Ahem, so you expect the Klingons to do that after being continuously humiliated and betrayed on more that one ocassion in the build up of the Klingon-Federation war, by no other than their suposed ally?
I don't think you're seeing things from Klignon perspective. The Undine are a primary target, but it has gone well beyond Undine before the war was declared. In the situation, the Klingons would feel betrayed and backstabbed by their suposed ally, and that is something Klingons don't take lightly and don't forget.
Besides, we have proof of Federation Officers (our own chars) exposing Undine infiltrators on more than one ocassion and what did Starfleet do with the evidence? Absolutely nothing, which led to the same Undinle infiltrators opening the gate between the Jenolan and Solanae Dyson Spheres.
So let me ask you, if they don't trust and act on the proof displayed by their own Starfleet Officers - what makes you think they'd trust Klingon videos of killed Undine? It's not like they trusted the Klingons when they presented evidence of the Gorn infiltration the first time, was it?
And this right here is a clear evidence of you observing these things very subjectively and from a Federation POV.
Sorry but what you're saying would be such a strategic fail for the Empire, that if the Empire survived loresingers would compose songs of how big of a petaQ J'mpok really was.
What you're saying is have the Klingon Empire invade fluidic space with their entire fleet while they're at war with their arch enemy - the RSE and while Fek'ihr demons are showing up from nowhere and attacking in Klingon space.
Also while they are aware of a Undine infiltration in the Federation and they don't know how high up the chain it goes - essentially leaving a nice wide opening for the Federation, possibly influenced by the Undine themselves to organize an attack on the Empire.
Why do I feel the need to play Sarek to your Klingon Ambassador?
From the play on Fed side, Both the KDF and the Federation have some very nasty infestations of Undine. The Federation sweeps it under the rug. (T'nae) the Klingons seem to ignore it. Oddly I do not recall a single Klingon mission to expose Undine anywhere. So the thought that it is just an excuse seems quite justified. And while I find the honour of the Klingons to be less distasteful than some of the Federation missions. We can look back to history (IE the shows.) and see how bureaucracy on both sides can lead to Klingon humiliation. Look to Picard asking for the use of a cloaked ship. He is willing to share any intelligence gained with his allies but the bureaucrat wants to hear how things will make things better for him. DS9 the empire, under the influence of shape shifters, launches a war on Cardassia. The bureaucrats in the diplomatic corps toss out what seems like a standard 'Standing aside and shaking finger' censorship of the attack. Even though they should know it will go up the chancellor's. . . .
Anyway. I see the KDF and Star Fleet being able to get along. Can we leave the politicians out of it?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
General Worf: While in recovering from the Narada incident on Vulcan, was nearly murdered and replaced by his Vulcan Doctor. In fact, Worf himself admits to Jake that he should not trust him because he blacked out just before throwing the Undine in his forme into the incinerator. (We can take this as likely Worf not being an Undine but it's not clear one way or another, but still evidence of an Undine infiltration of civilian members of the Federation as early as 2387.)
As you noted, at this time Worf was a General in the KDF - not sure that I'd call him a "civilian member of the Federation." Your point is well-taken, though.
the USS Enterprise-E is destroyed by the Undine during an investigation to Starbase 236. Captain Data opts to resign from Starfleet upon returning to Earth. (STO Short Story: An Unexpected Honor)
I haven't read that short story - does it actually confirm the destruction of the Enterprise? All I've ever seen is conjecture based on the Starbase 236 mission being the ship's last known assignment.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
From the play on Fed side, Both the KDF and the Federation have some very nasty infestations of Undine. The Federation sweeps it under the rug. (T'nae) the Klingons seem to ignore it. Oddly I do not recall a single Klingon mission to expose Undine anywhere. So the thought that it is just an excuse seems quite justified. And while I find the honour of the Klingons to be less distasteful than some of the Federation missions. We can look back to history (IE the shows.) and see how bureaucracy on both sides can lead to Klingon humiliation. Look to Picard asking for the use of a cloaked ship. He is willing to share any intelligence gained with his allies but the bureaucrat wants to hear how things will make things better for him. DS9 the empire, under the influence of shape shifters, launches a war on Cardassia. The bureaucrats in the diplomatic corps toss out what seems like a standard 'Standing aside and shaking finger' censorship of the attack. Even though they should know it will go up the chancellor's. . . .
