I'm not going to say I never go AFK, but I think that this needs to be done carefully, because having a wife and multiple kids means you can get pulled away at inconvenient times - sometimes for a minute or two, other times it might be longer.... Doesn't mean I'm doing it on purpose or out of spite, sometimes it just can't be helped. That doesn't mean I should get a 2 hour ban for it.
pugs are pugs, if you don't want people going afk on you, or not knowing when to blow a cube, or not following the 10% rule, then play with your own teammates in a private game.
I think the best way would be an inactivity timer to automatically kick you from the game, so someone else can queue in, because if you're playing the game, odds are if your game doesn't get any new commands from your keyboard/mouse for 60 or 90 seconds or more, you're not there. Because in an STF, even if you're sitting still, you're usually looking around with the mouse.
And I don't think there should really be a penalty, unless its habitual.. like if you get kicked for inactivity for 5 games in a row or 7 of the last 10, or whatever... then have a stiff penalty.
pugs are pugs, if you don't want people going afk on you, or not knowing when to blow a cube, or not following the 10% rule, then play with your own teammates in a private game.
And if a private game isn't an option, I guess your recourse is no queued PvE at all. :rolleyes:
pugs are pugs, if you don't want people going afk on you, or not knowing when to blow a cube, or not following the 10% rule, then play with your own teammates in a private game.
Are you sure the AFK-detection isn't live in private games? I don't think I've seen any confirmation of that...
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
In private game you have a team leader who can kick.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
You know, I don't know, my clan doesn't actually have an active team in STO, so all I play are pugs, and to be right honest... I don't see AFK players as a huge problem. I very rarely see inactive people in the games.
More often will I see people who drop out from the game, and then nobody gets queued back in to fill the spot for a really long time, if ever. That is the bigger problem, as I see it. (especially in hive)
In private game you have a team leader who can kick.
That doesn't mean that the AFK feature isn't there though, it just means that it's not necessary. Other queue mechanisms (like cooldowns) *are* present in private games, so it's quite possible that in order to keep the code simple, that AFK-detection is also live in private games.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
And what evidence do you have that confirms players can get flagged as AFK when they get DC'd while in queue?
Oh that's right you have none.
And what evidence do you have that confirms players get flagged as AFK when the mission map doesn't load?
Oh that's right once again you have none.
And why is it you don't have any evidence that those things have happened? It's because you haven't bothered to try testing it on the Redshirt server before the devs took it down for more work.
But please continue ranting. Your paranoid delusions are amusing. :P
You call my questions a Rant?? And you know for a fact my exact history of experiences in Star Trek without even knowing who i am.. You Sir are an amazing being.. Even God should worship your shadow.
60 - 90 seconds? Glad you aren't a dev. 10-15 minutes bare minimum for inactivity would be least I would allow if I were only using a timer.
10-15 minutes in an STF and it would typically be over, one way or another, if you're short handed. At least, the space ones. And only a timer may not be the best idea either.
THAT was all you had? Ok, disappointing.:rolleyes:
And having read your subsequent post since I was on last, you obviously have no clue what you are on about, so you know what, I'm done. There is no point wasting any more time on you.
It's not myfault ifyoufeel trolledbymyDisco ball...Sorry'boutit.
Welp, I told you guys this would happen. Despite the fact that the "AFK Penalty" was not actually supposed to be pushed to live yet according to the patch notes, it made it in.
I told you this wasn't gonna work, and what's more, if it gets applied to private matches, even more wonky **** will happen: People make private matches specifically because they want to do weird stuff, without disturbing the peasants. If that means 4 guys spectating one guy who is trying to solo the mission, I do not see why this is wrong and that those 4 should be banned for actions taken in private with the agreement of all involved.
Likely a combination of your client not responding for most of the round, or you not doing any damage, healing, or debuffing through any stage of the event. This is common of indicating an AFKer.
Then hopefully it doesn't happen often for an entire stage, but if it does, you are an AFKer and shouldn't be leeching from a group knowing that you're likely to cause that entire team to loose the round with a lag spike larger than the US shutdown (too early?).
sometimes i load a STF and it has like a 3 min loading screen.. first time i get that and get a 2 hour stf ban i am not going to be happy.
Then this would indicate that your connection or computer is so poor that you knowingly join a STF to take up a slot for the first quarter of that STF (being I usually run them in 12 mins with the fleet). This means you are an AFKer and shouldn't be happy, so go find another game where you can leach a quarter of what you have from others.
