I saw that episode, too. Worf doesn't give himself enough credit.
He does. But he's also aware that he is not the right person for the job. And I agree, Worf as much as we all came to like him, is not suitable to lead the Klingon Empire.
Based on those "little conversations" that happen at the end of both "Sphere of Influence" and "Step Between Stars", this is not exactly a friendly relationship.
I agree - they may end the war (and I hope they do), but that doesn't necessarily guarantee peace. There are outcomes which could end formal hostilies, allow for joint operations, and still allow for the re-establishment of the Neutral Zone and the occasional border skirmish.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Worf isn't going to get the job. One, Cryptic has to pay for him again (which was expensive), Two, Michael Dorn is trying to get his own Worf Trek series off the ground and wasn't thrilled with his character's development in STO. Three, Worf really isn't going to last as Chancellor for long, from the Klingon perspective he's overly rigid to his sense of honor, quick to diplomacy over honorable combat and once worked for the Federation: He'd be assasinated by the end of the week.
Also J'mpok really isn't the monster everyone thinks he is. I'm more inclined to believe Torg was the Undine infiltrator. J'mpok has been proven right sooo many times. Yes, there were Undine among the Gorn Leadership, but not their King. Yes, there are Undine among the Federation (and even the Feds, backstory brings up Chakotay in particular, have realized far too late that he was right on that point) and that the Undine are so aggressive against their peoples a war really was necessary.
There is no evidence pointing to J'mpok as an Undine or anything less than a reasonable authority figure. Yes, he killed Martok. But that's par for the course for Klingon Politics. And while the House of Martok might want vengence, he did allow them to present their evidence of treachery by the House of Torg, which is the honorable thing to do. Gowron and K'mpec sure wouldn't have allowed that for their own political reasons.
And on a last note, it doesn't make sense to have J'mpok, D'tan or Quinn be Undine. The fact that Sulu was replaced in Terradome makes far more sense. The big name guy is going to be under constant scrutiny. Replace their Number One, which Sulu was. That guy can at least manipulate the data under the radar and trick the big goods into betraying their own people.
Worf isn't going to get the job. One, Cryptic has to pay for him again (which was expensive), Two, Michael Dorn is trying to get his own Worf Trek series off the ground and wasn't thrilled with his character's development in STO. Three, Worf really isn't going to last as Chancellor for long, from the Klingon perspective he's overly rigid to his sense of honor, quick to diplomacy over honorable combat and once worked for the Federation: He'd be assasinated by the end of the week.
One is a decent reason for Cryptic not to do it but not a story reason for it not to happen.
Two, Michael Dorn said that the journalist who quoted him as working on a "Captain Worf" series took him way the heck out of context and that "Captain Worf" was something he'd like to do, not something he was actually doing.
Three, I have the impression from STO's version of Worf that he's mellowed a bit in the 30-odd years since DS9, although I could be imagining things. He doesn't seem as rigid as he was before, he's got a lot of respect still, he's got the combat skills to fend off challengers, and his ties to the Federation could actually help him mend fences once this stupid war ends.
And on a last note, it doesn't make sense to have J'mpok, D'tan or Quinn be Undine. The fact that Sulu was replaced in Terradome makes far more sense. The big name guy is going to be under constant scrutiny. Replace their Number One, which Sulu was. That guy can at least manipulate the data under the radar and trick the big goods into betraying their own people.
Yeah, just like their counterintel efforts against the Dominion worked perfectly, immediately unmasking the changeling that replaced Martok before it was able to do any damage. Oh, wait.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Well we could be barking up the wrong tree completely in looking for who is pulling the strings of J'mpok and the council, the whole Orion angle has never been mentioned outside of the backstory.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Well we could be barking up the wrong tree completely in looking for who is pulling the strings of J'mpok and the council, the whole Orion angle has never been mentioned outside of the backstory.
Ah yes, the 1500 Orion slaves presented to the Great Houses after the Treaty of Ter'jas Mor. Yet another story hook Cryptic made and then didn't do anything with.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Worf isn't going to get the job. One, Cryptic has to pay for him again (which was expensive), Two, Michael Dorn is trying to get his own Worf Trek series off the ground and wasn't thrilled with his character's development in STO. Three, Worf really isn't going to last as Chancellor for long, from the Klingon perspective he's overly rigid to his sense of honor, quick to diplomacy over honorable combat and once worked for the Federation: He'd be assasinated by the end of the week.
Also J'mpok really isn't the monster everyone thinks he is. I'm more inclined to believe Torg was the Undine infiltrator. J'mpok has been proven right sooo many times. Yes, there were Undine among the Gorn Leadership, but not their King. Yes, there are Undine among the Federation (and even the Feds, backstory brings up Chakotay in particular, have realized far too late that he was right on that point) and that the Undine are so aggressive against their peoples a war really was necessary.
There is no evidence pointing to J'mpok as an Undine or anything less than a reasonable authority figure. Yes, he killed Martok. But that's par for the course for Klingon Politics. And while the House of Martok might want vengence, he did allow them to present their evidence of treachery by the House of Torg, which is the honorable thing to do. Gowron and K'mpec sure wouldn't have allowed that for their own political reasons.
