oh... and as a side note... WE'RE ARGUING OVER NITPICKS IN A FRANCHISE WITH A HISTORY OF REWRITING ITSELF EVERY TIME WE TURNED AROUND SINCE IT AIRED IN THE 60s! We're all fail at this point.
I think Rom ships are overrated. They have cloaks, which I guess are just amazing for pvp. But their ships are starved for power compared to everything else for PvE. Maxing out your weapons power leaves you with hardly any shield/engine/aux power at all. Singularities are useful, but they come with a price too. They just don't have the stats warp cores have. W->S mods? Yes please! On my Prometheus I can manage 90 shield power on top of maxed weapon power with a field stabilizing warp core, among other stats. Singularity cores have no such mods.
Well.. I could agree and not agree but have you seem the scimitar ... It the most awesome ship in the game...mines is I can tank anything its awesome ship and I love it.. As for feds I have 2 feds love them to. The scimitar has battle cloak meaning it can fire while cloaked .. Not many ships have that O_o...There ships are getting better just give it time Don't judge there ships to soon rofl...
oh... and as a side note... WE'RE ARGUING OVER NITPICKS IN A FRANCHISE WITH A HISTORY OF REWRITING ITSELF EVERY TIME WE TURNED AROUND SINCE IT AIRED IN THE 60s! We're all fail at this point.
I love the 60s... wish I was born back then my dad was though XD...
The more defensive she gets, the more insulting her arguments, the more her essays stretch out tossing in more and more big words... its like protogoth is going to google to try and make herself sound smarter. Sorry hun but all you're doin atm is sounding like an TRIBBLE that cant handle anyone disagreeing with her. Im not one of vonhellsting "comrades" I dont even know him/her and I am quite familiar with what canon is. Throw all the bulldung you want, use all the excuses you want, but the fact remains you only accept your narrow little view point on this subject and refuse any and all others. Your crusades smack of a need to force others to abandon their opinions and accept yours.
Im perfectly willing to discuss romulans, what they are/aren't or should/shouldn't be and what we can do to take what cryptic has given us and provide them ideas on how to correct this abortion. I started a fairly successful forum thread that discussed all of this over many pages and it remained troll and flame free. At the time many people had valid points and I accepted many, including some of your own. However I am not gonna bother arguing with a vault(that being your closed mind), when all you do is throw insults wrapped in pseudo-intellectial essays that get longer and longer and more and more condescending. Other people have different views, they're allowed that. Quit trying to make everyone accept yours is the only valid one.
On the contrary, the more insulting you and vonhellsting get, the more I'm going to point out that you're engaging in fallacy. I am not pushing one narrow little view. Quite the contrary. I'm opposing one narrow little view. And I don't have to resort to Google or any other internet search engine or website for my vocabulary.
I love the 60s... wish I was born back then my dad was though XD...
No you don't. I was born then. And aside from the moon landings, most of which actually happened in the '70s, and of course the music, the '60s sucked. Vietnam, Nixon, institutionalized racism and sexism, homosexuality being regarded as a mental disorder at best and a crime at worst, Bell Telephone, not even the simplest of home computers - it was a violent, savage, primitive era...
On the contrary, the more insulting you and vonhellsting get, the more I'm going to point out that you're engaging in fallacy. I am not pushing one narrow little view. Quite the contrary. I'm opposing one narrow little view. And I don't have to resort to Google or any other internet search engine or website for my vocabulary.
If thats what ya gotta tell yourself, so be it. Oh an Ive not been insulting to ya at any point yet.
No you don't. I was born then. And aside from the moon landings, most of which actually happened in the '70s, and of course the music, the '60s sucked. Vietnam, Nixon, institutionalized racism and sexism, homosexuality being regarded as a mental disorder at best and a crime at worst, Bell Telephone, not even the simplest of home computers - it was a violent, savage, primitive era...
And those durn filthy hippies with their crazy jungle boogie music!! :P lol
If thats what ya gotta tell yourself, so be it. Oh an Ive not been insulting to ya at any point yet.
The very post to which I was replying shows examples (nor is it the only post in which you have insulted me in this thread, but I'll just take that post):
"the more her essays stretch out tossing in more and more big words... its like protogoth is going to google to try and make herself sound smarter. Sorry hun but all you're doin atm is sounding like an TRIBBLE that cant handle anyone disagreeing with her."
I'm not going to apologize for my intellect, my education, or my vocabulary. Intelligence is not a weakness or a character flaw. I will, however, offer some explanations of terms below.
"you only accept your narrow little view point on this subject and refuse any and all others. Your crusades smack of a need to force others to abandon their opinions and accept yours."
Accusation of dogmatism and a "crusade" of proselytization.
"I am not gonna bother arguing with a vault(that being your closed mind), when all you do is throw insults wrapped in pseudo-intellectial essays that get longer and longer and more and more condescending."
Characterization of my person as having a closed mind and being pseudo-intellectual and condescending.
"Quit trying to make everyone accept yours is the only valid one."
Accusation of dogmatism and a crusade of proselytization.
The Argumentum ad Hominem is a variation on changing the subject, and there are two main types of Argumentum ad Hominem (one of which is best translated as "argument to the human" -- an appeal to the audience usually involving other fallacies such as "appeal to prejudice," "appeal to emotion," etc), and the other as "argument at the human." In particular, that type of Argumentum ad Hominem known as "Abusive ad Hominem" is an example of the latter, an "argument at the human."
