You really don't know what canon is, do you? :rolleyes:
The B'rel has only been referred to by name on-screen one time in all of Star Trek.
And that happened to be a re-use of the K'vort footage.
Thus the B'rel is firmly established as a retired ship class being the same size of the K'vort.
Backstage and third-party sources are NOT canon.
Question is do you? :rolleyes:
the TV series always a made vague comments and reuse the same footage alot of times, as i mention b4 because of budget concerns of the time... not to mention they did not use 3D models on the TNG series at that time, they used Studio models which take up time and money to make new scenes. and through out the ST TV seires they consistantly shows the BoP from the range of 100-150-300-600+ meters but they were not mention by size by the main characters and most of the time they called them by Bird of Preys.
The so called Backstage and third-party sources u mention of the Star Trek Ecyclopedia and Tech Manuals were made by the Prodution staff of the Star Trek TV francise series and offically reconized by Paramount to be ''Offical'' therefor making it ''Canon''
Let's look at the term ''Canon''...
- ''all the writings of an author that are accepted as genuine.''
- ''In fiction, canon is the conceptual material accepted as "official" in a fictional universe's fan base.''
- ''Another word for official. Used quite often in fan fiction to differentiate between the official storyline in which the fan fiction is based on.''
Despite what was seen on the TV series, anything that Paramount and it's ST Production staff put on their ''Offical'' tech books are ''Canon''
In the stated to be ''Uncommon'' for B'rels to be in scrap yards in ''Rascal'', the D-12 class another same design BoP was the only time a entire BoP class which was mention by Worf as ''Retired'' in ST: Generations because of ''defective plasma coils'', and the K'vort was mentioned 2 times in the TV series, once being mention as a ''Battle Cruiser''.
If the B'rel were retired, then why did STO and most other ST video games used the B'rel by named instead of the ''K'vort'' for the smaller BoP types in Star Trek ''Armada'', ''Dominion Wars'', ''Starfleet Command'' and ''Bridge Commander'' series, etc. and most of these them were based either in the late 24th century or during/post Dominion war era games.
Enough with the canon vs non canon debate. It appeared on tng and was called k'vort class bc. That is 100 times more authentic then the trash being peddled by Cryptic. If you don't want it then don't buy it. Let the rest of us enjoy it.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
On top of that, Star Trek Games are not canon either, nor have any obligation of strict adherence to canon.
Now while I personally love and embrace the expansion of the Star Trek universe through licensed works like tech manuals and what not, it still does not change the fact that they aren't canon.
There's just something VERY wrong with a BOP that's almost 3 times larger than a K'Tinga. And sorry to disappoint you but every ST game does NOT have a K'Vort (D15) in it as the ship is a new creation ala TNG (yesterdays Enterprise IIRC), and I haven't played many post TNG based games so I've never heard of this ship till SFC3 and later.
See my post. Btw ,if you dont want it... thats fine.. but quite a few of us do... Every other ST game has a K'Vort or other named variant in them.. why not this one?
Also, sorry to disappoint you.... cuz Im older too but, nothing TNG has been considered "new creation" for quite some time... 30 years ago is quite a long time ago man... I know it seems like just yesterday but, TNG is def. not new.
On top of that, Star Trek Games are not canon either, nor have any obligation of strict adherence to canon.
Now while I personally love and embrace the expansion of the Star Trek universe through licensed works like tech manuals and what not, it still does not change the fact that they aren't canon.
Sorry to break it to you, but the person who wrote on that memory alpha article like u also don't know what the true defenition what ''Canon'' is, nor does he work on the dictionary. look up my previous post for what ''Canon'' is.
Again, like i said b4 and which u avoid and failed to mention alot of times, can u explain the different sizes of the BoP class from 100-150-300-600+ meters on the TV series. and again as i said b4 the TV Series barely and did not mention the sizes of these ships. so the prodution team of the Star Trek TV Franchises (NOT Fans.. the people who created the ST universe) made out these ST encyclpedias to explain the weapons and stats of the ships of their shows and these were consider to be ''Offical'' by Paramount, there were also other comic book, novels and other works that came out about the ST expanded universe... these were NOT consider ''Offical'' by Paramount.
Never said that the ST Games were Canon, i only said they used the B'rel by named only to describe their smaller BoP class in their games, which means they got their names for the ships from offical star trek sources from Paramount/CBS. also CBS is overlooking STO very closely for an example they wanted the ''Consitution'' class by name and ship NOT to be used as a playable Teir 5 ship, which indicates they got people who knows the Star Trek ships classes by names and they're the ones who no doubt ask Cryptic to use the B'rel name on one of the BoP classes and NOT the K'vort which u claim to be the secessor of the B'rel.
The only people that can say what ''Canon'' truly is, is the people who invented the fan based universes or the people who hold the license to it. for an example George Lucas and his production made works that includes few certain books which George Lucas considers ''Canon'', anything else like the expanded universe, comics books most video games are not consider canon. JMS who made the Babylon 5 universe in who got people making B5 tech manuals and certain Novels which he considers ''Canon'' and again there are also other works out these which he considers not canon. and since Gene Rod is dead and can't say what is canon and what is not, it falls down to the people who own the ST rights which is Paramount/CBS.
I'm fully aware of the "word definition"
But not everything is literal down to the very definition of the words.