My guess is that it will be a 3 min sweep that is looking for hey strokes. If no keystroke happens than you are tagged afk
I doubt they would do this, my G19 keyboard can perform automated keystrokes for a period of an hour (or more). Being that STO has an app specifically for this keyboard, I'm sure they know this too and will look at other aspects such as damage, healing, and overall contribution to the group during each stage.
In the field of computer security, there is a concept called "security by obscurity". It is considered a bad idea to rely on your opponents' ignorance of the your system's details. You should assume that your opponent is not dumb and will figure it out anyway. A good system is designed to work even against those who know the full details of the system.
As the owner of a few systems myself that I administer for my company, this is true, but there is a clear difference between locking down a few predictable run-times, ports, and permissions than tracking and calculating the movements of 20 unpredictable players in a three dimensional area while applying algorithms to detect whether or not they are properly contributing to the team. Also, even you have to agree, when programs are subject to open source communities, they usually suffer from false-positive security responses. Config Server Firewall is the perfect example of this which has the potential of locking you out remotely on the first log in.
You have to remember that people play this game for enjoyment. If you make the holes in this game so tight that players have to strain to squeeze through them, this will lead to larger "server population" issues. So in this situation where the rest of the players have nothing to loose but enjoyment, the last thing you want to do is further compromise that very enjoyment to ease the little lost enjoyment they had. In short, security by obscurity is quite acceptable in this situation.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
I've been pondering how to have the system separate lagged players from actual AFKers.
The idea I came up with works like TCP/IP ping packets. On a regular time interval (in seconds 1-5 seems good), the client computer that the player is sitting at sends a tiny data packet to the server for no reason other than to say "I'm still here". If the server receives these on a regular interval it know the player is not experiencing network lag. But if it doesn't get one for say... 20 seconds, and suddenly gets 5 of them... well that's different.
Oh and security by obscurity is a very important first step to keeping people out of your system. It's only a first line of defense but a very important one.
Need to know what determines an afker. As already said, people wont be happy if they get the afk punishment because of server lag/long loading screens....
Vote to kick would never work. Too much griefing potential for that to ever happen.
Now, had they used a vote to stay in method, that would have been better imo...
I agree vote to kick out from four players would be better who knows what this system will be like. I just played into the vortex and because the other gate needed help I was left alone to stop probes while the other guy who was with me went to help. if the player who was just hanging out helped we would have made the optional.:mad:
A vote to kick out a player from a vote that is in agreement from the other four players is better because if you vote someone out that could open the possibility that someone else can join the game and a better chance of making optional.:D
mark my words.. you guys were screaming about afkers ruining everything.
once then put this in, i bet you 100% you same people will be screaming about all the times you get a 2 hour ban..
afkers are a problem yes.. but something automated is not the solution.. vote to kick would have been better.
And people scream that that is unfair too. Its a double edged sword Crytpic is dancing on here. Give them a break and give the system a chance.
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
Actually... If I get a two hour AFK ban, and feel I didn't deserve it... my first inclination will be to repeat the same mission on another toon, running fraps to capture the video...putting no more effort in... to see if I can duplicate the problem... and provide the video and any logs to as a support ticket so the math can be checked, and the Dev's could update the info.
Key point, I would provide an evidence based argument...
Lots of times when my fleet runs STF elites we will bring a player that is new to the fleet that has never done elite STF's before, and very often that player does little or no damage because they do not have pimped out ships and they don't understand all the objectives of playing each STF.
I just hope the new AFK penalty does not punish our newbies, without them our fleet is doomed because having run guilds in countless MMO's I have come to understand that the fleet/guild that does not have new players entering their ranks is set up to begin spiraling into failure.
Key point, I would provide an evidence based argument...
Which makes you far more useful than probably anyone else on either side of the debate.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Well done cryptic! The AFK problem has been a long term issue and its great to see it being addressed.
However I am also very concerned about "carries", specifically low DPS players who join elites and who expect to be carried through STFs they have no business being in. They barely contribute to the team and soak up a team slot that someone more useful could take. I'm talking about those players who can't even stop non-hostile probes in Khitomer Accord Space Elite, the players who die to a single Borg Sphere and the ones with a dozen ship injuries before the match even starts. :mad:
Let's get rid of the dead weight players next - if they don't know what they are doing then they should be forced to stick to normal mode STFs until they can parse a minimum amount of DPS .
