The miranda isn't a better ship then the connie. It's smaller and weaker. The only reason the reliant hurt the enterprise was because of the suprise attack; not to mention that the enterprise was staffed by cadets on a training mission.
The stargazer is also a contemporary of the excelsior. The constellation appeared in 2285 and the excelsior in 2287. The excelsior was made the enterprise b in 2293. They're 2 different ships with 2 entirely different purposes. Even picard described the stargazer as underpowered and overworked.
actually, the miranda was a more combat oriented design. from ST2, the top mounted phasers from the nacelle armature indicates it may very well be an indication of Starfleet's experimentation of a from the drawing board warp enhanced phaser bank. also, it has an aft firing torpedo, something the Constitution lacks.
actually, the miranda was a more combat oriented design. from ST2, the top mounted phasers from the nacelle armature indicates it may very well be an indication of Starfleet's experimentation of a from the drawing board warp enhanced phaser bank. also, it has an aft firing torpedo, something the Constitution lacks.
The miranda was categorized as a science and supply ship. The constitution refit from tmp also had equal phaser banks as well as for and aft torpedoes. At the time the 2 ships went into combat the connie was still far better.
The Excelsior is superior to most other vessels in STO because the devs considered it "cooler", that's all. And I'm not making this up, it's a quote by Al Rivera.
STO doesn't feature any rhyme or reason, nor does it try. They just want to show as much of what we saw on-screen as possible and most of the ships which were in the game from the beginning were designed to cater the classic fantasy RPG trinity of mage, rogue and warrior. Since they abandoned that concept in favour of an all-out dps arcade shooting game the old ships are naturally rendered obsolete - the only ship "saved" is the Excelsior for reasons stated above
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Then again, the Scimitars canon weapons are many, but they are not very powerful compared to phaser arrays. The scimitar is a fragile super weapon with dozens of small petty turrets acting as point defense which is compared to phaser arrays and even beam emitters some rather backwards technology. And Scorpions are most likely orbital craft.
It is a big misassumption that bigger numbers equal more firepower. The Galaxy Class has 11 phaser arrays, the Intrepid class features 18. The Galaxy, however, features two huge arrays on the saucer while the intrepid features many small, separated arrays to cover blind spots - blind spots the Galaxy doesn't have due to the superior saucer design which makes for a superior field of fire and better use of the supposedly much stronger weapon arrays.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
By looking at the Excelsior (ST III era) vs. Ambassador (TNG era). According to *canon*, the Ambassador was designed to replace the aging Excelsior. OK, understood, but a close inspection between both ships reveals quite the opposite.
. "Slightly" greater hull
. 3 Science slots (is this somehow supposed to make up for lack of Tac slots)?
The Excelsior will out-gun, out maneuver, go faster, and than its' younger sister. Can anyone explain why Starfleet would even bother building an inferior ship to replace an older, superior one?
Constructive criticism, thoughts, concerns, ideas, opinions are welcome. Let's provide a thesis either way.
I think that starfleet didnt have back then the aux2bat dem marion available:eek:
Lol & thread title. An ambassador would have the firepower of both the Lakota and defiant combined. It could prolly go toe to toe with both ships 2v1. And then the galaxy has the firepower of the ambassador, Lakota and defiant. Sto is just dead wrong about ships, it really is shocking
STO doesnt use canon...........not even a little bit
The Technical manuals prove this
There isnt anything Canon in STO except how some of the ships look ...and thats all
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
By looking at the Excelsior (ST III era) vs. Ambassador (TNG era). According to *canon*, the Ambassador was designed to replace the aging Excelsior. OK, understood, but a close inspection between both ships reveals quite the opposite.
. "Slightly" greater hull
. 3 Science slots (is this somehow supposed to make up for lack of Tac slots)?
The Excelsior will out-gun, out maneuver, go faster, and than its' younger sister. Can anyone explain why Starfleet would even bother building an inferior ship to replace an older, superior one?
Constructive criticism, thoughts, concerns, ideas, opinions are welcome. Let's provide a thesis either way.