And on a last note, it doesn't make sense to have J'mpok, D'tan or Quinn be Undine. The fact that Sulu was replaced in Terradome makes far more sense. The big name guy is going to be under constant scrutiny. Replace their Number One, which Sulu was. That guy can at least manipulate the data under the radar and trick the big goods into betraying their own people.
Yeah, just like their counterintel efforts against the Dominion worked perfectly, immediately unmasking the changeling that replaced Martok before it was able to do any damage. Oh, wait.
I hope you realize that you just confirmed what sirboulevard has been saying - they didn't replace Gowron, they replaced Martok who was his 1-st General at the time.
As to the DS9 comparison - in DS9 the Klingon Empire didn't have Letheans, in STO they're here. They were the ones the blew the Undine infiltrators' cover and helped Jarod present the evidence to J'mpok in the first place. Don't you think those same Letheans would sound all kinds of alarms if they realized J'mpok is an Undine as well?
As to the DS9 comparison - in DS9 the Klingon Empire didn't have Letheans, in STO they're here. They were the ones the blew the Undine infiltrators' cover and helped Jarod present the evidence to J'mpok in the first place.
Citation, please? All I remember from The Path to 2409 is that Ja'rod killed two of them when they tried to replace him and tortured the third into giving up the plot, and then Ja'rod randomly turns up on Qo'noS years later with news that the Gorn Hegemony is full of tripods.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Citation, please? All I remember from The Path to 2409 is that Ja'rod killed two of them when they tried to replace him and tortured the third into giving up the plot, and then Ja'rod randomly turns up on Qo'noS years later with news that the Gorn Hegemony is full of tripods.
Oh, I'm really sorry but I just can't bother myself looking for the right piece of "The path to 2409" on the net at the moment.
However, I'm 100% sure that this was said in one of those lore pieces and I'm 100% sure that it was the Letheans who uncovered the Undine infiltrators due to their telepathic abilities that enabled them to sense that there are Undine underneath the "cover". Maybe someone that knows the exact piece of lore that says this can help.
And as far as the lore goes - Ja'rod brings the situation to J'mpok and afterwards takes his ship and dissapears from the radar for a while, finally returning after some time to inform of the Gorn situation. This part is also in one of those "The path to 2409" pieces of lore.
My assumption is that they extracted intel from the captured Undine and J'mpok sent Ja'rod on a undercover reconnaissance mission in Gorn space (which would explain the dissapearance of his ship and "maintaining radio silence" until he returned to Qo'noS with the proof). This part is not mentioned in the lore as far as I know, but it's the most logical deduction I came up with.
I'd bet they just remove the Pi canis sorties because they are so glitched and bugged and with the power changes since this was originally put in even a crappy geared character can accidentally destroy any freighter TRIBBLE up their optional.
Most likely it will just be removed or it will be replaced with some other enemy like tal shiar or elachi being the area it borders. Most likely if its replaced at all it'll have some tie to the elachi and made into a cross faction lower dilithium horde.
Oh, I'm really sorry but I just can't bother myself looking for the right piece of "The path to 2409" on the net at the moment.
Then as far as I'm concerned you're talking out of your butt.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
To die is easy. To live each day with honor and integrity, that is a challenge worthy of a true warrior.
Whatever. See if I care what you think or don't think.
You know darn well I meant "links or it didn't happen".
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You know darn well I meant "links or it didn't happen".
Like I said, I'm not about to read through who knows how many lore pieces on the STO Wiki in order to locate the one I'm looking for. I'd rather play the mind numbing miniQ present game and that says a lot.
If I happen to stumble upon the part while doing the lore daily on my chars, I'll post the link.
The deeper issue here isn't actually the Undine at all. That's superficial and ephemeral. The real problem is that the Federation is dedicated to the republican values of equality, liberty, and property, whereas the Klingon Empire is a feudalistic society where the strong dominate the weak completely, and the concepts of federalism and rights aren't even in their vocabulary. Realistically, the only thing the Federation and the Klingon Empire can ever have in common is a border. Grow up.
Only a radical Klingon revolution that ends with the rolling be-ridged heads of all the nobles could ever create common ground between them and us, but even then it would take generations of such change before they were ready to join the free galaxy.
The deeper issue here isn't actually the Undine at all. That's superficial and ephemeral. The real problem is that the Federation is dedicated to the republican values of equality, liberty, and property, whereas the Klingon Empire is a feudalistic society where the strong dominate the weak completely, and the concepts of federalism and rights aren't even in their vocabulary. Realistically, the only thing the Federation and the Klingon Empire can ever have in common is a border. Grow up.
Only a radical Klingon revolution that ends with the rolling be-ridged heads of all the nobles could ever create common ground between them and us, but even then it would take generations of such change before they were ready to join the free galaxy.
Pretty much what you have stated is the main reason why the undine used the methods they have. Its a common theme that very few Klingon's share same point of view with the federation or themselves. It is only when they all have a common enemy that they work together to defeat it. The Undine basically just used it to their advantage so they wouldn't come together to strengthen their alliances.
The only way I could potentially see this changing is if for some reason new leadership took over the KDF and in league with the federation re-instituted their different circles of classes aka science, engineering, law, etc. If they were to do that I would imagine they would like science it would be where they mostly worked with the daystom institute or some other group that focused in that area.