Anyway. I see the KDF and Star Fleet being able to get along. Can we leave the politicians out of it?
I'm not sure what you mean when you say that from the play on Fed side the KDF has nasty infestations of Undine and ignores them.
As to missions.....come on, please, I know you've been here long enough to have a basic understanding of the quality of Cryptic's storytelling via in-game missions and of their general treatment of the KDF faction as an afterthought. The KDF only got full leveling last year, there were not enough missions before that because the KDF was forgotten and those missions that were there were a mess, with the Cryptic's trademark ending of story arches - without conclusion.
You shouldn't be suprised that the KDF has no Undine exposing missions, because the KDF barely had any unique missions of their own, heck the KDF has only 2 missions revolving around the Federation-Klingon war. That doesn't mean the war is an excuse, that means that Crpytic can't handle a game with more than 1 faction because it's soooooo overwhelming for them :rolleyes: - that's the main and only reason for going on the 'peace' path in S9.
Besides, the things mentioned in the discussion here are mostly extrapolated from the in-game lore - "the path to 2409" chips and such - because it's also the game's canon and because if we rely on the missions only to tell the story we'll end up in a big mess one way or another.
Example: on the Fed side, in the KDF war arc - B'vat is the main protagonist and mastermind behind all that is going on. On the KDF side, if you don't read "The path to 2409" you'll have no idea who B'vat is or that such a person even exists.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say if we can leave politicians out of it, by I have a firm view that the politicians are the ones that can even slightly hope to glue together a Klingon-Federation peace treaty.
Without them, if left to the "commoners", I see no hope of KDF and Starfleet getting along - in fact I think they'd be at each-other's throats in no time. The essential difference in civilization, mindset, priorities, values and beliefs between the Klingon Empire and the Federation is too huge of a gap to say that if we leave politicans out of it, everyone would get along.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say that from the play on Fed side the KDF has nasty infestations of Undine and ignores them.
As to missions.....come on, please, I know you've been here long enough to have a basic understanding of the quality of Cryptic's storytelling via in-game missions and of their general treatment of the KDF faction as an afterthought. The KDF only got full leveling last year, there were not enough missions before that because the KDF was forgotten and those missions that were there were a mess, with the Cryptic's trademark ending of story arches - without conclusion.
You shouldn't be suprised that the KDF has no Undine exposing missions, because the KDF barely had any unique missions of their own, heck the KDF has only 2 missions revolving around the Federation-Klingon war. That doesn't mean the war is an excuse, that means that Crpytic can't handle a game with more than 1 faction because it's soooooo overwhelming for them :rolleyes: - that's the main and only reason for going on the 'peace' path in S9.
Besides, the things mentioned in the discussion here are mostly extrapolated from the in-game lore - "the path to 2409" chips and such - because it's also the game's canon and because if we rely on the missions only to tell the story we'll end up in a big mess one way or another.
Example: on the Fed side, in the KDF war arc - B'vat is the main protagonist and mastermind behind all that is going on. On the KDF side, if you don't read "The path to 2409" you'll have no idea who B'vat is or that such a person even exists.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say if we can leave politicians out of it, by I have a firm view that the politicians are the ones that can even slightly hope to glue together a Klingon-Federation peace treaty.
Without them, if left to the "commoners", I see no hope of KDF and Starfleet getting along - in fact I think they'd be at each-other's throats in no time. The essential difference in civilization, mindset, priorities, values and beliefs between the Klingon Empire and the Federation is too huge of a gap to say that if we leave politicans out of it, everyone would get along.
Yeah my train of thought derailed right after I started writing.
Let me see what I can clarify. First, is that when they cleaned up some of the intro missions Fed side they seemed to take note of the problems posted on these forums. So pointing out there is a lack of Undine or Borg on the KDF side may lead to them cleaning that up a little bit in the future. (No emoticon for crossed fingers.)
My point on politicians is that in two episodes. One TNG and one DS9 we see that the people that should be handling things at the home office so to speak are dropping the ball. Gowron's people were willing to brush off the Federation and a Captain that had aided their empire more than a few times. Because they had trope worthy politician attitudes.
