If my science captain in a science ship does more damage than my entire team combined, takes more damage than my entire team combined, and dies the least out of everyone on the entire team, BUT isn't throwing around sci boff debuffs or healing others, then you're telling me that I'm a sociopath?
I hate to break this to you OP, but "lone wolfing" it in PvE pugs isn't being anti-social or a sociopath.
More along the lines of not paying attention of anything but your target, and not looking out for others in the group, in many cases. However, this is not true in all instances.
I don't agree with any kind of system to punish such behavior, or general overhaul of the current system, considering that lack of coordination for legit reasons is often the problem.
You do realize that just about every MMO out there has team dungeons much like our episodes and PVE's, yes? What really separates this from other "multiplayer" games is the fact it is server side hit detection, and that there are open combat zones where massive amounts of players compete for mobs and/or objectives. To say STO is not an MMO is as false of an assessment as you could give.
Your answer has curiously nothing to do with what has been presented...
Simply ignoring the fact that Threat Control seems to not work (as per the Post you answered to) is not very social.
Thank you for the clarification. I am not, or would I ever suggest that a player be penalized for doing damage, to the contrary, I'm suggesting they be rewarded more for working as a team. Think about it: Most engineers in a decent cruiser and solo most PVE's with decent dps, and their own self heals with some to spare -- SOLO. This is already somewhat in place in the episodes as a team of a greater number seems to be rewarded with more rare drops than a solo run. There is no reason that any escort should be (as they already are) penalized for being an tacscort and being denied a heal for doing what they're supposed to do. To throw your teammate under the bus to lower his overall damage because he's a high dps class, is counter-intuitive to a team function. And that's the premise of the idea.
And yet you are still ignoring anything I said regarding socialisation...
As per now... I can only assume you don't care about "the Social Enviroment" and you just want a way that forces people to heal and buff you...
To your random heals: If, the game calculated actual health restored per second as a scoring mechanism, it would work as a random heal would have nothing or little to heal.
I answered that in my first post here but I spare you the additional mouseclick:
Fly into the enemy, get damaged, heal, repeat... No need to care about anything but yourself and still be #1!
If you want to restrict self heals... you will only create Duos of these people... both alternating in the above setup with the other one healing accordingly.
And again you are ignoring parts like how do you expect Science to be measured correctly?
Besides the fact that any moderately competent Tacscort will kill the enemy faster than a Cruiser can work up "aggro" (if it would work correctly) or any Science can put out Debuffs...
It is not a strange and rare occurence that I am the first to arrive at the enemy, put my debuffs out only to see the enemy exploding right away because a Tac flew by...
Wasting my Debuffs, putting me on Cooldown and then some Tac starts complaining why I can't do sh*t and "play for the team".
If my science captain in a science ship does more damage than my entire team combined, takes more damage than my entire team combined, and dies the least out of everyone on the entire team, BUT isn't throwing around sci boff debuffs or healing others, then you're telling me that I'm a sociopath?
...sure, why not.
You said it. Obviously, if that were the case, you also wouldn't be the only sociopath in the group either. But no, to be clear, in such a case as that, you would likely win it by healing yourself, however someone in the team that was healing YOU while you were taking the entire time, being a cruiser or science officer should knock you off the leader-boards for playing as a team and not a one-man genitalia measuring contest.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
You said it. Obviously, if that were the case, you also wouldn't be the only sociopath in the group either. But no, to be clear, in such a case as that, you would likely win it by healing yourself, however someone in the team that was healing YOU while you were taking the entire time, being a cruiser or science officer should knock you off the leader-boards for playing as a team and not a one-man genitalia measuring contest.
I already said it was soloable, in the very post you're quoting. How does this make it a non-mmo?
Sorry but my definition of a multiplayer game includes a requirement for players to coordinate efforts if only in endgame group content, else they WILL fail missions. But as you're obviously the resident expert on things...
Your answer has curiously nothing to do with what has been presented...
Simply ignoring the fact that Threat Control seems to not work (as per the Post you answered to) is not very social.
Sorry, I didn't see that as a question, I saw it as a false assessment and ignored it and I mean that in a non-insulting way as I tried to avoid the conflict entirely. The fact is, with the new cruiser commands, retaining proper agro from the best dps in the game is manageable, very much so in fact, while giving you more of a survivability buff by the more people you have under the aura. In this case, threat training isn't even necessary as I've seen mobs peel off of me in fleet events for a mere heal thrown to me.
So to answer your question, PWE already addressed this issue with the cruiser command auras.
And yet you are still ignoring anything I said regarding socialisation...
I addressed this already in a previous post. I don't like reposting as I have some expectation that folks will read the thread. However, to save you the click, I said that it was not a guaranteed way to ensure socialization, however it would encourage it MORE than the current system which rewards the opposite.
As per now... I can only assume you don't care about "the Social Enviroment" and you just want a way that forces people to heal and buff you...
And you made a direly incorrect assumption. My ship of choice is the Chimera in PUGs which doesn't require heals. However, (if you would have read, and to save you the click) not everyone has access to this nor can they afford it, as with the four friends I explained that have lost interest in STO entirely, and in one of their words which all share the same sentiment, "The game is very antisocial and lacks team-play". Its a very bad thing when you have four avid Trekkies who are repelled from the game the moment they do a PVE in a VA 2500z ship.
I answered that in my first post here but I spare you the additional mouseclick:
Fly into the enemy, get damaged, heal, repeat... No need to care about anything but yourself and still be #1!
If you want to restrict self heals... you will only create Duos of these people... both alternating in the above setup with the other one healing accordingly.
Again, I see your concern, but you are making some leaps on assumptions that are pushing these concerns out of the realm of reality. For instance, if another science vessel also heals them, they would be competitive for a leaderboard slot, so doing someone else's job wouldn't be beneficial unless that type of player simply doesn't exist in the PVE (I know it happens and it sucks).
And again you are ignoring parts like how do you expect Science to be measured correctly?
