"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Just because something is built to be a warship doesn't automatically make it stronger than other things. If it was, then the Federation would have been taken over a long time ago since non of their ships are designed as dedicated warships (other than the Defiant and Prometheus) while everyone else they fight has them.
And how much space in a ship is dedicated to something doesn't really matter when the ships are different sizes.
As for the Defiant taking hits, it sure can. But generally during the Dominion war and Deep Space Nine she was taking on ships her size. Other than Galor and Keldons, the Defiant rarely engages and wins against ships outside her size range (usually prefered not to). Unless you have a ridiculously good helmsmen who can make your ship dodge incoming fire. 2 of them and a Akira were used to take on 3 Romulan warbirds, and didn't destroy any (but did do some unknown amount of damage). Of course we barely saw any of that battle. Plus you also need to remember the Valiant, who didn't do so well against a Dominion ship larger than it.
Pointing out where the Galaxy class has had problems in combat doesn't show that the Galaxy class is weaker than the Defiant, only that the Defiant was a good warship. The only direct comparison we have between two Starfleet ships is that the Defiant is as strong as an Excelsior class with unknown upgrades. How strong that Excelsior was compared to a Galaxy class we don't know.
EDIT: Just to dispel this. If there's any ship I'm a fanboy of, it's the Sovereign class.
The problem for the Galaxy class is that even when it engaged with much smaller opponents than it, it STILL lost ("Jem'Hadar", "Generations", "Rascals"), while the Defiant was able to handily defeat those same opponents (BOP in "The Way Of The Warrior"; Jem'Hadar in "The Die is Cast"). Now, although in both "The Jem'Hadar" and "Generations", the Galaxy class was without shields, its OFFENSIVE systems couldn't put a dent in either of those ships, even when, in the case of the Odyssey, shield power was transferred to the weapons. It just didn't have enough firepower to get the job done. Sadly, it appeared that the Runabouts fared better in the engagement with the Jem'Hadar than the Odyssey did.
Even the two BOP's in "Rascals" that trounced the Ent-D were the much smaller B'Rel class. Not only were those two "small" ships able to whittle away the Ent-D shields in a matter of SECONDS, the Ent-D phasers were TOTALLY ineffective against those "smaller" ships, only causing minor damage to one, while it (Ent-D) was receiving MAJOR damage after only SECONDS of engagement (loss of primary life support, warp engines, auxiliary power, emergency power, sensors, secondary generators) . Compare this to the Defiant taking shots from numerous BOP's in "The Way of The Warrior", and it's shields held, even before they utilized Worf's modified tractor beam.
So if two B'Rel class ships have enough firepower to easily take out a Galaxy class ship in SECONDS, and yet, the Defiant's shields seem to have no problems under the same circumstances, what conclusion about the Galaxy class crappy tactical performance are we left with?
Ironically, It appears that this disastrous situation with B'Rel type BOP's in "Rascals" was a harbinger of things to come in "Generation", with yet another failure in the offensive capabilities in the Galaxy class.
The Galaxy fanboys (not you) keep arguing how the ship SHOULD be interpreted, while ignoring HOW it was presented. They can keep whining about "it's the writers fault" all they want to, but the bottom line is that the Galaxy class FAR too often got its TRIBBLE kicked by opponents that was much smaller than it.
BTW, how many battles did the Galaxy class win with ships roughly its size vs. how many it was unable to win?
Hey, polaronbeam1, have you ever wondered what getting hit by your namesake feels like?
