Lets examine some trek facts for a minute if you will. Starfleet went by leaps and bounds because there allies where already leaps and bounds ahead and it took several hundred years to get there. Also there is a point where technological gain does drop off, we are seeing that today as a matter of fact. It is quite forseeable that a ship from the 2280's isn't that outgunned compared to a ship from the 2270's. Remember Starfleet used Photon Torpedo in its same basic design for over a century now, phaser power as we can see is regulated by the warp core post 2271 as stated by Mr Scott. Arrays seem more able to handle angles better but banks may be just as potent when supplied the same power. Shields are the only thing we can really argue about, we know they got stronger but by how much is unknown and by what standard are they reinforced is it warp power or another matter all together? Also would it not be possible to outfit old ships with new shield generators and array's. The Lakota was and the exterior of the ship did not change so your guess is as good as mine
I certainly would agree with you that the fundamental technology may not have changed all that over the 70-80 years between the end of the TOS/TMP era and the beginning of the TNG era. But how the tech is implemented and all the other bits associated with it may be radically different. Remember in the same episode when Scotty pulls open the dilithium chamber and freaks out over how the crystals are configured. But that points to a major difference how that basic technology has evolved, which likely evolved for many reasons.
But my bigger point was and is that there is a point at which an older ship could be further upgraded. While the tech may not be all that different the ability to refit the newer stuff and all the associated components (we forget about stuff like the wires, relays, plasma do-hickeys) may make it less than economically feasible to upgrade an older hull. I want to say on one of the fan oriented ST sites I used to go to many years ago had some comment about the Lakota vs. the Defiant. The Lakota refit program was in fact quite successful and proved that you could refit a suitable Excelsior hull with the best offensive and defensive systems that Starfleet had available. But it was a far better use of resources to go forward with the mass production of newer designs like the Defiant-class that could perform the same roles in a battle group just as effectively.
Part of this makes me beg the question, budget restrictions of a TV production aside, what would be an expected service life of a starship within the Trek world. Even in a post-scarcity economy each ship is a substantial investment and it should be expected to have a reasonable service life. Multiply it by (tens of) thousands of ships I can see longevity being a highly valued quality in starship design.
Part of this makes me beg the question, budget restrictions of a TV production aside, what would be an expected service life of a starship within the Trek world. Even in a post-scarcity economy each ship is a substantial investment and it should be expected to have a reasonable service life. Multiply it by (tens of) thousands of ships I can see longevity being a highly valued quality in starship design.
The TNG Tech Manual stated the Galaxy would expect to have a 100 years of service. That's assuming several Refits/Retrofits along the way. And even after that the ship would be converted to some other forum of service - colony transport/resupply ship, for example.
Even at the Wolf 359 battle there's a Constitution that's been destroyed, along with 38 other ships. The Miranda Class vessels are seen throughout the various TNG-era series, and that, too, would be a ship over 100 years old that's still in service.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
The TNG Tech Manual stated the Galaxy would expect to have a 100 years of service. That's assuming several Refits/Retrofits along the way. And even after that the ship would be converted to some other forum of service - colony transport/resupply ship, for example.
Even at the Wolf 359 battle there's a Constitution that's been destroyed, along with 38 other ships. The Miranda Class vessels are seen throughout the various TNG-era series, and that, too, would be a ship over 100 years old that's still in service.
What is an Excelsior but a Connie on steroids. as more of the ship was built the Connie was phased out. the Connie engineering hull seen at 359 could be from her cousin the Federation class which was in service longer.
I certainly would agree with you that the fundamental technology may not have changed all that over the 70-80 years between the end of the TOS/TMP era and the beginning of the TNG era. But how the tech is implemented and all the other bits associated with it may be radically different. Remember in the same episode when Scotty pulls open the dilithium chamber and freaks out over how the crystals are configured. But that points to a major difference how that basic technology has evolved, which likely evolved for many reasons.
But my bigger point was and is that there is a point at which an older ship could be further upgraded. While the tech may not be all that different the ability to refit the newer stuff and all the associated components (we forget about stuff like the wires, relays, plasma do-hickeys) may make it less than economically feasible to upgrade an older hull. I want to say on one of the fan oriented ST sites I used to go to many years ago had some comment about the Lakota vs. the Defiant. The Lakota refit program was in fact quite successful and proved that you could refit a suitable Excelsior hull with the best offensive and defensive systems that Starfleet had available. But it was a far better use of resources to go forward with the mass production of newer designs like the Defiant-class that could perform the same roles in a battle group just as effectively.
Part of this makes me beg the question, budget restrictions of a TV production aside, what would be an expected service life of a starship within the Trek world. Even in a post-scarcity economy each ship is a substantial investment and it should be expected to have a reasonable service life. Multiply it by (tens of) thousands of ships I can see longevity being a highly valued quality in starship design.
exactly the if a ship design is either verestile or cheap it will have a long service life. the Oberth was only recently replaced by the Nova. the TNG and DW Excel is the workhorse of the fleet and likely will for sometime. And the Miranda has 4 varients (note taking Soyuz into that count) but the also took the brunt of the deaths. the STO fed fleet should be more FC era ships
What is an Excelsior but a Connie on steroids. as more of the ship was built the Connie was phased out. the Connie engineering hull seen at 359 could be from her cousin the Federation class which was in service longer.
