You mean the same Galaxy that with shield power to weapon put dozens of shots into a jemh'dar attack ship and didn't even get through the shields whilst the defiant with full shield power to shields regularly punches them out in one shot. That Gal. Sorry but your wrong.
Your trying to justify a position that isn't supported by the actual on screen evidence. Nowhere is the Galaxy (in the few direct comparisons we can make), ever shown to have the kind of firepower your claiming.
Equally compare the Enterprises late season performance against those two ferengi crewed BoP's. A few volleys and the enterprise has no shields, (even the yesterday's enterprise Ent D got punched out by 3 BoP pretty rapidly whilst doing only modest damage in return). During Sisko's Rescue of the Detapa council they take on 3 and come out ahead with 2 down and no mention of serious shield damage, and that's on top of eating a bunch of fire to the shields from a Vorcha. Something similar happens during the dominon war. When those remote powered orbital weapon platforms come online and start shredding stuff they punch out the lights federation ships completely, punch out the Gal's shields, (but the sheer excess non-critical system hull volume appears to keep it from being destroyed outright in the first volley), whilst the defiant eats hits to the shields and comes out with intact shields and no visible hull damage. The Defiant is clearly also much better shielded.
It quite obvious that Size has no real bearing on the effectiveness of starfleet vessels. Which is no surprise. As i pointed out the Gals have huge endurance, huge shuttlebays, huge cargo bays, huge crews, and huge science systems eating lots of space and power both. Most of it's mass and volume is dedicated to non-combat system. I have a few theories on the topic beyond the above on screen stuff as well, but their only loosely, (implied but never directly stated), supported on screen, but if you want to hear them i'll happily elaborate.
Watch out, my friend. These Galaxy fanboys will start whining about "it's the writers fault" or "plot armor", or every other excuse in the book to try to explain away the crappy performance of the Galaxy class. It is totally inconceivable to them that the Galaxy Class ship has been shown to have some serious flaws to it, both offensively and defensively. ("The Arsenal of Freedom", "Darmok", "Tin Man", "Rascals", "The Nth Degree", "Generations", "The Jem'Haddar").
As you correctly pointed out, the Odyssey was unable to destroy a SINGLE Jem'Hadar ship even after it has transferred shield power to the weapons AND with the assistance of two Runabouts. It just couldn't get the job done.
Strangely enough, the definition of "canon" to these Galaxy fanboys is "nothing that shows the Galaxy class in a bad light", which is why they'll talk proudly about an episode like "The Wounded", and stick their fingers in their ears chanting "La-La-La" when episodes like "Rascals", "Tin Man", "Generations", "The Jem'Hadar", etc., are brought up, and then try to run to the TNG Tech Manual in order to attempt to invalidate the canon information illustrating the Galaxy's crappy performance.
Unfortunately for the Galaxy fanboys, Cryptic/CBS has chosen to go with the "Rascals" and "The Jem'Hadar" interpretation of the capabilities of the Galaxy class in STO, as opposed to the one that they were hoping for. C'est la vie.
If I remember me correctly even Gul Dukat said that the Defiant is one of the most heavily armed warships of the quadrant so I would not call her a 3rd stringer.
While the Galaxy we have not really seen a lot of what she can or can't do during the Dominion War.
The best scene were tow Galaxy class starships against a Galor, while the damage wasn't to bad, a squad of Peregrine Fighters was able to do more damage in the same episode.
The Peregines destroyed nearly the entire top section of that Galor.
What does ducat know seriously. Compared to his galors any new fed ship is super scary. not like sisko is going to correct him, oh ducat actually my pimp hands not all that really, compared to something like a galaxy. Remember in that episode the wounded where a top of the line galor proved all but harmless to the enterprise? And a nebula class smoked one with a single torpedo spread when it's shields were down? Ya, those were good times ducat.
Anyway, show of force, against an apparition created by a god. They actually let the ship go all out, seeing as it's target was invincible. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_XbWq49vUM any fight a galaxy lost in the show, if it was allowed to defend it self like that, would have resulted in an instant win.
Also the damage it caused that Borg cube in q who, in 3 hits vaporizing more volume of it then the enterprise had volume herself
The shots fired at that galor utilized a tiny amount of the phaser array, those were not maximum firepower shots, but shots to disable. Probably because they did not want to blow it up at point blank range with themselves.
You mean the same Galaxy that with shield power to weapon put dozens of shots into a jemh'dar attack ship and didn't even get through the shields whilst the defiant with full shield power to shields regularly punches them out in one shot. That Gal. Sorry but your wrong.
Your trying to justify a position that isn't supported by the actual on screen evidence. Nowhere is the Galaxy (in the few direct comparisons we can make), ever shown to have the kind of firepower your claiming.
Equally compare the Enterprises late season performance against those two ferengi crewed BoP's. A few volleys and the enterprise has no shields, (even the yesterday's enterprise Ent D got punched out by 3 BoP pretty rapidly whilst doing only modest damage in return). During Sisko's Rescue of the Detapa council they take on 3 and come out ahead with 2 down and no mention of serious shield damage, and that's on top of eating a bunch of fire to the shields from a Vorcha. Something similar happens during the dominon war. When those remote powered orbital weapon platforms come online and start shredding stuff they punch out the lights federation ships completely, punch out the Gal's shields, (but the sheer excess non-critical system hull volume appears to keep it from being destroyed outright in the first volley), whilst the defiant eats hits to the shields and comes out with intact shields and no visible hull damage. The Defiant is clearly also much better shielded.
It quite obvious that Size has no real bearing on the effectiveness of starfleet vessels. Which is no surprise. As i pointed out the Gals have huge endurance, huge shuttlebays, huge cargo bays, huge crews, and huge science systems eating lots of space and power both. Most of it's mass and volume is dedicated to non-combat system. I have a few theories on the topic beyond the above on screen stuff as well, but their only loosely, (implied but never directly stated), supported on screen, but if you want to hear them i'll happily elaborate.
Whatever you say yoga, size totally maters not. A space pt boat is totally stronger then a big gun battleship. The battle the odyssey fought was against bug ships that knew how to defeat both federation shields and weapons, because the alpha quadrant was already infiltrated by spies. The odyssey still hull tanked them for 10 minutes before disengaging under its own power. I don't recall the defiant doing that well the next episode.
Strangely enough, the definition of "canon" to these Galaxy fanboys is "nothing that shows the Galaxy class in a bad light", which is why they'll talk proudly about an episode like "The Wounded", and stick their fingers in their ears chanting "La-La-La" when episodes like "Rascals", "Tin Man", "Generations", "The Jem'Hadar", etc., are brought up, and then try to run to the TNG Tech Manual in order to attempt to invalidate the canon information illustrating the Galaxy's crappy performance.
Defiant fanboys tend to do this too. The Defiant can go from being the uber ship that saves the day and can't be killed, to the ship that gets taken out in a few hits.
Also, Intrepid fanboys. Pick your hero ship, and you'll have people saying that it can take out anything and everything and should be the most powerful ship ever.
In Star Trek terms, the Galaxy Class is likely stronger than the Defiant. Doesn't make the Defiant a slouch in combat, but the Galaxy class is just bigger, so it can take more hits while dishing out a lot of firepower.
Defiant fanboys tend to do this too. The Defiant can go from being the uber ship that saves the day and can't be killed, to the ship that gets taken out in a few hits.
Also, Intrepid fanboys. Pick your hero ship, and you'll have people saying that it can take out anything and everything and should be the most powerful ship ever.
In Star Trek terms, the Galaxy Class is likely stronger than the Defiant. Doesn't make the Defiant a slouch in combat, but the Galaxy class is just bigger, so it can take more hits while dishing out a lot of firepower.
No offence, but I have NEVER seen the "Defiant fanboys" or the "Intrepid fanboys" blaming "the writers" for any deficiencies shown in its performance, as I see with the Galaxy fanboys. Those "Defiant fanboys" and "Intrepid fanboys" seem to take the good with the bad and accept BOTH as canon, whether they like it or not, unlike these "Galaxy fanboys".
If you need further evidence of this, I would direct you to the 600+ page "Galaxy beef" thread where those Galaxy fanboys are all over the map with their definition of canon, while giving NUMEROUS personal insults to the Devs (and everyone else who doesn't agree with them), which has resulted in almost no "love" from those devs regarding giving the Galaxy fanboys the type of ship that they want, much to no one's surprise but theirs.
Watch out, my friend. These Galaxy fanboys will start whining about "it's the writers fault" or "plot armor", or every other excuse in the book to try to explain away the crappy performance of the Galaxy class. It is totally inconceivable to them that the Galaxy Class ship has been shown to have some serious flaws to it, both offensively and defensively. ("The Arsenal of Freedom", "Darmok", "Tin Man", "Rascals", "The Nth Degree", "Generations", "The Jem'Haddar").
