of thing happens with cordened off spaces in STO and other games, particularly if it's something not everyone knows how to get into, and is a fun place to be. That exclusivity and uniqueness of the space is really attractive, but when the space is 'fixed' and blocked off for access, the way it was 'meant' to be, that magic of experience goes away.
Players will always try to find places that they can get to that other players may not easily be able to get to, and they will always lament when those places are either opened up to everyone, or blocked off- because in either case they are losing a sort of magic that attracted them to it in the first place. Unfortunately there's not a lot that can be done about that.
Yeah you are right mate, it is flattery but we have to take into account your side. i want to say STo is the best and most creative MMO's I have ever played. I love every minute of it. Long may it last.
I apologize if any words i said offended in any way, none was ever meant.
I'm an artist myself, i paint and draw and design but for my own enjoyment (although I am film trained but I never pursued it.) So I know how passionate you must feel towards your work.
Never fear Taco, your art and that of your fellow STo develpers is appreciated. Thank you.
To be fair, it was a really nice bench.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
Defending The Galaxy By Breaking One Starfleet Regulation After The Next.
Wow, you so nailed it with that analogy. I enjoy immersion but I also enjoy the little snippets of magic that leak through. Exploring the shuttle bay was very much like that. I knew I was seeing the cracks in the geometry, but being in that lovely space, and learning the rules of this accidental space, occupied me for quite a few hours.
I will miss it, but at least I got a few snapshots to remind me of a past magical moment.
You don't make mistakes, Tacofangs.
I see both sides of the story. I can see how the shuttlebay has no clear indication you're not supposed to go down there and therefore players are under the impression they should be able to go down there -- and try to find ways to do so.
At the same time, I know exactly what it's like to work very long and hard over a very sincere thought or idea and present it to others as a gift -- only to have it torn apart and told that it sucks and you suck and you should go diaf.
It's one of the reasons I'm hesitant to publish any Foundry missions.
A Disney artist put their talent and effort into the cinematic poster for The Little Mermaid, but all people like to point out is the phallic references either intentionally or unintentionally snuck in there.
Norman Rockwell painted a guy with a third leg and did not notice it until long after publication, and was extremely embarassed whenever it was pointed out.
Neil deGrasse Tyson is one of the smartest men alive, and has a great video of him talking about how much of a genius Isaac Newton was -- and he gets irritated that a still from that video has him saying, "Look out, we got a badass here!"
He humorously states that throughout his entire life he wants to expose people to the wonders of science, but says that in a thousand years when people dig up his life he's just going to be remembered as the "We got a badass here!" meme.
So where do I stand? I honestly have to go with Tacofangs on this. It's Cryptic's artwork. You could make a reasonable argument that there wasn't a lot of notification that the shuttlebay was not meant to be accessed, and thus quietly implied looking for a way to do so.
But in the end, I think he's rightfully irritated that people are criticising the entire work for the shuttlebay. For something that was obviously unintentional. That part of ESD was very obviously not meant to be accessed, and to criticise it based on a bug (I.E. something not intentional) is unfair to the artists.
Judge ESD (and the shuttlebay) for what it is, for how the artists present it to us. Not for what it is not, and was not intended to be.
I'm not with the chorus trying to get you to open the area up, or trying to tell you how easy it would be.
All I'll say is this: some of us are explorers. Maybe the ones that would be joining Starfleet if this were the future and Starfleet actually existed.
It's not a "rubbing your nose in it" attitude for the vast majority of us that I'm aware of; it's a "let's see what we can do", "what's over that hill?", "Can I figure out a way to do this?" attitude.
It's the same thing that led us to climb on the lights above the Exchange in the old ESD. It's what drove us to "jump-stuck" glitch our way on top of the huge pile of crates in the ESD before that, and jump across to the boxes hanging from the ceiling in the Requisitions area. It's what motivated us to glitch our way outside of all the previous ESD incarnations. It's what inspired us to find a way into the "penthouse" above Club 47. It's what drove some of us to try to get to the old shipyard in the previous ESD because once we got outside, we could see it still sitting down there, tantalizingly within reach.
