I guess you have a very different opinion on the state of the human mind than I have...
Let's just say, I see Humans the way Nature made them and that doesn't work well nowadays and will lead to your proposal failing as they will not be more social...
Aye, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe a system which rewards team effort and a higher tier of PUGs that requires this team effort will give people no option but to become more social than what they are. This could be a deeper problem with the game design and it being too easy -- I'm well aware of this.
As you seem to see Humans as inherently good natured that only lack a proper "System" to manifest...
Yes, I'm a US Army veteran, I have seen first hand what motivation can do. I believe if people are properly motivated in the right direction they tend to follow that direction -- for good or bad.
Not that bad... people have different opinions... I know a few "avid Trekkies" who are repelled by the New Movies and vowed to never watch them again... all listing seemingly "logical" reasons.
These friends were just all ST fans though -- the types that collects the model ships from every episode and movie :P. I merely stated what they told me and knowing them as the truthful types, that carries a lot of weight with me, but I understand not everyone is the same and that is fine.
Sorry... but if even I can think of a scheme to abuse this system then there are thousands that can do better than that.
Sure even the Duo would have to compete with themselves... but so do the Drug Cartells and still they work together to abuse the System.
I know this seems a bit over the top but I only wanted to clarify that when even they can work together and "split the booty" mere players in a far less violent enviroment would work together VERY well....
I think it "could" be handled in such a way that abuse will be minimal. People abuse systems now to what we currently have, but we don't suggest less effort to the system, we suggest fixes. If the fixes have exploits for abuse, then by God, fix them too!
No I do not... I want you to at least start to think of a way it could be done...
Again... HOW CAN it be measured?
Which System is workable here? Time Enemy spent in Debuff? You'll never amount to much as enemies die too fast! Number of Debuffs thrown? Just pull a lone Drone or Sphere out there and Chain-Debuff it for the most time, so you'll land in 1st Place...
It would have to be a weighted algorithm system considering the contribution from each player (in addition to DPS) and offering (in the weight) multipliers to the scores (in a balanced way) when they say heal, or use a debuff that is exploited by the team while being the combination of officer and ship that is suited for it. Sadly I can give a list of what-nots; like a tacscort should not win first place because he healed someone, as much of a miraculous achievement as that would be, they should have focused on the DPS and offering this kind of support secondary if not reserving it for themselves being as you only get a max of 4-5 heals to begin with. Also, you would not want to guage an escort in his/her ability to tank. While, admittedly, these items can contribute to a group, it does not contribute as much as that escort holding back on the dps a little (agro can be controlled if the cruiser is trying) to let the cruiser keep agro.
No the Problem is that enemies die faster than one of your precious cruisers can accumulate enough Aggro...
As they die far to fast to accumulate enough "debuff-effectivness".
That's not true either. Hitting the aura, and running into a mass of mobs with BFAW1, 2 or 3 guarantees agro for at least until it refreshes.
There are far to many assumptions...
As I said, they often exploded, right as the Animation of my debuff is finished... there is not much that stuff could have done by then.
Especially not when you take into consideration that things like Energy Syphon take an awful lot of time to actually work or that Tykens Rift and Gravity Well are DoTs.
The ONLY Thing that is instant that would have contributed to this is my Scan... and even then I don't know how effective this ability is in reality.
Agreed, and this will have to be accounted for. If damage gets a score modifier of say 1.0 for everyone, but a tacscort gets a modifier of 1.1 for the scoreboard, and tykens rift gets a contributory modifier (from a sci vessel) of say 110.0 in which they also get points dumped into this by any gained dps by all other players, this could be fair considering that the sci ship usually has an arsenal of many more debuffs that could give huge jumps on the leader-board each time they're strategically used.
I disagree with your decision to punish ship type choice. Just because someone pilots a cruiser doesn't mean that person wants to heal or be the punching bag and so on.
You didn't even notice the ships are "primaries" and the captains "tertiary" did you?
I think they already have a reason to heal. They're also doing a pretty good job healing themselves. In Star Trek, ships fix themselves anyway. If you want a heal slave to keep your poor ship alive, go find a friend who's willing to do that.
I think you got hit with the brick. Obviously this is not true, because it is just the opposite. Cruisers are encouraged through higher reward not to heal dps classes -- because if they die, their dps goes down, and then the surviving cruiser can reap that reward when it is completely counter-intuitive of the ship they're piloting.
I think there's enough self-sufficiency in the class and ships. The only time I die when I pilot an escort is when I'm not moving. 4 other ships healing the lone escort that's standing still and unloading cannons is a waste of time. The encounter ends faster when 5 ships unload their cannons/beams/torpedos/mines.
You must be lucky, from the parses of all of the pugs I've done in this experiment thus far, shows escorts with a 4:1 death ratio to ALL other ship types. So either you're outright lying to stop a train from rolling over your agenda, or you're disconnected with pugs and not qualified to make such a comment -- which is it?.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
Please tell me where in the post you quoted I stated I was happy with things.
But when faced with what we have and the enforced roles you want to inflict upon us, I have to choose the lesser of two evils, which is the one that gives me a choice as to what I want to do on a given day, sometimes I fly a jack-of-all-trades cruiser and again under your system i would be penalised for this.
If you're not "for" a change in the current system you're obviously content with the way it is. I haven't seen a counter-suggestion which furthers this circumstantial observation as substantial. If you have stated otherwise and have a better suggestion, by all means, feel free to clarify.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
I think the using the term Sociopath is a bit...strong...most people associate a slightly different meaning to it then the dictionary gives. (it is also often confused or associated with psychopath)
As for the rest, the problem lies with how modern MMO's are structured.
Back in the days of EverQuest (EQ, yes I'm going way back to 1999/2000) you had to group to level, the mobs (mobiles, aka monsters and hostile npcs) that gave good experience couldn't be handled by a single player unless they were a very particular class, like a druid who could fear kite, the rest had to group up, and SOE/Verant at the time admitted that EQ featured forced grouping, to get that D&D feel.
Social interaction was key, but there were problems with it, because of forced grouping leveling was slow, if you came on outside of prime time, or on a less desired class you had wait, or do other stuff, what eventually broke me in that game was that I sat in the only real good zone to level at 51, for two weeks straight, most of the days going for an hour or more "Lvl 51 ranger lfg" and not getting ANY invites, so I couldn't level.
WoW and other games of it's generation, started the current age of MMO's, in this leveling was a solo experience that could be shared if you wanted to, and was only required to group up during leveling for optional dungeons.
So many players in the current generation of games end up with little to no grouping experience till they hit max level, and they are suddenly forced to group, so because they often aren't in a guild/clan/fleet they'll PuG
And that is the problem of the current generation of MMO's, it won something back from it's D&D roots, but it also lost something in return.
Where as the previous generation had little in the way quests, and leveling was just an endless but grouped grind of mob killing. (tho you were forced to group and interact with others)
The current generation won back it's D&D questing roots, but lost the group aspect, why, because game designers realized that MMO players liked to be the hero of their own epic story, not that of their groupmates, their own, they are the hero, and the questing also breaks the monotony of the endless mob grind, and speeds it up because turning in a quest rewards experience on it's own.
The forced social aspect is done away with during the leveling experience for player to feel strong and epic on his own, you are saving the planet/galaxy/universe/multiverse.
