No, I feel justified in pointing out that you are usually not as important to other people as you are to yourself, and that includes your extra-special body image preferences.
No, I feel justified in pointing out that you are usually not as important to other people as you are to yourself, and that includes your extra-special body image preferences.
You certainly are not a person who can feel happy when others get what they wish for, eh? More like the person who fights every inch, to be negative, so people don't get what they want... :P
It's funny, because I feel it's better to support ideas which expand the game, offer more choices, rather than being that negative nay sayer to everything, that does not fit your own agenda... oh well. Glad you are not the one making this game. :P
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
An argument that contains an insult is still an argument. It's only an ad hominem if the insult is the only thing there.
If the argument's basis in an insult, like that one was, then it's ad hominem.
The argument's basis is that I have "a personal problem". That is ad hominem.
Sure, we can tease out an argument, despite the three or four "personal problem" references in the paragraph, but is that really worthwhile? It all comes down to the idea that I am such an aberration that my point of view is invalid and/or that the game should not appeal to individuals and should instead appeal to some monolithic average.
Of course it's obvious that there are diminishing returns in anything, but when there are quite significant oversights in a product -- such as the inability to represent the range of masculine and feminine and sexy to unsexy -- which are both very important factors in humanity (especially in something utopian like a Trek MMO where people design their own avatars) -- then pointing at me is ad hominem distraction.
One can't even make a real blonde or red-haired man in this game because of the dark brown beard stubble. Please don't tell me that blonde and red-haired men are so unimportant/uncommon that I have a personal problem because I think they should be able to represent themselves. Moreover, since there is no youthful complexion option, perhaps the largest video game demographic (males 15-25) can't make an avatar that represents them with greater accuracy. As far as I know MMO players shift older, but there are plenty in their twenties and late teens that play this I bet.
That implies that some don't find male-shaped females sexy...
No, seriously. Jodarkrider, you know I'm on your side about the whole character tailoring freedom thing, but you're constantly emphasizing about how it's to have a choice to not be sexy. I'm sorry, but "being sexy" is strictly a matter of opinion, and there are indeed people out there that find women with manly bodies attractive. If you're doing this against attractiveness, I believe that it's for the wrong reasons.
Sorry, but as a rationalist, I'm gonna have to step in when I see a flaw in reasoning.
If the argument's basis in an insult, like that one was, then it's ad hominem.
The argument's basis is that I have "a personal problem". That is ad hominem.
Sure, we can tease out an argument, despite the three or four "personal problem" references in the paragraph, but is that really worthwhile? It all comes down to the idea that I am such an aberration that my point of view is invalid and/or that the game should not appeal to individuals and should instead appeal to some monolithic average.
Of course it's obvious that there are diminishing returns in anything, but when there are quite significant oversights in a product -- such as the inability to represent the range of masculine and feminine and sexy to unsexy -- which are both very important factors in humanity (especially in something utopian like a Trek MMO where people design their own avatars) -- then pointing at me is ad hominem distraction.
I haven't been following this argument, but I think the last accusation was pointing one of these out.
One can't even make a real blonde or red-haired man in this game because of the dark brown beard stubble. Please don't tell me that blonde and red-haired men are so unimportant/uncommon that I have a personal problem because I think they should be able to represent themselves. Moreover, since there is no youthful complexion option, perhaps the largest video game demographic (males 15-25) can't make an avatar that represents them with greater accuracy. As far as I know MMO players shift older, but there are plenty in their twenties and late teens that play this I bet.
Yes indeed, there are problems with the lack of youthful complexions. No cheek or cheekbone sliders. Every male has to have that annoying stubble without being clean-shaven. It is quite annoying.
No, seriously. Jodarkrider, you know I'm on your side about the whole character tailoring freedom thing, but you're constantly emphasizing about how it's to have a choice to not be sexy. I'm sorry, but "being sexy" is strictly a matter of opinion, and there are indeed people out there that find women with manly bodies attractive. If you're doing this against attractiveness, I believe that it's for the wrong reasons.