Not trying to make a funny here, but it's "to go where no one has gone before". Or "to go where no one thinks we can go".
Just because we're explorers, though, DOESN'T mean we're ignoring all the hard work you put in on the whole new beautiful ESD. One of my best in-game friends is someone whose name a lot of people would probably recognize, at least in passing, if for no other reason than she's answered a LOT of questions in ESD zonechat ever since launch, just because. And she's one of the biggest explorers of all of us.
And I can tell you this: her and I and several others were literally crawling all over the new ESD as soon as it was up on Holodeck, and if you'd had access to our channel that day, you would have ended up red with embarrassment at all the compliments we were hurling at you and he whole team that designed and created it. We weren't trying to break it...we were getting an up-close look at everything.
Yeah, we figured out how to get into the shuttlebay. But we were also marveling at the little people in the animated "corridors" up at the top of the area above the hangar. We were admiring the shuttles flying through the shuttlebay. We were playing with, and quite frankly enjoying the hell out of, the new changing booths in the Tailor area. We were trying out every sitting area in both mezzanine lounges. We were marveling that Quinn finally has a room with a view, and noted with awe the Odyssey and other ships flying around outside.
In short, our entire several-hour romp in which we got absolutely nothing useful done was a visual love-letter to all of you guys for the gift you'd given all of us.
And I know she appreciates her new perch at the top of one of the trees, which I can only assume is something else unintended. Took her a couple hours to get the hang of climbing up there though. (Jumping down from the mezzanine is "cheating" according to her.)
So please, although there are some who are "thumbing their noses at authority", and some who have been -- and will probably continue to be -- quite snotty about the entitlement angle or the "you can't stop us" angle, that's not us. And I don't think it's even the majority.
We're admiring what you've done.
So, if (as I assume) the decision stands to keep the shuttlebay off-limits, I understand and respect that. But know that some of us will likely continue trying to find ways into it. And most of us that do so are only doing what comes naturally: exploring. Seeing what's behind that thing we can't see behind.
TL;DR: Tacofangs doesn't need a TL;DR, so I'm not writing one. Read, ya lazy bastidges.
The thing is you can bring a horse to water but you cant make it drink. You worked hard on ESD and poured your hearts into it. You and your team made it yours .... BANG the problem !
It has too much of you all in it its not, well trek. The shuttle bay however has trek stamped all over it. Yes your ESD was a grand design but that's the problem its like an Abu Dabi shopping mall, it in no way reminds me of trek, whereas the shuttle bay does.
And the detail down there is awesome I was one of the privileged few to explore down there and was blown away by some of the detail !
The day you forced us to look at your painting was a dark day !
I take no offense at any of this. As I said in the first post I quoted, I absolutely understand the appeal/draw/interest in getting into those otherwise inaccessible areas. I appreciate the desire to explore those areas, and again, I would have no problem with that, if you were essentially invisible while doing so. However, because you are visible, you are also acting as a draw to others that can see you out there, which causes the glitch to get exploited more and more. When people start advertising the glitch, and throwing dance parties on top of runabouts, it's no longer harmless.
I don't like blocking off areas, unless they become a problem. The shuttlebay was a problem.
The solution is to release the map as a Foundry map. People can explore or make missions in impossible to reach areas or explore it in the Foundry but it has no social consequence.
ESD and the New Tutorial Academy would be ideal candidates for the Foundry. As would new Risa (heck, give us a jetpacks enabled volume effect), Romulan command, the Romulan tutorial colony, and a number of other maps.
I haven't done much on the Foundry in some time because most of the more interesting possibilities seem walled off and the costumes are not only limited but broken.
But having the map in the Foundry would be the perfect "vent" for this impulse.
So, the problem is that people were able to see you? I guess that must be the reason why the problem has actually not been fixed? I can still get into the shuttlebay without any problems at all. All that's there now is a layer that beams you back to the transporters once you touch the ground. So as a matter of fact.... I can still get stuck there
As for the rest. I do understand your reasoning. It also reminds me a lot of some RP'ers who want people to play the way they tell them to.
