I said there is no game play value. That's quite a difference from no value at all.
You might be able to derive some kind of value from sector space, but as game play is concerned, it's quite barren. In the end, sector space is a poorly thought out and poorly executed mechanic that is desperately in need of an overhaul.
I like that link. It says You said that if we allow A to happen, then Z will eventually happen too, therefore A should not happen.
In the case of certain zones being made more and more redundant I think a new slippery-slope type is required.
Midway down the slippery-slope - "When a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h and i have occurred it is reasonable to assume that j will be next. We should really try to stop at j"
However, I can wholly agree that sector space needs an overhaul.
I can even see how the proposed new ship swap mechanism could be part of that, provided the proposed amendment is made.
If people are looking at which sector they're in, in terms of distance from resupply, then we're already starting to make sector space (or at least which part of sector space you're in) important.
However, the proposed ship swap mechanism, if allowed everywhere, would be its death knell.
There's still a pulse, if faint and thready.
False dilemma and slippery slope in one post.
False dilemma in that you seem to be perceiving only two possibilities, and are certainly presenting only two possibilities. In reality, the "amendment" which you favor is only one of several things that could be done. The lengthy post by darramouss1 to which I replied just a few posts ago offers other proposed modifications. The point is that almost any question has at least three answers. This sort of thinking in "Black Or White And No Other Options" is one of the several reasons why I contend that we need three full factions in game, to discourage such limited and limiting approaches to everything. Dualism stinks, because it seeks to limit everything to two and only two options -- it seeks to limit the unlimited (thought, imagination, creativity).
Slippery slope in that you have stated, in no uncertain terms, but a definite conditional statement, that If X then Y, without showing any reason to believe the truth of that proposition. Your slippery slope appears to be an unwarranted assumption, a bit of hyperbole, an attempt at fear-mongering, or a belief in the infallibility of your divinatory powers.
I'm wondering if changing ships in sector space is a precursor to what they said a long time ago they wanted to do. They mentioned way back at one point that they wanted to increase the level cap to 60, give us full admiral and general rank, and allow us to command a fleet of our own starships.
It's possible the season 8.5 changes could set the foundation for that. But my guess is that it will take a new full season or expansion before we see anything like that.
I won't hold my breath, but I like what I'm hearing about the changes so far.
I hope they do this, what's the point of being an Admiral when you can't command a fleet. Honestly this is the only space game I play where I don't have a fleet following me around in combat. It makes me feel more like a Lieutenant than an Admiral.
One day Cryptic will be free from their Perfect World overlord. Until that day comes, they will continue to pamper the whales of this game, and ignore everyone that isn't a whale.
After catching back up on whats been posted the real heart of the matter raises it's head, those opposed seem to think the social hubs will be abandoned. Don't worry the trolls will still be there and those who may be like me will still avoid it like the plague. I'd also like to know just how many people actually change ships that often. My main char never changes ships unless I get nuts and grab a new shiny CStore ship. I'll be slammed for this but I don't go to the hub vendors either I just dump the junk in the replicator and be done with it, or call the freighter to use the bank or exchange. I'm the very type of person that those against this seem to hate the most. I also have to point out that the vaunted random attacks that use to happen seem to be colored by rose tinted glasses, I and a great many others would just automatically warp out of the encounter each time it happened.
I would have to say from a purely convenience factor it would be great to be able to switch
ships on the fly - however with limitations you can already do that on the shuttle bridge now... So it changes from a choice of two ships to a choice between all of your ships.
From a believability and immersion factor, what I find more ridiculous is a three-pip Admiral in the captain's chair of a single starship. No, this game is not based on real military structure, but consider this scenario:
A United States Navy Carrier Strike Group (CSG) is commanded by a Rear Admiral who generally resides on the carrier itself. He/she is in overall command of the entire Strike Group. He/she does not directly command the carrier itself - that is the responsibility of a Captain who is assigned command of the carrier.
Other elements of this CSG include:
* The Carrier Air Wing - the squadrons of aircraft stationed on the carrier. Overseen by the Commander Air Group (CAG) - Captain in rank;
* Guided missile cruisers - overseen by Captains;
* Destroyers - overseen by Captains;
* Submarine/s - overseen by Captains;
* Supply and logistics vessels - overseen by Captains.
The point of this description is as background for my take on the situation - my question is not why or how a ship should/should not be able to dispatch out for you to transfer command to. My question is why my other ships aren't out there with me in the first place. Am I an Admiral or not?
If not, and I am only effectively a Captain in terms of my power and authority in game, then why do I have a personal fleet of ships? I don't recall any of the starring Captains of the Star Trek franchise having a personal fleet of ships that they could change command to. Kirk stuck to the Enterprise, its refit, and its replacement when it sploded. Picard stuck to the -D for the entire TNG series, until it sploded and he got the -E. So on and so forth.
The point is Captains didn't jump from ship to ship in canon - they were assigned a command and they stuck to it. So as a ship captain, where do we get the mechanic of personal 'garages' of ships that we can jump to as we like? The only way that would be believable is if as Admirals we have a battlegroup assigned to our command, and that by nature involves the ships in that battlegroup travelling with us.
---
What I would suggest is, starting at Rear Admiral Lower (or equivalent - lvl 40):
* Unlocking extra ship slots for accompanying ships, using a similar or identical system to Boffs on ground missions;
* 1 or 2 initial extra ship slots unlocked at Rear Admiral Lower Half or equivalent rank (lvl 40);
* 1 or 2 extra ship slots per rank (not level) above lvl 40;
* Additional "Universal Captain Bridge Officer Station" added to each ship;
* Boffs promotable to Captain, and assigned as the captain of a particular ship in your group. That ship gains the Boff's abilities and AI;
* Each ship is staffed with its own complement of bridge officers optimised for that ship;
* You as Group Commander have overall authority and can set up and co-ordinate other ships (like the Boff commands in ground missions);
* You as Group Commander have direct control of your 'Flagship' (i.e. your selected ship, which functions as the lead ship in the group);
* You as Group Commander can transfer your flag to any of the ships in your group, and directly control that ship - This deals with the ship swapping issue;
---
If you wanted to keep starbases and social areas relevant, then perhaps you could place logistical limitations on ships in keeping with 'realism':
* limited shipboard supplies of Deuterium and Antimatter for your reactors, meaning a need to visit shipyards or starbases to 'refuel';
* limited numbers of torpedoes/consumables (can be bolstered by supply vessels, but even milk cows run out of juice as well - yes, I've read some of the arguments over this, it's just an idea here as part of a bigger picture);
* Make repair supplies (Components/regenerators) temporary, with a visit to shipyard/starbase required for permanent repairs.
Convenient and easy? Probably not. More complex and involved? Yeah, probably, but (for me at least) as a 3 pip Admiral it would be more believable and immersive.
Anyway, apologies for the long post, but that's just my take on it.
TL;DR: As an Admiral I'd rather have my ships out with me, then I could transfer my flag (i.e. switch ships) on the fly without having to 'call a ship from spacedock' or whatever...
Somewhere on the wrong side of insanity.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately be explained by stupidity" ~ Robert Heinlein.
It's great to have the functionality introduced, and as I tend to do with "upgrades and features", I just use my imagination to tie them in to my own experience. Sure there are adjustments that I would like to see, or functions and capabilities I don't utilize, but that's up to me as the player to tailor my experience to me.
It's easy for us to tell them what we would like to see, as well as pass judgement on how things should be introduced or implemented into the game. However, we must also realize that with thousands of players, there is an astronomical chance that we would all agree on a new feature or content. For a player to get upset at a new addition is not productive, nor is it conducive to your own experience.
If I want to transfer my flag in-space rather than go back to Space Dock, then great, the functionality is there. If I want to stick to my old ways and trek back to Space Dock, then I can keep on trekking the old-fashioned way.