You are asking me to get into precise numbers without having any understanding of the source code of the STO servers. This is not something that I can explain, this is for the development team to take a look at and deploy. What I have lodged are mere ideas and suggestions that are well founded in a great start to rooting out the problem of antisocial behaviors in PUGs.
Besides the fact that any moderately competent Tacscort will kill the enemy faster as an Cruiser can work up "aggro" (if it would work correctly) or any Science can put out Debuffs...
I highly doubt, unless you can parse 30K+ sustained, that you could pull agro off of any VA cruiser in my fleet. And that's the problem. The game is so antisocial, no one really knows how to do their job in the first place, so they resort to doing what's "easy". I know this sounds terrible to say out loud, but it is the absolute truth. Cruisers that know what they're doing will NEVER let aggro dump to a tacscort. I would be more than willing to explain to you how this is done.
It is not a strange and rare occurence that I am the first to arrive at the enemy, put my debuffs out only to see the enemy exploding right away because a Tac flew by...
Wasting my Debuffs, putting me on Cooldown and then start complaining why I can't do sh*t and "play for the team".
The fact is that your debuffs contributed to the mob's "splat" effect is attributed damage and should put you right beside him in that case because obviously, he didn't put out "that" much damage on one mob and the fact that you got your debuff to stick which helped his damage, would push you be right beside him on the scoreboard.
I'll be the first to admit, a LOT of consideration MUST go into balance for this system to work, it also MUST be flexible in accommodating many team-oriented play-styles. You won't hear me speak against this.
I was replying to an assumption, thanks for circularizing it, troll.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
Sorry but my definition of a multiplayer game includes a requirement for players to coordinate efforts if only in endgame group content, else they WILL fail missions. But as you're obviously the resident expert on things...
That's just not true. Many MMO's out there have a single-player (solo) play-aspect. EverQuest2, WOW, DDO, Rift, Neverwinter, and many more. Sure, to get the BETTER REWARDS you must PLAY AS A TEAM, which is PRECISELY the point I'm making. How dare you make my point for me :P
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
You may also wish to consider the possibility of a selection bias - most of those who do support their teammates would of course be more social, and thus gravitate towards doing such missions with fleets, friends, or even chat channels, instead of the public queues. This would result in your sample being biased towards sociopathic behaviour. This is especially true for tougher missions such as HSE (notorious for sudden, unavoidable deaths) and CSE (notoriously easy to fail if done with a PUG, due to the necessity for significant damage to stop the Borg ships before they reach the Kang). Therefore, you might be overestimating things.
I do think that your conjecture on the reason why you don't see those messages asking for help isn't right. I don't think it's sociopathic behaviour - rather, it could be being unable to recognise that the player him/herself needs advice/help, or a perception that he/she is correct in his/her actions (as in, being mistaken that this is the right way to do things), and thus not needing to ask for advice.
Also, I find that the deaths of teammates tend to be unavoidable. As in, unless one had a dedicated healer build, your available heals are unable to keep the person from dying. Also, most of the time, the basic team-castable heals available are HoTs - which means that by the time a person appears to be in trouble, the heals others send will not be sufficient to keep him up. This is especially true if the person is currently set to do damage - any heals he can send are often Aux-dependent (AtS, HE and TSS) and thus weak - too weak to save someone who is on the ropes. This also ignores the possibility that the Tacscort is purposefully dropping hull in order to bring up GDF. I have been chewed out on occasion by an escort trying to do this after sending over a heal.
In other words, what I am trying to say is that sending heals over to a Tacscort tends to make little difference. Thus, I suggest something you may want to consider - how many times were your deaths due to something unavoidable e.g. a sudden crit?
Additional biases may include the simple unawareness that a type of heal can be sent to teammates in the first place. There is also the prevalence of a certain type of build on cruisers - AtB - which reduces healing ability, especially team healing, in exchange for far more offensive power.
There is also the possibility that the mission is such that the player has previously found that more damage is more effective at completing the mission than carrying extra heals. After all, these missions can be completed without teamheals, but they are very difficult to complete without damage. The PUG queue itself works with this - if a player does not know who his teammates will be, it is better to bring an additional damage dealer - which is always useful - as opposed to an extra healer, which could lead to insufficient damage.
Another interesting thing is your inclusion of Crystalline Catastrophe in your study. That mission already takes into account amount of healing done in awarding rewards at the end - and it does not appear to have had much of an effect.
Oh, and I am against any vote-to-kick option. Such an option would be far too easy to abuse.
I was replying to an assumption, thanks for circularizing it, troll.
No, you were replying to an anecdote.
So let me get this straight....
If I make an anecdote, then someone else adds an assumption, then I point that out, not only does my anecdote transform into an assumption, but I am also a troll.
You may also wish to consider the possibility of a selection bias - most of those who do support their teammates would of course be more social, and thus gravitate towards doing such missions with fleets, friends, or even chat channels, instead of the public queues. This would result in your sample being biased towards sociopathic behaviour. This is especially true for tougher missions such as HSE (notorious for sudden, unavoidable deaths) and CSE (notoriously easy to fail if done with a PUG, due to the necessity for significant damage to stop the Borg ships before they reach the Kang). Therefore, you might be overestimating things.
I do think that your conjecture on the reason why you don't see those messages asking for help isn't right. I don't think it's sociopathic behaviour - rather, it could be being unable to recognise that the player him/herself needs advice/help, or a perception that he/she is correct in his/her actions (as in, being mistaken that this is the right way to do things), and thus not needing to ask for advice.
Also, I find that the deaths of teammates tend to be unavoidable. As in, unless one had a dedicated healer build, your available heals are unable to keep the person from dying. Also, most of the time, the basic team-castable heals available are HoTs - which means that by the time a person appears to be in trouble, the heals others send will not be sufficient to keep him up. This is especially true if the person is currently set to do damage - any heals he can send are often Aux-dependent (AtS, HE and TSS) and thus weak - too weak to save someone who is on the ropes. This also ignores the possibility that the Tacscort is purposefully dropping hull in order to bring up GDF. I have been chewed out on occasion by an escort trying to do this after sending over a heal.