The Federation Class is canon-iffy. At best all we ever see of it is a single screenshot of a schematic in The Search for Spock - and we all know how Gene felt about 3 nacelle ships. They might have only made 1 and then abandoned the design.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
The Federation Class is canon-iffy. At best all we ever see of it is a single screenshot of a schematic in The Search for Spock - and we all know how Gene felt about 3 nacelle ships. They might have only made 1 and then abandoned the design.
Well Stargazer was supposed to be a Connie originally but decided against it. and cvonsidering other ship designs. Fed isn't bad. and she's plausible.
Does anyone have information as to whether the Devs have any plans to make other Cruisers more on-par with the Fleet excelsior? like a better Galaxy, Ambassador, Sovy, etc.? Or, is there 0 chance of this happening? Has Gecko ever mentioned this?
...
You do know the Fleet Sovereign is equal to the excel, if not better?
That aside, didn't you know? All cruisers are WAD. They are designed to suck. This is Escorts Online after all.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
NOT true. people just need to know how to work cruisers
No.. DEFINITELY true. Cruisers and Sci are relegated to the nosebleeds, and have been progressively made redundant season after season. The problem is multi-fold. On one hand you have a game that's dps centric in terms of rewards and progression, Escorts excel in this and thus pretty much get everything. There is no/little thought for battlefield control scoring for science, or sustained damage and healing for cruisers/scis.
For instance, even the best cruiser will not rank in the presence of 3 other good escorts in say, gorn minefield. From the very OUTSET, that cruiser has a massive probability of not ranking, simply because of the class of vessel he's piloting.
That's only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to gripes with the "Trinity" of ships in this game, and how unbalanced they really are.
When you have escorts being able to tank cubes in elite stfs, you have a problem. Having both high dps and great tanking just leaves the other classes redundant.
Trust me, I know. I've seen this multiple times in STO and I've been a cruiser captain for over 2 years to see what's happening in the game and the issues of balance between the classes.
I for one doubt the devs even play cruisers or scis to an extent anymore. The cynic in me really thinks they just threw on cannons on the Vesta, simply because they were so used to escorts that they couldnt abide the loss of dps they had on escorts. Treating the symptom of the issue and not the cause.
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No.. DEFINITELY true. Cruisers and Sci are relegated to the nosebleeds, and have been progressively made redundant season after season...*snip*... Treating the symptom of the issue and not the cause.
agreed. But i have a feeling that they are starting now, or atleast hope, that they design new content towards making all ship classes more suited for certain encounters.
After all, your captain can switch between ship classes in a matter of minutes. (that fact seems to be ignored by most players)
So i'd like to see how the content evolves in the coming seasons, i mean there is definately a tendency that takes the player away from maxing DPS...not enough though yet.
PS: In a game where the main profit is made through selling more and more ships to players, it would only be logical to have content that requires people to swap ships more frequently. (although the current skill tree kind of hinders that)
After all, your captain can switch between ship classes in a matter of minutes. (that fact seems to be ignored by most players)
it not ignore, it just a pain.
you have to have different BO than the over classe you fly previously, your skillpoint build will not be optimal, and it will take a big bunch of time to refill the tray of your power, and then do the same things all over again when you switch back to you other ship.
so yeah, we certainly don't forget or ignore it, but we certainly dismisse it totally.
it not ignore, it just a pain.
you have to have different BO than the over classe you fly previously, your skillpoint build will not be optimal, and it will take a big bunch of time to refill the tray of your power, and then do the same things all over again when you switch back to you other ship.
so yeah, we certainly don't forget or ignore it, but we certainly dismisse it totally.
yeah this seriously needs improvement...it almost seems that cryptic contradicts itself in this aspect.
players are encouraged to buy multiple ships per captain...but the changing ships is a serious pain in the bottom.
i think this still comes from the transition to f2p, which i find went really well, but can't be seen as completed.
biggest issue i see are BOFF powers (can be overcome with buying additional boff slots, but remains complicated) and skilltree...the skilltree is in my opinion obsolete anyway, since there are only a few things you would skill differently depending on your ship...many skills you choose no matter the ship, i would say 70% are allways the same.
for the tray part, i was under the impression that once the buttons are set, the tray is saved to that ship, forever. Only if you setup a completely new ship you need to readjust them.
I got 3rd several times in my two best cruisers, an Oddy Tac and a Galaxy-X, but I don't think I placed in my mirror advanced escort.
Everywhere I look, people are screaming about how bad Cryptic is.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
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in cannon or out makes no difference really what is important to rember is that the bigger the ship the longer to build it takes.
that being said in rl or star trek the fleet would do phased commissionings and removing hulls to the reserve fleets so newer designs would have less active hulls while they are in build up.
but in an actice conflict the axiom is who gets there with the mostest the fastest is likely the winner, so poof ooo look we have these 300 exels in mothballs that can be recomissioned faster than building 10 new hulls lets rush them through a fast refit and send them. while the ambas was a short lived hull used more as a test bed than a full phased run. so less ambas in storage to send plus its a larger hull and would require more refit time over all.
look at ww2 with the liberty ships, clearely they were inferior to what could be built but they were cheap and could be build faster than a "modern" ship with all the bells and whistles.
in cannon or out makes no difference really what is important to rember is that the bigger the ship the longer to build it takes.
that being said in rl or star trek the fleet would do phased commissionings and removing hulls to the reserve fleets so newer designs would have less active hulls while they are in build up.
but in an actice conflict the axiom is who gets there with the mostest the fastest is likely the winner, so poof ooo look we have these 300 exels in mothballs that can be recomissioned faster than building 10 new hulls lets rush them through a fast refit and send them. while the ambas was a short lived hull used more as a test bed than a full phased run. so less ambas in storage to send plus its a larger hull and would require more refit time over all.
look at ww2 with the liberty ships, clearely they were inferior to what could be built but they were cheap and could be build faster than a "modern" ship with all the bells and whistles.