As you correctly pointed out, the Odyssey was unable to destroy a SINGLE Jem'Hadar ship even after it has transferred shield power to the weapons AND with the assistance of two Runabouts. It just couldn't get the job done. Strangely enough, the definition of "canon" to these Galaxy fanboys is "nothing that shows the Galaxy class in a bad light", which is why they'll talk proudly about episodes like "The Wounded", and stick their fingers in their ears chanting "La-La-La" when episodes like "Rascals", "Tin Man", "Generations", "The Jem'Hadar", etc., are brought up, and then try to run to the TNG Tech Manual in order to attempt to invalidate the canon information illustrating the Galaxy's crappy performance.
Unfortunately for the Galaxy fanboys, Cryptic/CBS has chosen to go with the "Rascals" and "The Jem'Hadar" interpretation of the capabilities of the Galaxy class in STO, as opposed to the one that they were hoping for. C'est la vie.
The Galaxy actually performs rather well in a number of situations and was undoubtedly a very potent ship. Hell in yesterday's Enterprise it still gets a kill, which assuming those BoP's have the same firepower as the prime universe ones, (comparable t the defiant), implies drastically weaker shields than the Galaxy.
Defiant fanboys tend to do this too. The Defiant can go from being the uber ship that saves the day and can't be killed, to the ship that gets taken out in a few hits.
Also, Intrepid fanboys. Pick your hero ship, and you'll have people saying that it can take out anything and everything and should be the most powerful ship ever.
In Star Trek terms, the Galaxy Class is likely stronger than the Defiant. Doesn't make the Defiant a slouch in combat, but the Galaxy class is just bigger, so it can take more hits while dishing out a lot of firepower.
Not really, the defiant never gets punched out in a few volleys like the enterprise did repeatedly. It degree of toughness did vary plenty, from strong to ludicrous, but it was always consistently able to survive repeated strikes when it's shields where up and functioning, (when not it certainly suffered as seen on a few occasions, but TBH that's is something only the gal ever shows an ability to put up with). Voyager on the other hand was vary varied, but then again we rarely saw it go up against the same opponent several times very often and rarely did it go up against anything else a starfleet ship encountered so it's not normal you can make a proper estimate of it's abilities. Not to mention how much Bellana and Seven supposedly upgraded everything to the point that it's probably got different levels at different times, (the Ent-D underwent a refit at the end of season 3 officially, but no major upgrades thereafter that i recall).
What does ducat know seriously. Compared to his galors any new fed ship is super scary. not like sisko is going to correct him, oh ducat actually my pimp hands not all that really, compared to something like a galaxy. Remember in that episode the wounded where a top of the line galor proved all but harmless to the enterprise? And a nebula class smoked one with a single torpedo spread when it's shields were down? Ya, those were good times ducat.
Anyway, show of force, against an apparition created by a god. They actually let the ship go all out, seeing as it's target was invincible. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_XbWq49vUM any fight a galaxy lost in the show, if it was allowed to defend it self like that, would have resulted in an instant win.
Also the damage it caused that Borg cube in q who, in 3 hits vaporizing more volume of it then the enterprise had volume herself
The shots fired at that galor utilized a tiny amount of the phaser array, those were not maximum firepower shots, but shots to disable. Probably because they did not want to blow it up at point blank range with themselves.
The Galaxy class never displays that kind of firepower against anything ever again. Hell if you look there was a Galaxy in the first Contact fleet, (it gets blown up trying to run as the cube blows), and guess what, despite the feds putting hug numbers of shots through the shields it never again does that. Hell the enterprise gets hits through the borgs shields and again, never gets hit's like that. That's a very obvious case of early installment weirdness.
Likewise, you claim the hits on the Galor where at partial strength. I'm calling you on it. Prove it.
Hint you can't. In fact given that picard goes to the trouble on several occasions to order worf to fire at reduced power your argument makes no sense. Why would worf fire at partial power when he hasn't been ordered to and past precedent shows that a shot at partial power requires an explicit order to that effect from the captain. Your argument makes no sense.
Whatever you say yoga, size totally maters not. A space pt boat is totally stronger then a big gun battleship. The battle the odyssey fought was against bug ships that knew how to defeat both federation shields and weapons, because the alpha quadrant was already infiltrated by spies. The odyssey still hull tanked them for 10 minutes before disengaging under its own power. I don't recall the defiant doing that well the next episode.
It is if the battleship isn't in fact a battleship but a converted bulk carrier, (known as merchant cruisers despite even the WW2 ones typically massing closer to a BB). That's the point you still refuse to acknowledge. The Gal is not a warship, it does not dedicate any significant percentage of it's volume or it's mass to weapons and shields. The defiant does, and it uses newer tech to boot, as well as some cool tricks, (it's routing of warp power through the weapons power coupling is noted as unique by thomas riker), so shock horror it actually hit's harder. Remember the defiant was explicitly designed to fight the borg and along with the Akira, Steamrunner, (and a few other classes), was designed to represent a new level of tactical capability to deal with this new threat. They wouldn't remotely fulfill that purpose if they where inferior to the allready existing Galaxy class, (which didn't do so awesome either, even if it did better than most)
Also you need to go back and watch the oddy episode again. There are no spies in the federation at this point, the Dominions weapons ability to penetrate fed shields is never claimed to be a specific adaption for the federation, and there is never anywhere in the show any mention of the dominion doing anything to modify their shields to be super resistant to fed weapons. Thats pure made up on your part.
Yes the Oddy took a lot of hull damage. But that's a factor of it having all that non-combat stuff i've brought up on there. it mans there's a lot of non-critical area's they can hit without causing damage to anything important to it's fighting capabilities. The inverse applies to the defiant in the very next episode. Without shields and with no systems padding all it really had was it's ablative armor, and once that went, (and it always went in one or two volleys), it took damage really rapidly, doesn't change the fact that it punched out an attack ship no problem in one volley, (with the same phasers you claim the Jem'Hdar have adapted to).
No offence, but I have NEVER seen the "Defiant fanboys" or the "Intrepid fanboys" blaming "the writers" for any deficiencies shown in its performance, as I see with the Galaxy fanboys. Those "Defiant fanboys" and "Intrepid fanboys" seem to take the good with the bad and accept BOTH as canon, whether they like it or not, unlike these "Galaxy fanboys".
If you need further evidence of this, I would direct you to the 600+ page "Galaxy beef" thread where those Galaxy fanboys are all over the map with their definition of canon, while giving NUMEROUS personal insults to the Devs (and everyone else who doesn't agree with them), which has resulted in almost no "love" from those devs regarding giving the Galaxy fanboys the type of ship that they want, much to no one's surprise but theirs.
I've read the thread, tend to agree with it. For the Intrepid threads, you should read the ones where people are unhappy it's a science ship and think it should be a tactical one.
I was just pointing out that the Defiant fanboys tend to ignore when the ship fails just as much as you say the Galaxy fans do. The Defiant comes up less here because the in game ship itself is better than the games version of the Galaxy class.
I'm amused when people say that the Galaxy wasn't built for combat, therefor it's not good at fighting. It pretty much ignores how Starfleet designs ships.
The Galaxy actually performs rather well in a number of situations and was undoubtedly a very potent ship. Hell in yesterday's Enterprise it still gets a kill, which assuming those BoP's have the same firepower as the prime universe ones, (comparable t the defiant), implies drastically weaker shields than the Galaxy.
Not really, the defiant never gets punched out in a few volleys like the enterprise did repeatedly. It degree of toughness did vary plenty, from strong to ludicrous, but it was always consistently able to survive repeated strikes when it's shields where up and functioning, (when not it certainly suffered as seen on a few occasions, but TBH that's is something only the gal ever shows an ability to put up with). Voyager on the other hand was vary varied, but then again we rarely saw it go up against the same opponent several times very often and rarely did it go up against anything else a starfleet ship encountered so it's not normal you can make a proper estimate of it's abilities. Not to mention how much Bellana and Seven supposedly upgraded everything to the point that it's probably got different levels at different times, (the Ent-D underwent a refit at the end of season 3 officially, but no major upgrades thereafter that i recall).
The Galaxy class never displays that kind of firepower against anything ever again. Hell if you look there was a Galaxy in the first Contact fleet, (it gets blown up trying to run as the cube blows), and guess what, despite the feds putting hug numbers of shots through the shields it never again does that. Hell the enterprise gets hits through the borgs shields and again, never gets hit's like that. That's a very obvious case of early installment weirdness.
Likewise, you claim the hits on the Galor where at partial strength. I'm calling you on it. Prove it.
Hint you can't. In fact given that picard goes to the trouble on several occasions to order worf to fire at reduced power your argument makes no sense. Why would worf fire at partial power when he hasn't been ordered to and past precedent shows that a shot at partial power requires an explicit order to that effect from the captain. Your argument makes no sense.