Its the general stance and consensus of the Star Trek community as a whole, and the policy of Memory Alpha that only content from the TV series and Movies are considered canon.
Which is why Memory-Beta exists, that deals in licensed Star Trek Works.
Fact of the matter is, vast majority of BoP's seen on screen have simply just been referred to as a "Bird of Prey", which encompasses a type of ship, not a particular class.
Now the B'rel being indentified as a small class of Bird of Prey is an expansion by licensed works.
And theres nothing strange about information being taken from licensed work to be used in the games which also are licensed works.
In fact its only logical to use licensed works to fill in the information gaps and discrepencies.
But it still does not actually make it canon.
See my post. Btw ,if you dont want it... thats fine.. but quite a few of us do... Every other ST game has a K'Vort or other named variant in them.. why not this one?
Also, sorry to disappoint you.... cuz Im older too but, nothing TNG has been considered "new creation" for quite some time... 30 years ago is quite a long time ago man... I know it seems like just yesterday but, TNG is def. not new.
I'll have to look for a K'vort in Klingon academy but I don't remember seeing one, and Starfleet command 2 didn't have one either. I didn't play alot of unmodded Bridge Commander, but I would say the K'vort was absent in that game unless you count player created mods.
Maybe you're saying these games aren't really Star Trek games because they didn't have a K'vort in them ?
if the new C-store ship that's been put off for a year stats like the Avenger, a K'Vort skin seems to me to be a pretty good choice-as long as they keep the BC and swap a couple of fixed stations for universals at the commander/LTC end.
hell, it wouldn't NEED a gimmick console then...
This upcoming Negh'var will probably have the same stats as the Avenger. Coincidentally, the Avenger has the same turn rate as the standard and even Fleet Negh'Var.
I dunno. If it can powerslide like a demon rather than flying like it's on rails, that's a point in its favor, too. It's much smoother to keep a ship that can slide both moving and on target than one that flies like it's on rails. You can't properly strafe a target if your ship is on rails. Without the inertia, you're not even flying a spaceship anymore.
Hoping tis true, quite possibly they had the stats done with a half created skin but shelved the original stats, which when compared to the Avenger, may have been poor and somebody at Cryptic realized it would not sell unless made more competitive.
For consideration K'vort battlecruiser hybid 3pk: 5000zen bundle or 2500zen each
Model Size for all is comparable to the Mogai
T5 Tactical variant - XXXX Uni TRIBBLE XX XX X Uni
500 Crew
3 Devices
13 Turn
50 Inertia
1.0 Shield mod
32k Hull
.22 Impulse mod
5 fore/3 aft configuration Can use dual Cannons XX TRIBBLE XXXXX
Standard KDF Cloak
+10 weapons/Engines Bonus power
Uses Standard B'rel skin, B'Roth skin varient is unlocked if you own the T1 Refit Special item - Heavy Disruptor Dual beam bank:
90' targeting arc
to target: 328.2 Disruptor base Damage (2/3 firing cycle)
to self: -12 Weapon Power when firing other weapons
to target: 2.5 Chance: 10% Shield Damage Resistance Debuff for 15 secs
+60% Critical Severity
T5 Science variant - XXXX Uni TRIBBLE XX XX X Uni
500 Crew
3 Devices
11 Turn
50 Inertia
1.1 Shield mod
34k Hull
.19 Impulse mod
5 fore/3 aft configuration Can use dual Cannons XX XXXXX TRIBBLE
Standard KDF Cloak
+10 Shields/Auxillary Bonus power, Sensor Analysis
Uses Qul'Dun skin, Qaw'Dun skin varient is unlocked if you own the T2 Refit Special item - Electronic Warfare Systems universal console - passive
+6% critical chance
+15.3 Starship Particle Generator
+15.3 Starship Graviton Generators
+15.3 Starship Subspace Decompiler
Adds 7.5% of your Weapon power to your Auxillary power as bonus power
T5 Engineer variant - XXXX Uni TRIBBLE XX XX X Uni
500 Crew
3 Devices
10 Turn
50 Inertia
1.15 Shield mod
36k Hull
.18 Impulse mod
5 fore/3 aft configuration Can use dual Cannons XXXX XX XXXX
Standard KDF Cloak
+10 weapons/Shields Bonus power
Uses Ki'Tang skin, Ch'Tang skin varient is unlocked if you own the T4 Refit Special Item - Enhanced Systems Booster universal console - passive
+45.8% Power Transfer Rate
+22.9% Flight Turn Rate
+15.3 Starship Structural Integrity
+15.3 Starship Shield System
+15.3 Starship Power Insulators
Can mix-match pieces to customize in the ship tailor
Can use standard Battlecruiser Comm Arrays 2pc Set Passive bonus - Autonomous Holographic repair teams are deployed for 20 secs if hull goes below 50% repairing Hull and Shields (cannot proc more than once per 60secs) 3pc Set Passive bonus - Upgrades standard cloak to BattleCloak and grants a 10% increase to de-cloak damage bonus
Thoughts - Inspiration was drawn from the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle-cruiser, Breen Chell Gret Warship, and Fleet Mogai to blend a maneuverable battle-cruiser with heavy firepower while hearkening back to the original raider design with the Universal commander and ensign stations to allow some seating variations. Skin variants available also allow players who have previously purchased the lower tier refits to get some additional use and encourage new players to purchase them to unlock additional customization options.