It doesn't even need to be that high, but when fighter pets are drawing aggro off low DPS players you know there's a problem that needs to be fixed. Let's get rid of the dead weight players next by implementing a system that kicks mid-match if their in game combat log drops below a certain DPS output.
Let's bring the elite back to elite STFs!
Well, I hate to say this, BUT, so if YOU don't perform as I think you should, then you should be hit with a penalty ban right? That's basically what you're saying. While I don't support leechers at all, and hate griefers with a passion, there ARE those who join elite STF's, being new to it, and trying to learn. And really, if you can't put up with that, that's what private matches are for. You're guaranteed not to have to put up with that.
Another thing to think of, for you DPS-centric mind....what if that low DPS guy has a bunch of CC abilities, repair abilities he's throwing around to teammates, fighters, etc, that's possible on ships? Hmmm? You still want him off your team? I bet the first time you pop you'd be screaming about that guy not repairing you, when he could have. Oooops, but you wanted a system implemented that would kick low-DPS guys, so he wasn't able to be on your team.....
If there's one thing that's as bad as a leecher, it's an elitest......
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
What I want to know is has there been any match where 5 AFK'ers entered a match together...
AFK1 'Well is anyone going to do anything'
AFK2 'No we're waiting on you.'
AFK1 'Don't look at me, I thought you four were going to get it half done by now.
AFK2 'I cant Im away from keyboard twittering pictures of my cats TRIBBLE.'
AFK3 'And I'm on the John'
AFK1 'You lat two, get out there and farm those points for us'
AFK4 'Wot?'
AFK5 'Que?'
OMFG I just about died laughing!!!!!!;):cool::cool:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Hate to break it to you but in this example, you are leeching/AFKing and deserve the penalty. You're admitting you weren't participating in the event. Why would you expect to get a reward?
Because being needlessly punitive towards players who have legitimate reasons to take their hands off the keyboard for more than two seconds would be nothing short of insane. It's one thing to target chronically AFK players. It's something else entirely to carpet-bomb a playerbase to achieve that goal.
Because being needlessly punitive towards players who have legitimate reasons to take their hands off the keyboard for more than two seconds would be nothing short of insane. It's one thing to target chronically AFK players. It's something else entirely to carpet-bomb a playerbase to achieve that goal.
If you are not actively participating for any reason, you shouldn't be in the instance.
If you are not actively participating for any reason, you shouldn't be in the instance.
Plain and simple.
Well to be honest if people are too stupid to use the in-game tools to combat afk'ers (teaming with friends/fleetmates, private queues, etc.), to the point that Cryptic had to compensate for their stupidity by implementing this penalty, then they should not be in any instance. Plain and simple.
Don't get me wrong, afk'ing/leeching should come with a penalty, but Cryptic only did this because it seems the majority of the player base has the collective IQ of a moldy turnip. Sorry, but to me it's just wrong to have to do something simply because you have to compensate for other peoples stupidity.
I don't care what the header says, I am not now, nor have I ever been, nor will I ever be, an "ARC user".
To you, needing to go answer a phone call for 15 minutes may be a "legitimate" reason to leave the keyboard. To others who are continuing the match short 1 person, it's not. In the post I cited, the poster unequivocally said they went AFK. Whether you feel it's a legit reason or not, if you go AFK and don't participate, don't expect to get a reward for it.
Please quote for me where I've made any statements supporting going AFK for longer periods of time than it takes to complete the overwhelming majority of STO's content. You can't because I never have. So don't put words in my mouth.
Since you clearly didn't comprehend it the first time, I'm going to repeat myself even more clearly. It is one thing to target chronically AFK players for action. It's something else entirely to have targeting criteria so broad that any player who so much as takes their hands off the controls to sneeze is caught up in the AFK penalty. Demanding 100% uptime from players falls squarely into the latter category.
It depends on how long you are afk for. And this is where a voting mechanic might work. If somebody tells the team they need to afk for 1-2 min and the team is fine with it, that person shouldn't be penalized for that. However, if the person repeatedly goes afk, they automically lose the reward. That being said, the afker could initiate a vote to reinstate the reward which would require unanimous agreement to be won in favor of the afker.