Abusive ad Hominem changes the subject from what someone has said to the alleged character of that person, or some other alleged personal feature, without addressing any of the things that person said -- in short, it is an attack on the person (personal insult) -- or an insult directed at his or her position, without any sort of critique of that position (note that an insult directed at the position may not necessarily be fallacious if and only if it is supported by critique of that position, whereas personal insults are always fallacious).
While vonhellsting has attempted this several times now, you usually have at least tried to discuss what I said (in other threads, that is). It's like vonhellsting has looked at my posts only for something with which to disagree and ignored anything that didn't further an attempt to paint me as a villain (kinda like what I've shown has been done by the same person when examining hard canon for things that can be said about the Romulans). These types of insult are known as "taking things out of context" and "Straw Man." Straw Man is another variation on changing the subject (usually distinguished from Argumentum ad Hominem and regarded as a separate fallacy, although it is, technically, a variation of ad Hominem which is both "argument to the human" and "argument at the human"), in this case, from what was actually said to a caricature of what was said, and then mocking the caricature rather than offering any valid critique of the actual content. Worth noting is the fact that failure or refusal to address every point someone has made is not the same thing; we all do this, because not every point needs to be addressed, but when none are addressed, and instead insults are hurled, or a Straw Man is made of someone's position, then yeah, that's fallacy.
If this is also a "big word," allow me to explain: a fallacy is a flawed argument; it may be flawed in the sense of being an incorrect inference form (faulty reasoning, which takes many forms), an attempt to redirect the discussion (changing the subject, which also takes many forms), an omission of evidence relevant to the matter at hand, or a linguistic error (which takes many forms); some fallacies straddle more than one category; fallacies can be intentional or unintentional (and which is not always obvious). The study of correct and incorrect reasoning (the academic discipline of Logic, again, not Vulcan "Logic") was my primary focus as an undergrad majoring in Philosophy, and what I was trained to teach (if this fails to get the point across, I'll be more explicit: I'm an academic, so "big words" come naturally to me, and I also won't apologize for assuming that everyone participating in this discussion is capable of understanding most of them -- or at least using a search engine or hardcopy dictionary to discover their meanings).
I have several points against this statement. One only the commander expresses his dislike for the mission and it's obvious he does not speak for the entire crew as shown by the Centurions admitted confusion and Decius actions. Two are not politicians part of Romulan culture too? Three it states they fought over a hundred campaigns together if that does not sound like a culture devoted to war then what? Were these missions of peace , I think not.
Yup they cannot fathom the actions of a commander that has seen over 100 engagements and survived rather well. They wish to charge and attack because they is invulnerable! Sorry sounds like he was given a crew straight out of boot camp and not anyone with experience but the centurion. The one guy that never asked to take over or to break rules giving away their position.
Also a little saddened that no one gave a single reply to my thoughts on the ambassador.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Yup they cannot fathom the actions of a commander that has seen over 100 engagements and survived rather well. They wish to charge and attack because they is invulnerable! Sorry sounds like he was given a crew straight out of boot camp and not anyone with experience but the centurion. The one guy that never asked to take over or to break rules giving away their position.
Though even the centurion was disgruntled by the Commanders actions and he had been with him through thick and thin. I will note he wasn't motivated by ambition like the younger Romulan was but that said he pretty much told the Commander off for questioning the order of things.
Please bear with me as I go back to an earlier list and comment on something I have been mulling over.
Romulan Ambassador Nanclus from Undiscovered Country. I think he should not be listed as one of the examples of how the Romulan people are, even then.
First, I think it was bad writing to include him in the list of conspirators. After all what was he shown to have done? Get arrested?
But to look at his involvement as canon, fine. He is listed as a person involved. If his involvement indicates the actions of the Romulan people as a whole. Does not then the actions of General Chang? Or Admiral Cartwright? How about Colonel West?
If Nanclus shows how back stabbing and dishonorable Romulans are then they are by the other examples no worse than the humans or klingons.
I doubt very much the Romulan Ambassador was acting of his own accord Romulan command tended to keep it's operative on a very short leash. The last thing the Romulan government would want was their two enemies allying together so I assume the Romulans were all too happy help the conspirators in any way they could. It's not the first time the Romulans have tried to break up alliances by attempting to turn allies against one another. They did it in Enterprise when the federation was forming and with the Klingons in TNG. That's why I singled him out because I felt the ambassador was not acting alone like the other conspirators but under order to see that this alliance never happened.
While vonhellsting has attempted this several times now, you usually have at least tried to discuss what I said (in other threads, that is). It's like vonhellsting has looked at my posts only for something with which to disagree and ignored anything that didn't further an attempt to paint me as a villain (kinda like what I've shown has been done by the same person when examining hard canon for things that can be said about the Romulans).
Wow at this point I can only assume you're trolling because I asked you to be civil and pointed out several problems I had with your statement but rather than argue your points you seem only interested in taking pot shots at me.:rolleyes:
Though even the centurion was disgruntled by the Commanders actions and he had been with him through thick and thin. I will note he wasn't motivated by ambition like the younger Romulan was but that said he pretty much told the Commander off for questioning the order of things.
"I find myself longing for destruction. <sigh> Worry not, like you I am too well trained to allow it to happen." Personally I think he needed a vacation.
I doubt very much the Romulan Ambassador was acting of his own accord Romulan command tended to keep it's operative on a very short leash. The last thing the Romulan government would want was their two enemies allying together so I assume the Romulans were all too happy help the conspirators in any way they could. It's not the first time the Romulans have tried to break up alliances by attempting to turn allies against one another. They did it in Enterprise when the federation was forming and with the Klingons in TNG. That's why I singled him out because I felt the ambassador was not acting alone like the other conspirators but under order to see that this alliance never happened.