The ultimate question for cryptic is if they made it would the kdf players buy it?
For consideration K'vort battlecruiser hybid 3pk: 5000zen bundle or 2500zen each
Model Size for all is comparable to the Mogai
T5 Tactical variant - XXXX Uni TRIBBLE XX XX X Uni
500 Crew
3 Devices
13 Turn
50 Inertia
1.0 Shield mod
32k Hull
.22 Impulse mod
5 fore/3 aft configuration Can use dual Cannons XX TRIBBLE XXXXX
Standard KDF Cloak
+10 weapons/Engines Bonus power
Uses Standard B'rel skin, B'Roth skin varient is unlocked if you own the T1 Refit Special item - Heavy Disruptor Dual beam bank:
90' targeting arc
to target: 328.2 Disruptor base Damage (2/3 firing cycle)
to self: -12 Weapon Power when firing other weapons
to target: 2.5 Chance: 10% Shield Damage Resistance Debuff for 15 secs
+60% Critical Severity
T5 Science variant - XXXX Uni TRIBBLE XX XX X Uni
500 Crew
3 Devices
11 Turn
50 Inertia
1.1 Shield mod
34k Hull
.19 Impulse mod
5 fore/3 aft configuration Can use dual Cannons XX XXXXX TRIBBLE
Standard KDF Cloak
+10 Shields/Auxillary Bonus power, Sensor Analysis
Uses Qul'Dun skin, Qaw'Dun skin varient is unlocked if you own the T2 Refit Special item - Electronic Warfare Systems universal console - passive
+6% critical chance
+15.3 Starship Particle Generator
+15.3 Starship Graviton Generators
+15.3 Starship Subspace Decompiler
Adds 7.5% of your Weapon power to your Auxillary power as bonus power
T5 Engineer variant - XXXX Uni TRIBBLE XX XX X Uni
500 Crew
3 Devices
10 Turn
50 Inertia
1.15 Shield mod
36k Hull
.18 Impulse mod
5 fore/3 aft configuration Can use dual Cannons XXXX XX XXXX
Standard KDF Cloak
+10 weapons/Shields Bonus power
Uses Ki'Tang skin, Ch'Tang skin varient is unlocked if you own the T4 Refit Special Item - Enhanced Systems Booster universal console - passive
+45.8% Power Transfer Rate
+22.9% Flight Turn Rate
+15.3 Starship Structural Integrity
+15.3 Starship Shield System
+15.3 Starship Power Insulators
Can mix-match pieces to customize in the ship tailor
Can use standard Battlecruiser Comm Arrays 2pc Set Passive bonus - Autonomous Holographic repair teams are deployed for 20 secs if hull goes below 50% repairing Hull and Shields (cannot proc more than once per 60secs) 3pc Set Passive bonus - Upgrades standard cloak to BattleCloak and grants a 10% increase to de-cloak damage bonus
Thoughts - Inspiration was drawn from the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle-cruiser, Breen Chell Gret Warship, and Fleet Mogai to blend a maneuverable battle-cruiser with heavy firepower while hearkening back to the original raider design with the Universal commander and ensign stations to allow some seating variations. Skin variants available also allow players who have previously purchased the lower tier refits to get some additional use and encourage new players to purchase them to unlock additional customization options.
The ultimate question for cryptic is if they made it would the kdf players buy it?
Looking at those special items they are overpowered.
Bird of Prey are know for using Cannons instead of Beams. More realistic weapon be something like a Wide Angle Dual Disruptor Cannon [Arc] [Acc] [CrtH] and its damage scales with level. Or a Photon Torpedo like that instead of Dual Disruptor Cannon.
Science item could be something like Towing Tactor Beam. Does very small amount of Kinetic Damage but reduces targets Flight Speed,Turn rate and Engine Power by 50%
Engineering item could be something that improves the cloak. Like makes ship able to cloak in combat and reduces the Cloaks cooldown as well shields remain up until the ship is fully cloaked and +15 to Stealth.
Looking at those special items they are overpowered.
Bird of Prey are know for using Cannons instead of Beams. More realistic weapon be something like a Wide Angle Dual Disruptor Cannon [Arc] [Acc] [CrtH] and its damage scales with level. Or a Photon Torpedo like that instead of Dual Disruptor Cannon.
Science item could be something like Towing Tactor Beam. Does very small amount of Kinetic Damage but reduces targets Flight Speed,Turn rate and Engine Power by 50%
Engineering item could be something that improves the cloak. Like makes ship able to cloak in combat and reduces the Cloaks cooldown as well shields remain up until the ship is fully cloaked and +15 to Stealth.
hardly anyone uses dual cannons if dual heavy cannons are availible, same issue with torpedoes.
tractor beam is a boff power would you really buy ship to get a "tractor beam" console with a 3min CD?
the ship has a cloak unless kdf get romulan like boff traits I don't think people would buy it for a simple reduction.
The ship is in essence a light battle cruiser the size of the mogai destroyer not a bop raider. time to think outside the box, due to the power creep introduced with the romulan faction.
Ask yourself what would I want in a light battle cruiser if I could design it, and what would entice ppl to buy that ship over what they already have.
