By looking at the Excelsior (ST III era) vs. Ambassador (TNG era). According to *canon*, the Ambassador was designed to replace the aging Excelsior. OK, understood, but a close inspection between both ships reveals quite the opposite.
. "Slightly" greater hull
. 3 Science slots (is this somehow supposed to make up for lack of Tac slots)?
The Excelsior will out-gun, out maneuver, go faster, and than its' younger sister. Can anyone explain why Starfleet would even bother building an inferior ship to replace an older, superior one?
Constructive criticism, thoughts, concerns, ideas, opinions are welcome. Let's provide a thesis either way.
I think that starfleet didnt have back then the aux2bat dem marion available:eek:
Lol & thread title. An ambassador would have the firepower of both the Lakota and defiant combined. It could prolly go toe to toe with both ships 2v1. And then the galaxy has the firepower of the ambassador, Lakota and defiant. Sto is just dead wrong about ships, it really is shocking
STO doesnt use canon...........not even a little bit
The Technical manuals prove this
There isnt anything Canon in STO except how some of the ships look ...and thats all
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
By looking at the Excelsior (ST III era) vs. Ambassador (TNG era). According to *canon*, the Ambassador was designed to replace the aging Excelsior. OK, understood, but a close inspection between both ships reveals quite the opposite.
. "Slightly" greater hull
. 3 Science slots (is this somehow supposed to make up for lack of Tac slots)?
The Excelsior will out-gun, out maneuver, go faster, and than its' younger sister. Can anyone explain why Starfleet would even bother building an inferior ship to replace an older, superior one?
Constructive criticism, thoughts, concerns, ideas, opinions are welcome. Let's provide a thesis either way.
Backround, i am in real life an engineer specializing in manufacturing tech.
the excelsior is all large solid parts, as opposed to every other starfleet ship which is a collection of small parts held together mostly with structural integrity fields. if a starfleet ship (and most other peoples ships) lost its SIF field generator it would kind of flop about like a deflating balloon, except for the excelsior.
the reason this is important is because it makes the excelsior very expensive to manufacture, with large specialized shipyards and manufacturing facilities that can build nothing else because nothing else is built like this.
why build it at all if you can get larger ship with further range at less than half the production costs with already existing infrastructure? because the excelsior was designed to handle the stresses of transwarp drive, and is to date the only starfleet ship capable of routinely handling the stress without blowing out a transwarp coil.
this makes the ship incredibly viable now, but before we reverse engineered transwarp from old borg tech (ty USS Voyager) it was just a large cruiser that was incredibly expensive to build. hence the ambassador, galaxy, and sovereign classes. the ambassador and galaxy are examples of what you can build at lesser or equal cost of production using different building techniques and existing infrastructure, and the sovereign is clearly a low cost excelsior replacement ship with a few more guns, a few less shuttle bays, and at 1/4 the cost.
why are there so many excelsior's if there so damn expensive? starfleet knew transwarp would work out eventually, and having a large number of transwarp capable warship hulls available would eventually pay off, which it apparently did. in the short term it was a battleship of its day effectively disguised as a constitution 3.0
why is the excelsior still a viable ship despite its age? it has a warp core at least 4x the size of a soverign, and thus 4x the power output, assuming equal tech of course.
why the ambassador despite all this? she has an even bigger warp core, longer range and duration of cruise and patrols, and stronger shields and weapons due to the larger powerplant.
her longer range made her more suited for exploration, hence the sci focus relative to her little sister.
*shoots edalgo and charon2 in the foot for continuing to post in necroed thread.*
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
if the game had it REALLY right, by Canon it would go:
NX
Connie
Miranda
Excelsior
Cheyenne/Stargazer
Ambassador
Galaxy
Sovvy
Oddy
Don't you know the rules of Internet Forums? All company names and other proper nouns need to be shortened and end in a 'y' or an 'ie'. I am not sure of the proper Name Game rules to determine which would get the 'y' and which the 'ie'. I know I have seen 'Amby' used on the forums. The others maybe could be:
NXie
Mirandy
Excelie
Chey
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The Cheyenne-class studio model was a "kitbash" design study and filming model designed by Ed Miarecki and Michael Okuda and built by Miarecki for the graveyard scene in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II." It used parts from the smaller scale AMT/Ertl USS Enterprise-D model kit saucer section, a bridge module from the larger Enterprise kit, and commercially-available highlighter markers for warp nacelles.
The ship didn't EXIST canonically anywhere outside of the Wolf 359 graveyard. It's not a real functioning ship, it's just filler space debris.
Remember folks, up until the very end Trek was a LOW BUDGET show. The space battles were created using film of physical models... this was before computer generation even existed. In order to be within budget constraints a LOT of kitbashing was done.
There are several "classes" of starship said to exist based on the Wolf 359 debris field... reality is, they didn't... they weren't ever meant to be anything other than floating junk, they're horrendously ugly and violate several core Trek principles... we need to stay AWAY from them.
Then again, the Scimitars canon weapons are many, but they are not very powerful compared to phaser arrays. The scimitar is a fragile super weapon with dozens of small petty turrets acting as point defense which is compared to phaser arrays and even beam emitters some rather backwards technology. And Scorpions are most likely orbital craft.
We don't know that for a fact. In fact given how it's treated by both Worf and Picard in the movie and how easily it dispatches both warbirds i don't think it holds up to any scrutiny whatsoever. Worf wouldn't have that awed WTF tone, Picard wouldn't be acting like it's incredibly well armed and it wouldn't have obliterated both warbirds so idilly once it got a good firing position. Yes it didn't obliterate the enterprise that quickly. But bear in mind that they also never used a RoF even close to what it did on the warbirds, (Donatra's warbird is particuarly relevent as the FX all origionate from one location indicating it was one disrupter on Rapid fire thus proving that the anemic Ro of the rest wasn't due to actual limit's of the cannons). Which given it was trying to disable the enterprise without causing serious damage, (and thus risking killing picard), isn't surprising. Compare the Enterprise D in Best of Both Worlds to it's shooting match with the Galor in The Wounded. In the latter it uses several volleys from a single phaser bank, in the Former it goes all out with 3 phaser banks and multiple torpedo volley's. If Shinzon had been trying to blow the enterprise up right from the start, (instead of deciding to after getting rammed), i doubt Picard would have even got to the bridge before it obliterated the enterprise. In particular note how despite his low RoF he still knocks out shield facings, (until the ent crew can scavenge power from elsewhere anyway), in a handful of shots. That's not low power shooting and probably indicates the romulan warbirds where nearly as well shielded as the Enterprise, they just didn't get break in the pounding to reinforce shields.
As for the thread main topic. Was gonna go into this in the big Gal thread but this will do.
First and foremost remember that the Excel refit is based on the Lackota. A design that stood toe to toe with the defiant, a ship that quite clearly crapped on the Gal's tactical capabilities by a huge Margin. But where never told what it gave up to get those capabilities, (basic engineering dictates there was some tradeoff even accounting for newer tech level upgrades). The Ambassador in it's few appearances is generally treated as a capable, but second rate tactical platform compared to the Galaxy. Though it gets so few it's hard to be sure, though i believe cannon out of show info also pegged it at a lower level.
Now i'm sure everyone will go: But the T5's are nearly all retrofits, like the Lakota!
