So a little bit of scaling that doesn't meet your precious approval completely breaks the immersion of the game while as the nature of scaling is fine just how you want it done. Interesting.
Changing ships at ESD is already a part of the game. Taking things out of a game is always a surefire way to upset a great deal of people, so I wouldn't dream of discussing any alterations that would slow down that process. I am discussing this new ship changing before it gets released so that if it does get changed, it will be changed before it's released, not released and then retracted.
Why did I answer your question, then? Because you seem adamant to have it answered as you asked it more than once and directed it to me. I answered out of courtesy.
In regards to your response to my answer, please read this before you comment on my thoughts on immersion. I didn't quote it as the quotes from that post wouldn't have shown up.
Your opinion differs from mine but I appreciate your thought out position. I do agree that there are already bits of the game that have slid, I suppose I'm trying to prevent further slippage. In either case I appreciate you (and everyone in this thread) discussing points instead of abusing.
I own a Tuffli, I got it shortly after they came out. It WAS a unique ship in the game by having Crafting as well as the ship selector. Then the Cell Ship was released and what made the Tuffli Unique was Given to the Cell. Now the ship selector is going to everyone, this is I think a good idea. (Even though I hate to admit it!) Now the only reasons to own a Tuffli or a Cell is the Crafting, Full interrior on a Tuffli or the Tua Dewa Doff mission on a Cell. neither of which is really worth it. Maybe the Bank and Mail access is, MAYBE. At This point Im Glad I sold my Cell ship when I got it.
Don't forget the commodities. Since I have a Cell Ship on my KDF-allied Romulan, I no longer have to put EC in the account bank, switch to my Vulcan, and go to Vulcan to get the best price on Industrial Energy Cells, nor fly around the galaxy to various vendors in far-flung places in order to get the best prices on other commodities.
I disagree. If done right, you can tell coherent stories without slogging through hours of useless, unstreamlined actions. And I'm only half-exaggerating. Having played MMOs for 14 years now, there have been many moments where I've thought "Why are they making me do this?"
I'm actually a bit surprised that you find anything in STO to be slow, if you have played since EQ or UO. Can't argue about not having time to play. But still. What about world coherency? Shortcuts turn everything into a lobby, from where you teleport. Simulating a whole world or universe becomes meaningless. For you need not go there.
But we're not basing our thoughts on modern day military examples. We're basing our examples on Star Trek, the IP that Star Trek Online is based on. The IP that isn't militarily based.
Why would things become more difficult with the advent of more advanced technology?
To those complaining that this topic does not deserve its own thread: The other thread is about how being able to change ships in sector space is a bad idea. This thread, however, is about how being able to change ships in sector space is a good idea. Thus, they are radically different topics.
If not, then ALL threads about DPS should be combined into one, all threads about bridge officer powers should be combined into one, and so on and so on.
I personally think that allowing people to change ships in sector space is a good idea. There is absolutely nothing unrealistic about having a new ship fly to a location to pick up its captain.
Logically speaking, they're the same thread topic. One is affirming proposition X, while the other is denying proposition X.
I have more concern over the merging of the thread I chose to post in (the one talking about saving builds) with this one debating the merits of changing ships in sector space, although I myself mentioned that in the thread I chose to post in. Now in order to continue the discussion in which I chose to participate, I must participate in this discussion as well, which I've been doing this evening, although I intentionally did not post in this discussion earlier, despite having read some of it.
IF your worried about immersion it doesn't mean you have to switch ships in space YOU can still goto the spacedock to change YOUR ships YOU don't have use the feature. But I am one who is looking forward to this feature. It boils down to if YOU don't like it you don't have to use it. Play YOUR game how you like and let others play how they want.
Players are making a judgement on something that has yet to be implemented and are making judgement that at this moment in time is something only on paper. Until it is implented into the game, can we only then make a rational decision whether or not being able to switch ships is a bad idea.
None of know EXACTLY how it is going to work, until then, when it is operational ingame then can we all decide.
Right there with you on the sentiment. I actually find it rather hilarious that after being very insulting by basically calling those who like the addition (I can care less one way or another) lazy, the OP then proceeds to request that responses not be insulting. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.
Realistically in terms of Star Trek, we should all only really be allowed 1 primary ship per character and a few shuttles. I don't recall any Captains on the show switching ships when they felt like it, once you hit end game you should only be allowed 1 ship, don't like it, then you have to work for another.
This game is so far from being Star Trek it's not funny.
It's not about immersion and it's not about telling people how to play the game. It's about protecting the game and preventing it from being damaged by dumbed-down mechanics that will lead to further dumbed-down mechanics.
People who are accusing others of telling them how to play the game are either not grasping the message we're trying to deliver or they're just outright refusing to.
I think it's more that we think that your "message" is full of TRIBBLE, personally.
I get that you're butthurt over this, and I understand your reasons for that position. I simply don't agree with your conclusion.
I am a long-time RPer, as in going back to AD&D 1st edition in the late 70s, when the hardcover books were just starting to come out (the rules had already been published in The Dragon before they were published in hardcover books, fyi). I adore RP. I love immersion, but I also believe that total immersion is impossible (more on this below). I am also a long-time gamer, having worked in the industry, coding, modifying games in which it was permitted, doing customer service, and assorted other things. And before you make any assumptions about how long I've been playing STO based on my forum "Join Date" and attempt to use that to dismiss what I have to say about this game, I'll nip that in the bud by stating for the record that that date is incorrect as relates to my game join date; I just didn't post anything in the fora before May of 2013.