The K'vort strike a cord with kdf players as it has the styling of a bird of prey while not quite being one, personally I think that kdf players chose the faction since they could fly a bird of prey.
hardly anyone uses dual cannons if dual heavy cannons are availible, same issue with torpedoes.
tractor beam is a boff power would you really buy ship to get a "tractor beam" console with a 3min CD?
the ship has a cloak unless kdf get romulan like boff traits I don't think people would buy it for a simple reduction.
The ship is in essence a light battle cruiser the size of the mogai destroyer not a bop raider. time to think outside the box, due to the power creep introduced with the romulan faction.
Ask yourself what would I want in a light battle cruiser if I could design it, and what would entice ppl to buy that ship over what they already have.
The K'vort strike a cord with kdf players as it has the styling of a bird of prey while not quite being one, personally I think that kdf players chose the faction since they could fly a bird of prey.
If Dual Cannons had more firing arc more people would use them. I see a lot of people using torps in the game. Maybe in PvP are they used much less. When I think of Dual Cannons I do think of Bird of Prey but when thinking of Dual Heavy Cannons a Negh'Var so make the weapon more resemble that.
It would not be like a normal tractor beam. It would debuff someone and the debuff will apply even if someone is using Polarized Hull or Attack Pattern Omega.
The cloaking one would make reduce cloaking cooldown but also make it safer by keeping shields up until fully cloaked as well as making you harder to detect.
If Dual Cannons had more firing arc more people would use them. I see a lot of people using torps in the game. Maybe in PvP are they used much less. When I think of Dual Cannons I do think of Bird of Prey but when thinking of Dual Heavy Cannons a Negh'Var so make the weapon more resemble that.
It would not be like a normal tractor beam. It would debuff someone and the debuff will apply even if someone is using Polarized Hull or Attack Pattern Omega.
The cloaking one would make reduce cloaking cooldown but also make it safer by keeping shields up until fully cloaked as well as making you harder to detect.
I will agree to disagree . besides I very rarely pvp anymore.
Personally, I wouldn't drop another 5000 Zen for wide angle dual cannons, already have quad cannons. A wide angle photon time to target to slow versus common quantum torpedoes or a tractor beam taking up a console slot that I could slot say the Zero Point console that gives more benefits. The consoles I suggested were something that might get me to give up a console I would normally slot though for example:
eng have 2x Neutronium for resistance, a Tachyokinetic for turn and crit
sci have Assimilated console, Zero-Point, Isokinetic console
tac have 3x Disruptor induction coils
3x Disruptor DHC, Quantum torpedo or DBB
2x Disruptor turrets
that is the typical setup on my T5 B'rel which turn in the 60+turn range.
*snip*
Not that I'm saying you're wrong, I think you're probably right-but then, that begs the question of why they had to shelve it to move artists around, since we HAVE a Negh'var skin already in stock and changing a few minor details isn't exactly a big challenge for a skilled 3D game artist.
The excuse given, if you recall, was that they had the stats finalized, but the artwork was manpower intensive and they needed the artists for the Voth.
That would ordinarily indicate an entirely new ship, or at least entirely new skin-which they wouldn't need if they were just doing a recycle of the Negh'var. *snip*
If they're making an entirely new skin while at the same time updating the existing skin, sort of like what the Regent did for the Sovereign, I can totally see them delaying the ship until the art is complete.
Also, you imply that simply redoing an existing ship is easy. I don't really know much about 3D art and modeling, but something tells me it isn't a trivial matter to retouch existing models. It may well be 'easier' than making an existing model, but I would assume it still takes some effort.
One thing CaptainGeko brought up in the interview he did was that they just hired a 3rd ship artist, I would have thought they had more than that but it kinda explains the delays a little.
For consideration K'vort battlecruiser hybid 3pk: 5000zen bundle or 2500zen each
Model Size for all is comparable to the Mogai
T5 Tactical variant - XXXX Uni TRIBBLE XX XX X Uni
500 Crew
3 Devices
13 Turn
50 Inertia
1.0 Shield mod
32k Hull
.22 Impulse mod
5 fore/3 aft configuration Can use dual Cannons XX TRIBBLE XXXXX
Standard KDF Cloak
+10 weapons/Engines Bonus power
Uses Standard B'rel skin, B'Roth skin varient is unlocked if you own the T1 Refit Special item - Heavy Disruptor Dual beam bank:
90' targeting arc
to target: 328.2 Disruptor base Damage (2/3 firing cycle)
to self: -12 Weapon Power when firing other weapons
to target: 2.5 Chance: 10% Shield Damage Resistance Debuff for 15 secs
+60% Critical Severity
T5 Science variant - XXXX Uni TRIBBLE XX XX X Uni
500 Crew
3 Devices
11 Turn
50 Inertia
1.1 Shield mod
34k Hull
.19 Impulse mod
5 fore/3 aft configuration Can use dual Cannons XX XXXXX TRIBBLE
Standard KDF Cloak
+10 Shields/Auxillary Bonus power, Sensor Analysis
Uses Qul'Dun skin, Qaw'Dun skin varient is unlocked if you own the T2 Refit Special item - Electronic Warfare Systems universal console - passive
+6% critical chance
+15.3 Starship Particle Generator
+15.3 Starship Graviton Generators
+15.3 Starship Subspace Decompiler
Adds 7.5% of your Weapon power to your Auxillary power as bonus power
T5 Engineer variant - XXXX Uni TRIBBLE XX XX X Uni
500 Crew
3 Devices
10 Turn
50 Inertia
1.15 Shield mod
36k Hull
.18 Impulse mod
5 fore/3 aft configuration Can use dual Cannons XXXX XX XXXX
Standard KDF Cloak
+10 weapons/Shields Bonus power
Uses Ki'Tang skin, Ch'Tang skin varient is unlocked if you own the T4 Refit Special Item - Enhanced Systems Booster universal console - passive
+45.8% Power Transfer Rate
+22.9% Flight Turn Rate
+15.3 Starship Structural Integrity
+15.3 Starship Shield System
+15.3 Starship Power Insulators
Can mix-match pieces to customize in the ship tailor
Can use standard Battlecruiser Comm Arrays 2pc Set Passive bonus - Autonomous Holographic repair teams are deployed for 20 secs if hull goes below 50% repairing Hull and Shields (cannot proc more than once per 60secs) 3pc Set Passive bonus - Upgrades standard cloak to BattleCloak and grants a 10% increase to de-cloak damage bonus
Thoughts - Inspiration was drawn from the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle-cruiser, Breen Chell Gret Warship, and Fleet Mogai to blend a maneuverable battle-cruiser with heavy firepower while hearkening back to the original raider design with the Universal commander and ensign stations to allow some seating variations. Skin variants available also allow players who have previously purchased the lower tier refits to get some additional use and encourage new players to purchase them to unlock additional customization options.