In other words, what I am trying to say is that sending heals over to a Tacscort tends to make little difference. Thus, I suggest something you may want to consider - how many times were your deaths due to something unavoidable e.g. a sudden crit?
Additional biases may include the simple unawareness that a type of heal can be sent to teammates in the first place. There is also the prevalence of a certain type of build on cruisers - AtB - which reduces healing ability, especially team healing, in exchange for far more offensive power.
There is also the possibility that the mission is such that the player has previously found that more damage is more effective at completing the mission than carrying extra heals. After all, these missions can be completed without teamheals, but they are very difficult to complete without damage. The PUG queue itself works with this - if a player does not know who his teammates will be, it is better to bring an additional damage dealer - which is always useful - as opposed to an extra healer, which could lead to insufficient damage.
Another interesting thing is your inclusion of Crystalline Catastrophe in your study. That mission already takes into account amount of healing done in awarding rewards at the end - and it does not appear to have had much of an effect.
Oh, and I am against any vote-to-kick option. Such an option would be far too easy to abuse.
Right, I understand the bias in the sample group. However, not everyone in a fleet will be immune from being compelled to pug, and in the larger fleets that have 24/7 members online are generally so large, the same issue plagues their fleet events (this is true of the 3 fleets I was in before I created this one).
I will agree entirely about votekick, but there are measures PWE can take to minimize this:
1) Make it so the refill for the kicked player is a random player and not a friend
2) Make it so the entire team has to vote for the kick with the exception of the player being kicked
3) Make it so players can be reported and banned for abusing the system.
4) Automatically forfeit the optional
5) Disallow votekicks after the optional is won or lost.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
Honestly, I find that refreshing not to have a role pre-determined in this game.
It is true that everyone has shields and hull resistance and can take some beating as opposed to a Rogue or a Mage in a typical RPG
In essence, when we face an enemy, 3 choices are open to us.
1- We all go weapons high to put the dog down asap
2- Some (cruisers) can try to get love from the enemy so others can beat him down quickly
3- Some can try to support others with heals, hinder the enemy so it can easily be killed, etc.
The goal is to win the battle. That's it.
In the end, whatever ship you have, you can fill whatever role you wish to, and that is great! That is why STO is different. We're not stuck in a predefined role.
True, some ships are better than others at a particular role but it is the player that make it so.
As for anti-social behaviors, it is a bigger, deeper problem in this century. People prefer to text than to make a phone call and talk. This says it all...
Cheers
"Starship captains are like children. They want everything right now and they want it their way. The secret is to give them what they need, not what they want."
- Scotty, to La Forge
If I make an anecdote, then someone else adds an assumption, then I point that out, not only does my anecdote transform into an assumption, but I am also a troll.
....sure, why not.
Obviously you don't know the definition of anecdote.
The person was giving a hypothetical situation -- made obvious by the fact that this plan is not something players in STO are surviving under. Therefor, it cannot be an anecdote, because it is a fictitious hypothetical event (ie, so you're saying that IF <-- being the key word) which is an hypothetical situation assumed under this ruleset. It was indeed a hypothetical assumption and you remain a troll.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
Honestly, I find that refreshing not to have a role pre-determined in this game.
It is true that everyone has shields and hull resistance and can take some beating as opposed to a Rogue or a Mage in a typical RPG
In essence, when we face an enemy, 3 choices are open to us.
1- We all go weapons high to put the dog down asap
2- Some (cruisers) can try to get love from the enemy so others can beat him down quickly
3- Some can try to support others with heals, hinder the enemy so it can easily be killed, etc.
The goal is to win the battle. That's it.
In the end, whatever ship you have, you can fill whatever role you wish to, and that is great! That is why STO is different. We're not stuck in a predefined role.
True, some ships are better than others at a particular role but it is the player that make it so.
As for anti-social behaviors, it is a bigger, deeper problem in this century. People prefer to text than to make a phone call and talk. This says it all...
Cheers
At the moment, there is only one role rewarded, DPS. Anything would be refreshing to that. But for clarity, this system will give the player a LOT more flexibility than what is currently there as long as that role benefits the group and not just themselves.
It is the end goal you mentioned which provides support to this discussion. No pug should "loose" to the point players leave in a PVE, optional loss sure -- but I've seen teams before that were so pathetic and disorganized that they couldn't even complete the CCe pug. I know people have seen this because it is a common complaint on ESD about pugs.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
many people play online have no concept of tactics and play like they would football - this is the fault of the rewards system/experience system .... playing to be king/leader in todays world that has no concept of survival ... a lot of games base magic/enhancemants to strengthen a avatar instead of co operation ... ask a soldier if he rushes into a situation or evaluates and decides the options... ww1 over the top is very much a last resort...officers are trained in tactics to co ordinate every situation using the equipment he has available and the intelligence gathered.. one of the most important positions on patrol is the point man for information on ambushes ,traps ,lie of the land etc ...none of this happens in games...famous example of strategy and tactics was the napleonic wars where the defensive rear slope tactic was used to protect and disguise your forces . e.g. waterloo a valley with a defensive ridge which was scouted weeks earlier and wellington refused battle at quatre bra to send his forces there
Obviously you don't know the definition of anecdote.
The person was giving a hypothetical situation -- made obvious by the fact that this plan is not something players in STO are surviving under. Therefor, it cannot be an anecdote, because it is a fictitious hypothetical event (ie, so you're saying that IF <-- being the key word) which is an hypothetical situation assumed under this ruleset. It was indeed a hypothetical assumption and you remain a troll.
The hypothetical is whether or not the person is a sociopath, not the anecdotal situation itself.
Of course, you wouldn't comprehend that because to you, whether or not the person is a sociopath is not up for debate. But since the paragraph started with an "if", you decided to transform the anecdote into an assumption to fit whatever is going on inside your head.
I'm not. I want a challenge, not a role, I want an enemy to use abilities so a team has to coordinate theirs to overcome the resulting obstacle. I don't fancy throwing out my multi-million EC and several hundred thousand diithium cruiser simply because it doesn't fill the role YOU want it to.
