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Season 9 Dev Blog #5: Changes to Reputation Powers

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  • thyrnecristhyrnecris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Reading over the passives.....there are pretty much at least 3 'must have' traits in both ground and space each. Especially now, with the significantly improved effects.
    Dyson: T1/T2 Crit Severity. Simple as that. Especially now, with the Effect at 20%, up from 10.
    Nukara: T1/T2 Shield Bleedthrough. Same as the previous line.
    New Romulus: T1/T2 Crit Hit Chance. No Brainer, as the previous two.

    Thus, 1 Space and Ground Slot is left.
    A middle ground for this new system should, in my opinion, be: For each new Reputation line, 1 Space and Ground Passive Slot gets added. Since unless future Rep lines come with passives that are even stronger than the 6 choices above, we will STILL end up with only 1 slot actually being available on space/ground.
  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Leveling the playing field was one thing the dev said.

    The truth is this is about more then just that. It is also about the future of the game.

    They can't let rep creep continue with out making the current content harder.... Raising a level cap would only solve the issue for a short time frame.

    Lets assume the new rep comes out and they make the content hard enough that you find it interesting with your 5 completed reps... that same content is now that much harder for the new guy with no rep.

    There system is elegant and the same system used by games like LORO. Where you can unlock tons of cool passives... but you are limited to X number.

    The only real argument on this change as I see it is...

    Is the rep system right now FINE ... in which case a limit of 8 would allow for the status que with the new 5th and following reps being the optional reps for Vets... and one of the options for new players.

    Or Is the number of current passives part of the problem... in which case it is in need of a reduction.

    Now I am obviously in the camp that feels the game has to much right now... and a reduction to 4 active is a good step.

    Either way it needs to have a limit... the number of reps is only going to grow... and the balancing of new content is going to get harder and harder for Cryptic.

    I don't disagree with any of that. I was simply arguing the point of entitlement, which is a word I see getting tossed around too much.

    If the real issue is the future of the game, they also do need to keep in mind the veteran players. I will adjust to this system, like I do with any change. I don't like it, and I find it constricting. Many of the passives I will never use, and I assume that is the case for most. The limit of 4 though I think is the biggest problem. I feel like 8 would be too much as it wouldn't do anything to quell the current problem, but 4 is too low. I think 6 is a fair number.

    I am not actually a fan of the powers getting buffed however. Some passives are really powerful as they are, and I can already see some very deadly things I can do with the buffed ones. I think they should stay as they are, with the few minor changes here and there to some skills, and up the cap to 6, or as some have said, 8 universal.

    In your comparison to LOtRO, you miss the very important aspect of your passive slots increased as you leveled up. Now, I haven't played in over a year or so, but if I remember correctly, at max level you have 5, that you earned through leveling. Every new player got 2, but veterans got more because they actually put time into leveling their character.

    This change is just a blanket "everyone has 4".

    I agree that the playing field needs to be somewhat leveled, but this is a very drastic measure towards a not very drastic problem.
  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    So, Hawk has said they will never charge for respecs in this brave new world system.

    OK, let's assume Hawk has the authority to make that so.

    What about extra trait slots?

    Can we get an equally unequivocal promise that these, if ever created, will also be free?

    In other words, they wont be hidden in tier 2 and 3 of a new holding?

    Because if not, then this is a case of taking stuff away to sell it back to us later.
  • atomictikiatomictiki Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014

    Total nonsense. No noob is going to go into a PvE instance and see some veteran blowing up borg ships 2x as fast and complain. She'll be done and out of that instance, maybe even with the sidequest done, in half the time.

    Total nonsense. This is a nerf and if it really does have nothing to do with PvP, we'll soon see the monetization behind it.
    Leave nerfing to the professionals.
  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Different topic for a later dev blog. Give em time.

    Not really.

    The stated aim of the proposed change is to address power creep.

    Lock box ships, at least some of them, are part of that problem.

    As are some zen ships.

    There's not a lot of point fiddling around with one mechanism, with minimal impact on power creep, and ignoring those other items, if your stated aim is to address power creep.

    This is a bit like someone saying we want to address world hunger, so we're working on tackling obesity in Florida.
  • oakland4lifeoakland4life Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Nerf'ing the amount of Rep Traits to 4 Space and 4 Ground pool's and Buffing the amount of Damage and Defense to 25-100% on the previous Rep Traits...

    How would this solve the Power Creep?

    This will make players do less grinding especially for players who grind only or mostly for Rep Traits thats not really comparable to the ones that Cryptic Buff'd for S9 especially if players can only use 4 for Space or Ground.

    Why not make a Rep Trait Pool of 8 Universals instead of a Restricted 4 Space and 4 Ground since like i said b4 that Skill tree in this game force to make ur character either a very good Space and Ground character and any1 that's balance in both fronts would most likely will be killed.