Yes they are, but the Lakota was explicitly refitted with heavy duty tactical capabilities. By not upgrading the tactical systems at all or as much they could have used that internal volume and power those upgrades consumed for other things. That's the point of the Ambassador Refit and Gal Refit. They haven't put as much, (though i'm sure they put some), effort into the tactical side. Instead they focused on other area's. Both appears to be of very simila design based on known parameter's, being multi-mission vessel's. Whilst each was undoubtedly at the time of Launch the best armed class in the fleet, they also posses immense cargo space and science lab space, (the Gal in particular is shown as being able to carry out any science mission the Federation does, upto and including solo explorations of entire unexplored sectors, as well as providing planetary levels of disaster relief aid, moderate scale planetary evacuation capability, the ability to provide full solo support for colony efforts, and a rated 7 year endurance without resupply, (Voyager was 2 AFIK), and it does all that despite the cubage, power, and supply overheads of all those amilies). Thus whilst they are well armed, it very obviously not even close to where the majority of their volume and power output is going. They have way too many other capabilities taking space and power both for that to be the case. So when their refit's focused on those extra capabilities they rather naturally didn't get a massive tactical upgrade at the same time.
To be fair the only reason the Gal doesn't hold up is because of how gimped Engineering abilities are overall. Been thinking of writing a long essay on that. I'd also argue that the Gal's sci capabilities are seriously under represented. You also have to bear in mind that there's a degree of role enforce layout going on. Base don the Lakota the Excel refit really should have even more tac ability than it does, but because it's a cruiser it has an enforce minimum eng capability. This because of how weak Eng abilities are, and most sci too tend to bite them in the TRIBBLE.
The Constellation, Nebula, Cheyenne... all kitbash starships in TNG. The 4 nacelled ones were models... the Nebula was built first as a filming model then had a TNG Galaxy model modded to be a desktop decoration.
But anyways... TNG did not exactly break the Ambassador Class model - it still had the markings from DS9's pilot episode... as the USS Yamaguchi when it was sold by Christie's.
I wonder why the Sovvy didn't enter the Domminion War with the firepower as what was said?
I assume she did. So did the Enterprise.
There just were not many ships of that class around and a lot more battles then we saw. They just were not involved in any of the 3 battles we saw.
Greyhame is correct. They held the class for movies only. But they did explain things in canon though. If I remember correctly, if you bring all the sources together, during the Dominion War, there was only 4 Sovereign Class ships in service (including the E), with a half a dozen in production and they were all held from front line service as they were still an untested class in most cases.
Not Lakota was an experiment to beef up the Excel, so most excels during D W would be the standard version of the excel type in the 2370's so if Lakota was a standard Excel of that time and went against the defiant the defiant would have clearly won, if taken to the end. but the fight would have been over earlier than it was in that episode. To the Universe the Excel is the workhorse of the fleet. Note the Klingons feel less inclinded to make new ships. "If it works don't fix it" seems to be the KDF motto and the smallest house can afford a small fleet of BOP and Ktingas
Do you REALLY think the militaries of Star Trek would not upgrade / refit existing ships when they can as time and technology has progressed?
They do.
The Excelsior-class ships that still served from Kirk's time and into the Dominion War did get their refits.
Even Miranda light cruisers got refitted with new equipment. For instance, compare their phaser fire from Wrath of Khan to how they fired in the DS9 / Dominion War. In TWOK, the Phasers fired in very fast, phased pulses (canon like in a way). In DS9, they fired standard Phaser fire of the time, beams.
If nobody upgraded their ships, the VERY, VERY OLD Klingon B'Rel BOPs have been tearing it up from Kirk's time and into the Dominion War with no upgrades.
I'm not saying the old ships are on the same par as newer vessels. After all, they are typically smaller ships and ship designs have gotten larger in Star Trek, as well as newer, better, advanced shipbuilding techniques learned over time (as they do in real life). But they're not slouches with upgrades, and these upgrades allow them to perform duties in a modern setting. Not on the same par as their successors, but they can do the job still.
First and foremost remember that the Excel refit is based on the Lackota. A design that stood toe to toe with the defiant, a ship that quite clearly crapped on the Gal's tactical capabilities by a huge Margin. But where never told what it gave up to get those capabilities, (basic engineering dictates there was some tradeoff even accounting for newer tech level upgrades). The Ambassador in it's few appearances is generally treated as a capable, but second rate tactical platform compared to the Galaxy. Though it gets so few it's hard to be sure, though i believe cannon out of show info also pegged it at a lower level.
Now i'm sure everyone will go: But the T5's are nearly all retrofits, like the Lakota!
Yes they are, but the Lakota was explicitly refitted with heavy duty tactical capabilities. By not upgrading the tactical systems at all or as much they could have used that internal volume and power those upgrades consumed for other things. That's the point of the Ambassador Refit and Gal Refit. They haven't put as much, (though i'm sure they put some), effort into the tactical side. Instead they focused on other area's. Both appears to be of very simila design based on known parameter's, being multi-mission vessel's. Whilst each was undoubtedly at the time of Launch the best armed class in the fleet, they also posses immense cargo space and science lab space, (the Gal in particular is shown as being able to carry out any science mission the Federation does, upto and including solo explorations of entire unexplored sectors, as well as providing planetary levels of disaster relief aid, moderate scale planetary evacuation capability, the ability to provide full solo support for colony efforts, and a rated 7 year endurance without resupply, (Voyager was 2 AFIK), and it does all that despite the cubage, power, and supply overheads of all those amilies). Thus whilst they are well armed, it very obviously not even close to where the majority of their volume and power output is going. They have way too many other capabilities taking space and power both for that to be the case. So when their refit's focused on those extra capabilities they rather naturally didn't get a massive tactical upgrade at the same time.
To be fair the only reason the Gal doesn't hold up is because of how gimped Engineering abilities are overall. Been thinking of writing a long essay on that. I'd also argue that the Gal's sci capabilities are seriously under represented. You also have to bear in mind that there's a degree of role enforce layout going on. Base don the Lakota the Excel refit really should have even more tac ability than it does, but because it's a cruiser it has an enforce minimum eng capability. This because of how weak Eng abilities are, and most sci too tend to bite them in the TRIBBLE.
Ah, the extremely flawed logic that is behind the tier 5 excelsior. The defiant and Lakota are 3rd stringers at best, the fact that an old excelsior can match the defiant does not prove that Lakota>galaxy. Because the defiant, though powerful for its size, happens to be extremely tiny, and everything modern and intrepid sized or larger easily outguns the defiant. No ship in canon has displayed shows of force or damage per shot that match what the galaxy has displayed, not even the sovereign.
And about warp cores, what exactly does hight signify? Those just feed the mater and antimatter into the combustion chamber in the center. If anything, the volume of the combustion chamber would be the closest thing to indicating power output. The height of the core always just seems to connect the deuterium storage tank with the antimatter pods, the core is the single component that connects these 2 fuels.
No ship in canon has displayed shows of force or damage per shot that match what the galaxy has displayed, not even the sovereign.
I would say the Enterprise-E did in Nemesis.
If I remember me correctly even Gul Dukat said that the Defiant is one of the most heavily armed warships of the quadrant so I would not call her a 3rd stringer.
While the Galaxy we have not really seen a lot of what she can or can't do during the Dominion War.