Star Wars the Old Republic is probably the best and most extreme example of this, the game is often quoted as "being the best single player experience in a MMORPG", an it is, many players, myself included, play that game solely for the class story quests, which play like any epic Bioware single player RPG, like Mass Effect or Dragon Age, I try to play the multi-player "dungeons" but most people in the group want to rush trough the cutscenes because they don't care, have seen it several times before, and in the end what happens there doesn't impact the overall multi-chapter class story, so most of the times I do them once or skip them altogether.
If you haven't had any previous experience in MMO's you'll probably do the nice thing first when the pass/greed/need loot window pops up for the first time, you pass, or you greed if you really don't need it, and they'll quickly notice nobody is using those options, everyone needs, so they start needing everything themselves as well.
This is problem that started all the way back in the earliest games with loot rules, lootwhoring and even ninjalooting, and unless you're in a group that agreed upon a good set of loot rules, basically meaning you have to socialize, everyone has to need so they'll be sure to get at least a chance at the item they want, or any form of reward for the effort they put in.
In WoW this was eventually curtailed by implementing a set of loot rules into the loot window, items that one couldn't use, or stats that were completely useless to certain classes could not be needed by those classes, only greeded or passed, this alleviated some of the lootwhoring in WoW pugs.
The problem in STO is technically everyone can use anything for what ever crazy build they like, want to be an engineering captain flying science ship doing dps with a totally unfit set of consoles, you can.
And if you want to make lots of EC in STO, you play the Exchange and vendor useless gear no one wants, if you're smart you'll use your doffs an lots of rare commodities, or those rare consoles form the strange alien device, for most that is just too tedious and they just grab the loot from the STF's and earn their keep that way.
To end needless "needing" of items, STO would have to put in a lootsystem like WoW has, restrict certain items/consoles/etc to certain classes, but you'll hurt the uniqueness of the player builds that way, and you'll have an unknown effect on the economy and the way players make EC in STO, cause the way most players make big jumps in EC, is selling the loot on the Exchange.
As a final point I want to say that, this is the nature of pugs, they are Pick Up Groups, 5 strangers thrown together to complete a task, coordination is and always will be limited, it is expected you either know the encounter or learn as you go, and what if you lose, you can queue for an other one right away, and for the same one in 20min.
There is also the fact that you can run most pugs in STO, and die dozens of times without taking any damage in most of them, where is the reason or need to heal anyone exactly, where the giant repair bill that forces me to do better in pugs like in other MMO's, where if I die too often my gear breaks and all the bonuses from that piece are gone till I repair it, that is also a motivational tool, yes there are a few elite ones where that rule applies, but, going by timers on them, most people play Azure Nebula, Elachi Alert, and Vault Ensared, none of which incur any damage on your ship at all, while other MMO's even incur damage during combat, and death while leveling.
The problem lies not only in the players, but how the game gets the players to max level, and that is a hard, if not impossible thing to change, especially in the current generation of mmo's.
That's right. My ship has weapons and they need to fire on the enemy. That's their role and that's the final goal: we kill the bad guys and we ride toward the unsetting sun(s).
If I wanted to do something else than to make things go boom with my phasers, I would play LotRO, make a hobbit farmer and grow veggies.
But I tend to agree with other posters that it is the coordinated efforts and strategies that we should focus on, not predefined roles. Hell take the the sector borg alerts for example. What drive me nuts is people not attacking the same facing of Unimatrix. THAT is plain silly. That shows lack of coordination. No matter what ship you have.
As for loot drops, yep it needs rework but I do not think it should be based on specific roles.
Last regular Conduit pug I joined yesterday, I barely had time to power up my phasers and it was done. I'm guessing that some high-end players are sick of pugging Elites so they drop in a regular, destroy everything at warp 9.9 and get the top loot. That's not anti-social, that plain cheap lol.
Cheers
The only problem with regular stf's is that the "top" rewards are only Mk X, and you only get 480 dil. I can only assume that the reason that the elite players go into stf's is because of the number of inexperienced/loner/egodriven/non team oriented players showing up in Estf's. Lets face it. pug groups in ISE or KASE are a regular revolving theme on these boards. it happens constantly, but thats life.. Oh well.. There will lways be cowboys and those still learning to mess things up for everyone else. Perhaps they'll improve..
I dont know. Personally I think that once you get your ship to where it's working the way you want it too, the loot means nothing. You dont need it.. the only reason to run estf's is to challenge yourself and try to do better than you did the last time you ran it.. Now thats better as a team member, not some buckaroo top gun look at me type of idiot, which we've all been at one time or another..
I was in ISE a day or so ago, and it was awesome.. Four minutes from beginning to end. We rolled through there like a tank swatting flies.. It wa awesome. i loved it.. Everybody was a team player. Everybody knew their jobs, and no one lost so much as one point off shields or hull..
There was another time not too long ago when somehow, we ended up with five scimitars in ISE at the same time. When we got to the gate, something clicked and we all hit thaleron at the exact same moment.. The gate simply vanished in that one single puff and we sat there laughing our asses off.. moments like those make the game fun for me and i cherish them hen they happen. But not everyone is like me and i accept that. I dont need the loot. I'm just looking for a smile..
Ifmy science captain in a science ship does more damage than my entire team combined, takes more damage than my entire team combined, and dies the least out of everyone on the entire team, BUT isn't throwing around sci boff debuffs or healing others,then you're telling me that I'm a sociopath?
Can you guess which of the color coded section is the anecdote?
I can guess which makes it HYPOTHETICAL which is the ANTITHESIS of an anecdote. Or do you not comprehend your own literature?
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
The only problem with regular stf's is that the "top" rewards are only Mk X, and you only get 480 dil. I can only assume that the reason that the elite players go into stf's is because of the number of inexperienced/loner/egodriven/non team oriented players showing up in Estf's. Lets face it. pug groups in ISE or KASE are a regular revolving theme on these boards. it happens constantly, but thats life.. Oh well.. There will lways be cowboys and those still learning to mess things up for everyone else. Perhaps they'll improve..
I dont know. Personally I think that once you get your ship to where it's working the way you want it too, the loot means nothing. You dont need it.. the only reason to run estf's is to challenge yourself and try to do better than you did the last time you ran it.. Now thats better as a team member, not some buckaroo top gun look at me type of idiot, which we've all been at one time or another..
I was in ISE a day or so ago, and it was awesome.. Four minutes from beginning to end. We rolled through there like a tank swatting flies.. It wa awesome. i loved it.. Everybody was a team player. Everybody knew their jobs, and no one lost so much as one point off shields or hull..
There was another time not too long ago when somehow, we ended up with five scimitars in ISE at the same time. When we got to the gate, something clicked and we all hit thaleron at the exact same moment.. The gate simply vanished in that one single puff and we sat there laughing our asses off.. moments like those make the game fun for me and i cherish them hen they happen. But not everyone is like me and i accept that. I dont need the loot. I'm just looking for a smile..
Are you looking for a fleet? /shameless attempt :P
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
Please tell me where in the post you quoted I stated I was happy with things.
But when faced with what we have and the enforced roles you want to inflict upon us, I have to choose the lesser of two evils, which is the one that gives me a choice as to what I want to do on a given day, sometimes I fly a jack-of-all-trades cruiser and again under your system i would be penalised for this.
If you're not "for" a change in the current system you're obviously content with the way it is. I haven't seen a counter-suggestion which furthers this circumstantial observation as substantial. If you have stated otherwise and have a better suggestion, by all means, feel free to clarify.
Now if your were suggesting content that isn't damage based or introducing abilities to NPCs that expand the encounters beyond dealing the most damage possible in the shortest period of time possible, I could get behind that.
Going back to quote myself is frustrating, making it work with two other quotes in a post is more-so. However as it was necessary, I have.