Because that's where you're headed if you keep posting in a necroed thread.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Okay ket';s go for this. Galaxy is design first for Exploration THEN battle. She does have firepower but not as much as a ship her size can have. Hence after a decade most of the Origianl Galaxys were destroyed and we see the launch of the Sovereign class which is Galaxys opposite. Combat first exploration second. They both in the end follow fed practices of a ship have both peace ans wartime applications. Defiant. is a pure warship and more firepower than a ship her size normally has. It went into a stale mate with lakota which considering refits is just Below an Ambassador. As for the OP. Excelsior while a good and durable ship could nolonger be the flag class in the fleet by the 2330's thus the Ambassador which served that role for about 20 years or so. and considering that Excel fully replaces the connie by 2290 that's a good flag run for a class and the fact it is still used today shows it's toughness. Heck the Sovie is a sucessor in design to her. But even with Lakota Refit she is getting old and the feds are not he KDF is using old refited classes again and again.
It is a grave misassumption that "Exploration" equals sub-par tactical capability just because it doesn't sound "cool enough" or whatever. A Gaalxy Class ship is meant to face the unknown in uncharted territory and most of that will most likely want to murder your face horribly. Given the fact that a ship is designed to face those threats alone it would be foolish to assume that it would be lacking in firepower. Further, the Sovereign class was not designed with "combat first" in mind, that's only a fan assumption because it would be shooting a lot in the movies. The Sovereign is a successor to the Excelsior idea and a very potent heavy cruiser, but it is not more or less of a warship than any other Starfleet vessel. In fact, the design sketches of the Sovy are labeled "Explorer type II" (or "Explorer Mk II"? I can't remember )
Agreed. Where the hell are the frakking mods? I've already PM'd Bluegeek and that was over a day ago.
"Teacher, teacher! He made a mistake!"
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
What are we, four? I started with just yelling at the necro'er in this thread. I went to bluegeek after the thing started to smell of necrotic flesh (in English, after it hit three pages after the necro).
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Replaced as the Fleet's Flagship class. Her hull design is too useful to fully get rid of yet. Note the Connie and the Exscel served a couple decades before the Connie was phased out
The Excelsior class was only in line service for a few years before the NCC-1701-A was decommissioned. And the U.S.S. Excelsior was the only one in existence (that we know of) prior to the NCC-1701-B.
And the Constitution class (Refit) continued to serve at least into the 2360s. It was replaced as the "face" of the Fleet by the Excelsior class. But they continued to serve in some capacity, including dangerous long term exploration missions, well into the 24th Century.
The Enterprise D did more damage to the hull of the borg cube it encountered than the sovereign and defiiant combined in first contact
The was at System J-25 in 2365.
In the Borg incursion of 2366-67, things were a bit different. In the Enterprise's engagement with the Borg, when it was investigating the loss of the U.S.S. Lalo, it's weapons barely touched the cube (despite unleashing some heavy duty barrages). The only reason they knocked out the tractor beam was because of quick thinking by Elizabeth Shelby.
Admiral J.P. Hanson's flagship at Wolf 359 was an unnamed Galaxy class starship. It was destroyed by the Borg.
In the time since the J-25 incident, the Borg obviously adapted. It doesn't reflect poorly on the Galaxy class, since nothing Starfleet threw at the Borg survived in a stand up fight. They ended up winning because of brains, and good old fashioned sneakiness (used the Borg's greatest asset, Picard, against them).
What are we, four? I started with just yelling at the necro'er in this thread. I went to bluegeek after the thing started to smell of necrotic flesh (in English, after it hit three pages after the necro).
And what is your personal gain if we close down this thread and create the exact same thread next to it? Are you personally offended by a thread with a old creation date?
(...)
In the time since the J-25 incident, the Borg obviously adapted. It doesn't reflect poorly on the Galaxy class, since nothing Starfleet threw at the Borg survived in a stand up fight. They ended up winning because of brains, and good old fashioned sneakiness (used the Borg's greatest asset, Picard, against them).
That's right. The original purpose of the Borg was to show that the overdependance of technology is a one-way and that the Borg could not be beaten with firepower. A shame they decided to make them generic villians later on.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The Excelsior class was only in line service for a few years before the NCC-1701-A was decommissioned. And the U.S.S. Excelsior was the only one in existence (that we know of) prior to the NCC-1701-B.