By no means am I calling out anyone, nor am I being presumptuous in trying to dictate what the devs add to the game, or how the additions should function. My only point is that we can offer ideas to developers in a professional and courteous manner, and give feedback on the way features operate so they may make updates or edits to gameplay. If there's a feature/function I don't like, I just don't use it. If I convince myself to change my experience, there's a way to do so with STO. Content is always changing, and with the Foundry, it's easy to find ways to get new content on my own.
I'm proud to call myself a fan and player of the game, and I hope that I can do so for a very long time.
=/\= =========================== =/\=
William Thomas Flannery - Blue Company - Bravo Team Leader
U.S.S. Coos Bay
Fleet - Directive 010, United Federation Of Planets
=/\= =========================== =/\=
I really like the idea of changing your skillset per ship like in wow with the 2nd skill spec.
The Ship-Change is IMHO not that important, most ppl stick to one ship and only change them from time to time. Maybe an 1-2 hour CD would be an idea with the space/friendly area change.
Best would be 3 different ship/skill sets you can choose from - so ship and skill selection is bonded. Like Escort with full dps skilling as set 1, set 2 with a cruiser and tank set, set 3 with a cruiser just for the heck of it. Or a special anti-borg set 1, anti-vorth set 2 and anti-crystal set 3
I really like the idea of changing your skillset per ship like in wow with the 2nd skill spec.
The Ship-Change is IMHO not that important, most ppl stick to one ship and only change them from time to time. Maybe an 1-2 hour CD would be an idea with the space/friendly area change.
Best would be 3 different ship/skill sets you can choose from - so ship and skill selection is bonded. Like Escort with full dps skilling as set 1, set 2 with a cruiser and tank set, set 3 with a cruiser just for the heck of it. Or a special anti-borg set 1, anti-vorth set 2 and anti-crystal set 3
No cooldown, no limiting to friendly space, no limited number of torpedoes, no refueling, no to any other pointless hassle. Holy TRIBBLE. "Let's get rid of one mind-numbingly pointless and time-consuming hassle and add 15 more!" No, and not even "No, thank you," just "No." Sheesh. Games are supposed to be fun, an escape from the tedium of real life, rather than just another manifestation of tedium.
The onlyreason I generally stick to one ship is because "Lock Skill Tray," which should save your build already, does not, so that each time I change my ship, I have to rearrange things on my skill tray, sometimes reassign BOffs to stations, etc.
When convenience becomes more important than the features of the game, those features no longer contribute anything worthwhile, they just sit there, in order to look pretty. If everything should be rendered irrelevant, because it is a hassle, then it comes down to the question of what this product is truly offering. A mindless ride, for the sake of convenience, inspired by other mindless rides, or some kind of virtual Star Trek exerience, adapted to the digital format, where you at least get a rudimentary impression of being *somewhere*.
Single player games have to make sense unto themselves in some fashion, the MMO is apparently above such petty notions. You can just put in anything there, and it will be accepted, as long as you can skip something. Like interacting with anything that stands between you, and the path of least resistance. That is a fine soup, without so much as a lump in it, and just as intriguing to taste. Please, enjoy your convenient ride, it will not have to last long, they will see to that. Time is of the essence, even more so than essence itself.
What you consider pointless and time consuming is actually fun for others.
To many of us, Immersion = Fun.
This is after all an MMORPG, not an Arcade Game.
I enjoy immersion. I don't enjoy tasks for the sake of tasks, which serve no purpose other than time consumption or pacifying someone who claims they are needed for "immersion." Again, does your character ever take a sonic shower? Sleep? Go to the powder room? Have to eat and/or drink? If your imagination is so weak, then the addition of time-consuming and needless activities isn't going to improve your sense of "immersion."
I enjoy immersion. I don't enjoy tasks for the sake of tasks, which serve no purpose other than time consumption or pacifying someone who claims they are needed for "immersion." Again, does your character ever take a sonic shower? Sleep? Go to the powder room? Have to eat and/or drink? If your imagination is so weak, then the addition of time-consuming and needless activities isn't going to improve your sense of "immersion."
Microcosmos vs. macrocosmos. This is not "The Sims" for sure. Not "Space Invaders" either. The very detailed vs. the very abstracted. Tasks for the sake of tasks, convenience for the sake of convenience. Are these not the extremes? We just need to stay in the Goldilocks Zone. That is all.
I would have to say from a purely convenience factor it would be great to be able to switch
ships on the fly - however with limitations you can already do that on the shuttle bridge now... So it changes from a choice of two ships to a choice between all of your ships.
From a believability and immersion factor, what I find more ridiculous is a three-pip Admiral in the captain's chair of a single starship. No, this game is not based on real military structure, but consider this scenario:
A United States Navy Carrier Strike Group (CSG) is commanded by a Rear Admiral who generally resides on the carrier itself. He/she is in overall command of the entire Strike Group. He/she does not directly command the carrier itself - that is the responsibility of a Captain who is assigned command of the carrier.
Other elements of this CSG include:
* The Carrier Air Wing - the squadrons of aircraft stationed on the carrier. Overseen by the Commander Air Group (CAG) - Captain in rank;
* Guided missile cruisers - overseen by Captains;
* Destroyers - overseen by Captains;
* Submarine/s - overseen by Captains;
* Supply and logistics vessels - overseen by Captains.
The point of this description is as background for my take on the situation - my question is not why or how a ship should/should not be able to dispatch out for you to transfer command to. My question is why my other ships aren't out there with me in the first place. Am I an Admiral or not?
If not, and I am only effectively a Captain in terms of my power and authority in game, then why do I have a personal fleet of ships? I don't recall any of the starring Captains of the Star Trek franchise having a personal fleet of ships that they could change command to. Kirk stuck to the Enterprise, its refit, and its replacement when it sploded. Picard stuck to the -D for the entire TNG series, until it sploded and he got the -E. So on and so forth.
The point is Captains didn't jump from ship to ship in canon - they were assigned a command and they stuck to it. So as a ship captain, where do we get the mechanic of personal 'garages' of ships that we can jump to as we like? The only way that would be believable is if as Admirals we have a battlegroup assigned to our command, and that by nature involves the ships in that battlegroup travelling with us.
---
What I would suggest is, starting at Rear Admiral Lower (or equivalent - lvl 40):
* Unlocking extra ship slots for accompanying ships, using a similar or identical system to Boffs on ground missions;
* 1 or 2 initial extra ship slots unlocked at Rear Admiral Lower Half or equivalent rank (lvl 40);
* 1 or 2 extra ship slots per rank (not level) above lvl 40;
* Additional "Universal Captain Bridge Officer Station" added to each ship;
* Boffs promotable to Captain, and assigned as the captain of a particular ship in your group. That ship gains the Boff's abilities and AI;
* Each ship is staffed with its own complement of bridge officers optimised for that ship;
* You as Group Commander have overall authority and can set up and co-ordinate other ships (like the Boff commands in ground missions);
* You as Group Commander have direct control of your 'Flagship' (i.e. your selected ship, which functions as the lead ship in the group);
* You as Group Commander can transfer your flag to any of the ships in your group, and directly control that ship - This deals with the ship swapping issue;
---
If you wanted to keep starbases and social areas relevant, then perhaps you could place logistical limitations on ships in keeping with 'realism':
* limited shipboard supplies of Deuterium and Antimatter for your reactors, meaning a need to visit shipyards or starbases to 'refuel';
* limited numbers of torpedoes/consumables (can be bolstered by supply vessels, but even milk cows run out of juice as well - yes, I've read some of the arguments over this, it's just an idea here as part of a bigger picture);
* Make repair supplies (Components/regenerators) temporary, with a visit to shipyard/starbase required for permanent repairs.
Convenient and easy? Probably not. More complex and involved? Yeah, probably, but (for me at least) as a 3 pip Admiral it would be more believable and immersive.
Anyway, apologies for the long post, but that's just my take on it.
TL;DR: As an Admiral I'd rather have my ships out with me, then I could transfer my flag (i.e. switch ships) on the fly without having to 'call a ship from spacedock' or whatever...
This point of commanding multiple ships has been floating around since I started playing this game back in April 2013. I honestly don't think their servers can handle calling in other ships. That's why it hasn't been implemented yet.
I personally would love to have my JHDC as my flagship from which I command my:
Vesta, Muti-Vector Escort and my Mirror Star Cruiser. To me those 4 ships are the perfect fleet, because I have a ship from each class (well technically the Vesta is a science/escort hybrid).
There must be a lot of players that change ships a lot. Maybe the Dev's look at the server logs and notice this, so that's why they are implementing it. But,...for a long time many of us "Admirals" have been requesting that we command other ships (as all Admirals are expected to). The dev's must have though "Our server can't handle multiple ships, so we'll give them the ability to change ships on the fly. That's much easier for our servers to handle."
Just my 2 cents.
One day Cryptic will be free from their Perfect World overlord. Until that day comes, they will continue to pamper the whales of this game, and ignore everyone that isn't a whale.
I hope they do this, what's the point of being an Admiral when you can't command a fleet. Honestly this is the only space game I play where I don't have a fleet following me around in combat. It makes me feel more like a Lieutenant than an Admiral.
That was completely not the point of Star Trek. Star Trek has always been about the jorney and experiences of the Captian, his ship and his crew. About their adventures into the unknown.
Not about VADM Whoever and his space armada destined of destruction and devastation. The whole Admiral shtick is one of the dumbest missconceptions Cryptic has made so far and players have repeatedly said that it needs to be fixed because we as players should be Captains at max level.
When convenience becomes more important than the features of the game, those features no longer contribute anything worthwhile, they just sit there, in order to look pretty. If everything should be rendered irrelevant, because it is a hassle, then it comes down to the question of what this product is truly offering. A mindless ride, for the sake of convenience, inspired by other mindless rides, or some kind of virtual Star Trek exerience, adapted to the digital format, where you at least get a rudimentary impression of being *somewhere*.
Single player games have to make sense unto themselves in some fashion, the MMO is apparently above such petty notions. You can just put in anything there, and it will be accepted, as long as you can skip something. Like interacting with anything that stands between you, and the path of least resistance. That is a fine soup, without so much as a lump in it, and just as intriguing to taste. Please, enjoy your convenient ride, it will not have to last long, they will see to that. Time is of the essence, even more so than essence itself.
---
Very well said, you catched the essence of the things discussed here.
I don't disagree with the idea of changing ships in sector space.
What I do disagree with is it happening instantly or without a proper visual to give the change SOME immersion.
I would give it a cooldown of around 5 minutes and, when triggered, you'd get a quick cutscene of the ship you're changing to approaching your ship and a random audio blurb that says something like, "Good thing we happened to be in the sector. We're preparing to receive you and you command crew, Captain."
I don't disagree with the idea of changing ships in sector space.
What I do disagree with is it happening instantly or without a proper visual to give the change SOME immersion.
I would give it a cooldown of around 5 minutes and, when triggered, you'd get a quick cutscene of the ship you're changing to approaching your ship and a random audio blurb that says something like, "Good thing we happened to be in the sector. We're preparing to receive you and you command crew, Captain."
And then, bam, you're on the new ship.
If the cutscene is longer than a second, there would be complaints if it is not skippable. :P
Jokes aside, that would be the way to do it, if it had to be done. And it will be done, of course. I don't even know why we are talking about this. For they won't make anything that isn't planned, and they won't cancel what they have initiated, So saying nay, is like denying the next day. It is just a habit I guess?
So it seems that season 8.5 will give us the opportunity to change our starships in sector space. Good or bad? I say bad.
Being able to change your ship out of spacedock is bad for a number of reasons.
1) It further diminishes the believability of the game.
Yes, games require a person to suspend disbelief, but if something becomes more and more and more unbelievable it becomes a farce.
2) It's lazy and a form of instant gratification.
What is it with the need for instant gratification? I want my other ship NOW, DAMN IT!!! Didn't people get taught patience when they were younger? What's the next instant gratification, being able to call the Azura with no countdown? Then what? No cooldown on transwarp? Then what? Press a button to level up? Every time the game gets its challenges removed the less rewarding it becomes and the less people will play it. What's the point if there's nothing to work through/overcome/spend time doing?
3) It focuses more people in the areas that are deemed useful.
DS9 was a useful location as it was the only place where you could do STF stuff. Now it's a lot more quiet as there's no real need to be there. The need to go to spacedock will be greatly diminished, pushing more people in to other areas. What's next, putting a dabo table and latinum trader on ESD? That would make it so much more easier for those lazy people who want everything now but it would deaden Drozana and DS9 a little bit more. The less and less we need to travel to certain places to do things the lazier this game feels.
SOLUTION
Don't allow players to change ships in sector space. Make people travel to spacedock to do it. Whilst you're at it, start giving more importance to places that the player has to travel to. Give us reasons to actually go somewhere instead of giving us instant access to this mission or that resource. We need something for a mission or for crafting something? Make us work to get it. Product X can only be obtained from K7, item Y can only be crafted at DS9, task Z can only be initiated from Vulcan. After all, the easier the game gets the less interesting it becomes.
I know there will be people who disagree with my opinion but can we please have constructive responses instead of insults?
Preach on brother I agree 100% with you I remember joining this game back in 2010 and could not wait to be able to go to ds9. It seems all the social hubs are going down with your starbase done no need to go to any social hub at all
I think you should only be able to change ships at the current locations but I am glad they added your shuttle to your ship I can remember having to go to esd just to switch to a shuttle lol
So it seems that season 8.5 will give us the opportunity to change our starships in sector space. Good or bad? I say bad.
Being able to change your ship out of spacedock is bad for a number of reasons.
1) It further diminishes the believability of the game.
Yes, games require a person to suspend disbelief, but if something becomes more and more and more unbelievable it becomes a farce.
That's a pretty low bar for what diminishes believability given that so many accept the idea of an admiral can collect sophisticated interstellar ships the way Jay Leno collects cars.
2) It's lazy and a form of instant gratification.
What is it with the need for instant gratification? I want my other ship NOW, DAMN IT!!! Didn't people get taught patience when they were younger? What's the next instant gratification, being able to call the Azura with no countdown? Then what? No cooldown on transwarp? Then what? Press a button to level up? Every time the game gets its challenges removed the less rewarding it becomes and the less people will play it. What's the point if there's nothing to work through/overcome/spend time doing?
Yes, it's quite unreasonable to be impatient about waiting to traverse a distance that takes time with nothing eventful occurring in the mean time. What would you choose, given the option? Would you rather talk to a service rep on the phone instantly to get your problem fixed or have to wait because demanding otherwise would be lazy? Maybe, if you want to talk to a service rep, you should have to work for it?
3) It focuses more people in the areas that are deemed useful.
DS9 was a useful location as it was the only place where you could do STF stuff. Now it's a lot more quiet as there's no real need to be there. The need to go to spacedock will be greatly diminished, pushing more people in to other areas. What's next, putting a dabo table and latinum trader on ESD? That would make it so much more easier for those lazy people who want everything now but it would deaden Drozana and DS9 a little bit more. The less and less we need to travel to certain places to do things the lazier this game feels.
Of course it concentrates people in the areas that actually have something worth doing! Why would any sane person do something that is dull and a waste of time just to avoid being called lazy and seeking instant gratification.
SOLUTION
Don't allow players to change ships in sector space. Make people travel to spacedock to do it. Whilst you're at it, start giving more importance to places that the player has to travel to. Give us reasons to actually go somewhere instead of giving us instant access to this mission or that resource. We need something for a mission or for crafting something? Make us work to get it. Product X can only be obtained from K7, item Y can only be crafted at DS9, task Z can only be initiated from Vulcan. After all, the easier the game gets the less interesting it becomes.
No, making people do something they don't like so they can have something they do is not good game design. People play games to get away from that stuff, not have it forced on them. Life has a enough opportunities for us to do something we dislike because it's the path to get something we want. If it's that important for players to continue to use sector space, then sector space needs to be worth the time spent. Otherwise players will spend their time on things more worthwhile. Your solution is a contrived attempt at forcing players to do something that's against their own interest.
A better solution is to overhaul sector space into something people want to spend time on, not because you forced them to use it, but because it has its own merits. There needs to be something to do when you're in sector space (and I don't mean doffing) so that you actually want to be in sector space. Would the Elderscrolls have been as fun if there was nothing to do in the exterior world area but walk to the next cave/fort/tomb/ruin? Would you be begging for a way to skip the tedium of walking through a dull and uneventful world, just to get to the places that have actual game play? Thankfully, Bethesda took care of that by putting things to do and points of interest into the exterior world. Exploration is rewarded with finding new things to occupy your time.
So, one thing to do is give sector space activities/missions that attracts players, not force them down a certain path. How about a search and rescue? Travel to a sector and search for a lost ship, starting at its last known coordinates. You start with broad sweeps to get potential signals to investigate. Then, investigate each site with a more concentrated scan to identify the source. Eventually, you will find what you're looking for and drop out of warp to investigate the circumstances of the ship's distress. This could go a number of ways. It could be a trap, an invasion, an evacuation, or a mystery that requires some detective work. Or how about a little hide and seek hunting BoP and Warbirds in the neutral zone?
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The bottom line really is that STO is a 'game' and not a 'simulation'. Simulation level accuracy and reality are not the aim of this game. Entertainment is the aim of this game. It's the same with the TV series and movies. Regardless of the story or the characters or the technology in a medium, its base aim is entertainment - or else there is no real reason to interact with it. Why would I play a game if it is a more dreary slog than my real life job?
That being said, entertainment and fun come from many different sources. For some, it is immersion and realism - that compelling feeling of being a part of what you're doing and living out a virtual life like the characters seen in the book/show/movie/game. For others, it is a quick round of pew pew or a puzzle or just something silly, simple and fun. Think about why games like Angry Birds or Temple Run have done so well - it's just simple entertainment.
Having said all that, I would have to agree with donrah, and disagree with the OP. Nobody has the right to tell another player how to play a game. If Cryptic puts in sector space ship changes, what is that to anybody who doesn't want to use it? It becomes a useful feature to those who would use it - yes, including the impatient and lazy. So what? Things like 'entertaining', 'fun', 'immersive', 'realistic' and 'dumbed down' are all relative anyway. What one person considers 'dumbing the game down to a level that's beneath them' is making that game accessible to another - and each is equally legitimate.
Games are not about punishment or forced labour. They're about fun. If a feature is not fun to a particular person, then don't use it. Problem solved. But if it is fun to another player, and their use of it in no way hinders the person who doesn't use it, then what's the problem? It's simply a matter of choice, and in this case Cryptic are adding a measure of freedom of choice to their game. It would be different if they were removing shipyards and making sector space changes the only way to switch ships, but they aren't. That functionality is still there for people who use it.
At the end of the day I don't see the problem with it. It's a feature that will make the game more accessible and convenient for some, without forcing its use by those who don't want to use it. And even if it was only ever to be used by the so-called "impatient and lazy", so what? They have as much right to be here as anybody else.
Just my thoughts.
Somewhere on the wrong side of insanity.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately be explained by stupidity" ~ Robert Heinlein.
Great. When are we getting rid of level, money, & reputation grinding? I think it would be convenient for me to create a character starting at level 50 with Tier 5 reputations and free gear so I can just spec and outfit them immediately.
Great. When are we getting rid of level, money, & reputation grinding? I think it would be convenient for me to create a character starting at level 50 with Tier 5 reputations and free gear so I can just spec and outfit them immediately.
The day that Cryptic decides that they are of no further value in the game. As for your convenience, you - like me - are just one username among potentially millions, and many of those do like leveling their character or playing the exchange or going through the achievement process of reputation building... or whatever tickles their fancy. "The needs of the many..." Well, I'm assuming you know the rest. If enough players wanted it, and Cryptic saw benefit in allowing it, then one day it might happen. You never know.
Until then, if you don't like these features, then there's nothing forcing you to use them - some people never touch STFs; some people never touch ground missions; some people never PvP; some people never touch the Foundry. There's nothing saying you even have level your character - it's not mandatory. You could run around as a first rank character for your entire game career if you wanted. These features are not mandatory - beneficial, maybe, but not mandatory. Yet they are all still there and available at any time, for virtually any player. That's the point of freedom of choice.
There is a reason not everyone plays MMOs, and there's a reason just about every MMO has some kind of progression mechanism. It is a specific form of entertainment aimed at a specific group, and that's okay. If instant character development is a person's thing, then there are plenty of games out there that offer it.
Your expressed desire also potentially crosses a line - in my previous post I asserted that if a feature could be used by a player without disadvantaging another player, then it is of no consequence to the first. Would giving you the ability to do what you've (seemingly facetiously) asked for give you an advantage over other players? If so then it becomes an issue, as your convenience comes at a price to others. At a stretch I would say that perhaps the feature could be enabled for alts since you've already gone through the grind once, but that's about as far as I would go with it.
I for one did not originally play the game to level my character. I played the game - including the entire storyline of episodes from beginning to end - in order to experience the game and its story. Levelling up was incidental. Yeah I did the rep grind - when I felt like it. When I didn't feel like it I did something else. The point is it was always there when I wanted it, but I was never forced to use it. I could get away almost just as well with regular gear as I could with rep gear. Yet none of this was required for me to be able to play the game.
At the same time I fully utilised the new double rep sponsorship system on a couple of my characters - an excellent option given by Cryptic to allow us (if we choose) to reduce the rep grind on alts. And none of this is overly difficult or laborious anyway. Getting rep marks is a no-brainer, levelling is a no-brainer... it's not exactly a hard game to play.
At the end of the day, we're not talking about taking something out of the game anyway - we're talking about adding a feature that some feel we shouldn't have - for various reasons. I can sympathise with the genuine concerns, but at the end of the day it's just a game - the very fact that you can respawn after getting blown to Gre'thor dumbs it down to the point of being inconsequential. It's a game. Enjoy it for what it is.
As always, just my thoughts.
Somewhere on the wrong side of insanity.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately be explained by stupidity" ~ Robert Heinlein.
Until then, if you don't like these features, then there's nothing forcing you to use them - some people never touch STFs; some people never touch ground missions; some people never PvP; some people never touch the Foundry. There's nothing saying you even have level your character - it's not mandatory. You could run around as a first rank character for your entire game career if you wanted. These features are not mandatory - beneficial, maybe, but not mandatory. Yet they are all still there and available at any time, for virtually any player. That's the point of freedom of choice.
Nor is there anyone forcing me to change ships. I do it because I want to be in a different ship. Whether that ship is one I have already acquired or one that I have yet to acquire is irrelevant to the point that there is "punishment or forced labour" in the game's progression system, which I find inconvenient.
Nor is there anyone forcing me to change ships. I do it because I want to be in a different ship. Whether that ship is one I have already acquired or one that I have yet to acquire is irrelevant to the point that there is "punishment or forced labour" in the game's progression system, which I find inconvenient.
I'm not sure what response (if any) you're looking for. I think you possibly misinterpret what I mean by "punishment and forced labour", and apply it to something that I did not intend it to.
As the central topic, the debate is about whether players should have the convenience of switching ships in sector space, with the opening argument that players should be forced to stick with the existing mechanic of returning to a shipyard and switching there. My argument is that it is pointless to artificially limit this and force players to take this route when there is a potentially more convenient option available.
Its omission has no real measurable benefits, and its inclusion is not of any consequence to those who don't want to use it. Besides, without some kind of mission hub or something, social centres like ESD or DS9 are already pretty pointless - I can get everything I need from a fleet starbase or dilithium mine or embassy. I really have no need to ever visit any of them if I didn't want to, regardless of how often I switch ships. If that is bringing the game down, it's not due to being able to switch ships in sector space.
It sounds to me as if you're saying that character development, levelling and reputation building constitutes 'punishment and forced labour' to you. Whilst I understand where you're coming from, it is not the context I was using. I also find it a little odd considering the genre of game. This is an MMO. Progression and character development are at its core. That part of it is fundamental to the genre, so if somebody finds it to be 'punishment or forced labour'... well I don't know what else to say. I'm not going to tell anybody to go play another game, but it certainly puts the player in an unenviable situation.
Unfortunately I don't think you're going to find any satisfaction to that complaint any time in the near future. What you are asking would require Cryptic to fundamentally rewrite the entire game, and I don't think it's going to happen. They may add convenience and ease-of-play features from time to time, but this game - and the Star Trek IP in general - doesn't lend itself well to a plug and play FPS where you just jump in, load your rifle and go berserk. The whole premise of the game is progressing your character through the ranks of your chosen faction and building renown and reputation. Could it be streamlined for players with alt characters? Sure, within reason, but if you take away completely that core of developing your character's story, then you take away a lot of the content of the game. What's left after that?
I don't know if this addresses what you're trying to say or not, but I maintain that while some people may feel aspects of the game to be 'punishment or slave labour', it really isn't what the game is about. One way or another, it is meant to be entertaining and fun. If it stops being entertaining and fun for a player... well I personally wouldn't keep playing a game that I don't enjoy anymore.
As always, just my thoughts.
Somewhere on the wrong side of insanity.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately be explained by stupidity" ~ Robert Heinlein.
Well first of all this game is in need of a ui overhaul let's just get that out of the way right now. It's like using the beta ui from games in 1999 when people were making the very first mmo's. It's a fact that we all need to deal with.
Second, changing ships midspace isn't a bad thing, if you want that much immersion ask for them to have the option of doing it the hard way if you want but don't hold the rest of us back because you hate progress. Seriously it does nothing to help the game.
And finally, I find it funny that the same people who hate progress in the ui of games tend to often want the game to have no easy options for people to get around, or change gear, or even get gear. Exactly at what point in your lives do you decide "Hey, I think I'll make someone else's lives harder today so that I can make the universe the way I want it to be?" and what makes you think that this behavior is in any way like what the federation and starfleet is all about? I mean seriously? It's like those stingy fleets that are complaining they don't have enough people, well if you let people buy things you wouldn't have such a low number of members would you? smh...
Strange how it is "just a game" when the time comes to justify something, and how it is something more detailed in all other situations. Well, this is "just the internet", I guess. Nothing complex going on here.
This is a digital representation of a Star Trek themed world, adapted for the virtual environment consistent with that of a MMO, again adapted from pen and paper roleplaying games, as a branched out successor, in order to take advantage of new entertainment and media formats.
Yes this is about entertainment and not work, we get that. But changes should stick to the nature of what we are dealing with here. Not a simulation, not an arcade game. But something in-between, and yet very precise, if you look at how things are set up. This comes down to a like or dislike for the genre itself, and whether or not it should be transformed completely, in order to meet demands so very curiously ignoring the nature of the beast.
If anyone is confused about what a "simulator" is, think "Flight Sim", if anyone is confused about what a MMORPG is, think "alternate reality".
Even "otherworlds" come with their own set of rules and expectations. You can't just throw them out of the window, in order to conveniently hide the game format under the carpet. There better be a damn good reason, beyond a lazy "cultural exchange" between MMOs that obviously have forgotten what they are.
As the central topic, the debate is about whether players should have the convenience of switching ships in sector space, with the opening argument that players should be forced to stick with the existing mechanic of returning to a shipyard and switching there.
It's not the ship switching in space that causes me concern. As long as it is done with some degree of aesthetic consideration, I'm fine with it. If it is an instant change from a menu selection, then I would likely find that to be one more annoyance in a game that is full of annoyances.
What I was looking for in your response is some recognition of the hypocrisy in the justifications used to dismiss those people who do have an issue with sector space ship swapping. The following quote being another example.
My argument is that it is pointless to artificially limit this and force players to take this route when there is a potentially more convenient option available.
The argument I'm loving is "Don't tell me how to play the game".
Imagine someone suggests that people should be able to press a button and level up to level 50. Another player says that shouldn't really be a feature of the game.
"Don't tell me how to play the game. You don't have to do it if you don't want to."
Anything that makes managing boff slots and builds more pleasant is very welcome. As for immersion breaking, there is already so much like that in game and this is relatively minor. Please get over it.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Anything that makes managing boff slots and builds more pleasant is very welcome. As for immersion breaking, there is already so much like that in game and this is relatively minor. Please get over it.
All I know is it takes no time to transwarp to get other ship ? It's easy you go in to shipyard mingle for a minute and Hey You Still Will have to go there to change colors/design and HEAL STILL ? Errrrrr so oh I might want to buy pets I gotta go there woo doesn't seem to bother me at all , since it takes so long to Queue everything I got time to burn all the time , maybe fix que speed lmao!! Anyway I shire as he'll have never seen anything in or out of Star Trek that will allow you to imediately change your ship by carting your garage of ships on the rear of your ship , that's what is cool nowadays gee wow today's whinning society already out ways the elite of elite that understand logical neat cool ideas versus dumb ideas like this which makes game feel cheap and corners are being cut to satisfy ? Whiners ? I Don't get stupid ideas is all !! Maybe I can get my camera view from switching to follow instead of my setting I choose to have my free camera view not mess up hundreds or thousands of times instead of this ? Or fix transwarp with A timer on it to use it all up in 2 sectors like it was until season 7 ? Or fix the wardrobe so I can use my 5 other costumes slots I bought that I can't use ? Or the exchange has worst search find procedure of all games I play, it's always messing up ! What about the Foundry or Forge they need help more than this lame ship transfer junk ?? Lmao what is the guys at office thinking ?? Ship colors have don't work for all ships ? That promised us ship interiors to actually match ships? This was like season 4 or 5 ? Why do I need ships on my back when my ship trays get all messed up time to time as much as other players on team beaming in ? Fix this first ; then maybe leave shipyard in shipyard lol and give us ship setups that save so we can have multiple builds on all ships and that will save us all more time from dragging converting all gear over to ships or shuttles Versus the time to just to beam to shipyard ? Please you logic behind stupidity pleas that's all I beg of you at headquarters not to kill game with wasted dumb ideas versus allll the other real cool things trek can truly give us with the game being made to simple and easy all it is is basically making it a cheap feeling unreal space adventure they keep passing other issues more important than this cheap glamour convienence that really does nothing but lil time and a higherr probability to make game have more mechanical failure nuff said ) shaking my head and wondering what I.Q.'s they have or who they actually get there ideas from while eating lunch ? because it's not that smart and that all at cryptic should read all comments in general forum for all our better ideas when the appear instead of not listening to major trek community that actually cares and writes actual great fantastic ideas :here on forums ) maybe they need to get paid from boss to read the forums to make there ideas work right/better and take the credit for themselves maybe all will work for the best that way. Please no more catering to idiots and make some game content for elite players in game and let everyone else earn something like elite status abilities not just hand stuff so easily to noobs that been here 1 month and elites that feel no real love and all the time for hard work ? Maybe a que for elites needs to be made seperate from everyone else because I still get stuck with rookies in all my stf queues that are supposed to be matching my abilities and level which was supposed to be fixed? How many things I seen in patch notes like FAw/wardrobe/more needs fixing we know of this issue then bam like so many other things in patch notes a few more go by nothing gets fixed and they remove it from patch notes like it's fixed and we never see or hear from it again until someday maybe if lucky they actually do fix it. Promises mean nothing ! Action speaks louder than words ! And trust is earned by trust and example ! Not hot air.
Comments
I like that link. It says You said that if we allow A to happen, then Z will eventually happen too, therefore A should not happen.
In the case of certain zones being made more and more redundant I think a new slippery-slope type is required.
Midway down the slippery-slope - "When a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h and i have occurred it is reasonable to assume that j will be next. We should really try to stop at j"
I think this is more accurate for this scenario.
False dilemma and slippery slope in one post.
False dilemma in that you seem to be perceiving only two possibilities, and are certainly presenting only two possibilities. In reality, the "amendment" which you favor is only one of several things that could be done. The lengthy post by darramouss1 to which I replied just a few posts ago offers other proposed modifications. The point is that almost any question has at least three answers. This sort of thinking in "Black Or White And No Other Options" is one of the several reasons why I contend that we need three full factions in game, to discourage such limited and limiting approaches to everything. Dualism stinks, because it seeks to limit everything to two and only two options -- it seeks to limit the unlimited (thought, imagination, creativity).
Slippery slope in that you have stated, in no uncertain terms, but a definite conditional statement, that If X then Y, without showing any reason to believe the truth of that proposition. Your slippery slope appears to be an unwarranted assumption, a bit of hyperbole, an attempt at fear-mongering, or a belief in the infallibility of your divinatory powers.
I hope they do this, what's the point of being an Admiral when you can't command a fleet. Honestly this is the only space game I play where I don't have a fleet following me around in combat. It makes me feel more like a Lieutenant than an Admiral.
ships on the fly - however with limitations you can already do that on the shuttle bridge now... So it changes from a choice of two ships to a choice between all of your ships.
From a believability and immersion factor, what I find more ridiculous is a three-pip Admiral in the captain's chair of a single starship. No, this game is not based on real military structure, but consider this scenario:
A United States Navy Carrier Strike Group (CSG) is commanded by a Rear Admiral who generally resides on the carrier itself. He/she is in overall command of the entire Strike Group. He/she does not directly command the carrier itself - that is the responsibility of a Captain who is assigned command of the carrier.
Other elements of this CSG include:
* The Carrier Air Wing - the squadrons of aircraft stationed on the carrier. Overseen by the Commander Air Group (CAG) - Captain in rank;
* Guided missile cruisers - overseen by Captains;
* Destroyers - overseen by Captains;
* Submarine/s - overseen by Captains;
* Supply and logistics vessels - overseen by Captains.
The point of this description is as background for my take on the situation - my question is not why or how a ship should/should not be able to dispatch out for you to transfer command to. My question is why my other ships aren't out there with me in the first place. Am I an Admiral or not?
If not, and I am only effectively a Captain in terms of my power and authority in game, then why do I have a personal fleet of ships? I don't recall any of the starring Captains of the Star Trek franchise having a personal fleet of ships that they could change command to. Kirk stuck to the Enterprise, its refit, and its replacement when it sploded. Picard stuck to the -D for the entire TNG series, until it sploded and he got the -E. So on and so forth.
The point is Captains didn't jump from ship to ship in canon - they were assigned a command and they stuck to it. So as a ship captain, where do we get the mechanic of personal 'garages' of ships that we can jump to as we like? The only way that would be believable is if as Admirals we have a battlegroup assigned to our command, and that by nature involves the ships in that battlegroup travelling with us.
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What I would suggest is, starting at Rear Admiral Lower (or equivalent - lvl 40):
* Unlocking extra ship slots for accompanying ships, using a similar or identical system to Boffs on ground missions;
* 1 or 2 initial extra ship slots unlocked at Rear Admiral Lower Half or equivalent rank (lvl 40);
* 1 or 2 extra ship slots per rank (not level) above lvl 40;
* Additional "Universal Captain Bridge Officer Station" added to each ship;
* Boffs promotable to Captain, and assigned as the captain of a particular ship in your group. That ship gains the Boff's abilities and AI;
* Each ship is staffed with its own complement of bridge officers optimised for that ship;
* You as Group Commander have overall authority and can set up and co-ordinate other ships (like the Boff commands in ground missions);
* You as Group Commander have direct control of your 'Flagship' (i.e. your selected ship, which functions as the lead ship in the group);
* You as Group Commander can transfer your flag to any of the ships in your group, and directly control that ship - This deals with the ship swapping issue;
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If you wanted to keep starbases and social areas relevant, then perhaps you could place logistical limitations on ships in keeping with 'realism':
* limited shipboard supplies of Deuterium and Antimatter for your reactors, meaning a need to visit shipyards or starbases to 'refuel';
* limited numbers of torpedoes/consumables (can be bolstered by supply vessels, but even milk cows run out of juice as well - yes, I've read some of the arguments over this, it's just an idea here as part of a bigger picture);
* Make repair supplies (Components/regenerators) temporary, with a visit to shipyard/starbase required for permanent repairs.
Convenient and easy? Probably not. More complex and involved? Yeah, probably, but (for me at least) as a 3 pip Admiral it would be more believable and immersive.
Anyway, apologies for the long post, but that's just my take on it.
TL;DR: As an Admiral I'd rather have my ships out with me, then I could transfer my flag (i.e. switch ships) on the fly without having to 'call a ship from spacedock' or whatever...
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately be explained by stupidity" ~ Robert Heinlein.
It's easy for us to tell them what we would like to see, as well as pass judgement on how things should be introduced or implemented into the game. However, we must also realize that with thousands of players, there is an astronomical chance that we would all agree on a new feature or content. For a player to get upset at a new addition is not productive, nor is it conducive to your own experience.
If I want to transfer my flag in-space rather than go back to Space Dock, then great, the functionality is there. If I want to stick to my old ways and trek back to Space Dock, then I can keep on trekking the old-fashioned way.
By no means am I calling out anyone, nor am I being presumptuous in trying to dictate what the devs add to the game, or how the additions should function. My only point is that we can offer ideas to developers in a professional and courteous manner, and give feedback on the way features operate so they may make updates or edits to gameplay. If there's a feature/function I don't like, I just don't use it. If I convince myself to change my experience, there's a way to do so with STO. Content is always changing, and with the Foundry, it's easy to find ways to get new content on my own.
I'm proud to call myself a fan and player of the game, and I hope that I can do so for a very long time.
William Thomas Flannery - Blue Company - Bravo Team Leader
U.S.S. Coos Bay
Fleet - Directive 010, United Federation Of Planets
=/\= =========================== =/\=
The Ship-Change is IMHO not that important, most ppl stick to one ship and only change them from time to time. Maybe an 1-2 hour CD would be an idea with the space/friendly area change.
Best would be 3 different ship/skill sets you can choose from - so ship and skill selection is bonded. Like Escort with full dps skilling as set 1, set 2 with a cruiser and tank set, set 3 with a cruiser just for the heck of it. Or a special anti-borg set 1, anti-vorth set 2 and anti-crystal set 3
No cooldown, no limiting to friendly space, no limited number of torpedoes, no refueling, no to any other pointless hassle. Holy TRIBBLE. "Let's get rid of one mind-numbingly pointless and time-consuming hassle and add 15 more!" No, and not even "No, thank you," just "No." Sheesh. Games are supposed to be fun, an escape from the tedium of real life, rather than just another manifestation of tedium.
The onlyreason I generally stick to one ship is because "Lock Skill Tray," which should save your build already, does not, so that each time I change my ship, I have to rearrange things on my skill tray, sometimes reassign BOffs to stations, etc.
To many of us, Immersion = Fun.
This is after all an MMORPG, not an Arcade Game.
Single player games have to make sense unto themselves in some fashion, the MMO is apparently above such petty notions. You can just put in anything there, and it will be accepted, as long as you can skip something. Like interacting with anything that stands between you, and the path of least resistance. That is a fine soup, without so much as a lump in it, and just as intriguing to taste. Please, enjoy your convenient ride, it will not have to last long, they will see to that. Time is of the essence, even more so than essence itself.