It is if the battleship isn't in fact a battleship but a converted bulk carrier, (known as merchant cruisers despite even the WW2 ones typically massing closer to a BB). That's the point you still refuse to acknowledge. The Gal is not a warship, it does not dedicate any significant percentage of it's volume or it's mass to weapons and shields. The defiant does, and it uses newer tech to boot, as well as some cool tricks, (it's routing of warp power through the weapons power coupling is noted as unique by thomas riker), so shock horror it actually hit's harder. Remember the defiant was explicitly designed to fight the borg and along with the Akira, Steamrunner, (and a few other classes), was designed to represent a new level of tactical capability to deal with this new threat. They wouldn't remotely fulfill that purpose if they where inferior to the allready existing Galaxy class, (which didn't do so awesome either, even if it did better than most)
Also you need to go back and watch the oddy episode again. There are no spies in the federation at this point, the Dominions weapons ability to penetrate fed shields is never claimed to be a specific adaption for the federation, and there is never anywhere in the show any mention of the dominion doing anything to modify their shields to be super resistant to fed weapons. Thats pure made up on your part.
Yes the Oddy took a lot of hull damage. But that's a factor of it having all that non-combat stuff i've brought up on there. it mans there's a lot of non-critical area's they can hit without causing damage to anything important to it's fighting capabilities. The inverse applies to the defiant in the very next episode. Without shields and with no systems padding all it really had was it's ablative armor, and once that went, (and it always went in one or two volleys), it took damage really rapidly, doesn't change the fact that it punched out an attack ship no problem in one volley, (with the same phasers you claim the Jem'Hdar have adapted to).
I definitely agree with you on most of your points. BTW, I didn't say that the Galaxy class never performed well. I just pointed out that against MOST equal (or lesser) opponents, It didn't do that great of a job collectively. In all of those episodes that I listed (at least the ones where the ship survived) , the Galaxy class took a whoppin' and had to resort to the same "plot armor" to save the ship that the Galaxy fanboys suddenly denounce when it's being applied to another ship. For example, the fact that it took less than 5 SECONDS for a Romulan Warbird to knock down seventy percent of the Ent-D shields and cause appreciable damage ("Tin Man") when they weren't even trying to destroy the Ent-D, while the Ent-D couldn't take down a 20 year old BOP shields after MINUTES of fighting in Generations", shows that the Galaxy Class ship has some serious tactical issues.
Now, compare the last situation to the Defiant in "The Way of The Warrior" in it's fight with a BOP. In its first volley against the BOP it was facing off, two of the first shots missed. The third shot not only punched through the BOP shields, but caused significant damage to it hull, the next volley vaporized the BOP, within 5 seconds.
Also, compare the Prometheus in it's fight with the Romulan Warbird. It was also able to dispatch the Romuilan Warbird in 5 seconds. Again, these are just a couple of examples that showed that other ships can often perform combat duties better than the Galaxy.
The Gallaxy fanboys can complain about "the writers'" all the want, but this is the canon that they have to deal with, and all the mind numbing talk about "phaser array lengths" won't do, and has done, nothing to change the perception of the Galaxy's weaknesses, whether in-game or out.
Are you really using the ship stats from STO to compare these ships in the series? Let's clear a few things up. According to the game, the excelsior, which is 2 generations behind, is more powerful than the galaxy, and a close match with the sovereign. A basic BoP somehow outclasses most cruisers, and the galaxy dreadnaught has a hangar.
Now, the series tells a very different story. The excelsior is indeed less advanced and less powerful than the ambassador, and completely outdone by the galaxy and sovereign. No BoP has a hope of defeating a galaxy class on its own, and the dreadnaught most certainly my never had a hangar. Next time you make an argument, go with the facts from the series, not the fiction from the game.
You mean the same Galaxy that with shield power to weapon put dozens of shots into a jemh'dar attack ship and didn't even get through the shields whilst the defiant with full shield power to shields regularly punches them out in one shot. That Gal. Sorry but your wrong.
Your trying to justify a position that isn't supported by the actual on screen evidence. Nowhere is the Galaxy (in the few direct comparisons we can make), ever shown to have the kind of firepower your claiming.
Equally compare the Enterprises late season performance against those two ferengi crewed BoP's. A few volleys and the enterprise has no shields, (even the yesterday's enterprise Ent D got punched out by 3 BoP pretty rapidly whilst doing only modest damage in return). During Sisko's Rescue of the Detapa council they take on 3 and come out ahead with 2 down and no mention of serious shield damage, and that's on top of eating a bunch of fire to the shields from a Vorcha. Something similar happens during the dominon war. When those remote powered orbital weapon platforms come online and start shredding stuff they punch out the lights federation ships completely, punch out the Gal's shields, (but the sheer excess non-critical system hull volume appears to keep it from being destroyed outright in the first volley), whilst the defiant eats hits to the shields and comes out with intact shields and no visible hull damage. The Defiant is clearly also much better shielded.
It quite obvious that Size has no real bearing on the effectiveness of starfleet vessels. Which is no surprise. As i pointed out the Gals have huge endurance, huge shuttlebays, huge cargo bays, huge crews, and huge science systems eating lots of space and power both. Most of it's mass and volume is dedicated to non-combat system. I have a few theories on the topic beyond the above on screen stuff as well, but their only loosely, (implied but never directly stated), supported on screen, but if you want to hear them i'll happily elaborate.
You missed a few things
The Enterprise D did more damage to the hull of the borg cube it encountered than the sovereign and defiiant combined in first contact
Those Bops you speak of were KaVort class battlecruisers not bops
If you went to the technical manuals the phaser arrays and torpedo launchers from a galaxy class have more mass than a total defiant class ship
about those 3 jhas's tht attacked the oddessy they beat on it almost 10 minutes and couldnt take it down....and for the entitre encounter the oddessy had no shields and the jem hadar had something pokey going om that protected them from phaser and torpedo damage that we never saw again
And it was never explained either...poor writing
anything you can put in a small ship you can put more of in a larger ship.........period
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The Galaxy actually performs rather well in a number of situations and was undoubtedly a very potent ship. Hell in yesterday's Enterprise it still gets a kill, which assuming those BoP's have the same firepower as the prime universe ones, (comparable t the defiant), implies drastically weaker shields than the Galaxy.
Not really, the defiant never gets punched out in a few volleys like the enterprise did repeatedly. It degree of toughness did vary plenty, from strong to ludicrous, but it was always consistently able to survive repeated strikes when it's shields where up and functioning, (when not it certainly suffered as seen on a few occasions, but TBH that's is something only the gal ever shows an ability to put up with). Voyager on the other hand was vary varied, but then again we rarely saw it go up against the same opponent several times very often and rarely did it go up against anything else a starfleet ship encountered so it's not normal you can make a proper estimate of it's abilities. Not to mention how much Bellana and Seven supposedly upgraded everything to the point that it's probably got different levels at different times, (the Ent-D underwent a refit at the end of season 3 officially, but no major upgrades thereafter that i recall).
The Galaxy class never displays that kind of firepower against anything ever again. Hell if you look there was a Galaxy in the first Contact fleet, (it gets blown up trying to run as the cube blows), and guess what, despite the feds putting hug numbers of shots through the shields it never again does that. Hell the enterprise gets hits through the borgs shields and again, never gets hit's like that. That's a very obvious case of early installment weirdness.
Likewise, you claim the hits on the Galor where at partial strength. I'm calling you on it. Prove it.
Hint you can't. In fact given that picard goes to the trouble on several occasions to order worf to fire at reduced power your argument makes no sense. Why would worf fire at partial power when he hasn't been ordered to and past precedent shows that a shot at partial power requires an explicit order to that effect from the captain. Your argument makes no sense.
It is if the battleship isn't in fact a battleship but a converted bulk carrier, (known as merchant cruisers despite even the WW2 ones typically massing closer to a BB). That's the point you still refuse to acknowledge. The Gal is not a warship, it does not dedicate any significant percentage of it's volume or it's mass to weapons and shields. The defiant does, and it uses newer tech to boot, as well as some cool tricks, (it's routing of warp power through the weapons power coupling is noted as unique by thomas riker), so shock horror it actually hit's harder. Remember the defiant was explicitly designed to fight the borg and along with the Akira, Steamrunner, (and a few other classes), was designed to represent a new level of tactical capability to deal with this new threat. They wouldn't remotely fulfill that purpose if they where inferior to the allready existing Galaxy class, (which didn't do so awesome either, even if it did better than most)
Also you need to go back and watch the oddy episode again. There are no spies in the federation at this point, the Dominions weapons ability to penetrate fed shields is never claimed to be a specific adaption for the federation, and there is never anywhere in the show any mention of the dominion doing anything to modify their shields to be super resistant to fed weapons. Thats pure made up on your part.
Yes the Oddy took a lot of hull damage. But that's a factor of it having all that non-combat stuff i've brought up on there. it mans there's a lot of non-critical area's they can hit without causing damage to anything important to it's fighting capabilities. The inverse applies to the defiant in the very next episode. Without shields and with no systems padding all it really had was it's ablative armor, and once that went, (and it always went in one or two volleys), it took damage really rapidly, doesn't change the fact that it punched out an attack ship no problem in one volley, (with the same phasers you claim the Jem'Hdar have adapted to).
I've read the thread, tend to agree with it. For the Intrepid threads, you should read the ones where people are unhappy it's a science ship and think it should be a tactical one.