Sorry, but as a rationalist, I'm gonna have to step in when I see a flaw in reasoning.
You're being pedantic. Her point is that the option isn't there.
Just like the option to sexualize men to this degree is definitely not there (and that isn't even the Orion female outfit).
Also notice the micro-butt on the guy in the pic, which is typical for men in this game. His calves are bigger than his glutes.
Considering that games with more abilities to alter the look of the avatar sell well, it is interesting that there seems little growth or adjustment in the body system.
Is it an engine problem?
(And please do not say it is a three year old system. I can show you much older ones with more options.)
Or is it felt that such an option is not cost effective?
If the latter I would point out that the competing space MMO did an expansion to sell more skin and hair options for players. And I know the kiosks were clogged when it came out.
So if it needs to be monetized because this is free to play. Then make them unlocks for customers willing to pay.
Want hair that hangs to your waist? 100z
Muscular torso unlock? 100z
Youthful faces? 100z
Do a bunch of them and sell the bundle for a hair less than buying the whole package.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Considering that games with more abilities to alter the look of the avatar sell well, it is interesting that there seems little growth or adjustment in the body system.
Is it an engine problem?
(And please do not say it is a three year old system. I can show you much older ones with more options.)
Or is it felt that such an option is not cost effective?
If the latter I would point out that the competing space MMO did an expansion to sell more skin and hair options for players. And I know the kiosks were clogged when it came out.
So if it needs to be monetized because this is free to play. Then make them unlocks for customers willing to pay.
Want hair that hangs to your waist? 100z
Muscular torso unlock? 100z
Youthful faces? 100z
Do a bunch of them and sell the bundle for a hair less than buying the whole package.
I'd pay Zen for proper muscular/no TRIBBLE torso for my female character, without blinking an eye. Lol.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Part of the reason I almost never play male characters is that they're just so odd looking. Especially in the waist/hips/legs in proportion to the upper body, I guess space gyms never have leg day. I am *very* average looking (height, weight, etc) and I can't replicate myself in the game.
Nor can you make a female character who is either properly athletic or realistically fat. Both of these problems stem from Cryptic saving time and money four years ago by porting over the tailor from a superhero game. That could be fixed, yet fixing it incurs the wrath of all the people who are happy with the way their character looks. It has to be done very delicately.
Part of the reason I almost never play male characters is that they're just so odd looking. Especially in the waist/hips/legs in proportion to the upper body, I guess space gyms never have leg day. I am *very* average looking (height, weight, etc) and I can't replicate myself in the game.
Nor can you make a female character who is either properly athletic or realistically fat. Both of these problems stem from Cryptic saving time and money four years ago by porting over the tailor from a superhero game. That could be fixed, yet fixing it incurs the wrath of all the people who are happy with the way their character looks. It has to be done very delicately.
You say this and now I want a witch outfit for an orion. :P
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Men in this game now typically have calves that are bigger than their glutes which is exceedingly rare in real life, if even possible.
The proportions are off. It's like there is a center point where a pinch tool was applied so you get a micro-butt and huge shoulders and huge calves. It's like each man has swallowed a tiny singularity and is slowly being sucked into it.
Here you can also see another problem: his glutes are too short vertically -- as if they were cut off. The shoulders aren't so outsized on this guy but the calves look ridiculous compared to the glutes. And, notice how prominent the woman's glutes are by comparison.
Normal is the woman on the left side of the photo in the link I posted. Abnormal is the one on the right.
Yeah, I got that much. I just disagree that either looks like this, which looks completely normal to me. And IMO far more attractive than most NPCs out there.
Yeah, I got that much. I just disagree that either looks like this, which looks completely normal to me. And IMO far more attractive than most NPCs out there.
Sorry, but that looks absolutelly horrible... & totally comics like.. but that's just me. I want STO to go away from the comics looks, which the female models especially suffer from...