Usually before any productive change occurs in the Klingon Empire which is discussed in canon usually it involves all or most of the leadership being executed some fashion and then those without strong political motives taking charge to expand the empire. A good example is the discussion between Dax and Sirella about the Dynasty that was wiped out dismissing her claims of noble blood lol. How would you even know outsider? I was there.
Ah yes, the 1500 Orion slaves presented to the Great Houses after the Treaty of Ter'jas Mor. Yet another story hook Cryptic made and then didn't do anything with.
Why would they need to? You merely need to look at any KDF zone to see what has already happened. The players have already taken over that story hook. We all know how "Orion Slave Girls" work, and we know what the KDF now looks like. Figure it out for yourself.
Why would they need to? You merely need to look at any KDF zone to see what has already happened. The players have already taken over that story hook. We all know how "Orion Slave Girls" work, and we know what the KDF now looks like. Figure it out for yourself.
Yep in the high ranks of KDF Generals but no support from the syndicate or the KDF to supply them with more orion vessels to use in combat such a great Cryptic story line and also makes it where Cryptic doesn't need to expand the Orion ship line rofl.
I hope you realize that you just confirmed what sirboulevard has been saying - they didn't replace Gowron, they replaced Martok who was his 1-st General at the time.
As to the DS9 comparison - in DS9 the Klingon Empire didn't have Letheans, in STO they're here. They were the ones the blew the Undine infiltrators' cover and helped Jarod present the evidence to J'mpok in the first place. Don't you think those same Letheans would sound all kinds of alarms if they realized J'mpok is an Undine as well?
shpoks, the Lethean thing is from my mission Honor of the Empire. We have exactly ZERO data saying why the Letheans are part of the KDF. I still think the fact the Empire started recruiting the telepathic Letheans and Ferasans makes the most sense if they're anti-Undine guards (especially with the Ferasans mostly serving in the Klingon Honor Guard based on NPCs).
@Starsword: your argument is based mostly on circumstantial evidence at best. There is absolutely ZERO EVIDENCE pointing towards J'mpok being a bad guy. If he was a bad guy, Cryptic would not have written him to expose Torg. Period. An Undine would have viewed Torg as an excellent patsy. Even Ja'rod, who's his adopted son takes Torg's betrayal badly (source: incidental dialogue on Drozana Station) and Ja'rod is kinda J'mpok's golden child (He offered Ja'rod a seat on the high council but declined stating he would fight more battles earn his right on that council [Path to 2409 & The Needs of the Many novel]). Realistically, the two of them (Ja'rod and J'mpok) are Heroes with bad publicity. Ja'rod is the son of Lursa, naturally anyone familiar with them wouldn't trust him and he was B'Vat's attache (source: STO novel - The Needs of the Many), but he's honestly getting all the TRIBBLE his mentors did stuck on him with the most villianous thing he's done being... killing tribbles.
And J'mpok? While he has gone to war with the Federation, it is over a legitimate issue. The Federation looked at this evidence and went "La la la la! Not listening!" We've seen few indications of KDF infiltration (I can think of two and both of them were just bog standard captains, not even politically powerful ones) and personally MET at least three High-level max security clearance Undine infiltrators in the Federation. Ambassador Emotional-Vulcan, Admiral Zelle and Dr. Eric Cooper. J'mpok may not be popular, but you have to admit: he's been right. The Federation is deeply infiltrated and its not like the Undine are subtle about it! They'll drop disguises and go "tee hee hee, I'm undine!" in front of them.
And as shpoks pointed out, all you did was validate that it makes more sense not to take the leaderships' form and replace them. They make great smokescreens for what your doing. As pointed out: thats what the Founders did, thats what the Undine seem to be doing (if even less discretely) and its the most realistic option.
As far as the Orion plothread goes... yeah probably forgotten about. Then again, we met Hassan last year and I never thought that would happen. I'll hope it goes somewhere, but remain cautiously optimistic knowing the dev's present attentions.
shpoks, the Lethean thing is from my mission Honor of the Empire. We have exactly ZERO data saying why the Letheans are part of the KDF. I still think the fact the Empire started recruiting the telepathic Letheans and Ferasans makes the most sense if they're anti-Undine guards (especially with the Ferasans mostly serving in the Klingon Honor Guard based on NPCs).
According to the flavor text from the character creator both the Letheans and Nausicaans are in it because they're being paid. They're mercs who signed on with the KDF for a steady paycheck.
@Starsword: your argument is based mostly on circumstantial evidence at best.
Actually, my argument is mostly based on I don't like the guy and I want to see Worf chop his head off.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Actually, my argument is mostly based on I don't like the guy and I want to see Worf chop his head off.
Which is an emotional response. I didn't like J'mpok at first, but as the story has grown, I've built a grudging respect for him. In many ways, J'mpok and Martok are pretty similar. Both are fairly even handed in their dealing (for klingons), but still willing to fight it out over what they feel is important. Both have respect for their enemies (re-read the information on how the Gorn got a seat on the High Council). And both do value Klingon Honor. Both are also very liberal Klingons that are pretty open to non-Klingon races to a degree.
When I look at J'mpok nowadays, I see Cryptic making a Martok clone so they don't have to deal with rights and lawyers and paying for Hertzler's voice.
Am I mad that he killed Martok? Yeah. I am. But then I remember Alexander's words. "We do nothing but blind ourselves to greater threats when we kill each other over honor and glory."