In DS9 the people that should have know how to talk to klingons and gotten some form of answer. Could not do so and infact insulted the empire with their censure. Meanwhile a warrior commander manages to convince Gowron that a two front war is pointless.
Here in STO when a fed Captain helps destroy an Undine ship the klingon commander commends your bravery and hopes to see you fighting by their side again.
So to me the KDF and Star Fleet can put aside differences to fight common enemies. But the politicians seem to blunder with each other.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Actually no, I haven't palyed your mission yet so I wouldn't know that. I however intend to, because someone highly recomeded them on the CatPhone.
I know that we have no data why the Letheans (and Ferasans as well) are a part of the KDF, other than a lore piece from "the path to 2409" that said the Leteans seeked alliance with the KDF in 2408 (I think it was 2408, not 100% sure), following the example set by the Nausicaans before that.
But that wasn't what I was saying. We don't know how and why the Letheans are a part of the KDF. What we know is that they are - and what I know is that there is a lore piece in "the path to 2409" stating that Letheans exposed the Undine infiltrators sent after Ja'rod.
I
You weren't mistaken. Quite the memory you have there...
from Path to 2409: Volume 22, Chapter 3:
On Qo'noS, the Klingon High Council was rocked by the revelation that Councilor Konjah was an Undine.
What Starfleet Intelligence learned about the situation is this. After a night of revelry in the First City, Konjah was walking with two other Klingons back to his lodgings when he was attacked by Lethean mercenaries. The telepathic assault forced Konjah to lose his humanoid form, and he shifted into his true appearance.
The Undine masquerading as Konjah was killed, and his body taken to the High Council chambers. Chancellor J'mpok then stripped the House of Konjah of its titles and status, and its members were either killed or forced into hiding.
"It was a witch hunt," says Lor Toret, a Bajoran who owned a restaurant on Qo'noS before the Khitomer Accords were dissolved in 2399. "I still have a lot of friends in the capital, and they're telling me that Konjah's family was hunted down like they were all Undine.
The sad thing is that no one knows how long the Undine had been in Konjah's place or what happened to the original. Did they kill him, or is he stuck in some Undine prison?"
The open war is already over if you pay attention to the storyline, it's done by the time your character gets through the original PvE missions. I think that any of the fighting we are still seeing after that point is minor border skirmishes, the official war may be over, but they haven't re-established the Khitomar Accords yet, there's still plenty of room for those dailies right along side the new FEs and the STFs.
We already saw this happen during the second Federation-Klingon War on DS9.
You weren't mistaken. Quite the memory you have there...
from Path to 2409: Volume 22, Chapter 3:
On Qo'noS, the Klingon High Council was rocked by the revelation that Councilor Konjah was an Undine.
What Starfleet Intelligence learned about the situation is this. After a night of revelry in the First City, Konjah was walking with two other Klingons back to his lodgings when he was attacked by Lethean mercenaries. The telepathic assault forced Konjah to lose his humanoid form, and he shifted into his true appearance.
The Undine masquerading as Konjah was killed, and his body taken to the High Council chambers. Chancellor J'mpok then stripped the House of Konjah of its titles and status, and its members were either killed or forced into hiding.
"It was a witch hunt," says Lor Toret, a Bajoran who owned a restaurant on Qo'noS before the Khitomer Accords were dissolved in 2399. "I still have a lot of friends in the capital, and they're telling me that Konjah's family was hunted down like they were all Undine.
The sad thing is that no one knows how long the Undine had been in Konjah's place or what happened to the original. Did they kill him, or is he stuck in some Undine prison?"
Thank you so much for taking the time to find and post this.
I have no reason to BS people around, if I say I'm 100% sure about a thing - it really means I actually read it somewhere. I just wasn't in the mood to read through the lore to find the piece you found.
As you noted, at this time Worf was a General in the KDF - not sure that I'd call him a "civilian member of the Federation." Your point is well-taken, though.
I haven't read that short story - does it actually confirm the destruction of the Enterprise? All I've ever seen is conjecture based on the Starbase 236 mission being the ship's last known assignment.
The first one: more pointing out that a civilian Doctor of the Federation was replaced. The rest was pretty much full disclosure.