Going back to quote myself is frustrating, making it work with two other quotes in a post is more-so. However as it was necessary, I have.
Ok, I completely missed that! That's entirely my fault. The entire system is meant to fix the game, not break it. I would expect and want players to offer up real suggestions to tweak or fix a plan or this one to get something that could be implemented that incites if not requires team effort for substantially better rewards. With that said, constructive criticizem is the subject phrase. Criticizem alone provides nothing, offering suggestions with it, goes a lot further.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
I can guess which makes it HYPOTHETICAL which is the ANTITHESIS of an anecdote. Or do you not comprehend your own literature?
I'll say this again, and I quote, "The hypothetical is whether or not the person is a sociopath, not the anecdotal situation itself. Of course, you wouldn't comprehend that because to you, whether or not the person is a sociopath is not up for debate. But since the paragraph started with an "if", you decided to transform the anecdote into an assumption to fit whatever is going on inside your head."
You ASSUMED that there was more to the anecdote than what I wrote. I called you out on it and we've been playing merry-go-round ever since.
I'll say this again, and I quote, "The hypothetical is whether or not the person is a sociopath, not the anecdotal situation itself. Of course, you wouldn't comprehend that because to you, whether or not the person is a sociopath is not up for debate. But since the paragraph started with an "if", you decided to transform the anecdote into an assumption to fit whatever is going on inside your head."
You ASSUMED that there was more to the anecdote than what I wrote. I called you out on it and we've been playing merry-go-round ever since.
No, you prepositioned the "sociopath" as a QUESTION, (you know with the comma), and predisposition your "story" as a hypothetical condition or ASSUMPTION.
If it was anecdotal, it would have started, "<subject> being a <the facts here> is a sociopath?". Prepositioning your SUBJECT with IF, makes it hypothetical.
Lets try this again with notations:
If [conditional preposition] my science captain [subject] in a science ship does more damage than my entire team combined, takes more damage than my entire team combined, and dies the least out of everyone on the entire team, BUT isn't throwing around sci boff debuffs or healing others [conditions],then you're telling me that I'm a sociopath[question]?
But thanks for the trollfest.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
Hmmm..."Sociopath" OP, I do not think your usage of the that word here is entirely correct. It implies there is something wrong with the all the rest of us and that we are somehow unable to recognize the flaw in ourselves.
The Joker is a sociopath. Quite talented at it, too. While more times than not, I avoid ESTFs in general and PUGs specifically, I am not, as a rule, fixed on destroying/deranging STO for my sole benefit or amusement.
When I do PUG, I do my part to support the team. Which includes leaving the Chat Window open so I can read or hear the abuse heaped upon myself or some other player by someone else because we're "Not Doing It Right!"
Here are my opinions after reading in its entirety your post. Mind you, my opinions are just like the last opening in everyone's alimentary canal. We all have them and they usually do not have a fragrant aroma.
1) pwe/cryptic js doing it all wrong again. If they would just listen to you, STO would be a much more enjoyable game. For you.
2) Every other person who is playing STO is doing it all wrong. If they would just listen to you, STO would be a much more enjoyable game. For you.
Treating your fellow STO players like lab rats shows what you truly think of the rest of us. Could you please post your handle so I can add you to my Ignore list today?
Kthanxbai!
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Hmmm..."Sociopath" OP, I do not think your usage of the that word here is entirely correct. It implies there is something wrong with the all the rest of us and that we are somehow unable to recognize the flaw in ourselves.
Some 3-6% of Americans are sociopaths, to say this wasn't the case would be to deny the facts. But if the shoe fits.
The Joker is a sociopath. Quite talented at it, too. While more times than not, I avoid ESTFs in general and PUGs specifically, I am not, as a rule, fixed on destroying/deranging STO for my sole benefit or amusement.
The Joker also didn't think he had a problem, eliminated obstacles, and lacked any empathy whatsoever. Indeed he was a sociopath, but an extreme sociopath. I do appreciate you giving me the chance to point out the similarities in this community though.
When I do PUG, I do my part to support the team. Which includes leaving the Chat Window open so I can read or hear the abuse heaped upon myself or some other player by someone else because we're "Not Doing It Right!"
So, just so I'm not misunderstanding this. You leave your chat window open just so you can get entertainment out of the complaints you are causing to others? Can we say SOCIOPATH/TROLL? Maybe I misunderstood, as it would seem you are suggesting that you leave your chat window open just to hear people complaining about you and others. This would also suggest that you seek entertainment on other people's hardships, not a viable point for you to say the least.
1) pwe/cryptic js doing it all wrong again. If they would just listen to you, STO would be a much more enjoyable game. For you.
Somehow, attempting to point out that I welcomed feedback and suggestions of solutions to the problem in the OP wouldn't help you realize that its not "for me" being as I have 3 MAXED toons so whether or not I pug or not, its not like it is something that destroy's my time when someone screws up an option -- however it pains me to see players (NOT ME OBVIOUSLY) leave the game because of the rampant sociopathic problem this game rewards.
2) Every other person who is playing STO is doing it all wrong. If they would just listen to you, STO would be a much more enjoyable game. For you.
Again, I don't believe bringing up that I outright asked for suggestions and feedback to be anything that would sway your opinion because it would seem I'm your obstacle and in your way now and I need to be eliminated. Sound about right?
Treating your fellow STO players like lab rats shows what you truly think of the rest of us. Could you please post your handle so I can add you to my Ignore list today?
Treating being the key word -- he was paid 10Mil EC and given every choice to decline without consequence. But I can see how it would infuriate you to the point as to place as much conjecture and blasphemy on the facts as possible to discredit it -- I would if I were a sociopath.
But tell you what, give me your handle and I'll give you mine. I'd love to list your name in our fleet's global ignore and watch list.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
I think you got hit with the brick. Obviously this is not true, because it is just the opposite. Cruisers are encouraged through higher reward not to heal dps classes -- because if they die, their dps goes down, and then the surviving cruiser can reap that reward when it is completely counter-intuitive of the ship they're piloting.
I think you assume too much. I don't see how this is obviously not true and it's the opposite. In general, ships die because the captains that pilot them are bad. That's the simple truth. Well...bad luck do happen but if a ship consistently explodes, maybe the fault is due to the captain, not the pug? If a ship explodes in pug, but not in a group with fleet mates, then I think captain of the ship does not know how to adapt depending on the environment he or she is in.
You must be lucky, from the parses of all of the pugs I've done in this experiment thus far, shows escorts with a 4:1 death ratio to ALL other ship types. So either you're outright lying to stop a train from rolling over your agenda, or you're disconnected with pugs and not qualified to make such a comment -- which is it?.
Fascinating. I'm either lucky, lying or disconnected from pugs, eh? I'm not lucky. I just know how to run away from incoming balls of plasma. Certain engineering consoles and shields help too. I'm also not lying. I have no reason to do so. I'm also not disconnected from pugs. I've had STF runs which lasts from 3 mins (pug!) to 15 mins or more (omg cloaking scimitar with pug). I've also failed STFs after spending 7 mins in it (sigh...Kang with pug).
The intent of your proposal seems to allow you to enjoy the game the way you want to enjoy it while PUG-ing. In an attempt to do that, you are forcing other people to conform to your idea on how it's meant to be played. Maybe you're mistaken about which party is the sociopath here. I don't see a big problem with PUGs. If there's one improvement I'd want to see, its for PUGs to do more damage on the enemies, not more healing on others.