And the Constitution class (Refit) continued to serve at least into the 2360s. It was replaced as the "face" of the Fleet by the Excelsior class. But they continued to serve in some capacity, including dangerous long term exploration missions, well into the 24th Century.
In the Borg incursion of 2366-67, things were a bit different. In the Enterprise's engagement with the Borg, when it was investigating the loss of the U.S.S. Lalo, it's weapons barely touched the cube (despite unleashing some heavy duty barrages). The only reason they knocked out the tractor beam was because of quick thinking by Elizabeth Shelby.
Admiral J.P. Hanson's flagship at Wolf 359 was an unnamed Galaxy class starship. It was destroyed by the Borg.
Admiral hansons flagship was a excelsior class battleship
they showed it in orbit with the Enterprse when Hanson droped off shelby to Picard
In the time since the J-25 incident, the Borg obviously adapted. It doesn't reflect poorly on the Galaxy class, since nothing Starfleet threw at the Borg survived in a stand up fight. They ended up winning because of brains, and good old fashioned sneakiness (used the Borg's greatest asset, Picard, against them).
The borg adapted there shields to mimnize damage from phasers and photons after the first contact with the enterprose ...However the Armor/Hull never showed and adapttion that i ever saw
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The borg adapted there shields to mimnize damage from phasers and photons after the first contact with the enterprose ...However the Armor/Hull never showed and adapttion that i ever saw
Which is beside the point, since none of the Enterprise's weapons managed to get through to the cube's hull. That is, until Shelby had Data randomize the phaser frequencies, and knock out the tractor beam. But that would be considered minor damage, at best.
I also think that we can safely assume that the cube's physical regenerative abilities remain there. We just, as you pointed out, didn't see it in "The Best of Both Worlds".
Admiral hansons flagship was a excelsior class battleship
they showed it in orbit with the Enterprse when Hanson droped off shelby to Picard
Hanson returned to Starbase 324 before the Battle of Wolf 359. And the final shooting script states that his flagship was a Galaxy, which is further supported by his last transmission coming from a Galaxy class battle bridge.
I seem to remember the cubes hull blasted to the point the cube was disabled........25 to 30% of the hull destroyed
A away team boarded the disabled cube
perhaps were talking about differnt episodes I am refering to the first encounter
My point was the effectiviness against the borgs hull not there adaptive shields...the hull
I never read a script........just watched the shows
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
That's right. The original purpose of the Borg was to show that the overdependance of technology is a one-way and that the Borg could not be beaten with firepower. A shame they decided to make them generic villians later on.
That purpose was apparently undermined when they attacked the problem with more techno-babble instead of breaking out the AK-47s and battleaxes.
I seem to remember the cubes hull blasted to the point the cube was disabled........25 to 30% of the hull destroyed
A away team boarded the disabled cube
perhaps were talking about differnt episodes I am refering to the first encounter
My point was the effectiviness against the borgs hull not there adaptive shields...the hull
I never read a script........just watched the shows
You must be talking about the episode "Q Who", rather than "The Best of Both Worlds".
I'm talking about the latter. The Borg Incursion of 2366-2367.
In that instance, the cube was barely touched. Hull damage doesn't matter if you can't get to it, to inflict damage, in the first place.
In regards to Borg damage control ability, in "Q Who", the cube's hull rapidly regenerated. And the Borg, as seen in "The Best of Both Worlds", had adapted thanks to their encounter at J-25. Even if we didn't see it in that episode, one can safely assume that the Borg made improvements in the hulls of their cube ships. Or at least they did before the Battle of Sector 001 in 2373.
To be honest, the Ent-E and the Defiant barely scratched the hull of the cube in First Contact on their own. It was the combined effort of an unknown number of ships fighting from the Typhoon Sector that did that. Starfleet had definitely upgraded their ships at that point, likely including the existing ones, over what the fleet was like at 359.