    8 Universal Rep Traits Pool (of course w/load out or respec like Reg Traits) brings more diversity to characters either they're space or ground without the need for more ppl spamming the same hand full of OP Rep Traits that Cryptic planned for S9... cause that will not solve the power creep issue if most or if not every1 using 100% passive 5% crit, 100% passive 20% Crit Dmg, 100% passive bonus Weapon Dmg and so on.
  • o0kami87o0kami87 Member Posts: 590 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Okay, now that I understand what they are doing I don't like it. Leveling the playing field my rear end! Of course a level 50 player that has completed the reps is stronger than a new level 50 player, they busted their butt to get those passive abilities. They activity worked for it and now you are yanking that carrot on a stick away. Why would I work on new reps if I can only use a handful of the passives? Or the actives for that matter? The only thing saving the system is the ability to change selected skills at will. Cryptic you are walking a vary fine and dangerous line, bending over backwards for the so called "casual player" is driving away heavy gamers and trek fans. I personally know 3 ex players that stopped playing for over the last time you cow towed to such group.
    First, Vice Admiral, U.S.S. Wolf Pack-F, NX-101687-FFirst., Vice Admiral, A.R.W. Moon WolfWolf, I.K.S. Frost Bite
  • whatinblueblazeswhatinblueblazes Member Posts: 200 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Takes one of the edges off power creep
    Creates greater on the fly customisability, fits well with the new build system if it can be incorporated
    Creates less of a gap for newer players who haven't been able to sink as much into the rep system
    Reduces the lockoutiness of the rep system.
    Encourages more careful decisions
    Allows for infinite scaleability

    This is a really good, solid decision.

    I agree entirely. I personally much prefer a hot-swappable selection of powerful passive choices than the current power-creepy system.

    I'm sorry that some people are dismayed by this change, but it seems to me that once people get to play with this for a bit, they won't miss the current system. Just on paper, I can see this being pretty nice for most if not all of my builds. As always, time will tell.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    There is a difference between feeling owed and earning something.

    I hear what you (and a few others are saying) Yes we did earn the reps.

    However they are not being taken away. They are simply only allowing us to activate 4 at a time. I am still glad I will have the option to choose which ones I want to have on... I unlocked them all, so I can swap back and forth.

    New players can choose to unlock only 4 they want... or unlock them all and play around with them like we have.

    Lets be completely honest this game is NOT that hard to set your toon up... in MMO terms this game is easy. Compare this to one of the old guard MMOs and its kindergarden.

    Makes me think of the system in LOTRO (Lord of the Rings Online) where you can earn passive traits by doing X Y or Z. (Killing 1000 of this or completing this area ect) Each passive would level up to 10 and get a bit better each level. However you where limited to X number of them slotted at one time. (which you could respec if you wanted).

    Many players in LOTRO would pick a hanful of traits they felt where a benifit to there build and they would go and earn them and slot them.... others would be completionist and earn them ALL and swap around as they liked... and most would earn enough for a few load outs.

    The nice thing was a new player could fill there basic trait list pretty quick, and be mostly on par with long time players. However as they played they unlocked more traits and some of the harder to earn ones that where slightly better.

    It worked in that game BECAUSE there was a limit on the number of active traits. With out a limit new players would have had to put in months of grind content to catch up.

    I like this new system... in a week or so new players can have 4 half decent tier 2 space traits to slot... and really 4 ground ones in a couple days. That is enough to be close to equal in terms of content they can tackle.... after that they can earn there better ones and optional ones that would allow them to swap builds ect.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    thyrnecris wrote: »
    Reading over the passives.....there are pretty much at least 3 'must have' traits in both ground and space each. Especially now, with the significantly improved effects.
    Dyson: T1/T2 Crit Severity. Simple as that. Especially now, with the Effect at 20%, up from 10.
    Nukara: T1/T2 Shield Bleedthrough. Same as the previous line.
    New Romulus: T1/T2 Crit Hit Chance. No Brainer, as the previous two.

    Thus, 1 Space and Ground Slot is left.
    A middle ground for this new system should, in my opinion, be: For each new Reputation line, 1 Space and Ground Passive Slot gets added. Since unless future Rep lines come with passives that are even stronger than the 6 choices above, we will STILL end up with only 1 slot actually being available on space/ground.

    I would add the 4th must have as the Omega tier 2 passive damage increase.

    There, we already got the cookie cutter set up folks!
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • jack24bau3rjack24bau3r Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Someone hit the nail on the head, additional rep trait slots will be hidden behind a holding unlock, and a 150k fc purchase.
  • tucana66tucana66 Member Posts: 710 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Apologies, if this has already been covered... I couldn't find a specific mention of this.