I think you assume too much. I don't see how this is obviously not true and it's the opposite. In general, ships die because the captains that pilot them are bad. That's the simple truth. Well...bad luck do happen but if a ship consistently explodes, maybe the fault is due to the captain, not the pug? If a ship explodes in pug, but not in a group with fleet mates, then I think captain of the ship does not know how to adapt depending on the environment he or she is in.
This is inference. You have to apply a little logic to understand that the only jackpot reward in PUGs at the current are for those with the most damage. This means that it is not productive for a cruiser to heal a tacscort, because when the tacscort dies, his overall damage is severely diminished from the respawn cooldown. Because of this, it is inferred (and opposite to your statement) that cruisers are indeed rewarded for denying heals and support to those who need it.
My experiment I ran early this morning was also crystal clear about this as well, showing the reward for being a sociopath was some 1000% more rewarding than being a team player -- and this is so very wrong.
Fascinating. I'm either lucky, lying or disconnected from pugs, eh? I'm not lucky. I just know how to run away from incoming balls of plasma. Certain engineering consoles and shields help too. I'm also not lying. I have no reason to do so. I'm also not disconnected from pugs. I've had STF runs which lasts from 3 mins (pug!) to 15 mins or more (omg cloaking scimitar with pug). I've also failed STFs after spending 7 mins in it (sigh...Kang with pug).
Or you're not pugging on elite or on CCe. That's a fact. Because looking over the logs in ACT, not a single escort went with no deaths on a single pug I've done in this experiment.
The intent of your proposal seems to allow you to enjoy the game the way you want to enjoy it while PUG-ing. In an attempt to do that, you are forcing other people to conform to your idea on how it's meant to be played. Maybe you're mistaken about which party is the sociopath here. I don't see a big problem with PUGs. If there's one improvement I'd want to see, its for PUGs to do more damage on the enemies, not more healing on others.
As I also said, I don't even need to pug -- I'm suggesting it change to prevent pugs from being the universal "I quit" mechanism in the game -- especially being as it is in content you and any other player will spend 99% of their time. Again, my toons are maxed, each faction has anywhere from 8-28K marks unspent. I do it because I ENJOY HELPING OTHERS and perfecting my builds when there is nothing else to do.
So it is you who is making the wild assumptions in some rash attempt to discredit the point. Get hit with the brick too did you?
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
No, you prepositioned the "sociopath" as a QUESTION, (you know with the comma), and predisposition your "story" as a hypothetical condition or ASSUMPTION.
If it was anecdotal, it would have started, "<subject> being a <the facts here> is a sociopath?". Prepositioning your SUBJECT with IF, makes it hypothetical.
Lets try this again with notations:
If [conditional preposition] my science captain [subject] in a science ship does more damage than my entire team combined, takes more damage than my entire team combined, and dies the least out of everyone on the entire team, BUT isn't throwing around sci boff debuffs or healing others [conditions], then you're telling me that I'm a sociopath[question]?
But thanks for the trollfest.
The subject is "i" the verb is the contraction of "am". Everything up until the final comma is an antecedent, anecdotal clause. The entire sentence is a conditional proposition.
I'm not going to continue quoting, too much work...
But I remembered something very important... you say Holding Aggro is easy with the appropriate Aura...
You seem to forget that NO Romulan Vessel has these and I don't know about the Klingons (but read some posts about Klingon Ships not having this ability) so 66% of the Game would have an inherent disadvantage in your proposed System as they completely lack the appropriate Skill.
Regarding the State of the Human Condition... let's just say...
Building a House on Sand, just because you can make beautiful Sculptures out of it when it's wet is not a good Idea...
I hate it with a passion when people suggest something or demand it but are unable to provide at a working base.
Participation Quotient or whatever you want to call to call your futile attempt for Science Abilities?
I repeat myself, most of the Time the enemy is dead way to fast and what you propose would end up in a horrifically complicated and convoluted equation that may or may not work as Debuffs are highly situational.
Then again you have situations where I debuff something but it's completely useless as I am either unable, for whatever reason, to kill it then or nobody noticed it and didn't help, what then?
How would you accomodate for that, where I used my Abilities but it didn't worked out?
Should I be punished for not sticking with Tacscorts and watching HIS target to get my debuffs going essentially reducing myself to a glorified combat pet? Or woud you suggest to accomodate this as "normal participation" which would by itself again be a HUGE opportunity for Abuse.
And here we are again... you with your flawed view on humans and your subsequent inability to think about HOW MUCH you can abuse your system...
Sure they abuse it now but there is no logical reason to give them another field were they can start abusing the system and collect their loot.
What you propose is nothing more than treating (the wrong) symptoms (= forcing players to use inferior tactics to achieve "teamwork") but you ignore the illness (= Damage is the only thing that counts if you want to win the encounter).
"My science captain" cannot be the subject because it doesn't join with anything to form a complete sentence. Unless english is your secondary language, thats something you should've learned in elementary school.
The subject is "i" the verb is the contraction of "am". Everything up until the final comma is an antecedent, anecdotal clause. The entire sentence is a conditional proposition.
Then tell me Einstein, where is the subject? Because all anecdotes MUST have one. So which is it, its not a complete sentence, or its not an anecdote? Care to explain? Or are you simply trying to scatter thorns in hopes that one hits my foot while you're barefoot yourself?
How's my "Angrish" now?
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
I'm not going to continue quoting, too much work...
But I remembered something very important... you say Holding Aggro is easy with the appropriate Aura...
You seem to forget that NO Romulan Vessel has these and I don't know about the Klingons (but read some posts about Klingon Ships not having this ability) so 66% of the Game would have an inherent disadvantage in your proposed System as they completely lack the appropriate Skill.
Regarding the State of the Human Condition... let's just say...
Building a House on Sand, just because you can make beautiful Sculptures out of it when it's wet is not a good Idea...
I hate it with a passion when people suggest something or demand it but are unable to provide at a working base.
Participation Quotient or whatever you want to call to call your futile attempt for Science Abilities?
I repeat myself, most of the Time the enemy is dead way to fast and what you propose would end up in a horrifically complicated and convoluted equation that may or may not work as Debuffs are highly situational.
Then again you have situations where I debuff something but it's completely useless as I am either unable, for whatever reason, to kill it then or nobody noticed it and didn't help, what then?
How would you accomodate for that, where I used my Abilities but it didn't worked out?
As accomodating this as "normal participation" is again a HUGE opportunity for abuse.
And here we are again... you with your flawed view on humans and your subsequent inability to think about HOW MUCH you can abuse your system...
Sure they abuse it now but there is no logical reason to give them another field were they can start abusing the system and collect their loot.
What you propose is nothing more than treating (the wrong) symptoms (= forcing players to use inferior tactics to achieve "teamwork") but you ignore the illness (= Damage is the only thing that counts if you want to win the encounter).
They need to fix this then, but I'm pretty sure the same rulesets that applies to starfleet can't apply generically because of this very situation. Admittedly this was thought up entirely from a starfleet prospective and it is precisely this as what I was asking for in the suggestions and critique.
And again, you have proposed nothing, instead you seem to support the current system of ONLY rewarding a single anti-team play-style.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
Then tell me Einstein, where is the subject? Because all anecdotes MUST have one. So which is it, its not a complete sentence, or its not an anecdote? Care to explain?
The first paragraph was faulty because I'm getting sleepy.
The second paragraph is true. Everything up until the last comma is a clause.