Worf v. Martok may be the single most request duel of the game, but I fear it would be the end of the Empire. (Plus J'mpok is slowly changing the Empire, it feels more like the Federation with more authorized killin' now and I find that interesting).
And J'mpok? While he has gone to war with the Federation, it is over a legitimate issue. The Federation looked at this evidence and went "La la la la! Not listening!" We've seen few indications of KDF infiltration (I can think of two and both of them were just bog standard captains, not even politically powerful ones) and personally MET at least three High-level max security clearance Undine infiltrators in the Federation. Ambassador Emotional-Vulcan, Admiral Zelle and Dr. Eric Cooper. J'mpok may not be popular, but you have to admit: he's been right. The Federation is deeply infiltrated and its not like the Undine are subtle about it! They'll drop disguises and go "tee hee hee, I'm undine!" in front of them.
Seriously, I wouldn't have a problem with it except that the Klinks aren't actually targeting the Undine. If they were going after the infiltrators specifically and plastering video of the kills and bodies all over whatever Internet equivalent Star Trek has, thereby forcing the Federation to confront the problem or lose public support, I wouldn't even have a problem if they assassinated President Okeg. As long as he turned out to be an Undine afterwards.
Instead, J'mpok and his cadre are just using the Undine as a convenient excuse to be their usual bloodthirsty drunken TRIBBLE$hole selves. The war actually started because J'mpok decided to go and do a land grab in the Hromi Cluster and attacked Federation colonies, not because the Feds are heavily infiltrated. That's the reason for my not liking him.
If he really wants to fight the Undine he needs to actually fight the Undine. The whole point of the infiltration is that they don't have the resources to take on the Alpha Quadrant in a stand-up battle. So instead of TRIBBLE around hitting random colonies and trade ships like he's been doing for the past four years, he should be doing something intelligent like taking the fight to their home territory (there's a nice doorway over on the other side of Gamma Orionis he could use) and putting them on the defensive.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Another point: We have seen the advanced civilization and cultural sophistication of the old nobles leading up to the era of the Praxis catastrophy. It is because Klingons existed (and still exist) in a rigid caste system that they legally prevented the proliferation of such excellence into a middle class. Thus, nothing could catch their fall, so to speak, when Praxis exploded. That culture of great moderation and education was essentially drowned out by the subsequent rise of the barbaric lower class hordes in the post-Praxis era. The snarling, irrational, infighting Klingons we see now in the 25th century are not the Klingon nobles of the mid-to-late 23rd century, known for their great rhetorical wit, and whose ancient orderly system included recourse to courts of law, wide education in galactic humanities (Shakespeare in Klingon!), enlightened political theory, military tactics more mature than that of a grunting bloodwine sponge, cutting-edge technology, etc. The Klingon Empire of today is a post-apocalyptic remnant, run by the cultural equivalent of rednecks -- the only survivors of the disastrous over-concentration of wealth and rampant militarism of the 23rd century. Clearly, the Klingon Empire's worst enemy is the Klingon Empire. It simply lacks robustness, like all feudal systems.
There is absolutely no [canon] evidence that the high Klingon culture of the 23rd century survived in any form into the 24th century and certainly not the 25th century. Like the fall of Rome on Earth, the transition from classical civilization to the complete saturation of barbarism was swift and evidently lasting. The "Klingon Empire" at present is but a snapshot of an alien dark age, hardly worthy of the same name, for it is emphatically no longer the same entity as, say, Chancellor Gorkon's government, at all. Bottom line: in retrospect, Ambassador Spock's plan failed miserably because the Federation did nothing to help the post-Praxis Klingons implement the economic changes necessary to build a widely educated and politically egalitarian society: to wit, widely distributing wealth, opening schools and founts of propaganda for the proliferation of republican values.
I think Jm'pok gets replaced during the KDF storyline. At the beginning of the game he's all, "Let's hunt down the Undine where ever they are!", but by the end of the story missions he's saying, "Hey guys, how about we ally with these Undine chaps against the Federation? That'll work, right?"
Bit of a 180 policy shift for someone who isn't an Undine, is all I'm saying.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This character is why I don't play my Romulan any more. Tovan Khev is NOT my BFF! Get him off my bridge!
Seriously, I wouldn't have a problem with it except that the Klinks aren't actually targeting the Undine. If they were going after the infiltrators specifically and plastering video of the kills and bodies all over whatever Internet equivalent Star Trek has, thereby forcing the Federation to confront the problem or lose public support, I wouldn't even have a problem if they assassinated President Okeg. As long as he turned out to be an Undine afterwards.
Instead, J'mpok and his cadre are just using the Undine as a convenient excuse to be their usual bloodthirsty drunken TRIBBLE$hole selves. The war actually started because J'mpok decided to go and do a land grab in the Hromi Cluster and attacked Federation colonies, not because the Feds are heavily infiltrated. That's the reason for my not liking him.
If he really wants to fight the Undine he needs to actually fight the Undine. The whole point of the infiltration is that they don't have the resources to take on the Alpha Quadrant in a stand-up battle. So instead of TRIBBLE around hitting random colonies and trade ships like he's been doing for the past four years, he should be doing something intelligent like taking the fight to their home territory (there's a nice doorway over on the other side of Gamma Orionis he could use) and putting them on the defensive.