Backround, i am in real life an engineer specializing in manufacturing tech.
the excelsior is all large solid parts, as opposed to every other starfleet ship which is a collection of small parts held together mostly with structural integrity fields. if a starfleet ship (and most other peoples ships) lost its SIF field generator it would kind of flop about like a deflating balloon, except for the excelsior.
the reason this is important is because it makes the excelsior very expensive to manufacture, with large specialized shipyards and manufacturing facilities that can build nothing else because nothing else is built like this.
why build it at all if you can get larger ship with further range at less than half the production costs with already existing infrastructure? because the excelsior was designed to handle the stresses of transwarp drive, and is to date the only starfleet ship capable of routinely handling the stress without blowing out a transwarp coil.
this makes the ship incredibly viable now, but before we reverse engineered transwarp from old borg tech (ty USS Voyager) it was just a large cruiser that was incredibly expensive to build. hence the ambassador, galaxy, and sovereign classes. the ambassador and galaxy are examples of what you can build at lesser or equal cost of production using different building techniques and existing infrastructure, and the sovereign is clearly a low cost excelsior replacement ship with a few more guns, a few less shuttle bays, and at 1/4 the cost.
why are there so many excelsior's if there so damn expensive? starfleet knew transwarp would work out eventually, and having a large number of transwarp capable warship hulls available would eventually pay off, which it apparently did. in the short term it was a battleship of its day effectively disguised as a constitution 3.0
why is the excelsior still a viable ship despite its age? it has a warp core at least 4x the size of a soverign, and thus 4x the power output, assuming equal tech of course.
why the ambassador despite all this? she has an even bigger warp core, longer range and duration of cruise and patrols, and stronger shields and weapons due to the larger powerplant.
her longer range made her more suited for exploration, hence the sci focus relative to her little sister.
*shoots edalgo and charon2 in the foot for continuing to post in necroed thread.*
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
if the game had it REALLY right, by Canon it would go:
NX
Connie
Miranda
Excelsior
Cheyenne/Stargazer
Ambassador
Galaxy
Sovvy
Oddy
Don't you know the rules of Internet Forums? All company names and other proper nouns need to be shortened and end in a 'y' or an 'ie'. I am not sure of the proper Name Game rules to determine which would get the 'y' and which the 'ie'. I know I have seen 'Amby' used on the forums. The others maybe could be:
NXie
Mirandy
Excelie
Chey
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The Cheyenne-class studio model was a "kitbash" design study and filming model designed by Ed Miarecki and Michael Okuda and built by Miarecki for the graveyard scene in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II." It used parts from the smaller scale AMT/Ertl USS Enterprise-D model kit saucer section, a bridge module from the larger Enterprise kit, and commercially-available highlighter markers for warp nacelles.
The ship didn't EXIST canonically anywhere outside of the Wolf 359 graveyard. It's not a real functioning ship, it's just filler space debris.
Remember folks, up until the very end Trek was a LOW BUDGET show. The space battles were created using film of physical models... this was before computer generation even existed. In order to be within budget constraints a LOT of kitbashing was done.
There are several "classes" of starship said to exist based on the Wolf 359 debris field... reality is, they didn't... they weren't ever meant to be anything other than floating junk, they're horrendously ugly and violate several core Trek principles... we need to stay AWAY from them.
Then again, the Scimitars canon weapons are many, but they are not very powerful compared to phaser arrays. The scimitar is a fragile super weapon with dozens of small petty turrets acting as point defense which is compared to phaser arrays and even beam emitters some rather backwards technology. And Scorpions are most likely orbital craft.
We don't know that for a fact. In fact given how it's treated by both Worf and Picard in the movie and how easily it dispatches both warbirds i don't think it holds up to any scrutiny whatsoever. Worf wouldn't have that awed WTF tone, Picard wouldn't be acting like it's incredibly well armed and it wouldn't have obliterated both warbirds so idilly once it got a good firing position. Yes it didn't obliterate the enterprise that quickly. But bear in mind that they also never used a RoF even close to what it did on the warbirds, (Donatra's warbird is particuarly relevent as the FX all origionate from one location indicating it was one disrupter on Rapid fire thus proving that the anemic Ro of the rest wasn't due to actual limit's of the cannons). Which given it was trying to disable the enterprise without causing serious damage, (and thus risking killing picard), isn't surprising. Compare the Enterprise D in Best of Both Worlds to it's shooting match with the Galor in The Wounded. In the latter it uses several volleys from a single phaser bank, in the Former it goes all out with 3 phaser banks and multiple torpedo volley's. If Shinzon had been trying to blow the enterprise up right from the start, (instead of deciding to after getting rammed), i doubt Picard would have even got to the bridge before it obliterated the enterprise. In particular note how despite his low RoF he still knocks out shield facings, (until the ent crew can scavenge power from elsewhere anyway), in a handful of shots. That's not low power shooting and probably indicates the romulan warbirds where nearly as well shielded as the Enterprise, they just didn't get break in the pounding to reinforce shields.