I was just pointing out that the Defiant fanboys tend to ignore when the ship fails just as much as you say the Galaxy fans do. The Defiant comes up less here because the in game ship itself is better than the games version of the Galaxy class.
I'm amused when people say that the Galaxy wasn't built for combat, therefor it's not good at fighting. It pretty much ignores how Starfleet designs ships.
Just because something is designed to do something doesn't mean that it's going to do it well. The problem with the Galaxy Class comes from the TNG episodes themselves, whether it's "Tin Man", "Rascals", "The Jem'Hadar", "Darmok", "The Nth Degree", "Generations", "The Arsenal of Freedom", "Descent Part 2", etc. It definitely didn't live up to it's so-called "battle design". When TNG was on, I would just shake my head at how often this ship was getting it's TRIBBLE handed to it, versus the TOS Enterprise, that stood up remarkably well for the dangers that it faced.
The TOS ship was designed to be a good combat ship, and guess what? It was also SHOWN to be that way, whether it was surviving Nomad's multiple 90 photon torpedo blasts ("The Changeling"), or surviving a pounding from THREE Romulan ships ("The Deadly Years"), there was a sense that the TOS Enterprise was a HIGHLY capable battleship BECAUSE it was SHOWN to be one, and it didn't let itself get slapped around most of the time by lesser or equal opponents, like the Ent-D did FAR too often.
The Enterprise D did more damage to the hull of the borg cube it encountered than the sovereign and defiiant combined in first contact
Stupid argument. Up to that point the borg had never been attacked by a federation ship. After the first couple of shots the borg adapted to the phasers and the galaxy was useless. The sovereign and defiant were using modified tactics that was hurting the borg even though they had adapted to federation technology.
Stupid argument. Up to that point the borg had never been attacked by a federation ship. After the first couple of shots the borg adapted to the phasers and the galaxy was useless. The sovereign and defiant were using modified tactics that was hurting the borg even though they had adapted to federation technology.
Hull did not and never adapted.......Only shields adapted
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The Enterprise D did more damage to the hull of the borg cube it encountered than the sovereign and defiiant combined in first contact
Those Bops you speak of were KaVort class battlecruisers not bops
If you went to the technical manuals the phaser arrays and torpedo launchers from a galaxy class have more mass than a total defiant class ship
about those 3 jhas's tht attacked the oddessy they beat on it almost 10 minutes and couldnt take it down....and for the entitre encounter the oddessy had no shields and the jem hadar had something pokey going om that protected them from phaser and torpedo damage that we never saw again
And it was never explained either...poor writing
anything you can put in a small ship you can put more of in a larger ship.........period
And yet, the Ent-D was NEVER able to do that much damage to a cube again. It couldn't even put a scratch in the non-Cube "Lore's rengade" Borg ship in "Descent part2", and was quickly whipped and had to tuck its tail and run and hide in a sun until they were able to come up with a non-combat solution to defeat it.
Hull did not and never adapted.......Only shields adapted
And the galaxy couldn't get through those shields ever again, while the sovereign and defiant managed to penetrate some of the shields to cause a little damage.
I get that you're a galaxy fanboy but don't make false arguments. The galaxy got some free shots before the borg adapted, and that's why they did so much damage. After that they might as well have been throwing raisins at them.
I definitely agree with you on most of your points. BTW, I didn't say that the Galaxy class never performed well. I just pointed out that against MOST equal (or lesser) opponents, It didn't do that great of a job collectively. In all of those episodes that I listed (at least the ones where the ship survived) , the Galaxy class took a whoppin' and had to resort to the same "plot armor" to save the ship that the Galaxy fanboys suddenly denounce when it's being applied to another ship. For example, the fact that it took less than 5 SECONDS for a Romulan Warbird to knock down seventy percent of the Ent-D shields and cause appreciable damage ("Tin Man") when they weren't even trying to destroy the Ent-D, while the Ent-D couldn't take down a 20 year old BOP shields after MINUTES of fighting in Generations", shows that the Galaxy Class ship has some serious tactical issues.
Now, compare the last situation to the Defiant in "The Way of The Warrior" in it's fight with a BOP. In its first volley against the BOP it was facing off, two of the first shots missed. The third shot not only punched through the BOP shields, but caused significant damage to it hull, the next volley vaporized the BOP, within 5 seconds.
Also, compare the Prometheus in it's fight with the Romulan Warbird. It was also able to dispatch the Romuilan Warbird in 5 seconds. Again, these are just a couple of examples that showed that other ships can often perform combat duties better than the Galaxy.
The Gallaxy fanboys can complain about "the writers'" all the want, but this is the canon that they have to deal with, and all the mind numbing talk about "phaser array lengths" won't do, and has done, nothing to change the perception of the Galaxy's weaknesses, whether in-game or out.
Actually in generations we don't see or hear it fire that many shots whilst in yesterday's enterprise we see the enterprise take out a BoP despite also putting shots into two other ships. It's hard to be sure how many that specific ship took but i'd guess based on the other's survival that it was the one that ate the torpedo spread. In that case the question is more why didn't the enterprise hit the sisters BoP with a big torpedo spread?
TBH the Gal IMO displays respectable firepower, (not awesome but it never felt under-gunned till the dominion came along), but tends to suffer in shields. It's just that the firepower alone wasn't enough.
I've read the thread, tend to agree with it. For the Intrepid threads, you should read the ones where people are unhappy it's a science ship and think it should be a tactical one.
I was just pointing out that the Defiant fanboys tend to ignore when the ship fails just as much as you say the Galaxy fans do. The Defiant comes up less here because the in game ship itself is better than the games version of the Galaxy class.
I'm amused when people say that the Galaxy wasn't built for combat, therefor it's not good at fighting. It pretty much ignores how Starfleet designs ships.
I haven't really seen the discussions on them so i can't comment on specifics but i have to call you on one thing.
Show me an example of the defiant getting punched out that doesn't involve it's shields being allready down or being bypassed?
Because off the top of my head i can't think of an example. The defiant got punched out a fair few times, but it never suffered what the gal often did. Which was go into a fight, get hit a few times and then have little or no shields remaining and with major systems damage. The defiant tanks that kind of stuff and repeatedly hit much harder punching out BoP's and Attack ships alike in just a volley or two. That's where the problem for comparison comes from. The Gal regularly gets punched out despite being fully battle ready. with the enemy having no advantage like shield bypass or surprise attacks before they could get the shields up. The defiant on the other hand never gets punched out in that state. So the Defiant failures, whilst present, make plenty of sense because there's an underlying cause beyond "paper shields".
Also got to grab your last comment.
The Galaxy wasn't built to be a dedicated warship, that's a long way from "not built for combat". The defiant is an example of a warship, so are BoP's, they're ships who's entire mass is devoted to to weapons, shields, armor, and the engines, power systems and fuel supplies needed to turn it from a defense platform into a mobile ship. The Galaxy on the other hand has most of it's volume dedicated to cargo bays, shuttle bays, crew and family quarters, supply storage, (mostly matter antimatter), and science labs. It was supposedly at the time launched still the most powerful ship in starfleet. That's not the same though as the most powerful ship it's size. In many ways only it's sheer size made it a danger t it's (much smaller by volume), counterparts in other star faring organisations.
@Jellico: There was a galaxy in the first contact fleet and that did get through the shields again, the D also got through the borg shields in Best of Both worlds and didn't do the same. The borg cube argument doesn't hold up. Mentioned this in the post you quoted if you bothered to read.
To skip ahead a bit, we have no evidence the attack ships where doing anything weird and in fact we saw them display remarkable toughness through the entire show. The Centaur vs Sisko's attack ship is especially notable as they take over a dozen photon torpedoes, (a weapon TNG repeatedly treated as more powerful than a galaxy's phasers), that's quite in line with the considerable number of shots those attack ships eat.
Likewise just because there's more mass to tactical doesn't mean much in a direct comparison. The defiant is a much newer ship and has a pretty big warp core without anything like as many non-tactical systems sucking power away and can feed power directly off the warp drive which implies a much higher power draw, and thus firepower than prior systems. As for how they got such a huge increase in such a short time? We don't know. My point with the volume thing was to point to the fact that the sheer size of the galaxy means very little because only a small% of it's volume goes to tactical systems. Once you start trying to do actual comparisons to ships of different tech levels you have to factor in those tech level differences as well.
As for Yesterday's enterprise. Their called Kavorts, but they're clearly BoP's in every detail, in particular the Torpedo launcher on the front gives us their actual size. Remember generations throws up the info that there';s many models of BoP, so just because their Kavorts doesn't mean they aren't BoP's. We also have the two BoP's the Ferengi use on the enterprise later on as a comparison point and if anything they outperform the Kavort's. So disregarding Yesterday's enterprise only makes the Gal look even weaker.
Actually in generations we don't see or hear it fire that many shots whilst in yesterday's enterprise we see the enterprise take out a BoP despite also putting shots into two other ships. It's hard to be sure how many that specific ship took but i'd guess based on the other's survival that it was the one that ate the torpedo spread. In that case the question is more why didn't the enterprise hit the sisters BoP with a big torpedo spread?.