And yes, the short story does finally confirm it. In fact, Data's got depression over it. Basically Starfleet asked him to command the F first, but he declined on the grounds he'd been in that position for too long, feels strong remorse over the lost of the ship (even if the crew was saved), and a desire to build B4 a new body now that he's taken his.
As far as I have seen, seasons and stories run through the game. So by "ending" the war you are able to progress to the next chapter. This does not mean content becomes removed or invalid, but can simply advance.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Thank you so much for taking the time to find and post this.
I have no reason to BS people around, if I say I'm 100% sure about a thing - it really means I actually read it somewhere. I just wasn't in the mood to read through the lore to find the piece you found.
Cheers!
So the take away from this is that Letheans are awesome undine hunters, they totally need to do something with that in game.
Thirding that. 90% of my objections to J'mpok would go away if the Undine infiltration was actually frakking relevant to the KDF storyline so it didn't look like a pretext for war.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
It would also make a good story opportunity for the non Klingon races of the KDF if it was them that exposed the infiltration in the Klingon government and helped to remove them.
Thirding that. 90% of my objections to J'mpok would go away if the Undine infiltration was actually frakking relevant to the KDF storyline so it didn't look like a pretext for war.
It would also make a good story opportunity for the non Klingon races of the KDF if it was them that exposed the infiltration in the Klingon government and helped to remove them.
The Undine may have overcome this advantage the KDF had though. The new story missions on Tribble have a clear point where Dr. Cooper was replaced with an Undine and it was Pre-Sphere of Influence, where he worked alongside a Ferasan telepath named Nin'Yan.
The Undine may have overcome this advantage the KDF had though. The new story missions on Tribble have a clear point where Dr. Cooper was replaced with an Undine and it was Pre-Sphere of Influence, where he worked alongside a Ferasan telepath named Nin'Yan.
Hmmmm....I wonder to what extent the Ferasan telepathy goes. If we take the Ferasans as the canon Kzinti, what they're actually suposed to be but aren't due to liscencing issues - then the Kzinti were kinda' reluctant to use their telephatic abilities because it caused them severe exaustion and headaches upon engaging in telephatic activities, especially for the males of the species. (as much as I remember from TAS, it has been a while)
So that may indicate that the Ferasan telephatic efficency and sensitivity would not be on some very high plain, but rather basic, elementary one.
On the other hand, there is no mention in STO lore that Ferasans could sense Undine infiltrators, but Letheans are pointed out to be responsible for the Empire discovering the Undine plot in the first place. Given the little part that we've seen of them in DS9, one could come to the conclusion that the Letheans have highly developed telephatic abilities, so maybe that enables them to sense the Undine while the Ferasans couldn't.
Im going to have pull out the big guns I guess. *snags my copy of The Needs of the Many*
Let's see:
Hassan the Undying, partially rogue Orion crimelord. His first lieutenant was an Undine infiltrator who tried to murder Quark while smuggling Decalithium (read: Red Matter). Infiltration of the Ferengi Government (unconfirmed but highly likely based on trade agreements according to Quark).
General Worf: While in recovering from the Narada incident on Vulcan, was nearly murdered and replaced by his Vulcan Doctor. In fact, Worf himself admits to Jake that he should not trust him because he blacked out just before throwing the Undine in his forme into the incinerator. (We can take this as likely Worf not being an Undine but it's not clear one way or another, but still evidence of an Undine infiltration of civilian members of the Federation as early as 2387.)
The incident on Cestus III, where a member of the Gorn Baseball team (long story) became so drunk, his shapeshifting abilities failed him and he was exposed as an Undine in front of Ja'rod, B'vat, several members of the KDF, Gorn Hemegony, and the Federation. This was in fact, the last act of peace time before the KDF fully declared war on the Gorn.
Federation News Service, Lynnwood, WA. Oct 25th, 2399. A woman murders her neighbor believing the reclusive man to be an Undine. There is no evidence to suggest he was, but the woman defends herself with "Can you prove he wasn't?"
Aide to former President Bacco, Esperanza Piniero mentions a growing cult of people who are calling for the reforms that Admiral Layton tried to impose during his attempted Coup, citing Layton as a hero who saw this coming a mile away.