As for the thread main topic. Was gonna go into this in the big Gal thread but this will do.
First and foremost remember that the Excel refit is based on the Lackota. A design that stood toe to toe with the defiant, a ship that quite clearly crapped on the Gal's tactical capabilities by a huge Margin. But where never told what it gave up to get those capabilities, (basic engineering dictates there was some tradeoff even accounting for newer tech level upgrades). The Ambassador in it's few appearances is generally treated as a capable, but second rate tactical platform compared to the Galaxy. Though it gets so few it's hard to be sure, though i believe cannon out of show info also pegged it at a lower level.
Now i'm sure everyone will go: But the T5's are nearly all retrofits, like the Lakota!
Yes they are, but the Lakota was explicitly refitted with heavy duty tactical capabilities. By not upgrading the tactical systems at all or as much they could have used that internal volume and power those upgrades consumed for other things. That's the point of the Ambassador Refit and Gal Refit. They haven't put as much, (though i'm sure they put some), effort into the tactical side. Instead they focused on other area's. Both appears to be of very simila design based on known parameter's, being multi-mission vessel's. Whilst each was undoubtedly at the time of Launch the best armed class in the fleet, they also posses immense cargo space and science lab space, (the Gal in particular is shown as being able to carry out any science mission the Federation does, upto and including solo explorations of entire unexplored sectors, as well as providing planetary levels of disaster relief aid, moderate scale planetary evacuation capability, the ability to provide full solo support for colony efforts, and a rated 7 year endurance without resupply, (Voyager was 2 AFIK), and it does all that despite the cubage, power, and supply overheads of all those amilies). Thus whilst they are well armed, it very obviously not even close to where the majority of their volume and power output is going. They have way too many other capabilities taking space and power both for that to be the case. So when their refit's focused on those extra capabilities they rather naturally didn't get a massive tactical upgrade at the same time.
To be fair the only reason the Gal doesn't hold up is because of how gimped Engineering abilities are overall. Been thinking of writing a long essay on that. I'd also argue that the Gal's sci capabilities are seriously under represented. You also have to bear in mind that there's a degree of role enforce layout going on. Base don the Lakota the Excel refit really should have even more tac ability than it does, but because it's a cruiser it has an enforce minimum eng capability. This because of how weak Eng abilities are, and most sci too tend to bite them in the TRIBBLE.
The Constellation, Nebula, Cheyenne... all kitbash starships in TNG. The 4 nacelled ones were models... the Nebula was built first as a filming model then had a TNG Galaxy model modded to be a desktop decoration.
But anyways... TNG did not exactly break the Ambassador Class model - it still had the markings from DS9's pilot episode... as the USS Yamaguchi when it was sold by Christie's.
I wonder why the Sovvy didn't enter the Domminion War with the firepower as what was said?
I assume she did. So did the Enterprise.
There just were not many ships of that class around and a lot more battles then we saw. They just were not involved in any of the 3 battles we saw.
Greyhame is correct. They held the class for movies only. But they did explain things in canon though. If I remember correctly, if you bring all the sources together, during the Dominion War, there was only 4 Sovereign Class ships in service (including the E), with a half a dozen in production and they were all held from front line service as they were still an untested class in most cases.