    Are there any plans (like community participation in the past) of providing an in-game reward for Tribble participation?

    We've had some cool Tribble prizes for past testing endeavors. I'm curious if there's a reward planned or not.

    Cryptic: Dangle the cheese. More testers, more feedback... :)
  • cidstormcidstorm Member Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Different topic for a later dev blog. Give em time.

    Lock boxes have been around since before the reputation system. The power disparity they provide is just as large or larger but it won't go away because the devs don't actually care about balance.

    They never have, it's part of why PVP has always been so messed up, the only reason this change happened is because it had to. Anyone with half a cents worth of foresight could see that activated powers could only be provided so many times, but instead of dealing with this off the bat when reputation was created the devs allowed everyone to slave through minimal amounts of content repeatedly for these rewards. The answer to the problem is just as dumb as the problems creation, the devs deserve every bit of backlash they get for this.
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Lotro has completely changed their trait trees recently. Most people on forums are angry but it doesn't bother me.


    Here I have to ask again - why would I play season 9 rep????
    I hope there's a really good reason to do so because I was really looking forward to it.
    I actually like the rep grinds (except nukara). But I'm questioning whether I would bother now :(
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

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  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    However they are not being taken away. They are simply only allowing us to activate 4 at a time.

    Ok, you often make observations i can agree with but the above is semantic hogwash.

    They are taking away the ability to have the passives we have earned active all the time, as was originally intended.

    While you may well have valid points regarding power creep, this continued denial of the essential character of this change is not making you more credible.
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    It's free. Super-free.

    ... until you start selling us slots like you did with the extra Doff assignment slots and the extra "active doff" slots for space & ground .

    'Cuz there will come a point when ppl will be asking themselves , why should I do thir new Rep when I have 30 or 60 Rep powers and I can only slot 8 active-passive powers .

    See Jeff , the real problem remains :
    If you want to do a complete powers revamp , then do a complete powers revamp .

    This bit right here ... is just a band-aid ... , the same kind of band-aid that the whole unworkable Rep system was from the get go .
    And just like y'all pretended to not see this outcome , now you're pretending not to see the outcome of your latest shenanigan .

    Kinda sad really .
  • gatsie7gatsie7 Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    So to all you Veterans like myself that spent money and man Hours to get all that we have . What a rip off ....Boo hoo to all the players that don't take the time or energy to complete the rep systems as always The Vet's get the Fist.
    Since when is it suppose to be fair for someone to start a game and expect to be an equal to someone that has been here for the last 4 years? Get a sac and grind like the rest of us have , Oh wait scratch that just spend money on lock boxes and complain and then you deserve to be as great as a veteran.
    Seriously thou at what point will those of us that log into the game everyday get a little respect along with things (beside Accolades) that new players can't get ? Show some respect to those that have been loyal followers of this game even before it was free to play. We do deserve more than your admirations.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    atomictiki wrote: »
    Total nonsense. No noob is going to go into a PvE instance and see some veteran blowing up borg ships 2x as fast and complain. She'll be done and out of that instance, maybe even with the sidequest done, in half the time.

    Total nonsense. This is a nerf and if it really does have nothing to do with PvP, we'll soon see the monetization behind it.

    Well one PvE isn't the only game mode in the game.

    Yes new players will come into PvP Get blow up instantly by Vet players that owe 90% of the victory to power creep and either complain or worse just leave.

    As far as PvE it is the reverse that is the issue. When they make content hard enough to keep the vets entertained enough to stick around... it becomes harder for the new player. So the Vet gets stuck on a pug with 3 or 4 new players... and WINES that his team sucks and can't complete the mission fast enough or can't get an optional. (what ever the case is to complain about)... after seeing "Ohhh damn noobs" in zone chat 10 times in an evening again the new player either complains... or worse just leaves.

    As much as we as vets may not want to admit it ... we have to have the game new player friendly at least somewhat... the fewer of them that stick around the quick the game dies off.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • goddard22goddard22 Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    gatsie7 wrote: »
    So to all you Veterans like myself that spent money and man Hours to get all that we have . What a rip off ....Boo hoo to all the players that don't take the time or energy to complete the rep systems as always The Vet's get the Fist.
    Since when is it suppose to be fair for someone to start a game and expect to be an equal to someone that has been here for the last 4 years? Get a sac and grind like the rest of us have , Oh wait scratch that just spend money on lock boxes and complain and then you deserve to be as great as a veteran.
    Seriously thou at what point will those of us that log into the game everyday get a little respect along with things (beside Accolades) that new players can't get ? Show some respect to those that have been loyal followers of this game even before it was free to play. We do deserve more than your admirations.

    Big approval
  • tudor005tudor005 Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Milions of EC
    Hours of grinding.....
    More hours of grinding.....

