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Romulan Politics
feiqa
Member Posts: 2,410 Arc User
So a few lines in the Khev hate thread got me thinking.
We look at D'tan as weak and not having the shrewd guile we expect of a romulan leader. And to be honest his near constant comments about re-unification with vulcans is grating. But what if we are wrong? Let's look at him from a different perspective.
Prior to the attack on Virinat, D'tan and his group are a small fleet of loosely aligned ships working against the Tal Shi'ar. He really wasn't trying hard to setup a home world. Then one of the tal shi'ar over extends and stomps on the civilians too hard. Now D'tan has a power base and a movement really building steam.
Now he can gather people and settle a new homeworld and build a new empire.
Why a new empire, why not just take his followers and join the federation? Because he wants the power and the independance. Join the federation and he is nothing again. Setup New Romulus and he is a historical saviour.
Now we come to the treaties with the federation and the klingon empire. Does the colony need help? Sure, but the biggest thing it needs is for the two big kids on the block to not crush them. Think about it, he needs a shipyard to make and repair vessels to defend the new home. But the klingons will see it as a military base on thier flank and move to obliterate it. If they form a treaty with just the klingons, the federation will see them as a threat and move to undermine them. So he moves to be the middle. Take assistance from both and let them ply him and his people with gifts to sway them to one side or another.
So why does he appear so open and guiless? Because everyone is looking for the knife in his hand and the glib lies off his tongue. The best way to not get caught in a lie is to not be telling one.
Now this goes all the way to the final cut scene for romulan reputation. (I have not gotten there yet so I am making a few assumptions based on comments and Sphere of Influence.)
Why tell the federation and the klingon empire about this wonder?
Because when the klingons find out they will attack to take it and they will use the fact it was hidden as the proof of duplicity. Maybe even claiming it was the sole reason for the colonization in the first place.
And the federation has been known to show up and blow up people's new toys. They seem to enjoy doing that. Especially with Iconian tech.
By telling them and inviting them in you take away the pretenses they can use to stop you.
And all the while seemingly guiless and naive.
So he looks better to the common people. Manipulates both the empire and the federation deftly. And is sitting as the leader of a brand new faction.
So is he weak, or better at this than we gave him credit?
We look at D'tan as weak and not having the shrewd guile we expect of a romulan leader. And to be honest his near constant comments about re-unification with vulcans is grating. But what if we are wrong? Let's look at him from a different perspective.
Prior to the attack on Virinat, D'tan and his group are a small fleet of loosely aligned ships working against the Tal Shi'ar. He really wasn't trying hard to setup a home world. Then one of the tal shi'ar over extends and stomps on the civilians too hard. Now D'tan has a power base and a movement really building steam.
Now he can gather people and settle a new homeworld and build a new empire.
Why a new empire, why not just take his followers and join the federation? Because he wants the power and the independance. Join the federation and he is nothing again. Setup New Romulus and he is a historical saviour.
Now we come to the treaties with the federation and the klingon empire. Does the colony need help? Sure, but the biggest thing it needs is for the two big kids on the block to not crush them. Think about it, he needs a shipyard to make and repair vessels to defend the new home. But the klingons will see it as a military base on thier flank and move to obliterate it. If they form a treaty with just the klingons, the federation will see them as a threat and move to undermine them. So he moves to be the middle. Take assistance from both and let them ply him and his people with gifts to sway them to one side or another.
So why does he appear so open and guiless? Because everyone is looking for the knife in his hand and the glib lies off his tongue. The best way to not get caught in a lie is to not be telling one.
Now this goes all the way to the final cut scene for romulan reputation. (I have not gotten there yet so I am making a few assumptions based on comments and Sphere of Influence.)
Why tell the federation and the klingon empire about this wonder?
Because when the klingons find out they will attack to take it and they will use the fact it was hidden as the proof of duplicity. Maybe even claiming it was the sole reason for the colonization in the first place.
And the federation has been known to show up and blow up people's new toys. They seem to enjoy doing that. Especially with Iconian tech.
By telling them and inviting them in you take away the pretenses they can use to stop you.
And all the while seemingly guiless and naive.
So he looks better to the common people. Manipulates both the empire and the federation deftly. And is sitting as the leader of a brand new faction.
So is he weak, or better at this than we gave him credit?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Post edited by feiqa on
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Comments
And that is how I see it. He is using Romulan deftness and manipulation to play the larger forces against each other so that his people in the middle can benefit. As you said, for the genuine betterment of the people and not for his personal ego (like Sela) or power (like Hakeev).
The Iconian Gateway is located in what is recognized by the Federation and Klingon Empire as Romulan (Republic) space.
The Republic has once again invited both factions - who agree that the Omega particles in the Spere should be destroyed - to support a joint operation in the Sphere, under a Romulan commander.