I think you assume too much. I don't see how this is obviously not true and it's the opposite. In general, ships die because the captains that pilot them are bad. That's the simple truth. Well...bad luck do happen but if a ship consistently explodes, maybe the fault is due to the captain, not the pug? If a ship explodes in pug, but not in a group with fleet mates, then I think captain of the ship does not know how to adapt depending on the environment he or she is in.
Actually, I would contest this to a great degree. In my experience, the reason ships die is not necessarily because the captain is bad, but rather because the team is in-cohesive and inexperienced. Yes of course, there is always the so called "luck" factor ( though I personally dont believe in luck as for every situation there is a finite and traceable set of circumstances leading up to any given event ). One of the main reasons any military in the world today trains its people to work and act as a team, is because they know from centuries of experience that one non team player in there can get everybody killed. Pugs are really nothing more than very soft squad level operations, where teamwork is paramount to success. You can put a "bad" captain in a fleet or division and never notice he's there, but someone will because he's going to get someone killed.. That is more the reality of it all, rather than he died because he was a bad captain..
The first paragraph was faulty because I'm getting sleepy.
The second paragraph is true. Everything up until the last comma is a clause.
Then if read literally without assumption, the statement was indeed a question predicated by a hypothetical assumption? It took a few pages to do it, but you see what I did there? Asking me to assume what you want me to while not assume what you don't want me to while in your best interest?
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
Then tell me Einstein, where is the subject? Because all anecdotes MUST have one. So which is it, its not a complete sentence, or its not an anecdote? Care to explain?
Dude. Really? I feel like this is now just willful obfuscation on your part, because you don't want to admit that the initial question was on point and perfectly demonstrates that your proposal is more about trying to shame people who are (in your estimation) wrongbadplayers into playing the way you have decided is the best.
To answer your question, the sentence is "If <sufficient>, then <necessary result>?" The implication is that it is a question directed at you, in much the same way as "Shut up!" is understood contextually to be a command to the person being spoken to. The statement thus operates as a question about your belief in an If/then formal logic relationship. The fact that it starts with "if" in no way makes the sufficient a hypothetical, nor is it an unreal assumption.
Dude. Really? I feel like this is now just willful obfuscation on your part, because you don't want to admit that the initial question was on point and perfectly demonstrates that your proposal is more about trying to shame people who are (in your estimation) wrongbadplayers into playing the way you have decided is the best.
To answer your question, the sentence is "If <sufficient>, then <necessary result>?" The implication is that it is a question directed at you, in much the same way as "Shut up!" is understood contextually to be a command to the person being spoken to. The statement thus operates as a question about your belief in an If/then formal logic relationship. The fact that it starts with "if" in no way makes the sufficient a hypothetical, nor is it an unreal assumption.
Maybe it was just too deep for you, it was a point. To his original rebuttal, he tried to poke and point blame that I was assuming (which I was) to his statement which was (literally and without assumption) an assumption. It took 4 pages, but he realized the point finally: That he was trying to dictate where I should and should not assume things. I knew what he was trying to say, and assumed such even in my assumption as a counterargument. But as soon as he pointed out that it was an assumption, I wanted him to point it out himself that he was in the same sentence asking or expecting me to assume what he meant -- a double standard. He pointed this out.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
Welp I guess according to the OP I am a 'Sociopath'. Although I would personally disagree with his assessment.
Here is how I do group content. I go in, I do my best to help/carry the PuG to victory and get my prize. Chat is a waste of my time and the groups 9 times out of 10. I do not care how good the other players are, or the tactic they use. I do not expect cross heals but am always thankful when I receive them. If someone wants advice I will give it, but only if requested.
I find PuG chat to turn into a disaster area of 'blame game' or 'authority complex'. Honestly I don't care if you want to blow all 3 cubes at the same time in CSE or if you want to use MRRMLL or what have you. I can handle the raptor spawns it doesn't matter. I don't care if you blow a gen early in ISE I'll either destroy all the spawns before they get there or slap a GW/TBR/EWP/Whatever to hold them until we finish up. I will poke the ragers though if they start to whine I just can't help myself. I don't care if you heal/cc/dps/tank/etc that's your call, not mine.
I also nearly always get the optional and rarely explode. I bring what is required to ensure victory when possible. Gravity Well (ISE/CSE), tachyon beam(CE), etc.
Sorry but I have enough friends and commitments in real life to allow a game to fill that 'social' bubble of my life. Nor does the content require hardcore dedicated trinity role style teamwork to achieve victory. I'm here to have fun with pew pew and hope you are having fun as well.
Edit: I just remembered what I consider the OP style to be. That of the TryHard a style I find irritating. Don't tell me how to play the game unless I am having a severely direct negative effect upon the communities game experience.
The only way you get designated roles is when you give exclusive skills to those roles. Right now, if everyone can (and should) get defensive/healing/debuff-removing skills means the game can never achieve that specific role out of those ships.
I think it's great because it is a change from all the other MMOs. Reworking loot should (IMO) take another path.
As of now, I have problems getting BNPs because I don't hit the top damage charts, that is true. But I don't feel I should be boxed into a role because I chose to fly a cruiser.
"Starship captains are like children. They want everything right now and they want it their way. The secret is to give them what they need, not what they want."
- Scotty, to La Forge
The only way you get designated roles is when you give exclusive skills to those roles. Right now, if everyone can (and should) get defensive/healing/debuff-removing skills means the game can never achieve that specific role out of those ships.
I think it's great because it is a change from all the other MMOs. Reworking loot should (IMO) take another path.
As of now, I have problems getting BNPs because I don't hit the top damage charts, that is true. But I don't feel I should be boxed into a role because I chose to fly a cruiser.
And so you're saying it is fine to only cater to the DPS role? Reworking the loot -- that's PRECISELY what this thread is about.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
Welp I guess according to the OP I am a 'Sociopath'. Although I would personally disagree with his assessment.
Here is how I do group content. I go in, I do my best to help/carry the PuG to victory and get my prize. Chat is a waste of my time and the groups 9 times out of 10. I do not care how good the other players are, or the tactic they use. I do not expect cross heals but am always thankful when I receive them. If someone wants advice I will give it, but only if requested.
I find PuG chat to turn into a disaster area of 'blame game' or 'authority complex'. Honestly I don't care if you want to blow all 3 cubes at the same time in CSE or if you want to use MRRMLL or what have you. I can handle the raptor spawns it doesn't matter. I don't care if you blow a gen early in ISE I'll either destroy all the spawns before they get there or slap a GW/TBR/EWP/Whatever to hold them until we finish up. I will poke the ragers though if they start to whine I just can't help myself. I don't care if you heal/cc/dps/tank/etc that's your call, not mine.
I also nearly always get the optional and rarely explode. I bring what is required to ensure victory when possible. Gravity Well (ISE/CSE), tachyon beam(CE), etc.
Sorry but I have enough friends and commitments in real life to allow a game to fill that 'social' bubble of my life. Nor does the content require hardcore dedicated trinity role style teamwork to achieve victory. I'm here to have fun with pew pew and hope you are having fun as well.
Not everyone who doesn't chat right now is a sociopath. No where did I imply otherwise. As it stands the game doesn't give you a reason to chat and that's the point. The behavior that is ENCOURAGED is sociopathic and sadly it is the sociopaths that thrive under this reward system.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
There is a real problem in PUGs -- no one works as a team. This is in part to the type of person that runs through a pug and part because either there is a language barrier or people just aren't used to the melding of strategies.
I think the reason why there's no teamwork is that the addiditional gain from working as a team compared to everybody acting selfishly is so small hardly anybody cares. Most of the PvE fleet actions have become so easy they end up successfully in 19 out of 20 times. And the rewards for completing the optional are really not that great.