    And now take it away, because some new player might feel underpowered? Like someone forces anyone to fight in the arenas:confused:

    Someone should get fired......or better someone shoul get ro0bbed of his paycheck after hour and hours of work....
  • jack24bau3rjack24bau3r Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Someone else also hit another nail, this fits the definition of fraud.
  • renner64renner64 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Well they way it looks is a cross the bord nerf,that said where dose it stop? are consoles we bought or got as rare drops next fleet weapons lobi ships so on?All in the name of the gap is to big between a new lev 50 and a vet lev 50.We all that have played along time worked hard for or bought items to improve us in game. It sounds like a good ideal for the rep system but do you really think its going to stop there?This is the begaining of the care bear drum beating and like a lot of other mmos that went down this path off line is where this journey will end.
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Well one PvE isn't the only game mode in the game.

    Yes new players will come into PvP Get blow up instantly by Vet players that owe 90% of the victory to power creep and either complain or worse just leave.

    As far as PvE it is the reverse that is the issue. When they make content hard enough to keep the vets entertained enough to stick around... it becomes harder for the new player. So the Vet gets stuck on a pug with 3 or 4 new players... and WINES that his team sucks and can't complete the mission fast enough or can't get an optional. (what ever the case is to complain about)... after seeing "Ohhh damn noobs" in zone chat 10 times in an evening again the new player either complains... or worse just leaves.

    As much as we as vets may not want to admit it ... we have to have the game new player friendly at least somewhat... the fewer of them that stick around the quick the game dies off.

    That could be fixed with a simple matchmaking ssystem that puts veterans against veterans, and noobs against noobs.

    The game could rate the gear and reputations and playtime, and decide to at least make even teams. Durr games have been doing that for some time.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • vengefuldjinnvengefuldjinn Member Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    cidstorm wrote: »
    "This seems like a good way to stop people from caring about reputation"

    I was thinking this myself. I know we have to start somewhere......

    While I appreciate that something had to be done about the reputation passives accruing more and more, with each new upcoming reputation, I'm not too keen on having my "rewards", (because I consider the passives as my rewards) changed AFTER I've already earned them.
    It kind of turns me off to the next set of reputations you may throw at me to be honest.

    All this sudden concern to fix power creep, doesn't even begin to address the 800 lb gorilla in the room that's causing a lot of power creep. Lockboxes.

    Each new Box ship offering has to be more fantastic than the last, or else why would anyone be willing to spend lots of money trying to get that new trophy ship ? (One that's nice to look at sure, but not that competitive stats wise? I don't think THAT lockbox would do well)

    Don't get me started on lockbox consoles.

    Are lockboxes gonna get changed too?

    Because to be honest, while these changes on the rep system DO address, SOME of the power creep issues, I don't see them addressing some of the real problems.

    THE DELIBERATE SALE OF POWER CREEP.

    You're just nerfing player rewards unless you address all of the contributors to the creep in my opinion.
    tumblr_o2aau3b7nh1rkvl19o1_400.gif








  • goddard22goddard22 Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    well it is interesting that the author of the blog had to justify this over and over again....

    reminds me of the time when someone had to do 6 podcasts to explain why dinos need lasers =D
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Lotro has completely changed their trait trees recently. Most people on forums are angry but it doesn't bother me.


    Here I have to ask again - why would I play season 9 rep????
    I hope there's a really good reason to do so because I was really looking forward to it.
    I actually like the rep grinds (except nukara). But I'm questioning whether I would bother now :(

    I haven't played lotro in a good year at least... I should patch it up and check it out. Fun to see what changes devs make when you been away awhile. lol :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • kimonykimony Member Posts: 571 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I've seen this assertion made repeatedly, and I want to clarify - I'm not saying a new 50 should be equal to a veteran 50, nor will they be under this new system. I am saying that combat math where a fresh 50 deals 500 DPS but a veteran 50 deals 40,000 DPS is too wide a performance delta to sustain gameplay between those two actors.

    Guess they need to spend time grinding some gear like the veterans have then, and I say say that being one of the lowbies without great gear still grinding for all the things.

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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    tudor005 wrote: »
    Milions of EC
    Hours of grinding.....
    More hours of grinding.....

    And now take it away, because some new player might feel underpowered? Like someone forces anyone to fight in the arenas:confused:

    Someone should get fired......or better someone shoul get ro0bbed of his paycheck after hour and hours of work....

    It isn't about some new player... its the fact that they will be adding more and more reps obviously and they can't keep putting out more challanging level 50 content... when level 50 doesn't always = level 50. :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • edited March 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • coffeemikecoffeemike Member Posts: 942 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Barring any local catastrophes, you should be able to test this on Thursday on Tribble.

    Then I say let's test this out on Tribble and see what we like, dont like, outright want to shoot out of an airlock.
This discussion has been closed.