The ultimate question for cryptic is if they made it would the kdf players buy it?
For start those universal console are far to good and most ship specific consoles tend to be more gimmicky.
Also the stats between version are too different, cryptic change a console here and there, change a boff station or two but that's generally it.
Cryptic don't like to put weapons on C-store ship that are better than regular weapon, if it came with a special weapon it would probably be a disruptor wing cannon with a crappy [Dmg]x4 mod.
I think the K'vort stats should be closer to the Andorian escort, in between a BoP and a Battle Cruiser
Less turn than a BoP but more than a Battle Cruiser
More hull than a BoP but less than a Battle Cruiser
For start those universal console are far to good and most ship specific consoles tend to be more gimmicky.
Also the stats between version are too different, cryptic change a console here and there, change a boff station or two but that's generally it.
Cryptic don't like to put weapons on C-store ship that are better than regular weapon, if it came with a special weapon it would probably be a disruptor wing cannon with a crappy [Dmg]x4 mod.
I think the K'vort stats should be closer to the Andorian escort, in between a BoP and a Battle Cruiser
Less turn than a BoP but more than a Battle Cruiser
More hull than a BoP but less than a Battle Cruiser
Basally you have the Raptor but Better.
Granted the consoles maybe a bit over the top, the dbb was inspired by the elite fleet disrupt or proc the reason I made the ship's stats themselves so different was if we got a ship pack similar to this for instance its been what 2 years since the Bortasqu' ship pack or any kdf ships in the c-store except for the 2 new - old lower tier bops added with LoR. the set allows for a quicker turning tactical version with 5 forward guns, 5 tac consoles with less hull, a more sciency version same basic stats but with 5 sci slots, sensor analysis and 8 potential sci abilities, and the engineer version being tankiest with hull/shield mod 4 engy consoles and 4 tag consoles. To suit a variety of playstyles , who knows when or if we will really get new kdf ships with only 3 ship artists employed. Anyone is welcome to come up with how you would like a K'vort to be just have to ask yourself will players buy it, cause if the next kdf ship bombs there will not be anymore made. because then the argument will be we gave kdf the bortasqu and "x" ship and both failed so now we won't even pretend to care about the kdf faction anymore, since there is no money in it.
PS - all those console stats were copy pasted from different consoles/set weapons in game at this time with some stats toned down
Did any of those stats come from C-store ship consoles?
Awww you caught me :P
most are from rep or lock box consoles but if your gonna build a dream ship have to think big otherwise you end up with junk like the grappler or ionized torpedoes while seen on the shows they still get discarded quickly due to there limeted usefulness.
Shopks had an idea for a sensor buoy console which I kinda liked in another thread.
I had also thought about a disrupt or auto cannon but my Bortas already has that so any interesting console ideas?
Shopks had an idea for a sensor buoy console which I kinda liked in another thread.
I had also thought about a disrupt or auto cannon but my Bortas already has that so any interesting console ideas?
Considering the size of those guns and the...rather unique torpedo one such ship fired in "Redemption" part 1
that very much messed up the shields on Gowron's ship I'd have two propsals:
"Super-Heavy Dual Cannon" that deals more damage and does not lose damage with distance as drastically as other cannon weapons do but has a slower rate of fire and its own sound effect...essentially what we saw in the shows.
And a special torpedo console.
Either one that fires a special anti-shield torpedo or one that upgrades the next torpedo attack to also deal damage to shields in addition to its regular damage (kinda like the Nadion Detontor Console). Given it's now pretty much a given than Tachyon weapons do damage to shields, how about a Tachyon-Injection for our torpedoes?;)
fleet k'Vort with fixed wings and appropriate size would be the best klingon ship ever .. just make the stats good enough, i wouldnt mind 5 front slots and enhanced battle cloak but thats not a must
that very much messed up the shields on Gowron's ship I'd have two propsals:
"Super-Heavy Dual Cannon" that deals more damage and does not lose damage with distance as drastically as other cannon weapons do but has a slower rate of fire and its own sound effect...essentially what we saw in the shows.