Not Lakota was an experiment to beef up the Excel, so most excels during D W would be the standard version of the excel type in the 2370's so if Lakota was a standard Excel of that time and went against the defiant the defiant would have clearly won, if taken to the end. but the fight would have been over earlier than it was in that episode. To the Universe the Excel is the workhorse of the fleet. Note the Klingons feel less inclinded to make new ships. "If it works don't fix it" seems to be the KDF motto and the smallest house can afford a small fleet of BOP and Ktingas
Do you REALLY think the militaries of Star Trek would not upgrade / refit existing ships when they can as time and technology has progressed?
They do.
The Excelsior-class ships that still served from Kirk's time and into the Dominion War did get their refits.
Even Miranda light cruisers got refitted with new equipment. For instance, compare their phaser fire from Wrath of Khan to how they fired in the DS9 / Dominion War. In TWOK, the Phasers fired in very fast, phased pulses (canon like in a way). In DS9, they fired standard Phaser fire of the time, beams.
If nobody upgraded their ships, the VERY, VERY OLD Klingon B'Rel BOPs have been tearing it up from Kirk's time and into the Dominion War with no upgrades.
I'm not saying the old ships are on the same par as newer vessels. After all, they are typically smaller ships and ship designs have gotten larger in Star Trek, as well as newer, better, advanced shipbuilding techniques learned over time (as they do in real life). But they're not slouches with upgrades, and these upgrades allow them to perform duties in a modern setting. Not on the same par as their successors, but they can do the job still.
First and foremost remember that the Excel refit is based on the Lackota. A design that stood toe to toe with the defiant, a ship that quite clearly crapped on the Gal's tactical capabilities by a huge Margin. But where never told what it gave up to get those capabilities, (basic engineering dictates there was some tradeoff even accounting for newer tech level upgrades). The Ambassador in it's few appearances is generally treated as a capable, but second rate tactical platform compared to the Galaxy. Though it gets so few it's hard to be sure, though i believe cannon out of show info also pegged it at a lower level.
Now i'm sure everyone will go: But the T5's are nearly all retrofits, like the Lakota!
Yes they are, but the Lakota was explicitly refitted with heavy duty tactical capabilities. By not upgrading the tactical systems at all or as much they could have used that internal volume and power those upgrades consumed for other things. That's the point of the Ambassador Refit and Gal Refit. They haven't put as much, (though i'm sure they put some), effort into the tactical side. Instead they focused on other area's. Both appears to be of very simila design based on known parameter's, being multi-mission vessel's. Whilst each was undoubtedly at the time of Launch the best armed class in the fleet, they also posses immense cargo space and science lab space, (the Gal in particular is shown as being able to carry out any science mission the Federation does, upto and including solo explorations of entire unexplored sectors, as well as providing planetary levels of disaster relief aid, moderate scale planetary evacuation capability, the ability to provide full solo support for colony efforts, and a rated 7 year endurance without resupply, (Voyager was 2 AFIK), and it does all that despite the cubage, power, and supply overheads of all those amilies). Thus whilst they are well armed, it very obviously not even close to where the majority of their volume and power output is going. They have way too many other capabilities taking space and power both for that to be the case. So when their refit's focused on those extra capabilities they rather naturally didn't get a massive tactical upgrade at the same time.
To be fair the only reason the Gal doesn't hold up is because of how gimped Engineering abilities are overall. Been thinking of writing a long essay on that. I'd also argue that the Gal's sci capabilities are seriously under represented. You also have to bear in mind that there's a degree of role enforce layout going on. Base don the Lakota the Excel refit really should have even more tac ability than it does, but because it's a cruiser it has an enforce minimum eng capability. This because of how weak Eng abilities are, and most sci too tend to bite them in the TRIBBLE.
Ah, the extremely flawed logic that is behind the tier 5 excelsior. The defiant and Lakota are 3rd stringers at best, the fact that an old excelsior can match the defiant does not prove that Lakota>galaxy. Because the defiant, though powerful for its size, happens to be extremely tiny, and everything modern and intrepid sized or larger easily outguns the defiant. No ship in canon has displayed shows of force or damage per shot that match what the galaxy has displayed, not even the sovereign.
And about warp cores, what exactly does hight signify? Those just feed the mater and antimatter into the combustion chamber in the center. If anything, the volume of the combustion chamber would be the closest thing to indicating power output. The height of the core always just seems to connect the deuterium storage tank with the antimatter pods, the core is the single component that connects these 2 fuels.