An example, what would some more waist & actually uniform, which is not tight & thus not religiously copying the body shape would do - Some Wonder here - looks much better, tbh.. But that's just me. :P
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
You must have a unique definition for "suffering."
Hanover2 never fails to disappoint with his low level of posting.
Comics looking characters are horrible and totally not fitting into STO, simply as that.
And I swear, whatever crush you have on me, by following me around, posting a low quality posts, intended to annoy me - please stop. I am a married person, my significant other could get jealous. Thank you.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
I don't care what looks "freakish" to some people. This is Star Trek. Beings come in all shapes and sizes and since you have the freedom to customize your character, you should be able to do it.
Who cares how thin or thick someone else's character's waist is?
Just try and give freedom enough so that everyone can slake their taste for their own want for uniqueness.
I don't care what looks "freakish" to some people. This is Star Trek. Beings come in all shapes and sizes and since you have the freedom to customize your character, you should be able to do it.
Who cares how thin or thick someone else's character's waist is?
Just try and give freedom enough so that everyone can slake their taste for their own want for uniqueness.
Yeah, well, sadly, you can't make 'em in all shapes now... as I griped about for ages by now... we how just the crappy comics'ish looks now... but, hopefully, that will change, so everyone's happy and we have a happy ending
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Sorry, but that looks absolutelly horrible... & totally comics like.. but that's just me. I want STO to go away from the comics looks, which the female models especially suffer from...
An example, what would some more waist & actually uniform, which is not tight & thus not religiously copying the body shape would do - Some Wonder here - looks much better, tbh.. But that's just me. :P
Well I disagree, and I think there should be enough room in-game for either body type. IDIC and all. =D
I am very much in support of a simple Min/Max increase on all of the sliders in the character creator. This would allow players to further customize their characters in whatever manner they see fit for themselves.
I personally would like to be able to make the neck of one of my aliens a bit longer and my main captain would like to be able to finally break 220 lbs of muscle :P
The usual cry of the naysayers at times like this is "Don't make the devs spend time on your dress-up game, they could be making more loot for meeee!"
Appearance sells. Sadly, it's also a truism that sex sells- but that doesn't mean that women all have to have deformed supermodel physiques and men look like a collection of cylinders assembled with a vaguely conical head on top.
Given the size of the zen costume store, improving the body plainly *would* be a sales point.
As far as clothing goes- it is partly conditioning- the gaming world finds it hard to get out of the WoW Chainmail bikini mindset. In some cases, that doesn't matter *so* much- but in a game that divides tops into 'tight' and 'loose', that distinction really ought to mean something. The Wrath of Khan jacket is about the only one I can think of that wears like an actual *jacket* rather than being deliberately figure-hugging.
In some cases, it's fair enough- the Sierra uniform is clearly designed to *be* figure-hugging. Whether that's a good look in a serious uniform is another matter, but, it's not actually illogical... but the winter jacket?!
It would also be nice to have a *variety* of skirt lengths. Sure the TOS ones should be canonically short. However for the others, why not have a "Sierra Mini" "Sierra Midi" and "Sierra Maxi"? What normal Vice-Admiral would actually turn up for diplomatic missions or walk through Earth Spacedock with her hemline up round her armpits?
As far as armour goes- the temporal jumpsuit is supposed to be skin-tight, so fine, the painted on to front and rear look isn't a problem there... but Maco armour? To be that tight-fitting, it's hard to see how it would have enough thickness or padding to protect against a goldfish bite, never mind a Borg.
The usual cry of the naysayers at times like this is "Don't make the devs spend time on your dress-up game, they could be making more loot for meeee!"
Appearance sells. Sadly, it's also a truism that sex sells- but that doesn't mean that women all have to have deformed supermodel physiques and men look like a collection of cylinders assembled with a vaguely conical head on top.
Given the size of the zen costume store, improving the body plainly *would* be a sales point.