What you call "dumbing down" I call "removing largely irrelevant hassles and increasing player options." If you like those hassles, then you don't have to use the feature, simple as that. But trying to spoil it for those who would rather not have to deal with those hassles is in fact you trying to tell the rest of us how we should play, indeed, even trying to have your preferences enforced on the rest of us by the code of the game.
Total immersion, as I said above, is impossible. When was the last time your character had to have a sonic shower? Does your character sleep? Go to the powder room to eliminate waste? Get sick? Do you experience any physical sensation when your character gets hit with a disruptor blast? Does your room, or even chair, rock around when your ship gets hit with torpedoes? Do you have three dimensional 360? perspective limited to what is in the game, with all external stimuli blocked out? Can you tell me what a Comet Cocktail tastes like? Does it quench your thirst? How about a mug of Bloodwine (and wouldn't that be something that non-Klingons would be unable to consume anyway, according to hard canon)? What does it feel like to beam in/out with a transporter? You want total, realistic immersion? Invent a holosuite (and even then, you're going to have limitations as to how realistic and immersive it can be, even if you disable the safety protocols).
You make a very valid point, however popular opinion doesn't always make the best decision. I'm sure that if everyone had the ability to choose to not pay taxes then the country would shut down in days..
Everyone does have the ability to choose whether or not to pay taxes. They may not like the consequences, though.
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STO Forum member since before February 2010. STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
I think this is a great idea. Im glad to see someone has good viewpoints on which to improve Earth Spacedock especially in relation to the lower levels.
I always prefered the old Earth Spacedock map having re-visited it recentley via the foundry.
Granted there were some well thought through improvements, for example the transporter room which replaced a "Beam In" point.
With some of the maps Cryptic makes for ground use they usualy are not big enough to convey a more accurate representation of possible scale of the interior space of a model.
I mean when walking around the interior of ESD you don't feel you are in the largest and strategically most important Starbase in the Federation space. If the map was doubled or even tripled in size that would be a massive improvement to whats there scaling where appropriate and adding additional levels to ESD but taking design concepts from original maps and more recent additions. :cool: I feel that with certain attempts to remaster content it can be overdone and subsequently lose its charm.
Deep Space Nine should also be given an update mostly doubling it in size and adding a few more cannon zones like cargo bays, science labs, infirmary garaks shop e.t.c
There is a reason for my preference of using Drozana Station for bank, exchange, mail, tailor, and ship swapping/equipping, in spite of the troll infestation on the station and the often poor quality RPing that goes on there. It's because ESD, DS9, and the First City of Qo'noS + Orbital Shipyard in the Qo'noS system have all of that stuff so spread out to great distance. Even the Command Center on ch'Mol'Rihan is pretty spread out (although not so hideously as ESD and the First City, *but* there's no bartender at New Romulus Command Center, and you get the best prices for the space junk you want to sell from a bartender instead of any NPC that is officially designated as a vendor). In other words, it's more convenient and takes less time to perform the necessary mechanical acts, thus giving me more time for actual gameplay. Increasing the size of ESD or DS9 wouldn't encourage me to go there, but instead would do quite the opposite.
Players are making a judgement on something that has yet to be implemented and are making judgement that at this moment in time is something only on paper. Until it is implented into the game, can we only then make a rational decision whether or not being able to switch ships is a bad idea.
None of know EXACTLY how it is going to work, until then, when it is operational ingame then can we all decide.
And that is why I keep asking Bran whether tray setup will be included in the loadouts. The question always gets dotched somehow.
N.B. Are you so lacking in imagination that you need to see it implemented first, before you can form an idea about the notion of being able to change ships in space?! No one is talking about the specifics: just the concept.
No it's not trivial to me. I just understand the need for game play convenience over that of simulating the shows.
We still cannot say "Engage!" from our bridges and travel in space inside our ships. Many want this realism (me included). You may be right that some people left the game because of this. But STO is doing well without this staple feature from the shows.
It will be the same with switching ships. If you REALLY want to return to space dock to switch ships and builds why don't you just do that? Everyone else who enjoys the convenience of the new feature can simply do it on the fly anywhere they want.
I'd kind of like being able to sit in the captain's chair and watch the viewscreen as I travel through space, too, but as an option, and not something forced on me.
I have a friend who is also a gamer who refuses to play certain games, and uses the excuse that he doesn't like games in which he cannot adjust the camera to the point that it gives him the character's PoV; he claims that other views "confuse" him. And yet, I've seen him play games in which that supposedly "necessary" feature is not an option, without any noticeable confusion. I'm not sure if this is even relevant to this discussion, but it is something I believe worth considering in connection with the objections being raised. Namely, I think that if this feature had already existed in STO from the start, we wouldn't have seen much complaining about it.
It's not about choosing whether to change ships in space or at ESD. It's the path changes like this represent to the game. You need to look at the bigger picture, not just a single detail.
Are you saying, then, that you have no issue with the upcoming feature at all, but are instead merely using it to construct a Slippery Slope Fallacy upon?
Namely, I think that if this feature had already existed in STO from the start, we wouldn't have seen much complaining about it.
Of course we wouldn't have seen as much complaining about an existing feature of the game as we are about a proposed feature. That does not mean that various existing features are not annoying to different players.