Well, we know that the Ent-D was still firing because the Klingon Weapons officer clearly reports to the Duras sisters that "Our Shields are holding" just right before the Ent-D engages the BOP's cloak in order to get the BOP to drop their shields.
The ONLY time in ALL of Star Trek that this kind of statement about shields is EVER made is when something is attacking those said shields.
The Galaxy class never displays that kind of firepower against anything ever again. Hell if you look there was a Galaxy in the first Contact fleet, (it gets blown up trying to run as the cube blows), and guess what, despite the feds putting hug numbers of shots through the shields it never again does that. Hell the enterprise gets hits through the borgs shields and again, never gets hit's like that. That's a very obvious case of early installment weirdness.
There was a nebula there not a galaxy. Getting blown up by the Borg is hardly some mark of shame. oh it never shoots like that again, I'm afraid that matters not, it's as canon as everything else, and totally consistent with its other weapons fireing. The rest of that was incomprehensible.
Likewise, you claim the hits on the Galor where at partial strength. I'm calling you on it. Prove it.
Hint you can't. In fact given that picard goes to the trouble on several occasions to order worf to fire at reduced power your argument makes no sense. Why would worf fire at partial power when he hasn't been ordered to and past precedent shows that a shot at partial power requires an explicit order to that effect from the captain. Your argument makes no sense.
Oh but I can. This claim I made is based on the basics of how arrays operate. All you have to do is watch the moving glow effect on the array before it fires to know how much power is behind the shot. Those 2 shots used a tiny amount of emitters, for a full power shot the pre fire glow would have encompassed the entire array. Compare those 2 shots from the galaxy and the damage they cased to that burst of fire the the defiant fired that disabled the presuming galor when Thomas riker stole it. both left the cardasian ship disabled, both examples probably have similar output.
it is if the battleship isn't in fact a battleship but a converted bulk carrier, (known as merchant cruisers despite even the WW2 ones typically massing closer to a BB). That's the point you still refuse to acknowledge. The Gal is not a warship, it does not dedicate any significant percentage of it's volume or it's mass to weapons and shields. The defiant does, and it uses newer tech to boot, as well as some cool tricks, (it's routing of warp power through the weapons power coupling is noted as unique by thomas riker), so shock horror it actually hit's harder. Remember the defiant was explicitly designed to fight the borg and along with the Akira, Steamrunner, (and a few other classes), was designed to represent a new level of tactical capability to deal with this new threat. They wouldn't remotely fulfill that purpose if they where inferior to the already existing Galaxy class, (which didn't do so awesome either, even if it did better than most
A galaxy has more volume devoted to its power generation and eps plumbing to its defensive and offensive system then the defiant has total volume. It's main arrays are huge, it's torpedoes launchers are huge, no other ship has larger, so who cares what the rest of the space is used for. The galaxy is mostly modular inside, it can be set up in a number of extremes. Like the Version we saw for 7 years, the yesterday's enterprise warship, or anything in between. Routs warp power through weapons? A load of technobabble nonsense. The warp core makes plasma, the impulse reactors make plasma. The warp drive and weapons run on plasma. The defiant has 4 cannon emitters, the largest array on the galaxy has 200 emitters, all holding their own charge, and the array is able to use the power of all 200 in each shot, or less if desired.
also you need to go back and watch the oddy episode again. There are no spies in the federation at this point, the Dominions weapons ability to penetrate fed shields is never claimed to be a specific adaption for the federation, and there is never anywhere in the show any mention of the dominion doing anything to modify their shields to be super resistant to fed weapons. Thats pure made up on your part.
Yes the Oddy took a lot of hull damage. But that's a factor of it having all that non-combat stuff i've brought up on there. it mans there's a lot of non-critical area's they can hit without causing damage to anything important to it's fighting capabilities. The inverse applies to the defiant in the very next episode. Without shields and with no systems padding all it really had was it's ablative armor, and once that went, (and it always went in one or two volleys), it took damage really rapidly, doesn't change the fact that it punched out an attack ship no problem in one volley, (with the same phasers you claim the Jem'Hdar have adapted to
It's been so long since anyone of you watched ds9, other then YouTube battle clips.the battle was staged to deliver a double agent into the federation, after 'rescuing' her.they already knew the federation was that naive and clueless for them to pull it off. Then she disappeared without a trace, ya there was totally no prior infiltration at all. The federation was compromised a week after the worm hole was discovered, and the dominion went out of their way to avoid contact until they had time to get a good look at what was on the other side of that wormhole. You, the viewer, were supposed to realize how compromised the federation was the same time sisko and crew did by the end of the next season.
The canons work different from beams, at least then. Each shot is wrapped in layers of different frequencies to combat Borg adaptation, seems to be enough to harm the bug ships at that point. In the very first battle, 2 runabouts and a galaxy couldn't shoot down 2 bug ships. Late in the war, 1 runabout had the firepower to shoot down a bug. Whatever the problem with the weapons was before, it got solved by the time the war started.
@Jellico: There was a galaxy in the first contact fleet and that did get through the shields again, the D also got through the borg shields in Best of Both worlds and didn't do the same. The borg cube argument doesn't hold up. Mentioned this in the post you quoted if you bothered to read.
To skip ahead a bit, we have no evidence the attack ships where doing anything weird and in fact we saw them display remarkable toughness through the entire show. The Centaur vs Sisko's attack ship is especially notable as they take over a dozen photon torpedoes, (a weapon TNG repeatedly treated as more powerful than a galaxy's phasers), that's quite in line with the considerable number of shots those attack ships eat.
Likewise just because there's more mass to tactical doesn't mean much in a direct comparison. The defiant is a much newer ship and has a pretty big warp core without anything like as many non-tactical systems sucking power away and can feed power directly off the warp drive which implies a much higher power draw, and thus firepower than prior systems. As for how they got such a huge increase in such a short time? We don't know. My point with the volume thing was to point to the fact that the sheer size of the galaxy means very little because only a small% of it's volume goes to tactical systems. Once you start trying to do actual comparisons to ships of different tech levels you have to factor in those tech level differences as well.
As for Yesterday's enterprise. Their called Kavorts, but they're clearly BoP's in every detail, in particular the Torpedo launcher on the front gives us their actual size. Remember generations throws up the info that there';s many models of BoP, so just because their Kavorts doesn't mean they aren't BoP's. We also have the two BoP's the Ferengi use on the enterprise later on as a comparison point and if anything they outperform the Kavort's. So disregarding Yesterday's enterprise only makes the Gal look even weaker.
"Chain Of Command" also showed that the Galaxy class has some noticable power limitations and restrictions. When Jellico was actually trying to make the ship more "battle ready", whole shipwide divisions had to be completely shut down. Not just on reduced power, but COMPLETELY shut down. Those science and operational departments take up a LOT of power, so much so , that the ship couldn't be a "battle ship" AND an exploration ship. It had to be one OR the OTHER, but not BOTH. And when it tries to be BOTH, you get the crappy results that are shown in "Rascals", "Darmok", "Tin Man", "Descent part2", The Nth Degree", etc.
And as far as the d'deridex's firepower goes, of course each shot striped 10% of the enterprises shields. That single cannon is monsteriously powerful. 1 d'deridex was able to destroy ds9 in the same kind of attack in this episode o'Brian was shifting through time, so it could later be prevented or whatever.
As far as the Prometheus goes, it finished off a d'deridex that an akira and 2 defiant had been shooting at for a few minutes already. And that nebula it 'defeated', all they did was knock it out of warp, warp far beyond what it was supposed to be able to safely travel at as it was.
Every time we see d'deridex do well, it's an in and out ambush. When it sticks around and dukes it out they always get torn to shreds it seems.
1. I can't find my copy of First contact but i'll dig it out and check to be sure for you. But that stil doesn't answer the issue with the the ent D never doing that to the borg in best of both worlds despite getting a few shots through. And yes one incident is irrelevant if it's contradicted by later evidence to the contrary.
2. Go whats again, this time with the brightness not set to dimmy dimm dimm dim. It uses the full array, i just checked. It is faint though so seriously get your brightness and contrast maxed;). Also that was a Keldon the Defiant disabled not a Galor. It's got very obvious upgrades, (unlike the BoP issue)
3. Like i said in reply to someone else a post or two ago. The defiant is newer tech than the Galaxy by a good ways, (the ent is 5 years old by the time the defiant is built, the galaxy class itself even older), and doesn't have a bunch of other systems draining it's power. (Depending on the physics of the warp drive and shield system the smaller size could also save a lot of power there, but that's a guess only, i don;t think we ever get an explicit statement as to weather it's total warp field energy or warp field energy density that decide warp speed and shields are even less clear, a similar unanswered question applies to the SIF systems TBH).
Also the show makes a clear distinction on many occasions between ordinary plasma and warp plasma and we see in the late TNG episode in the nacelle pylon that a lot of plasma still goes to the nacelles meaning the Enterprise is only scavenging some of it, not the majority whereas a direct warp power link to the defiant's weapons should mean it can shunt a lot more of the available warp core energy into it's weapons.