I'm in a similar boat to the other poster who suggested the science ship doing everything other than your defined role for it and losing out despite being a major contributor to the team, that's unfair, that's my point.
Now if your were suggesting content that isn't damage based or introducing abilities to NPCs that expand the encounters beyond dealing the most damage possible in the shortest period of time possible, I could get behind that.
The hypothetical is whether or not the person is a sociopath, not the anecdotal situation itself.
Of course, you wouldn't comprehend that because to you, whether or not the person is a sociopath is not up for debate. But since the paragraph started with an "if", you decided to transform the anecdote into an assumption to fit whatever is going on inside your head.
Allow me to educate you on your precise comment to a hypothetical system:
If my science captain in a science ship does more damage than my entire team combined, takes more damage than my entire team combined, and dies the least out of everyone on the entire team, BUT isn't throwing around sci boff debuffs or healing others, then you're telling me that I'm a sociopath?
...sure, why not.
See that little word you used? IF? This is the hallmark of a hypothetical statement.
if
if/Submit
conjunction
1.
introducing a conditional clause.
synonyms: on (the) condition that, provided (that), providing (that), presuming (that), supposing (that), assuming (that), as long as, given that, in the event that More
on the condition or supposition that; in the event that.
"if you have a complaint, write to the director"
(with past tense) introducing a hypothetical situation.
"if you had stayed, this would never have happened"
whenever; every time.
"if I go out, she gets nasty"
synonyms: whenever, every time More
2.
despite the possibility that; no matter whether.
"if it takes me seven years, I shall do it"
I love how google spells it out "assuming that..."
Yes, because the OP's parses in that thread were so bad, all the people that were saying the OP didn't know what he was doing WAS PARSING THE SAME THING! But wasn't it you who posted that thread about nerfing all tactical dps? Now where is that thread.. NVM I won't stoop to your level and troll, but thanks for trolling anyways, now tata.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
I'm not. I want a challenge, not a role, I want an enemy to use abilities so a team has to coordinate theirs to overcome the resulting obstacle. I don't fancy throwing out my multi-million EC and several hundred thousand diithium cruiser simply because it doesn't fill the role YOU want it to.
I'm in a similar boat to the other poster who suggested the science ship doing everything other than your defined role for it and losing out despite being a major contributor to the team, that's unfair, that's my point.
Now if your were suggesting content that isn't damage based or introducing abilities to NPCs that expand the encounters beyond dealing the most damage possible in the shortest period of time possible, I could get behind that.
And tell me how it worse than the already "universal dps role" that currently exists? If you don't like roles, you seem perfectly comfortable with the vanilla dps role you're only rewarded for.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
Allow me to educate you on your precise comment to a hypothetical system:
See that little word you used? IF? This is the hallmark of a hypothetical statement.
I love how google spells it out "assuming that..."
I said, and I quote, "The hypothetical is whether or not the person is a sociopath, not the anecdotal situation itself." Your selective bias is almost pathological.
I said, and I quote, "The hypothetical is whether or not the person is a sociopath, not the anecdotal situation itself." Your selective bias is almost pathological.
Again, you don't seem know the definition of anecdote. I'll save you the time:
an?ec?dote
ˈanikˌdōt/Submit
noun
1.
a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
"told anecdotes about his job"
You assumed sociopath, which made the entire statement hypothetical and based on that assumption which in reply, the only method of reply, is assumption. Not only that, but by prefixing the sentence with IF, you created the the further assumption (if a person is this (assumption), then he is this(subject question)?) which makes your entire question circular to begin with. When you replied "It is an assumption!" it is then it created a circular argument and you are trolling.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
So to answer your question, PWE already addressed this issue with the cruiser command auras.
That is debatable... but I lack experience with the Auras to accurately tell something
I addressed this already in a previous post. I don't like reposting as I have some expectation that folks will read the thread. However, to save you the click, I said that it was not a guaranteed way to ensure socialization, however it would encourage it MORE than the current system which rewards the opposite.
I guess you have a very different opinion on the state of the human mind than I have...
Let's just say, I see Humans the way Nature made them and that doesn't work well nowadays and will lead to your proposal failing as they will not be more social...
As you seem to see Humans as inherently good natured that only lack a proper "System" to manifest...
And you made a direly incorrect assumption. My ship of choice is the Chimera in PUGs which doesn't require heals. However, (if you would have read, and to save you the click) not everyone has access to this nor can they afford it, as with the four friends I explained that have lost interest in STO entirely, and in one of their words which all share the same sentiment, "The game is very antisocial and lacks team-play". Its a very bad thing when you have four avid Trekkies who are repelled from the game the moment they do a PVE in a VA 2500z ship.
Not that bad... people have different opinions... I know a few "avid Trekkies" who are repelled by the New Movies and vowed to never watch them again... all listing seemingly "logical" reasons.
Again, I see your concern, but you are making some leaps on assumptions that are pushing these concerns out of the realm of reality. For instance, if another science vessel also heals them, they would be competitive for a leaderboard slot, so doing someone else's job wouldn't be beneficial unless that type of player simply doesn't exist in the PVE (I know it happens and it sucks).
Sorry... but if even I can think of a scheme to abuse this system then there are thousands that can do better than that.
Sure even the Duo would have to compete with themselves... but so do the Drug Cartells and still they work together to abuse the System.
I know this seems a bit over the top but I only wanted to clarify that when even they can work together and "split the booty" mere players in a far less violent enviroment would work together VERY well....
You are asking me to get into precise numbers without having any understanding of the source code of the STO servers. This is not something that I can explain, this is for the development team to take a look at and deploy. What I have lodged are mere ideas and suggestions that are well founded in a great start to rooting out the problem of antisocial behaviors in PUGs.
No I do not... I want you to at least start to think of a way it could be done...
Again... HOW CAN it be measured?