And a special torpedo console.
Either one that fires a special anti-shield torpedo or one that upgrades the next torpedo attack to also deal damage to shields in addition to its regular damage (kinda like the Nadion Detontor Console). Given it's now pretty much a given than Tachyon weapons do damage to shields, how about a Tachyon-Injection for our torpedoes?;)
Interesting ideas
similar to the Elachi heavy crescent cannon but as a dual?
would a Tachyon-Injection console which could add the effect to any torpedo or a special Tachyon-Infused torpedo weapon similar perhaps to the Concetrated-Tachyon mines from the Ferengi set be better?
Actually would lean towards a console myseft maybe but you could combine the special torpedo with the Photon detonation console for a nice AoE effect also.
any thoughts for an engineering ability special, kinda like the 3pc bonus I'd written up as it would give us a counter vs roms damage wise at the price of having to use all 3pcs which means more sales, which means I can maybe get a Lethean ship one day.
Comments
Question is do you? :rolleyes:
the TV series always a made vague comments and reuse the same footage alot of times, as i mention b4 because of budget concerns of the time... not to mention they did not use 3D models on the TNG series at that time, they used Studio models which take up time and money to make new scenes. and through out the ST TV seires they consistantly shows the BoP from the range of 100-150-300-600+ meters but they were not mention by size by the main characters and most of the time they called them by Bird of Preys.
The so called Backstage and third-party sources u mention of the Star Trek Ecyclopedia and Tech Manuals were made by the Prodution staff of the Star Trek TV francise series and offically reconized by Paramount to be ''Offical'' therefor making it ''Canon''
Let's look at the term ''Canon''...
- ''all the writings of an author that are accepted as genuine.''
- ''In fiction, canon is the conceptual material accepted as "official" in a fictional universe's fan base.''
- ''Another word for official. Used quite often in fan fiction to differentiate between the official storyline in which the fan fiction is based on.''
Despite what was seen on the TV series, anything that Paramount and it's ST Production staff put on their ''Offical'' tech books are ''Canon''
In the stated to be ''Uncommon'' for B'rels to be in scrap yards in ''Rascal'', the D-12 class another same design BoP was the only time a entire BoP class which was mention by Worf as ''Retired'' in ST: Generations because of ''defective plasma coils'', and the K'vort was mentioned 2 times in the TV series, once being mention as a ''Battle Cruiser''.
If the B'rel were retired, then why did STO and most other ST video games used the B'rel by named instead of the ''K'vort'' for the smaller BoP types in Star Trek ''Armada'', ''Dominion Wars'', ''Starfleet Command'' and ''Bridge Commander'' series, etc. and most of these them were based either in the late 24th century or during/post Dominion war era games.
YOU'RE A FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKEEEEEEE
- Judge Aaron Satie
Anything else is apocryphal.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Canon
On top of that, Star Trek Games are not canon either, nor have any obligation of strict adherence to canon.
Now while I personally love and embrace the expansion of the Star Trek universe through licensed works like tech manuals and what not, it still does not change the fact that they aren't canon.
See my post. Btw ,if you dont want it... thats fine.. but quite a few of us do...
Every other ST game has a K'Vort or other named variant in them.. why not this one?
Also, sorry to disappoint you.... cuz Im older too but, nothing TNG has been considered "new creation" for quite some time... 30 years ago is quite a long time ago man... I know it seems like just yesterday but, TNG is def. not new.
Yeah, that's right.
Sorry to break it to you, but the person who wrote on that memory alpha article like u also don't know what the true defenition what ''Canon'' is, nor does he work on the dictionary. look up my previous post for what ''Canon'' is.
Again, like i said b4 and which u avoid and failed to mention alot of times, can u explain the different sizes of the BoP class from 100-150-300-600+ meters on the TV series. and again as i said b4 the TV Series barely and did not mention the sizes of these ships. so the prodution team of the Star Trek TV Franchises (NOT Fans.. the people who created the ST universe) made out these ST encyclpedias to explain the weapons and stats of the ships of their shows and these were consider to be ''Offical'' by Paramount, there were also other comic book, novels and other works that came out about the ST expanded universe... these were NOT consider ''Offical'' by Paramount.
Never said that the ST Games were Canon, i only said they used the B'rel by named only to describe their smaller BoP class in their games, which means they got their names for the ships from offical star trek sources from Paramount/CBS. also CBS is overlooking STO very closely for an example they wanted the ''Consitution'' class by name and ship NOT to be used as a playable Teir 5 ship, which indicates they got people who knows the Star Trek ships classes by names and they're the ones who no doubt ask Cryptic to use the B'rel name on one of the BoP classes and NOT the K'vort which u claim to be the secessor of the B'rel.
The only people that can say what ''Canon'' truly is, is the people who invented the fan based universes or the people who hold the license to it. for an example George Lucas and his production made works that includes few certain books which George Lucas considers ''Canon'', anything else like the expanded universe, comics books most video games are not consider canon. JMS who made the Babylon 5 universe in who got people making B5 tech manuals and certain Novels which he considers ''Canon'' and again there are also other works out these which he considers not canon. and since Gene Rod is dead and can't say what is canon and what is not, it falls down to the people who own the ST rights which is Paramount/CBS.
But not everything is literal down to the very definition of the words.