4. Actually try just before i posted. In fact you gave the exact rebutal i was going to give. Namely they went to the torubkle of planting a double agent. Why plant a spy if you allready have them. Your argument makes no sense. And most importantly there is no onscreen evidence either in any conversation. In fact in Call to Arms Weyon explicitly states "federation shields have always proven useless against our weapons". He treats their ability to bypass federation shields as an innate property of the weapons, not some special modification, and doesn't once mention attempting to modify they're hack.
@polaronbeam1 Forgot about that, one of the few TNG i rarely re-watch, hate Jellico.
The Galaxy wasn't built to be a dedicated warship, that's a long way from "not built for combat". The defiant is an example of a warship, so are BoP's, they're ships who's entire mass is devoted to to weapons, shields, armor, and the engines, power systems and fuel supplies needed to turn it from a defense platform into a mobile ship. The Galaxy on the other hand has most of it's volume dedicated to cargo bays, shuttle bays, crew and family quarters, supply storage, (mostly matter antimatter), and science labs. It was supposedly at the time launched still the most powerful ship in starfleet. That's not the same though as the most powerful ship it's size. In many ways only it's sheer size made it a danger t it's (much smaller by volume), counterparts in other star faring organisations.
Just because something is built to be a warship doesn't automatically make it stronger than other things. If it was, then the Federation would have been taken over a long time ago since non of their ships are designed as dedicated warships (other than the Defiant and Prometheus) while everyone else they fight has them.
And how much space in a ship is dedicated to something doesn't really matter when the ships are different sizes.
As for the Defiant taking hits, it sure can. But generally during the Dominion war and Deep Space Nine she was taking on ships her size. Other than Galor and Keldons, the Defiant rarely engages and wins against ships outside her size range (usually prefered not to). Unless you have a ridiculously good helmsmen who can make your ship dodge incoming fire. 2 of them and a Akira were used to take on 3 Romulan warbirds, and didn't destroy any (but did do some unknown amount of damage). Of course we barely saw any of that battle. Plus you also need to remember the Valiant, who didn't do so well against a Dominion ship larger than it.
Pointing out where the Galaxy class has had problems in combat doesn't show that the Galaxy class is weaker than the Defiant, only that the Defiant was a good warship. The only direct comparison we have between two Starfleet ships is that the Defiant is as strong as an Excelsior class with unknown upgrades. How strong that Excelsior was compared to a Galaxy class we don't know.
EDIT: Just to dispel this. If there's any ship I'm a fanboy of, it's the Sovereign class.
Okay ket';s go for this. Galaxy is design first for Exploration THEN battle. She does have firepower but not as much as a ship her size can have. Hence after a decade most of the Origianl Galaxys were destroyed and we see the launch of the Sovereign class which is Galaxys opposite. Combat first exploration second. They both in the end follow fed practices of a ship have both peace ans wartime applications. Defiant. is a pure warship and more firepower than a ship her size normally has. It went into a stale mate with lakota which considering refits is just Below an Ambassador. As for the OP. Excelsior while a good and durable ship could nolonger be the flag class in the fleet by the 2330's thus the Ambassador which served that role for about 20 years or so. and considering that Excel fully replaces the connie by 2290 that's a good flag run for a class and the fact it is still used today shows it's toughness. Heck the Sovie is a sucessor in design to her. But even with Lakota Refit she is getting old and the feds are not he KDF is using old refited classes again and again.
Defiant had those advanced phaser cannons. Sovereign has the mk XII phasers. The same as the Promethious which made short work of that D'Deridex.
While the Galaxy is armed with only MK X Phasers, even after the refit during the Dominion war, when they gained additional arrays. Still only armed with X. Though the Sovereign when it was first launched with MK X, but later they were brought back to dock and armed with MK XII. This was during the Dominion war. So... you could say, that both First Contact and maybe Insurrection.
Kind of surprised this necro thread is still shambling along.
Agreed. Where the hell are the frakking mods? I've already PM'd Bluegeek and that was over a day ago.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
By looking at the Excelsior (ST III era) vs. Ambassador (TNG era). According to *canon*, the Ambassador was designed to replace the aging Excelsior. OK, understood, but a close inspection between both ships reveals quite the opposite.
. "Slightly" greater hull
. 3 Science slots (is this somehow supposed to make up for lack of Tac slots)?
The Excelsior will out-gun, out maneuver, go faster, and than its' younger sister. Can anyone explain why Starfleet would even bother building an inferior ship to replace an older, superior one?
Constructive criticism, thoughts, concerns, ideas, opinions are welcome. Let's provide a thesis either way.
Several points. first the Lakota in ds9 wasn't a stock excelsior it was heavily modified and refitted.
Second the defiant was secretly modified too with extra armor added.
on the ambassador class it was able to take on several Romulan warbirds at Narendra III for a fair amount of time. On it vs excelsior if it was a stock ambassador vs a modified Lakota type excelsior I might worry, but again like what has been said before, trying to reconcile canon with pretty much anything in sto will have you facedesking till you go unconscious.
Never ever take sto's ship stats seriously! Eg cryptics Jem'hadar attack (bug) ship of doom.
Comments
Watch out, my friend. These Galaxy fanboys will start whining about "it's the writers fault" or "plot armor", or every other excuse in the book to try to explain away the crappy performance of the Galaxy class. It is totally inconceivable to them that the Galaxy Class ship has been shown to have some serious flaws to it, both offensively and defensively. ("The Arsenal of Freedom", "Darmok", "Tin Man", "Rascals", "The Nth Degree", "Generations", "The Jem'Haddar").
As you correctly pointed out, the Odyssey was unable to destroy a SINGLE Jem'Hadar ship even after it has transferred shield power to the weapons AND with the assistance of two Runabouts. It just couldn't get the job done.
Strangely enough, the definition of "canon" to these Galaxy fanboys is "nothing that shows the Galaxy class in a bad light", which is why they'll talk proudly about an episode like "The Wounded", and stick their fingers in their ears chanting "La-La-La" when episodes like "Rascals", "Tin Man", "Generations", "The Jem'Hadar", etc., are brought up, and then try to run to the TNG Tech Manual in order to attempt to invalidate the canon information illustrating the Galaxy's crappy performance.
Unfortunately for the Galaxy fanboys, Cryptic/CBS has chosen to go with the "Rascals" and "The Jem'Hadar" interpretation of the capabilities of the Galaxy class in STO, as opposed to the one that they were hoping for. C'est la vie.
What does ducat know seriously. Compared to his galors any new fed ship is super scary. not like sisko is going to correct him, oh ducat actually my pimp hands not all that really, compared to something like a galaxy. Remember in that episode the wounded where a top of the line galor proved all but harmless to the enterprise? And a nebula class smoked one with a single torpedo spread when it's shields were down? Ya, those were good times ducat.
Anyway, show of force, against an apparition created by a god. They actually let the ship go all out, seeing as it's target was invincible. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_XbWq49vUM any fight a galaxy lost in the show, if it was allowed to defend it self like that, would have resulted in an instant win.
Also the damage it caused that Borg cube in q who, in 3 hits vaporizing more volume of it then the enterprise had volume herself
The shots fired at that galor utilized a tiny amount of the phaser array, those were not maximum firepower shots, but shots to disable. Probably because they did not want to blow it up at point blank range with themselves.
Whatever you say yoga, size totally maters not. A space pt boat is totally stronger then a big gun battleship. The battle the odyssey fought was against bug ships that knew how to defeat both federation shields and weapons, because the alpha quadrant was already infiltrated by spies. The odyssey still hull tanked them for 10 minutes before disengaging under its own power. I don't recall the defiant doing that well the next episode.
Defiant fanboys tend to do this too.
Also, Intrepid fanboys. Pick your hero ship, and you'll have people saying that it can take out anything and everything and should be the most powerful ship ever.
In Star Trek terms, the Galaxy Class is likely stronger than the Defiant. Doesn't make the Defiant a slouch in combat, but the Galaxy class is just bigger, so it can take more hits while dishing out a lot of firepower.
No offence, but I have NEVER seen the "Defiant fanboys" or the "Intrepid fanboys" blaming "the writers" for any deficiencies shown in its performance, as I see with the Galaxy fanboys. Those "Defiant fanboys" and "Intrepid fanboys" seem to take the good with the bad and accept BOTH as canon, whether they like it or not, unlike these "Galaxy fanboys".
If you need further evidence of this, I would direct you to the 600+ page "Galaxy beef" thread where those Galaxy fanboys are all over the map with their definition of canon, while giving NUMEROUS personal insults to the Devs (and everyone else who doesn't agree with them), which has resulted in almost no "love" from those devs regarding giving the Galaxy fanboys the type of ship that they want, much to no one's surprise but theirs.
The Galaxy actually performs rather well in a number of situations and was undoubtedly a very potent ship. Hell in yesterday's Enterprise it still gets a kill, which assuming those BoP's have the same firepower as the prime universe ones, (comparable t the defiant), implies drastically weaker shields than the Galaxy.