The best scene were tow Galaxy class starships against a Galor, while the damage wasn't to bad, a squad of Peregrine Fighters was able to do more damage in the same episode.
The Peregines destroyed nearly the entire top section of that Galor.
If I remember me correctly even Gul Dukat said that the Defiant is one of the most heavily armed warships of the quadrant so I would not call her a 3rd stringer.
While the Galaxy we have not really seen a lot of what she can or can't do during the Dominion War.
The best scene were tow Galaxy class starships against a Galor, while the damage wasn't to bad, a squad of Peregrine Fighters was able to do more damage in the same episode.
The Peregines destroyed nearly the entire top section of that Galor.
I really don't understand why anyone in the ST universe builds anything larger than shuttles, since following your argumentation those are far superior to capital ships
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I really don't understand why anyone in the ST universe builds anything larger than shuttles, since following your argumentation those are far superior to capital ships
Indeed, but now serious it looks like those shuttles have a bigger punch than a Galaxy.
No ship in canon has displayed shows of force or damage per shot that match what the galaxy has displayed, not even the sovereign.
You mean the same Galaxy that with shield power to weapon put dozens of shots into a jemh'dar attack ship and didn't even get through the shields whilst the defiant with full shield power to shields regularly punches them out in one shot. That Gal. Sorry but your wrong.
Your trying to justify a position that isn't supported by the actual on screen evidence. Nowhere is the Galaxy (in the few direct comparisons we can make), ever shown to have the kind of firepower your claiming.
Equally compare the Enterprises late season performance against those two ferengi crewed BoP's. A few volleys and the enterprise has no shields, (even the yesterday's enterprise Ent D got punched out by 3 BoP pretty rapidly whilst doing only modest damage in return). During Sisko's Rescue of the Detapa council they take on 3 and come out ahead with 2 down and no mention of serious shield damage, and that's on top of eating a bunch of fire to the shields from a Vorcha. Something similar happens during the dominon war. When those remote powered orbital weapon platforms come online and start shredding stuff they punch out the lights federation ships completely, punch out the Gal's shields, (but the sheer excess non-critical system hull volume appears to keep it from being destroyed outright in the first volley), whilst the defiant eats hits to the shields and comes out with intact shields and no visible hull damage. The Defiant is clearly also much better shielded.
It quite obvious that Size has no real bearing on the effectiveness of starfleet vessels. Which is no surprise. As i pointed out the Gals have huge endurance, huge shuttlebays, huge cargo bays, huge crews, and huge science systems eating lots of space and power both. Most of it's mass and volume is dedicated to non-combat system. I have a few theories on the topic beyond the above on screen stuff as well, but their only loosely, (implied but never directly stated), supported on screen, but if you want to hear them i'll happily elaborate.
You mean the same Galaxy that with shield power to weapon put dozens of shots into a jemh'dar attack ship and didn't even get through the shields whilst the defiant with full shield power to shields regularly punches them out in one shot. That Gal. Sorry but your wrong.
Your trying to justify a position that isn't supported by the actual on screen evidence. Nowhere is the Galaxy (in the few direct comparisons we can make), ever shown to have the kind of firepower your claiming.
Equally compare the Enterprises late season performance against those two ferengi crewed BoP's. A few volleys and the enterprise has no shields, (even the yesterday's enterprise Ent D got punched out by 3 BoP pretty rapidly whilst doing only modest damage in return). During Sisko's Rescue of the Detapa council they take on 3 and come out ahead with 2 down and no mention of serious shield damage, and that's on top of eating a bunch of fire to the shields from a Vorcha. Something similar happens during the dominon war. When those remote powered orbital weapon platforms come online and start shredding stuff they punch out the lights federation ships completely, punch out the Gal's shields, (but the sheer excess non-critical system hull volume appears to keep it from being destroyed outright in the first volley), whilst the defiant eats hits to the shields and comes out with intact shields and no visible hull damage. The Defiant is clearly also much better shielded.
It quite obvious that Size has no real bearing on the effectiveness of starfleet vessels. Which is no surprise. As i pointed out the Gals have huge endurance, huge shuttlebays, huge cargo bays, huge crews, and huge science systems eating lots of space and power both. Most of it's mass and volume is dedicated to non-combat system. I have a few theories on the topic beyond the above on screen stuff as well, but their only loosely, (implied but never directly stated), supported on screen, but if you want to hear them i'll happily elaborate.
Watch out, my friend. These Galaxy fanboys will start whining about "it's the writers fault" or "plot armor", or every other excuse in the book to try to explain away the crappy performance of the Galaxy class. It is totally inconceivable to them that the Galaxy Class ship has been shown to have some serious flaws to it, both offensively and defensively. ("The Arsenal of Freedom", "Darmok", "Tin Man", "Rascals", "The Nth Degree", "Generations", "The Jem'Haddar").
As you correctly pointed out, the Odyssey was unable to destroy a SINGLE Jem'Hadar ship even after it has transferred shield power to the weapons AND with the assistance of two Runabouts. It just couldn't get the job done.
Strangely enough, the definition of "canon" to these Galaxy fanboys is "nothing that shows the Galaxy class in a bad light", which is why they'll talk proudly about an episode like "The Wounded", and stick their fingers in their ears chanting "La-La-La" when episodes like "Rascals", "Tin Man", "Generations", "The Jem'Hadar", etc., are brought up, and then try to run to the TNG Tech Manual in order to attempt to invalidate the canon information illustrating the Galaxy's crappy performance.
Unfortunately for the Galaxy fanboys, Cryptic/CBS has chosen to go with the "Rascals" and "The Jem'Hadar" interpretation of the capabilities of the Galaxy class in STO, as opposed to the one that they were hoping for. C'est la vie.
If I remember me correctly even Gul Dukat said that the Defiant is one of the most heavily armed warships of the quadrant so I would not call her a 3rd stringer.
While the Galaxy we have not really seen a lot of what she can or can't do during the Dominion War.
The best scene were tow Galaxy class starships against a Galor, while the damage wasn't to bad, a squad of Peregrine Fighters was able to do more damage in the same episode.
The Peregines destroyed nearly the entire top section of that Galor.
What does ducat know seriously. Compared to his galors any new fed ship is super scary. not like sisko is going to correct him, oh ducat actually my pimp hands not all that really, compared to something like a galaxy. Remember in that episode the wounded where a top of the line galor proved all but harmless to the enterprise? And a nebula class smoked one with a single torpedo spread when it's shields were down? Ya, those were good times ducat.
Anyway, show of force, against an apparition created by a god. They actually let the ship go all out, seeing as it's target was invincible. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_XbWq49vUM any fight a galaxy lost in the show, if it was allowed to defend it self like that, would have resulted in an instant win.
Also the damage it caused that Borg cube in q who, in 3 hits vaporizing more volume of it then the enterprise had volume herself
The shots fired at that galor utilized a tiny amount of the phaser array, those were not maximum firepower shots, but shots to disable. Probably because they did not want to blow it up at point blank range with themselves.
You mean the same Galaxy that with shield power to weapon put dozens of shots into a jemh'dar attack ship and didn't even get through the shields whilst the defiant with full shield power to shields regularly punches them out in one shot. That Gal. Sorry but your wrong.
Your trying to justify a position that isn't supported by the actual on screen evidence. Nowhere is the Galaxy (in the few direct comparisons we can make), ever shown to have the kind of firepower your claiming.