Evidence that they kept agents on a shorter leash than the federation or the Klingons?
Oh and another thought on the let our enemies tear each other apart line.
The Cardassians through the Obsidian order, and the Romulans through the Tal Shi'ar, launch a decapitation strike. The noble federation response? "Let them, it might work." Pitting two sides against one another while you stand back to mop up the rest is not just a romulan tactic.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
"I find myself longing for destruction. <sigh> Worry not, like you I am too well trained to allow it to happen." Personally I think he needed a vacation.
Yes all he wanted in life was a trip to Risa but noo the senate wouldn't let him go he had to do his fleet grinds what a bunch of jerks.:P
On a more serious note I'm not sure what point you're trying make here in regard to my previous statement.
Evidence that they kept agents on a shorter leash than the federation or the Klingons?
Tal'shiar overseeing the military in the face of the enemy episode. The Defector episode where the Admiral is given false information to see if he'll betray the empire. Sela overseeing the Romulan agent in Redemption.
Oh and another thought on the let our enemies tear each other apart line.
The Cardassians through the Obsidian order, and the Romulans through the Tal Shi'ar, launch a decapitation strike. The noble federation response? "Let them, it might work." Pitting two sides against one another while you stand back to mop up the rest is not just a romulan tactic.
Well the Federation is far from spotless it gets it's hands dirty just like everyone else. Though in this case there is a difference the Romulans actively attempted to undermine other civilizations with the goal of conquest where the Federation passively stood by in the hopes their enemies would be destroyed.
Yes in the fact they had been fleshed out a whole tutorial story arc had been made and the romulan content was in many ways far ahead of the KDF and Feds.
No as far as the UI is still buggy the tailor is still bugged the list goes on and on.
Sure it could use a call to the orkin man to fumigate LoR for bugs but as most the case with MMOs its a work in progress its still evolving still changing still growing.
So for now a few bugs is alright with me im just glad for having a whole new sub faction to play/
Yes in the fact they had been fleshed out a whole tutorial story arc had been made and the romulan content was in many ways far ahead of the KDF and Feds.
No as far as the UI is still buggy the tailor is still bugged the list goes on and on.
Sure it could use a call to the orkin man to fumigate LoR for bugs but as most the case with MMOs its a work in progress its still evolving still changing still growing.
So for now a few bugs is alright with me im just glad for having a whole new sub faction to play/
So you believe that in the future, Cryptic will "allow" the romulans to be a Sovereign faction as are the federation and klingons rather than remain the misidentified ( by most critters you encounter in missions ) sub human ( for lack of a better term ) lackeys to the klingons and federation; fit for nothing better than Section 31s dirty work???
Well the Federation is far from spotless it gets it's hands dirty just like everyone else. Though in this case there is a difference the Romulans actively attempted to undermine other civilizations with the goal of conquest where the Federation passively stood by in the hopes their enemies would be destroyed.
Passively??? No, the Vulcans are Passive and look upon any of their kind joining the federation with disgust and dismay. The federation is far from passive.. Historically it has actively suppressed any and all attempts by any other race to form political relations with any civilization in a forceful and violent manner extending its olive branch to said civilization only after any other competitors have been dissuaded through use of violence. i wont even bring up the can of worms called the genesis device..
Heh, I didn't even notice the Romulans were added, all I saw was the carnage from the broken features, stealth nerfs, incomplete additions and lag that came with the Rommy's.
Guess thats why the changed the name of the game to Romulan something, i forget.
nah didnt miss it, just wanted to toss out the filthy hippies and jungle boogie comments lol I grew up listening to a lot of that stuff thanks to my ex-hippie parents lol And yes The Who are pretty good
blah
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bigass wall of text that just proves my point.
grats there, you proved me right all on your own. The word count continues to grow the more defensive you get. Trying to dissect my statements doesnt change their accuracy. Your mind is slammed shut and you refuse anything not your own opinion. Dont bother with another essay, we have several pages of proof showing you need to be the victor, need to make others think your way, and need to write bigass long essays to help you feel better about your college education. Im sure "winning" a huge troll fest you basically started with your own intolerance is exactly what you had in mind when you had in mind when you decided to major in philosophy. Money well spent to be sure. /sarcasm Dunno bout vonhellsting but Im done with you. You are in desperate need of a good long hard look in the proverbial mirror.
So you believe that in the future, Cryptic will "allow" the romulans to be a Sovereign faction as are the federation and klingons rather than remain the misidentified ( by most critters you encounter in missions ) sub human ( for lack of a better term ) lackeys to the klingons and federation; fit for nothing better than Section 31s dirty work???
For me, I really hope so, but I seriously doubt it. IMO the amount of work that went into this existing horsedung system of allying with either faction shows they won't undo all that effort.
Passively??? No, the Vulcans are Passive and look upon any of their kind joining the federation with disgust and dismay. The federation is far from passive.. Historically it has actively suppressed any and all attempts by any other race to form political relations with any civilization in a forceful and violent manner extending its olive branch to said civilization only after any other competitors have been dissuaded through use of violence. i wont even bring up the can of worms called the genesis device..
I said in this case I was referring to the incident Feiqa brought up where the Federation stance was to do nothing.;)
On a more serious note I'm not sure what point you're trying make here in regard to my previous statement.
Noting we seem to be drawing differing conclusions from the same conversations. As the centurion asks if they are the stronger shouldn't they attack? With the commander asking why it must always be so. Ending with the desire for destruction. I felt he was a very competent commander. Hence his being sent on so many missions. Where you saw the centurion slapping his commander's weakness down. I saw a soldier concerned for his long time commander, and friend.