Its the general stance and consensus of the Star Trek community as a whole, and the policy of Memory Alpha that only content from the TV series and Movies are considered canon.
Which is why Memory-Beta exists, that deals in licensed Star Trek Works.
Fact of the matter is, vast majority of BoP's seen on screen have simply just been referred to as a "Bird of Prey", which encompasses a type of ship, not a particular class.
Now the B'rel being indentified as a small class of Bird of Prey is an expansion by licensed works.
And theres nothing strange about information being taken from licensed work to be used in the games which also are licensed works.
In fact its only logical to use licensed works to fill in the information gaps and discrepencies.
But it still does not actually make it canon.
I'll have to look for a K'vort in Klingon academy but I don't remember seeing one, and Starfleet command 2 didn't have one either. I didn't play alot of unmodded Bridge Commander, but I would say the K'vort was absent in that game unless you count player created mods.
Maybe you're saying these games aren't really Star Trek games because they didn't have a K'vort in them ?
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
This upcoming Negh'var will probably have the same stats as the Avenger. Coincidentally, the Avenger has the same turn rate as the standard and even Fleet Negh'Var.
The Feds have the Advanced Escort and the MVA-Advanced Escort that both look the same but have different boff layouts.
≡/\≡
R.I.P
Model Size for all is comparable to the Mogai
T5 Tactical variant -
XXXX Uni
TRIBBLE
XX
XX
X Uni
500 Crew
3 Devices
13 Turn
50 Inertia
1.0 Shield mod
32k Hull
.22 Impulse mod
5 fore/3 aft configuration Can use dual Cannons
XX
TRIBBLE
XXXXX
Standard KDF Cloak
+10 weapons/Engines Bonus power
Uses Standard B'rel skin, B'Roth skin varient is unlocked if you own the T1 Refit
Special item - Heavy Disruptor Dual beam bank:
90' targeting arc
to target: 328.2 Disruptor base Damage (2/3 firing cycle)
to self: -12 Weapon Power when firing other weapons
to target: 2.5 Chance: 10% Shield Damage Resistance Debuff for 15 secs
+60% Critical Severity
T5 Science variant -
XXXX Uni
TRIBBLE
XX
XX
X Uni
500 Crew
3 Devices
11 Turn
50 Inertia
1.1 Shield mod
34k Hull
.19 Impulse mod
5 fore/3 aft configuration Can use dual Cannons
XX
XXXXX
TRIBBLE
Standard KDF Cloak
+10 Shields/Auxillary Bonus power, Sensor Analysis
Uses Qul'Dun skin, Qaw'Dun skin varient is unlocked if you own the T2 Refit
Special item - Electronic Warfare Systems universal console - passive
+6% critical chance
+15.3 Starship Particle Generator
+15.3 Starship Graviton Generators
+15.3 Starship Subspace Decompiler
Adds 7.5% of your Weapon power to your Auxillary power as bonus power
T5 Engineer variant -
XXXX Uni
TRIBBLE
XX
XX
X Uni
500 Crew
3 Devices
10 Turn
50 Inertia
1.15 Shield mod
36k Hull
.18 Impulse mod
5 fore/3 aft configuration Can use dual Cannons
XXXX
XX
XXXX
Standard KDF Cloak
+10 weapons/Shields Bonus power
Uses Ki'Tang skin, Ch'Tang skin varient is unlocked if you own the T4 Refit
Special Item - Enhanced Systems Booster universal console - passive
+45.8% Power Transfer Rate
+22.9% Flight Turn Rate
+15.3 Starship Structural Integrity
+15.3 Starship Shield System
+15.3 Starship Power Insulators
Can mix-match pieces to customize in the ship tailor
Can use standard Battlecruiser Comm Arrays
2pc Set Passive bonus - Autonomous Holographic repair teams are deployed for 20 secs if hull goes below 50% repairing Hull and Shields (cannot proc more than once per 60secs)
3pc Set Passive bonus - Upgrades standard cloak to BattleCloak and grants a 10% increase to de-cloak damage bonus
Thoughts - Inspiration was drawn from the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle-cruiser, Breen Chell Gret Warship, and Fleet Mogai to blend a maneuverable battle-cruiser with heavy firepower while hearkening back to the original raider design with the Universal commander and ensign stations to allow some seating variations. Skin variants available also allow players who have previously purchased the lower tier refits to get some additional use and encourage new players to purchase them to unlock additional customization options.
The ultimate question for cryptic is if they made it would the kdf players buy it?
Looking at those special items they are overpowered.
Bird of Prey are know for using Cannons instead of Beams. More realistic weapon be something like a Wide Angle Dual Disruptor Cannon [Arc] [Acc] [CrtH] and its damage scales with level. Or a Photon Torpedo like that instead of Dual Disruptor Cannon.
Science item could be something like Towing Tactor Beam. Does very small amount of Kinetic Damage but reduces targets Flight Speed,Turn rate and Engine Power by 50%
Engineering item could be something that improves the cloak. Like makes ship able to cloak in combat and reduces the Cloaks cooldown as well shields remain up until the ship is fully cloaked and +15 to Stealth.
hardly anyone uses dual cannons if dual heavy cannons are availible, same issue with torpedoes.
tractor beam is a boff power would you really buy ship to get a "tractor beam" console with a 3min CD?
the ship has a cloak unless kdf get romulan like boff traits I don't think people would buy it for a simple reduction.