I find the practically instant respawn, without an instance reset, to be an annoyance. It's not my preferred style of play. I've mentioned it before. Others have as well. It hasn't been a topic to draw a lot of attention in a thread, because that is the way the game is. Not a lot of players will achieve synchronicity in regard to the discussion of an existing feature. This an announced feature. Let the devs make an announcement concerning respawning at the nearest starbase and I'm sure it would generate a lively discussion.
Some people seem to be a bit confused where most of the criticism of this new mechanism is coming from.
It's not about realism. Realism would first entail all of us living to be several hundred years old to get the technology.
It's not strictly speaking immersion, either. Although for some it will be immersion breaking.
The thing about immersion, to stretch the metaphor, is we all have a favourite depth of bath water. No need for them to be the same.
However, the game should allow all of us to select the level of immersion we desire.
This means that ship swapping, as an absolute concept, is inevitable.
However, the red line as it were, is the IP.
I know some have argued against this in this thread, suggesting that the Star Trek bit of Star Trek Online is basically optional.
It is this perception I think that divides some of us.
All I'm asking for, and what a number of others are also asking for, is for the ship swapping mechanism be turned off in sectors where it doesn't make some sort of sense.
The reason is a whole series of the TV show is based around the idea that when you're out of range you're really out of range.
Also, I'm not sure how much sense it makes for a friendly ship to just come to you in enemy sector space.
Thus, the suggestion that in sectors where you have no friendly starbase you cant ship swap.
I'm not arguing against the ship build swaps. Voyager retooled itself several times during its voyages. Essentially, build swaps is canon.
Ship swaps, however, are really not. And there has to be, in a Star Trek game, a point where you say 'thats just not Trekky enough'
I'm not quite 50 yet, but I have been watching Star Trek since before TOS was in reruns. I've watched every episode of every series, and all of the movies, usually several times each. I have all sorts of Star Trek "kitsch" in my home. I read the novels. I even attend conventions if they're close enough and have at least a couple of the people I would like to get pics taken with, get autographs from, etc. I consider myself a serious Trekker.
I think you're exaggerating the situation because it's not "perfect" -- and I think it's about immersion, regardless of how much you insist that it's not and is instead about the Intellectual Property. But let's go with that IP thing. CBS is the owner of the IP, and if CBS is okay with it, then why do you think you are the gatekeeper of the IP and that your view that it's not okay for the IP? Granted, there are many things I think CBS is too anal about with regard to the IP (such as their refusal to license the T5 Connie, D7, and T'liss -- even though pure KDF characters can get a T5 ship and skin it as a D7), but when they give the okay to something, then unless it's completely inconsistent with the IP (which this is not) or contradicts it blatantly (which this does not), then I don't see any reason for us to pitch a fit over it. Some of the objections some of you have posted seem like you think the game is going to be destroyed by this, or turned into something totally non-Trek. Neither scenario is true. Calm down. It's nowhere near the catastrophe you seem to be claiming it will be.
Actually, I'm the reverse, the ship-swapping doesna bother me, heck, call it "I radioed earlier, and point x is where we rondevouzed".
The instant ship swapping is good. Ship template saves to me, are bad. I don't necessarily mind the ability to have them, as in, you can prepare whatever build(s) you want, to have you x number of ship setup cookie cutters you want. But being able to instantly swap to differing builds, is bad. Then again, the only time it takes to manually swap stuff, is only limited to the speed at which you can click-drag stuff around, and the responsiveness of the UI. I kinda wish it took a certain amount of time to represent the "work" that's being done. Like, throwing in a new warp core? Takes 10 minutes. (As one person earlier said, this game's space & time are highly compressed) Swapping all 4 front weapons? Maybe 20 minutes per weapon, for a total of 1 hour & 20 minutes. And yes, time spent logged out, on another character, or on a different ship DOES count towards the time needed to elapse, before the changes need to be made. Maybe have a "quick-change" token, get like 1-3 of them per day, to represent your crew's ability to perform miracle-like work in a hurry. Also, when you first get a particular ship, those delays are voided, since you could have technically asked for these items to be set up on your new ship, ahead of you getting it. (So it doesn't penalize a character that's just levelled up and gotten a new ship, for example).
Anyway, there's my take on both of the upcoming & proposed changes. As well as one existing one.
And honestly, who would play a game like that? Or are you being facetious and this is me validating Poe's Law (or more accurately, Jerry Schwarz's earlier formulation of essentially the same idea)?
I really don't care if there is a swap in space option, just so long as this doesn't lead to not having any space travel at all. If anything, I want foundry missions attached to planets that I have to go out and find. I want sector space to be about discovery. So give me a deep space exploration zone where I can find new adventures created by my peers. If that can be done, I don't give two rips about being able to swap ships in space.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
1) It further diminishes the believability of the game.
Yes, games require a person to suspend disbelief, but if something becomes more and more and more unbelievable it becomes a farce.
2) It's lazy and a form of instant gratification.
What is it with the need for instant gratification? I want my other ship NOW, DAMN IT!!! Didn't people get taught patience when they were younger? What's the next instant gratification, being able to call the Azura with no countdown? Then what? No cooldown on transwarp? Then what? Press a button to level up? Every time the game gets its challenges removed the less rewarding it becomes and the less people will play it. What's the point if there's nothing to work through/overcome/spend time doing?