Im going to have pull out the big guns I guess. *snags my copy of The Needs of the Many*
Let's see:
Hassan the Undying, partially rogue Orion crimelord. His first lieutenant was an Undine infiltrator who tried to murder Quark while smuggling Decalithium (read: Red Matter). Infiltration of the Ferengi Government (unconfirmed but highly likely based on trade agreements according to Quark).
General Worf: While in recovering from the Narada incident on Vulcan, was nearly murdered and replaced by his Vulcan Doctor. In fact, Worf himself admits to Jake that he should not trust him because he blacked out just before throwing the Undine in his forme into the incinerator. (We can take this as likely Worf not being an Undine but it's not clear one way or another, but still evidence of an Undine infiltration of civilian members of the Federation as early as 2387.)
The incident on Cestus III, where a member of the Gorn Baseball team (long story) became so drunk, his shapeshifting abilities failed him and he was exposed as an Undine in front of Ja'rod, B'vat, several members of the KDF, Gorn Hemegony, and the Federation. This was in fact, the last act of peace time before the KDF fully declared war on the Gorn.
Federation News Service, Lynnwood, WA. Oct 25th, 2399. A woman murders her neighbor believing the reclusive man to be an Undine. There is no evidence to suggest he was, but the woman defends herself with "Can you prove he wasn't?"
Aide to former President Bacco, Esperanza Piniero mentions a growing cult of people who are calling for the reforms that Admiral Layton tried to impose during his attempted Coup, citing Layton as a hero who saw this coming a mile away.
June 2408 - Starfleet Security reports the loss of a freighter carrying a cult called "The Children of the Fluidic Light" which disappears in the McAllister Nebula (where the Undine made their first return) with all hands. Starfleet security admits that their leader was probably an Undine as his name was literally an anagram for Undine.
Late 2408 - Admiral Chakotay, head of Starfleet Intelligence admits that Undine Infiltrators have penetrated all levels of Federation government and civilian leadership as well as Starfleet Command.
In addition, the USS Enterprise-E is destroyed by the Undine during an investigation to Starbase 236. Captain Data opts to resign from Starfleet upon returning to Earth. (STO Short Story: An Unexpected Honor)
These are just SOME of the examples of Undine infiltration. And those aren't even the ones we see in-game, some of the Path to 2409 and so on. Tell me, how do we do a precise targetting of these infiltrators? Even our own PCs have a hard time on occasion noticing them (in universe, Zelle and the Ambassador were pretty obvious). Starfleet Security can't route them, the MACOs have a hard time killing them. How do you propose a precision strike from a Klingon point of view? Attack Earth? Kinda a rock and a hard place Starsword.
Also engaging in a full scale war like this is completely within Klingon Cultural norms. They don't half-do a war.
And attacking supply convoys? Thats a real strategy.
Also look at some of the duty officer assignments: klingon officers do alot of things without authorization. You can't always blame J'mpok for the actions of many of his officers.
shpoks, the Lethean thing is from my mission Honor of the Empire. We have exactly ZERO data saying why the Letheans are part of the KDF. I still think the fact the Empire started recruiting the telepathic Letheans and Ferasans makes the most sense if they're anti-Undine guards (especially with the Ferasans mostly serving in the Klingon Honor Guard based on NPCs).
Actually no, I haven't palyed your mission yet so I wouldn't know that. I however intend to, because someone highly recomeded them on the CatPhone.
I know that we have no data why the Letheans (and Ferasans as well) are a part of the KDF, other than a lore piece from "the path to 2409" that said the Leteans seeked alliance with the KDF in 2408 (I think it was 2408, not 100% sure), following the example set by the Nausicaans before that.
But that wasn't what I was saying. We don't know how and why the Letheans are a part of the KDF. What we know is that they are - and what I know is that there is a lore piece in "the path to 2409" stating that Letheans exposed the Undine infiltrators sent after Ja'rod.
As far as the Orion plothread goes... yeah probably forgotten about. Then again, we met Hassan last year and I never thought that would happen. I'll hope it goes somewhere, but remain cautiously optimistic knowing the dev's present attentions.
I remember when doing the mission "Mine Enemy" when you start investigating data from the Tal'Shiar listening post, there was a reference of Melanie D'ian secretly meeting with Drex in the House of Martok estate. I always thought it could mean something, or be some indicator about some KDF exclusive missions in the works developing the Orion storyline and maybe even expanding a new storyline about the Klingon Great Houses and internal politics.
Sadly, Cryptic seems to do a better job at retconning rather than developing storylines lately, so I'm not sure what we can expect out of that.
Seriously, I wouldn't have a problem with it except that the Klinks aren't actually targeting the Undine. If they were going after the infiltrators specifically and plastering video of the kills and bodies all over whatever Internet equivalent Star Trek has, thereby forcing the Federation to confront the problem or lose public support, I wouldn't even have a problem if they assassinated President Okeg. As long as he turned out to be an Undine afterwards.
Ahem, so you expect the Klingons to do that after being continuously humiliated and betrayed on more that one ocassion in the build up of the Klingon-Federation war, by no other than their suposed ally?
I don't think you're seeing things from Klignon perspective. The Undine are a primary target, but it has gone well beyond Undine before the war was declared. In the situation, the Klingons would feel betrayed and backstabbed by their suposed ally, and that is something Klingons don't take lightly and don't forget.