Bingo, at this point there was hundreds of Miranda and excels at this point while Ambassadors AT MOST maybe 30 ships and Galaxy maybe 10.
Here is a sampling of some areas, with at least (1) being a canon reference: The Star Trek Encylopedia [page 7]. "The Ambassador class model, built by Greg Jein was intended to suggest an intermediate step between Excelsior / Galaxy class starships."
Sure, designs evolve. It does not mean that every intermediate design was successful, popular, or successfully replaced its predecessor. COUGH WINDOWS VISTA COUGH.
Again, not a canonical source. Even then, being developed as a replacement does not necessarily mean it was successful in doing so. You only need to look at Windows Vista to see a developed replacement that not only failed to replace, but flopped miserably.
until ships are built to the same specs as teh designs for the ships in the shows there will be very little way to make an absolutely ballanced version of every ship. I have started to feel that the ships in the game need a major overhaul in the way they are constructed. The warp cores seem to be the start of it. Converting consoles into usable devices for the unique consoles will help, and expanding the number of weapon placements available on a ship will also help. Unique weapon placements on ships will also add to the uniqueness to ships. a 360 degree phaser beam array on a Defiant class ship, or a 300 degree main phaser bank on the saucer section of a Galaxy class ship.
A cruiser would have more staying power so the Defiant would be at a huge disadvantage after spending its complement of torpedoes, if it ever got though shields and impressive armor of a cruiser in the first place.
The Defiant's role would be to bolster local defenses or be rapid deployment to protect shipping lanes from pirates and raiders. Escorts would have to make repeated returns to the station, carrier or base it was defending to restock torpedoes in a stained engagement. While economical they are best used to respond to changing battle field conditions, and deployed in large enough numbers to maintain effectiveness during inevitable attrition. They harry the enemy, and attempt to disrupt the enemies plans. Distraction and disruption are their role.
In Star Fleet several cruiser and frigate classes were modular, so the same class could serve different roles. This could be why some ships could theoretically stay in service for decades but may serve different roles at different times.
At times Starfleet had 1300 active ships with others in reserve but at other times would exceed 1900 active ships during times of conflict. (2268 to2295)
No.. DEFINITELY true. Cruisers and Sci are relegated to the nosebleeds, and have been progressively made redundant season after season. The problem is multi-fold. On one hand you have a game that's dps centric in terms of rewards and progression, Escorts excel in this and thus pretty much get everything. There is no/little thought for battlefield control scoring for science, or sustained damage and healing for cruisers/scis.
That's only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to gripes with the "Trinity" of ships in this game, and how unbalanced they really are.
I for one doubt the devs even play cruisers or scis to an extent anymore.
The cynic in me really thinks they just threw on cannons on the Vesta, simply because they were so used to escorts that they couldnt abide the loss of dps they had on escorts. Treating the symptom of the issue and not the cause.
Ozy, your post is pure awesomeness!!! That is seriously true. I still think the devs need to seriously look over all Cruisers and revamp their roles. (imo), they are just too similar to one another, and compared to a Science or Escort, they are inferior...It's a shame I made my initial toon an Engineer in a Cruiser 3 years ago (seemed OK at the time). My, how things change. I can't bring myself to play that toon anymore. To add to what you said, I feel the same way about the Vesta. It's clearly the Devs favorite Fed ship, (well, EXCEPT for Gecko, hehe) so naturally, it gets the cannons
I still feel the fleet Excel is OP compared to the rest of the Cruisers, and that turns my stomach. A ship a mere 25-30 years newer than a Connie is the B-E-S-T cruiser in 2409! I hate DS9 (the series) for that reason (Lakota).
If you want a true linage of Star Trek ships think of them this way
Constitution -- Flag Ship sent on long range missions of exploration/front line defense 2245-2285, Superseded by Excelsior Class relegated to Diplomatic/Ferrying/patrol/training missions 2285-2293?
Excelsior -- Flag Ship sent on long range missions of exploration/front line defense 2285-?, Superseded by Excelsior Class relegated to Diplomatic/Ferrying/patrol/training missions -?
Ambassador -- Flag Ship sent on long range missions of exploration/front line defense ?2332-?, Superseded by Galaxy Class unknown current assignment likly continuing previous assignment of long range exploration and scientific mandate
Galaxy -- Flag Ship sent on long range missions of exploration/front line defense 2360-?, 2370's - ? Long Range Exploration/diplomatic Missions
Sovereign -- Flag Ship sent on long range missions of exploration/front line defense 2271-?
Now lets also now look at the time they where developed and the reasons behind there design
Constitution Class designed at a time of uneasy peace, Romulan war is only 80 years in the past, new advancements in computer technology and likely warp speed technology. Active Service in 2409 Training Vessel/Courie Ship if any are still Active at all.