Which System is workable here? Time Enemy spent in Debuff? You'll never amount to much as enemies die too fast! Number of Debuffs thrown? Just pull a lone Drone or Sphere out there and Chain-Debuff it for the most time, so you'll land in 1st Place...
I highly doubt, unless you can parse 30K+ sustained, that you could pull agro off of any VA cruiser in my fleet. And that's the problem. The game is so antisocial, no one really knows how to do their job in the first place, so they resort to doing what's "easy". I know this sounds terrible to say out loud, but it is the absolute truth. Cruisers that know what they're doing will NEVER let aggro dump to a tacscort. I would be more than willing to explain to you how this is done.
No the Problem is that enemies die faster than one of your precious cruisers can accumulate enough Aggro...
As they die far to fast to accumulate enough "debuff-effectivness".
The fact is that your debuffs contributed to the mob's "splat" effect is attributed damage and should put you right beside him in that case because obviously, he didn't put out "that" much damage on one mob and the fact that you got your debuff to stick which helped his damage, would push you be right beside him on the scoreboard.
There are far to many assumptions...
As I said, they often exploded, right as the Animation of my debuff is finished... there is not much that stuff could have done by then.
Especially not when you take into consideration that things like Energy Syphon take an awful lot of time to actually work or that Tykens Rift and Gravity Well are DoTs.
The ONLY Thing that is instant that would have contributed to this is my Scan... and even then I don't know how effective this ability is in reality.
I disagree with your decision to punish ship type choice. Just because someone pilots a cruiser doesn't mean that person wants to heal or be the punching bag and so on.
Give engineers and science ships a reason to heal -- make the encounter require heals to other players or penalize or reward captains who heal by providing a feed-back effect (maybe a +1% rep gain for being thoughtful or -1% rep gain for being a sociopath)
I think they already have a reason to heal. They're also doing a pretty good job healing themselves. In Star Trek, ships fix themselves anyway. If you want a heal slave to keep your poor ship alive, go find a friend who's willing to do that.
Or, ensure that EVERY captain and ship build has equal self-sufficiency tools available to them in PUGs. As it stands, and even as many guides state, tactical officers in escorts rely heavily on their team for survivability. Without this, they can't do their job: dps.
I think there's enough self-sufficiency in the class and ships. The only time I die when I pilot an escort is when I'm not moving. 4 other ships healing the lone escort that's standing still and unloading cannons is a waste of time. The encounter ends faster when 5 ships unload their cannons/beams/torpedos/mines.
Give players a voting system in PUGs to allow the group to kick out players who would rather solo the content than play a part of a team opening the slot for another player. When a vote happens, players should be required to provide a required reason: a) AFK b) Under-Geared/Skilled for Elite (for tactical escorts that aren't dpsing), or c) Not providing support as a support vessel/class.
Agree with a) only. If you join a public queue, you're kinda expected to suck it up if b) happens. There is no support role at the moment in STO since damage dealing is king so c) is meaning-less. Besides, it's nice to have a quick queue for STF since no specific support role is needed. STF starts as soon as enough players are available.
In the interest of making things interesting and perhaps add a bit of challenge, STF should have more than 1 optional to aim for.
Basic completion is straight-forward.
Extra marks for optional number 1 which is of moderate difficulty.
More extra marks and bonus loot for optional number 2 which is of hard difficulty requiring teamwork and coordination.
At the moment, there is only one role rewarded, DPS. Anything would be refreshing to that. But for clarity, this system will give the player a LOT more flexibility than what is currently there as long as that role benefits the group and not just themselves.
It is the end goal you mentioned which provides support to this discussion. No pug should "loose" to the point players leave in a PVE, optional loss sure -- but I've seen teams before that were so pathetic and disorganized that they couldn't even complete the CCe pug. I know people have seen this because it is a common complaint on ESD about pugs.
That's right. My ship has weapons and they need to fire on the enemy. That's their role and that's the final goal: we kill the bad guys and we ride toward the unsetting sun(s).
If I wanted to do something else than to make things go boom with my phasers, I would play LotRO, make a hobbit farmer and grow veggies.
But I tend to agree with other posters that it is the coordinated efforts and strategies that we should focus on, not predefined roles. Hell take the the sector borg alerts for example. What drive me nuts is people not attacking the same facing of Unimatrix. THAT is plain silly. That shows lack of coordination. No matter what ship you have.
As for loot drops, yep it needs rework but I do not think it should be based on specific roles.
Last regular Conduit pug I joined yesterday, I barely had time to power up my phasers and it was done. I'm guessing that some high-end players are sick of pugging Elites so they drop in a regular, destroy everything at warp 9.9 and get the top loot. That's not anti-social, that plain cheap lol.
Cheers
"Starship captains are like children. They want everything right now and they want it their way. The secret is to give them what they need, not what they want."
- Scotty, to La Forge
Ya know, theres a couple suggestions the OP makes that i really like, like having damage posted.. I dont care about leader boards, i'm not competing, at least not against people ( the clock yes, people no ).
Now, at least once each day i play, i run into an estf where i get my butt blown away because others arent doing their job or they really TRIBBLE off the gate or tac cube and I take the aggro for it.. its no big deal.. Jesus but i wonder how many times I got someone else killed when i was still learning.. I dont see anything wrong with the way that it is right now. Maybe i dont like the need greed thing as hey i rarely ever get anything from it and i'm certainly doing my share of destruction in there, but its ok.. so what?? Bottom line for me is that outside of a few shenanigans pulled by a rather well known clan ( known for its shenanigans ) the only truly sociopathic behavior i've seen has been on these forums.
[in reply to my previous post] Yes, because the OP's parses in that thread were so bad, all the people that were saying the OP didn't know what he was doing WAS PARSING THE SAME THING! But wasn't it you who posted that thread about nerfing all tactical dps? Now where is that thread.. NVM I won't stoop to your level and troll, but thanks for trolling anyways, now tata.
I suspect you're either a) suffering from rage-induced mental deficiency, or b) suffering from mental deficiency unrelated to rage/anger or c) a successful* troll.