As far as clothing goes- it is partly conditioning- the gaming world finds it hard to get out of the WoW Chainmail bikini mindset. In some cases, that doesn't matter *so* much- but in a game that divides tops into 'tight' and 'loose', that distinction really ought to mean something. The Wrath of Khan jacket is about the only one I can think of that wears like an actual *jacket* rather than being deliberately figure-hugging.
In some cases, it's fair enough- the Sierra uniform is clearly designed to *be* figure-hugging. Whether that's a good look in a serious uniform is another matter, but, it's not actually illogical... but the winter jacket?!
It would also be nice to have a *variety* of skirt lengths. Sure the TOS ones should be canonically short. However for the others, why not have a "Sierra Mini" "Sierra Midi" and "Sierra Maxi"? What normal Vice-Admiral would actually turn up for diplomatic missions or walk through Earth Spacedock with her hemline up round her armpits?
As far as armour goes- the temporal jumpsuit is supposed to be skin-tight, so fine, the painted on to front and rear look isn't a problem there... but Maco armour? To be that tight-fitting, it's hard to see how it would have enough thickness or padding to protect against a goldfish bite, never mind a Borg.
I feel the need to defend Maco armour here. By being formfitting but with padding and an armoured chest piece it does provide good protection while allowing mobility. I think if they made it any more heavily armoured then it would need to be a mini-mecha. (mild exaggeration I know.)
The only issue with the various jackets I have is that belts only fit the form fitting ones. Only wrath of khan belt fits the wrath of khan jacket. (Yet oddly will also fit the others.)
What is the work around to make this function properly?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Comments
It's funny, because I feel it's better to support ideas which expand the game, offer more choices, rather than being that negative nay sayer to everything, that does not fit your own agenda... oh well. Glad you are not the one making this game. :P
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
The argument's basis is that I have "a personal problem". That is ad hominem.
Sure, we can tease out an argument, despite the three or four "personal problem" references in the paragraph, but is that really worthwhile? It all comes down to the idea that I am such an aberration that my point of view is invalid and/or that the game should not appeal to individuals and should instead appeal to some monolithic average.
Of course it's obvious that there are diminishing returns in anything, but when there are quite significant oversights in a product -- such as the inability to represent the range of masculine and feminine and sexy to unsexy -- which are both very important factors in humanity (especially in something utopian like a Trek MMO where people design their own avatars) -- then pointing at me is ad hominem distraction.
One can't even make a real blonde or red-haired man in this game because of the dark brown beard stubble. Please don't tell me that blonde and red-haired men are so unimportant/uncommon that I have a personal problem because I think they should be able to represent themselves. Moreover, since there is no youthful complexion option, perhaps the largest video game demographic (males 15-25) can't make an avatar that represents them with greater accuracy. As far as I know MMO players shift older, but there are plenty in their twenties and late teens that play this I bet.
Sorry, but as a rationalist, I'm gonna have to step in when I see a flaw in reasoning.
I haven't been following this argument, but I think the last accusation was pointing one of these out.
Yes indeed, there are problems with the lack of youthful complexions. No cheek or cheekbone sliders. Every male has to have that annoying stubble without being clean-shaven. It is quite annoying.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
Just like the option to sexualize men to this degree is definitely not there (and that isn't even the Orion female outfit).
Also notice the micro-butt on the guy in the pic, which is typical for men in this game. His calves are bigger than his glutes.
Is it an engine problem?
(And please do not say it is a three year old system. I can show you much older ones with more options.)
Or is it felt that such an option is not cost effective?
If the latter I would point out that the competing space MMO did an expansion to sell more skin and hair options for players. And I know the kiosks were clogged when it came out.
So if it needs to be monetized because this is free to play. Then make them unlocks for customers willing to pay.
Want hair that hangs to your waist? 100z
Muscular torso unlock? 100z
Youthful faces? 100z
Do a bunch of them and sell the bundle for a hair less than buying the whole package.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
Nor can you make a female character who is either properly athletic or realistically fat. Both of these problems stem from Cryptic saving time and money four years ago by porting over the tailor from a superhero game. That could be fixed, yet fixing it incurs the wrath of all the people who are happy with the way their character looks. It has to be done very delicately.