Excelsior Class designed at a time of hightend tensions with the Klingon Empire, boarder skirmish's likely frequent along the Neutral Zone during the planning stage. Unknown hull stress at transwarp speeds would also cause the thicker sections of the hull we see on this design. Likely role in 2409 Diplomatic Missions/Cargo and Personal Transport/Patrol of interior Federation Space.
Ambassador Class designed after peace was achieved with the Klingon Empire, and after Tomed Incident, Romulans sign treaty and recede into there Empire, time of relative peace, the need for heavily armed ships of the past century seems pointless during its design time most likely. Likely Assignment in 2409 Diplomatic Missions/Long Range Exploration outside of Federation Boarders/Boarder Patrol.
Galaxy Class designed after hostilities broke out with the Cardassian Union and Tholian Empire, designed to deal with threats more efficiently but also designed to carry out long range scientific assignments, crew comforts are increased to handle the needs of a large number of civilians on board these class's of ship. Assignment in 2409, long range exploration/first contact/boarder Patrol
Now taking into account the linage of these vessels and what they where designed to do as well as there current role it makes alot of sense. The Excelscior is now mainly a transport/ferry and patrols the interior of Federation space, the need for scientific capabilitiy is reduced the hulls though are large and easily able to handle cargo and given its mission of patrol it would be outfitted for this role in terms of combat capabilty.
The Ambassador was designed in a time of relative peace in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants so the focus was on science and less on combat, being outfitted to defend its self, but not for the possibilies of war. This is appearant in the over all hull design being larger and having the same amount of hardpoints as the previous Excelsior Class. These ships still serve there function quite nicely with a good balance slightly leaning towards science.
The Galaxy class was built to overcome to short comings of the Ambassador in both weapon load out and crew morale. There is little reason to think the Federation was loosing the war, as a matter of fact both conflicts would appear to have ended in a stalemate so Starfleets current lineup was sufficient to handle the threats already posed to the Federation. The Galaxy shows its intention of long term exploration while being tough by having amble science and engineering ability while still being able to defend itself from a direct assault.
The weakness of all these classes was evident to Starfleet after Wolf 359 and new ships came out built to fill specific roles as can be seen with ships that came after this event being more specialized and less general purpose.
What can we gather from this information, that Starfleet did not design any class to surpass another in its current assignment but to expand the fleet to allow further exploration and contact with distant worlds while maintaining a fleet mostly for defensive purpose.
An example of this is quite clear given Starfleet designs pre and post 2367.
The Miranda's/Nebula's that where generally assigned interior patrol/transportation/Cargo/Scientific missions where gradually replaced by other ships such as Akira (Fire Support/Fighter Support), Steamrunner (long term boarder patrol/Fire Support), Saber (Boarder Patrol/Fast Response), Defiant (Patrol/Short Range Tactical Assignments, Prometheus (Long Range Tactical Assignments)
The Oberth's where replaced by the Nova Class allowing possibly faster warp speed, modern computer systems, better defensive capabilities
The Excel, Ambassador, Galaxy got replaced in alot of ways by these ships, Intrepid (Long Range scientific missions/First Contact Assignments). Sovereign (First Contact Assignments/Long Range Exploration/Fleet Support/First Responder)
This is likely how these vessels are used and some extrapolation done from the current game as well.
History written by: Steve Mallory - based on information found in Star Trek: First Contact, Star Trek: Voyager, Star Trek Technical Manual, Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, Star Trek: Deep Space 9 Technical Manual, and Star Trek: The Magazine. The style of the history is based on histories presented in the Startrek Spaceflight Chronology by Stan Goldstein, Fred Goldstein, and Rick Sternbach. Please keep in mind that this is a history developed based on canon information presented in various sources and filled in with logical conjecture.
Now an important footnote in the lineage of many a starship, the Ambassador Class is no longer the backbone of Starfleet's exploration nor defensive arms. Once the pride of the fleet and considered, at the time, to be the pinnacle of starship development, technology developed for the Ambassador class has exploded into common usage among other classes of starships, while the grand spaceframe has slipped from active production and is slowly being replaced by newer designs, it still remains a notable class of vessel that continues to serve with distinction.
The Ambassador Class starship was a large departure from current trends in ship design when it was conceived. Nearly twice as large as the current mainstay, the Excelsior Class starship, the Ambassador class would change the face of Starfleet and influence ship design for decades to come. Initial design concepts were developed and toyed with at the newly formed Advanced Starship Design Bureau, Mars in 2249; some of the first concept models and drawings are still on display at the ASDB Museum. However, given the scale of the craft, the concept would remain just that until 2292, when a dramatic shift in Galactic Politics occurred. A shift that would effect the Federation, the Romulan Star Empire and the Klingon Empire well into the next century.
In early 2290, a marked increase of hostilities along the Klingon and Federation border occurred. This disturbing trend reached a peak in 2291 when the USS Oberon (NCC 4998) was forced to withdraw from an engagement against 2 B'rel Class Birds of Prey. According to published reports, Captain Oded Hammlin believed the vessel to be an arms smuggling corvette enroute from Andor to Klingon Space, and stopped the vessel before entering the neutral zone. 2 B'Rel Class Birds of Prey intercepted the Oberon and threatened to defend the corvette, accusing the Oberon of piracy. When the Oberon refused to withdraw, the B'Rel vessels engaged and disabled the Oberon while taking minimal damage. The Klingon Council quickly learned of their new vessels clear advantages against the backbone of the Federation and became increasingly daring in their action in and around the Neutral Zone. Up until the Ambassador class was launched, several more incidents of Excelsior class starships being forced to withdraw from tense confrontations due to being outgunned and out shielded by the newer B?rel class Birds of Prey occurred. The withdrawals illustrated just how dated and stagnant the United Federations of Planets Starfleet had become. Immediately, the design teams at Utopia Planitia quickly addressed this situation and, blowing the dust off of their concept models, quickly began work on the Ambassador Class Starship. Official sanctioning by Starfleet occurred in 2311 after the Tomed incident and funding and resources were allocated for the development of a new Defense Cruiser.