Again, you don't seem know the definition of anecdote. I'll save you the time:
an?ec?dote
ˈanikˌdōt/Submit
noun
1.
a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
"told anecdotes about his job"
You assumed sociopath, which made the entire statement hypothetical and based on that assumption which in reply, the only method of reply, is assumption. Not only that, but by prefixing the sentence with IF, you created the the further assumption (if a person is this (assumption), then he is this(subject question)?) which makes your entire question circular to begin with. When you replied "It is an assumption!" it is then it created a circular argument and you are trolling.
I like how you color coded it.
Here, let me do the same:
Ifmy science captain in a science ship does more damage than my entire team combined, takes more damage than my entire team combined, and dies the least out of everyone on the entire team, BUT isn't throwing around sci boff debuffs or healing others,then you're telling me that I'm a sociopath?
Can you guess which of the color coded section is the anecdote?
And tell me how it worse than the already "universal dps role" that currently exists? If you don't like roles, you seem perfectly comfortable with the vanilla dps role you're only rewarded for.
Please tell me where in the post you quoted I stated I was happy with things.
But when faced with what we have and the enforced roles you want to inflict upon us, I have to choose the lesser of two evils, which is the one that gives me a choice as to what I want to do on a given day, sometimes I fly a jack-of-all-trades cruiser and again under your system i would be penalised for this.
Comments
If my science captain in a science ship does more damage than my entire team combined, takes more damage than my entire team combined, and dies the least out of everyone on the entire team, BUT isn't throwing around sci boff debuffs or healing others, then you're telling me that I'm a sociopath?
...sure, why not.
More along the lines of not paying attention of anything but your target, and not looking out for others in the group, in many cases. However, this is not true in all instances.
I don't agree with any kind of system to punish such behavior, or general overhaul of the current system, considering that lack of coordination for legit reasons is often the problem.
Your answer has curiously nothing to do with what has been presented...
Simply ignoring the fact that Threat Control seems to not work (as per the Post you answered to) is not very social.
And yet you are still ignoring anything I said regarding socialisation...
As per now... I can only assume you don't care about "the Social Enviroment" and you just want a way that forces people to heal and buff you...
I answered that in my first post here but I spare you the additional mouseclick:
Fly into the enemy, get damaged, heal, repeat... No need to care about anything but yourself and still be #1!
If you want to restrict self heals... you will only create Duos of these people... both alternating in the above setup with the other one healing accordingly.
And again you are ignoring parts like how do you expect Science to be measured correctly?
Besides the fact that any moderately competent Tacscort will kill the enemy faster than a Cruiser can work up "aggro" (if it would work correctly) or any Science can put out Debuffs...
It is not a strange and rare occurence that I am the first to arrive at the enemy, put my debuffs out only to see the enemy exploding right away because a Tac flew by...
Wasting my Debuffs, putting me on Cooldown and then some Tac starts complaining why I can't do sh*t and "play for the team".
You said it. Obviously, if that were the case, you also wouldn't be the only sociopath in the group either. But no, to be clear, in such a case as that, you would likely win it by healing yourself, however someone in the team that was healing YOU while you were taking the entire time, being a cruiser or science officer should knock you off the leader-boards for playing as a team and not a one-man genitalia measuring contest.
You know what they say about assumptions.
Sorry but my definition of a multiplayer game includes a requirement for players to coordinate efforts if only in endgame group content, else they WILL fail missions. But as you're obviously the resident expert on things...
Sorry, I didn't see that as a question, I saw it as a false assessment and ignored it and I mean that in a non-insulting way as I tried to avoid the conflict entirely. The fact is, with the new cruiser commands, retaining proper agro from the best dps in the game is manageable, very much so in fact, while giving you more of a survivability buff by the more people you have under the aura. In this case, threat training isn't even necessary as I've seen mobs peel off of me in fleet events for a mere heal thrown to me.
So to answer your question, PWE already addressed this issue with the cruiser command auras.
I addressed this already in a previous post. I don't like reposting as I have some expectation that folks will read the thread. However, to save you the click, I said that it was not a guaranteed way to ensure socialization, however it would encourage it MORE than the current system which rewards the opposite.
And you made a direly incorrect assumption. My ship of choice is the Chimera in PUGs which doesn't require heals. However, (if you would have read, and to save you the click) not everyone has access to this nor can they afford it, as with the four friends I explained that have lost interest in STO entirely, and in one of their words which all share the same sentiment, "The game is very antisocial and lacks team-play". Its a very bad thing when you have four avid Trekkies who are repelled from the game the moment they do a PVE in a VA 2500z ship.
Again, I see your concern, but you are making some leaps on assumptions that are pushing these concerns out of the realm of reality. For instance, if another science vessel also heals them, they would be competitive for a leaderboard slot, so doing someone else's job wouldn't be beneficial unless that type of player simply doesn't exist in the PVE (I know it happens and it sucks).
You are asking me to get into precise numbers without having any understanding of the source code of the STO servers. This is not something that I can explain, this is for the development team to take a look at and deploy. What I have lodged are mere ideas and suggestions that are well founded in a great start to rooting out the problem of antisocial behaviors in PUGs.
I highly doubt, unless you can parse 30K+ sustained, that you could pull agro off of any VA cruiser in my fleet. And that's the problem. The game is so antisocial, no one really knows how to do their job in the first place, so they resort to doing what's "easy". I know this sounds terrible to say out loud, but it is the absolute truth. Cruisers that know what they're doing will NEVER let aggro dump to a tacscort. I would be more than willing to explain to you how this is done.
The fact is that your debuffs contributed to the mob's "splat" effect is attributed damage and should put you right beside him in that case because obviously, he didn't put out "that" much damage on one mob and the fact that you got your debuff to stick which helped his damage, would push you be right beside him on the scoreboard.
I'll be the first to admit, a LOT of consideration MUST go into balance for this system to work, it also MUST be flexible in accommodating many team-oriented play-styles. You won't hear me speak against this.
I was replying to an assumption, thanks for circularizing it, troll.