1) This game dose not have that for a long time, and it is not about that at all.
For some one new that joined this game, he will need to travel to base to report to admiral, to buy and sell stuff, and he will have immersion until he hit lvl 40, after that more or less micromanagment is just annoyance that takes time and the new guy will be well aware of that
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2) No it dose not.
Are you saying there is no unlimited transwarp in this game now? you know that you can reuse old mission to quickly transwarp to homeworld of every fraction in this game.
there is no traveling to your starbase of choice, there is no adventure in traveling to your base of choice (this is not fallout there is no random encounter).
for me to get to any of starbase in this game in need max 4 clicks, and you know what, it is annoying by now (because i have 3 loading screen to watch will im doing nothing).
there is absolutely nothing for a player in traveling to base, except wasting time. and i am amazed that they even gave us something like this, as time is money, and they live from that.
I think it's more that we think that your "message" is full of TRIBBLE, personally.
I get that you're butthurt over this, and I understand your reasons for that position. I simply don't agree with your conclusion.
I am a long-time RPer, as in going back to AD&D 1st edition in the late 70s, when the hardcover books were just starting to come out (the rules had already been published in The Dragon before they were published in hardcover books, fyi). I adore RP. I love immersion, but I also believe that total immersion is impossible (more on this below). I am also a long-time gamer, having worked in the industry, coding, modifying games in which it was permitted, doing customer service, and assorted other things. And before you make any assumptions about how long I've been playing STO based on my forum "Join Date" and attempt to use that to dismiss what I have to say about this game, I'll nip that in the bud by stating for the record that that date is incorrect as relates to my game join date; I just didn't post anything in the fora before May of 2013.
So you and you band of merry men are walking through the countryside in whatever world your DM has created. You then decide that you want a different horse. You don't want the slow but strong war horse that you brought, instead you want your fast and nimble horse that you left in your home town which is now ten days travel behind you.
"Damn, my sword broke in the middle of this battle. I'll swap it for the one in my home base that's all nice and shiny."
As for your join date, I never even look at them. I sincerely hope that nobody looks at them as otherwise that would engender a sense of people who have been here longer matter more. As far as I'm concerned, as long as people put forth an opinion that is not trolling then all opinions are valid and not "full of TRIBBLE". Even when those opinions differ from mine.
What you call "dumbing down" I call "removing largely irrelevant hassles and increasing player options." If you like those hassles, then you don't have to use the feature, simple as that. But trying to spoil it for those who would rather not have to deal with those hassles is in fact you trying to tell the rest of us how we should play, indeed, even trying to have your preferences enforced on the rest of us by the code of the game.
These hassles you refer to are part of playing the game. Games require hassles to overcome. If you're playing Call of Duty it's a hassle when you run out of ammunition. Unlimited ammo for everyone!! When you play Mechwarrior Online it's a hassle when you're in a slow mech. Fast mechs for everyone!! Whether it's besting opponents, finding objects, changing equipment or even just getting to a location, these are game mechanics that provide obstacles to overcome. If there is no obstacle then the game become pointless.
Total immersion, as I said above, is impossible. When was the last time your character had to have a sonic shower? Does your character sleep? Go to the powder room to eliminate waste? Get sick? Do you experience any physical sensation when your character gets hit with a disruptor blast? Does your room, or even chair, rock around when your ship gets hit with torpedoes? Do you have three dimensional 360? perspective limited to what is in the game, with all external stimuli blocked out? Can you tell me what a Comet Cocktail tastes like? Does it quench your thirst? How about a mug of Bloodwine (and wouldn't that be something that non-Klingons would be unable to consume anyway, according to hard canon)? What does it feel like to beam in/out with a transporter? You want total, realistic immersion? Invent a holosuite (and even then, you're going to have limitations as to how realistic and immersive it can be, even if you disable the safety protocols).
I've now said it's not about the immersion enough times to see you're trolling with this paragraph.
After reading this thread, what I see is that the people who kind of don't care about this change (or like it) are saying things like "Hey this increases player's options. You could now choose to either use the new shiny or go back to spacedocks"
It's what they call optional. You don't have to use it.
Many people are saying basically, "More Options Good"
Those couple of people opposed are saying "It can only work this way. The way it has been. Because it ruins my immersion on this slippery slope of yadda yadda yadda , then NO ONE Else is allowed to use this new option !" "I don't like it, so no one should use it."
Two Very different types of response here.
One is admitting that different players have MANY reasons for enjoying the game in different ways, and that this new feature can be used or not. Whatever. Play the game your way.
The other response is a very selfish "I DON'T LIKE IT!" sort of flailing and screaming about realism , and then 5 pages later saying No, it's really about the slippery slope, no wait it's about this other thing. In the OP the only solution offered is DON'T IMPLEMENT the change. There is no middle ground. Simply an "I don't like it. The only solution is don't do it."
So yeah, 2 different kinds of responses.
Me, I prefer as many options for players as possible so many different kinds of folk can enjoy the game their own way. Which means that I support the change.
On the subject of believability, is it truly so hard to believe that, perhaps, as a Vice Admiral (or the faction variation thereof), you are in command of, say, a small task-force? And you transfer command based on the needs of the mission, perhaps?
Honestly, I feel that this is being blown rather out of proportion. There's still plenty of things you can only do easily from social zones, and people going to ESD/First City to swap out ships generally aren't going to stay for socialization. They're generally switching ships for reasons that don't involve partaking in STO's equivalent of Barrens Chat.