I would not call this behaviour sociopathic though. It's just the usual self centered individual maximizing utility while minimizing costs.
Comments
If you want, I'll be more than happy to demonstrate if you want to hop in game.
Aye, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe a system which rewards team effort and a higher tier of PUGs that requires this team effort will give people no option but to become more social than what they are. This could be a deeper problem with the game design and it being too easy -- I'm well aware of this.
Yes, I'm a US Army veteran, I have seen first hand what motivation can do. I believe if people are properly motivated in the right direction they tend to follow that direction -- for good or bad.
These friends were just all ST fans though -- the types that collects the model ships from every episode and movie :P. I merely stated what they told me and knowing them as the truthful types, that carries a lot of weight with me, but I understand not everyone is the same and that is fine.
I think it "could" be handled in such a way that abuse will be minimal. People abuse systems now to what we currently have, but we don't suggest less effort to the system, we suggest fixes. If the fixes have exploits for abuse, then by God, fix them too!
It would have to be a weighted algorithm system considering the contribution from each player (in addition to DPS) and offering (in the weight) multipliers to the scores (in a balanced way) when they say heal, or use a debuff that is exploited by the team while being the combination of officer and ship that is suited for it. Sadly I can give a list of what-nots; like a tacscort should not win first place because he healed someone, as much of a miraculous achievement as that would be, they should have focused on the DPS and offering this kind of support secondary if not reserving it for themselves being as you only get a max of 4-5 heals to begin with. Also, you would not want to guage an escort in his/her ability to tank. While, admittedly, these items can contribute to a group, it does not contribute as much as that escort holding back on the dps a little (agro can be controlled if the cruiser is trying) to let the cruiser keep agro.
That's not true either. Hitting the aura, and running into a mass of mobs with BFAW1, 2 or 3 guarantees agro for at least until it refreshes.
Agreed, and this will have to be accounted for. If damage gets a score modifier of say 1.0 for everyone, but a tacscort gets a modifier of 1.1 for the scoreboard, and tykens rift gets a contributory modifier (from a sci vessel) of say 110.0 in which they also get points dumped into this by any gained dps by all other players, this could be fair considering that the sci ship usually has an arsenal of many more debuffs that could give huge jumps on the leader-board each time they're strategically used.
You didn't even notice the ships are "primaries" and the captains "tertiary" did you?
I think you got hit with the brick. Obviously this is not true, because it is just the opposite. Cruisers are encouraged through higher reward not to heal dps classes -- because if they die, their dps goes down, and then the surviving cruiser can reap that reward when it is completely counter-intuitive of the ship they're piloting.
You must be lucky, from the parses of all of the pugs I've done in this experiment thus far, shows escorts with a 4:1 death ratio to ALL other ship types. So either you're outright lying to stop a train from rolling over your agenda, or you're disconnected with pugs and not qualified to make such a comment -- which is it?.
If you're not "for" a change in the current system you're obviously content with the way it is. I haven't seen a counter-suggestion which furthers this circumstantial observation as substantial. If you have stated otherwise and have a better suggestion, by all means, feel free to clarify.
As for the rest, the problem lies with how modern MMO's are structured.
Back in the days of EverQuest (EQ, yes I'm going way back to 1999/2000) you had to group to level, the mobs (mobiles, aka monsters and hostile npcs) that gave good experience couldn't be handled by a single player unless they were a very particular class, like a druid who could fear kite, the rest had to group up, and SOE/Verant at the time admitted that EQ featured forced grouping, to get that D&D feel.
Social interaction was key, but there were problems with it, because of forced grouping leveling was slow, if you came on outside of prime time, or on a less desired class you had wait, or do other stuff, what eventually broke me in that game was that I sat in the only real good zone to level at 51, for two weeks straight, most of the days going for an hour or more "Lvl 51 ranger lfg" and not getting ANY invites, so I couldn't level.
WoW and other games of it's generation, started the current age of MMO's, in this leveling was a solo experience that could be shared if you wanted to, and was only required to group up during leveling for optional dungeons.
So many players in the current generation of games end up with little to no grouping experience till they hit max level, and they are suddenly forced to group, so because they often aren't in a guild/clan/fleet they'll PuG
And that is the problem of the current generation of MMO's, it won something back from it's D&D roots, but it also lost something in return.
Where as the previous generation had little in the way quests, and leveling was just an endless but grouped grind of mob killing. (tho you were forced to group and interact with others)
The current generation won back it's D&D questing roots, but lost the group aspect, why, because game designers realized that MMO players liked to be the hero of their own epic story, not that of their groupmates, their own, they are the hero, and the questing also breaks the monotony of the endless mob grind, and speeds it up because turning in a quest rewards experience on it's own.
The forced social aspect is done away with during the leveling experience for player to feel strong and epic on his own, you are saving the planet/galaxy/universe/multiverse.
Star Wars the Old Republic is probably the best and most extreme example of this, the game is often quoted as "being the best single player experience in a MMORPG", an it is, many players, myself included, play that game solely for the class story quests, which play like any epic Bioware single player RPG, like Mass Effect or Dragon Age, I try to play the multi-player "dungeons" but most people in the group want to rush trough the cutscenes because they don't care, have seen it several times before, and in the end what happens there doesn't impact the overall multi-chapter class story, so most of the times I do them once or skip them altogether.
If you haven't had any previous experience in MMO's you'll probably do the nice thing first when the pass/greed/need loot window pops up for the first time, you pass, or you greed if you really don't need it, and they'll quickly notice nobody is using those options, everyone needs, so they start needing everything themselves as well.
This is problem that started all the way back in the earliest games with loot rules, lootwhoring and even ninjalooting, and unless you're in a group that agreed upon a good set of loot rules, basically meaning you have to socialize, everyone has to need so they'll be sure to get at least a chance at the item they want, or any form of reward for the effort they put in.
In WoW this was eventually curtailed by implementing a set of loot rules into the loot window, items that one couldn't use, or stats that were completely useless to certain classes could not be needed by those classes, only greeded or passed, this alleviated some of the lootwhoring in WoW pugs.
The problem in STO is technically everyone can use anything for what ever crazy build they like, want to be an engineering captain flying science ship doing dps with a totally unfit set of consoles, you can.
And if you want to make lots of EC in STO, you play the Exchange and vendor useless gear no one wants, if you're smart you'll use your doffs an lots of rare commodities, or those rare consoles form the strange alien device, for most that is just too tedious and they just grab the loot from the STF's and earn their keep that way.
To end needless "needing" of items, STO would have to put in a lootsystem like WoW has, restrict certain items/consoles/etc to certain classes, but you'll hurt the uniqueness of the player builds that way, and you'll have an unknown effect on the economy and the way players make EC in STO, cause the way most players make big jumps in EC, is selling the loot on the Exchange.
As a final point I want to say that, this is the nature of pugs, they are Pick Up Groups, 5 strangers thrown together to complete a task, coordination is and always will be limited, it is expected you either know the encounter or learn as you go, and what if you lose, you can queue for an other one right away, and for the same one in 20min.
There is also the fact that you can run most pugs in STO, and die dozens of times without taking any damage in most of them, where is the reason or need to heal anyone exactly, where the giant repair bill that forces me to do better in pugs like in other MMO's, where if I die too often my gear breaks and all the bonuses from that piece are gone till I repair it, that is also a motivational tool, yes there are a few elite ones where that rule applies, but, going by timers on them, most people play Azure Nebula, Elachi Alert, and Vault Ensared, none of which incur any damage on your ship at all, while other MMO's even incur damage during combat, and death while leveling.