Equally compare the Enterprises late season performance against those two ferengi crewed BoP's. A few volleys and the enterprise has no shields, (even the yesterday's enterprise Ent D got punched out by 3 BoP pretty rapidly whilst doing only modest damage in return). During Sisko's Rescue of the Detapa council they take on 3 and come out ahead with 2 down and no mention of serious shield damage, and that's on top of eating a bunch of fire to the shields from a Vorcha. Something similar happens during the dominon war. When those remote powered orbital weapon platforms come online and start shredding stuff they punch out the lights federation ships completely, punch out the Gal's shields, (but the sheer excess non-critical system hull volume appears to keep it from being destroyed outright in the first volley), whilst the defiant eats hits to the shields and comes out with intact shields and no visible hull damage. The Defiant is clearly also much better shielded.
It quite obvious that Size has no real bearing on the effectiveness of starfleet vessels. Which is no surprise. As i pointed out the Gals have huge endurance, huge shuttlebays, huge cargo bays, huge crews, and huge science systems eating lots of space and power both. Most of it's mass and volume is dedicated to non-combat system. I have a few theories on the topic beyond the above on screen stuff as well, but their only loosely, (implied but never directly stated), supported on screen, but if you want to hear them i'll happily elaborate.
Whatever you say yoga, size totally maters not. A space pt boat is totally stronger then a big gun battleship. The battle the odyssey fought was against bug ships that knew how to defeat both federation shields and weapons, because the alpha quadrant was already infiltrated by spies. The odyssey still hull tanked them for 10 minutes before disengaging under its own power. I don't recall the defiant doing that well the next episode.
Strangely enough, the definition of "canon" to these Galaxy fanboys is "nothing that shows the Galaxy class in a bad light", which is why they'll talk proudly about an episode like "The Wounded", and stick their fingers in their ears chanting "La-La-La" when episodes like "Rascals", "Tin Man", "Generations", "The Jem'Hadar", etc., are brought up, and then try to run to the TNG Tech Manual in order to attempt to invalidate the canon information illustrating the Galaxy's crappy performance.
Defiant fanboys tend to do this too. The Defiant can go from being the uber ship that saves the day and can't be killed, to the ship that gets taken out in a few hits.
Also, Intrepid fanboys. Pick your hero ship, and you'll have people saying that it can take out anything and everything and should be the most powerful ship ever.
In Star Trek terms, the Galaxy Class is likely stronger than the Defiant. Doesn't make the Defiant a slouch in combat, but the Galaxy class is just bigger, so it can take more hits while dishing out a lot of firepower.
Defiant fanboys tend to do this too. The Defiant can go from being the uber ship that saves the day and can't be killed, to the ship that gets taken out in a few hits.
Also, Intrepid fanboys. Pick your hero ship, and you'll have people saying that it can take out anything and everything and should be the most powerful ship ever.
In Star Trek terms, the Galaxy Class is likely stronger than the Defiant. Doesn't make the Defiant a slouch in combat, but the Galaxy class is just bigger, so it can take more hits while dishing out a lot of firepower.
No offence, but I have NEVER seen the "Defiant fanboys" or the "Intrepid fanboys" blaming "the writers" for any deficiencies shown in its performance, as I see with the Galaxy fanboys. Those "Defiant fanboys" and "Intrepid fanboys" seem to take the good with the bad and accept BOTH as canon, whether they like it or not, unlike these "Galaxy fanboys".
If you need further evidence of this, I would direct you to the 600+ page "Galaxy beef" thread where those Galaxy fanboys are all over the map with their definition of canon, while giving NUMEROUS personal insults to the Devs (and everyone else who doesn't agree with them), which has resulted in almost no "love" from those devs regarding giving the Galaxy fanboys the type of ship that they want, much to no one's surprise but theirs.
Watch out, my friend. These Galaxy fanboys will start whining about "it's the writers fault" or "plot armor", or every other excuse in the book to try to explain away the crappy performance of the Galaxy class. It is totally inconceivable to them that the Galaxy Class ship has been shown to have some serious flaws to it, both offensively and defensively. ("The Arsenal of Freedom", "Darmok", "Tin Man", "Rascals", "The Nth Degree", "Generations", "The Jem'Haddar").
As you correctly pointed out, the Odyssey was unable to destroy a SINGLE Jem'Hadar ship even after it has transferred shield power to the weapons AND with the assistance of two Runabouts. It just couldn't get the job done. Strangely enough, the definition of "canon" to these Galaxy fanboys is "nothing that shows the Galaxy class in a bad light", which is why they'll talk proudly about episodes like "The Wounded", and stick their fingers in their ears chanting "La-La-La" when episodes like "Rascals", "Tin Man", "Generations", "The Jem'Hadar", etc., are brought up, and then try to run to the TNG Tech Manual in order to attempt to invalidate the canon information illustrating the Galaxy's crappy performance.
Unfortunately for the Galaxy fanboys, Cryptic/CBS has chosen to go with the "Rascals" and "The Jem'Hadar" interpretation of the capabilities of the Galaxy class in STO, as opposed to the one that they were hoping for. C'est la vie.
The Galaxy actually performs rather well in a number of situations and was undoubtedly a very potent ship. Hell in yesterday's Enterprise it still gets a kill, which assuming those BoP's have the same firepower as the prime universe ones, (comparable t the defiant), implies drastically weaker shields than the Galaxy.
Defiant fanboys tend to do this too. The Defiant can go from being the uber ship that saves the day and can't be killed, to the ship that gets taken out in a few hits.
Also, Intrepid fanboys. Pick your hero ship, and you'll have people saying that it can take out anything and everything and should be the most powerful ship ever.
In Star Trek terms, the Galaxy Class is likely stronger than the Defiant. Doesn't make the Defiant a slouch in combat, but the Galaxy class is just bigger, so it can take more hits while dishing out a lot of firepower.
Not really, the defiant never gets punched out in a few volleys like the enterprise did repeatedly. It degree of toughness did vary plenty, from strong to ludicrous, but it was always consistently able to survive repeated strikes when it's shields where up and functioning, (when not it certainly suffered as seen on a few occasions, but TBH that's is something only the gal ever shows an ability to put up with). Voyager on the other hand was vary varied, but then again we rarely saw it go up against the same opponent several times very often and rarely did it go up against anything else a starfleet ship encountered so it's not normal you can make a proper estimate of it's abilities. Not to mention how much Bellana and Seven supposedly upgraded everything to the point that it's probably got different levels at different times, (the Ent-D underwent a refit at the end of season 3 officially, but no major upgrades thereafter that i recall).
What does ducat know seriously. Compared to his galors any new fed ship is super scary. not like sisko is going to correct him, oh ducat actually my pimp hands not all that really, compared to something like a galaxy. Remember in that episode the wounded where a top of the line galor proved all but harmless to the enterprise? And a nebula class smoked one with a single torpedo spread when it's shields were down? Ya, those were good times ducat.
Anyway, show of force, against an apparition created by a god. They actually let the ship go all out, seeing as it's target was invincible. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_XbWq49vUM any fight a galaxy lost in the show, if it was allowed to defend it self like that, would have resulted in an instant win.
Also the damage it caused that Borg cube in q who, in 3 hits vaporizing more volume of it then the enterprise had volume herself
The shots fired at that galor utilized a tiny amount of the phaser array, those were not maximum firepower shots, but shots to disable. Probably because they did not want to blow it up at point blank range with themselves.