The Ambassador project would prove to set a new standard in starship design for the Federation, giving Starfleet a starship that was better armed, better equipped and more diversely equipped than any other starship ever before. The design brief for the Ambassador class starship called for a heavily armed Battlecruiser which could also serve the non-combat roles of heavy transport and deep space exploration. The resulting design exceeded expectations and the Ambassador class was quickly put into service.
Several design aspects of the Ambassador class made the space frame unique and were carried over into future designs. Among these was the increased internal cargo, crew and fuel capacity combined with an increased lift capability that gave the Ambassador class not only great size, but an endurance that rivaled the Excelsior Class and crew amenities allowing for much longer on station and patrol times, meaning more Ambassador class starships could remain on patrol longer and with less crew fatigue. Some of the last Ambassador class starships also had thick duranium armor, the precursor to the Defiant Class ablative armor, added to protect the vulnerable areas of the ship. Finally, the development of Phaser Array, which replaced the traditional Phaser Turret found on previous hull types such as the Excelsior and Miranda class hulls, were made standard for the Ambassador class. The arrays allowed for quicker recharge times and the ability to fire at multiple targets out of one array, rather than targeting turrets individually.
So successful were the Ambassador Class vessels, that the production team began looking at designing an improved Ambassador Class vessel. While shaving nearly 15 meters of length, resulting in a much smaller cargo hauling capability, the team was able to make the already hearty Ambassador Class more nimble in combat situations. The addition of 4 more phaser arrays also gave the class more bite. Further improvements in shielding, sensor, and computer technology would be implemented in the Ambassador-Refit design, but these advancements would not be enough to warrant a further production contract beyond the initial 1000 starships ordered by Starfleet. While the final 150 Ambassador Class vessels were of the Refit variety, the improvements and advancements made by the Ambassadors would be short-lived as a new age of Starship production was about to begin.
However, with the advent of the successful Akira and the announcement of the "Grand Redesign of the Fleet" with the Cheyenne, Galaxy and Nebula class starships, production of the Ambassador class slipped markedly. The Nebula Class, the new workhorse of the fleet, could fill the same roles as the Ambassador class, and could do them more efficiently and with greater range. As a result, the Ambassador mission role became more and more limited to the role of border patrol and defensive specialist with fewer and fewer assigned to deep space exploration and diplomatic transport. Continued refits kept the majority of the Ambassador class starships in service, despite the end of their active production run. The currently active starships serve the Federation well, but the recent Borg incursions and war with the Dominion has cut down severely the number of Ambassador class starships that remain in active service. Most of the Ambassador class starships were lost or damaged beyond repair, resulting in the decommissioning of the majority of active Ambassador starships. The current trend in Starship has also phased the Ambassador class out, with less crew intensive starships being the order of the day.
Just figured to dig this out for the sake of this argument.
There's also this as to the simple reasons why newer ships in a type (cruisers, light cruisers, battleships/dreadnoughts) are superior than their predecessors, esp. in Star Trek.
Size. Size and bulk (1, 2... and how about that Dominion Battleship? WHEW!!!). Simply put, you can cram alot more cool stuff in a larger warship than you would in a smaller one. Not to mention the newer warship was purpose built to use current technology.
The Excelsior was a clear, cutting edge technological wonder for its time. It was obvious in the movies when you compared the USS Excelsior to the older USS Enterprise / Constitution Refits that Starfleet got its act together for this new class. With the advent of TNG and the Galaxy, you can believe the Excelsior was that "bridge" into the later TNG era ships.
Then you have the Ambassador. Later introduced some time into TNG's run, and we know it to precede the Galaxy class, which itself was the pride of Starfleet when they began production. The Ambassador though came after the Excelsior, and would have reaped whatever new technological developments made at the time. It would be superior to what the Excelsior was capable of.
I would go onto say that the Ambassador may not have such a large, technological leap over the Excelsior. But there's no way in hell that the Excelsior, refitted or not, should be comparable to the Galaxy class, much less the epitome of Starfleet technology, the Sovereign class, and much less the newer, larger Cruisers / Heavy Cruisers introduced by Starfleet.
And Constellation Class ships. And Wambundus. And all sorts of others that are oddly absent from this hypothetical.
Constell was not that successful design only about 6 in total built. Never heard of the Wambundus. Oberth, Miranda, and Excel are the most produce classes in starfleet and note Ambassador was arounf for twenty years and they wouldn't be mass produced as fast as the other 3. so my 20-30 is a guess but a logical one.
Also I didn't exclude other classes just point out at that DW era what ships numbers for each class might be. other classes may have dozens made but the modualr desgin of the the big three saw them easily adpated and used. the Lakota was a sign of this top update the Excel one more time and fairly successful. Post DW however many of these ships will be gone and more First Contact ships will replaced them more and more. in STO the Excel is likely nearly done in it's service life.