Besides, we have proof of Federation Officers (our own chars) exposing Undine infiltrators on more than one ocassion and what did Starfleet do with the evidence? Absolutely nothing, which led to the same Undinle infiltrators opening the gate between the Jenolan and Solanae Dyson Spheres.
So let me ask you, if they don't trust and act on the proof displayed by their own Starfleet Officers - what makes you think they'd trust Klingon videos of killed Undine? It's not like they trusted the Klingons when they presented evidence of the Gorn infiltration the first time, was it?
Instead, J'mpok and his cadre are just using the Undine as a convenient excuse to be their usual bloodthirsty drunken TRIBBLE$hole selves. The war actually started because J'mpok decided to go and do a land grab in the Hromi Cluster and attacked Federation colonies, not because the Feds are heavily infiltrated. That's the reason for my not liking him.
And this right here is a clear evidence of you observing these things very subjectively and from a Federation POV.
If he really wants to fight the Undine he needs to actually fight the Undine. The whole point of the infiltration is that they don't have the resources to take on the Alpha Quadrant in a stand-up battle. So instead of TRIBBLE around hitting random colonies and trade ships like he's been doing for the past four years, he should be doing something intelligent like taking the fight to their home territory (there's a nice doorway over on the other side of Gamma Orionis he could use) and putting them on the defensive.
Sorry but what you're saying would be such a strategic fail for the Empire, that if the Empire survived loresingers would compose songs of how big of a petaQ J'mpok really was.
What you're saying is have the Klingon Empire invade fluidic space with their entire fleet while they're at war with their arch enemy - the RSE and while Fek'ihr demons are showing up from nowhere and attacking in Klingon space.
Also while they are aware of a Undine infiltration in the Federation and they don't know how high up the chain it goes - essentially leaving a nice wide opening for the Federation, possibly influenced by the Undine themselves to organize an attack on the Empire.
Comments
He does. But he's also aware that he is not the right person for the job. And I agree, Worf as much as we all came to like him, is not suitable to lead the Klingon Empire.
I agree - they may end the war (and I hope they do), but that doesn't necessarily guarantee peace. There are outcomes which could end formal hostilies, allow for joint operations, and still allow for the re-establishment of the Neutral Zone and the occasional border skirmish.
Also J'mpok really isn't the monster everyone thinks he is. I'm more inclined to believe Torg was the Undine infiltrator. J'mpok has been proven right sooo many times. Yes, there were Undine among the Gorn Leadership, but not their King. Yes, there are Undine among the Federation (and even the Feds, backstory brings up Chakotay in particular, have realized far too late that he was right on that point) and that the Undine are so aggressive against their peoples a war really was necessary.
There is no evidence pointing to J'mpok as an Undine or anything less than a reasonable authority figure. Yes, he killed Martok. But that's par for the course for Klingon Politics. And while the House of Martok might want vengence, he did allow them to present their evidence of treachery by the House of Torg, which is the honorable thing to do. Gowron and K'mpec sure wouldn't have allowed that for their own political reasons.
And on a last note, it doesn't make sense to have J'mpok, D'tan or Quinn be Undine. The fact that Sulu was replaced in Terradome makes far more sense. The big name guy is going to be under constant scrutiny. Replace their Number One, which Sulu was. That guy can at least manipulate the data under the radar and trick the big goods into betraying their own people.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
Two, Michael Dorn said that the journalist who quoted him as working on a "Captain Worf" series took him way the heck out of context and that "Captain Worf" was something he'd like to do, not something he was actually doing.
Three, I have the impression from STO's version of Worf that he's mellowed a bit in the 30-odd years since DS9, although I could be imagining things. He doesn't seem as rigid as he was before, he's got a lot of respect still, he's got the combat skills to fend off challengers, and his ties to the Federation could actually help him mend fences once this stupid war ends.
Yeah, just like their counterintel efforts against the Dominion worked perfectly, immediately unmasking the changeling that replaced Martok before it was able to do any damage. Oh, wait.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Ja'rod, on the other hand...
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I am shpoks and I approve of this post!
I hope you realize that you just confirmed what sirboulevard has been saying - they didn't replace Gowron, they replaced Martok who was his 1-st General at the time.
As to the DS9 comparison - in DS9 the Klingon Empire didn't have Letheans, in STO they're here. They were the ones the blew the Undine infiltrators' cover and helped Jarod present the evidence to J'mpok in the first place. Don't you think those same Letheans would sound all kinds of alarms if they realized J'mpok is an Undine as well?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
"No peace in our time!" - General Chang
Oh, I'm really sorry but I just can't bother myself looking for the right piece of "The path to 2409" on the net at the moment.
However, I'm 100% sure that this was said in one of those lore pieces and I'm 100% sure that it was the Letheans who uncovered the Undine infiltrators due to their telepathic abilities that enabled them to sense that there are Undine underneath the "cover". Maybe someone that knows the exact piece of lore that says this can help.
And as far as the lore goes - Ja'rod brings the situation to J'mpok and afterwards takes his ship and dissapears from the radar for a while, finally returning after some time to inform of the Gorn situation. This part is also in one of those "The path to 2409" pieces of lore.
My assumption is that they extracted intel from the captured Undine and J'mpok sent Ja'rod on a undercover reconnaissance mission in Gorn space (which would explain the dissapearance of his ship and "maintaining radio silence" until he returned to Qo'noS with the proof). This part is not mentioned in the lore as far as I know, but it's the most logical deduction I came up with.