Tal'shiar overseeing the military in the face of the enemy episode. The Defector episode where the Admiral is given false information to see if he'll betray the empire. Sela overseeing the Romulan agent in Redemption.
I will have to re-watch face of the enemy. But I do not see a loyalty test from the secret police on an assumed weak admiral as a sign of a short leash for operatives. otherwise when they assigned a romulan technician to the Defiant to run her cloaking device they would have sent an overseer. And squashed her informing the federation crew of the weaknesses of the cloak.
Well the Federation is far from spotless it gets it's hands dirty just like everyone else. Though in this case there is a difference the Romulans actively attempted to undermine other civilizations with the goal of conquest where the Federation passively stood by in the hopes their enemies would be destroyed.
The only example of actively undermining (and that is a loose term) that I am aware of, is Sela backing the Duras sisters in the klingon civil war. To me that was backing one side in the conflict. Once again, the federation chose to let the klingons. Allies at this time. Murder each other in droves, than try and help or back either side.
The whole don't pollute primitive species directive seems to have been turned into a hide behind this when we want to look aloof directive.
And while I admit the (very bad) plan to invade Vulcan with a fleet of vulcan ships loaded with troops is a bit underhanded. (I will dissect this plan in a moment.) The Federation did not know the Romulans were up to anything. The only thing they knew was Spock was on Romulus. So they sent two officers to go get him out. Not see what he is doing, or see if he is alright. Get him out, period. Nice freedoms.
Invasion plan dissection: Lure Spock to Romulus to get him scanned or possibly to deliver a speech so that a small force of 3-5 refitted vulcan ships can take a load of troops to invade a world in the heart of the Federation. Such ships are stolen from mothball yards before the refit. And will be publicly announced to be loaded with romulans.
Meanwhile the Federation cannot see your cloaked ships. You could have sent ships to build a few fortresses in the vulcan system and had over a million troops on standby inside the federation space. But you go with this over the top play with more embellishments than a christmas tree.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Noting we seem to be drawing differing conclusions from the same conversations. As the centurion asks if they are the stronger shouldn't they attack? With the commander asking why it must always be so. Ending with the desire for destruction. I felt he was a very competent commander. Hence his being sent on so many missions. Where you saw the centurion slapping his commander's weakness down. I saw a soldier concerned for his long time commander, and friend.
I suppose it could be seen the other way but it comes off as a rebuttal to me when the centurion said "our portion commander is obedience" even the tone of his voice sounded stern when he said it. Not to say he's not concerned for the Commander but there are lines you just don't cross in certain societies.
I will have to re-watch face of the enemy. But I do not see a loyalty test from the secret police on an assumed weak admiral as a sign of a short leash for operatives. otherwise when they assigned a romulan technician to the Defiant to run her cloaking device they would have sent an overseer. And squashed her informing the federation crew of the weaknesses of the cloak.
It shows everyone is being watched even a ranking officer as high as an Admiral is not above scrutiny of Romulan command.
The only example of actively undermining (and that is a loose term) that I am aware of, is Sela backing the Duras sisters in the klingon civil war. To me that was backing one side in the conflict. Once again, the federation chose to let the klingons. Allies at this time. Murder each other in droves, than try and help or back either side.
The whole don't pollute primitive species directive seems to have been turned into a hide behind this when we want to look aloof directive.
There's also the Enterprise episode where the Romulans use drone ships disguised as other ships in an attempt to break up the proposed alliance of planets.
And while I admit the (very bad) plan to invade Vulcan with a fleet of vulcan ships loaded with troops is a bit underhanded. (I will dissect this plan in a moment.) The Federation did not know the Romulans were up to anything. The only thing they knew was Spock was on Romulus. So they sent two officers to go get him out. Not see what he is doing, or see if he is alright. Get him out, period. Nice freedoms.
Invasion plan dissection: Lure Spock to Romulus to get him scanned or possibly to deliver a speech so that a small force of 3-5 refitted vulcan ships can take a load of troops to invade a world in the heart of the Federation. Such ships are stolen from mothball yards before the refit. And will be publicly announced to be loaded with romulans.
Meanwhile the Federation cannot see your cloaked ships. You could have sent ships to build a few fortresses in the vulcan system and had over a million troops on standby inside the federation space. But you go with this over the top play with more embellishments than a christmas tree.
I believe they were using the Vulcan ships in that episode because it's suggested in the Face of the enemy episode that the federation outposts are equipped with tachyon sensors or listening stations to catch Romulans crossing the border.
I know there have been a lot of bugs on the Romulan "faction" since its release, some that are still a major pain in the TRIBBLE and have had no mention of a fix. So, I'd like to ask Cryptic if they were pressed for time or they just wanted to make a crappy sub-faction. It seems that the only really great thing about the Romulan "Faction" is the ability to command a Warbird. I was so happy to fly my first Mogai. However, everything else seems horribly downgraded from the other two factions, from uniforms (major bugs, can't even get my Romulan to look good without using the default Republic Uniform) to Bridge Officers like Tovan (the Wesley Crusher of the Romulan Republic) being bugged. I really think they should have waited until they could match the Romulans with the Federation and the Klingon Empire. Most importantly, MAKE THEM A SEPARATE FACTION! We don't want to play a sub-faction that relies completely on the others, we want a strong faction that stands on its own!
Please work on this, Cryptic, before the Romulan faction becomes like the Klingons, half the content, half the attention.
As loaded questions much?