Using the argument that this will lead to other changes that will make the game "worse" isn't really that great an argument against this feature. If you can't find a good reason to argue against this feature in and of itself without referring to something that may or may not happen in the future if this change can happens, then you don't really have a good argument against this change. Especially since worse is subjective.
So you and you band of merry men are walking through the countryside in whatever world your DM has created. You then decide that you want a different horse. You don't want the slow but strong war horse that you brought, instead you want your fast and nimble horse that you left in your home town which is now ten days travel behind you.
"Damn, my sword broke in the middle of this battle. I'll swap it for the one in my home base that's all nice and shiny."
There's a difference between your example and the topic at hand. Stuff happens while traveling in D&D, STO is just a time-sucking tedium where nothing happens. If a Red Alert occurs, you only have to click a button to jump in. Sector space is the equivalent of a 3D menu, so there's nothing to do when you're in sector space except wait for your ship to travel from point A to point B.
These hassles you refer to are part of playing the game. Games require hassles to overcome. If you're playing Call of Duty it's a hassle when you run out of ammunition. Unlimited ammo for everyone!! When you play Mechwarrior Online it's a hassle when you're in a slow mech. Fast mechs for everyone!! Whether it's besting opponents, finding objects, changing equipment or even just getting to a location, these are game mechanics that provide obstacles to overcome. If there is no obstacle then the game become pointless.
You're confusing "hassle" with "challenge". Games have challenges to overcome as part of the game. Waiting for your ship to travel from here to there with nothing of note ever occurring is not a challenge, it's a hassle and an unnecessary one at that. The problem is, that traveling through sector space is totally pointless. Ship swapping in space is not lazy, at least not on the player's part, it's just wanting to bypass something that has no reason to be, in its current state. I'd be thrilled if there were random events while traveling through sector space (distress calls, ambush, Borg attack on a planet), but there aren't and it's a complete waste of time to force players to tolerate it when it doesn't offer any game play value. The fact remains that there's nothing compelling in sector space to spend the time traveling through it.
Maybe, just maybe, if there were fuel requirements for travel (speed vs fuel efficiency), random encounters, distress calls, and time limited events (e.g. You have 60 seconds to reach a starbase to defend it from an invasion) to make sector space worth having. In order to have a valid complaint about the new option, sector space needs to be worth spending time on it, not just a time barrier with no game play value nor challenge.
While we're at it, why don't we have a few more starbases? Just something minimal (one per sector) for refueling, rearming (I wish torpedoes had ammo slots), and VIP transporting missions.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
Sorry I skipped a dozen pages to put in a reply. So if this duplicates a previous post I apologize.
If the feature is to go into your ship and down to the transporter room to select another ship. You then beam over to the new ship that is in sector space.
This is you had one of your ships meet you for a mission swap. I see this as both doable in a programming and environment way.
The idea of not being able to swap your ship in a hostile zone has merit from the environment side. IE I can see a ship meeting you from ESD on Rissa, but not near Rura Penthe. But maybe not possible or practical to code.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Can we make it so we just log in and earn marks, and dilithium? I'm getting really tired of having to do anything in this game, and my fingers hurt from hitting the spacebar so much.
I shall not be satisfied untill when it's possible for me to hit my keyboard with my forehead and get an "You WIN!" message on my screen, joined with some fancy firework annimation. :mad:
Sorry I skipped a dozen pages to put in a reply. So if this duplicates a previous post I apologize.
If the feature is to go into your ship and down to the transporter room to select another ship. You then beam over to the new ship that is in sector space.
This is you had one of your ships meet you for a mission swap. I see this as both doable in a programming and environment way.
The idea of not being able to swap your ship in a hostile zone has merit from the environment side. IE I can see a ship meeting you from ESD on Rissa, but not near Rura Penthe. But maybe not possible or practical to code.
Environmental concerns in a multiplayer game is only selfish in that you share your problems with others. Individual options that would work in a singleplayer game, should now just apply for all, as if nobody else would be around. I find it a bit sad. For is it not yet another step in taking the M's out of that O? Thank you for being an "MMO environmentalist". A rare breed indeeed. This kind of thing is a little bit like littering, it takes away the beauty of it all. A very impractical approach, granted. To put up places where you have to get rid of your old stuff.
My point is you're not fully experiencing the game if you get everything handed to you on a plate.
If you think there is some "hard worker virtue" in pointlessly slogging through sector space, more power to you. But I'll decide what constitutes "fully experiencing the game" for me.
it's yet another unnecessary step in dumbification of the game whose repercussions we'll actually see in the future.
It is nothing more than a self-serving opinion that it "dumbs" anything down at all. I say there is nothing smart or sophisticated in watching your ship creep across the map. If you disagree, you are free to abstain from all transwarping and do all of your ship-swapping at starbases.
If you think there is some "hard worker virtue" in pointlessly slogging through sector space, more power to you. But I'll decide what constitutes "fully experiencing the game" for me.
It is nothing more than a self-serving opinion that it "dumbs" anything down. I say there is nothing smart or sophisticated in watching your ship creep across the map. If you disagree, you are free to abstain from all transwarping and do all of your ship-swapping at starbases.