That's just not true. Many MMO's out there have a single-player (solo) play-aspect. EverQuest2, WOW, DDO, Rift, Neverwinter, and many more. Sure, to get the BETTER REWARDS you must PLAY AS A TEAM, which is PRECISELY the point I'm making. How dare you make my point for me :P
I do think that your conjecture on the reason why you don't see those messages asking for help isn't right. I don't think it's sociopathic behaviour - rather, it could be being unable to recognise that the player him/herself needs advice/help, or a perception that he/she is correct in his/her actions (as in, being mistaken that this is the right way to do things), and thus not needing to ask for advice.
Also, I find that the deaths of teammates tend to be unavoidable. As in, unless one had a dedicated healer build, your available heals are unable to keep the person from dying. Also, most of the time, the basic team-castable heals available are HoTs - which means that by the time a person appears to be in trouble, the heals others send will not be sufficient to keep him up. This is especially true if the person is currently set to do damage - any heals he can send are often Aux-dependent (AtS, HE and TSS) and thus weak - too weak to save someone who is on the ropes. This also ignores the possibility that the Tacscort is purposefully dropping hull in order to bring up GDF. I have been chewed out on occasion by an escort trying to do this after sending over a heal.
In other words, what I am trying to say is that sending heals over to a Tacscort tends to make little difference. Thus, I suggest something you may want to consider - how many times were your deaths due to something unavoidable e.g. a sudden crit?
Additional biases may include the simple unawareness that a type of heal can be sent to teammates in the first place. There is also the prevalence of a certain type of build on cruisers - AtB - which reduces healing ability, especially team healing, in exchange for far more offensive power.
There is also the possibility that the mission is such that the player has previously found that more damage is more effective at completing the mission than carrying extra heals. After all, these missions can be completed without teamheals, but they are very difficult to complete without damage. The PUG queue itself works with this - if a player does not know who his teammates will be, it is better to bring an additional damage dealer - which is always useful - as opposed to an extra healer, which could lead to insufficient damage.
Another interesting thing is your inclusion of Crystalline Catastrophe in your study. That mission already takes into account amount of healing done in awarding rewards at the end - and it does not appear to have had much of an effect.
Oh, and I am against any vote-to-kick option. Such an option would be far too easy to abuse.
No, you were replying to an anecdote.
So let me get this straight....
If I make an anecdote, then someone else adds an assumption, then I point that out, not only does my anecdote transform into an assumption, but I am also a troll.
....sure, why not.
Right, I understand the bias in the sample group. However, not everyone in a fleet will be immune from being compelled to pug, and in the larger fleets that have 24/7 members online are generally so large, the same issue plagues their fleet events (this is true of the 3 fleets I was in before I created this one).
I will agree entirely about votekick, but there are measures PWE can take to minimize this:
1) Make it so the refill for the kicked player is a random player and not a friend
2) Make it so the entire team has to vote for the kick with the exception of the player being kicked
3) Make it so players can be reported and banned for abusing the system.
4) Automatically forfeit the optional
5) Disallow votekicks after the optional is won or lost.
It is true that everyone has shields and hull resistance and can take some beating as opposed to a Rogue or a Mage in a typical RPG
In essence, when we face an enemy, 3 choices are open to us.
1- We all go weapons high to put the dog down asap
2- Some (cruisers) can try to get love from the enemy so others can beat him down quickly
3- Some can try to support others with heals, hinder the enemy so it can easily be killed, etc.
The goal is to win the battle. That's it.
In the end, whatever ship you have, you can fill whatever role you wish to, and that is great! That is why STO is different. We're not stuck in a predefined role.
True, some ships are better than others at a particular role but it is the player that make it so.
As for anti-social behaviors, it is a bigger, deeper problem in this century. People prefer to text than to make a phone call and talk. This says it all...
Cheers
- Scotty, to La Forge
Obviously you don't know the definition of anecdote.
The person was giving a hypothetical situation -- made obvious by the fact that this plan is not something players in STO are surviving under. Therefor, it cannot be an anecdote, because it is a fictitious hypothetical event (ie, so you're saying that IF <-- being the key word) which is an hypothetical situation assumed under this ruleset. It was indeed a hypothetical assumption and you remain a troll.
At the moment, there is only one role rewarded, DPS. Anything would be refreshing to that. But for clarity, this system will give the player a LOT more flexibility than what is currently there as long as that role benefits the group and not just themselves.
It is the end goal you mentioned which provides support to this discussion. No pug should "loose" to the point players leave in a PVE, optional loss sure -- but I've seen teams before that were so pathetic and disorganized that they couldn't even complete the CCe pug. I know people have seen this because it is a common complaint on ESD about pugs.
The hypothetical is whether or not the person is a sociopath, not the anecdotal situation itself.
Of course, you wouldn't comprehend that because to you, whether or not the person is a sociopath is not up for debate. But since the paragraph started with an "if", you decided to transform the anecdote into an assumption to fit whatever is going on inside your head.
I'm not. I want a challenge, not a role, I want an enemy to use abilities so a team has to coordinate theirs to overcome the resulting obstacle. I don't fancy throwing out my multi-million EC and several hundred thousand diithium cruiser simply because it doesn't fill the role YOU want it to.
I'm in a similar boat to the other poster who suggested the science ship doing everything other than your defined role for it and losing out despite being a major contributor to the team, that's unfair, that's my point.
Now if your were suggesting content that isn't damage based or introducing abilities to NPCs that expand the encounters beyond dealing the most damage possible in the shortest period of time possible, I could get behind that.
Allow me to educate you on your precise comment to a hypothetical system:
See that little word you used? IF? This is the hallmark of a hypothetical statement.
I love how google spells it out "assuming that..."
Yes, because the OP's parses in that thread were so bad, all the people that were saying the OP didn't know what he was doing WAS PARSING THE SAME THING! But wasn't it you who posted that thread about nerfing all tactical dps? Now where is that thread.. NVM I won't stoop to your level and troll, but thanks for trolling anyways, now tata.