June 2408 - Starfleet Security reports the loss of a freighter carrying a cult called "The Children of the Fluidic Light" which disappears in the McAllister Nebula (where the Undine made their first return) with all hands. Starfleet security admits that their leader was probably an Undine as his name was literally an anagram for Undine.
Late 2408 - Admiral Chakotay, head of Starfleet Intelligence admits that Undine Infiltrators have penetrated all levels of Federation government and civilian leadership as well as Starfleet Command.
In addition, the USS Enterprise-E is destroyed by the Undine during an investigation to Starbase 236. Captain Data opts to resign from Starfleet upon returning to Earth. (STO Short Story: An Unexpected Honor)
These are just SOME of the examples of Undine infiltration. And those aren't even the ones we see in-game, some of the Path to 2409 and so on. Tell me, how do we do a precise targetting of these infiltrators? Even our own PCs have a hard time on occasion noticing them (in universe, Zelle and the Ambassador were pretty obvious). Starfleet Security can't route them, the MACOs have a hard time killing them. How do you propose a precision strike from a Klingon point of view? Attack Earth? Kinda a rock and a hard place Starsword.
Also engaging in a full scale war like this is completely within Klingon Cultural norms. They don't half-do a war.
And attacking supply convoys? Thats a real strategy.
Also look at some of the duty officer assignments: klingon officers do alot of things without authorization. You can't always blame J'mpok for the actions of many of his officers.
Well one way would be to employ the abilities of the telepathic races to hunt down the Undine, in I think its the path to 2409 it mentions two letheans using their telepathic abilities to expose and reveal an Undine on Qo'nos. Maybe they are more apt at it than say Vulcans as well who we have seen in game can be mind screwed by a Undine.
You would like to think that at bare minimum J'empok has Letheans who can do this in his honor guard to stop the Undine taking over the leaders of the great houses. Assuming that he is not a Undine himself I guess.
Hmmmm....I wonder to what extent the Ferasan telepathy goes. If we take the Ferasans as the canon Kzinti, what they're actually suposed to be but aren't due to liscencing issues - then the Kzinti were kinda' reluctant to use their telephatic abilities because it caused them severe exaustion and headaches upon engaging in telephatic activities, especially for the males of the species. (as much as I remember from TAS, it has been a while)
So that may indicate that the Ferasan telephatic efficency and sensitivity would not be on some very high plain, but rather basic, elementary one.
On the other hand, there is no mention in STO lore that Ferasans could sense Undine infiltrators, but Letheans are pointed out to be responsible for the Empire discovering the Undine plot in the first place. Given the little part that we've seen of them in DS9, one could come to the conclusion that the Letheans have highly developed telephatic abilities, so maybe that enables them to sense the Undine while the Ferasans couldn't.
Lethean telepathy is also more physically intrusive and taxing on their intended target than most other species, usually resulting in their death. So it could be that aspect which disrupts the Undines disguise.
Hmmmm....I wonder to what extent the Ferasan telepathy goes. If we take the Ferasans as the canon Kzinti, what they're actually suposed to be but aren't due to liscencing issues - then the Kzinti were kinda' reluctant to use their telephatic abilities because it caused them severe exaustion and headaches upon engaging in telephatic activities, especially for the males of the species. (as much as I remember from TAS, it has been a while)
So that may indicate that the Ferasan telephatic efficency and sensitivity would not be on some very high plain, but rather basic, elementary one.
On the other hand, there is no mention in STO lore that Ferasans could sense Undine infiltrators, but Letheans are pointed out to be responsible for the Empire discovering the Undine plot in the first place. Given the little part that we've seen of them in DS9, one could come to the conclusion that the Letheans have highly developed telephatic abilities, so maybe that enables them to sense the Undine while the Ferasans couldn't.
The Ferasans might be more in line with the Vulcans telepathy wise and the Letheans more like the Ocampa, Kes was the one that got the telepathic communications on Voyager despite there being at least a couple of Vulcans on board.
While we have no examples of Ferasans in the shows or movies we can make an educated guess.
Vulcans are telepathic but need to touch and perform a short ritual to link(meld) with another mind.