No ship in canon has displayed shows of force or damage per shot that match what the galaxy has displayed, not even the sovereign.
I would say the Enterprise-E did in Nemesis.
If I remember me correctly even Gul Dukat said that the Defiant is one of the most heavily armed warships of the quadrant so I would not call her a 3rd stringer.
While the Galaxy we have not really seen a lot of what she can or can't do during the Dominion War.
The best scene were tow Galaxy class starships against a Galor, while the damage wasn't to bad, a squad of Peregrine Fighters was able to do more damage in the same episode.
The Peregines destroyed nearly the entire top section of that Galor.
If I remember me correctly even Gul Dukat said that the Defiant is one of the most heavily armed warships of the quadrant so I would not call her a 3rd stringer.
While the Galaxy we have not really seen a lot of what she can or can't do during the Dominion War.
The best scene were tow Galaxy class starships against a Galor, while the damage wasn't to bad, a squad of Peregrine Fighters was able to do more damage in the same episode.
The Peregines destroyed nearly the entire top section of that Galor.
I really don't understand why anyone in the ST universe builds anything larger than shuttles, since following your argumentation those are far superior to capital ships
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I really don't understand why anyone in the ST universe builds anything larger than shuttles, since following your argumentation those are far superior to capital ships
Indeed, but now serious it looks like those shuttles have a bigger punch than a Galaxy.
No ship in canon has displayed shows of force or damage per shot that match what the galaxy has displayed, not even the sovereign.
You mean the same Galaxy that with shield power to weapon put dozens of shots into a jemh'dar attack ship and didn't even get through the shields whilst the defiant with full shield power to shields regularly punches them out in one shot. That Gal. Sorry but your wrong.
Your trying to justify a position that isn't supported by the actual on screen evidence. Nowhere is the Galaxy (in the few direct comparisons we can make), ever shown to have the kind of firepower your claiming.
Equally compare the Enterprises late season performance against those two ferengi crewed BoP's. A few volleys and the enterprise has no shields, (even the yesterday's enterprise Ent D got punched out by 3 BoP pretty rapidly whilst doing only modest damage in return). During Sisko's Rescue of the Detapa council they take on 3 and come out ahead with 2 down and no mention of serious shield damage, and that's on top of eating a bunch of fire to the shields from a Vorcha. Something similar happens during the dominon war. When those remote powered orbital weapon platforms come online and start shredding stuff they punch out the lights federation ships completely, punch out the Gal's shields, (but the sheer excess non-critical system hull volume appears to keep it from being destroyed outright in the first volley), whilst the defiant eats hits to the shields and comes out with intact shields and no visible hull damage. The Defiant is clearly also much better shielded.
It quite obvious that Size has no real bearing on the effectiveness of starfleet vessels. Which is no surprise. As i pointed out the Gals have huge endurance, huge shuttlebays, huge cargo bays, huge crews, and huge science systems eating lots of space and power both. Most of it's mass and volume is dedicated to non-combat system. I have a few theories on the topic beyond the above on screen stuff as well, but their only loosely, (implied but never directly stated), supported on screen, but if you want to hear them i'll happily elaborate.
Comments
actually, the miranda was a more combat oriented design. from ST2, the top mounted phasers from the nacelle armature indicates it may very well be an indication of Starfleet's experimentation of a from the drawing board warp enhanced phaser bank. also, it has an aft firing torpedo, something the Constitution lacks.
STO doesn't feature any rhyme or reason, nor does it try. They just want to show as much of what we saw on-screen as possible and most of the ships which were in the game from the beginning were designed to cater the classic fantasy RPG trinity of mage, rogue and warrior. Since they abandoned that concept in favour of an all-out dps arcade shooting game the old ships are naturally rendered obsolete - the only ship "saved" is the Excelsior for reasons stated above
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Sovereign Class Vessel
16 Phaser Arrays
4 Foreward Torpedo Launchers
6 Aft Torpedo Launchers
Scimitar Type Vessel
52 pulse disruptor cannons
27 photon/plasma torpedo launchers
40+ Scorpion Attack Fighters
20+ Projectile Launchers
thalaron cascading biogenic pulse weapon
oh yes I can see why this is not in the game...