Not really, the defiant never gets punched out in a few volleys like the enterprise did repeatedly. It degree of toughness did vary plenty, from strong to ludicrous, but it was always consistently able to survive repeated strikes when it's shields where up and functioning, (when not it certainly suffered as seen on a few occasions, but TBH that's is something only the gal ever shows an ability to put up with). Voyager on the other hand was vary varied, but then again we rarely saw it go up against the same opponent several times very often and rarely did it go up against anything else a starfleet ship encountered so it's not normal you can make a proper estimate of it's abilities. Not to mention how much Bellana and Seven supposedly upgraded everything to the point that it's probably got different levels at different times, (the Ent-D underwent a refit at the end of season 3 officially, but no major upgrades thereafter that i recall).
The Galaxy class never displays that kind of firepower against anything ever again. Hell if you look there was a Galaxy in the first Contact fleet, (it gets blown up trying to run as the cube blows), and guess what, despite the feds putting hug numbers of shots through the shields it never again does that. Hell the enterprise gets hits through the borgs shields and again, never gets hit's like that. That's a very obvious case of early installment weirdness.
Likewise, you claim the hits on the Galor where at partial strength. I'm calling you on it. Prove it.
Hint you can't. In fact given that picard goes to the trouble on several occasions to order worf to fire at reduced power your argument makes no sense. Why would worf fire at partial power when he hasn't been ordered to and past precedent shows that a shot at partial power requires an explicit order to that effect from the captain. Your argument makes no sense.
It is if the battleship isn't in fact a battleship but a converted bulk carrier, (known as merchant cruisers despite even the WW2 ones typically massing closer to a BB). That's the point you still refuse to acknowledge. The Gal is not a warship, it does not dedicate any significant percentage of it's volume or it's mass to weapons and shields. The defiant does, and it uses newer tech to boot, as well as some cool tricks, (it's routing of warp power through the weapons power coupling is noted as unique by thomas riker), so shock horror it actually hit's harder. Remember the defiant was explicitly designed to fight the borg and along with the Akira, Steamrunner, (and a few other classes), was designed to represent a new level of tactical capability to deal with this new threat. They wouldn't remotely fulfill that purpose if they where inferior to the allready existing Galaxy class, (which didn't do so awesome either, even if it did better than most)
Also you need to go back and watch the oddy episode again. There are no spies in the federation at this point, the Dominions weapons ability to penetrate fed shields is never claimed to be a specific adaption for the federation, and there is never anywhere in the show any mention of the dominion doing anything to modify their shields to be super resistant to fed weapons. Thats pure made up on your part.
Yes the Oddy took a lot of hull damage. But that's a factor of it having all that non-combat stuff i've brought up on there. it mans there's a lot of non-critical area's they can hit without causing damage to anything important to it's fighting capabilities. The inverse applies to the defiant in the very next episode. Without shields and with no systems padding all it really had was it's ablative armor, and once that went, (and it always went in one or two volleys), it took damage really rapidly, doesn't change the fact that it punched out an attack ship no problem in one volley, (with the same phasers you claim the Jem'Hdar have adapted to).
I was just pointing out that the Defiant fanboys tend to ignore when the ship fails just as much as you say the Galaxy fans do. The Defiant comes up less here because the in game ship itself is better than the games version of the Galaxy class.
I'm amused when people say that the Galaxy wasn't built for combat, therefor it's not good at fighting. It pretty much ignores how Starfleet designs ships.
I definitely agree with you on most of your points. BTW, I didn't say that the Galaxy class never performed well. I just pointed out that against MOST equal (or lesser) opponents, It didn't do that great of a job collectively. In all of those episodes that I listed (at least the ones where the ship survived) , the Galaxy class took a whoppin' and had to resort to the same "plot armor" to save the ship that the Galaxy fanboys suddenly denounce when it's being applied to another ship. For example, the fact that it took less than 5 SECONDS for a Romulan Warbird to knock down seventy percent of the Ent-D shields and cause appreciable damage ("Tin Man") when they weren't even trying to destroy the Ent-D, while the Ent-D couldn't take down a 20 year old BOP shields after MINUTES of fighting in Generations", shows that the Galaxy Class ship has some serious tactical issues.
Now, compare the last situation to the Defiant in "The Way of The Warrior" in it's fight with a BOP. In its first volley against the BOP it was facing off, two of the first shots missed. The third shot not only punched through the BOP shields, but caused significant damage to it hull, the next volley vaporized the BOP, within 5 seconds.
Also, compare the Prometheus in it's fight with the Romulan Warbird. It was also able to dispatch the Romuilan Warbird in 5 seconds. Again, these are just a couple of examples that showed that other ships can often perform combat duties better than the Galaxy.
The Gallaxy fanboys can complain about "the writers'" all the want, but this is the canon that they have to deal with, and all the mind numbing talk about "phaser array lengths" won't do, and has done, nothing to change the perception of the Galaxy's weaknesses, whether in-game or out.
Now, the series tells a very different story. The excelsior is indeed less advanced and less powerful than the ambassador, and completely outdone by the galaxy and sovereign. No BoP has a hope of defeating a galaxy class on its own, and the dreadnaught most certainly my never had a hangar. Next time you make an argument, go with the facts from the series, not the fiction from the game.
You missed a few things
The Enterprise D did more damage to the hull of the borg cube it encountered than the sovereign and defiiant combined in first contact
Those Bops you speak of were KaVort class battlecruisers not bops
If you went to the technical manuals the phaser arrays and torpedo launchers from a galaxy class have more mass than a total defiant class ship
about those 3 jhas's tht attacked the oddessy they beat on it almost 10 minutes and couldnt take it down....and for the entitre encounter the oddessy had no shields and the jem hadar had something pokey going om that protected them from phaser and torpedo damage that we never saw again
And it was never explained either...poor writing
anything you can put in a small ship you can put more of in a larger ship.........period
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Just because something is designed to do something doesn't mean that it's going to do it well. The problem with the Galaxy Class comes from the TNG episodes themselves, whether it's "Tin Man", "Rascals", "The Jem'Hadar", "Darmok", "The Nth Degree", "Generations", "The Arsenal of Freedom", "Descent Part 2", etc. It definitely didn't live up to it's so-called "battle design". When TNG was on, I would just shake my head at how often this ship was getting it's TRIBBLE handed to it, versus the TOS Enterprise, that stood up remarkably well for the dangers that it faced.
The TOS ship was designed to be a good combat ship, and guess what? It was also SHOWN to be that way, whether it was surviving Nomad's multiple 90 photon torpedo blasts ("The Changeling"), or surviving a pounding from THREE Romulan ships ("The Deadly Years"), there was a sense that the TOS Enterprise was a HIGHLY capable battleship BECAUSE it was SHOWN to be one, and it didn't let itself get slapped around most of the time by lesser or equal opponents, like the Ent-D did FAR too often.
Hull did not and never adapted.......Only shields adapted
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
And yet, the Ent-D was NEVER able to do that much damage to a cube again. It couldn't even put a scratch in the non-Cube "Lore's rengade" Borg ship in "Descent part2", and was quickly whipped and had to tuck its tail and run and hide in a sun until they were able to come up with a non-combat solution to defeat it.
I get that you're a galaxy fanboy but don't make false arguments. The galaxy got some free shots before the borg adapted, and that's why they did so much damage. After that they might as well have been throwing raisins at them.
Actually in generations we don't see or hear it fire that many shots whilst in yesterday's enterprise we see the enterprise take out a BoP despite also putting shots into two other ships. It's hard to be sure how many that specific ship took but i'd guess based on the other's survival that it was the one that ate the torpedo spread. In that case the question is more why didn't the enterprise hit the sisters BoP with a big torpedo spread?
TBH the Gal IMO displays respectable firepower, (not awesome but it never felt under-gunned till the dominion came along), but tends to suffer in shields. It's just that the firepower alone wasn't enough.
I haven't really seen the discussions on them so i can't comment on specifics but i have to call you on one thing.
Show me an example of the defiant getting punched out that doesn't involve it's shields being allready down or being bypassed?
Because off the top of my head i can't think of an example. The defiant got punched out a fair few times, but it never suffered what the gal often did. Which was go into a fight, get hit a few times and then have little or no shields remaining and with major systems damage. The defiant tanks that kind of stuff and repeatedly hit much harder punching out BoP's and Attack ships alike in just a volley or two. That's where the problem for comparison comes from. The Gal regularly gets punched out despite being fully battle ready. with the enemy having no advantage like shield bypass or surprise attacks before they could get the shields up. The defiant on the other hand never gets punched out in that state. So the Defiant failures, whilst present, make plenty of sense because there's an underlying cause beyond "paper shields".
Also got to grab your last comment.
The Galaxy wasn't built to be a dedicated warship, that's a long way from "not built for combat". The defiant is an example of a warship, so are BoP's, they're ships who's entire mass is devoted to to weapons, shields, armor, and the engines, power systems and fuel supplies needed to turn it from a defense platform into a mobile ship. The Galaxy on the other hand has most of it's volume dedicated to cargo bays, shuttle bays, crew and family quarters, supply storage, (mostly matter antimatter), and science labs. It was supposedly at the time launched still the most powerful ship in starfleet. That's not the same though as the most powerful ship it's size. In many ways only it's sheer size made it a danger t it's (much smaller by volume), counterparts in other star faring organisations.