So it's a win, win for all. If a team feels the person should get the reward, then so be it, and the afker couldn't abuse it b/c it's an automatic disqualification from winning of the reward.
Edit: If I have to go afk, I let the team know via chat and apologize. Keep in mind that some of the anger that's directed at afkers could be avoided by just using some basic manners and etiquette.
Comments
pugs are pugs, if you don't want people going afk on you, or not knowing when to blow a cube, or not following the 10% rule, then play with your own teammates in a private game.
I think the best way would be an inactivity timer to automatically kick you from the game, so someone else can queue in, because if you're playing the game, odds are if your game doesn't get any new commands from your keyboard/mouse for 60 or 90 seconds or more, you're not there. Because in an STF, even if you're sitting still, you're usually looking around with the mouse.
And I don't think there should really be a penalty, unless its habitual.. like if you get kicked for inactivity for 5 games in a row or 7 of the last 10, or whatever... then have a stiff penalty.
Founder, Midnight Squadron
http://www.midnightsquadron.com
And if a private game isn't an option, I guess your recourse is no queued PvE at all. :rolleyes:
Are you sure the AFK-detection isn't live in private games? I don't think I've seen any confirmation of that...
More often will I see people who drop out from the game, and then nobody gets queued back in to fill the spot for a really long time, if ever. That is the bigger problem, as I see it. (especially in hive)
Founder, Midnight Squadron
http://www.midnightsquadron.com
That doesn't mean that the AFK feature isn't there though, it just means that it's not necessary. Other queue mechanisms (like cooldowns) *are* present in private games, so it's quite possible that in order to keep the code simple, that AFK-detection is also live in private games.
You call my questions a Rant?? And you know for a fact my exact history of experiences in Star Trek without even knowing who i am.. You Sir are an amazing being.. Even God should worship your shadow.
system Lord Baal is dead
10-15 minutes in an STF and it would typically be over, one way or another, if you're short handed. At least, the space ones. And only a timer may not be the best idea either.
Founder, Midnight Squadron
http://www.midnightsquadron.com
THAT was all you had? Ok, disappointing.:rolleyes:
And having read your subsequent post since I was on last, you obviously have no clue what you are on about, so you know what, I'm done. There is no point wasting any more time on you.
R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
And guess what? People are getting banned for AFKing despite being very active participants in the mission.
I told you this wasn't gonna work, and what's more, if it gets applied to private matches, even more wonky **** will happen: People make private matches specifically because they want to do weird stuff, without disturbing the peasants. If that means 4 guys spectating one guy who is trying to solo the mission, I do not see why this is wrong and that those 4 should be banned for actions taken in private with the agreement of all involved.
I wasn't, but you obviously aren't reading my posts properly or just twist them to make your own argument. Either way, you are below me.
R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
You have in a single sentence made yourself, likely the most hated type of person on this forum by indicating that you are indeed an AFKer.
Likely a combination of your client not responding for most of the round, or you not doing any damage, healing, or debuffing through any stage of the event. This is common of indicating an AFKer.
Then hopefully it doesn't happen often for an entire stage, but if it does, you are an AFKer and shouldn't be leeching from a group knowing that you're likely to cause that entire team to loose the round with a lag spike larger than the US shutdown (too early?).
I'm sure it will look for heals and debuffs.
Then this would indicate that your connection or computer is so poor that you knowingly join a STF to take up a slot for the first quarter of that STF (being I usually run them in 12 mins with the fleet). This means you are an AFKer and shouldn't be happy, so go find another game where you can leach a quarter of what you have from others.
I doubt they would do this, my G19 keyboard can perform automated keystrokes for a period of an hour (or more). Being that STO has an app specifically for this keyboard, I'm sure they know this too and will look at other aspects such as damage, healing, and overall contribution to the group during each stage.
As the owner of a few systems myself that I administer for my company, this is true, but there is a clear difference between locking down a few predictable run-times, ports, and permissions than tracking and calculating the movements of 20 unpredictable players in a three dimensional area while applying algorithms to detect whether or not they are properly contributing to the team. Also, even you have to agree, when programs are subject to open source communities, they usually suffer from false-positive security responses. Config Server Firewall is the perfect example of this which has the potential of locking you out remotely on the first log in.
