The assumption that people who like this change don't care about STO is stupid. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you care about the game more, just means you don't like a change.
Why they haven't replaced all this inconvenient movement with a text inteface that merely says "engage", and transport you to some instanced encounter, is a great mystery, beyond doubt.
No harm would come of it if they did exactly that. I dare say most peoples' enjoyment is not derived from "Adventures in Sector Space, Chapter IV, the captain takes a dump and then has a nap."
And I gave an example in my post how sector space in STO turned out to be dead and only a time consuming burden, by implementing things that simplified it step by step untill that lead to the current situation.
But you convinently ignored that part of the post and the facts that were put there because it doesn't support your narrow-minded view for instant personal gratification.
If you fail to understand how oversimplification of gameplay and game-mechanics can have a long term negative influence on the longetivity of a game or flat out refuse to, there's nothing more I can help you with.
Believe it or not, some of us care about STO and want to have it around for the long haul more than our personal daily needs. Shocking, I know. :eek:
I understand it perfectly. You're not floating some revolutionary new ideas, here.
What you need to understand is that everything you just said is opinion. "Negative," "oversimplification," etc, all of it depends on everyone agreeing to your terms. Guess what? Not everyone does, and their opinions are no less valid. Not even if they make the opposite assertion, that it is a positive thing to pare down needlessly inefficient time-sinks in the game.
Why they haven't replaced all this inconvenient movement with a text inteface that merely says "engage", and transport you to some instanced encounter, is a great mystery, beyond doubt. That would cut down on any development time as well. Win/Win. Why bother creating these areas with Starships going places, in the vastness of space. It is like they try to tell us something, when they just could have handed out a teleport 101 guide. Hah.
Since the first time of getting my Scimitar's wings stuck on the crowd of ships when trying to enter or exit a star system, I can't use the term "vastness of space" in reference to sector space anymore. Not with a straight face. :rolleyes:
It's very inconvenient for me to level up a new character and rep them out. We should be able to start new characters, with all the level and rep we achieved on our main character.
The assumption that people who like this change don't care about STO is stupid. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you care about the game more, just means you don't like a change.
Yeah, I understand that and that's not what I was trying to say. I have no way of knowing how much someone cares or doesn't care about the game. Maybe came out sounding a bit wrong as English is not my native language, so sorry for that.
Thing is, at least to me, it's not about this minor insignificant change to the gameplay. Like I said in previous posts, this change is minor, not gamebreaking, not immersion breaking and but a drop in the water. The thing is the direction STO is headed into. I strongly believe that if we love the game, we must see what's best in the long run.
Imagine it as being on a crossroad, and you can either go left or right. Now if we say that left is wrong and right is well....right this minor change would possibly symbolize one single step towards left in the long run. Now the change is nothing, you're still there and only a step or jump away from the right road, but if you continue to go left you'll end up with things like: unneccessary sector space in STO, abandoned Vulcan, abandoned Andoria, prettly abandoned Bajor as well....while having 3 fully capable starbases in a single sector block like Eta Eridani, a space you can travel today in less than a minute. This has all hapened.
It's very inconvenient for me to level up a new character and rep them out. We should be able to start new characters, with all the level and rep we achieved on our main character.
:rolleyes:
Derpy slippery slope argument. Removing one needless inconvenience does not automatically translate to "instant gratification in all things."
I didn't say that it did. Missing a point does not automatically invalidate that point.
If what you're trying to do is falsly portray all quality of life changes for convenience as equally significant, that all of them contribute to "dumbing down" the game in the inevitable creep towards catering to some BS definition of "laziness," then you have no point. You just plain don't like it and don't think anyone else should, either. Too bad. It's coming and it won't be the end of the world.
So you and you band of merry men are walking through the countryside in whatever world your DM has created. You then decide that you want a different horse. You don't want the slow but strong war horse that you brought, instead you want your fast and nimble horse that you left in your home town which is now ten days travel behind you.
"Damn, my sword broke in the middle of this battle. I'll swap it for the one in my home base that's all nice and shiny."
Bag of Holding and similar items made this possible within the context of a fantasy genre game, and even if putting a living creature into such a thing were officially a no-no, most DMs had "house rules" and weren't hardasses bent on doing everything in their power to make the players' experience an overly tiresome one. There were also items and/or skills which would allow the player to summon a steed, sometimes at will, other times after a brief wait (much briefer than traversing many leagues to get back to the home for a new horse) or even various forms of teleportation, dimensional gates, etc.
As for your join date, I never even look at them. I sincerely hope that nobody looks at them as otherwise that would engender a sense of people who have been here longer matter more. As far as I'm concerned, as long as people put forth an opinion that is not trolling then all opinions are valid and not "full of TRIBBLE". Even when those opinions differ from mine.