Admiral Sovak
Does anyone remember when we used to be explorers...
Then again, the Scimitars canon weapons are many, but they are not very powerful compared to phaser arrays. The scimitar is a fragile super weapon with dozens of small petty turrets acting as point defense which is compared to phaser arrays and even beam emitters some rather backwards technology. And Scorpions are most likely orbital craft.
It is a big misassumption that bigger numbers equal more firepower. The Galaxy Class has 11 phaser arrays, the Intrepid class features 18. The Galaxy, however, features two huge arrays on the saucer while the intrepid features many small, separated arrays to cover blind spots - blind spots the Galaxy doesn't have due to the superior saucer design which makes for a superior field of fire and better use of the supposedly much stronger weapon arrays.
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I think that starfleet didnt have back then the aux2bat dem marion available:eek:
The Ambassador would have butthurt a Excelsior
just like a galaxy would do to a Ambassador
A Galaxy would Rollstomp a Excelsior
STO doesnt use canon...........not even a little bit
The Technical manuals prove this
There isnt anything Canon in STO except how some of the ships look ...and thats all
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
If you dont like the thread
Dont read it
Move long this isnt the thread your looking for
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Backround, i am in real life an engineer specializing in manufacturing tech.
the excelsior is all large solid parts, as opposed to every other starfleet ship which is a collection of small parts held together mostly with structural integrity fields. if a starfleet ship (and most other peoples ships) lost its SIF field generator it would kind of flop about like a deflating balloon, except for the excelsior.
the reason this is important is because it makes the excelsior very expensive to manufacture, with large specialized shipyards and manufacturing facilities that can build nothing else because nothing else is built like this.
why build it at all if you can get larger ship with further range at less than half the production costs with already existing infrastructure? because the excelsior was designed to handle the stresses of transwarp drive, and is to date the only starfleet ship capable of routinely handling the stress without blowing out a transwarp coil.
this makes the ship incredibly viable now, but before we reverse engineered transwarp from old borg tech (ty USS Voyager) it was just a large cruiser that was incredibly expensive to build. hence the ambassador, galaxy, and sovereign classes. the ambassador and galaxy are examples of what you can build at lesser or equal cost of production using different building techniques and existing infrastructure, and the sovereign is clearly a low cost excelsior replacement ship with a few more guns, a few less shuttle bays, and at 1/4 the cost.
why are there so many excelsior's if there so damn expensive? starfleet knew transwarp would work out eventually, and having a large number of transwarp capable warship hulls available would eventually pay off, which it apparently did. in the short term it was a battleship of its day effectively disguised as a constitution 3.0
why is the excelsior still a viable ship despite its age? it has a warp core at least 4x the size of a soverign, and thus 4x the power output, assuming equal tech of course.
why the ambassador despite all this? she has an even bigger warp core, longer range and duration of cruise and patrols, and stronger shields and weapons due to the larger powerplant.
her longer range made her more suited for exploration, hence the sci focus relative to her little sister.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Don't you know the rules of Internet Forums? All company names and other proper nouns need to be shortened and end in a 'y' or an 'ie'. I am not sure of the proper Name Game rules to determine which would get the 'y' and which the 'ie'. I know I have seen 'Amby' used on the forums. The others maybe could be:
NXie
Mirandy
Excelie
Chey
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I'm confused. They both have 4 fore and 4 aft weapons don't they?
The ship didn't EXIST canonically anywhere outside of the Wolf 359 graveyard. It's not a real functioning ship, it's just filler space debris.
Remember folks, up until the very end Trek was a LOW BUDGET show. The space battles were created using film of physical models... this was before computer generation even existed. In order to be within budget constraints a LOT of kitbashing was done.
There are several "classes" of starship said to exist based on the Wolf 359 debris field... reality is, they didn't... they weren't ever meant to be anything other than floating junk, they're horrendously ugly and violate several core Trek principles... we need to stay AWAY from them.