You say this and now I want a witch outfit for an orion. :P
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Like a real, bright red hair like this :
http://www.bluebanana.com/shopimages/products/normal/manic-panic-amplified-vampire-red-hair-dye-36990-m.jpg
I would so love that hair colour....
But than again, I'm not ever getting my Fleet Elite Antiproton Quad Heavy Cannons CrtHx4 either.....
So...yeah, asking Cryptic to do something that 1-2 people would like would be good, but it would not be cost effective for them.
We need hats in STO but I think that's a separate issue :P
The proportions are off. It's like there is a center point where a pinch tool was applied so you get a micro-butt and huge shoulders and huge calves. It's like each man has swallowed a tiny singularity and is slowly being sucked into it.
Here you can also see another problem: his glutes are too short vertically -- as if they were cut off. The shoulders aren't so outsized on this guy but the calves look ridiculous compared to the glutes. And, notice how prominent the woman's glutes are by comparison.
Isn't that waist awfully high on the body?
She may be missing a few ribs I think.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Reminds me of this:
http://photos.posh24.com/p/658851/l/filippa_hamilton/ralph_lauren_model_i_was_fired_for_being_too_fat.jpg
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
Preach it!
-Seacat
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
An example, what would some more waist & actually uniform, which is not tight & thus not religiously copying the body shape would do - Some Wonder here - looks much better, tbh.. But that's just me. :P
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
Comics looking characters are horrible and totally not fitting into STO, simply as that.
And I swear, whatever crush you have on me, by following me around, posting a low quality posts, intended to annoy me - please stop. I am a married person, my significant other could get jealous. Thank you.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
Who cares how thin or thick someone else's character's waist is?
Just try and give freedom enough so that everyone can slake their taste for their own want for uniqueness.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
I personally would like to be able to make the neck of one of my aliens a bit longer and my main captain would like to be able to finally break 220 lbs of muscle :P
Appearance sells. Sadly, it's also a truism that sex sells- but that doesn't mean that women all have to have deformed supermodel physiques and men look like a collection of cylinders assembled with a vaguely conical head on top.
Given the size of the zen costume store, improving the body plainly *would* be a sales point.
As far as clothing goes- it is partly conditioning- the gaming world finds it hard to get out of the WoW Chainmail bikini mindset. In some cases, that doesn't matter *so* much- but in a game that divides tops into 'tight' and 'loose', that distinction really ought to mean something. The Wrath of Khan jacket is about the only one I can think of that wears like an actual *jacket* rather than being deliberately figure-hugging.
In some cases, it's fair enough- the Sierra uniform is clearly designed to *be* figure-hugging. Whether that's a good look in a serious uniform is another matter, but, it's not actually illogical... but the winter jacket?!
It would also be nice to have a *variety* of skirt lengths. Sure the TOS ones should be canonically short. However for the others, why not have a "Sierra Mini" "Sierra Midi" and "Sierra Maxi"? What normal Vice-Admiral would actually turn up for diplomatic missions or walk through Earth Spacedock with her hemline up round her armpits?
As far as armour goes- the temporal jumpsuit is supposed to be skin-tight, so fine, the painted on to front and rear look isn't a problem there... but Maco armour? To be that tight-fitting, it's hard to see how it would have enough thickness or padding to protect against a goldfish bite, never mind a Borg.
I feel the need to defend Maco armour here. By being formfitting but with padding and an armoured chest piece it does provide good protection while allowing mobility. I think if they made it any more heavily armoured then it would need to be a mini-mecha. (mild exaggeration I know.)
The only issue with the various jackets I have is that belts only fit the form fitting ones. Only wrath of khan belt fits the wrath of khan jacket. (Yet oddly will also fit the others.)
What is the work around to make this function properly?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.