You could have set the shuttle bay doors to spontaneously open every 5 minutes and jettison everybody inside the shuttlebay out into space where they immediately die and need to respawn.
It'd be a self-correcting problem, and canon!
But seriously, I totally see your point.
Well this part I can certainly understand.
While it's a harmless exploit, people still should not advertise it... If people want to go there, they should be able to figure it out for themselves.
However: Could you PLEASE tell the security officer, that the "right" side of the door is not the proper place to warn me about transporting me back to the allowed area?
He is really evil.
Well I rarely agree with you, so I am happy that you make sense on this one...
We've expressed our views, and it was really cathartic to get my long blatherfest out there, and Taco has expressed his.
I can certainly understand the frustration with the very visible flaunting of the ability to get out there, and the need to close off a glitch that's getting to be a bit too famous. And I think he understands our need to explore and push the boundaries.
While I don't agree with closing off the shuttlebay, it sounds like Taco doesn't really either, but saw it as a necessity. Fair enough. We can move on, and hopefully can all be a bit more discreet about exploring the dark corners.
Not sure if it has "leaped out" to you Taco (as I've not followed the thread properly), but the interest in the shuttlebay compared to any other area you and your team has made - there is a major difference.
I've walked all over Qo'noS and seen that lower area below the exchange and wondered about it, I've seen the Reman area you mentioned in your first post, I've seen quite a few perspective based areas in game..... but nothing has captured the player bases imagination quite like your shuttle bay on ESD has.
I've even lost the odd 30 minutes in the middle of a mission, due to the urge to explore my surroundings and take in the view(s).... heck, even I took pictures of earth from outside of ESD on the test server.... I spent 20 minutes just taking in the view for myself... then another 15 minutes explaining to my wife why it was an amazing view !!!!
I know it gets really (REALLY REALLY REALLY) annoying, constantly explaining why we cannot make use of the shuttlebay... but I hope you and your team do understand just how much you've drawn us in to the game world with that update..... and if you boys and girls keep doing such high quality work.... this forum moaning for access to those areas will get worse - your own high standards are compelling us to want to explore those areas now :P
OOH! Sorry about that . . .
:::pulls out a wad of paper towels:::
Note to Self: Do crappier work.
:::shakes his taco:::
Kids these days. . . don't even know where these things come from . . .
vistas are all very good if they are just two dimensional drawn images that look real but are not like skylines and such like at the star fleet academy but to create such a massive area that is a real three dimensional area that could be used if only by players for role play and such and then deny access to it is just stupid.
with 95% of the work done on the area it would not take much to open the area for players to use, come on devs don't be mean let us roam free and glory in the work you have put into creating this fine setting.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Honestly, my solution would have only been slightly more complex:
1)Add a ramp.
2)Add some NPCs
3)Add some invisi-walls to the shuttle force-field doors
4)We all win.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
But in all seriousness, Taco has the map Midas touch, each new thing he brings out is hotter and hotter.
the trouble is that the shuttlebay is not a painting it is more like a large auditorium filled with fine statues, the only problem with statues is you need to get up close so you can inspect all the minute details.
the only problem is this auditorium is permanently closed to public so we can only peek at it through the doorway and we will never be able to fully appreciate your fine work , and I can attest after viewing it on tribble that apart from a couple of force fields and a access stairway it was fine as it was and sadly many players are denied the ability to enjoy it fully.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Noooooooooooooo
LOL
Unless it escaped peoples notice that's his job.
His job is to provide us with content, if some of us dont like certain content and prefer other content regardless of what it is (100% of the player base) then that's each individuals opinion. I am sorry my opinion does not agree with others, but hey it is my opinion and it would seem a fair few others here. I am not going to feel bad because a dev is upset that some players prefer his crappy work over his masterpiece !
Maybe instead of being told what we SHOULD like, we could have a choice of what we actually like, or am I asking too much here ?
ESD certainly did need an update and it got it. Just because its all shiny and new does not mean we all have to like it, on the contrary all of us agree that the update is good. We just disagree on which parts are better and I do not see how that is a problem and why should we have to feel guilty in any way for that opinion.