Why they haven't replaced all this inconvenient movement with a text inteface that merely says "engage", and transport you to some instanced encounter, is a great mystery, beyond doubt. That would cut down on any development time as well. Win/Win. Why bother creating these areas with Starships going places, in the vastness of space. It is like they try to tell us something, when they just could have handed out a teleport 101 guide. Hah.
It is nothing more than a self-serving opinion that it "dumbs" anything down at all. I say there is nothing smart or sophisticated in watching your ship creep across the map. If you disagree, you are free to abstain from all transwarping and do all of your ship-swapping at starbases.
And I gave an example in my post how sector space in STO turned out to be dead and only a time consuming burden, by implementing things that simplified it step by step untill that lead to the current situation.
But you convinently ignored that part of the post and the facts that were put there because it doesn't support your narrow-minded view for instant personal gratification.
If you fail to understand how oversimplification of gameplay and game-mechanics can have a long term negative influence on the longetivity of a game or flat out refuse to, there's nothing more I can help you with.
Believe it or not, some of us care about STO and want to have it around for the long haul more than our personal daily needs. Shocking, I know. :eek:
Comments
Changing ships at ESD is already a part of the game. Taking things out of a game is always a surefire way to upset a great deal of people, so I wouldn't dream of discussing any alterations that would slow down that process. I am discussing this new ship changing before it gets released so that if it does get changed, it will be changed before it's released, not released and then retracted.
Why did I answer your question, then? Because you seem adamant to have it answered as you asked it more than once and directed it to me. I answered out of courtesy.
In regards to your response to my answer, please read this before you comment on my thoughts on immersion. I didn't quote it as the quotes from that post wouldn't have shown up.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=14524181&postcount=172
Your opinion differs from mine but I appreciate your thought out position. I do agree that there are already bits of the game that have slid, I suppose I'm trying to prevent further slippage. In either case I appreciate you (and everyone in this thread) discussing points instead of abusing.
Oh, I still enjoy the game and hope you do, too!!
It will still be the only place where you can customize your ships.
Don't forget the commodities. Since I have a Cell Ship on my KDF-allied Romulan, I no longer have to put EC in the account bank, switch to my Vulcan, and go to Vulcan to get the best price on Industrial Energy Cells, nor fly around the galaxy to various vendors in far-flung places in order to get the best prices on other commodities.
I'm actually a bit surprised that you find anything in STO to be slow, if you have played since EQ or UO. Can't argue about not having time to play. But still. What about world coherency? Shortcuts turn everything into a lobby, from where you teleport. Simulating a whole world or universe becomes meaningless. For you need not go there.
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Why would things become more difficult with the advent of more advanced technology?
Logically speaking, they're the same thread topic. One is affirming proposition X, while the other is denying proposition X.
I have more concern over the merging of the thread I chose to post in (the one talking about saving builds) with this one debating the merits of changing ships in sector space, although I myself mentioned that in the thread I chose to post in. Now in order to continue the discussion in which I chose to participate, I must participate in this discussion as well, which I've been doing this evening, although I intentionally did not post in this discussion earlier, despite having read some of it.
And this, so much this.
Right there with you on the sentiment. I actually find it rather hilarious that after being very insulting by basically calling those who like the addition (I can care less one way or another) lazy, the OP then proceeds to request that responses not be insulting. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.
This game is so far from being Star Trek it's not funny.
I think it's more that we think that your "message" is full of TRIBBLE, personally.
I get that you're butthurt over this, and I understand your reasons for that position. I simply don't agree with your conclusion.
I am a long-time RPer, as in going back to AD&D 1st edition in the late 70s, when the hardcover books were just starting to come out (the rules had already been published in The Dragon before they were published in hardcover books, fyi). I adore RP. I love immersion, but I also believe that total immersion is impossible (more on this below). I am also a long-time gamer, having worked in the industry, coding, modifying games in which it was permitted, doing customer service, and assorted other things. And before you make any assumptions about how long I've been playing STO based on my forum "Join Date" and attempt to use that to dismiss what I have to say about this game, I'll nip that in the bud by stating for the record that that date is incorrect as relates to my game join date; I just didn't post anything in the fora before May of 2013.
What you call "dumbing down" I call "removing largely irrelevant hassles and increasing player options." If you like those hassles, then you don't have to use the feature, simple as that. But trying to spoil it for those who would rather not have to deal with those hassles is in fact you trying to tell the rest of us how we should play, indeed, even trying to have your preferences enforced on the rest of us by the code of the game.
Total immersion, as I said above, is impossible. When was the last time your character had to have a sonic shower? Does your character sleep? Go to the powder room to eliminate waste? Get sick? Do you experience any physical sensation when your character gets hit with a disruptor blast? Does your room, or even chair, rock around when your ship gets hit with torpedoes? Do you have three dimensional 360? perspective limited to what is in the game, with all external stimuli blocked out? Can you tell me what a Comet Cocktail tastes like? Does it quench your thirst? How about a mug of Bloodwine (and wouldn't that be something that non-Klingons would be unable to consume anyway, according to hard canon)? What does it feel like to beam in/out with a transporter? You want total, realistic immersion? Invent a holosuite (and even then, you're going to have limitations as to how realistic and immersive it can be, even if you disable the safety protocols).