Most likely it will just be removed or it will be replaced with some other enemy like tal shiar or elachi being the area it borders. Most likely if its replaced at all it'll have some tie to the elachi and made into a cross faction lower dilithium horde.
Silly Klingons. War is for soldiers.
Then as far as I'm concerned you're talking out of your butt.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
He died a warrior's death.
Whatever. See if I care what you think or don't think.
I need all of you remember this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wmQeXuDGGU
Qapla'
You know darn well I meant "links or it didn't happen".
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Like I said, I'm not about to read through who knows how many lore pieces on the STO Wiki in order to locate the one I'm looking for. I'd rather play the mind numbing miniQ present game and that says a lot.
If I happen to stumble upon the part while doing the lore daily on my chars, I'll post the link.
Only a radical Klingon revolution that ends with the rolling be-ridged heads of all the nobles could ever create common ground between them and us, but even then it would take generations of such change before they were ready to join the free galaxy.
Pretty much what you have stated is the main reason why the undine used the methods they have. Its a common theme that very few Klingon's share same point of view with the federation or themselves. It is only when they all have a common enemy that they work together to defeat it. The Undine basically just used it to their advantage so they wouldn't come together to strengthen their alliances.
The only way I could potentially see this changing is if for some reason new leadership took over the KDF and in league with the federation re-instituted their different circles of classes aka science, engineering, law, etc. If they were to do that I would imagine they would like science it would be where they mostly worked with the daystom institute or some other group that focused in that area.
Usually before any productive change occurs in the Klingon Empire which is discussed in canon usually it involves all or most of the leadership being executed some fashion and then those without strong political motives taking charge to expand the empire. A good example is the discussion between Dax and Sirella about the Dynasty that was wiped out dismissing her claims of noble blood lol. How would you even know outsider? I was there.
Yep in the high ranks of KDF Generals but no support from the syndicate or the KDF to supply them with more orion vessels to use in combat such a great Cryptic story line and also makes it where Cryptic doesn't need to expand the Orion ship line rofl.
shpoks, the Lethean thing is from my mission Honor of the Empire. We have exactly ZERO data saying why the Letheans are part of the KDF. I still think the fact the Empire started recruiting the telepathic Letheans and Ferasans makes the most sense if they're anti-Undine guards (especially with the Ferasans mostly serving in the Klingon Honor Guard based on NPCs).
@Starsword: your argument is based mostly on circumstantial evidence at best. There is absolutely ZERO EVIDENCE pointing towards J'mpok being a bad guy. If he was a bad guy, Cryptic would not have written him to expose Torg. Period. An Undine would have viewed Torg as an excellent patsy. Even Ja'rod, who's his adopted son takes Torg's betrayal badly (source: incidental dialogue on Drozana Station) and Ja'rod is kinda J'mpok's golden child (He offered Ja'rod a seat on the high council but declined stating he would fight more battles earn his right on that council [Path to 2409 & The Needs of the Many novel]). Realistically, the two of them (Ja'rod and J'mpok) are Heroes with bad publicity. Ja'rod is the son of Lursa, naturally anyone familiar with them wouldn't trust him and he was B'Vat's attache (source: STO novel - The Needs of the Many), but he's honestly getting all the TRIBBLE his mentors did stuck on him with the most villianous thing he's done being... killing tribbles.
And J'mpok? While he has gone to war with the Federation, it is over a legitimate issue. The Federation looked at this evidence and went "La la la la! Not listening!" We've seen few indications of KDF infiltration (I can think of two and both of them were just bog standard captains, not even politically powerful ones) and personally MET at least three High-level max security clearance Undine infiltrators in the Federation. Ambassador Emotional-Vulcan, Admiral Zelle and Dr. Eric Cooper. J'mpok may not be popular, but you have to admit: he's been right. The Federation is deeply infiltrated and its not like the Undine are subtle about it! They'll drop disguises and go "tee hee hee, I'm undine!" in front of them.
And as shpoks pointed out, all you did was validate that it makes more sense not to take the leaderships' form and replace them. They make great smokescreens for what your doing. As pointed out: thats what the Founders did, thats what the Undine seem to be doing (if even less discretely) and its the most realistic option.
As far as the Orion plothread goes... yeah probably forgotten about. Then again, we met Hassan last year and I never thought that would happen. I'll hope it goes somewhere, but remain cautiously optimistic knowing the dev's present attentions.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
Actually, my argument is mostly based on I don't like the guy and I want to see Worf chop his head off.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Which is an emotional response. I didn't like J'mpok at first, but as the story has grown, I've built a grudging respect for him. In many ways, J'mpok and Martok are pretty similar. Both are fairly even handed in their dealing (for klingons), but still willing to fight it out over what they feel is important. Both have respect for their enemies (re-read the information on how the Gorn got a seat on the High Council). And both do value Klingon Honor. Both are also very liberal Klingons that are pretty open to non-Klingon races to a degree.
When I look at J'mpok nowadays, I see Cryptic making a Martok clone so they don't have to deal with rights and lawyers and paying for Hertzler's voice.
Am I mad that he killed Martok? Yeah. I am. But then I remember Alexander's words. "We do nothing but blind ourselves to greater threats when we kill each other over honor and glory."