The romulan upgrade also provided additional content for the Klingons. Quite literally, this became a new and more interesting game.
Tal'shiar overseeing the military in the face of the enemy episode. The Defector episode where the Admiral is given false information to see if he'll betray the empire. Sela overseeing the Romulan agent in Redemption.
Two cents, all those examples are from over 70 years later than the events of Star Trek VI. While Romulans are longer lived due to their Vulcan blood, or we can suppose they are (this has never been definitively stated on screen), 70 years is a long time, and other cultures in the region saw considerable change in the same period. The Federation culture changed significantly, becoming less militaristic and more pacifistic. The Klingons went through major changes as the retrovirus that had afflicted them was cured and that moved them away from being schemers to the more honorable warriors people saw in TNG.
Who's to say the Romulans did not change too? The culture portrayed in the TOS era Star Trek for the Romulans is so significantly different than that of TNG era that it seems there was a major cultural shift in that period of time. Most Star Trek novels based in the interregnum between the end of the TOS movies and the TNG that explore the Romulans recognize this and try and create some reasons for it.
Also, it should be noted that an Ambassador in effect speaks for the government and can make quasi-binding decisions, especially ones to major powers. While the Senate did not necessarily ok the plan to derail the Khitomer accord, the fact the Romulan ambassador was involved is defacto Romulan backing unless the Senate specifically comes out and disavows the Amabassador's actions. We have no way of knowing if they did or not, though seeing how the conspiracy failed, the Senate almost assuredly did disavow his actions.
In fact, the Ambassador, if he was a clever and acting in his own and the RSE's best interested would have been involved, but also would have never advised his superiors on Romulus what he was involved with, giving them plausible deniability in case it failed, while also enabling him to gain considerable accolades and influence if it succeeded.
That said, none of this is said or indicated by any sources. Evidence that comes from after the events happened, especially after a significant period of time, is not evidence that when the event occurred the actor in question was like that. To use a real life parallel, it be like claiming that the current culture of Japan is such that they would never massacre civilians in Nanking 70 years ago.
I suppose it could be seen the other way but it comes off as a rebuttal to me when the centurion said "our portion commander is obedience" even the tone of his voice sounded stern when he said it. Not to say he's not concerned for the Commander but there are lines you just don't cross in certain societies.
Hmm, just goes to show there was some depth to that conversation.
It shows everyone is being watched even a ranking officer as high as an Admiral is not above scrutiny of Romulan command.
Ranking naval officers in today's navy are not above scrutiny. If one was suspected of selling secrets I would imagine they would lay a sting for him as well.
There's also the Enterprise episode where the Romulans use drone ships disguised as other ships in an attempt to break up the proposed alliance of planets.
A good point and one I do not see a way to refute
I believe they were using the Vulcan ships in that episode because it's suggested in the Face of the enemy episode that the federation outposts are equipped with tachyon sensors or listening stations to catch Romulans crossing the border.
Ah yes, the klingon civil war happened before the would be invasion. However it raises the question. So how did they get the vulcan ships across the border to their side without raising the alarm? If they went around the detection grid, then why not fly cloaked warships around?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Two cents, all those examples are from over 70 years later than the events of Star Trek VI. While Romulans are longer lived due to their Vulcan blood, or we can suppose they are (this has never been definitively stated on screen), 70 years is a long time, and other cultures in the region saw considerable change in the same period.
True enough things could have been different back then but in the Alliance is born we do see the exact same kind of mentality we saw in TNG. Where Senator Vrax is concerned the other senators will have him executed for failure. Given both post and pre star trek 6 Romulans have the same disposition I would wager this cultural behavior was still in effect at the time of the Undiscovered Country.
Ah yes, the klingon civil war happened before the would be invasion. However it raises the question. So how did they get the vulcan ships across the border to their side without raising the alarm? If they went around the detection grid, then why not fly cloaked warships around?
I believe ships of trade and commerce are still allowed to pass the neutral zone in the TNG era. In the birthright episode Worf gets aboard a traders ship to pass the neutral zone. We also see the Corvallen freighter in Face of the enemy which clearly would have to pass the neutral Zone to drop off it's Romulan cargo. Also in startrek 6 if the Romulan border is run anything like the Klingon one we see by the Klingon's reaction to what he thinks is a cargo ship passing the neutral zone that this is a common occurrence.
I believe ships of trade and commerce are still allowed to pass the neutral zone in the TNG era. In the birthright episode Worf gets aboard a traders ship to pass the neutral zone. We also see the Corvallen freighter in Face of the enemy which clearly would have to pass the neutral Zone to drop off it's Romulan cargo. Also in startrek 6 if the Romulan border is run anything like the Klingon one we see by the Klingon's reaction to what he thinks is a cargo ship passing the neutral zone that this is a common occurrence.
So after the Enterprise met a romulan again they opened the border to trade once more. Fair enough. And the Vulcan ships were in cargo bays to keep them from being noticed. Since them crossing the border on their own set off the alarms. Now assuming the detection grid prevents ghosting. IE. following another ship across so it is noticed and not you. It would have to have a means of counting life signs aboard or they could have just sent a few freighters with troops through. And again skipped the theatrics. But then why did the initial crossing not show that there were a bloody lot of romulans on the peace envoy? And would not using Vulcan ships that the romulans should not have anyway be like dressing your ambassadors in clown suits?