Betazoids are telepathic to the point that they can have casual conversations telepathically. A flighty and distracted Rioxanna Troi spots a pair of suicide bombers casually. And the changlings have their homeworld invaded because they can easily see through their disguises. But they can overwhelmed by powerful emotions. .
Letheans (As far as I recall only one onscreen sighting) Touch based psionic attack that had been lethal up until it was used on an augmented mind.
If we say that Letheans are to the level of Betazoids but more combat capable then they and Betazoids are good hunters for Undine and Changlings. Assuming a weaker telepathy from from Ferasan who seem more physical in nature would put them at the level of a Vulcan. We know Tuvok was fooled by an Undine and his native telepathy was overwhelmed by one. We also know from the ambassador that they refrain from mind melds. Probably as that level of telepathic contact would give them away.
So as a conclusion, Lethean guards for the chancellor and high council. A requirement of one Lethean and Betazoid for the 'Summit' And you can have Undine hunting squads. Now they just need telepathy blockers so non-telepaths can resist Undine assaults.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
This alliance is clearly the precursor to that more perfect unions. We start as foes and are brought together by outside forces that wish harm on all of us. We're stronger together than each of us are apart.
This pitch has a striking similarity to the Dominion War scenario, in which Starfleet resorted to forging evidence and covering up for an assassin to form an 'alliance'. What exactly is a 'more perfect union'? If the factions found out the truth, it would bring them closer against the UFP instead, and such things have a way of getting out.
There is no such 'destiny' anywhere in the ST canon. S9 only references "a new accord", which sounds like a new treaty.
This pitch has a striking similarity to the Dominion War scenario, in which Starfleet resorted to forging evidence and covering up for an assassin to form an 'alliance'. What exactly is a 'more perfect union'? If the factions found out the truth, it would bring them closer against the UFP instead, and such things have a way of getting out.
There is a lot more solid foundation in the stories already told by the ST canon for a different kind of future than that.
*Klingon High Council and Romulan Senate(s) applaud*
Its hardly a perfect Union, though it is change. I'll give you that.
Its a begrudging alliance to combat the bigger foe.
The Klingon citizenry is not going start singing, "It's a small federation after all" and dance in abundant joy while drinking the fed koolaid.
Comments
Why do I feel the need to play Sarek to your Klingon Ambassador?
From the play on Fed side, Both the KDF and the Federation have some very nasty infestations of Undine. The Federation sweeps it under the rug. (T'nae) the Klingons seem to ignore it. Oddly I do not recall a single Klingon mission to expose Undine anywhere. So the thought that it is just an excuse seems quite justified. And while I find the honour of the Klingons to be less distasteful than some of the Federation missions. We can look back to history (IE the shows.) and see how bureaucracy on both sides can lead to Klingon humiliation. Look to Picard asking for the use of a cloaked ship. He is willing to share any intelligence gained with his allies but the bureaucrat wants to hear how things will make things better for him. DS9 the empire, under the influence of shape shifters, launches a war on Cardassia. The bureaucrats in the diplomatic corps toss out what seems like a standard 'Standing aside and shaking finger' censorship of the attack. Even though they should know it will go up the chancellor's. . . .
Anyway. I see the KDF and Star Fleet being able to get along. Can we leave the politicians out of it?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
As you noted, at this time Worf was a General in the KDF - not sure that I'd call him a "civilian member of the Federation." Your point is well-taken, though.
I haven't read that short story - does it actually confirm the destruction of the Enterprise? All I've ever seen is conjecture based on the Starbase 236 mission being the ship's last known assignment.
I have no idea, but I guess you should know that.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say that from the play on Fed side the KDF has nasty infestations of Undine and ignores them.
As to missions.....come on, please, I know you've been here long enough to have a basic understanding of the quality of Cryptic's storytelling via in-game missions and of their general treatment of the KDF faction as an afterthought. The KDF only got full leveling last year, there were not enough missions before that because the KDF was forgotten and those missions that were there were a mess, with the Cryptic's trademark ending of story arches - without conclusion.
You shouldn't be suprised that the KDF has no Undine exposing missions, because the KDF barely had any unique missions of their own, heck the KDF has only 2 missions revolving around the Federation-Klingon war. That doesn't mean the war is an excuse, that means that Crpytic can't handle a game with more than 1 faction because it's soooooo overwhelming for them :rolleyes: - that's the main and only reason for going on the 'peace' path in S9.