The problem lies not only in the players, but how the game gets the players to max level, and that is a hard, if not impossible thing to change, especially in the current generation of mmo's.
The only problem with regular stf's is that the "top" rewards are only Mk X, and you only get 480 dil. I can only assume that the reason that the elite players go into stf's is because of the number of inexperienced/loner/egodriven/non team oriented players showing up in Estf's. Lets face it. pug groups in ISE or KASE are a regular revolving theme on these boards. it happens constantly, but thats life.. Oh well.. There will lways be cowboys and those still learning to mess things up for everyone else. Perhaps they'll improve..
I dont know. Personally I think that once you get your ship to where it's working the way you want it too, the loot means nothing. You dont need it.. the only reason to run estf's is to challenge yourself and try to do better than you did the last time you ran it.. Now thats better as a team member, not some buckaroo top gun look at me type of idiot, which we've all been at one time or another..
I was in ISE a day or so ago, and it was awesome.. Four minutes from beginning to end. We rolled through there like a tank swatting flies.. It wa awesome. i loved it.. Everybody was a team player. Everybody knew their jobs, and no one lost so much as one point off shields or hull..
There was another time not too long ago when somehow, we ended up with five scimitars in ISE at the same time. When we got to the gate, something clicked and we all hit thaleron at the exact same moment.. The gate simply vanished in that one single puff and we sat there laughing our asses off.. moments like those make the game fun for me and i cherish them hen they happen. But not everyone is like me and i accept that. I dont need the loot. I'm just looking for a smile..
I can guess which makes it HYPOTHETICAL which is the ANTITHESIS of an anecdote. Or do you not comprehend your own literature?
Are you looking for a fleet? /shameless attempt :P
Going back to quote myself is frustrating, making it work with two other quotes in a post is more-so. However as it was necessary, I have.
Ok, I completely missed that! That's entirely my fault. The entire system is meant to fix the game, not break it. I would expect and want players to offer up real suggestions to tweak or fix a plan or this one to get something that could be implemented that incites if not requires team effort for substantially better rewards. With that said, constructive criticizem is the subject phrase. Criticizem alone provides nothing, offering suggestions with it, goes a lot further.
::chuckles:: Thank you, but I'm already in a very wonderful ( in my opinion ) fleet..
I'll say this again, and I quote, "The hypothetical is whether or not the person is a sociopath, not the anecdotal situation itself. Of course, you wouldn't comprehend that because to you, whether or not the person is a sociopath is not up for debate. But since the paragraph started with an "if", you decided to transform the anecdote into an assumption to fit whatever is going on inside your head."
You ASSUMED that there was more to the anecdote than what I wrote. I called you out on it and we've been playing merry-go-round ever since.
No, you prepositioned the "sociopath" as a QUESTION, (you know with the comma), and predisposition your "story" as a hypothetical condition or ASSUMPTION.
If it was anecdotal, it would have started, "<subject> being a <the facts here> is a sociopath?". Prepositioning your SUBJECT with IF, makes it hypothetical.
Lets try this again with notations:
But thanks for the trollfest.
The Joker is a sociopath. Quite talented at it, too. While more times than not, I avoid ESTFs in general and PUGs specifically, I am not, as a rule, fixed on destroying/deranging STO for my sole benefit or amusement.
When I do PUG, I do my part to support the team. Which includes leaving the Chat Window open so I can read or hear the abuse heaped upon myself or some other player by someone else because we're "Not Doing It Right!"
Here are my opinions after reading in its entirety your post. Mind you, my opinions are just like the last opening in everyone's alimentary canal. We all have them and they usually do not have a fragrant aroma.
1) pwe/cryptic js doing it all wrong again. If they would just listen to you, STO would be a much more enjoyable game. For you.
2) Every other person who is playing STO is doing it all wrong. If they would just listen to you, STO would be a much more enjoyable game. For you.
Treating your fellow STO players like lab rats shows what you truly think of the rest of us. Could you please post your handle so I can add you to my Ignore list today?
Kthanxbai!
Some 3-6% of Americans are sociopaths, to say this wasn't the case would be to deny the facts. But if the shoe fits.
The Joker also didn't think he had a problem, eliminated obstacles, and lacked any empathy whatsoever. Indeed he was a sociopath, but an extreme sociopath. I do appreciate you giving me the chance to point out the similarities in this community though.
So, just so I'm not misunderstanding this. You leave your chat window open just so you can get entertainment out of the complaints you are causing to others? Can we say SOCIOPATH/TROLL? Maybe I misunderstood, as it would seem you are suggesting that you leave your chat window open just to hear people complaining about you and others. This would also suggest that you seek entertainment on other people's hardships, not a viable point for you to say the least.
Somehow, attempting to point out that I welcomed feedback and suggestions of solutions to the problem in the OP wouldn't help you realize that its not "for me" being as I have 3 MAXED toons so whether or not I pug or not, its not like it is something that destroy's my time when someone screws up an option -- however it pains me to see players (NOT ME OBVIOUSLY) leave the game because of the rampant sociopathic problem this game rewards.
Again, I don't believe bringing up that I outright asked for suggestions and feedback to be anything that would sway your opinion because it would seem I'm your obstacle and in your way now and I need to be eliminated. Sound about right?
Treating being the key word -- he was paid 10Mil EC and given every choice to decline without consequence. But I can see how it would infuriate you to the point as to place as much conjecture and blasphemy on the facts as possible to discredit it -- I would if I were a sociopath.
But tell you what, give me your handle and I'll give you mine. I'd love to list your name in our fleet's global ignore and watch list.
I did. Which part did I say about the cruiser captain being tactical?
I think you assume too much. I don't see how this is obviously not true and it's the opposite. In general, ships die because the captains that pilot them are bad. That's the simple truth. Well...bad luck do happen but if a ship consistently explodes, maybe the fault is due to the captain, not the pug? If a ship explodes in pug, but not in a group with fleet mates, then I think captain of the ship does not know how to adapt depending on the environment he or she is in.
Fascinating. I'm either lucky, lying or disconnected from pugs, eh? I'm not lucky. I just know how to run away from incoming balls of plasma. Certain engineering consoles and shields help too. I'm also not lying. I have no reason to do so. I'm also not disconnected from pugs. I've had STF runs which lasts from 3 mins (pug!) to 15 mins or more (omg cloaking scimitar with pug). I've also failed STFs after spending 7 mins in it (sigh...Kang with pug).
The intent of your proposal seems to allow you to enjoy the game the way you want to enjoy it while PUG-ing. In an attempt to do that, you are forcing other people to conform to your idea on how it's meant to be played. Maybe you're mistaken about which party is the sociopath here. I don't see a big problem with PUGs. If there's one improvement I'd want to see, its for PUGs to do more damage on the enemies, not more healing on others.
And you didn't see where nearly every play style besides non-group oriented styles are accommodated and rated?
This is inference. You have to apply a little logic to understand that the only jackpot reward in PUGs at the current are for those with the most damage. This means that it is not productive for a cruiser to heal a tacscort, because when the tacscort dies, his overall damage is severely diminished from the respawn cooldown. Because of this, it is inferred (and opposite to your statement) that cruisers are indeed rewarded for denying heals and support to those who need it.
My experiment I ran early this morning was also crystal clear about this as well, showing the reward for being a sociopath was some 1000% more rewarding than being a team player -- and this is so very wrong.