This is a very sorry attempt at subterfuge. The 'vulcan' ambassador that turned out to be a romulan agent. That was clever. That was cunning and devious. The invasion was pure theatrics.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
So after the Enterprise met a romulan again they opened the border to trade once more. Fair enough. And the Vulcan ships were in cargo bays to keep them from being noticed. Since them crossing the border on their own set off the alarms. Now assuming the detection grid prevents ghosting. IE. following another ship across so it is noticed and not you. It would have to have a means of counting life signs aboard or they could have just sent a few freighters with troops through. And again skipped the theatrics. But then why did the initial crossing not show that there were a bloody lot of romulans on the peace envoy? And would not using Vulcan ships that the romulans should not have anyway be like dressing your ambassadors in clown suits?
This is a very sorry attempt at subterfuge. The 'vulcan' ambassador that turned out to be a romulan agent. That was clever. That was cunning and devious. The invasion was pure theatrics.
Well my guess is the detection stations aren't very sophisticated in the analysis sense. That kind of equipment would be very expensive to set up all across the vastness of space. They probably only detect ships not what's inside. Yes Sela could have sent freighters across but the problem with that is everyone that crosses is probably already registered to cross. So some unknown ships trying to cross would set off warning bells. Depending on how Starfleet tracks ships it would also look suspicious having a bunch of ship headed toward Vulcan with supplies it had not requested. So she gambled and intended to use the element of surprise to get there. Still a stupid plan but there might have been some merit in it.
Comments
Well.. I could agree and not agree but have you seem the scimitar ... It the most awesome ship in the game...mines is I can tank anything its awesome ship and I love it.. As for feds I have 2 feds love them to. The scimitar has battle cloak meaning it can fire while cloaked .. Not many ships have that O_o...There ships are getting better just give it time Don't judge there ships to soon rofl...
I love the 60s... wish I was born back then my dad was though XD...
On the contrary, the more insulting you and vonhellsting get, the more I'm going to point out that you're engaging in fallacy. I am not pushing one narrow little view. Quite the contrary. I'm opposing one narrow little view. And I don't have to resort to Google or any other internet search engine or website for my vocabulary.
And those durn filthy hippies with their crazy jungle boogie music!! :P lol
Don't be dissin' my Who, man.
The very post to which I was replying shows examples (nor is it the only post in which you have insulted me in this thread, but I'll just take that post):
"the more her essays stretch out tossing in more and more big words... its like protogoth is going to google to try and make herself sound smarter. Sorry hun but all you're doin atm is sounding like an TRIBBLE that cant handle anyone disagreeing with her."
I'm not going to apologize for my intellect, my education, or my vocabulary. Intelligence is not a weakness or a character flaw. I will, however, offer some explanations of terms below.
"you only accept your narrow little view point on this subject and refuse any and all others. Your crusades smack of a need to force others to abandon their opinions and accept yours."
Accusation of dogmatism and a "crusade" of proselytization.
"I am not gonna bother arguing with a vault(that being your closed mind), when all you do is throw insults wrapped in pseudo-intellectial essays that get longer and longer and more and more condescending."
Characterization of my person as having a closed mind and being pseudo-intellectual and condescending.
"Quit trying to make everyone accept yours is the only valid one."
Accusation of dogmatism and a crusade of proselytization.
The Argumentum ad Hominem is a variation on changing the subject, and there are two main types of Argumentum ad Hominem (one of which is best translated as "argument to the human" -- an appeal to the audience usually involving other fallacies such as "appeal to prejudice," "appeal to emotion," etc), and the other as "argument at the human." In particular, that type of Argumentum ad Hominem known as "Abusive ad Hominem" is an example of the latter, an "argument at the human."
Abusive ad Hominem changes the subject from what someone has said to the alleged character of that person, or some other alleged personal feature, without addressing any of the things that person said -- in short, it is an attack on the person (personal insult) -- or an insult directed at his or her position, without any sort of critique of that position (note that an insult directed at the position may not necessarily be fallacious if and only if it is supported by critique of that position, whereas personal insults are always fallacious).
While vonhellsting has attempted this several times now, you usually have at least tried to discuss what I said (in other threads, that is). It's like vonhellsting has looked at my posts only for something with which to disagree and ignored anything that didn't further an attempt to paint me as a villain (kinda like what I've shown has been done by the same person when examining hard canon for things that can be said about the Romulans). These types of insult are known as "taking things out of context" and "Straw Man." Straw Man is another variation on changing the subject (usually distinguished from Argumentum ad Hominem and regarded as a separate fallacy, although it is, technically, a variation of ad Hominem which is both "argument to the human" and "argument at the human"), in this case, from what was actually said to a caricature of what was said, and then mocking the caricature rather than offering any valid critique of the actual content. Worth noting is the fact that failure or refusal to address every point someone has made is not the same thing; we all do this, because not every point needs to be addressed, but when none are addressed, and instead insults are hurled, or a Straw Man is made of someone's position, then yeah, that's fallacy.
If this is also a "big word," allow me to explain: a fallacy is a flawed argument; it may be flawed in the sense of being an incorrect inference form (faulty reasoning, which takes many forms), an attempt to redirect the discussion (changing the subject, which also takes many forms), an omission of evidence relevant to the matter at hand, or a linguistic error (which takes many forms); some fallacies straddle more than one category; fallacies can be intentional or unintentional (and which is not always obvious). The study of correct and incorrect reasoning (the academic discipline of Logic, again, not Vulcan "Logic") was my primary focus as an undergrad majoring in Philosophy, and what I was trained to teach (if this fails to get the point across, I'll be more explicit: I'm an academic, so "big words" come naturally to me, and I also won't apologize for assuming that everyone participating in this discussion is capable of understanding most of them -- or at least using a search engine or hardcopy dictionary to discover their meanings).