Besides, the things mentioned in the discussion here are mostly extrapolated from the in-game lore - "the path to 2409" chips and such - because it's also the game's canon and because if we rely on the missions only to tell the story we'll end up in a big mess one way or another.
Example: on the Fed side, in the KDF war arc - B'vat is the main protagonist and mastermind behind all that is going on. On the KDF side, if you don't read "The path to 2409" you'll have no idea who B'vat is or that such a person even exists.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say if we can leave politicians out of it, by I have a firm view that the politicians are the ones that can even slightly hope to glue together a Klingon-Federation peace treaty.
Without them, if left to the "commoners", I see no hope of KDF and Starfleet getting along - in fact I think they'd be at each-other's throats in no time. The essential difference in civilization, mindset, priorities, values and beliefs between the Klingon Empire and the Federation is too huge of a gap to say that if we leave politicans out of it, everyone would get along.
Yeah my train of thought derailed right after I started writing.
Let me see what I can clarify. First, is that when they cleaned up some of the intro missions Fed side they seemed to take note of the problems posted on these forums. So pointing out there is a lack of Undine or Borg on the KDF side may lead to them cleaning that up a little bit in the future. (No emoticon for crossed fingers.)
My point on politicians is that in two episodes. One TNG and one DS9 we see that the people that should be handling things at the home office so to speak are dropping the ball. Gowron's people were willing to brush off the Federation and a Captain that had aided their empire more than a few times. Because they had trope worthy politician attitudes.
In DS9 the people that should have know how to talk to klingons and gotten some form of answer. Could not do so and infact insulted the empire with their censure. Meanwhile a warrior commander manages to convince Gowron that a two front war is pointless.
Here in STO when a fed Captain helps destroy an Undine ship the klingon commander commends your bravery and hopes to see you fighting by their side again.
So to me the KDF and Star Fleet can put aside differences to fight common enemies. But the politicians seem to blunder with each other.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Seriuosly,CBS and a brewer are going to market warnog. Complete with the Heart, batleths and look of the Empire.
No idea why I shared this.....
R.I.P
Link?
If this is for real I may have to get some when it comes out.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Courtesy link. It's basically a dunkelweizen.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
You weren't mistaken. Quite the memory you have there...
from Path to 2409: Volume 22, Chapter 3:
On Qo'noS, the Klingon High Council was rocked by the revelation that Councilor Konjah was an Undine.
What Starfleet Intelligence learned about the situation is this. After a night of revelry in the First City, Konjah was walking with two other Klingons back to his lodgings when he was attacked by Lethean mercenaries. The telepathic assault forced Konjah to lose his humanoid form, and he shifted into his true appearance.
The Undine masquerading as Konjah was killed, and his body taken to the High Council chambers. Chancellor J'mpok then stripped the House of Konjah of its titles and status, and its members were either killed or forced into hiding.
"It was a witch hunt," says Lor Toret, a Bajoran who owned a restaurant on Qo'noS before the Khitomer Accords were dissolved in 2399. "I still have a lot of friends in the capital, and they're telling me that Konjah's family was hunted down like they were all Undine.
The sad thing is that no one knows how long the Undine had been in Konjah's place or what happened to the original. Did they kill him, or is he stuck in some Undine prison?"
We already saw this happen during the second Federation-Klingon War on DS9.
Thank you so much for taking the time to find and post this.
I have no reason to BS people around, if I say I'm 100% sure about a thing - it really means I actually read it somewhere. I just wasn't in the mood to read through the lore to find the piece you found.
Cheers!
The first one: more pointing out that a civilian Doctor of the Federation was replaced. The rest was pretty much full disclosure.
And yes, the short story does finally confirm it. In fact, Data's got depression over it. Basically Starfleet asked him to command the F first, but he declined on the grounds he'd been in that position for too long, feels strong remorse over the lost of the ship (even if the crew was saved), and a desire to build B4 a new body now that he's taken his.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
Very interesting. I might have to track down the magazine issues with the stories.
So the take away from this is that Letheans are awesome undine hunters, they totally need to do something with that in game.
Agreed. Undine hunting missions NAOW!!