The Galaxy class never displays that kind of firepower against anything ever again. Hell if you look there was a Galaxy in the first Contact fleet, (it gets blown up trying to run as the cube blows), and guess what, despite the feds putting hug numbers of shots through the shields it never again does that. Hell the enterprise gets hits through the borgs shields and again, never gets hit's like that. That's a very obvious case of early installment weirdness.
Likewise, you claim the hits on the Galor where at partial strength. I'm calling you on it. Prove it.
Hint you can't. In fact given that picard goes to the trouble on several occasions to order worf to fire at reduced power your argument makes no sense. Why would worf fire at partial power when he hasn't been ordered to and past precedent shows that a shot at partial power requires an explicit order to that effect from the captain. Your argument makes no sense.
Whatever you say yoga, size totally maters not. A space pt boat is totally stronger then a big gun battleship. The battle the odyssey fought was against bug ships that knew how to defeat both federation shields and weapons, because the alpha quadrant was already infiltrated by spies. The odyssey still hull tanked them for 10 minutes before disengaging under its own power. I don't recall the defiant doing that well the next episode.
It is if the battleship isn't in fact a battleship but a converted bulk carrier, (known as merchant cruisers despite even the WW2 ones typically massing closer to a BB). That's the point you still refuse to acknowledge. The Gal is not a warship, it does not dedicate any significant percentage of it's volume or it's mass to weapons and shields. The defiant does, and it uses newer tech to boot, as well as some cool tricks, (it's routing of warp power through the weapons power coupling is noted as unique by thomas riker), so shock horror it actually hit's harder. Remember the defiant was explicitly designed to fight the borg and along with the Akira, Steamrunner, (and a few other classes), was designed to represent a new level of tactical capability to deal with this new threat. They wouldn't remotely fulfill that purpose if they where inferior to the allready existing Galaxy class, (which didn't do so awesome either, even if it did better than most)
Also you need to go back and watch the oddy episode again. There are no spies in the federation at this point, the Dominions weapons ability to penetrate fed shields is never claimed to be a specific adaption for the federation, and there is never anywhere in the show any mention of the dominion doing anything to modify their shields to be super resistant to fed weapons. Thats pure made up on your part.
Yes the Oddy took a lot of hull damage. But that's a factor of it having all that non-combat stuff i've brought up on there. it mans there's a lot of non-critical area's they can hit without causing damage to anything important to it's fighting capabilities. The inverse applies to the defiant in the very next episode. Without shields and with no systems padding all it really had was it's ablative armor, and once that went, (and it always went in one or two volleys), it took damage really rapidly, doesn't change the fact that it punched out an attack ship no problem in one volley, (with the same phasers you claim the Jem'Hdar have adapted to).
No offence, but I have NEVER seen the "Defiant fanboys" or the "Intrepid fanboys" blaming "the writers" for any deficiencies shown in its performance, as I see with the Galaxy fanboys. Those "Defiant fanboys" and "Intrepid fanboys" seem to take the good with the bad and accept BOTH as canon, whether they like it or not, unlike these "Galaxy fanboys".
If you need further evidence of this, I would direct you to the 600+ page "Galaxy beef" thread where those Galaxy fanboys are all over the map with their definition of canon, while giving NUMEROUS personal insults to the Devs (and everyone else who doesn't agree with them), which has resulted in almost no "love" from those devs regarding giving the Galaxy fanboys the type of ship that they want, much to no one's surprise but theirs.
I've read the thread, tend to agree with it. For the Intrepid threads, you should read the ones where people are unhappy it's a science ship and think it should be a tactical one.
I was just pointing out that the Defiant fanboys tend to ignore when the ship fails just as much as you say the Galaxy fans do. The Defiant comes up less here because the in game ship itself is better than the games version of the Galaxy class.
I'm amused when people say that the Galaxy wasn't built for combat, therefor it's not good at fighting. It pretty much ignores how Starfleet designs ships.
The Galaxy actually performs rather well in a number of situations and was undoubtedly a very potent ship. Hell in yesterday's Enterprise it still gets a kill, which assuming those BoP's have the same firepower as the prime universe ones, (comparable t the defiant), implies drastically weaker shields than the Galaxy.
Not really, the defiant never gets punched out in a few volleys like the enterprise did repeatedly. It degree of toughness did vary plenty, from strong to ludicrous, but it was always consistently able to survive repeated strikes when it's shields where up and functioning, (when not it certainly suffered as seen on a few occasions, but TBH that's is something only the gal ever shows an ability to put up with). Voyager on the other hand was vary varied, but then again we rarely saw it go up against the same opponent several times very often and rarely did it go up against anything else a starfleet ship encountered so it's not normal you can make a proper estimate of it's abilities. Not to mention how much Bellana and Seven supposedly upgraded everything to the point that it's probably got different levels at different times, (the Ent-D underwent a refit at the end of season 3 officially, but no major upgrades thereafter that i recall).
The Galaxy class never displays that kind of firepower against anything ever again. Hell if you look there was a Galaxy in the first Contact fleet, (it gets blown up trying to run as the cube blows), and guess what, despite the feds putting hug numbers of shots through the shields it never again does that. Hell the enterprise gets hits through the borgs shields and again, never gets hit's like that. That's a very obvious case of early installment weirdness.
Likewise, you claim the hits on the Galor where at partial strength. I'm calling you on it. Prove it.
Hint you can't. In fact given that picard goes to the trouble on several occasions to order worf to fire at reduced power your argument makes no sense. Why would worf fire at partial power when he hasn't been ordered to and past precedent shows that a shot at partial power requires an explicit order to that effect from the captain. Your argument makes no sense.
It is if the battleship isn't in fact a battleship but a converted bulk carrier, (known as merchant cruisers despite even the WW2 ones typically massing closer to a BB). That's the point you still refuse to acknowledge. The Gal is not a warship, it does not dedicate any significant percentage of it's volume or it's mass to weapons and shields. The defiant does, and it uses newer tech to boot, as well as some cool tricks, (it's routing of warp power through the weapons power coupling is noted as unique by thomas riker), so shock horror it actually hit's harder. Remember the defiant was explicitly designed to fight the borg and along with the Akira, Steamrunner, (and a few other classes), was designed to represent a new level of tactical capability to deal with this new threat. They wouldn't remotely fulfill that purpose if they where inferior to the allready existing Galaxy class, (which didn't do so awesome either, even if it did better than most)
Also you need to go back and watch the oddy episode again. There are no spies in the federation at this point, the Dominions weapons ability to penetrate fed shields is never claimed to be a specific adaption for the federation, and there is never anywhere in the show any mention of the dominion doing anything to modify their shields to be super resistant to fed weapons. Thats pure made up on your part.
Yes the Oddy took a lot of hull damage. But that's a factor of it having all that non-combat stuff i've brought up on there. it mans there's a lot of non-critical area's they can hit without causing damage to anything important to it's fighting capabilities. The inverse applies to the defiant in the very next episode. Without shields and with no systems padding all it really had was it's ablative armor, and once that went, (and it always went in one or two volleys), it took damage really rapidly, doesn't change the fact that it punched out an attack ship no problem in one volley, (with the same phasers you claim the Jem'Hdar have adapted to).