The ship is in essence a light battle cruiser the size of the mogai destroyer not a bop raider. time to think outside the box, due to the power creep introduced with the romulan faction.
Ask yourself what would I want in a light battle cruiser if I could design it, and what would entice ppl to buy that ship over what they already have.
The K'vort strike a cord with kdf players as it has the styling of a bird of prey while not quite being one, personally I think that kdf players chose the faction since they could fly a bird of prey.
If Dual Cannons had more firing arc more people would use them. I see a lot of people using torps in the game. Maybe in PvP are they used much less. When I think of Dual Cannons I do think of Bird of Prey but when thinking of Dual Heavy Cannons a Negh'Var so make the weapon more resemble that.
It would not be like a normal tractor beam. It would debuff someone and the debuff will apply even if someone is using Polarized Hull or Attack Pattern Omega.
The cloaking one would make reduce cloaking cooldown but also make it safer by keeping shields up until fully cloaked as well as making you harder to detect.
I will agree to disagree
Personally, I wouldn't drop another 5000 Zen for wide angle dual cannons, already have quad cannons. A wide angle photon time to target to slow versus common quantum torpedoes or a tractor beam taking up a console slot that I could slot say the Zero Point console that gives more benefits. The consoles I suggested were something that might get me to give up a console I would normally slot though for example:
eng have 2x Neutronium for resistance, a Tachyokinetic for turn and crit
sci have Assimilated console, Zero-Point, Isokinetic console
tac have 3x Disruptor induction coils
3x Disruptor DHC, Quantum torpedo or DBB
2x Disruptor turrets
that is the typical setup on my T5 B'rel which turn in the 60+turn range.
Also, you imply that simply redoing an existing ship is easy. I don't really know much about 3D art and modeling, but something tells me it isn't a trivial matter to retouch existing models. It may well be 'easier' than making an existing model, but I would assume it still takes some effort.
For start those universal console are far to good and most ship specific consoles tend to be more gimmicky.
Also the stats between version are too different, cryptic change a console here and there, change a boff station or two but that's generally it.
Cryptic don't like to put weapons on C-store ship that are better than regular weapon, if it came with a special weapon it would probably be a disruptor wing cannon with a crappy [Dmg]x4 mod.
I think the K'vort stats should be closer to the Andorian escort, in between a BoP and a Battle Cruiser
Less turn than a BoP but more than a Battle Cruiser
More hull than a BoP but less than a Battle Cruiser
Basally you have the Raptor but Better.
≡/\≡
Granted the consoles maybe a bit over the top, the dbb was inspired by the elite fleet disrupt or proc the reason I made the ship's stats themselves so different was if we got a ship pack similar to this for instance its been what 2 years since the Bortasqu' ship pack or any kdf ships in the c-store except for the 2 new - old lower tier bops added with LoR. the set allows for a quicker turning tactical version with 5 forward guns, 5 tac consoles with less hull, a more sciency version same basic stats but with 5 sci slots, sensor analysis and 8 potential sci abilities, and the engineer version being tankiest with hull/shield mod 4 engy consoles and 4 tag consoles. To suit a variety of playstyles , who knows when or if we will really get new kdf ships with only 3 ship artists employed. Anyone is welcome to come up with how you would like a K'vort to be just have to ask yourself will players buy it, cause if the next kdf ship bombs there will not be anymore made. because then the argument will be we gave kdf the bortasqu and "x" ship and both failed so now we won't even pretend to care about the kdf faction anymore, since there is no money in it.
PS - all those console stats were copy pasted from different consoles/set weapons in game at this time with some stats toned down
Did any of those stats come from C-store ship consoles?
R.I.P
Awww you caught me :P
most are from rep or lock box consoles but if your gonna build a dream ship have to think big otherwise you end up with junk like the grappler or ionized torpedoes while seen on the shows they still get discarded quickly due to there limeted usefulness.
Shopks had an idea for a sensor buoy console which I kinda liked in another thread.
I had also thought about a disrupt or auto cannon but my Bortas already has that so any interesting console ideas?
Considering the size of those guns and the...rather unique torpedo one such ship fired in "Redemption" part 1
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/5011/wpeq.jpg
that very much messed up the shields on Gowron's ship I'd have two propsals:
"Super-Heavy Dual Cannon" that deals more damage and does not lose damage with distance as drastically as other cannon weapons do but has a slower rate of fire and its own sound effect...essentially what we saw in the shows.
And a special torpedo console.
Either one that fires a special anti-shield torpedo or one that upgrades the next torpedo attack to also deal damage to shields in addition to its regular damage (kinda like the Nadion Detontor Console). Given it's now pretty much a given than Tachyon weapons do damage to shields, how about a Tachyon-Injection for our torpedoes?;)
Interesting ideas
similar to the Elachi heavy crescent cannon but as a dual?
would a Tachyon-Injection console which could add the effect to any torpedo or a special Tachyon-Infused torpedo weapon similar perhaps to the Concetrated-Tachyon mines from the Ferengi set be better?
Actually would lean towards a console myseft maybe but you could combine the special torpedo with the Photon detonation console for a nice AoE effect also.
any thoughts for an engineering ability special, kinda like the 3pc bonus I'd written up as it would give us a counter vs roms damage wise at the price of having to use all 3pcs which means more sales, which means I can maybe get a Lethean ship one day.