Good on you. Many players (here and elsewhere) seem to grasp any sort of straw they can in order to discredit the views of those who disagree with them, including "Well, you've only been playing for 3 years, so you can't possibly know what things were like 'back in the day' when we who have been playing for 5 years only had one map, the level cap was 40, and you had to grind for days just to get .01% of the experience points necessary to get to the next level, and we think everyone should have to suffer the same way we did back then, because progress is bad."
These hassles you refer to are part of playing the game. Games require hassles to overcome. If you're playing Call of Duty it's a hassle when you run out of ammunition. Unlimited ammo for everyone!! When you play Mechwarrior Online it's a hassle when you're in a slow mech. Fast mechs for everyone!! Whether it's besting opponents, finding objects, changing equipment or even just getting to a location, these are game mechanics that provide obstacles to overcome. If there is no obstacle then the game become pointless.
Challenges which make sense and do not impose unnecessary steps which serve no real purpose other than eating up a player's time are one thing. Challenges which exist solely to make the game more time-consuming are simply laborious, boring, and detrimental to the survival of the game. It's sort of like a job in which when there's a lull in the employee's usual work, the manager blows his top about how the worker can't "Just be standing around doing nothing," so he tells the employee to grab a broom and look busy, even if the floor is perfectly clean.
I've now said it's not about the immersion enough times to see you're trolling with this paragraph.
I'm not trolling, and redefining words doesn't change their meaning for everyone else. You can call it "IP" till you're blue in the face. You're still talking about immersion.
Yeah, I understand that and that's not what I was trying to say. I have no way of knowing how much someone cares or doesn't care about the game. Maybe came out sounding a bit wrong as English is not my native language, so sorry for that.
Thing is, at least to me, it's not about this minor insignificant change to the gameplay. Like I said in previous posts, this change is minor, not gamebreaking, not immersion breaking and but a drop in the water. The thing is the direction STO is headed into. I strongly believe that if we love the game, we must see what's best in the long run.
Imagine it as being on a crossroad, and you can either go left or right. Now if we say that left is wrong and right is well....right this minor change would possibly symbolize one single step towards left in the long run. Now the change is nothing, you're still there and only a step or jump away from the right road, but if you continue to go left you'll end up with things like: unneccessary sector space in STO, abandoned Vulcan, abandoned Andoria, prettly abandoned Bajor as well....while having 3 fully capable starbases in a single sector block like Eta Eridani, a space you can travel today in less than a minute. This has all hapened.
Problem is that you're making an argument about how this will be bad because of some nebulous idea of what may or may not happen in the future due to this.
MMOs thrive on time sinks. What the developer needs to do is decide what is a worth-while time sink. Is having to fly to ESD, DS9 or some other place with a proper NPC to change your ship a worth-while time sink? Not really. Flying to a base, getting a new ship, and then flying back to where you were if you wanted a new ship specifically for something you can't queue for is not a good time sink, it's an annoying time sink. Things will still need to be done at those places, like setting up your boff abilities if you need to change them, so it's not like the places will become useless.
This change could also get more people in sector space because now they don't have to sit in ESD to be able to switch to a new ship if they like doing it often enough that the above time sink is too annoying. Now they can set things up at ESD, and then hang around in sector space while still being able to do this.
Since the first time of getting my Scimitar's wings stuck on the crowd of ships when trying to enter or exit a star system, I can't use the term "vastness of space" in reference to sector space anymore. Not with a straight face. :rolleyes:
It just rolls out differently, and is a bit easier to say, compared to "The cramped shoeboxes of confinement, which power lies in creating collisions between oversized monstrosities satisfying the megalomaniacs among us, to the point of absurdity, considering the scaling used. If it is used at all."
If what you're trying to do is falsly portray all quality of life changes for convenience as equally significant, that all of them contribute to "dumbing down" the game in the inevitable creep towards catering to some BS definition of "laziness," then you have no point. You just plain don't like it and don't think anyone else should, either. Too bad. It's coming and it won't be the end of the world.
lol I don't have to predict the inevitable creep towards catering to some BS definition of "laziness". It's already happened.
However, as I've stated previously, I don't care so much about swapping ships in sector space as I do about how that swap is manifested within the game aesthetics. It's not the laziness of the player that bothers me. It's the laziness of the developers.
This game sucks. I wouldn't care about it at all, if were not for the Star Trek IP.
Problem is that you're making an argument about how this will be bad because of some nebulous idea of what may or may not happen in the future due to this.
It's not a nebulous idea, it's an extrapolation based on very similar things that already happened in STO in front of my very eyes.