I definitely agree with you on most of your points. BTW, I didn't say that the Galaxy class never performed well. I just pointed out that against MOST equal (or lesser) opponents, It didn't do that great of a job collectively. In all of those episodes that I listed (at least the ones where the ship survived) , the Galaxy class took a whoppin' and had to resort to the same "plot armor" to save the ship that the Galaxy fanboys suddenly denounce when it's being applied to another ship. For example, the fact that it took less than 5 SECONDS for a Romulan Warbird to knock down seventy percent of the Ent-D shields and cause appreciable damage ("Tin Man") when they weren't even trying to destroy the Ent-D, while the Ent-D couldn't take down a 20 year old BOP shields after MINUTES of fighting in Generations", shows that the Galaxy Class ship has some serious tactical issues.
Now, compare the last situation to the Defiant in "The Way of The Warrior" in it's fight with a BOP. In its first volley against the BOP it was facing off, two of the first shots missed. The third shot not only punched through the BOP shields, but caused significant damage to it hull, the next volley vaporized the BOP, within 5 seconds.
Also, compare the Prometheus in it's fight with the Romulan Warbird. It was also able to dispatch the Romuilan Warbird in 5 seconds. Again, these are just a couple of examples that showed that other ships can often perform combat duties better than the Galaxy.
The Gallaxy fanboys can complain about "the writers'" all the want, but this is the canon that they have to deal with, and all the mind numbing talk about "phaser array lengths" won't do, and has done, nothing to change the perception of the Galaxy's weaknesses, whether in-game or out.
Comments
I think that starfleet didnt have back then the aux2bat dem marion available:eek:
The Ambassador would have butthurt a Excelsior
just like a galaxy would do to a Ambassador
A Galaxy would Rollstomp a Excelsior
STO doesnt use canon...........not even a little bit
The Technical manuals prove this
There isnt anything Canon in STO except how some of the ships look ...and thats all
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
If you dont like the thread
Dont read it
Move long this isnt the thread your looking for
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Backround, i am in real life an engineer specializing in manufacturing tech.
the excelsior is all large solid parts, as opposed to every other starfleet ship which is a collection of small parts held together mostly with structural integrity fields. if a starfleet ship (and most other peoples ships) lost its SIF field generator it would kind of flop about like a deflating balloon, except for the excelsior.
the reason this is important is because it makes the excelsior very expensive to manufacture, with large specialized shipyards and manufacturing facilities that can build nothing else because nothing else is built like this.
why build it at all if you can get larger ship with further range at less than half the production costs with already existing infrastructure? because the excelsior was designed to handle the stresses of transwarp drive, and is to date the only starfleet ship capable of routinely handling the stress without blowing out a transwarp coil.
this makes the ship incredibly viable now, but before we reverse engineered transwarp from old borg tech (ty USS Voyager) it was just a large cruiser that was incredibly expensive to build. hence the ambassador, galaxy, and sovereign classes. the ambassador and galaxy are examples of what you can build at lesser or equal cost of production using different building techniques and existing infrastructure, and the sovereign is clearly a low cost excelsior replacement ship with a few more guns, a few less shuttle bays, and at 1/4 the cost.
why are there so many excelsior's if there so damn expensive? starfleet knew transwarp would work out eventually, and having a large number of transwarp capable warship hulls available would eventually pay off, which it apparently did. in the short term it was a battleship of its day effectively disguised as a constitution 3.0
why is the excelsior still a viable ship despite its age? it has a warp core at least 4x the size of a soverign, and thus 4x the power output, assuming equal tech of course.
why the ambassador despite all this? she has an even bigger warp core, longer range and duration of cruise and patrols, and stronger shields and weapons due to the larger powerplant.
her longer range made her more suited for exploration, hence the sci focus relative to her little sister.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Don't you know the rules of Internet Forums? All company names and other proper nouns need to be shortened and end in a 'y' or an 'ie'. I am not sure of the proper Name Game rules to determine which would get the 'y' and which the 'ie'. I know I have seen 'Amby' used on the forums. The others maybe could be:
NXie
Mirandy
Excelie
Chey
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I'm confused. They both have 4 fore and 4 aft weapons don't they?
The ship didn't EXIST canonically anywhere outside of the Wolf 359 graveyard. It's not a real functioning ship, it's just filler space debris.
Remember folks, up until the very end Trek was a LOW BUDGET show. The space battles were created using film of physical models... this was before computer generation even existed. In order to be within budget constraints a LOT of kitbashing was done.
There are several "classes" of starship said to exist based on the Wolf 359 debris field... reality is, they didn't... they weren't ever meant to be anything other than floating junk, they're horrendously ugly and violate several core Trek principles... we need to stay AWAY from them.
We don't know that for a fact. In fact given how it's treated by both Worf and Picard in the movie and how easily it dispatches both warbirds i don't think it holds up to any scrutiny whatsoever. Worf wouldn't have that awed WTF tone, Picard wouldn't be acting like it's incredibly well armed and it wouldn't have obliterated both warbirds so idilly once it got a good firing position. Yes it didn't obliterate the enterprise that quickly. But bear in mind that they also never used a RoF even close to what it did on the warbirds, (Donatra's warbird is particuarly relevent as the FX all origionate from one location indicating it was one disrupter on Rapid fire thus proving that the anemic Ro of the rest wasn't due to actual limit's of the cannons). Which given it was trying to disable the enterprise without causing serious damage, (and thus risking killing picard), isn't surprising. Compare the Enterprise D in Best of Both Worlds to it's shooting match with the Galor in The Wounded. In the latter it uses several volleys from a single phaser bank, in the Former it goes all out with 3 phaser banks and multiple torpedo volley's. If Shinzon had been trying to blow the enterprise up right from the start, (instead of deciding to after getting rammed), i doubt Picard would have even got to the bridge before it obliterated the enterprise. In particular note how despite his low RoF he still knocks out shield facings, (until the ent crew can scavenge power from elsewhere anyway), in a handful of shots. That's not low power shooting and probably indicates the romulan warbirds where nearly as well shielded as the Enterprise, they just didn't get break in the pounding to reinforce shields.
As for the thread main topic. Was gonna go into this in the big Gal thread but this will do.
First and foremost remember that the Excel refit is based on the Lackota. A design that stood toe to toe with the defiant, a ship that quite clearly crapped on the Gal's tactical capabilities by a huge Margin. But where never told what it gave up to get those capabilities, (basic engineering dictates there was some tradeoff even accounting for newer tech level upgrades). The Ambassador in it's few appearances is generally treated as a capable, but second rate tactical platform compared to the Galaxy. Though it gets so few it's hard to be sure, though i believe cannon out of show info also pegged it at a lower level.
Now i'm sure everyone will go: But the T5's are nearly all retrofits, like the Lakota!