Everyone does have the ability to choose whether or not to pay taxes. They may not like the consequences, though.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
There is a reason for my preference of using Drozana Station for bank, exchange, mail, tailor, and ship swapping/equipping, in spite of the troll infestation on the station and the often poor quality RPing that goes on there. It's because ESD, DS9, and the First City of Qo'noS + Orbital Shipyard in the Qo'noS system have all of that stuff so spread out to great distance. Even the Command Center on ch'Mol'Rihan is pretty spread out (although not so hideously as ESD and the First City, *but* there's no bartender at New Romulus Command Center, and you get the best prices for the space junk you want to sell from a bartender instead of any NPC that is officially designated as a vendor). In other words, it's more convenient and takes less time to perform the necessary mechanical acts, thus giving me more time for actual gameplay. Increasing the size of ESD or DS9 wouldn't encourage me to go there, but instead would do quite the opposite.
And that is why I keep asking Bran whether tray setup will be included in the loadouts. The question always gets dotched somehow.
N.B. Are you so lacking in imagination that you need to see it implemented first, before you can form an idea about the notion of being able to change ships in space?! No one is talking about the specifics: just the concept.
I'd kind of like being able to sit in the captain's chair and watch the viewscreen as I travel through space, too, but as an option, and not something forced on me.
I have a friend who is also a gamer who refuses to play certain games, and uses the excuse that he doesn't like games in which he cannot adjust the camera to the point that it gives him the character's PoV; he claims that other views "confuse" him. And yet, I've seen him play games in which that supposedly "necessary" feature is not an option, without any noticeable confusion. I'm not sure if this is even relevant to this discussion, but it is something I believe worth considering in connection with the objections being raised. Namely, I think that if this feature had already existed in STO from the start, we wouldn't have seen much complaining about it.
Are you saying, then, that you have no issue with the upcoming feature at all, but are instead merely using it to construct a Slippery Slope Fallacy upon?
Of course we wouldn't have seen as much complaining about an existing feature of the game as we are about a proposed feature. That does not mean that various existing features are not annoying to different players.
I find the practically instant respawn, without an instance reset, to be an annoyance. It's not my preferred style of play. I've mentioned it before. Others have as well. It hasn't been a topic to draw a lot of attention in a thread, because that is the way the game is. Not a lot of players will achieve synchronicity in regard to the discussion of an existing feature. This an announced feature. Let the devs make an announcement concerning respawning at the nearest starbase and I'm sure it would generate a lively discussion.
I'm not quite 50 yet, but I have been watching Star Trek since before TOS was in reruns. I've watched every episode of every series, and all of the movies, usually several times each. I have all sorts of Star Trek "kitsch" in my home. I read the novels. I even attend conventions if they're close enough and have at least a couple of the people I would like to get pics taken with, get autographs from, etc. I consider myself a serious Trekker.
I think you're exaggerating the situation because it's not "perfect" -- and I think it's about immersion, regardless of how much you insist that it's not and is instead about the Intellectual Property. But let's go with that IP thing. CBS is the owner of the IP, and if CBS is okay with it, then why do you think you are the gatekeeper of the IP and that your view that it's not okay for the IP? Granted, there are many things I think CBS is too anal about with regard to the IP (such as their refusal to license the T5 Connie, D7, and T'liss -- even though pure KDF characters can get a T5 ship and skin it as a D7), but when they give the okay to something, then unless it's completely inconsistent with the IP (which this is not) or contradicts it blatantly (which this does not), then I don't see any reason for us to pitch a fit over it. Some of the objections some of you have posted seem like you think the game is going to be destroyed by this, or turned into something totally non-Trek. Neither scenario is true. Calm down. It's nowhere near the catastrophe you seem to be claiming it will be.
And honestly, who would play a game like that? Or are you being facetious and this is me validating Poe's Law (or more accurately, Jerry Schwarz's earlier formulation of essentially the same idea)?
1) This game dose not have that for a long time, and it is not about that at all.
For some one new that joined this game, he will need to travel to base to report to admiral, to buy and sell stuff, and he will have immersion until he hit lvl 40, after that more or less micromanagment is just annoyance that takes time and the new guy will be well aware of that
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2) No it dose not.
Are you saying there is no unlimited transwarp in this game now? you know that you can reuse old mission to quickly transwarp to homeworld of every fraction in this game.
there is no traveling to your starbase of choice, there is no adventure in traveling to your base of choice (this is not fallout there is no random encounter).
for me to get to any of starbase in this game in need max 4 clicks, and you know what, it is annoying by now (because i have 3 loading screen to watch will im doing nothing).
there is absolutely nothing for a player in traveling to base, except wasting time. and i am amazed that they even gave us something like this, as time is money, and they live from that.
So you and you band of merry men are walking through the countryside in whatever world your DM has created. You then decide that you want a different horse. You don't want the slow but strong war horse that you brought, instead you want your fast and nimble horse that you left in your home town which is now ten days travel behind you.
"Excuse me, Mr/Ms DM, I'm swapping my horse over." Shyeah, right!!
If this was allowed, then what?
"Damn, my sword broke in the middle of this battle. I'll swap it for the one in my home base that's all nice and shiny."
As for your join date, I never even look at them. I sincerely hope that nobody looks at them as otherwise that would engender a sense of people who have been here longer matter more. As far as I'm concerned, as long as people put forth an opinion that is not trolling then all opinions are valid and not "full of TRIBBLE". Even when those opinions differ from mine.