We don't know that for a fact. In fact given how it's treated by both Worf and Picard in the movie and how easily it dispatches both warbirds i don't think it holds up to any scrutiny whatsoever. Worf wouldn't have that awed WTF tone, Picard wouldn't be acting like it's incredibly well armed and it wouldn't have obliterated both warbirds so idilly once it got a good firing position. Yes it didn't obliterate the enterprise that quickly. But bear in mind that they also never used a RoF even close to what it did on the warbirds, (Donatra's warbird is particuarly relevent as the FX all origionate from one location indicating it was one disrupter on Rapid fire thus proving that the anemic Ro of the rest wasn't due to actual limit's of the cannons). Which given it was trying to disable the enterprise without causing serious damage, (and thus risking killing picard), isn't surprising. Compare the Enterprise D in Best of Both Worlds to it's shooting match with the Galor in The Wounded. In the latter it uses several volleys from a single phaser bank, in the Former it goes all out with 3 phaser banks and multiple torpedo volley's. If Shinzon had been trying to blow the enterprise up right from the start, (instead of deciding to after getting rammed), i doubt Picard would have even got to the bridge before it obliterated the enterprise. In particular note how despite his low RoF he still knocks out shield facings, (until the ent crew can scavenge power from elsewhere anyway), in a handful of shots. That's not low power shooting and probably indicates the romulan warbirds where nearly as well shielded as the Enterprise, they just didn't get break in the pounding to reinforce shields.
As for the thread main topic. Was gonna go into this in the big Gal thread but this will do.
First and foremost remember that the Excel refit is based on the Lackota. A design that stood toe to toe with the defiant, a ship that quite clearly crapped on the Gal's tactical capabilities by a huge Margin. But where never told what it gave up to get those capabilities, (basic engineering dictates there was some tradeoff even accounting for newer tech level upgrades). The Ambassador in it's few appearances is generally treated as a capable, but second rate tactical platform compared to the Galaxy. Though it gets so few it's hard to be sure, though i believe cannon out of show info also pegged it at a lower level.
Now i'm sure everyone will go: But the T5's are nearly all retrofits, like the Lakota!
Yes they are, but the Lakota was explicitly refitted with heavy duty tactical capabilities. By not upgrading the tactical systems at all or as much they could have used that internal volume and power those upgrades consumed for other things. That's the point of the Ambassador Refit and Gal Refit. They haven't put as much, (though i'm sure they put some), effort into the tactical side. Instead they focused on other area's. Both appears to be of very simila design based on known parameter's, being multi-mission vessel's. Whilst each was undoubtedly at the time of Launch the best armed class in the fleet, they also posses immense cargo space and science lab space, (the Gal in particular is shown as being able to carry out any science mission the Federation does, upto and including solo explorations of entire unexplored sectors, as well as providing planetary levels of disaster relief aid, moderate scale planetary evacuation capability, the ability to provide full solo support for colony efforts, and a rated 7 year endurance without resupply, (Voyager was 2 AFIK), and it does all that despite the cubage, power, and supply overheads of all those amilies). Thus whilst they are well armed, it very obviously not even close to where the majority of their volume and power output is going. They have way too many other capabilities taking space and power both for that to be the case. So when their refit's focused on those extra capabilities they rather naturally didn't get a massive tactical upgrade at the same time.
To be fair the only reason the Gal doesn't hold up is because of how gimped Engineering abilities are overall. Been thinking of writing a long essay on that. I'd also argue that the Gal's sci capabilities are seriously under represented. You also have to bear in mind that there's a degree of role enforce layout going on. Base don the Lakota the Excel refit really should have even more tac ability than it does, but because it's a cruiser it has an enforce minimum eng capability. This because of how weak Eng abilities are, and most sci too tend to bite them in the TRIBBLE.
But anyways... TNG did not exactly break the Ambassador Class model - it still had the markings from DS9's pilot episode... as the USS Yamaguchi when it was sold by Christie's.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Ambassador_class_model
Why the Ambassador was not used more often in the TNG production is a mystery. Maybe its due to reuse of stock footage.
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I assume she did. So did the Enterprise.
There just were not many ships of that class around and a lot more battles then we saw. They just were not involved in any of the 3 battles we saw.
Plus, with their fire power and small numbers they were likely never really on the front lines and more used to guard core Federation worlds.
Do you REALLY think the militaries of Star Trek would not upgrade / refit existing ships when they can as time and technology has progressed?