Yup they cannot fathom the actions of a commander that has seen over 100 engagements and survived rather well. They wish to charge and attack because they is invulnerable! Sorry sounds like he was given a crew straight out of boot camp and not anyone with experience but the centurion. The one guy that never asked to take over or to break rules giving away their position.
Also a little saddened that no one gave a single reply to my thoughts on the ambassador.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Though even the centurion was disgruntled by the Commanders actions and he had been with him through thick and thin. I will note he wasn't motivated by ambition like the younger Romulan was but that said he pretty much told the Commander off for questioning the order of things.
Sorry was a bit distracted by the drama storm.
I doubt very much the Romulan Ambassador was acting of his own accord Romulan command tended to keep it's operative on a very short leash. The last thing the Romulan government would want was their two enemies allying together so I assume the Romulans were all too happy help the conspirators in any way they could. It's not the first time the Romulans have tried to break up alliances by attempting to turn allies against one another. They did it in Enterprise when the federation was forming and with the Klingons in TNG. That's why I singled him out because I felt the ambassador was not acting alone like the other conspirators but under order to see that this alliance never happened.
Wow at this point I can only assume you're trolling because I asked you to be civil and pointed out several problems I had with your statement but rather than argue your points you seem only interested in taking pot shots at me.:rolleyes:
"I find myself longing for destruction. <sigh> Worry not, like you I am too well trained to allow it to happen." Personally I think he needed a vacation.
Evidence that they kept agents on a shorter leash than the federation or the Klingons?
Oh and another thought on the let our enemies tear each other apart line.
The Cardassians through the Obsidian order, and the Romulans through the Tal Shi'ar, launch a decapitation strike. The noble federation response? "Let them, it might work." Pitting two sides against one another while you stand back to mop up the rest is not just a romulan tactic.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
On a more serious note I'm not sure what point you're trying make here in regard to my previous statement.
Tal'shiar overseeing the military in the face of the enemy episode. The Defector episode where the Admiral is given false information to see if he'll betray the empire. Sela overseeing the Romulan agent in Redemption.
Well the Federation is far from spotless it gets it's hands dirty just like everyone else. Though in this case there is a difference the Romulans actively attempted to undermine other civilizations with the goal of conquest where the Federation passively stood by in the hopes their enemies would be destroyed.
Yes and No
Yes in the fact they had been fleshed out a whole tutorial story arc had been made and the romulan content was in many ways far ahead of the KDF and Feds.
No as far as the UI is still buggy the tailor is still bugged the list goes on and on.
Sure it could use a call to the orkin man to fumigate LoR for bugs but as most the case with MMOs its a work in progress its still evolving still changing still growing.
So for now a few bugs is alright with me im just glad for having a whole new sub faction to play/
So you believe that in the future, Cryptic will "allow" the romulans to be a Sovereign faction as are the federation and klingons rather than remain the misidentified ( by most critters you encounter in missions ) sub human ( for lack of a better term ) lackeys to the klingons and federation; fit for nothing better than Section 31s dirty work???
Passively??? No, the Vulcans are Passive and look upon any of their kind joining the federation with disgust and dismay. The federation is far from passive.. Historically it has actively suppressed any and all attempts by any other race to form political relations with any civilization in a forceful and violent manner extending its olive branch to said civilization only after any other competitors have been dissuaded through use of violence. i wont even bring up the can of worms called the genesis device..
Guess thats why the changed the name of the game to Romulan something, i forget.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
grats there, you proved me right all on your own. The word count continues to grow the more defensive you get. Trying to dissect my statements doesnt change their accuracy. Your mind is slammed shut and you refuse anything not your own opinion. Dont bother with another essay, we have several pages of proof showing you need to be the victor, need to make others think your way, and need to write bigass long essays to help you feel better about your college education. Im sure "winning" a huge troll fest you basically started with your own intolerance is exactly what you had in mind when you had in mind when you decided to major in philosophy. Money well spent to be sure. /sarcasm Dunno bout vonhellsting but Im done with you. You are in desperate need of a good long hard look in the proverbial mirror.
For me, I really hope so, but I seriously doubt it. IMO the amount of work that went into this existing horsedung system of allying with either faction shows they won't undo all that effort.
I said in this case I was referring to the incident Feiqa brought up where the Federation stance was to do nothing.;)
Noting we seem to be drawing differing conclusions from the same conversations. As the centurion asks if they are the stronger shouldn't they attack? With the commander asking why it must always be so. Ending with the desire for destruction. I felt he was a very competent commander. Hence his being sent on so many missions. Where you saw the centurion slapping his commander's weakness down. I saw a soldier concerned for his long time commander, and friend.
I will have to re-watch face of the enemy. But I do not see a loyalty test from the secret police on an assumed weak admiral as a sign of a short leash for operatives. otherwise when they assigned a romulan technician to the Defiant to run her cloaking device they would have sent an overseer. And squashed her informing the federation crew of the weaknesses of the cloak.
The only example of actively undermining (and that is a loose term) that I am aware of, is Sela backing the Duras sisters in the klingon civil war. To me that was backing one side in the conflict. Once again, the federation chose to let the klingons. Allies at this time. Murder each other in droves, than try and help or back either side.
The whole don't pollute primitive species directive seems to have been turned into a hide behind this when we want to look aloof directive.
And while I admit the (very bad) plan to invade Vulcan with a fleet of vulcan ships loaded with troops is a bit underhanded. (I will dissect this plan in a moment.) The Federation did not know the Romulans were up to anything. The only thing they knew was Spock was on Romulus. So they sent two officers to go get him out. Not see what he is doing, or see if he is alright. Get him out, period. Nice freedoms.