IMO, if Cryptic decides to formally end the Starfleet/KDF war (which has effectively been over for some time now, with the focus on cross-faction content), the Romulans are likely to be the catalyst for this peace process.
Tovan Khev may not be quite as self-serving as the old-school "evil" Romulans, but he's unquestionably a shrewd politician. He's taken what was a scattered group of refugees and turned them into an influential force in the Quadrant.
Similarly, if the Klingon captain had started talking about blowing the gate, the Romulans could have appealed to Federation scientific curiosity (and the Omega Protocols), and the Klingons would have had to back down for the same reason.
And thus, we can see D'Tan's strategy in play...
I agree. In another thread, I had made the comment that the Federation was the glue that held together the Alpha Quadrant Alliance against the Dominion, as the Klingons and the Romulans were never going to work together without an intermediary, even in the face of a greater threat.
The Borg conference on DS9 which was interrupted, seems to also prove that despite the threat of invasion by the Borg, the Federation and Klingon Empires are still more likely to fight each other rather than the Borg. I could easily see the Romulan-Reman Republic being the unifying force driving the creation of the Battle Group Omega Force. I don't know for sure, but it would seem that the Dyson Sphere storyline seems to imply this. I would very much like to see made official, perhaps with a Republic exclusive mission where the player Captain-Commander or Tovan Khev pitching the idea to D'Tan or the delegates at the DS9 conference.
Oh, and incidentally, I would like to see a major overhaul of the Battle Group Omega social zone. The basic map would be the same with KDF and Starfleet ships, but also would include some Republic ships as well. And a station (maybe Republic?) with a ground map where we can access the bank, mail, exchange, and vendors.
Wait a second mate, Battle Group Omega has been around for at least thrity years. The Enterprise-E was attached to it in 2379. Sources:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Fleet_Battle_Group_Omega
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Battle_Group_Omega
Also, it is also stated ingame that it was D'Vak, son of Alexander Rozhenko, who forged the cross faction task force as it is now. Source:
http://sto.gamepedia.com/D%27Vak
Last but not least: Omega Force has been in-game for far longer than the Dyson Sphere has been, so we can assume that Battlegroup Omega has been around much longer from that fact too.
About your suggestion: a overhaul would be cool, but no one really uses it enough to warrant such an overhaul.
It is not uncommon for old names and numbers to be reused. You look through military history and it is rather common for a unit to be disbanded, then several decades later reactivated.
Your link to D'Vak does not say he was the one who pitched the idea. It merely states that he is the current commander of the unit.
And to your last point, the reason why people don't use it much is because it is unwieldy and not very convenient. Your argument is the self-fulfilling prophecy, and is the same argument used by the Devs to trash the KDF side of the house. For one, you can't change ships nor visit a tailor. Most would rather go to DS9 or their respective homeworld. If BGO was remastered and improved, then it would see more use.
It is true that names are reused, and I admit it might be the case here. But I still think it's the very same battlegroup because both wiki's say this.
Oh yes, whoops. But I can remember that someone ingame said it was D'Vak who actually put the thing together, and if I can recall correctly it is D'Vak himself. I'll check on DS9 when the server comes back up.
You compare my argument to KDF content, and we call this a "drogreden" in Dutch. To be specific, we call it a wrong comparison. Why? Because Battle Group Omega is a small social zone close to 4 (ESD, K-7, Drozana and DS9) other social zones and 3 of those 4 (ESD, K-7 and DS9) can be reached trough transwarp. While KDF content is an entire faction, you just can't compare those two. It's like comparing apples with pears
And yes, I'm sure it would be visited more if they'd revamp it, but only shortlived unless it gets a special feature or advantage to go there (like DS9 had before the rep systems).
EDIT: Jup, D'Vak says he went to SFC and the Klingon High Council when talking to him on DS9
Yes, it does, however, that they are one and the same is pure speculation. They were included together because BGO in Star Trek Online is not significant enough to warrant its own article page on Memory Alpha. STO is considered Apocrypha.
I never said they were the same. I was saying that the justification (i.e. excuse) was the same; the self fulfilling prophecy (in this case negative feedback, Example: I'm going to fail so I just won't try).
How is BGO close to those social zones? BGO is closest to Pelia and Gamma Orionis sector blocks, both of which must be reached by traveling via BGO. The Transwarp gates to BGO are closest to Earth and Qo'nos, and nowhere near K-7, Drozana, nor DS9.
The "feature" that made DS9 unique early was the Dabo table which was then duplicated at Drozana. Yes ESD, Qo'nos, DS9, K-7, 39-Sierra, and now Deferi have transwarp quick drops. That seems like a simple enough fix to me. The most useful aspect to BGO was its proximity to STFs before they made the quick play versions. Even without that, its proximity to B'Tran was also a draw.