Yes they are, but the Lakota was explicitly refitted with heavy duty tactical capabilities. By not upgrading the tactical systems at all or as much they could have used that internal volume and power those upgrades consumed for other things. That's the point of the Ambassador Refit and Gal Refit. They haven't put as much, (though i'm sure they put some), effort into the tactical side. Instead they focused on other area's. Both appears to be of very simila design based on known parameter's, being multi-mission vessel's. Whilst each was undoubtedly at the time of Launch the best armed class in the fleet, they also posses immense cargo space and science lab space, (the Gal in particular is shown as being able to carry out any science mission the Federation does, upto and including solo explorations of entire unexplored sectors, as well as providing planetary levels of disaster relief aid, moderate scale planetary evacuation capability, the ability to provide full solo support for colony efforts, and a rated 7 year endurance without resupply, (Voyager was 2 AFIK), and it does all that despite the cubage, power, and supply overheads of all those amilies). Thus whilst they are well armed, it very obviously not even close to where the majority of their volume and power output is going. They have way too many other capabilities taking space and power both for that to be the case. So when their refit's focused on those extra capabilities they rather naturally didn't get a massive tactical upgrade at the same time.
To be fair the only reason the Gal doesn't hold up is because of how gimped Engineering abilities are overall. Been thinking of writing a long essay on that. I'd also argue that the Gal's sci capabilities are seriously under represented. You also have to bear in mind that there's a degree of role enforce layout going on. Base don the Lakota the Excel refit really should have even more tac ability than it does, but because it's a cruiser it has an enforce minimum eng capability. This because of how weak Eng abilities are, and most sci too tend to bite them in the TRIBBLE.
But anyways... TNG did not exactly break the Ambassador Class model - it still had the markings from DS9's pilot episode... as the USS Yamaguchi when it was sold by Christie's.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Ambassador_class_model
Why the Ambassador was not used more often in the TNG production is a mystery. Maybe its due to reuse of stock footage.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
I assume she did. So did the Enterprise.
There just were not many ships of that class around and a lot more battles then we saw. They just were not involved in any of the 3 battles we saw.
Plus, with their fire power and small numbers they were likely never really on the front lines and more used to guard core Federation worlds.
Do you REALLY think the militaries of Star Trek would not upgrade / refit existing ships when they can as time and technology has progressed?
They do.
The Excelsior-class ships that still served from Kirk's time and into the Dominion War did get their refits.
Even Miranda light cruisers got refitted with new equipment. For instance, compare their phaser fire from Wrath of Khan to how they fired in the DS9 / Dominion War. In TWOK, the Phasers fired in very fast, phased pulses (canon like in a way). In DS9, they fired standard Phaser fire of the time, beams.
If nobody upgraded their ships, the VERY, VERY OLD Klingon B'Rel BOPs have been tearing it up from Kirk's time and into the Dominion War with no upgrades.
I'm not saying the old ships are on the same par as newer vessels. After all, they are typically smaller ships and ship designs have gotten larger in Star Trek, as well as newer, better, advanced shipbuilding techniques learned over time (as they do in real life). But they're not slouches with upgrades, and these upgrades allow them to perform duties in a modern setting. Not on the same par as their successors, but they can do the job still.
Ah, the extremely flawed logic that is behind the tier 5 excelsior. The defiant and Lakota are 3rd stringers at best, the fact that an old excelsior can match the defiant does not prove that Lakota>galaxy. Because the defiant, though powerful for its size, happens to be extremely tiny, and everything modern and intrepid sized or larger easily outguns the defiant. No ship in canon has displayed shows of force or damage per shot that match what the galaxy has displayed, not even the sovereign.
And about warp cores, what exactly does hight signify? Those just feed the mater and antimatter into the combustion chamber in the center. If anything, the volume of the combustion chamber would be the closest thing to indicating power output. The height of the core always just seems to connect the deuterium storage tank with the antimatter pods, the core is the single component that connects these 2 fuels.
I would say the Enterprise-E did in Nemesis.
If I remember me correctly even Gul Dukat said that the Defiant is one of the most heavily armed warships of the quadrant so I would not call her a 3rd stringer.
While the Galaxy we have not really seen a lot of what she can or can't do during the Dominion War.
The best scene were tow Galaxy class starships against a Galor, while the damage wasn't to bad, a squad of Peregrine Fighters was able to do more damage in the same episode.
The Peregines destroyed nearly the entire top section of that Galor.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/6x06/sacraficeofangels080.jpg
Tow Galaxy's and the damage they were doing was not really impressive.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/6x06/sacraficeofangels092.jpg
I really don't understand why anyone in the ST universe builds anything larger than shuttles, since following your argumentation those are far superior to capital ships
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Indeed, but now serious it looks like those shuttles have a bigger punch than a Galaxy.
You mean the same Galaxy that with shield power to weapon put dozens of shots into a jemh'dar attack ship and didn't even get through the shields whilst the defiant with full shield power to shields regularly punches them out in one shot. That Gal. Sorry but your wrong.
Your trying to justify a position that isn't supported by the actual on screen evidence. Nowhere is the Galaxy (in the few direct comparisons we can make), ever shown to have the kind of firepower your claiming.
Equally compare the Enterprises late season performance against those two ferengi crewed BoP's. A few volleys and the enterprise has no shields, (even the yesterday's enterprise Ent D got punched out by 3 BoP pretty rapidly whilst doing only modest damage in return). During Sisko's Rescue of the Detapa council they take on 3 and come out ahead with 2 down and no mention of serious shield damage, and that's on top of eating a bunch of fire to the shields from a Vorcha. Something similar happens during the dominon war. When those remote powered orbital weapon platforms come online and start shredding stuff they punch out the lights federation ships completely, punch out the Gal's shields, (but the sheer excess non-critical system hull volume appears to keep it from being destroyed outright in the first volley), whilst the defiant eats hits to the shields and comes out with intact shields and no visible hull damage. The Defiant is clearly also much better shielded.
It quite obvious that Size has no real bearing on the effectiveness of starfleet vessels. Which is no surprise. As i pointed out the Gals have huge endurance, huge shuttlebays, huge cargo bays, huge crews, and huge science systems eating lots of space and power both. Most of it's mass and volume is dedicated to non-combat system. I have a few theories on the topic beyond the above on screen stuff as well, but their only loosely, (implied but never directly stated), supported on screen, but if you want to hear them i'll happily elaborate.
Watch out, my friend. These Galaxy fanboys will start whining about "it's the writers fault" or "plot armor", or every other excuse in the book to try to explain away the crappy performance of the Galaxy class. It is totally inconceivable to them that the Galaxy Class ship has been shown to have some serious flaws to it, both offensively and defensively. ("The Arsenal of Freedom", "Darmok", "Tin Man", "Rascals", "The Nth Degree", "Generations", "The Jem'Haddar").
As you correctly pointed out, the Odyssey was unable to destroy a SINGLE Jem'Hadar ship even after it has transferred shield power to the weapons AND with the assistance of two Runabouts. It just couldn't get the job done.
Strangely enough, the definition of "canon" to these Galaxy fanboys is "nothing that shows the Galaxy class in a bad light", which is why they'll talk proudly about an episode like "The Wounded", and stick their fingers in their ears chanting "La-La-La" when episodes like "Rascals", "Tin Man", "Generations", "The Jem'Hadar", etc., are brought up, and then try to run to the TNG Tech Manual in order to attempt to invalidate the canon information illustrating the Galaxy's crappy performance.
Unfortunately for the Galaxy fanboys, Cryptic/CBS has chosen to go with the "Rascals" and "The Jem'Hadar" interpretation of the capabilities of the Galaxy class in STO, as opposed to the one that they were hoping for. C'est la vie.