MMOs thrive on time sinks. What the developer needs to do is decide what is a worth-while time sink. Is having to fly to ESD, DS9 or some other place with a proper NPC to change your ship a worth-while time sink? Not really. Flying to a base, getting a new ship, and then flying back to where you were if you wanted a new ship specifically for something you can't queue for is not a good time sink, it's an annoying time sink. Things will still need to be done at those places, like setting up your boff abilities if you need to change them, so it's not like the places will become useless.
This change could also get more people in sector space because now they don't have to sit in ESD to be able to switch to a new ship if they like doing it often enough that the above time sink is too annoying. Now they can set things up at ESD, and then hang around in sector space while still being able to do this.
I get your point, I really do. I even agree with you that sector space is currently nothing more than a mere time-sink that is probably considered as an unnecessary one even by the devs.
My point is, how do we go about it. What will we choose as a direction for STO. Keeping sector space by adding missions, dailies, encounters and whatever other use for it the devs. may come up with, or do we just step by step dismantle any possible use that traveling through space could have and end up in a Star Trek game without sector space?
I don't know about the rest of you, but playing a Star Trek game without sector space doesn't seem fun nor interesting at all to me.
Challenges which make sense and do not impose unnecessary steps which serve no real purpose other than eating up a player's time are one thing. Challenges which exist solely to make the game more time-consuming are simply laborious, boring, and detrimental to the survival of the game.
Is having to fly to ESD, DS9 or some other place with a proper NPC to change your ship a worth-while time sink? Not really. Flying to a base, getting a new ship, and then flying back to where you were if you wanted a new ship specifically for something you can't queue for is not a good time sink, it's an annoying time sink.
It's not a nebulous idea, it's an extrapolation based on very similar things that already happened in STO in front of my very eyes.
Otherwise known as a slippery slope argument. "If you let them get around this, they'll never want to "work" for anything, ever." :rolleyes: It's illogical and BS.
What will we choose as a direction for STO.
100% towards individual enjoyment, which means not allowing you to deny other people options you don't approve of.
I don't know about the rest of you, but playing a Star Trek game without sector space doesn't seem fun nor interesting at all to me.
So either stop playing, or discipline yourself to always travel via sector space. The opinions of people who see no value in that display of masochism are no less valid.
It's not a nebulous idea, it's an extrapolation based on very similar things that already happened in STO in front of my very eyes.
That's still a nebulous idea. You don't actually know what's going to happen in the future, you're assuming that this will lead to X when it may actually lead to Y.
II get your point, I really do. I even agree with you that sector space is currently nothing more than a mere time-sink that is probably considered as an unnecessary one even by the devs.
My point is, how do we go about it. What will we choose as a direction for STO. Keeping sector space by adding missions, dailies, encounters and whatever other use for it the devs. may come up with, or do we just step by step dismantle any possible use that traveling through space could have and end up in a Star Trek game without sector space?
To be honest, a change like this would seem to make updating sector space more worthwhile not less. Allowing people to change ships to do X event, and then Y event later without having to be concerned about being in the right ship would make people more likely to do said events than not making this change and these people still just sitting around ESD.
Guess I have a bit of a different take on this....while I personally didn't feel this move itself was needed....I generally am more for eliminating busy work when playing the game. In other words...less time going to starbases and preparing to do missions, pve, pvp and more time doing.
No one is going to be more sociable because they are forced to go to a starbase to conduct business. They will take time out from playing the game, conduct their business and get out. Those more socially inclined would already be doing so.
Now I would not suggest eliminating all need for a starbase as it makes sense to have to go there for tasks like switching ships or perhaps the exchange. But why to have a working doctor when I am beat up? Why can't my ship have a tailor? I can have an account bank on the ship but no personal bank?
TLDR: streamling the experience to spend more time flying your ship rather than preparing to fly it is nothing but good. I am not sure this change is the streamlining I would have chosen but will welcome it.
Otherwise known as a slippery slope argument. "If you let them get around this, they'll never want to "work" for anything, ever." :rolleyes: It's illogical and BS.
100% towards individual enjoyment, which means not allowing you to deny other people options you don't approve of.
Am I? Sorry, I wasn't aware I had the power to do that, might jump in game and try that now. I thought we were all sharing different opinions and views here, but hey, since you say I have the power to deny people something maybe I should try, right? :rolleyes:
So either stop playing, or discipline yourself to always travel via sector space. The opinions of people who see no value in that display of masochism are no less valid.
Excuse me? Who the heck do you think are you to tell me if I should stop playing or not, or what should I talk about or not?
Masochism? Dude are you for real? You're saying that in this context? Do you know what that even means?
Protip: Half of the understaning of what people post is reading, the other half is actually processing it through your brain, something I get the feeling is a foreign concept to you.
If you actually tried to comprehend what I'm trying to say instead of jumping around, maybe you'd have understood that I'm talking about things that give more and less value to the game as a whole.
But I'm probably wasting my time trying to discuss something with someone that finds it okay to have a Star Trek game without open space. What could I possibly prove to someone with that position?
That's still a nebulous idea. You don't actually know what's going to happen in the future, you're assuming that this will lead to X when it may actually lead to Y.
To be honest, a change like this would seem to make updating sector space more worthwhile not less. Allowing people to change ships to do X event, and then Y event later without having to be concerned about being in the right ship would make people more likely to do said events than not making this change and these people still just sitting around ESD.
It doesn't to me either, but it's not like this is heralding the end of sector space at all.
Extrapolation isn't that hard, when we have some glorious examples out there, to set the bar for convenience measures. At some point you have to decide what you're going to play, or rather, avoid playing, as the case might be. Embrace the duality in that one.
Erm, well back to saurus bashing. Another unavoidable fate, bestowed upon us. Optionally solved by doing something even less effective. Granted.
I don't know about the rest of you, but playing a Star Trek game without sector space doesn't seem fun nor interesting at all to me.
See, there's that Slippery Slope fallacy again. The ability to change ships wherever does not mean that sector space will be done away with. It's there, and it's likely to remain there, because people do like it -- at times.
I like sector space. I like traveling in it. I like that it's an option, too, and that we also have the option to transwarp.
I also like to walk when I'm not in space, rather than jog or run everywhere. I also like to run when I'm pressed for time or just don't feel like puttering along through all the obnoxious griefers on Drozana or having to be exposed any longer than necessary to the inane chatter on ESD Zone chat. I like the options to choose for myself, based on my mood at the time, or the climate of the zone at that particular moment, or the time remaining in the Bonus Marks event, or whatever.
No, that satisfied the objective definition of a slippery slope argument. It's a tactic people resort to when their objections don't carry enough weight on their own.
Am I? Sorry, I wasn't aware I had the power to do that, might jump in game and try that now. I thought we were all sharing different opinions and views here, but hey, since you say I have the power to deny people something maybe I should try, right?
So seeking developer action to limit someone else's options. Do you think you're gaining anything with that pedantic little hair split? You're still trying to limit what I can do, because you don't approve.
Excuse me? Who the heck do you think are you to tell me if I should stop playing or not, or what should I talk about or not?
Who I am is someone who doesn't appreciate your attempts at limiting what I can do based on your opinions.
Masochism? Dude are you for real? You're saying that in this context? Do you know what that even means?
Yes. Masochism. As in punishing yourself because you enjoy it or imagine some inherent value in it. Perfectly apt description of "you are getting off too easy if you don't fly through sector space."
Protip:
Protip: everyone who uses that condescending term without a hint of irony is a smug little jerk who should be ignored.
See, there's that Slippery Slope fallacy again. The ability to change ships wherever does not mean that sector space will be done away with. It's there, and it's likely to remain there, because people do like it -- at times.
It's actually not. And if you've read my other posts in this thread than you know that I never said this decision would be the end of sector space or DOOOOM! :P
I like sector space. I like traveling in it. I like that it's an option, too, and that we also have the option to transwarp.
I also like to walk when I'm not in space, rather than jog or run everywhere. I also like to run when I'm pressed for time or just don't feel like puttering along through all the obnoxious griefers on Drozana or having to be exposed any longer than necessary to the inane chatter on ESD Zone chat. I like the options to choose for myself, based on my mood at the time, or the climate of the zone at that particular moment, or the time remaining in the Bonus Marks event, or whatever.
Now don't take this as some grandpa sitting on a rocking chair and starting a story like "when I was young..." lol :P or as not valuing opinions of new players (because when anyone joined STO doesn't make a difference in a discussion), but back in the day sector space had more value than it has now. And there were similar discussions. One of them was the random NPC encounters - some people complained that it's bugging them and unconvinient for them to be randomly attacked by NPCs, others said that it's good because it brings a feel of realism to the space travel. But the first group inisited that "you choose if you want to have NPC encounters in space or not and don't enforce your view on us!". And than Cryptic turned them in the red dots we have today, basically leaving then as a remnant of the past instead of developing the concept and adding more value to it. And it lead to Cryptic not even bothering to put these 'red dots' in new sector blocks anymore.
So when you have no use for sector space, who's to say that the devs. won't just decide to kill it one day in order to save on resources and add a site-to-site warp option? You probably know as well as me that they won't ask protogoth or shpoks wheather we like travelling through sector space with our ships, they'll look at metrics and their metrics will say that everyone is using the easy route - because that's human nature. And after than neither me nor you will have that priviledge, cause it'll be gone.
Not saying this will happen, but there is a slight possibility.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say - everyone should be forced to crawl through the uninteresting , unimaginative and completely off-scale sector space that we have in STO today. What I'm saying is that instead of trying to cut through that boring time-sink sector space has turned into, why not starting to add something of value, something fun and engaging that wouldn't leave people feeling like they're doing a chore.
At the end of the day, as someone else said, our discussion here will not change anything. It's already been decided, not because you like it, but because the devs said so. If tommorow D'an wakes up on the wrong foot, he may decide not to do it, and it wouldn't be because I said not to, but because he decided.
The point of me making my argument here is purely because upon these decisions Cryptic has already made, if some of them decide to read through the thread they can see that there are different opinions and people who care about the sector space or other stuff mentioned and consider that in their future decisions as well.
What I'm saying is that instead of trying to cut through that boring time-sink sector space has turned into, why not starting to add something of value, something fun and engaging that wouldn't leave people feeling like they're doing a chore.
What you're describing bears little or no resemblance to sector space as it exists now. Give me something other than watching my ship creep across a map, and I might be on board. But it needs to be fun and benefit my advancement in the game, and not just an empty demonstration of my "worthiness" according to someone else's narrow, self-serving definition.
Extrapolation isn't that hard, when we have some glorious examples out there, to set the bar for convenience measures. At some point you have to decide what you're going to play, or rather, avoid playing, as the case might be. Embrace the duality in that one.
Erm, well back to saurus bashing. Another unavoidable fate, bestowed upon us. Optionally solved by doing something even less effective. Granted.
---
It's still a nebulous thing off in the future that may or may not happen. Just because A, B and C happened doesn't mean automatically that D will happen.
So seeking developer action to limit someone else's options. Do you think you're gaining anything with that pedantic little hair split? You're still trying to limit what I can do, because you don't approve.
Do show me where I was seeking developer action. I'll be waiting.
I just shared my view that doesn't agree with the decision that has been made. And if you think I have the power to limit what you can do in game, then you're completely deluded.
Yes. Masochism. As in punishing yourself because you enjoy it or imagine some inherent value in it. Perfectly apt description of "you are getting off too easy if you don't fly through sector space."
Then you don't know what that means. And you haven't tried to understand the points I'm trying to make. You just continue jumping around.
Do show me where I was seeking developer action. I'll be waiting. I just shared my view
With whom are you sharing it? Oz the Great and Terrible? Do you or do you not hope the developers read this and take your opinions under consideration?
And if you think I have the power to limit what you can do in game, then you're completely deluded.
I suspect you would if you could, and barring that you would influence the developers if you could. Why would you state your opinion if you didn't want anyone to "read and heed"?
Then you don't know what that means.
It means exactly what I said it means. Masochists enjoy punishment inflicted on themselves. That you refuse to see your insistance on sector space travel as masochism is irrelevant.
And you haven't tried to understand the points I'm trying to make. You just continue jumping around.
In other words, I'm not giving you openings for the canned arguments you had prepared, so I must not be understanding the subtle complexities of your brilliant points. :rolleyes:
It's still a nebulous thing off in the future that may or may not happen. Just because A, B and C happened doesn't mean automatically that D will happen.
'Tis all true that the future is in a flux. But not building a road going to those special places would help, even though you get a bridge instead, just to teach us a lesson in futility. That would not be the first or last time. :P
With whom are you sharing it? Oz the Great and Terrible? Do you or do you not hope the developers read this and take your opinions under consideration?
I suspect you would if you could, and barring that you would influence the developers if you could. Why would you state your opinion if you didn't want anyone to "read and heed"?
It means exactly what I said it means. Masochists enjoy punishment inflicted on themselves. That you refuse to see your insistance on sector space travel as masochism is irrelevant.
In other words, I'm not giving you openings for the canned arguments you had prepared, so I must not be understanding the subtle complexities of your brilliant points. :rolleyes:
^^^All these quotes above prove but one thing, you're not ever reading. And it the few cases you're reading, you're not trying to undesrtand, but just jumping around looking for an argument.
Another protip: When you post something like this:
Protip: everyone who uses that condescending term without a hint of irony is a smug little jerk who should be ignored.
Then you better ignore the said person, because otherwise it just makes you look bad.
Exactly what I'm about to do, because I'm not willing to further lower the tone of the discussion on the level you want me to. Or in plain simple words - I'm done with you on this topic and I'll not reply to your nonesence any further.
I'll continue with people willing to have an intelligent discussion.
It means exactly what I said it means. Masochists enjoy punishment inflicted on themselves. That you refuse to see your insistance on sector space travel as masochism is irrelevant.
Actually, it is more a refusal of letting you define the nature of the desire which drives his intent. That you refuse to see that this is what you are doing is irrelevant.
A game is defined by its rules. The rules are the boundaries of the game. Take mazes for example. Some people like mazes. Some don't. Regardless of their preference, it is the walls of the maze that define it. Without the walls, there is no maze. Without the rules, there is no game.
Now... does engaging in an activity, which has rules and boundaries, constitute an act of masochism? Not necessarily. Finding a path around obstacles to reach an objective provides a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction. The desire is not for punishment. The desire is for reward.
Comments
No harm would come of it if they did exactly that. I dare say most peoples' enjoyment is not derived from "Adventures in Sector Space, Chapter IV, the captain takes a dump and then has a nap."
I understand it perfectly. You're not floating some revolutionary new ideas, here.
What you need to understand is that everything you just said is opinion. "Negative," "oversimplification," etc, all of it depends on everyone agreeing to your terms. Guess what? Not everyone does, and their opinions are no less valid. Not even if they make the opposite assertion, that it is a positive thing to pare down needlessly inefficient time-sinks in the game.
Yeah, I understand that and that's not what I was trying to say. I have no way of knowing how much someone cares or doesn't care about the game. Maybe came out sounding a bit wrong as English is not my native language, so sorry for that.
Thing is, at least to me, it's not about this minor insignificant change to the gameplay. Like I said in previous posts, this change is minor, not gamebreaking, not immersion breaking and but a drop in the water. The thing is the direction STO is headed into. I strongly believe that if we love the game, we must see what's best in the long run.
Imagine it as being on a crossroad, and you can either go left or right. Now if we say that left is wrong and right is well....right
:rolleyes:
Derpy slippery slope argument. Removing one needless inconvenience does not automatically translate to "instant gratification in all things."
I didn't say that it did. Missing a point does not automatically invalidate that point.
If what you're trying to do is falsly portray all quality of life changes for convenience as equally significant, that all of them contribute to "dumbing down" the game in the inevitable creep towards catering to some BS definition of "laziness," then you have no point. You just plain don't like it and don't think anyone else should, either. Too bad. It's coming and it won't be the end of the world.
Bag of Holding and similar items made this possible within the context of a fantasy genre game, and even if putting a living creature into such a thing were officially a no-no, most DMs had "house rules" and weren't hardasses bent on doing everything in their power to make the players' experience an overly tiresome one. There were also items and/or skills which would allow the player to summon a steed, sometimes at will, other times after a brief wait (much briefer than traversing many leagues to get back to the home for a new horse) or even various forms of teleportation, dimensional gates, etc.
Good on you. Many players (here and elsewhere) seem to grasp any sort of straw they can in order to discredit the views of those who disagree with them, including "Well, you've only been playing for 3 years, so you can't possibly know what things were like 'back in the day' when we who have been playing for 5 years only had one map, the level cap was 40, and you had to grind for days just to get .01% of the experience points necessary to get to the next level, and we think everyone should have to suffer the same way we did back then, because progress is bad."
Challenges which make sense and do not impose unnecessary steps which serve no real purpose other than eating up a player's time are one thing. Challenges which exist solely to make the game more time-consuming are simply laborious, boring, and detrimental to the survival of the game. It's sort of like a job in which when there's a lull in the employee's usual work, the manager blows his top about how the worker can't "Just be standing around doing nothing," so he tells the employee to grab a broom and look busy, even if the floor is perfectly clean.
I'm not trolling, and redefining words doesn't change their meaning for everyone else. You can call it "IP" till you're blue in the face. You're still talking about immersion.
MMOs thrive on time sinks. What the developer needs to do is decide what is a worth-while time sink. Is having to fly to ESD, DS9 or some other place with a proper NPC to change your ship a worth-while time sink? Not really. Flying to a base, getting a new ship, and then flying back to where you were if you wanted a new ship specifically for something you can't queue for is not a good time sink, it's an annoying time sink. Things will still need to be done at those places, like setting up your boff abilities if you need to change them, so it's not like the places will become useless.
This change could also get more people in sector space because now they don't have to sit in ESD to be able to switch to a new ship if they like doing it often enough that the above time sink is too annoying. Now they can set things up at ESD, and then hang around in sector space while still being able to do this.
It just rolls out differently, and is a bit easier to say, compared to "The cramped shoeboxes of confinement, which power lies in creating collisions between oversized monstrosities satisfying the megalomaniacs among us, to the point of absurdity, considering the scaling used. If it is used at all."
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lol I don't have to predict the inevitable creep towards catering to some BS definition of "laziness". It's already happened.
However, as I've stated previously, I don't care so much about swapping ships in sector space as I do about how that swap is manifested within the game aesthetics. It's not the laziness of the player that bothers me. It's the laziness of the developers.
This game sucks. I wouldn't care about it at all, if were not for the Star Trek IP.
It's not a nebulous idea, it's an extrapolation based on very similar things that already happened in STO in front of my very eyes.
I get your point, I really do. I even agree with you that sector space is currently nothing more than a mere time-sink that is probably considered as an unnecessary one even by the devs.
My point is, how do we go about it. What will we choose as a direction for STO. Keeping sector space by adding missions, dailies, encounters and whatever other use for it the devs. may come up with, or do we just step by step dismantle any possible use that traveling through space could have and end up in a Star Trek game without sector space?
I don't know about the rest of you, but playing a Star Trek game without sector space doesn't seem fun nor interesting at all to me.
Thank you!!
Thank you, too!!
Otherwise known as a slippery slope argument. "If you let them get around this, they'll never want to "work" for anything, ever." :rolleyes: It's illogical and BS.
100% towards individual enjoyment, which means not allowing you to deny other people options you don't approve of.
So either stop playing, or discipline yourself to always travel via sector space. The opinions of people who see no value in that display of masochism are no less valid.
That's still a nebulous idea. You don't actually know what's going to happen in the future, you're assuming that this will lead to X when it may actually lead to Y.
To be honest, a change like this would seem to make updating sector space more worthwhile not less. Allowing people to change ships to do X event, and then Y event later without having to be concerned about being in the right ship would make people more likely to do said events than not making this change and these people still just sitting around ESD.
It doesn't to me either, but it's not like this is heralding the end of sector space at all.
No one is going to be more sociable because they are forced to go to a starbase to conduct business. They will take time out from playing the game, conduct their business and get out. Those more socially inclined would already be doing so.
Now I would not suggest eliminating all need for a starbase as it makes sense to have to go there for tasks like switching ships or perhaps the exchange. But why to have a working doctor when I am beat up? Why can't my ship have a tailor? I can have an account bank on the ship but no personal bank?
TLDR: streamling the experience to spend more time flying your ship rather than preparing to fly it is nothing but good. I am not sure this change is the streamlining I would have chosen but will welcome it.
Says you. :rolleyes:
Am I? Sorry, I wasn't aware I had the power to do that, might jump in game and try that now. I thought we were all sharing different opinions and views here, but hey, since you say I have the power to deny people something maybe I should try, right? :rolleyes:
Excuse me? Who the heck do you think are you to tell me if I should stop playing or not, or what should I talk about or not?
Masochism? Dude are you for real? You're saying that in this context? Do you know what that even means?
Protip: Half of the understaning of what people post is reading, the other half is actually processing it through your brain, something I get the feeling is a foreign concept to you.
If you actually tried to comprehend what I'm trying to say instead of jumping around, maybe you'd have understood that I'm talking about things that give more and less value to the game as a whole.
But I'm probably wasting my time trying to discuss something with someone that finds it okay to have a Star Trek game without open space. What could I possibly prove to someone with that position?
Extrapolation isn't that hard, when we have some glorious examples out there, to set the bar for convenience measures. At some point you have to decide what you're going to play, or rather, avoid playing, as the case might be. Embrace the duality in that one.
Erm, well back to saurus bashing. Another unavoidable fate, bestowed upon us. Optionally solved by doing something even less effective. Granted.
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See, there's that Slippery Slope fallacy again. The ability to change ships wherever does not mean that sector space will be done away with. It's there, and it's likely to remain there, because people do like it -- at times.
I like sector space. I like traveling in it. I like that it's an option, too, and that we also have the option to transwarp.
I also like to walk when I'm not in space, rather than jog or run everywhere. I also like to run when I'm pressed for time or just don't feel like puttering along through all the obnoxious griefers on Drozana or having to be exposed any longer than necessary to the inane chatter on ESD Zone chat. I like the options to choose for myself, based on my mood at the time, or the climate of the zone at that particular moment, or the time remaining in the Bonus Marks event, or whatever.
Slippery Slope is a fallacy. A fallacy is an incorrect inference form (that is, it's an example of illogical argument).
No, that satisfied the objective definition of a slippery slope argument. It's a tactic people resort to when their objections don't carry enough weight on their own.
So seeking developer action to limit someone else's options. Do you think you're gaining anything with that pedantic little hair split? You're still trying to limit what I can do, because you don't approve.
Who I am is someone who doesn't appreciate your attempts at limiting what I can do based on your opinions.
Yes. Masochism. As in punishing yourself because you enjoy it or imagine some inherent value in it. Perfectly apt description of "you are getting off too easy if you don't fly through sector space."
Protip: everyone who uses that condescending term without a hint of irony is a smug little jerk who should be ignored.
It's actually not. And if you've read my other posts in this thread than you know that I never said this decision would be the end of sector space or DOOOOM! :P
Now don't take this as some grandpa sitting on a rocking chair and starting a story like "when I was young..." lol :P or as not valuing opinions of new players (because when anyone joined STO doesn't make a difference in a discussion), but back in the day sector space had more value than it has now. And there were similar discussions. One of them was the random NPC encounters - some people complained that it's bugging them and unconvinient for them to be randomly attacked by NPCs, others said that it's good because it brings a feel of realism to the space travel. But the first group inisited that "you choose if you want to have NPC encounters in space or not and don't enforce your view on us!". And than Cryptic turned them in the red dots we have today, basically leaving then as a remnant of the past instead of developing the concept and adding more value to it. And it lead to Cryptic not even bothering to put these 'red dots' in new sector blocks anymore.
So when you have no use for sector space, who's to say that the devs. won't just decide to kill it one day in order to save on resources and add a site-to-site warp option? You probably know as well as me that they won't ask protogoth or shpoks wheather we like travelling through sector space with our ships, they'll look at metrics and their metrics will say that everyone is using the easy route - because that's human nature. And after than neither me nor you will have that priviledge, cause it'll be gone.
Not saying this will happen, but there is a slight possibility.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say - everyone should be forced to crawl through the uninteresting , unimaginative and completely off-scale sector space that we have in STO today. What I'm saying is that instead of trying to cut through that boring time-sink sector space has turned into, why not starting to add something of value, something fun and engaging that wouldn't leave people feeling like they're doing a chore.
At the end of the day, as someone else said, our discussion here will not change anything. It's already been decided, not because you like it, but because the devs said so. If tommorow D'an wakes up on the wrong foot, he may decide not to do it, and it wouldn't be because I said not to, but because he decided.
The point of me making my argument here is purely because upon these decisions Cryptic has already made, if some of them decide to read through the thread they can see that there are different opinions and people who care about the sector space or other stuff mentioned and consider that in their future decisions as well.
What you're describing bears little or no resemblance to sector space as it exists now. Give me something other than watching my ship creep across a map, and I might be on board. But it needs to be fun and benefit my advancement in the game, and not just an empty demonstration of my "worthiness" according to someone else's narrow, self-serving definition.
It's still a nebulous thing off in the future that may or may not happen. Just because A, B and C happened doesn't mean automatically that D will happen.
Do show me where I was seeking developer action. I'll be waiting.
I just shared my view that doesn't agree with the decision that has been made. And if you think I have the power to limit what you can do in game, then you're completely deluded.
Oh dear. You didn't even understand that simple question.
Then you don't know what that means. And you haven't tried to understand the points I'm trying to make. You just continue jumping around.
Right back at you.
With whom are you sharing it? Oz the Great and Terrible? Do you or do you not hope the developers read this and take your opinions under consideration?
I suspect you would if you could, and barring that you would influence the developers if you could. Why would you state your opinion if you didn't want anyone to "read and heed"?
It means exactly what I said it means. Masochists enjoy punishment inflicted on themselves. That you refuse to see your insistance on sector space travel as masochism is irrelevant.
In other words, I'm not giving you openings for the canned arguments you had prepared, so I must not be understanding the subtle complexities of your brilliant points. :rolleyes:
'Tis all true that the future is in a flux. But not building a road going to those special places would help, even though you get a bridge instead, just to teach us a lesson in futility. That would not be the first or last time. :P
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I already said that.
Already said that.
Whatever makes you sleep an night.
^^^All these quotes above prove but one thing, you're not ever reading. And it the few cases you're reading, you're not trying to undesrtand, but just jumping around looking for an argument.
Another protip: When you post something like this:
Then you better ignore the said person, because otherwise it just makes you look bad.
Exactly what I'm about to do, because I'm not willing to further lower the tone of the discussion on the level you want me to. Or in plain simple words - I'm done with you on this topic and I'll not reply to your nonesence any further.
I'll continue with people willing to have an intelligent discussion.
Actually, it is more a refusal of letting you define the nature of the desire which drives his intent. That you refuse to see that this is what you are doing is irrelevant.
A game is defined by its rules. The rules are the boundaries of the game. Take mazes for example. Some people like mazes. Some don't. Regardless of their preference, it is the walls of the maze that define it. Without the walls, there is no maze. Without the rules, there is no game.
Now... does engaging in an activity, which has rules and boundaries, constitute an act of masochism? Not necessarily. Finding a path around obstacles to reach an objective provides a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction. The desire is not for punishment. The desire is for reward.