They do.
The Excelsior-class ships that still served from Kirk's time and into the Dominion War did get their refits.
Even Miranda light cruisers got refitted with new equipment. For instance, compare their phaser fire from Wrath of Khan to how they fired in the DS9 / Dominion War. In TWOK, the Phasers fired in very fast, phased pulses (canon like in a way). In DS9, they fired standard Phaser fire of the time, beams.
If nobody upgraded their ships, the VERY, VERY OLD Klingon B'Rel BOPs have been tearing it up from Kirk's time and into the Dominion War with no upgrades.
I'm not saying the old ships are on the same par as newer vessels. After all, they are typically smaller ships and ship designs have gotten larger in Star Trek, as well as newer, better, advanced shipbuilding techniques learned over time (as they do in real life). But they're not slouches with upgrades, and these upgrades allow them to perform duties in a modern setting. Not on the same par as their successors, but they can do the job still.
Ah, the extremely flawed logic that is behind the tier 5 excelsior. The defiant and Lakota are 3rd stringers at best, the fact that an old excelsior can match the defiant does not prove that Lakota>galaxy. Because the defiant, though powerful for its size, happens to be extremely tiny, and everything modern and intrepid sized or larger easily outguns the defiant. No ship in canon has displayed shows of force or damage per shot that match what the galaxy has displayed, not even the sovereign.
And about warp cores, what exactly does hight signify? Those just feed the mater and antimatter into the combustion chamber in the center. If anything, the volume of the combustion chamber would be the closest thing to indicating power output. The height of the core always just seems to connect the deuterium storage tank with the antimatter pods, the core is the single component that connects these 2 fuels.
I would say the Enterprise-E did in Nemesis.
If I remember me correctly even Gul Dukat said that the Defiant is one of the most heavily armed warships of the quadrant so I would not call her a 3rd stringer.
While the Galaxy we have not really seen a lot of what she can or can't do during the Dominion War.
The best scene were tow Galaxy class starships against a Galor, while the damage wasn't to bad, a squad of Peregrine Fighters was able to do more damage in the same episode.
The Peregines destroyed nearly the entire top section of that Galor.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/6x06/sacraficeofangels080.jpg
Tow Galaxy's and the damage they were doing was not really impressive.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/6x06/sacraficeofangels092.jpg
I really don't understand why anyone in the ST universe builds anything larger than shuttles, since following your argumentation those are far superior to capital ships
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Indeed, but now serious it looks like those shuttles have a bigger punch than a Galaxy.
You mean the same Galaxy that with shield power to weapon put dozens of shots into a jemh'dar attack ship and didn't even get through the shields whilst the defiant with full shield power to shields regularly punches them out in one shot. That Gal. Sorry but your wrong.
Your trying to justify a position that isn't supported by the actual on screen evidence. Nowhere is the Galaxy (in the few direct comparisons we can make), ever shown to have the kind of firepower your claiming.
Equally compare the Enterprises late season performance against those two ferengi crewed BoP's. A few volleys and the enterprise has no shields, (even the yesterday's enterprise Ent D got punched out by 3 BoP pretty rapidly whilst doing only modest damage in return). During Sisko's Rescue of the Detapa council they take on 3 and come out ahead with 2 down and no mention of serious shield damage, and that's on top of eating a bunch of fire to the shields from a Vorcha. Something similar happens during the dominon war. When those remote powered orbital weapon platforms come online and start shredding stuff they punch out the lights federation ships completely, punch out the Gal's shields, (but the sheer excess non-critical system hull volume appears to keep it from being destroyed outright in the first volley), whilst the defiant eats hits to the shields and comes out with intact shields and no visible hull damage. The Defiant is clearly also much better shielded.
It quite obvious that Size has no real bearing on the effectiveness of starfleet vessels. Which is no surprise. As i pointed out the Gals have huge endurance, huge shuttlebays, huge cargo bays, huge crews, and huge science systems eating lots of space and power both. Most of it's mass and volume is dedicated to non-combat system. I have a few theories on the topic beyond the above on screen stuff as well, but their only loosely, (implied but never directly stated), supported on screen, but if you want to hear them i'll happily elaborate.