Constell was not that successful design only about 6 in total built.
According to Sternbach, there were 8. And it was successful enough as both a long range exploratory vessel and a defensive patrol vessel in its time. So successful in fact, that it got used again by Riker in a war game. Considering the long tenure of the Stargazer and the comparatively short tenure of the Enterprise-C, I wouldn't knock the Constellation class of ship. It bridges the gap between the Excelsior and the Ambassador, even if zillions of folks like to forget about it.
Never heard of the Wambundus.
It's from the Encyclopedia. The one I remember most clearly is the USS Drake. Riker was offered it. Refused. Captain Rice took command of it. It was destroyed.
Oberth, Miranda, and Excel are the most produce classes in starfleet and note Ambassador was arounf for twenty years and they wouldn't be mass produced as fast as the other 3. so my 20-30 is a guess but a logical one.
There's a whole host of other classes of ships though. Springfield, Korolev, Niagra, Apollo, Bradbury, Freedom, Merced, Renaissance, even the Cheyenne. Some of these were contemporary to the time period of the Ambassador. Along with the Constellation. And stayed in service on into the time of the Galaxy.
Comments
I certainly would agree with you that the fundamental technology may not have changed all that over the 70-80 years between the end of the TOS/TMP era and the beginning of the TNG era. But how the tech is implemented and all the other bits associated with it may be radically different. Remember in the same episode when Scotty pulls open the dilithium chamber and freaks out over how the crystals are configured. But that points to a major difference how that basic technology has evolved, which likely evolved for many reasons.
But my bigger point was and is that there is a point at which an older ship could be further upgraded. While the tech may not be all that different the ability to refit the newer stuff and all the associated components (we forget about stuff like the wires, relays, plasma do-hickeys) may make it less than economically feasible to upgrade an older hull. I want to say on one of the fan oriented ST sites I used to go to many years ago had some comment about the Lakota vs. the Defiant. The Lakota refit program was in fact quite successful and proved that you could refit a suitable Excelsior hull with the best offensive and defensive systems that Starfleet had available. But it was a far better use of resources to go forward with the mass production of newer designs like the Defiant-class that could perform the same roles in a battle group just as effectively.
Part of this makes me beg the question, budget restrictions of a TV production aside, what would be an expected service life of a starship within the Trek world. Even in a post-scarcity economy each ship is a substantial investment and it should be expected to have a reasonable service life. Multiply it by (tens of) thousands of ships I can see longevity being a highly valued quality in starship design.
Even at the Wolf 359 battle there's a Constitution that's been destroyed, along with 38 other ships. The Miranda Class vessels are seen throughout the various TNG-era series, and that, too, would be a ship over 100 years old that's still in service.
What is an Excelsior but a Connie on steroids. as more of the ship was built the Connie was phased out. the Connie engineering hull seen at 359 could be from her cousin the Federation class which was in service longer.
exactly the if a ship design is either verestile or cheap it will have a long service life. the Oberth was only recently replaced by the Nova. the TNG and DW Excel is the workhorse of the fleet and likely will for sometime. And the Miranda has 4 varients (note taking Soyuz into that count) but the also took the brunt of the deaths. the STO fed fleet should be more FC era ships
Well Stargazer was supposed to be a Connie originally but decided against it. and cvonsidering other ship designs. Fed isn't bad. and she's plausible.
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You do know the Fleet Sovereign is equal to the excel, if not better?
That aside, didn't you know? All cruisers are WAD. They are designed to suck. This is Escorts Online after all.
NOT true. people just need to know how to work cruisers
No.. DEFINITELY true. Cruisers and Sci are relegated to the nosebleeds, and have been progressively made redundant season after season. The problem is multi-fold. On one hand you have a game that's dps centric in terms of rewards and progression, Escorts excel in this and thus pretty much get everything. There is no/little thought for battlefield control scoring for science, or sustained damage and healing for cruisers/scis.
For instance, even the best cruiser will not rank in the presence of 3 other good escorts in say, gorn minefield. From the very OUTSET, that cruiser has a massive probability of not ranking, simply because of the class of vessel he's piloting.
That's only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to gripes with the "Trinity" of ships in this game, and how unbalanced they really are.
When you have escorts being able to tank cubes in elite stfs, you have a problem. Having both high dps and great tanking just leaves the other classes redundant.
Trust me, I know. I've seen this multiple times in STO and I've been a cruiser captain for over 2 years to see what's happening in the game and the issues of balance between the classes.
I for one doubt the devs even play cruisers or scis to an extent anymore. The cynic in me really thinks they just threw on cannons on the Vesta, simply because they were so used to escorts that they couldnt abide the loss of dps they had on escorts. Treating the symptom of the issue and not the cause.
Lag Watch:
Delta Rising: Warning
Anniversary Event: Severe
Iconian Season: Critical
agreed. But i have a feeling that they are starting now, or atleast hope, that they design new content towards making all ship classes more suited for certain encounters.
After all, your captain can switch between ship classes in a matter of minutes. (that fact seems to be ignored by most players)
So i'd like to see how the content evolves in the coming seasons, i mean there is definately a tendency that takes the player away from maxing DPS...not enough though yet.