The 'justification' isn't the same, it only sounds the same. BGO isn't used much by most players, and is also not very significant compared to a complete faction that is set aside by the Devs, which hurts a lot more people and a lot harder because it's on a completely different scale.
Well, it's a matter of perspective, in my opinion K-7 is almost the same distance to ESD, only with a loadingscreen in the middle. Drozana is slightly further away but not by much.
Yes well, I never really play Dabo, so DS9's special feature could've been Dabo, but I really became fond of DS9 when it had the STF store. Which could've better been on BGO in my opinion. And yes, a transwarp option to BGO would see it have more visitors, but only with that I guess. So my suggestion: first give the transwarp option to BGO as a tier 1 OMEGA rep reward, then see if the increase in traffic warrants a revamp.
Well, prior to the queues and rep system what little traffic BGO had was because people needed to be in Gamma Orionis to pick up STF missions. After the queues were instated DS9 became a bigger hub (if it wasn't a bigger hub already) because that's where people would queue up for and come back from STFs.
Another way to "revive" BGO (assuming it needs a revival) would be to bring in more Gamma Orionis missions, like old-style STFs or Terradome, and making them location-exclusive. But knowing Cryptic if they bring back Terradome it'll be as a queue event, anyway.
Sela still missing, therefore she has to return some time later. We also don't know anything about romulan senate. After all what happened we don't know anything about their will. It's known that they accepted Sela as the empress.
Hopefully Cryptic won't flatten, us, royalists completely into dirt with their storyline.
Look, an old screenshot:
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/sto.gamepedia.com/f/f2/Reputation_system_kdf.jpg
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
Agreed, tho at this point Im not very hopeful
The RSE is dead. The Tal Shiar took power, but it would be like the CIA taking power of the USA, it wouldn't be the USA anymore.
The last Empress was Donatra, and you know about her fate.
---
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
On the second point, were you unaware of Sela's heritage? Her mother was Lt. Tasha Yar of the battleship Enterprise, in a variant universe spun off by the failure of the Enterprise-C to die valiantly defending a Klingon colony from a Romulan attack. In the main timeline, this had resulted in Starfleet gaining the Klingon Empire's respect, setting off a series of actions that culminated in the Khitomer Accords; when the Ent-C was shunted into the future by an anomaly, however, the universe changed to one where the Federation was blamed for that attack, and was at war with the Klingons - and losing badly. Also, Guinan was able to tell Tasha that in the "proper" timeline, she should be dead - but that her death was pointless.
Accordingly, when they found a way to get the Ent-C back to her proper time, Tasha volunteered to go along to replace a crewmember who had died in the interim of a Klingon attack. Later, Jean-Luc Picard and Data encountered Sela, a rising star in the Tal'Shiar, who was Tasha's daughter subsequent to her mother's **** by a Romulan admiral. He had made the mistake of falling in love with Tasha; she, in turn, made the mistake of confiding in Sela (a fanatical member of the RSE by this point), who betrayed Tasha's escape attempt, leading to Tasha's death.
So yes, "Empress" Sela is a ruthless, vicious half-breed, unacceptable by fanatics due to her ancestry and unacceptable by peace-loving Romulans due to her - ah - issues.
Edit: Oh yes, let's not leave out how she got the "support" for her claim to power - by contacting the Hirogen, and giving them permission to hunt Romulans.
---
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2LjwM3B688
Still expected a bigger impact. Looks like JJ Trek hardened me...
Taris... Hopefully she escaped durning incident with Jem Hadar...
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
I think you might find this interesting.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/11/1117_051117_maya_massacre.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/17/international/americas/17maya.html?_r=0
I saw a NATGEO documentary way back in early 2009 about the murder of the Mayan Royal Family and the collapse of the Empire. It was very informative.
Um no. I think you need to go back and watch the episode "Redemption" (TNG) again. Sela said she was only 4 years old when Tasha tried to flee Romulus. Yes, you could say that a little girl crying out was a betrayal, but realistically, how could a 4 year old be a fanatical member of the Tal Shiar or her mother's confidant?
And the other point remains - that Sela is still half-Human, and thus those who want to be Romulan supremacists should find her a horrific race traitor, especially taking into account the Hirogen thing.
No biggee. Not everyone remembers things with such acute detail.
And I completely agree with you on that.
Agreed.
When I played Facility 4028 I have found a cell with Taris in it. On my way out, after Jem Hadar Attack, it was empty.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
And Taris, well, the 4028 mission mentions an Iconian energy signature being detected in her cell. the real question is whether she became Elachi food.
My character Tsin'xing
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
Am I the only one that remembers finding out that the Undine were also part of the reason she rose to power?? They wanted an incompetent, easily manipulated boob on the throne