You have to remember that people play this game for enjoyment. If you make the holes in this game so tight that players have to strain to squeeze through them, this will lead to larger "server population" issues. So in this situation where the rest of the players have nothing to loose but enjoyment, the last thing you want to do is further compromise that very enjoyment to ease the little lost enjoyment they had. In short, security by obscurity is quite acceptable in this situation.
The idea I came up with works like TCP/IP ping packets. On a regular time interval (in seconds 1-5 seems good), the client computer that the player is sitting at sends a tiny data packet to the server for no reason other than to say "I'm still here". If the server receives these on a regular interval it know the player is not experiencing network lag. But if it doesn't get one for say... 20 seconds, and suddenly gets 5 of them... well that's different.
Oh and security by obscurity is a very important first step to keeping people out of your system. It's only a first line of defense but a very important one.
My character Tsin'xing
I agree vote to kick out from four players would be better who knows what this system will be like. I just played into the vortex and because the other gate needed help I was left alone to stop probes while the other guy who was with me went to help. if the player who was just hanging out helped we would have made the optional.:mad:
Private matches have never been subject to penalties. You can quit STFs and everything without penalty. The penalty applies to Queued matches only.
These changes are implemented into the following queued events in normal and elite mode where applicable:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=910761
You quote what some guy said in OCTOBER and then tell what's done in NOVEMBER.
Any particular reason for that?
And people scream that that is unfair too. Its a double edged sword Crytpic is dancing on here. Give them a break and give the system a chance.
Because the original announcement on Redshirt is no longer available. But here is a link to a quote from it back in early October just for you.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=12706671&postcount=1
It has always been for QUEUED events only.
Key point, I would provide an evidence based argument...
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
I just hope the new AFK penalty does not punish our newbies, without them our fleet is doomed because having run guilds in countless MMO's I have come to understand that the fleet/guild that does not have new players entering their ranks is set up to begin spiraling into failure.
Which makes you far more useful than probably anyone else on either side of the debate.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Well, I hate to say this, BUT, so if YOU don't perform as I think you should, then you should be hit with a penalty ban right? That's basically what you're saying. While I don't support leechers at all, and hate griefers with a passion, there ARE those who join elite STF's, being new to it, and trying to learn. And really, if you can't put up with that, that's what private matches are for. You're guaranteed not to have to put up with that.
Another thing to think of, for you DPS-centric mind....what if that low DPS guy has a bunch of CC abilities, repair abilities he's throwing around to teammates, fighters, etc, that's possible on ships? Hmmm? You still want him off your team? I bet the first time you pop you'd be screaming about that guy not repairing you, when he could have. Oooops, but you wanted a system implemented that would kick low-DPS guys, so he wasn't able to be on your team.....
If there's one thing that's as bad as a leecher, it's an elitest......
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
OMFG I just about died laughing!!!!!!;):cool::cool:
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Because being needlessly punitive towards players who have legitimate reasons to take their hands off the keyboard for more than two seconds would be nothing short of insane. It's one thing to target chronically AFK players. It's something else entirely to carpet-bomb a playerbase to achieve that goal.
If you are not actively participating for any reason, you shouldn't be in the instance.
Plain and simple.
Well to be honest if people are too stupid to use the in-game tools to combat afk'ers (teaming with friends/fleetmates, private queues, etc.), to the point that Cryptic had to compensate for their stupidity by implementing this penalty, then they should not be in any instance. Plain and simple.
Don't get me wrong, afk'ing/leeching should come with a penalty, but Cryptic only did this because it seems the majority of the player base has the collective IQ of a moldy turnip. Sorry, but to me it's just wrong to have to do something simply because you have to compensate for other peoples stupidity.
Please quote for me where I've made any statements supporting going AFK for longer periods of time than it takes to complete the overwhelming majority of STO's content. You can't because I never have. So don't put words in my mouth.
Since you clearly didn't comprehend it the first time, I'm going to repeat myself even more clearly. It is one thing to target chronically AFK players for action. It's something else entirely to have targeting criteria so broad that any player who so much as takes their hands off the controls to sneeze is caught up in the AFK penalty. Demanding 100% uptime from players falls squarely into the latter category.
So it's a win, win for all. If a team feels the person should get the reward, then so be it, and the afker couldn't abuse it b/c it's an automatic disqualification from winning of the reward.
Edit: If I have to go afk, I let the team know via chat and apologize. Keep in mind that some of the anger that's directed at afkers could be avoided by just using some basic manners and etiquette.