These hassles you refer to are part of playing the game. Games require hassles to overcome. If you're playing Call of Duty it's a hassle when you run out of ammunition. Unlimited ammo for everyone!! When you play Mechwarrior Online it's a hassle when you're in a slow mech. Fast mechs for everyone!! Whether it's besting opponents, finding objects, changing equipment or even just getting to a location, these are game mechanics that provide obstacles to overcome. If there is no obstacle then the game become pointless.
I've now said it's not about the immersion enough times to see you're trolling with this paragraph.
It's what they call optional. You don't have to use it.
Many people are saying basically, "More Options Good"
Those couple of people opposed are saying "It can only work this way. The way it has been. Because it ruins my immersion on this slippery slope of yadda yadda yadda , then NO ONE Else is allowed to use this new option !" "I don't like it, so no one should use it."
Two Very different types of response here.
One is admitting that different players have MANY reasons for enjoying the game in different ways, and that this new feature can be used or not. Whatever. Play the game your way.
The other response is a very selfish "I DON'T LIKE IT!" sort of flailing and screaming about realism , and then 5 pages later saying No, it's really about the slippery slope, no wait it's about this other thing. In the OP the only solution offered is DON'T IMPLEMENT the change. There is no middle ground. Simply an "I don't like it. The only solution is don't do it."
So yeah, 2 different kinds of responses.
Me, I prefer as many options for players as possible so many different kinds of folk can enjoy the game their own way. Which means that I support the change.
Honestly, I feel that this is being blown rather out of proportion. There's still plenty of things you can only do easily from social zones, and people going to ESD/First City to swap out ships generally aren't going to stay for socialization. They're generally switching ships for reasons that don't involve partaking in STO's equivalent of Barrens Chat.
There's a difference between your example and the topic at hand. Stuff happens while traveling in D&D, STO is just a time-sucking tedium where nothing happens. If a Red Alert occurs, you only have to click a button to jump in. Sector space is the equivalent of a 3D menu, so there's nothing to do when you're in sector space except wait for your ship to travel from point A to point B.
You're confusing "hassle" with "challenge". Games have challenges to overcome as part of the game. Waiting for your ship to travel from here to there with nothing of note ever occurring is not a challenge, it's a hassle and an unnecessary one at that. The problem is, that traveling through sector space is totally pointless. Ship swapping in space is not lazy, at least not on the player's part, it's just wanting to bypass something that has no reason to be, in its current state. I'd be thrilled if there were random events while traveling through sector space (distress calls, ambush, Borg attack on a planet), but there aren't and it's a complete waste of time to force players to tolerate it when it doesn't offer any game play value. The fact remains that there's nothing compelling in sector space to spend the time traveling through it.
Maybe, just maybe, if there were fuel requirements for travel (speed vs fuel efficiency), random encounters, distress calls, and time limited events (e.g. You have 60 seconds to reach a starbase to defend it from an invasion) to make sector space worth having. In order to have a valid complaint about the new option, sector space needs to be worth spending time on it, not just a time barrier with no game play value nor challenge.
While we're at it, why don't we have a few more starbases? Just something minimal (one per sector) for refueling, rearming (I wish torpedoes had ammo slots), and VIP transporting missions.
If the feature is to go into your ship and down to the transporter room to select another ship. You then beam over to the new ship that is in sector space.
This is you had one of your ships meet you for a mission swap. I see this as both doable in a programming and environment way.
The idea of not being able to swap your ship in a hostile zone has merit from the environment side. IE I can see a ship meeting you from ESD on Rissa, but not near Rura Penthe. But maybe not possible or practical to code.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I shall not be satisfied untill when it's possible for me to hit my keyboard with my forehead and get an "You WIN!" message on my screen, joined with some fancy firework annimation. :mad:
Environmental concerns in a multiplayer game is only selfish in that you share your problems with others. Individual options that would work in a singleplayer game, should now just apply for all, as if nobody else would be around. I find it a bit sad. For is it not yet another step in taking the M's out of that O? Thank you for being an "MMO environmentalist". A rare breed indeeed. This kind of thing is a little bit like littering, it takes away the beauty of it all. A very impractical approach, granted. To put up places where you have to get rid of your old stuff.
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If you think there is some "hard worker virtue" in pointlessly slogging through sector space, more power to you. But I'll decide what constitutes "fully experiencing the game" for me.
It is nothing more than a self-serving opinion that it "dumbs" anything down at all. I say there is nothing smart or sophisticated in watching your ship creep across the map. If you disagree, you are free to abstain from all transwarping and do all of your ship-swapping at starbases.
Why they haven't replaced all this inconvenient movement with a text inteface that merely says "engage", and transport you to some instanced encounter, is a great mystery, beyond doubt. That would cut down on any development time as well. Win/Win. Why bother creating these areas with Starships going places, in the vastness of space. It is like they try to tell us something, when they just could have handed out a teleport 101 guide. Hah.
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And I gave an example in my post how sector space in STO turned out to be dead and only a time consuming burden, by implementing things that simplified it step by step untill that lead to the current situation.
But you convinently ignored that part of the post and the facts that were put there because it doesn't support your narrow-minded view for instant personal gratification.
If you fail to understand how oversimplification of gameplay and game-mechanics can have a long term negative influence on the longetivity of a game or flat out refuse to, there's nothing more I can help you with.
Believe it or not, some of us care about STO and want to have it around for the long haul more than our personal daily needs. Shocking, I know. :eek: