As far as clothing goes- it is partly conditioning- the gaming world finds it hard to get out of the WoW Chainmail bikini mindset. In some cases, that doesn't matter *so* much- but in a game that divides tops into 'tight' and 'loose', that distinction really ought to mean something. The Wrath of Khan jacket is about the only one I can think of that wears like an actual *jacket* rather than being deliberately figure-hugging.
Yeah, that's my gripe too... WoK jacket is actually about the only one closest to feeling like actual jacket... hate the fact every uniform 'hugs' the female body shape so rigorously. Which is why I'd love to see the devs to do something about that - even if it's giving us a male torso option as a bodytype selection - it'd be still better than what we have now.
As for the armours... yeah, don't let me even get started on that - as someone who's wore real armor for like 10 years, as I've been participating in medieval reenactement and in fact do own a set of plate armor.. all these bodily shaped things are a nonsense and totally not sternum-safe. Alas...
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Yeah, that's my gripe too... WoK jacket is actually about the only one closest to feeling like actual jacket... hate the fact every uniform 'hugs' the female body shape so rigorously. Which is why I'd love to see the devs to do something about that - even if it's giving us a male torso option as a bodytype selection - it'd be still better than what we have now.
Can males get a female torso body option then? :eek:
Edit: Hell, let's go full on complete male/female whole body options for both sexes. Then maybe 'shapeshifting' aliens would actually work~
Can males get a female torso body option then? :eek:
Edit: Hell, let's go full on complete male/female whole body options for both sexes. Then maybe 'shapeshifting' aliens would actually work~
The only reason I am suggesting giving a male torso, or something really close to it, as a choice of body type is, to allow those, who want the jacket and uniforms to cover all the assets, as they should, instead of what the females have now, all uniforms hugging the body so rigorously... <.<
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The only reason I am suggesting giving a male torso, or something really close to it, as a choice of body type is, to allow those, who want the jacket and uniforms to cover all the assets, as they should, instead of what the females have now, all uniforms hugging the body so rigorously... <.<
But then it would be a male torso, and not a female torso with a DFC and/or loose-fitting clothing.
I don't think that we should go through as many lengths to do this as you're suggesting. Let's be reasonable here... I'm all for more options and wanting everyone satisfied(except for the ones that want someone else not satisfied), but I'm not sure this is the solution.
Are you wanting a DFC on your character? Or average-sized TRIBBLE that are bound or more covered? You're emphasizing the look of what you want, but not the nature of it. I'm not sure that 'covering' one's TRIBBLE up completely is an option for most female characters. I do think that the ones who have smaller-sized chests are more reasonable to consider with this though, but anyone whose TRIBBLE aren't near the lowest scale are still gonna be showing curves regardless.
I don't know if it's what you mean, but yes, STO's female uniforms do 'hug' the TRIBBLE a bit more than the ones in the shows or movies. But who's to say that's not the creative direction they wanted to go in? It could very well be that in fiction, material that can fit the female form better was invented, and the women of Starfleet(or the other facs for that matter) made them standard issue. Or something. I'm not saying there shouldn't be alternatives, I'm just thinking of in-universe justifications as to why the uniforms are how they are.
There are just more reasonable ways to get what you're wanting, IMO.
(...)
I don't know if it's what you mean, but yes, STO's female uniforms do 'hug' the TRIBBLE a bit more than the ones in the shows or movies. But who's to say that's not the creative direction they wanted to go in? It could very well be that in fiction, material that can fit the female form better was invented, and the women of Starfleet(or the other facs for that matter) made them standard issue. Or something. I'm not saying there shouldn't be alternatives, I'm just thinking of in-universe justifications as to why the uniforms are how they are.
(...)
You know the explanation why women, even on the shows, got skin-tight catsuits. And it's not an in-universe one Remember that even Kira in DS9 got a "sexy makeover" - it's actually a good thing that bringing a model to the show that couldn't act (ENT) did not safe that show, though STO decides to play it safe to appeal to the teenage male demographic that make the majority of potential players.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
You know the explanation why women, even on the shows, got skin-tight catsuits. And it's not an in-universe one Remember that even Kira in DS9 got a "sexy makeover" - it's actually a good thing that bringing a model to the show that couldn't act (ENT) did not safe that show, though STO decides to play it safe to appeal to the teenage male demographic that make the majority of potential players.
Of course I know IRL reasons why it happens. But those are irrelevant when appealing to continuity.
Can males get a female torso body option then? :eek:
Edit: Hell, let's go full on complete male/female whole body options for both sexes. Then maybe 'shapeshifting' aliens would actually work~
Excellent Idea! I would fully support that as I have several trans friends who at this moment have both male and female attributes...and the great part is that they are complete nerds (possibly more than me :eek:) so we could totally geek out with our characters considering we try to make them look as close to ourselves as possible...good thing im gorgeous :cool: naw naw i kid, but still.
But then it would be a male torso, and not a female torso with a DFC and/or loose-fitting clothing.
I don't think that we should go through as many lengths to do this as you're suggesting. Let's be reasonable here... I'm all for more options and wanting everyone satisfied(except for the ones that want someone else not satisfied), but I'm not sure this is the solution.
Are you wanting a DFC on your character? Or average-sized TRIBBLE that are bound or more covered? You're emphasizing the look of what you want, but not the nature of it. I'm not sure that 'covering' one's TRIBBLE up completely is an option for most female characters. I do think that the ones who have smaller-sized chests are more reasonable to consider with this though, but anyone whose TRIBBLE aren't near the lowest scale are still gonna be showing curves regardless.
I don't know if it's what you mean, but yes, STO's female uniforms do 'hug' the TRIBBLE a bit more than the ones in the shows or movies. But who's to say that's not the creative direction they wanted to go in? It could very well be that in fiction, material that can fit the female form better was invented, and the women of Starfleet(or the other facs for that matter) made them standard issue. Or something. I'm not saying there shouldn't be alternatives, I'm just thinking of in-universe justifications as to why the uniforms are how they are.
There are just more reasonable ways to get what you're wanting, IMO.
I've posted images of real life military women in uniforms somewhere, and some of them had curves hidden pretty well.
Quite frankly, the (maybe slightly modified) male torso is the least work for devs, for getting the desired effect, where you actually hide the curves. I really don't like the fact that every uniform 'hugs' the female body so religiously, and it doesn't even look the female character wears an actual uniform jacket at all. Sure, there are tight outfits, but when every outfit is like that.... just uh-huh... no. Quite frankly, I'd take this even if I had to pay Zen for the additional body-type - yes, that bad I dislike the WoW'esque stereotype of metal bikini, which put emphasis on underlining the female features so bad, that teenage male demographic is satisfied enough.
Sure, they could go lenghts modifying the breast slider for making the minimum size really minimum (which one of the graphics artists said they might do, along with adding waist slider), but the work involved in that is more involving than just re-shaping and re-scaling the male torso, and adding it as a bodytype to female characters.
Just so you know where I am coming from, orangeitis.
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Duh, you and me are exact opposite. I'd pay fracking Zen for as small TRIBBLE as the male one, and no excessive... "in your face" thing.
But, doesn't change the fact that the character creator surely should add more choices than we have now.
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Lack of parity between Orion males and females in terms of sexiness in dress and slider settings (even more obvious if you try to use the male face sliders -- you get a permanent scowl):
He has some backside, but it's not shaped well and the clothing definitely doesn't accentuate it like it does for the women. Instead, his lower back and glutes are not tapered properly. So the top curve for the glutes is lost, replaced with an unattractive wedge shape. Shirtless male arms in particular are not very attractive-looking, too, when viewed from the front. They tend to look gristly/stringy when standing and blocky in other positions:
The shading also makes the character look scrawny by exaggerating the shadows.
Duh, you and me are exact opposite. I'd pay fracking Zen for as small TRIBBLE as the male one, and no excessive... "in your face" thing.
But, doesn't change the fact that the character creator surely should add more choices than we have now.
I don't begrudge anyone options. I just think there should be parity. I also think diversity is a good thing. As you showed with your military uniforms, there is more than enough evidence to show that women don't always have to be kittens when in uniform.
Also, some of the troubles are a lack of accurate anatomy. That includes the front of males' pants.
We have a big difference in terms of NPC sexiness, too. Here is an example from the Dyson ground battlezone:
Very prominent TRIBBLE, make-up, attractive facial features, neutral expression.
Heterosexual male fantasy of the dominant mechanized male. Negative expression. Giant robotic body with skin and curves as hidden as possible.
The difference is night and day.
The Romulan males near them are not as dramatic as an example, but they are still plenty obvious with their bland skin, bland shape hiding clothing, and less youthful faces complete with the unavoidable stubble and deep fissures.
Here's another problem. I believe I mentioned the "too vertical tapering" issue before, but this picture shows it even more dramatically. The guy doesn't have two glutes.
The shading gives the behind more prominence with this outfit than with some others, but it's not anatomically accurate or appealing. The tapering is too extreme vertically/diagonally and the glutes aren't wide enough.
Here is what the taper should look more like. Notice how there's a top curve, not a continual slab shape where the back and glutes meet. Notice also how the glutes go all the way to the edge of the hip, horizontally.
Notice here the separation between the sides, which is missing in the STO pic above:
#55 shows both the separation and tapering that is lacking in the STO model:
We have a big difference in terms of NPC sexiness, too. Here is an example from the Dyson ground battlezone:
[IMG][/img]Heterosexual male fantasy of the dominant mechanized male. Negative expression. Giant robotic body with skin and curves as hidden as possible.
The difference is night and day.
I would very much appreciate it if you didn't say it like that. I find it very sexist to attribute this artistic style to that, and to imply that no other demographic would do it that way. And this instance is cherry picking. So what if the battlezone has characters made a certain way? You can make a female character look as grumpy and unsexual as that guy. At least with the MACO armor.
Though admittedly, I do agree your overall point. Men should get makeup options and whatnot.
The Romulan males near them are not as dramatic as an example, but they are still plenty obvious with their bland skin, bland shape hiding clothing, and less youthful faces complete with the unavoidable stubble and deep fissures.
[IMG][/img]
Yeah, we need an option to turn off that annoying stubble...
Here's another problem. I believe I mentioned the "too vertical tapering" issue before, but this picture shows it even more dramatically. The guy doesn't have two glutes.
The shading gives the behind more prominence with this outfit than with some others, but it's not anatomically accurate or appealing. The tapering is too extreme vertically/diagonally and the glutes aren't wide enough.
Here is what the taper should look more like. Notice how there's a top curve, not a continual slab shape where the back and glutes meet. Notice also how the glutes go all the way to the edge of the hip, horizontally.
[IMG]Notice here the separation between the sides, which is missing in the STO pic above:[/img][IMG]#55 shows both the separation and tapering that is lacking in the STO model:[/img][img][/img]
No, that's not what it should look like IMO. Those are football outfits, not starfleet uniforms. Normally in everyday life, a woman's butt does bulge out more than a man's, especially in jeans. Football tights are designed to hold up through aggressive physical activity, so they're not good examples of how we should design uniforms not made for that.
Besides, that's probably the style in the 25th century.
I would very much appreciate it if you didn't say it like that. I find it very sexist to attribute this artistic style to that, and to imply that no other demographic would do it that way. And this instance is cherry picking. So what if the battlezone has characters made a certain way? You can make a female character look as grumpy and unsexual as that guy. At least with the MACO armor.
Though admittedly, I do agree your overall point. Men should get makeup options and whatnot.
Yeah, we need an option to turn off that annoying stubble...
Looks like he does to me. =p
No, that's not what it should look like IMO. Those are football outfits, not starfleet uniforms. Normally in everyday life, a woman's butt does bulge out more than a man's, especially in jeans. Football tights are designed to hold up through aggressive physical activity, so they're not good examples of how we should design uniforms not made for that.
Besides, that's probably the style in the 25th century.
I can understand why you are put off by someone calling it that, and you dude may be an awesome exception to the rule, but man its 99% the truth as far as I have seen it implemented for a long time. You can certainly make a female ugly, but in the game she is always going to have a certain more sexualized appearance than the males.
I can not honestly think of females in the game (Cryptic made) that are anything but sexy, with trim waists, save the little pig Tellerites, but I have never seen an overweight Female of any species comparable to one of the pudgy Dahar Masters. And the plain old fact is that the gaming industry is still very Straight Male, so we get alot of that in the games. It may be hard to see, but I think thats because its is so interwoven in them from the ground up.
*Small tangent* not directed at you Orangeitis cuz I think your an exception to the generality, but its all true from my not straight point of view.
Qiite frankly, there needs to be diversity. Males need to be given more options, as well as females. Don't think many people would argue that fact. And like I said, I'd pay Zen for these diverse changes... because like it or not orangeitis, females are made to look sexy for hetero male demography; that's sadly a fact, while males are done in the macho way, again, to support male ideals. I know quite a big deal about silly gender concepts, and still think these so called 'ideals' should be blown out of existence. Just saying.
And honestly, if the devs add more options, I don't care if others want to have their sexy kittens or macho males, let them have it, but for crying out loud, give us more options, for both genders...
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Qiite frankly, there needs to be diversity. Males need to be given more options, as well as females. Don't think many people would argue that fact. And like I said, I'd pay Zen for these diverse changes... because like it or not orangeitis, females are made to look sexy for hetero male demography; that's sadly a fact, while males are done in the macho way, again, to support male ideals. I know quite a big deal about silly gender concepts, and still think these so called 'ideals' should be blown out of existence. Just saying.
And honestly, if the devs add more options, I don't care if others want to have their sexy kittens or macho males, let them have it, but for crying out loud, give us more options, for both genders...
On the macho way men, I cant make my mother shut up about how unappealing and ugly these thin, feminine singer boys of today are.
And she is not alone.
I found that most of the 30+ female demographic around East Europe prefers "Chuck Norris style" males to say, "Tokio Hotel style" males.
The Metrosexual episode of South Park had the same thing too.
And I do think that Kirk in a ripped shirt was eye candy for females, not males. At least, in intent.
So it may not only be the males that like men with big muscles, lot of facial hair and rough features.
Mind, in a game, it will be designed for the target demograhpy, simple because that's the most money-efficient way of making it.
Like how Trollface launch, a troll game, has a "Super" upgrade that trolls you and is always just a few dollars more than you can afford.
Products will always try to caper to the target demographic I'm afraid, that's a given for a money based society.
And they'll try to target a demographic that is relativly widespread and common. The more people buy X, the better it is for the company.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
I can not honestly think of females in the game (Cryptic made) that are anything but sexy, with trim waists, save the little pig Tellerites, but I have never seen an overweight Female of any species comparable to one of the pudgy Dahar Masters. And the plain old fact is that the gaming industry is still very Straight Male, so we get alot of that in the games. It may be hard to see, but I think thats because its is so interwoven in them from the ground up.
What does being straight male have anything to do with it? What do you think makes other demographics immune to making games like this? Why do you think that if the 'very Straight Male' developers and whatnot were of a different demographic, the games would be so much different?
Why not just give good reasons for each game aspect to be the way you think it should be, rather than imply that it's the fault of the demographic that creates it?
On the macho way men, I cant make my mother shut up about how unappealing and ugly these thin, feminine singer boys of today are.
And she is not alone.
I found that most of the 30+ female demographic around East Europe prefers "Chuck Norris style" males to say, "Tokio Hotel style" males.
The Metrosexual episode of South Park had the same thing too.
And I do think that Kirk in a ripped shirt was eye candy for females, not males. At least, in intent.
So it may not only be the males that like men with big muscles, lot of facial hair and rough features.
It's not only appeal to the opposite sex that shapes a media or fiction. It's also wanting to appeal to the opposite sex. The Kirk ripped shirt scene might not have been created by females just because it appeals to females... the same way goes for body shape in games like this. Sure, the Orions do need to be bigger and more muscly(besides, it's canon that they're larger than human males), but the fact that the female characters have such form-fitting clothing doesn't have to be the fault of a horny male development team. It could even be the work of an all-female team that wants to appeal to a different demographic than themselves.
Well, one of the art development team members said they'd possibly look into adding a waist slider & reducing the size of TRIBBLE on the minimal setting for females... so, it's still better than nothing, if it comes to be done. I see no reason to argue with tplelena or anyone else about how targeting specific demography attracts them more => there's also the logic, that MMO titles can attract even wider spectre of players, if there's more variety & I honestly see no reason to not add that variety - and people speaking against it are just a taaaaad too selfish.
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Well, one of the art development team members said they'd possibly look into adding a waist slider & reducing the size of TRIBBLE on the minimal setting for females... so, it's still better than nothing, if it comes to be done. I see no reason to argue with tplelena or anyone else about how targeting specific demography attracts them more => there's also the logic, that MMO titles can attract even wider spectre of players, if there's more variety & I honestly see no reason to not add that variety - and people speaking against it are just a taaaaad too selfish.
That's all down to the economics of it I'm afraid.
Think of it like a measuring scale.
One one end, is the money they get from other demographics, on the other end is the money it costs to add such extra features.
Altering scales should not be too much trouble though (or cost much money), adding new ones may be a tad bit harder, but still not that hard.
Adding completely new models is more expensive, if you want it done in quality.
Though altering scales too much does run the risk of texture troubles.
It may also be partly that the devs have limited resource, and would rather spend that on "Shiny Next lockbox ship" *. Though I did hear they got more staff recently, so that may no longer be true. Sorry not sure on that one.
* Said ship is the "Ferengi Cashbringer" Which is a flanking 5 forward 4 rear weapons universal BO slots battlecruiser with 6 tac consoles, 5 eng and 4 science. Has 0.0001% chance of drop per Cash Lockbox.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
That's all down to the economics of it I'm afraid.
Think of it like a measuring scale.
One one end, is the money they get from other demographics, on the other end is the money it costs to add such extra features.
Altering scales should not be too much trouble though (or cost much money), adding new ones may be a tad bit harder, but still not that hard.
Adding completely new models is more expensive, if you want it done in quality.
Though altering scales too much does run the risk of texture troubles.
It may also be partly that the devs have limited resource, and would rather spend that on "Shiny Next lockbox ship" *. Though I did hear they got more staff recently, so that may no longer be true. Sorry not sure on that one.
* Said ship is the "Ferengi Cashbringer" Which is a flanking 5 forward 4 rear weapons universal BO slots battlecruiser with 6 tac consoles, 5 eng and 4 science. Has 0.0001% chance of drop per Cash Lockbox.
Isn't that drop rate a little high?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Well, one of the art development team members said they'd possibly look into adding a waist slider & reducing the size of TRIBBLE on the minimal setting for females... so, it's still better than nothing, if it comes to be done. I see no reason to argue with tplelena or anyone else about how targeting specific demography attracts them more => there's also the logic, that MMO titles can attract even wider spectre of players, if there's more variety & I honestly see no reason to not add that variety - and people speaking against it are just a taaaaad too selfish.
Indeed, it is selfish. The only things that you can reasonably argue against more options is 1-cost of adding the options, and 2-If the options in cases like this are even remotely 'realistic'. And since we're playing a game with aliens that are of almost every shape and size, the only obstacle would be development cost.
I do want to point out that the target demographic has started to change as the MMO's themselves have changed. It is no secret that developers are casting a wider net and going for the more casual players. That being said I think that these classic gender forms and models (big burly men, small sexy women) will be pushed against as a wider range people people start playing.
So eventually we should get more of these options that we all want, but I suppose right now there just isnt enough of us asking for them.
And Orangeitis I looked at your Big Booty Tutorial, its pretty nifty, eventually ill have to get ingame and check it out for the male toons.
As a straight male in the 18-38 demographic who appreciates a very voluptuous female form, and thinks a man is not a man without some facial hair, I support the option to have differently shaped and proportioned male and female characters, extra sliders, boyish faces, men with bubble butts, and women with less curves. Why? Because options are good, and what I think looks hot/good is not necessarily what someone else thinks looks hot/good. I will always stand for more options, even if I, personally, would never use those options, because I'd like for others to do the same for me. The Golden Rule and all that.
Well, one of the art development team members said they'd possibly look into adding a waist slider & reducing the size of TRIBBLE on the minimal setting for females... so, it's still better than nothing, if it comes to be done. I see no reason to argue with tplelena or anyone else about how targeting specific demography attracts them more => there's also the logic, that MMO titles can attract even wider spectre of players, if there's more variety & I honestly see no reason to not add that variety - and people speaking against it are just a taaaaad too selfish.
I see LGBT fleet members all over the place in this game and I know there are hetero women who play. And, not all LGBT players are in LGBT fleets.
Some like to assume that the only demographic is youngish hetero guys. It's not. And, it's a self-fulfilling thing to make a product that appeals to a certain demographic and then claim that there's no reason to broaden it because it wouldn't be popular with the shortchanged demographic.
And, as far as development cost goes... Look at how much better the rear of the regular EV suits look on guys than most uniforms do. It's not like it's terribly difficult and requires a new engine to make some improvements.
As a straight male in the 18-38 demographic who appreciates a very voluptuous female form, and thinks a man is not a man without some facial hair, I support the option to have differently shaped and proportioned male and female characters, extra sliders, boyish faces, men with bubble butts, and women with less curves. Why? Because options are good, and what I think looks hot/good is not necessarily what someone else thinks looks hot/good. I will always stand for more options, even if I, personally, would never use those options, because I'd like for others to do the same for me. The Golden Rule and all that.
No, that's not what it should look like IMO. Those are football outfits, not starfleet uniforms.
Men with curves exist outside of football body types and outside of football clothes. There are plenty of skinny young guys with them, and swimmers in particular. Ballet dancers are gigantic, and figure skaters also tend to be on the large side. Gymnasts are also curved all over.
Normally in everyday life, a woman's butt does bulge out more than a man's, especially in jeans.
It depends a great deal on the person. Many women are flat back there, especially Japanese. And, "normally" is not really the target. We're talking about body sliders that are supposed to encompass aliens, space travel -- lots of diversity.
That includes athletic men who have curves and slim men who have them. Some men are quite curvy, actually. This tends to be more common with swimmers and soccer players. As with TRIBBLE, youth keeps things more perky.
Football tights are designed to hold up through aggressive physical activity, so they're not good examples of how we should design uniforms not made for that.
Are you serious? None of the uniforms are made for serious physical activity?
Comments
As for the armours... yeah, don't let me even get started on that - as someone who's wore real armor for like 10 years, as I've been participating in medieval reenactement and in fact do own a set of plate armor.. all these bodily shaped things are a nonsense and totally not sternum-safe. Alas...
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Edit: Hell, let's go full on complete male/female whole body options for both sexes. Then maybe 'shapeshifting' aliens would actually work~
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"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
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I don't think that we should go through as many lengths to do this as you're suggesting. Let's be reasonable here... I'm all for more options and wanting everyone satisfied(except for the ones that want someone else not satisfied), but I'm not sure this is the solution.
Are you wanting a DFC on your character? Or average-sized TRIBBLE that are bound or more covered? You're emphasizing the look of what you want, but not the nature of it. I'm not sure that 'covering' one's TRIBBLE up completely is an option for most female characters. I do think that the ones who have smaller-sized chests are more reasonable to consider with this though, but anyone whose TRIBBLE aren't near the lowest scale are still gonna be showing curves regardless.
I don't know if it's what you mean, but yes, STO's female uniforms do 'hug' the TRIBBLE a bit more than the ones in the shows or movies. But who's to say that's not the creative direction they wanted to go in? It could very well be that in fiction, material that can fit the female form better was invented, and the women of Starfleet(or the other facs for that matter) made them standard issue. Or something. I'm not saying there shouldn't be alternatives, I'm just thinking of in-universe justifications as to why the uniforms are how they are.
There are just more reasonable ways to get what you're wanting, IMO.
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You know the explanation why women, even on the shows, got skin-tight catsuits. And it's not an in-universe one
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Excellent Idea! I would fully support that as I have several trans friends who at this moment have both male and female attributes...and the great part is that they are complete nerds (possibly more than me :eek:) so we could totally geek out with our characters considering we try to make them look as close to ourselves as possible...good thing im gorgeous :cool: naw naw i kid, but still.
-Seacat
Quite frankly, the (maybe slightly modified) male torso is the least work for devs, for getting the desired effect, where you actually hide the curves. I really don't like the fact that every uniform 'hugs' the female body so religiously, and it doesn't even look the female character wears an actual uniform jacket at all. Sure, there are tight outfits, but when every outfit is like that.... just uh-huh... no. Quite frankly, I'd take this even if I had to pay Zen for the additional body-type - yes, that bad I dislike the WoW'esque stereotype of metal bikini, which put emphasis on underlining the female features so bad, that teenage male demographic is satisfied enough.
Sure, they could go lenghts modifying the breast slider for making the minimum size really minimum (which one of the graphics artists said they might do, along with adding waist slider), but the work involved in that is more involving than just re-shaping and re-scaling the male torso, and adding it as a bodytype to female characters.
Just so you know where I am coming from, orangeitis.
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There is no male outfit or slider setting in the game that can come close to the "in your face" nature of this.
Almost no behind (the guy) versus a very prominent one (the girl):
But, doesn't change the fact that the character creator surely should add more choices than we have now.
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He has some backside, but it's not shaped well and the clothing definitely doesn't accentuate it like it does for the women. Instead, his lower back and glutes are not tapered properly. So the top curve for the glutes is lost, replaced with an unattractive wedge shape. Shirtless male arms in particular are not very attractive-looking, too, when viewed from the front. They tend to look gristly/stringy when standing and blocky in other positions:
The shading also makes the character look scrawny by exaggerating the shadows.
I don't begrudge anyone options. I just think there should be parity. I also think diversity is a good thing. As you showed with your military uniforms, there is more than enough evidence to show that women don't always have to be kittens when in uniform.
Also, some of the troubles are a lack of accurate anatomy. That includes the front of males' pants.
Very prominent TRIBBLE, make-up, attractive facial features, neutral expression.
Heterosexual male fantasy of the dominant mechanized male. Negative expression. Giant robotic body with skin and curves as hidden as possible.
The difference is night and day.
The Romulan males near them are not as dramatic as an example, but they are still plenty obvious with their bland skin, bland shape hiding clothing, and less youthful faces complete with the unavoidable stubble and deep fissures.
The shading gives the behind more prominence with this outfit than with some others, but it's not anatomically accurate or appealing. The tapering is too extreme vertically/diagonally and the glutes aren't wide enough.
Here is what the taper should look more like. Notice how there's a top curve, not a continual slab shape where the back and glutes meet. Notice also how the glutes go all the way to the edge of the hip, horizontally.
Notice here the separation between the sides, which is missing in the STO pic above:
#55 shows both the separation and tapering that is lacking in the STO model:
Though admittedly, I do agree your overall point. Men should get makeup options and whatnot.
Yeah, we need an option to turn off that annoying stubble...
Looks like he does to me. =p
No, that's not what it should look like IMO. Those are football outfits, not starfleet uniforms. Normally in everyday life, a woman's butt does bulge out more than a man's, especially in jeans. Football tights are designed to hold up through aggressive physical activity, so they're not good examples of how we should design uniforms not made for that.
Besides, that's probably the style in the 25th century.
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I can understand why you are put off by someone calling it that, and you dude may be an awesome exception to the rule, but man its 99% the truth as far as I have seen it implemented for a long time. You can certainly make a female ugly, but in the game she is always going to have a certain more sexualized appearance than the males.
I can not honestly think of females in the game (Cryptic made) that are anything but sexy, with trim waists, save the little pig Tellerites, but I have never seen an overweight Female of any species comparable to one of the pudgy Dahar Masters. And the plain old fact is that the gaming industry is still very Straight Male, so we get alot of that in the games. It may be hard to see, but I think thats because its is so interwoven in them from the ground up.
*Small tangent* not directed at you Orangeitis cuz I think your an exception to the generality, but its all true from my not straight point of view.
-Seacat
And honestly, if the devs add more options, I don't care if others want to have their sexy kittens or macho males, let them have it, but for crying out loud, give us more options, for both genders...
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On the macho way men, I cant make my mother shut up about how unappealing and ugly these thin, feminine singer boys of today are.
And she is not alone.
I found that most of the 30+ female demographic around East Europe prefers "Chuck Norris style" males to say, "Tokio Hotel style" males.
The Metrosexual episode of South Park had the same thing too.
And I do think that Kirk in a ripped shirt was eye candy for females, not males. At least, in intent.
So it may not only be the males that like men with big muscles, lot of facial hair and rough features.
Mind, in a game, it will be designed for the target demograhpy, simple because that's the most money-efficient way of making it.
Like how Trollface launch, a troll game, has a "Super" upgrade that trolls you and is always just a few dollars more than you can afford.
Products will always try to caper to the target demographic I'm afraid, that's a given for a money based society.
And they'll try to target a demographic that is relativly widespread and common. The more people buy X, the better it is for the company.
Why not just give good reasons for each game aspect to be the way you think it should be, rather than imply that it's the fault of the demographic that creates it?
I understand completely. =D
It's not only appeal to the opposite sex that shapes a media or fiction. It's also wanting to appeal to the opposite sex. The Kirk ripped shirt scene might not have been created by females just because it appeals to females... the same way goes for body shape in games like this. Sure, the Orions do need to be bigger and more muscly(besides, it's canon that they're larger than human males), but the fact that the female characters have such form-fitting clothing doesn't have to be the fault of a horny male development team. It could even be the work of an all-female team that wants to appeal to a different demographic than themselves.
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"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
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That's all down to the economics of it I'm afraid.
Think of it like a measuring scale.
One one end, is the money they get from other demographics, on the other end is the money it costs to add such extra features.
Altering scales should not be too much trouble though (or cost much money), adding new ones may be a tad bit harder, but still not that hard.
Adding completely new models is more expensive, if you want it done in quality.
Though altering scales too much does run the risk of texture troubles.
It may also be partly that the devs have limited resource, and would rather spend that on "Shiny Next lockbox ship" *. Though I did hear they got more staff recently, so that may no longer be true. Sorry not sure on that one.
* Said ship is the "Ferengi Cashbringer" Which is a flanking 5 forward 4 rear weapons universal BO slots battlecruiser with 6 tac consoles, 5 eng and 4 science. Has 0.0001% chance of drop per Cash Lockbox.
Isn't that drop rate a little high?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
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So eventually we should get more of these options that we all want, but I suppose right now there just isnt enough of us asking for them.
And Orangeitis I looked at your Big Booty Tutorial, its pretty nifty, eventually ill have to get ingame and check it out for the male toons.
-Seacat
Post results. :P
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Some like to assume that the only demographic is youngish hetero guys. It's not. And, it's a self-fulfilling thing to make a product that appeals to a certain demographic and then claim that there's no reason to broaden it because it wouldn't be popular with the shortchanged demographic.
And, as far as development cost goes... Look at how much better the rear of the regular EV suits look on guys than most uniforms do. It's not like it's terribly difficult and requires a new engine to make some improvements. thumbs up
That includes athletic men who have curves and slim men who have them. Some men are quite curvy, actually. This tends to be more common with swimmers and soccer players. As with TRIBBLE, youth keeps things more perky. Are you serious? None of the uniforms are made for serious physical activity?