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I enjoy immersion. I don't enjoy tasks for the sake of tasks, which serve no purpose other than time consumption or pacifying someone who claims they are needed for "immersion." Again, does your character ever take a sonic shower? Sleep? Go to the powder room? Have to eat and/or drink? If your imagination is so weak, then the addition of time-consuming and needless activities isn't going to improve your sense of "immersion."
Microcosmos vs. macrocosmos. This is not "The Sims" for sure. Not "Space Invaders" either. The very detailed vs. the very abstracted. Tasks for the sake of tasks, convenience for the sake of convenience. Are these not the extremes? We just need to stay in the Goldilocks Zone. That is all.
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This point of commanding multiple ships has been floating around since I started playing this game back in April 2013. I honestly don't think their servers can handle calling in other ships. That's why it hasn't been implemented yet.
I personally would love to have my JHDC as my flagship from which I command my:
Vesta, Muti-Vector Escort and my Mirror Star Cruiser. To me those 4 ships are the perfect fleet, because I have a ship from each class (well technically the Vesta is a science/escort hybrid).
There must be a lot of players that change ships a lot. Maybe the Dev's look at the server logs and notice this, so that's why they are implementing it. But,...for a long time many of us "Admirals" have been requesting that we command other ships (as all Admirals are expected to). The dev's must have though "Our server can't handle multiple ships, so we'll give them the ability to change ships on the fly. That's much easier for our servers to handle."
Just my 2 cents.
That was completely not the point of Star Trek. Star Trek has always been about the jorney and experiences of the Captian, his ship and his crew. About their adventures into the unknown.
Not about VADM Whoever and his space armada destined of destruction and devastation. The whole Admiral shtick is one of the dumbest missconceptions Cryptic has made so far and players have repeatedly said that it needs to be fixed because we as players should be Captains at max level.
Very well said, you catched the essence of the things discussed here.
What I do disagree with is it happening instantly or without a proper visual to give the change SOME immersion.
I would give it a cooldown of around 5 minutes and, when triggered, you'd get a quick cutscene of the ship you're changing to approaching your ship and a random audio blurb that says something like, "Good thing we happened to be in the sector. We're preparing to receive you and you command crew, Captain."
And then, bam, you're on the new ship.
If the cutscene is longer than a second, there would be complaints if it is not skippable. :P
Jokes aside, that would be the way to do it, if it had to be done. And it will be done, of course. I don't even know why we are talking about this. For they won't make anything that isn't planned, and they won't cancel what they have initiated, So saying nay, is like denying the next day. It is just a habit I guess?
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Preach on brother I agree 100% with you I remember joining this game back in 2010 and could not wait to be able to go to ds9. It seems all the social hubs are going down with your starbase done no need to go to any social hub at all
I think you should only be able to change ships at the current locations but I am glad they added your shuttle to your ship I can remember having to go to esd just to switch to a shuttle lol
That's a pretty low bar for what diminishes believability given that so many accept the idea of an admiral can collect sophisticated interstellar ships the way Jay Leno collects cars.
Yes, it's quite unreasonable to be impatient about waiting to traverse a distance that takes time with nothing eventful occurring in the mean time. What would you choose, given the option? Would you rather talk to a service rep on the phone instantly to get your problem fixed or have to wait because demanding otherwise would be lazy? Maybe, if you want to talk to a service rep, you should have to work for it?
Of course it concentrates people in the areas that actually have something worth doing! Why would any sane person do something that is dull and a waste of time just to avoid being called lazy and seeking instant gratification.
No, making people do something they don't like so they can have something they do is not good game design. People play games to get away from that stuff, not have it forced on them. Life has a enough opportunities for us to do something we dislike because it's the path to get something we want. If it's that important for players to continue to use sector space, then sector space needs to be worth the time spent. Otherwise players will spend their time on things more worthwhile. Your solution is a contrived attempt at forcing players to do something that's against their own interest.
A better solution is to overhaul sector space into something people want to spend time on, not because you forced them to use it, but because it has its own merits. There needs to be something to do when you're in sector space (and I don't mean doffing) so that you actually want to be in sector space. Would the Elderscrolls have been as fun if there was nothing to do in the exterior world area but walk to the next cave/fort/tomb/ruin? Would you be begging for a way to skip the tedium of walking through a dull and uneventful world, just to get to the places that have actual game play? Thankfully, Bethesda took care of that by putting things to do and points of interest into the exterior world. Exploration is rewarded with finding new things to occupy your time.
So, one thing to do is give sector space activities/missions that attracts players, not force them down a certain path. How about a search and rescue? Travel to a sector and search for a lost ship, starting at its last known coordinates. You start with broad sweeps to get potential signals to investigate. Then, investigate each site with a more concentrated scan to identify the source. Eventually, you will find what you're looking for and drop out of warp to investigate the circumstances of the ship's distress. This could go a number of ways. It could be a trap, an invasion, an evacuation, or a mystery that requires some detective work. Or how about a little hide and seek hunting BoP and Warbirds in the neutral zone?
That being said, entertainment and fun come from many different sources. For some, it is immersion and realism - that compelling feeling of being a part of what you're doing and living out a virtual life like the characters seen in the book/show/movie/game. For others, it is a quick round of pew pew or a puzzle or just something silly, simple and fun. Think about why games like Angry Birds or Temple Run have done so well - it's just simple entertainment.
Having said all that, I would have to agree with donrah, and disagree with the OP. Nobody has the right to tell another player how to play a game. If Cryptic puts in sector space ship changes, what is that to anybody who doesn't want to use it? It becomes a useful feature to those who would use it - yes, including the impatient and lazy. So what? Things like 'entertaining', 'fun', 'immersive', 'realistic' and 'dumbed down' are all relative anyway. What one person considers 'dumbing the game down to a level that's beneath them' is making that game accessible to another - and each is equally legitimate.
Games are not about punishment or forced labour. They're about fun. If a feature is not fun to a particular person, then don't use it. Problem solved. But if it is fun to another player, and their use of it in no way hinders the person who doesn't use it, then what's the problem? It's simply a matter of choice, and in this case Cryptic are adding a measure of freedom of choice to their game. It would be different if they were removing shipyards and making sector space changes the only way to switch ships, but they aren't. That functionality is still there for people who use it.
At the end of the day I don't see the problem with it. It's a feature that will make the game more accessible and convenient for some, without forcing its use by those who don't want to use it. And even if it was only ever to be used by the so-called "impatient and lazy", so what? They have as much right to be here as anybody else.
Just my thoughts.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately be explained by stupidity" ~ Robert Heinlein.
Great. When are we getting rid of level, money, & reputation grinding? I think it would be convenient for me to create a character starting at level 50 with Tier 5 reputations and free gear so I can just spec and outfit them immediately.
The day that Cryptic decides that they are of no further value in the game. As for your convenience, you - like me - are just one username among potentially millions, and many of those do like leveling their character or playing the exchange or going through the achievement process of reputation building... or whatever tickles their fancy. "The needs of the many..." Well, I'm assuming you know the rest. If enough players wanted it, and Cryptic saw benefit in allowing it, then one day it might happen. You never know.
Until then, if you don't like these features, then there's nothing forcing you to use them - some people never touch STFs; some people never touch ground missions; some people never PvP; some people never touch the Foundry. There's nothing saying you even have level your character - it's not mandatory. You could run around as a first rank character for your entire game career if you wanted. These features are not mandatory - beneficial, maybe, but not mandatory. Yet they are all still there and available at any time, for virtually any player. That's the point of freedom of choice.
There is a reason not everyone plays MMOs, and there's a reason just about every MMO has some kind of progression mechanism. It is a specific form of entertainment aimed at a specific group, and that's okay. If instant character development is a person's thing, then there are plenty of games out there that offer it.
Your expressed desire also potentially crosses a line - in my previous post I asserted that if a feature could be used by a player without disadvantaging another player, then it is of no consequence to the first. Would giving you the ability to do what you've (seemingly facetiously) asked for give you an advantage over other players? If so then it becomes an issue, as your convenience comes at a price to others. At a stretch I would say that perhaps the feature could be enabled for alts since you've already gone through the grind once, but that's about as far as I would go with it.
I for one did not originally play the game to level my character. I played the game - including the entire storyline of episodes from beginning to end - in order to experience the game and its story. Levelling up was incidental. Yeah I did the rep grind - when I felt like it. When I didn't feel like it I did something else. The point is it was always there when I wanted it, but I was never forced to use it. I could get away almost just as well with regular gear as I could with rep gear. Yet none of this was required for me to be able to play the game.
At the same time I fully utilised the new double rep sponsorship system on a couple of my characters - an excellent option given by Cryptic to allow us (if we choose) to reduce the rep grind on alts. And none of this is overly difficult or laborious anyway. Getting rep marks is a no-brainer, levelling is a no-brainer... it's not exactly a hard game to play.
At the end of the day, we're not talking about taking something out of the game anyway - we're talking about adding a feature that some feel we shouldn't have - for various reasons. I can sympathise with the genuine concerns, but at the end of the day it's just a game - the very fact that you can respawn after getting blown to Gre'thor dumbs it down to the point of being inconsequential. It's a game. Enjoy it for what it is.
As always, just my thoughts.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately be explained by stupidity" ~ Robert Heinlein.
Nor is there anyone forcing me to change ships. I do it because I want to be in a different ship. Whether that ship is one I have already acquired or one that I have yet to acquire is irrelevant to the point that there is "punishment or forced labour" in the game's progression system, which I find inconvenient.
I'm not sure what response (if any) you're looking for. I think you possibly misinterpret what I mean by "punishment and forced labour", and apply it to something that I did not intend it to.
As the central topic, the debate is about whether players should have the convenience of switching ships in sector space, with the opening argument that players should be forced to stick with the existing mechanic of returning to a shipyard and switching there. My argument is that it is pointless to artificially limit this and force players to take this route when there is a potentially more convenient option available.
Its omission has no real measurable benefits, and its inclusion is not of any consequence to those who don't want to use it. Besides, without some kind of mission hub or something, social centres like ESD or DS9 are already pretty pointless - I can get everything I need from a fleet starbase or dilithium mine or embassy. I really have no need to ever visit any of them if I didn't want to, regardless of how often I switch ships. If that is bringing the game down, it's not due to being able to switch ships in sector space.
It sounds to me as if you're saying that character development, levelling and reputation building constitutes 'punishment and forced labour' to you. Whilst I understand where you're coming from, it is not the context I was using. I also find it a little odd considering the genre of game. This is an MMO. Progression and character development are at its core. That part of it is fundamental to the genre, so if somebody finds it to be 'punishment or forced labour'... well I don't know what else to say. I'm not going to tell anybody to go play another game, but it certainly puts the player in an unenviable situation.
Unfortunately I don't think you're going to find any satisfaction to that complaint any time in the near future. What you are asking would require Cryptic to fundamentally rewrite the entire game, and I don't think it's going to happen. They may add convenience and ease-of-play features from time to time, but this game - and the Star Trek IP in general - doesn't lend itself well to a plug and play FPS where you just jump in, load your rifle and go berserk. The whole premise of the game is progressing your character through the ranks of your chosen faction and building renown and reputation. Could it be streamlined for players with alt characters? Sure, within reason, but if you take away completely that core of developing your character's story, then you take away a lot of the content of the game. What's left after that?
I don't know if this addresses what you're trying to say or not, but I maintain that while some people may feel aspects of the game to be 'punishment or slave labour', it really isn't what the game is about. One way or another, it is meant to be entertaining and fun. If it stops being entertaining and fun for a player... well I personally wouldn't keep playing a game that I don't enjoy anymore.
As always, just my thoughts.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately be explained by stupidity" ~ Robert Heinlein.
Second, changing ships midspace isn't a bad thing, if you want that much immersion ask for them to have the option of doing it the hard way if you want but don't hold the rest of us back because you hate progress. Seriously it does nothing to help the game.
And finally, I find it funny that the same people who hate progress in the ui of games tend to often want the game to have no easy options for people to get around, or change gear, or even get gear. Exactly at what point in your lives do you decide "Hey, I think I'll make someone else's lives harder today so that I can make the universe the way I want it to be?" and what makes you think that this behavior is in any way like what the federation and starfleet is all about? I mean seriously? It's like those stingy fleets that are complaining they don't have enough people, well if you let people buy things you wouldn't have such a low number of members would you? smh...
This is a digital representation of a Star Trek themed world, adapted for the virtual environment consistent with that of a MMO, again adapted from pen and paper roleplaying games, as a branched out successor, in order to take advantage of new entertainment and media formats.
Yes this is about entertainment and not work, we get that. But changes should stick to the nature of what we are dealing with here. Not a simulation, not an arcade game. But something in-between, and yet very precise, if you look at how things are set up. This comes down to a like or dislike for the genre itself, and whether or not it should be transformed completely, in order to meet demands so very curiously ignoring the nature of the beast.
If anyone is confused about what a "simulator" is, think "Flight Sim", if anyone is confused about what a MMORPG is, think "alternate reality".
Even "otherworlds" come with their own set of rules and expectations. You can't just throw them out of the window, in order to conveniently hide the game format under the carpet. There better be a damn good reason, beyond a lazy "cultural exchange" between MMOs that obviously have forgotten what they are.
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It's not the ship switching in space that causes me concern. As long as it is done with some degree of aesthetic consideration, I'm fine with it. If it is an instant change from a menu selection, then I would likely find that to be one more annoyance in a game that is full of annoyances.
What I was looking for in your response is some recognition of the hypocrisy in the justifications used to dismiss those people who do have an issue with sector space ship swapping. The following quote being another example.
Imagine someone suggests that people should be able to press a button and level up to level 50. Another player says that shouldn't really be a feature of the game.
"Don't tell me how to play the game. You don't have to do it if you don't want to."
- Judge Aaron Satie
All I know is it takes no time to transwarp to get other ship ? It's easy you go in to shipyard mingle for a minute and Hey You Still Will have to go there to change colors/design and HEAL STILL ? Errrrrr so oh I might want to buy pets I gotta go there woo doesn't seem to bother me at all , since it takes so long to Queue everything I got time to burn all the time , maybe fix que speed lmao!! Anyway I shire as he'll have never seen anything in or out of Star Trek that will allow you to imediately change your ship by carting your garage of ships on the rear of your ship , that's what is cool nowadays gee wow today's whinning society already out ways the elite of elite that understand logical neat cool ideas versus dumb ideas like this which makes game feel cheap and corners are being cut to satisfy ? Whiners ? I Don't get stupid ideas is all !! Maybe I can get my camera view from switching to follow instead of my setting I choose to have my free camera view not mess up hundreds or thousands of times instead of this ? Or fix transwarp with A timer on it to use it all up in 2 sectors like it was until season 7 ? Or fix the wardrobe so I can use my 5 other costumes slots I bought that I can't use ? Or the exchange has worst search find procedure of all games I play, it's always messing up ! What about the Foundry or Forge they need help more than this lame ship transfer junk ?? Lmao what is the guys at office thinking ?? Ship colors have don't work for all ships ? That promised us ship interiors to actually match ships? This was like season 4 or 5 ? Why do I need ships on my back when my ship trays get all messed up time to time as much as other players on team beaming in ? Fix this first ; then maybe leave shipyard in shipyard lol and give us ship setups that save so we can have multiple builds on all ships and that will save us all more time from dragging converting all gear over to ships or shuttles Versus the time to just to beam to shipyard ? Please you logic behind stupidity pleas that's all I beg of you at headquarters not to kill game with wasted dumb ideas versus allll the other real cool things trek can truly give us