That purpose was apparently undermined when they attacked the problem with more techno-babble instead of breaking out the AK-47s and battleaxes.
The solution to the Borg situation was the human element rather than more violence. A unpopular choice these days, I'm very well aware of that.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Hanson returned to Starbase 324 before the Battle of Wolf 359. And the final shooting script states that his flagship was a Galaxy, which is further supported by his last transmission coming from a Galaxy class battle bridge.
The problem there though is the fact that bridge is also used for other fed bridges and alien ones when they need it. It's the old TMP bridge. and Hanson's bridge didn't look like the battle bridge Enterprise used. So the script may say that but in truth He was on an Excelsior because I didn't see Galaxy debris and why would that galaxy be so close Earth at the time. by reord there is 3 Galaxys active at the time. Galaxy, Oddyessy, and Enterprise.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Okay folks, dunno why we have to go over this with a lot of you knowing the rules -
Threads that are over 30 days old should NOT be replied to, they should be reported.
As such, this thread is closed.
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— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The problem for the Galaxy class is that even when it engaged with much smaller opponents than it, it STILL lost ("Jem'Hadar", "Generations", "Rascals"), while the Defiant was able to handily defeat those same opponents (BOP in "The Way Of The Warrior"; Jem'Hadar in "The Die is Cast"). Now, although in both "The Jem'Hadar" and "Generations", the Galaxy class was without shields, its OFFENSIVE systems couldn't put a dent in either of those ships, even when, in the case of the Odyssey, shield power was transferred to the weapons. It just didn't have enough firepower to get the job done. Sadly, it appeared that the Runabouts fared better in the engagement with the Jem'Hadar than the Odyssey did.
Even the two BOP's in "Rascals" that trounced the Ent-D were the much smaller B'Rel class. Not only were those two "small" ships able to whittle away the Ent-D shields in a matter of SECONDS, the Ent-D phasers were TOTALLY ineffective against those "smaller" ships, only causing minor damage to one, while it (Ent-D) was receiving MAJOR damage after only SECONDS of engagement (loss of primary life support, warp engines, auxiliary power, emergency power, sensors, secondary generators) . Compare this to the Defiant taking shots from numerous BOP's in "The Way of The Warrior", and it's shields held, even before they utilized Worf's modified tractor beam.
So if two B'Rel class ships have enough firepower to easily take out a Galaxy class ship in SECONDS, and yet, the Defiant's shields seem to have no problems under the same circumstances, what conclusion about the Galaxy class crappy tactical performance are we left with?
Ironically, It appears that this disastrous situation with B'Rel type BOP's in "Rascals" was a harbinger of things to come in "Generation", with yet another failure in the offensive capabilities in the Galaxy class.
The Galaxy fanboys (not you) keep arguing how the ship SHOULD be interpreted, while ignoring HOW it was presented. They can keep whining about "it's the writers fault" all they want to, but the bottom line is that the Galaxy class FAR too often got its TRIBBLE kicked by opponents that was much smaller than it.
BTW, how many battles did the Galaxy class win with ships roughly its size vs. how many it was unable to win?
Because that's where you're headed if you keep posting in a necroed thread.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
It is a grave misassumption that "Exploration" equals sub-par tactical capability just because it doesn't sound "cool enough" or whatever. A Gaalxy Class ship is meant to face the unknown in uncharted territory and most of that will most likely want to murder your face horribly. Given the fact that a ship is designed to face those threats alone it would be foolish to assume that it would be lacking in firepower. Further, the Sovereign class was not designed with "combat first" in mind, that's only a fan assumption because it would be shooting a lot in the movies. The Sovereign is a successor to the Excelsior idea and a very potent heavy cruiser, but it is not more or less of a warship than any other Starfleet vessel. In fact, the design sketches of the Sovy are labeled "Explorer type II" (or "Explorer Mk II"? I can't remember
Nothing to add to the rest of your post, though.