Thirding that. 90% of my objections to J'mpok would go away if the Undine infiltration was actually frakking relevant to the KDF storyline so it didn't look like a pretext for war.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The Undine may have overcome this advantage the KDF had though. The new story missions on Tribble have a clear point where Dr. Cooper was replaced with an Undine and it was Pre-Sphere of Influence, where he worked alongside a Ferasan telepath named Nin'Yan.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
Hmmmm....I wonder to what extent the Ferasan telepathy goes. If we take the Ferasans as the canon Kzinti, what they're actually suposed to be but aren't due to liscencing issues - then the Kzinti were kinda' reluctant to use their telephatic abilities because it caused them severe exaustion and headaches upon engaging in telephatic activities, especially for the males of the species. (as much as I remember from TAS, it has been a while)
So that may indicate that the Ferasan telephatic efficency and sensitivity would not be on some very high plain, but rather basic, elementary one.
On the other hand, there is no mention in STO lore that Ferasans could sense Undine infiltrators, but Letheans are pointed out to be responsible for the Empire discovering the Undine plot in the first place. Given the little part that we've seen of them in DS9, one could come to the conclusion that the Letheans have highly developed telephatic abilities, so maybe that enables them to sense the Undine while the Ferasans couldn't.
Well one way would be to employ the abilities of the telepathic races to hunt down the Undine, in I think its the path to 2409 it mentions two letheans using their telepathic abilities to expose and reveal an Undine on Qo'nos. Maybe they are more apt at it than say Vulcans as well who we have seen in game can be mind screwed by a Undine.
You would like to think that at bare minimum J'empok has Letheans who can do this in his honor guard to stop the Undine taking over the leaders of the great houses. Assuming that he is not a Undine himself I guess.
Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
Lethean telepathy is also more physically intrusive and taxing on their intended target than most other species, usually resulting in their death. So it could be that aspect which disrupts the Undines disguise.
Commanding Officer: Captain Pyotr Ramonovich Amosov
Dedication Plaque: "Nil Intentatum Reliquit"
The Ferasans might be more in line with the Vulcans telepathy wise and the Letheans more like the Ocampa, Kes was the one that got the telepathic communications on Voyager despite there being at least a couple of Vulcans on board.
Vulcans are telepathic but need to touch and perform a short ritual to link(meld) with another mind.
Betazoids are telepathic to the point that they can have casual conversations telepathically. A flighty and distracted Rioxanna Troi spots a pair of suicide bombers casually. And the changlings have their homeworld invaded because they can easily see through their disguises. But they can overwhelmed by powerful emotions. .
Letheans (As far as I recall only one onscreen sighting) Touch based psionic attack that had been lethal up until it was used on an augmented mind.
If we say that Letheans are to the level of Betazoids but more combat capable then they and Betazoids are good hunters for Undine and Changlings. Assuming a weaker telepathy from from Ferasan who seem more physical in nature would put them at the level of a Vulcan. We know Tuvok was fooled by an Undine and his native telepathy was overwhelmed by one. We also know from the ambassador that they refrain from mind melds. Probably as that level of telepathic contact would give them away.
So as a conclusion, Lethean guards for the chancellor and high council. A requirement of one Lethean and Betazoid for the 'Summit' And you can have Undine hunting squads. Now they just need telepathy blockers so non-telepaths can resist Undine assaults.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
There is no such 'destiny' anywhere in the ST canon. S9 only references "a new accord", which sounds like a new treaty.
This pitch has a striking similarity to the Dominion War scenario, in which Starfleet resorted to forging evidence and covering up for an assassin to form an 'alliance'. What exactly is a 'more perfect union'? If the factions found out the truth, it would bring them closer against the UFP instead, and such things have a way of getting out.
There is a lot more solid foundation in the stories already told by the ST canon for a different kind of future.
*Klingon High Council and Romulan Senate(s) applaud*
Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
*Radnom bekks raise bat'leths and mugs of bloodwine* *Random uhlans raise raptor swords and bottles of Romulan ale*
Its a begrudging alliance to combat the bigger foe.
The Klingon citizenry is not going start singing, "It's a small federation after all" and dance in abundant joy while drinking the fed koolaid.
R.I.P