Or you're not pugging on elite or on CCe. That's a fact. Because looking over the logs in ACT, not a single escort went with no deaths on a single pug I've done in this experiment.
As I also said, I don't even need to pug -- I'm suggesting it change to prevent pugs from being the universal "I quit" mechanism in the game -- especially being as it is in content you and any other player will spend 99% of their time. Again, my toons are maxed, each faction has anywhere from 8-28K marks unspent. I do it because I ENJOY HELPING OTHERS and perfecting my builds when there is nothing else to do.
So it is you who is making the wild assumptions in some rash attempt to discredit the point. Get hit with the brick too did you?
The subject is "i" the verb is the contraction of "am". Everything up until the final comma is an antecedent, anecdotal clause. The entire sentence is a conditional proposition.
But I remembered something very important... you say Holding Aggro is easy with the appropriate Aura...
You seem to forget that NO Romulan Vessel has these and I don't know about the Klingons (but read some posts about Klingon Ships not having this ability) so 66% of the Game would have an inherent disadvantage in your proposed System as they completely lack the appropriate Skill.
Regarding the State of the Human Condition... let's just say...
Building a House on Sand, just because you can make beautiful Sculptures out of it when it's wet is not a good Idea...
I hate it with a passion when people suggest something or demand it but are unable to provide at a working base.
Participation Quotient or whatever you want to call to call your futile attempt for Science Abilities?
I repeat myself, most of the Time the enemy is dead way to fast and what you propose would end up in a horrifically complicated and convoluted equation that may or may not work as Debuffs are highly situational.
Then again you have situations where I debuff something but it's completely useless as I am either unable, for whatever reason, to kill it then or nobody noticed it and didn't help, what then?
How would you accomodate for that, where I used my Abilities but it didn't worked out?
Should I be punished for not sticking with Tacscorts and watching HIS target to get my debuffs going essentially reducing myself to a glorified combat pet? Or woud you suggest to accomodate this as "normal participation" which would by itself again be a HUGE opportunity for Abuse.
And here we are again... you with your flawed view on humans and your subsequent inability to think about HOW MUCH you can abuse your system...
Sure they abuse it now but there is no logical reason to give them another field were they can start abusing the system and collect their loot.
What you propose is nothing more than treating (the wrong) symptoms (= forcing players to use inferior tactics to achieve "teamwork") but you ignore the illness (= Damage is the only thing that counts if you want to win the encounter).
Then tell me Einstein, where is the subject? Because all anecdotes MUST have one. So which is it, its not a complete sentence, or its not an anecdote? Care to explain? Or are you simply trying to scatter thorns in hopes that one hits my foot while you're barefoot yourself?
How's my "Angrish" now?
They need to fix this then, but I'm pretty sure the same rulesets that applies to starfleet can't apply generically because of this very situation. Admittedly this was thought up entirely from a starfleet prospective and it is precisely this as what I was asking for in the suggestions and critique.
And again, you have proposed nothing, instead you seem to support the current system of ONLY rewarding a single anti-team play-style.
The first paragraph was faulty because I'm getting sleepy.
The second paragraph is true. Everything up until the last comma is a clause.
Actually, I would contest this to a great degree. In my experience, the reason ships die is not necessarily because the captain is bad, but rather because the team is in-cohesive and inexperienced. Yes of course, there is always the so called "luck" factor ( though I personally dont believe in luck as for every situation there is a finite and traceable set of circumstances leading up to any given event ). One of the main reasons any military in the world today trains its people to work and act as a team, is because they know from centuries of experience that one non team player in there can get everybody killed. Pugs are really nothing more than very soft squad level operations, where teamwork is paramount to success. You can put a "bad" captain in a fleet or division and never notice he's there, but someone will because he's going to get someone killed.. That is more the reality of it all, rather than he died because he was a bad captain..
Then if read literally without assumption, the statement was indeed a question predicated by a hypothetical assumption? It took a few pages to do it, but you see what I did there? Asking me to assume what you want me to while not assume what you don't want me to while in your best interest?
Dude. Really? I feel like this is now just willful obfuscation on your part, because you don't want to admit that the initial question was on point and perfectly demonstrates that your proposal is more about trying to shame people who are (in your estimation) wrongbadplayers into playing the way you have decided is the best.
To answer your question, the sentence is "If <sufficient>, then <necessary result>?" The implication is that it is a question directed at you, in much the same way as "Shut up!" is understood contextually to be a command to the person being spoken to. The statement thus operates as a question about your belief in an If/then formal logic relationship. The fact that it starts with "if" in no way makes the sufficient a hypothetical, nor is it an unreal assumption.
Maybe it was just too deep for you, it was a point. To his original rebuttal, he tried to poke and point blame that I was assuming (which I was) to his statement which was (literally and without assumption) an assumption. It took 4 pages, but he realized the point finally: That he was trying to dictate where I should and should not assume things. I knew what he was trying to say, and assumed such even in my assumption as a counterargument. But as soon as he pointed out that it was an assumption, I wanted him to point it out himself that he was in the same sentence asking or expecting me to assume what he meant -- a double standard. He pointed this out.
Here is how I do group content. I go in, I do my best to help/carry the PuG to victory and get my prize. Chat is a waste of my time and the groups 9 times out of 10. I do not care how good the other players are, or the tactic they use. I do not expect cross heals but am always thankful when I receive them. If someone wants advice I will give it, but only if requested.
I find PuG chat to turn into a disaster area of 'blame game' or 'authority complex'. Honestly I don't care if you want to blow all 3 cubes at the same time in CSE or if you want to use MRRMLL or what have you. I can handle the raptor spawns it doesn't matter. I don't care if you blow a gen early in ISE I'll either destroy all the spawns before they get there or slap a GW/TBR/EWP/Whatever to hold them until we finish up. I will poke the ragers though if they start to whine I just can't help myself. I don't care if you heal/cc/dps/tank/etc that's your call, not mine.
I also nearly always get the optional and rarely explode. I bring what is required to ensure victory when possible. Gravity Well (ISE/CSE), tachyon beam(CE), etc.
Sorry but I have enough friends and commitments in real life to allow a game to fill that 'social' bubble of my life. Nor does the content require hardcore dedicated trinity role style teamwork to achieve victory. I'm here to have fun with pew pew and hope you are having fun as well.
Edit: I just remembered what I consider the OP style to be. That of the TryHard a style I find irritating. Don't tell me how to play the game unless I am having a severely direct negative effect upon the communities game experience.
I think it's great because it is a change from all the other MMOs. Reworking loot should (IMO) take another path.
As of now, I have problems getting BNPs because I don't hit the top damage charts, that is true. But I don't feel I should be boxed into a role because I chose to fly a cruiser.
- Scotty, to La Forge
No. The first clause is an anecdote. The second clause is a hypothetical question.
And so you're saying it is fine to only cater to the DPS role? Reworking the loot -- that's PRECISELY what this thread is about.
Where was the comma after If then? Were you wanting me to assume that?
Not everyone who doesn't chat right now is a sociopath. No where did I imply otherwise. As it stands the game doesn't give you a reason to chat and that's the point. The behavior that is ENCOURAGED is sociopathic and sadly it is the sociopaths that thrive under this reward system.
I think the reason why there's no teamwork is that the addiditional gain from working as a team compared to everybody acting selfishly is so small hardly anybody cares. Most of the PvE fleet actions have become so easy they end up successfully in 19 out of 20 times. And the rewards for completing the optional are really not that great.
I would not call this behaviour sociopathic though. It's just the usual self centered individual maximizing utility while minimizing costs.