"Teacher, teacher! He made a mistake!"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
What are we, four? I started with just yelling at the necro'er in this thread. I went to bluegeek after the thing started to smell of necrotic flesh (in English, after it hit three pages after the necro).
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The Excelsior class was only in line service for a few years before the NCC-1701-A was decommissioned. And the U.S.S. Excelsior was the only one in existence (that we know of) prior to the NCC-1701-B.
And the Constitution class (Refit) continued to serve at least into the 2360s. It was replaced as the "face" of the Fleet by the Excelsior class. But they continued to serve in some capacity, including dangerous long term exploration missions, well into the 24th Century.
@jellico1
The was at System J-25 in 2365.
In the Borg incursion of 2366-67, things were a bit different. In the Enterprise's engagement with the Borg, when it was investigating the loss of the U.S.S. Lalo, it's weapons barely touched the cube (despite unleashing some heavy duty barrages). The only reason they knocked out the tractor beam was because of quick thinking by Elizabeth Shelby.
Admiral J.P. Hanson's flagship at Wolf 359 was an unnamed Galaxy class starship. It was destroyed by the Borg.
In the time since the J-25 incident, the Borg obviously adapted. It doesn't reflect poorly on the Galaxy class, since nothing Starfleet threw at the Borg survived in a stand up fight. They ended up winning because of brains, and good old fashioned sneakiness (used the Borg's greatest asset, Picard, against them).
And what is your personal gain if we close down this thread and create the exact same thread next to it? Are you personally offended by a thread with a old creation date?
That's right. The original purpose of the Borg was to show that the overdependance of technology is a one-way and that the Borg could not be beaten with firepower. A shame they decided to make them generic villians later on.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
The borg adapted there shields to mimnize damage from phasers and photons after the first contact with the enterprose ...However the Armor/Hull never showed and adapttion that i ever saw
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Which is beside the point, since none of the Enterprise's weapons managed to get through to the cube's hull. That is, until Shelby had Data randomize the phaser frequencies, and knock out the tractor beam. But that would be considered minor damage, at best.
I also think that we can safely assume that the cube's physical regenerative abilities remain there. We just, as you pointed out, didn't see it in "The Best of Both Worlds".
Hanson returned to Starbase 324 before the Battle of Wolf 359. And the final shooting script states that his flagship was a Galaxy, which is further supported by his last transmission coming from a Galaxy class battle bridge.
I seem to remember the cubes hull blasted to the point the cube was disabled........25 to 30% of the hull destroyed
A away team boarded the disabled cube
perhaps were talking about differnt episodes I am refering to the first encounter
My point was the effectiviness against the borgs hull not there adaptive shields...the hull
I never read a script........just watched the shows
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
You must be talking about the episode "Q Who", rather than "The Best of Both Worlds".
I'm talking about the latter. The Borg Incursion of 2366-2367.
In that instance, the cube was barely touched. Hull damage doesn't matter if you can't get to it, to inflict damage, in the first place.
In regards to Borg damage control ability, in "Q Who", the cube's hull rapidly regenerated. And the Borg, as seen in "The Best of Both Worlds", had adapted thanks to their encounter at J-25. Even if we didn't see it in that episode, one can safely assume that the Borg made improvements in the hulls of their cube ships. Or at least they did before the Battle of Sector 001 in 2373.
The solution to the Borg situation was the human element rather than more violence. A unpopular choice these days, I'm very well aware of that.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
The problem there though is the fact that bridge is also used for other fed bridges and alien ones when they need it. It's the old TMP bridge. and Hanson's bridge didn't look like the battle bridge Enterprise used. So the script may say that but in truth He was on an Excelsior because I didn't see Galaxy debris and why would that galaxy be so close Earth at the time. by reord there is 3 Galaxys active at the time. Galaxy, Oddyessy, and Enterprise.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
just for you a post :P
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