And tell me how it worse than the already "universal dps role" that currently exists? If you don't like roles, you seem perfectly comfortable with the vanilla dps role you're only rewarded for.
I said, and I quote, "The hypothetical is whether or not the person is a sociopath, not the anecdotal situation itself." Your selective bias is almost pathological.
It's gaming. Sociopaths are like having mosquitoes in a swamp. Put on some Deep Woods Off and don't PUG.
Again, you don't seem know the definition of anecdote. I'll save you the time:
You assumed sociopath, which made the entire statement hypothetical and based on that assumption which in reply, the only method of reply, is assumption. Not only that, but by prefixing the sentence with IF, you created the the further assumption (if a person is this (assumption), then he is this(subject question)?) which makes your entire question circular to begin with. When you replied "It is an assumption!" it is then it created a circular argument and you are trolling.
That is debatable... but I lack experience with the Auras to accurately tell something
I guess you have a very different opinion on the state of the human mind than I have...
Let's just say, I see Humans the way Nature made them and that doesn't work well nowadays and will lead to your proposal failing as they will not be more social...
As you seem to see Humans as inherently good natured that only lack a proper "System" to manifest...
Not that bad... people have different opinions... I know a few "avid Trekkies" who are repelled by the New Movies and vowed to never watch them again... all listing seemingly "logical" reasons.
Sorry... but if even I can think of a scheme to abuse this system then there are thousands that can do better than that.
Sure even the Duo would have to compete with themselves... but so do the Drug Cartells and still they work together to abuse the System.
I know this seems a bit over the top but I only wanted to clarify that when even they can work together and "split the booty" mere players in a far less violent enviroment would work together VERY well....
No I do not... I want you to at least start to think of a way it could be done...
Again... HOW CAN it be measured?
Which System is workable here? Time Enemy spent in Debuff? You'll never amount to much as enemies die too fast! Number of Debuffs thrown? Just pull a lone Drone or Sphere out there and Chain-Debuff it for the most time, so you'll land in 1st Place...
No the Problem is that enemies die faster than one of your precious cruisers can accumulate enough Aggro...
As they die far to fast to accumulate enough "debuff-effectivness".
There are far to many assumptions...
As I said, they often exploded, right as the Animation of my debuff is finished... there is not much that stuff could have done by then.
Especially not when you take into consideration that things like Energy Syphon take an awful lot of time to actually work or that Tykens Rift and Gravity Well are DoTs.
The ONLY Thing that is instant that would have contributed to this is my Scan... and even then I don't know how effective this ability is in reality.
I disagree with your decision to punish ship type choice. Just because someone pilots a cruiser doesn't mean that person wants to heal or be the punching bag and so on.
I think they already have a reason to heal. They're also doing a pretty good job healing themselves. In Star Trek, ships fix themselves anyway. If you want a heal slave to keep your poor ship alive, go find a friend who's willing to do that.
I think there's enough self-sufficiency in the class and ships. The only time I die when I pilot an escort is when I'm not moving. 4 other ships healing the lone escort that's standing still and unloading cannons is a waste of time. The encounter ends faster when 5 ships unload their cannons/beams/torpedos/mines.
Agree with a) only. If you join a public queue, you're kinda expected to suck it up if b) happens. There is no support role at the moment in STO since damage dealing is king so c) is meaning-less. Besides, it's nice to have a quick queue for STF since no specific support role is needed. STF starts as soon as enough players are available.
In the interest of making things interesting and perhaps add a bit of challenge, STF should have more than 1 optional to aim for.
Basic completion is straight-forward.
Extra marks for optional number 1 which is of moderate difficulty.
More extra marks and bonus loot for optional number 2 which is of hard difficulty requiring teamwork and coordination.
That's right. My ship has weapons and they need to fire on the enemy. That's their role and that's the final goal: we kill the bad guys and we ride toward the unsetting sun(s).
If I wanted to do something else than to make things go boom with my phasers, I would play LotRO, make a hobbit farmer and grow veggies.
But I tend to agree with other posters that it is the coordinated efforts and strategies that we should focus on, not predefined roles. Hell take the the sector borg alerts for example. What drive me nuts is people not attacking the same facing of Unimatrix. THAT is plain silly. That shows lack of coordination. No matter what ship you have.
As for loot drops, yep it needs rework but I do not think it should be based on specific roles.
Last regular Conduit pug I joined yesterday, I barely had time to power up my phasers and it was done. I'm guessing that some high-end players are sick of pugging Elites so they drop in a regular, destroy everything at warp 9.9 and get the top loot. That's not anti-social, that plain cheap lol.
Cheers
- Scotty, to La Forge
Now, at least once each day i play, i run into an estf where i get my butt blown away because others arent doing their job or they really TRIBBLE off the gate or tac cube and I take the aggro for it.. its no big deal.. Jesus but i wonder how many times I got someone else killed when i was still learning.. I dont see anything wrong with the way that it is right now. Maybe i dont like the need greed thing as hey i rarely ever get anything from it and i'm certainly doing my share of destruction in there, but its ok.. so what?? Bottom line for me is that outside of a few shenanigans pulled by a rather well known clan ( known for its shenanigans ) the only truly sociopathic behavior i've seen has been on these forums.
I suspect you're either a) suffering from rage-induced mental deficiency, or b) suffering from mental deficiency unrelated to rage/anger or c) a successful* troll.
* because you got replies
I like how you color coded it.
Here, let me do the same:
If my science captain in a science ship does more damage than my entire team combined, takes more damage than my entire team combined, and dies the least out of everyone on the entire team, BUT isn't throwing around sci boff debuffs or healing others, then you're telling me that I'm a sociopath?
Can you guess which of the color coded section is the anecdote?
Please tell me where in the post you quoted I stated I was happy with things.
But when faced with what we have and the enforced roles you want to inflict upon us, I have to choose the lesser of two evils, which is the one that gives me a choice as to what I want to do on a given day, sometimes I fly a jack-of-all-trades cruiser and again under your system i would be penalised for this.