PS: In a game where the main profit is made through selling more and more ships to players, it would only be logical to have content that requires people to swap ships more frequently. (although the current skill tree kind of hinders that)
it not ignore, it just a pain.
you have to have different BO than the over classe you fly previously, your skillpoint build will not be optimal, and it will take a big bunch of time to refill the tray of your power, and then do the same things all over again when you switch back to you other ship.
so yeah, we certainly don't forget or ignore it, but we certainly dismisse it totally.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
yeah this seriously needs improvement...it almost seems that cryptic contradicts itself in this aspect.
players are encouraged to buy multiple ships per captain...but the changing ships is a serious pain in the bottom.
i think this still comes from the transition to f2p, which i find went really well, but can't be seen as completed.
biggest issue i see are BOFF powers (can be overcome with buying additional boff slots, but remains complicated) and skilltree...the skilltree is in my opinion obsolete anyway, since there are only a few things you would skill differently depending on your ship...many skills you choose no matter the ship, i would say 70% are allways the same.
for the tray part, i was under the impression that once the buttons are set, the tray is saved to that ship, forever. Only if you setup a completely new ship you need to readjust them.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
that being said in rl or star trek the fleet would do phased commissionings and removing hulls to the reserve fleets so newer designs would have less active hulls while they are in build up.
but in an actice conflict the axiom is who gets there with the mostest the fastest is likely the winner, so poof ooo look we have these 300 exels in mothballs that can be recomissioned faster than building 10 new hulls lets rush them through a fast refit and send them. while the ambas was a short lived hull used more as a test bed than a full phased run. so less ambas in storage to send plus its a larger hull and would require more refit time over all.
look at ww2 with the liberty ships, clearely they were inferior to what could be built but they were cheap and could be build faster than a "modern" ship with all the bells and whistles.
Bingo, at this point there was hundreds of Miranda and excels at this point while Ambassadors AT MOST maybe 30 ships and Galaxy maybe 10.
In other words, not a canonical source and purely conjectural.
Again, not a canonical source. Even then, being developed as a replacement does not necessarily mean it was successful in doing so. You only need to look at Windows Vista to see a developed replacement that not only failed to replace, but flopped miserably.
The Defiant's role would be to bolster local defenses or be rapid deployment to protect shipping lanes from pirates and raiders. Escorts would have to make repeated returns to the station, carrier or base it was defending to restock torpedoes in a stained engagement. While economical they are best used to respond to changing battle field conditions, and deployed in large enough numbers to maintain effectiveness during inevitable attrition. They harry the enemy, and attempt to disrupt the enemies plans. Distraction and disruption are their role.
In Star Fleet several cruiser and frigate classes were modular, so the same class could serve different roles. This could be why some ships could theoretically stay in service for decades but may serve different roles at different times.
At times Starfleet had 1300 active ships with others in reserve but at other times would exceed 1900 active ships during times of conflict. (2268 to2295)
Ozy, your post is pure awesomeness!!! That is seriously true. I still think the devs need to seriously look over all Cruisers and revamp their roles. (imo), they are just too similar to one another, and compared to a Science or Escort, they are inferior...It's a shame I made my initial toon an Engineer in a Cruiser 3 years ago (seemed OK at the time). My, how things change. I can't bring myself to play that toon anymore. To add to what you said, I feel the same way about the Vesta. It's clearly the Devs favorite Fed ship, (well, EXCEPT for Gecko, hehe) so naturally, it gets the cannons
I still feel the fleet Excel is OP compared to the rest of the Cruisers, and that turns my stomach. A ship a mere 25-30 years newer than a Connie is the B-E-S-T cruiser in 2409! I hate DS9 (the series) for that reason (Lakota).
Constitution -- Flag Ship sent on long range missions of exploration/front line defense 2245-2285, Superseded by Excelsior Class relegated to Diplomatic/Ferrying/patrol/training missions 2285-2293?
Excelsior -- Flag Ship sent on long range missions of exploration/front line defense 2285-?, Superseded by Excelsior Class relegated to Diplomatic/Ferrying/patrol/training missions -?
Ambassador -- Flag Ship sent on long range missions of exploration/front line defense ?2332-?, Superseded by Galaxy Class unknown current assignment likly continuing previous assignment of long range exploration and scientific mandate
Galaxy -- Flag Ship sent on long range missions of exploration/front line defense 2360-?, 2370's - ? Long Range Exploration/diplomatic Missions
Sovereign -- Flag Ship sent on long range missions of exploration/front line defense 2271-?
Now lets also now look at the time they where developed and the reasons behind there design
Constitution Class designed at a time of uneasy peace, Romulan war is only 80 years in the past, new advancements in computer technology and likely warp speed technology. Active Service in 2409 Training Vessel/Courie Ship if any are still Active at all.
Excelsior Class designed at a time of hightend tensions with the Klingon Empire, boarder skirmish's likely frequent along the Neutral Zone during the planning stage. Unknown hull stress at transwarp speeds would also cause the thicker sections of the hull we see on this design. Likely role in 2409 Diplomatic Missions/Cargo and Personal Transport/Patrol of interior Federation Space.
Ambassador Class designed after peace was achieved with the Klingon Empire, and after Tomed Incident, Romulans sign treaty and recede into there Empire, time of relative peace, the need for heavily armed ships of the past century seems pointless during its design time most likely. Likely Assignment in 2409 Diplomatic Missions/Long Range Exploration outside of Federation Boarders/Boarder Patrol.