Invasion plan dissection: Lure Spock to Romulus to get him scanned or possibly to deliver a speech so that a small force of 3-5 refitted vulcan ships can take a load of troops to invade a world in the heart of the Federation. Such ships are stolen from mothball yards before the refit. And will be publicly announced to be loaded with romulans.
Meanwhile the Federation cannot see your cloaked ships. You could have sent ships to build a few fortresses in the vulcan system and had over a million troops on standby inside the federation space. But you go with this over the top play with more embellishments than a christmas tree.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I suppose it could be seen the other way but it comes off as a rebuttal to me when the centurion said "our portion commander is obedience" even the tone of his voice sounded stern when he said it. Not to say he's not concerned for the Commander but there are lines you just don't cross in certain societies.
It shows everyone is being watched even a ranking officer as high as an Admiral is not above scrutiny of Romulan command.
There's also the Enterprise episode where the Romulans use drone ships disguised as other ships in an attempt to break up the proposed alliance of planets.
I believe they were using the Vulcan ships in that episode because it's suggested in the Face of the enemy episode that the federation outposts are equipped with tachyon sensors or listening stations to catch Romulans crossing the border.
As loaded questions much?
The romulan upgrade also provided additional content for the Klingons. Quite literally, this became a new and more interesting game.
Two cents, all those examples are from over 70 years later than the events of Star Trek VI. While Romulans are longer lived due to their Vulcan blood, or we can suppose they are (this has never been definitively stated on screen), 70 years is a long time, and other cultures in the region saw considerable change in the same period. The Federation culture changed significantly, becoming less militaristic and more pacifistic. The Klingons went through major changes as the retrovirus that had afflicted them was cured and that moved them away from being schemers to the more honorable warriors people saw in TNG.
Who's to say the Romulans did not change too? The culture portrayed in the TOS era Star Trek for the Romulans is so significantly different than that of TNG era that it seems there was a major cultural shift in that period of time. Most Star Trek novels based in the interregnum between the end of the TOS movies and the TNG that explore the Romulans recognize this and try and create some reasons for it.
Also, it should be noted that an Ambassador in effect speaks for the government and can make quasi-binding decisions, especially ones to major powers. While the Senate did not necessarily ok the plan to derail the Khitomer accord, the fact the Romulan ambassador was involved is defacto Romulan backing unless the Senate specifically comes out and disavows the Amabassador's actions. We have no way of knowing if they did or not, though seeing how the conspiracy failed, the Senate almost assuredly did disavow his actions.
In fact, the Ambassador, if he was a clever and acting in his own and the RSE's best interested would have been involved, but also would have never advised his superiors on Romulus what he was involved with, giving them plausible deniability in case it failed, while also enabling him to gain considerable accolades and influence if it succeeded.
That said, none of this is said or indicated by any sources. Evidence that comes from after the events happened, especially after a significant period of time, is not evidence that when the event occurred the actor in question was like that. To use a real life parallel, it be like claiming that the current culture of Japan is such that they would never massacre civilians in Nanking 70 years ago.
Hmm, just goes to show there was some depth to that conversation.
Ranking naval officers in today's navy are not above scrutiny. If one was suspected of selling secrets I would imagine they would lay a sting for him as well.
A good point and one I do not see a way to refute
Ah yes, the klingon civil war happened before the would be invasion. However it raises the question. So how did they get the vulcan ships across the border to their side without raising the alarm? If they went around the detection grid, then why not fly cloaked warships around?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
True enough things could have been different back then but in the Alliance is born we do see the exact same kind of mentality we saw in TNG. Where Senator Vrax is concerned the other senators will have him executed for failure. Given both post and pre star trek 6 Romulans have the same disposition I would wager this cultural behavior was still in effect at the time of the Undiscovered Country.
I believe ships of trade and commerce are still allowed to pass the neutral zone in the TNG era. In the birthright episode Worf gets aboard a traders ship to pass the neutral zone. We also see the Corvallen freighter in Face of the enemy which clearly would have to pass the neutral Zone to drop off it's Romulan cargo. Also in startrek 6 if the Romulan border is run anything like the Klingon one we see by the Klingon's reaction to what he thinks is a cargo ship passing the neutral zone that this is a common occurrence.
So after the Enterprise met a romulan again they opened the border to trade once more. Fair enough. And the Vulcan ships were in cargo bays to keep them from being noticed. Since them crossing the border on their own set off the alarms. Now assuming the detection grid prevents ghosting. IE. following another ship across so it is noticed and not you. It would have to have a means of counting life signs aboard or they could have just sent a few freighters with troops through. And again skipped the theatrics. But then why did the initial crossing not show that there were a bloody lot of romulans on the peace envoy? And would not using Vulcan ships that the romulans should not have anyway be like dressing your ambassadors in clown suits?
This is a very sorry attempt at subterfuge. The 'vulcan' ambassador that turned out to be a romulan agent. That was clever. That was cunning and devious. The invasion was pure theatrics.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Well my guess is the detection stations aren't very sophisticated in the analysis sense. That kind of equipment would be very expensive to set up all across the vastness of space. They probably only detect ships not what's inside. Yes Sela could have sent freighters across but the problem with that is everyone that crosses is probably already registered to cross. So some unknown ships trying to cross would set off warning bells. Depending on how Starfleet tracks ships it would also look suspicious having a bunch of ship headed toward Vulcan with supplies it had not requested. So she gambled and intended to use the element of surprise to get there. Still a stupid plan but there might have been some merit in it.