What does ducat know seriously. Compared to his galors any new fed ship is super scary. not like sisko is going to correct him, oh ducat actually my pimp hands not all that really, compared to something like a galaxy. Remember in that episode the wounded where a top of the line galor proved all but harmless to the enterprise? And a nebula class smoked one with a single torpedo spread when it's shields were down? Ya, those were good times ducat.
Anyway, show of force, against an apparition created by a god. They actually let the ship go all out, seeing as it's target was invincible. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_XbWq49vUM any fight a galaxy lost in the show, if it was allowed to defend it self like that, would have resulted in an instant win.
Also the damage it caused that Borg cube in q who, in 3 hits vaporizing more volume of it then the enterprise had volume herself
The shots fired at that galor utilized a tiny amount of the phaser array, those were not maximum firepower shots, but shots to disable. Probably because they did not want to blow it up at point blank range with themselves.
Whatever you say yoga, size totally maters not. A space pt boat is totally stronger then a big gun battleship. The battle the odyssey fought was against bug ships that knew how to defeat both federation shields and weapons, because the alpha quadrant was already infiltrated by spies. The odyssey still hull tanked them for 10 minutes before disengaging under its own power. I don't recall the defiant doing that well the next episode.
Defiant fanboys tend to do this too.
Also, Intrepid fanboys. Pick your hero ship, and you'll have people saying that it can take out anything and everything and should be the most powerful ship ever.
In Star Trek terms, the Galaxy Class is likely stronger than the Defiant. Doesn't make the Defiant a slouch in combat, but the Galaxy class is just bigger, so it can take more hits while dishing out a lot of firepower.
No offence, but I have NEVER seen the "Defiant fanboys" or the "Intrepid fanboys" blaming "the writers" for any deficiencies shown in its performance, as I see with the Galaxy fanboys. Those "Defiant fanboys" and "Intrepid fanboys" seem to take the good with the bad and accept BOTH as canon, whether they like it or not, unlike these "Galaxy fanboys".
If you need further evidence of this, I would direct you to the 600+ page "Galaxy beef" thread where those Galaxy fanboys are all over the map with their definition of canon, while giving NUMEROUS personal insults to the Devs (and everyone else who doesn't agree with them), which has resulted in almost no "love" from those devs regarding giving the Galaxy fanboys the type of ship that they want, much to no one's surprise but theirs.
The Galaxy actually performs rather well in a number of situations and was undoubtedly a very potent ship. Hell in yesterday's Enterprise it still gets a kill, which assuming those BoP's have the same firepower as the prime universe ones, (comparable t the defiant), implies drastically weaker shields than the Galaxy.
Not really, the defiant never gets punched out in a few volleys like the enterprise did repeatedly. It degree of toughness did vary plenty, from strong to ludicrous, but it was always consistently able to survive repeated strikes when it's shields where up and functioning, (when not it certainly suffered as seen on a few occasions, but TBH that's is something only the gal ever shows an ability to put up with). Voyager on the other hand was vary varied, but then again we rarely saw it go up against the same opponent several times very often and rarely did it go up against anything else a starfleet ship encountered so it's not normal you can make a proper estimate of it's abilities. Not to mention how much Bellana and Seven supposedly upgraded everything to the point that it's probably got different levels at different times, (the Ent-D underwent a refit at the end of season 3 officially, but no major upgrades thereafter that i recall).
The Galaxy class never displays that kind of firepower against anything ever again. Hell if you look there was a Galaxy in the first Contact fleet, (it gets blown up trying to run as the cube blows), and guess what, despite the feds putting hug numbers of shots through the shields it never again does that. Hell the enterprise gets hits through the borgs shields and again, never gets hit's like that. That's a very obvious case of early installment weirdness.
Likewise, you claim the hits on the Galor where at partial strength. I'm calling you on it. Prove it.
Hint you can't. In fact given that picard goes to the trouble on several occasions to order worf to fire at reduced power your argument makes no sense. Why would worf fire at partial power when he hasn't been ordered to and past precedent shows that a shot at partial power requires an explicit order to that effect from the captain. Your argument makes no sense.
It is if the battleship isn't in fact a battleship but a converted bulk carrier, (known as merchant cruisers despite even the WW2 ones typically massing closer to a BB). That's the point you still refuse to acknowledge. The Gal is not a warship, it does not dedicate any significant percentage of it's volume or it's mass to weapons and shields. The defiant does, and it uses newer tech to boot, as well as some cool tricks, (it's routing of warp power through the weapons power coupling is noted as unique by thomas riker), so shock horror it actually hit's harder. Remember the defiant was explicitly designed to fight the borg and along with the Akira, Steamrunner, (and a few other classes), was designed to represent a new level of tactical capability to deal with this new threat. They wouldn't remotely fulfill that purpose if they where inferior to the allready existing Galaxy class, (which didn't do so awesome either, even if it did better than most)
Also you need to go back and watch the oddy episode again. There are no spies in the federation at this point, the Dominions weapons ability to penetrate fed shields is never claimed to be a specific adaption for the federation, and there is never anywhere in the show any mention of the dominion doing anything to modify their shields to be super resistant to fed weapons. Thats pure made up on your part.
Yes the Oddy took a lot of hull damage. But that's a factor of it having all that non-combat stuff i've brought up on there. it mans there's a lot of non-critical area's they can hit without causing damage to anything important to it's fighting capabilities. The inverse applies to the defiant in the very next episode. Without shields and with no systems padding all it really had was it's ablative armor, and once that went, (and it always went in one or two volleys), it took damage really rapidly, doesn't change the fact that it punched out an attack ship no problem in one volley, (with the same phasers you claim the Jem'Hdar have adapted to).
I was just pointing out that the Defiant fanboys tend to ignore when the ship fails just as much as you say the Galaxy fans do. The Defiant comes up less here because the in game ship itself is better than the games version of the Galaxy class.
I'm amused when people say that the Galaxy wasn't built for combat, therefor it's not good at fighting. It pretty much ignores how Starfleet designs ships.
I definitely agree with you on most of your points. BTW, I didn't say that the Galaxy class never performed well. I just pointed out that against MOST equal (or lesser) opponents, It didn't do that great of a job collectively. In all of those episodes that I listed (at least the ones where the ship survived) , the Galaxy class took a whoppin' and had to resort to the same "plot armor" to save the ship that the Galaxy fanboys suddenly denounce when it's being applied to another ship. For example, the fact that it took less than 5 SECONDS for a Romulan Warbird to knock down seventy percent of the Ent-D shields and cause appreciable damage ("Tin Man") when they weren't even trying to destroy the Ent-D, while the Ent-D couldn't take down a 20 year old BOP shields after MINUTES of fighting in Generations", shows that the Galaxy Class ship has some serious tactical issues.
Now, compare the last situation to the Defiant in "The Way of The Warrior" in it's fight with a BOP. In its first volley against the BOP it was facing off, two of the first shots missed. The third shot not only punched through the BOP shields, but caused significant damage to it hull, the next volley vaporized the BOP, within 5 seconds.
Also, compare the Prometheus in it's fight with the Romulan Warbird. It was also able to dispatch the Romuilan Warbird in 5 seconds. Again, these are just a couple of examples that showed that other ships can often perform combat duties better than the Galaxy.
The Gallaxy fanboys can complain about "the writers'" all the want, but this is the canon that they have to deal with, and all the mind numbing talk about "phaser array lengths" won't do, and has done, nothing to change the perception of the Galaxy's weaknesses, whether in-game or out.