Galaxy Class designed after hostilities broke out with the Cardassian Union and Tholian Empire, designed to deal with threats more efficiently but also designed to carry out long range scientific assignments, crew comforts are increased to handle the needs of a large number of civilians on board these class's of ship. Assignment in 2409, long range exploration/first contact/boarder Patrol
Now taking into account the linage of these vessels and what they where designed to do as well as there current role it makes alot of sense. The Excelscior is now mainly a transport/ferry and patrols the interior of Federation space, the need for scientific capabilitiy is reduced the hulls though are large and easily able to handle cargo and given its mission of patrol it would be outfitted for this role in terms of combat capabilty.
The Ambassador was designed in a time of relative peace in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants so the focus was on science and less on combat, being outfitted to defend its self, but not for the possibilies of war. This is appearant in the over all hull design being larger and having the same amount of hardpoints as the previous Excelsior Class. These ships still serve there function quite nicely with a good balance slightly leaning towards science.
The Galaxy class was built to overcome to short comings of the Ambassador in both weapon load out and crew morale. There is little reason to think the Federation was loosing the war, as a matter of fact both conflicts would appear to have ended in a stalemate so Starfleets current lineup was sufficient to handle the threats already posed to the Federation. The Galaxy shows its intention of long term exploration while being tough by having amble science and engineering ability while still being able to defend itself from a direct assault.
The weakness of all these classes was evident to Starfleet after Wolf 359 and new ships came out built to fill specific roles as can be seen with ships that came after this event being more specialized and less general purpose.
What can we gather from this information, that Starfleet did not design any class to surpass another in its current assignment but to expand the fleet to allow further exploration and contact with distant worlds while maintaining a fleet mostly for defensive purpose.
An example of this is quite clear given Starfleet designs pre and post 2367.
The Miranda's/Nebula's that where generally assigned interior patrol/transportation/Cargo/Scientific missions where gradually replaced by other ships such as Akira (Fire Support/Fighter Support), Steamrunner (long term boarder patrol/Fire Support), Saber (Boarder Patrol/Fast Response), Defiant (Patrol/Short Range Tactical Assignments, Prometheus (Long Range Tactical Assignments)
The Oberth's where replaced by the Nova Class allowing possibly faster warp speed, modern computer systems, better defensive capabilities
The Excel, Ambassador, Galaxy got replaced in alot of ways by these ships, Intrepid (Long Range scientific missions/First Contact Assignments). Sovereign (First Contact Assignments/Long Range Exploration/Fleet Support/First Responder)
This is likely how these vessels are used and some extrapolation done from the current game as well.
Nope Excel would have less than a chance. The Excel is more numerous than Ambassador
ACTD Page On the Ambassador Class Mission Objectives
Just figured to dig this out for the sake of this argument.
Size. Size and bulk (1, 2... and how about that Dominion Battleship? WHEW!!!). Simply put, you can cram alot more cool stuff in a larger warship than you would in a smaller one. Not to mention the newer warship was purpose built to use current technology.
The Excelsior was a clear, cutting edge technological wonder for its time. It was obvious in the movies when you compared the USS Excelsior to the older USS Enterprise / Constitution Refits that Starfleet got its act together for this new class. With the advent of TNG and the Galaxy, you can believe the Excelsior was that "bridge" into the later TNG era ships.
Then you have the Ambassador. Later introduced some time into TNG's run, and we know it to precede the Galaxy class, which itself was the pride of Starfleet when they began production. The Ambassador though came after the Excelsior, and would have reaped whatever new technological developments made at the time. It would be superior to what the Excelsior was capable of.
I would go onto say that the Ambassador may not have such a large, technological leap over the Excelsior. But there's no way in hell that the Excelsior, refitted or not, should be comparable to the Galaxy class, much less the epitome of Starfleet technology, the Sovereign class, and much less the newer, larger Cruisers / Heavy Cruisers introduced by Starfleet.
And Constellation Class ships. And Wambundus. And all sorts of others that are oddly absent from this hypothetical.
Constell was not that successful design only about 6 in total built. Never heard of the Wambundus. Oberth, Miranda, and Excel are the most produce classes in starfleet and note Ambassador was arounf for twenty years and they wouldn't be mass produced as fast as the other 3. so my 20-30 is a guess but a logical one.
Also I didn't exclude other classes just point out at that DW era what ships numbers for each class might be. other classes may have dozens made but the modualr desgin of the the big three saw them easily adpated and used. the Lakota was a sign of this top update the Excel one more time and fairly successful. Post DW however many of these ships will be gone and more First Contact ships will replaced them more and more. in STO the Excel is likely nearly done in it's service life.
According to Sternbach, there were 8. And it was successful enough as both a long range exploratory vessel and a defensive patrol vessel in its time. So successful in fact, that it got used again by Riker in a war game. Considering the long tenure of the Stargazer and the comparatively short tenure of the Enterprise-C, I wouldn't knock the Constellation class of ship. It bridges the gap between the Excelsior and the Ambassador, even if zillions of folks like to forget about it.
It's from the Encyclopedia. The one I remember most clearly is the USS Drake. Riker was offered it. Refused. Captain Rice took command of it. It was destroyed.
There's a whole host of other classes of ships though. Springfield, Korolev, Niagra, Apollo, Bradbury, Freedom, Merced, Renaissance, even the Cheyenne. Some of these were contemporary to the time period of the Ambassador. Along with the Constellation. And stayed in service on into the time of the Galaxy.