To skip ahead a bit, we have no evidence the attack ships where doing anything weird and in fact we saw them display remarkable toughness through the entire show. The Centaur vs Sisko's attack ship is especially notable as they take over a dozen photon torpedoes, (a weapon TNG repeatedly treated as more powerful than a galaxy's phasers), that's quite in line with the considerable number of shots those attack ships eat.
Likewise just because there's more mass to tactical doesn't mean much in a direct comparison. The defiant is a much newer ship and has a pretty big warp core without anything like as many non-tactical systems sucking power away and can feed power directly off the warp drive which implies a much higher power draw, and thus firepower than prior systems. As for how they got such a huge increase in such a short time? We don't know. My point with the volume thing was to point to the fact that the sheer size of the galaxy means very little because only a small% of it's volume goes to tactical systems. Once you start trying to do actual comparisons to ships of different tech levels you have to factor in those tech level differences as well.
As for Yesterday's enterprise. Their called Kavorts, but they're clearly BoP's in every detail, in particular the Torpedo launcher on the front gives us their actual size. Remember generations throws up the info that there';s many models of BoP, so just because their Kavorts doesn't mean they aren't BoP's. We also have the two BoP's the Ferengi use on the enterprise later on as a comparison point and if anything they outperform the Kavort's. So disregarding Yesterday's enterprise only makes the Gal look even weaker.
Well, we know that the Ent-D was still firing because the Klingon Weapons officer clearly reports to the Duras sisters that "Our Shields are holding" just right before the Ent-D engages the BOP's cloak in order to get the BOP to drop their shields.
The ONLY time in ALL of Star Trek that this kind of statement about shields is EVER made is when something is attacking those said shields.
There was a nebula there not a galaxy. Getting blown up by the Borg is hardly some mark of shame. oh it never shoots like that again, I'm afraid that matters not, it's as canon as everything else, and totally consistent with its other weapons fireing. The rest of that was incomprehensible.
Oh but I can. This claim I made is based on the basics of how arrays operate. All you have to do is watch the moving glow effect on the array before it fires to know how much power is behind the shot. Those 2 shots used a tiny amount of emitters, for a full power shot the pre fire glow would have encompassed the entire array. Compare those 2 shots from the galaxy and the damage they cased to that burst of fire the the defiant fired that disabled the presuming galor when Thomas riker stole it. both left the cardasian ship disabled, both examples probably have similar output.
A galaxy has more volume devoted to its power generation and eps plumbing to its defensive and offensive system then the defiant has total volume. It's main arrays are huge, it's torpedoes launchers are huge, no other ship has larger, so who cares what the rest of the space is used for. The galaxy is mostly modular inside, it can be set up in a number of extremes. Like the Version we saw for 7 years, the yesterday's enterprise warship, or anything in between. Routs warp power through weapons? A load of technobabble nonsense. The warp core makes plasma, the impulse reactors make plasma. The warp drive and weapons run on plasma. The defiant has 4 cannon emitters, the largest array on the galaxy has 200 emitters, all holding their own charge, and the array is able to use the power of all 200 in each shot, or less if desired.
It's been so long since anyone of you watched ds9, other then YouTube battle clips.the battle was staged to deliver a double agent into the federation, after 'rescuing' her.they already knew the federation was that naive and clueless for them to pull it off. Then she disappeared without a trace, ya there was totally no prior infiltration at all. The federation was compromised a week after the worm hole was discovered, and the dominion went out of their way to avoid contact until they had time to get a good look at what was on the other side of that wormhole. You, the viewer, were supposed to realize how compromised the federation was the same time sisko and crew did by the end of the next season.
The canons work different from beams, at least then. Each shot is wrapped in layers of different frequencies to combat Borg adaptation, seems to be enough to harm the bug ships at that point. In the very first battle, 2 runabouts and a galaxy couldn't shoot down 2 bug ships. Late in the war, 1 runabout had the firepower to shoot down a bug. Whatever the problem with the weapons was before, it got solved by the time the war started.
"Chain Of Command" also showed that the Galaxy class has some noticable power limitations and restrictions. When Jellico was actually trying to make the ship more "battle ready", whole shipwide divisions had to be completely shut down. Not just on reduced power, but COMPLETELY shut down. Those science and operational departments take up a LOT of power, so much so , that the ship couldn't be a "battle ship" AND an exploration ship. It had to be one OR the OTHER, but not BOTH. And when it tries to be BOTH, you get the crappy results that are shown in "Rascals", "Darmok", "Tin Man", "Descent part2", The Nth Degree", etc.
As far as the Prometheus goes, it finished off a d'deridex that an akira and 2 defiant had been shooting at for a few minutes already. And that nebula it 'defeated', all they did was knock it out of warp, warp far beyond what it was supposed to be able to safely travel at as it was.
Every time we see d'deridex do well, it's an in and out ambush. When it sticks around and dukes it out they always get torn to shreds it seems.
2. Go whats again, this time with the brightness not set to dimmy dimm dimm dim. It uses the full array, i just checked. It is faint though so seriously get your brightness and contrast maxed;). Also that was a Keldon the Defiant disabled not a Galor. It's got very obvious upgrades, (unlike the BoP issue)
3. Like i said in reply to someone else a post or two ago. The defiant is newer tech than the Galaxy by a good ways, (the ent is 5 years old by the time the defiant is built, the galaxy class itself even older), and doesn't have a bunch of other systems draining it's power. (Depending on the physics of the warp drive and shield system the smaller size could also save a lot of power there, but that's a guess only, i don;t think we ever get an explicit statement as to weather it's total warp field energy or warp field energy density that decide warp speed and shields are even less clear, a similar unanswered question applies to the SIF systems TBH).
Also the show makes a clear distinction on many occasions between ordinary plasma and warp plasma and we see in the late TNG episode in the nacelle pylon that a lot of plasma still goes to the nacelles meaning the Enterprise is only scavenging some of it, not the majority whereas a direct warp power link to the defiant's weapons should mean it can shunt a lot more of the available warp core energy into it's weapons.
4. Actually try just before i posted. In fact you gave the exact rebutal i was going to give. Namely they went to the torubkle of planting a double agent. Why plant a spy if you allready have them. Your argument makes no sense. And most importantly there is no onscreen evidence either in any conversation. In fact in Call to Arms Weyon explicitly states "federation shields have always proven useless against our weapons". He treats their ability to bypass federation shields as an innate property of the weapons, not some special modification, and doesn't once mention attempting to modify they're hack.
@polaronbeam1 Forgot about that, one of the few TNG i rarely re-watch, hate Jellico.
Just because something is built to be a warship doesn't automatically make it stronger than other things. If it was, then the Federation would have been taken over a long time ago since non of their ships are designed as dedicated warships (other than the Defiant and Prometheus) while everyone else they fight has them.
And how much space in a ship is dedicated to something doesn't really matter when the ships are different sizes.
As for the Defiant taking hits, it sure can. But generally during the Dominion war and Deep Space Nine she was taking on ships her size. Other than Galor and Keldons, the Defiant rarely engages and wins against ships outside her size range (usually prefered not to). Unless you have a ridiculously good helmsmen who can make your ship dodge incoming fire. 2 of them and a Akira were used to take on 3 Romulan warbirds, and didn't destroy any (but did do some unknown amount of damage). Of course we barely saw any of that battle. Plus you also need to remember the Valiant, who didn't do so well against a Dominion ship larger than it.
Pointing out where the Galaxy class has had problems in combat doesn't show that the Galaxy class is weaker than the Defiant, only that the Defiant was a good warship. The only direct comparison we have between two Starfleet ships is that the Defiant is as strong as an Excelsior class with unknown upgrades. How strong that Excelsior was compared to a Galaxy class we don't know.
EDIT: Just to dispel this. If there's any ship I'm a fanboy of, it's the Sovereign class.
While the Galaxy is armed with only MK X Phasers, even after the refit during the Dominion war, when they gained additional arrays. Still only armed with X. Though the Sovereign when it was first launched with MK X, but later they were brought back to dock and armed with MK XII. This was during the Dominion war. So... you could say, that both First Contact and maybe Insurrection.
Agreed. Where the hell are the frakking mods? I've already PM'd Bluegeek and that was over a day ago.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Several points. first the Lakota in ds9 wasn't a stock excelsior it was heavily modified and refitted.
Second the defiant was secretly modified too with extra armor added.
on the ambassador class it was able to take on several Romulan warbirds at Narendra III for a fair amount of time. On it vs excelsior if it was a stock ambassador vs a modified Lakota type excelsior I might worry, but again like what has been said before, trying to reconcile canon with pretty much anything in sto will have you facedesking till you go unconscious.
Never ever take sto's ship stats seriously! Eg cryptics Jem'hadar attack (bug) ship of doom.
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