Worf v. Martok may be the single most request duel of the game, but I fear it would be the end of the Empire. (Plus J'mpok is slowly changing the Empire, it feels more like the Federation with more authorized killin' now and I find that interesting).
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
Instead, J'mpok and his cadre are just using the Undine as a convenient excuse to be their usual bloodthirsty drunken TRIBBLE$hole selves. The war actually started because J'mpok decided to go and do a land grab in the Hromi Cluster and attacked Federation colonies, not because the Feds are heavily infiltrated. That's the reason for my not liking him.
If he really wants to fight the Undine he needs to actually fight the Undine. The whole point of the infiltration is that they don't have the resources to take on the Alpha Quadrant in a stand-up battle. So instead of TRIBBLE around hitting random colonies and trade ships like he's been doing for the past four years, he should be doing something intelligent like taking the fight to their home territory (there's a nice doorway over on the other side of Gamma Orionis he could use) and putting them on the defensive.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
There is absolutely no [canon] evidence that the high Klingon culture of the 23rd century survived in any form into the 24th century and certainly not the 25th century. Like the fall of Rome on Earth, the transition from classical civilization to the complete saturation of barbarism was swift and evidently lasting. The "Klingon Empire" at present is but a snapshot of an alien dark age, hardly worthy of the same name, for it is emphatically no longer the same entity as, say, Chancellor Gorkon's government, at all. Bottom line: in retrospect, Ambassador Spock's plan failed miserably because the Federation did nothing to help the post-Praxis Klingons implement the economic changes necessary to build a widely educated and politically egalitarian society: to wit, widely distributing wealth, opening schools and founts of propaganda for the proliferation of republican values.
Bit of a 180 policy shift for someone who isn't an Undine, is all I'm saying.
This character is why I don't play my Romulan any more. Tovan Khev is NOT my BFF! Get him off my bridge!
Im going to have pull out the big guns I guess. *snags my copy of The Needs of the Many*
Let's see:
These are just SOME of the examples of Undine infiltration. And those aren't even the ones we see in-game, some of the Path to 2409 and so on. Tell me, how do we do a precise targetting of these infiltrators? Even our own PCs have a hard time on occasion noticing them (in universe, Zelle and the Ambassador were pretty obvious). Starfleet Security can't route them, the MACOs have a hard time killing them. How do you propose a precision strike from a Klingon point of view? Attack Earth?
Also engaging in a full scale war like this is completely within Klingon Cultural norms. They don't half-do a war.
And attacking supply convoys? Thats a real strategy.
Also look at some of the duty officer assignments: klingon officers do alot of things without authorization. You can't always blame J'mpok for the actions of many of his officers.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
Actually no, I haven't palyed your mission yet so I wouldn't know that. I however intend to, because someone highly recomeded them on the CatPhone.
I know that we have no data why the Letheans (and Ferasans as well) are a part of the KDF, other than a lore piece from "the path to 2409" that said the Leteans seeked alliance with the KDF in 2408 (I think it was 2408, not 100% sure), following the example set by the Nausicaans before that.
But that wasn't what I was saying. We don't know how and why the Letheans are a part of the KDF. What we know is that they are - and what I know is that there is a lore piece in "the path to 2409" stating that Letheans exposed the Undine infiltrators sent after Ja'rod.
I remember when doing the mission "Mine Enemy" when you start investigating data from the Tal'Shiar listening post, there was a reference of Melanie D'ian secretly meeting with Drex in the House of Martok estate. I always thought it could mean something, or be some indicator about some KDF exclusive missions in the works developing the Orion storyline and maybe even expanding a new storyline about the Klingon Great Houses and internal politics.
Sadly, Cryptic seems to do a better job at retconning rather than developing storylines lately, so I'm not sure what we can expect out of that.
Ahem, so you expect the Klingons to do that after being continuously humiliated and betrayed on more that one ocassion in the build up of the Klingon-Federation war, by no other than their suposed ally?
I don't think you're seeing things from Klignon perspective. The Undine are a primary target, but it has gone well beyond Undine before the war was declared. In the situation, the Klingons would feel betrayed and backstabbed by their suposed ally, and that is something Klingons don't take lightly and don't forget.
Besides, we have proof of Federation Officers (our own chars) exposing Undine infiltrators on more than one ocassion and what did Starfleet do with the evidence? Absolutely nothing, which led to the same Undinle infiltrators opening the gate between the Jenolan and Solanae Dyson Spheres.
So let me ask you, if they don't trust and act on the proof displayed by their own Starfleet Officers - what makes you think they'd trust Klingon videos of killed Undine? It's not like they trusted the Klingons when they presented evidence of the Gorn infiltration the first time, was it?
And this right here is a clear evidence of you observing these things very subjectively and from a Federation POV.
Sorry but what you're saying would be such a strategic fail for the Empire, that if the Empire survived loresingers would compose songs of how big of a petaQ J'mpok really was.
What you're saying is have the Klingon Empire invade fluidic space with their entire fleet while they're at war with their arch enemy - the RSE and while Fek'ihr demons are showing up from nowhere and attacking in Klingon space.
Also while they are aware of a Undine infiltration in the Federation and they don't know how high up the chain it goes - essentially leaving a nice wide opening for the Federation, possibly influenced by the Undine themselves to organize an attack on the Empire.